I've had cookie clicker open every time I'm on my computer since the summer. After 3126 hours of real world time with the game open and 21 trillion cps, I decided to ascend and use my heavenly chips to earn cookies even faster. With an additional 387% cps on top of the normal game multipliers, I'm now on 124.165 trillion cps in a mere 307 hours. It truly is incredible how such a basic game attracts more engagement than most "triple A" games. It has mastered the basic reward and effort balance that is behind why people enjoy playing games in the first place.
The state of flow is a wonderful thing: your'e pinky finger has gone numb and unbendable, you've forgotten the feeling of rage, and blinking is done with great reluctance, but you'll still press that same perfect sequence of keys hundreds of times in a row, trying to find the optimal way to guide that little meaty cube through all those saw blades.
I love this video. I've always hated Skinner Box mechanics, and I've always been good at realizing when I'm in them, but before this video it was a vague concept and I couldn't really pinpoint what the quality was. So I would have to spend a little while in the box before I put the game down feeling burnt but not really knowing why. I saw this video when it first came out on the escapist, and as soon as it defined this quality something clicked and a bunch of games that I disliked for what I thought were unrelated reasons suddenly shared this trait. As soon as it had a name I've pretty much been able to identify a Skinner Box mechanic immediately. It may have made me a bit more cynical, because now it's harder for a game to to trick me into thinking I'm having fun, but it's also helped me value my time more and has likely spared me countless hours of my life I would have wished I spent doing something more productive. So thank you for that.
I tend to think of Dance Dance Revolution as an example of flow. You reach a point where you are simply doing the actions and steps so fast that you're not thinking through them.
Entering flow state is one of the best things only games can provide without requiring counteless months of dedication and training. And it feels so good XD
This is one of EC's most useful episodes, only becoming more relevant as game publishers invest more and more in design choices and economies designed to isolate and prey on these kinds of psychological weaknesses.
As a psych student, this is such a great explanation! Also applies to anything in life, we tend to get stuck in Skinner Boxes wherever we go. Moving beyond that is the real deal. Super cool xxx
Wes Alm this is how pretty much all games are made. I think the whole skinner's box theory has been interpreted to represent only one aspect of gaming when in reality if the game provides some type of behavior reinforcement it falls in line with operant conditioning.
I'm an aspiring game developer, and am always looking for videos like yours to give good advice on different ways of creating games. I will probably end up watching this whole series, and appreciate the time you take to make them!
I have also found just the constant rhythmic "plonk" of breaking stone blocks sort of cathartic, and it sort of does the Skinner's box thing when you find an ore vein, 400+ blocks of stone mined to find a dozen blocks of iron and a diamond. That diamond makes the time taken totally worth it, even if a creeper blows you up right after finding it.
I was playing Skyrim while listening to this, and I find it awesome how accurately Daniel was describing my mental state at that point in the video (focused eyes, slower breathing, deep immersion in a vast and explorable RPG world etc.). I find his thoughts on this matter to be very precise and insightful. Thanks, Dan! :)
+McButtz Or Clicker Hero's to an extent. Played two hours of the game, realised what I was doing, stopped playing and watched this video to help myself not play it again.
And they would have gotten away with it too, if it hadn't been for that pesky atmosphere... or that pesky story... or that pesky immersion-breaking instance transition, etc.
As I'm typing this, the whole "eyes go into soft focus, breathing slows, going into a Zen-like state" is rather applicable as I watch/listen to these videos whilst downloading new versions of mods for Minecraft 1.6.4 & 1.7.2! XD Whilst each episode is usually short, a nice long playlist is nearly perfect relaxation material as the aural stimulation pulls focus and processing from certain parts of my brain, leaving the rest of my consciousness to do things such as this multitasking I'm doing now. One small downside to such a good show and a long playlist - your voice is so soothing it's almost enough to lull me to sleep once I'm past 16 hours of consciousness (currently running around 20 hours since I woke up yesterday, I think) and running of caffeine fumes. >.
I bet some developers use conditioning without even realizing it. They might think that they are only taking notes from other games. This would be the equivalent if me sampling a song, and that song used a melody from a much older song. I guess it pays to do your homework. Very thought provoking video. Thanks for posting it.
Skinner's Box is exactly why I quit these kinds of games a couple of years back. I called it 'those games that TELL me what to do, instead of giving me free will', i.e. 'wait 20mins before you can attack again'. If I play a game now and I feel the game 'orders' me to do something 'in order to open that door, you need to find the 5 pieces, bring them to me so I can build you the key', I stop. It takes no skill to play those games. Brilliant video EC PS By 'removing those games from my backlog, I have trimmed 600 games down to 85' *sigh*
Back when guitar hero was popular I was really into it and got to where i was playing expert for high scores instead of just seeing if it was possible for me to pass a song. I remember during sessions when i was playing really well i would go into that trance state you talked about in the video, actually makes me want to try the new guitar hero and see if i can get that trance again. It was very relaxing
Mental Stimulation is one of the most attractive parts of a game for me, which is why Braid is one of my favorite games. Completing a difficult puzzle unaided satisfied me immensely, despite the fact that I may have spent upwards of thirty minutes trying to solve it.
Wonderful vis, thanks for sharing! I have a request: would you please consider making a vid about more *Psychological Tricks in Game Design*, explaining more of this evil strategies besides Skinner Boxes, like Daily Rewards, Resource Decay, Loss Aversion and others, giving examples of games that do this? I'd like a complete video explaning ALL the addiction strategies used by devs. Thanks! ^_^
I'd say a lot of real time rpgs, especially ones that have the element of mastery on their side, also have a hint of flow. As you get better at the games, you start chaining button presses and commands together without even thinking about it. Of course, because they're not generally built around this feeling, it tends to stop pretty quickly. Whenever you need to use an item, or when there's a break in the pattern
Interestingly I had a training recently (I work in mental health) on something very much like that "zen state" you talk about. People look for ways to achieve that state in life and work as well and if we help them foster that, their mental health dramatically improves. One of the main barriers to achieving that state is emotional dysregulation, which often is facilitated by negative internal dialogue and/or preoccupation with past or future events (that we have no control over in the present). I can see how a video game would make achieving that "zen state" significantly easier as some of those barriers I mentioned are naturally eliminated.
In fact, I'd be very interested in getting a list of games that you feel help people achieve the "zen state." We run trauma therapy groups and we tend to have much more success with girls than boys, and I believe it is due to the types of interventions we use. If I could "prescribe" certain video games for the boys to play as part of therapy (achieving zen would be key to this) it might help us bridge that treatment gap.
Eric Cavey In my case, the game I could reach that state the most consistently was Navy Field, a multiplayer WW2 naval conflict game. It's hard to explain or find a reason why, as usually PvP engagements are more dynamic and tend to need more focused active attention to play, but in this case, I think the mix of complex controls (qweasdzxcrtyfv[spacebar][control][shift],.l + mouse plus a couple of numbers were all used constantly to control direction, angle, convergence and fire of the turrets, speed of the ship, selection of front/rear/secondary armament, control of aircraft groups, among others) and the experience that let me internalize those complex controls to use them instinctively were the golden key to archieve that state. EC called it Kinesthetic Projection in the Kinect Disconnect episode, that one might help to clear what I tried to explain that happened to me. So, IMHO, internalized complex controls that immerse you into the game, coupled with a game that piques the interest of the patient might be a step in the right direction. I'm 99% sure there's no one-size-fits-all game that can produce that effect, and it's more of a case by case research. If you are working on the mental health of the patient, you might be already half way there, by getting to know them you can start trying possible candidates to archieve that state.
Gran Gurbo thabks for the input! I believe you are correct in needing to find what games work for each individual. The trouble I'm having is that the boys just tend to want to play games they like and have trouble understanding what we are trying to accomplish. I will continue lookigninto though as it seems promising.
Eric Cavey It is almost definitely worth noting what those games that they like are, since that definitely contributes to how well the game can actually achieve that state. I've also found that such a state seems to be more common in games that I've gotten to be good at, which does of course mean that almost no game can do this from the start. If achieving such a state quickly is important, trying with their existing library of games can definitely help. That said, outside of their existing library, games with an easier learning curve will definitely be more capable of achieving such a state sooner. Intuitive, and perhaps more importantly, responsive controls are a must, of course, as is discussed in EC's Kinect Disconnect episode. Such a state cannot be achieved if you're struggling with the controls. It should be noted though, that a game need not be in itself simple in order to achieve this state, as I have achieved such a state while playing strategy games, Advance Wars in particular.
Super hexagon is one that i get to, i personally name it a game that can actually extend a half hour to being like a hour because i'm /that/ into it, it has a bit of a hard start but i think you should try it out with them
I LOVE that you used a FF Tactics clip 4:38. No regrets in putting hours and hours into that game, definitely my fave all-time (followed by MGS); but it does scare me thinking about how many hours I've put into games overall haha
Great new episode!!! Your format is really "engaging" :) I think the problem with a lot of RPG's is that they get really repetitive... also sometimes in a game you'll find that if you don't use a guide to allocate for certain skills over others then you get half-way through and then realize you're totally screwed for the rest of it. My favorite game did this to me, but by the time it really mattered the story was over. It's DragonQuest 8 for the PS2... this NEEDS to be a movie, or mini-series.
I truly do like your work and insight. I feel exceedingly fortunate that I have recently been presented with an opportunity to return to game development, this time by working on the office side of a AAA game... with some potential for input on creative content. I say this not to lift myself up, but to give you the context of what comes next. I fully intend to use what voice I have to speak THIS truth to the lead designers. While this may not be a universally true statement for all developers, I want for any project that I work on to be the best that it can possibly be, and I do not consider profitability to be a measurement of quality. The points that you have made in this (and other) video(s) resonates strongly with me. I only hope that I can keep them in mind as I my tiny voice is added to the process. Thank you.
From the explanation you gave of Skinner's box, could levelling up through an experience system be considered a skinner box? After all, you're grinding, doing a single, monotonous thing over and over until, DING, you get a sudden, positive reaction. This is why people get so addicted to grinding dungeons and such, isn't it?
+Cowfaic'd Realm Depends on the game and how it's progression system is built. If grinding is made an inferior method of progressing your character, you are getting rewarded for not grinding, but rather progressing the game itself and solving problems. Or at least that's how I'm seeing it right now.
Cowfaic'd Realm Well, I don't think it is necessarily 'based' on it, but has an unfortunate tendency to be used as such. Many games feature an xp-based leveling system, but it's implemented and used in such a way that it avoids the skinner effect. Take, for instance, the newer Fallout games. I've played those games for longer than I care to admit, but I don't think I ever played the game for the purpose of, or really ever got any enjoyment out of, leveling up. And I think what does it, at least for me, is that the progression is not fast enough. The things that grant xp are too diverse and far between for you to ever really form this mental connection of action+repetition=reward. I don't play a lot of games (I tend to stick to a single game for long periods of time), but the only game I remember having this effect on me (besides those awful inserttheme-clicker browser games) was Demon's Souls when I first played it. One of the levels was particularly good for farming xp, so I'd run through it repeatedly to level up. There, the level was short enough and yielded enough xp for this effect to happen. So in the end, I don't think such a system is inherently a skinner box, but you can rather easily turn it into one. The setup of the box has to be rigid and focused enough for you to make that mental connection.
+Cowfaic'd Realm Level up systems in general are the archetypical skinner box. That isn't a "could this be", that's a "everybody who has heard of a skinner box visualises a leveling system via XP".
This video has helped me to see a fundamental flaw in my understanding of how people respond to games. I've seen people fall prey to Skinner's theorems put into practice but it has never worked on me. I've only ever sunk a lot of time into a game if I actually enjoyed it, and I've never regretted all that time spent. So it isn't surprising therefore, when I was frustrated over my inability to understand why other people were so keen on playing games that, as far as I could tell, they can't actually be enjoying. This makes it all so much clearer, thanks! I have another question now...why am I different? I'm not trying to toot my horn here, I'm genuinely curious. Are there others like me? There have to be, I think. How do I tell them apart? Is there simply two extremes, or a dithered scale spreading gradually from one side to the other? And how does this apply to game theory? Moreover, how can I use this to my advantage when seeking out a game I will find fulfilling, and not just drop by the wayside when I notice that it's full of zombie players and it isn't any fun?
+TheReaverOfDarkness "I have another question now...why am I different?" Man i've been asking that question ever since everyone here could afford a good and decent mobile phones and tablets, then got addicted to mobile garbage like candy crush saga, Clash of Clans, and some other games that would make you do repetitive things, just because that's the gameplay (but i would give CoC a break since it adds cool new feature that you would get if you play it long enough, but it still pretty shallow in terms of being a strategy game). "Are there others like me?" Well, there are quite a lot of people out there that doesn't fall prey to Skinner's theorems, and those people (like me) are usually gamers that play a lot of old games that have redeemable content, and guinely rewards us if we actually play the game, & also games that has maximum amount of player involvement. "How do I tell them apart?" Usually they are people in the minority, when it comes to liking games, and only like games that are "REALLY" set itself apart from all the endless recycling and non-innovative games that got released yearly (and they hate CoD for it being the same every year sure). " Is there simply two extremes, or a dithered scale spreading gradually from one side to the other?" i don't know what you're saying, but if you mean that there's only pure casual and pure hardcore gamers that exist in the industry, then you're not "exactly" right, i mean, after the mobile market got its fair share of hardware evolution, coupled with cheaper hardware, the casual market take it's place in the heart of the industry (simply because they got tons of money in the mobile market) and the people that were never involve in the industry (like those that can't afford or doesn't want to spend hours sitting on a couch or chair just to get the digital entertaintment that their childrens have a luxury of) can now experience it themself without shelling out hundreds of dollars of things that you can't do anything about because of how busy you are. "how can I use this to my advantage when seeking out a game I will find fulfilling, and not just drop by the wayside when I notice that it's full of zombie players and it isn't any fun?" well, try to find a demo for said game, if you like it, then you'll enjoy the entirerity of the game (pretty damn simple right?) but when it comes to MP games, you just have to look for people that aren't just brainless zombies (average people that is new (been gaming since 2012 and such) to the industry) and listen to their opinion and see if that's the game for you, and only buy it, if the developers being honest with their game(s). And honestly i think i'm the most different person on the province i'm living in, (Bali, Indonesia) just because i know a lot about gaming, and that the industry is actually rapturing from within itself because of the greed,lazyness,lies, & unfairness that the AAA developers have showed us year, after year, after year, with it be broken console ports, (AC Unity, Arkham Knight Etc.) gutted DLCs and expansions, (Destiny much....) and other things that just not the way the game was showed at E3, (lots o' example like Sports games, Watch dogs, Etc.) & with that i personnaly think that the industry need another crash just so that it would fix itself and that developers shouldn't be allowed to get away from yearly rehasses, gutted base content, games that far from publicly playable state, and lies that would just be blown by the wind and never to be bringed up again...... I'm also 15 years old, in case you're wondering :)
I'ma Rob'Oat One of my biggest problems (everyone's problem, really) is that not only are the crap games more profitable, they are so much more profitable that every game company prioritizing profit will purposely release crap games. No matter how much crap they release, and no matter how many crappy games people play and learn to hate, they keep coming back and paying for new crap. It makes me sick just watching it.
TheReaverOfDarkness Well, that's casual filth for you :P but jokes aside, they are the real problem with this industry, i mean like, why the hell would they want to spend their money on shallow uninteresting garbage of a game when they could just do a little research and get a very high quality ones, that actually deserve more of the praising than the other casual filth says? 1 answer: Because they don't know "Quality" and what it means to play a game that have them, hell even all of my classmates that play mobile garbage all the time at school said that they would prefer play a game that's "easily rewarding", and "easy to get into", and damn even "repetitive games that you only play cuz everyone else plays it (high solidarity there, i give 'em that)". But even if you give them a "worthwhile" games to play and even the ones with the essence of "Quality" being written all over it, they would still be in a denial, because can't "see" or even "feel" the "Quality" in those games because to them, it's all just a "hard and confusing games" hell even games that are my favorite, is the games that were released in the ps 2 era, like Persona 4, Black, MK: Shaolin Monks, and Crash Mind Over Mutant, Bournout 3: Takedown and i can see and feel the quality of those games, because you know what? Because they're made for a very simple reason : They are made so that people would "enjoy" it "have fun" in it and most importantly "to bring profit" and honestly, if you manage to make a fun games where players could just grind all the way through and freaking rage because of how HC it is, damn you would even be forgiven if you make good enough reward and be %100 fair to your player (RNG is bullshit) and i'm spesifictly talking about God Hand. Yes the one that IGNorant put to shame with it being too hard (hell they even game Alien: Isolation a freaking 6!!!) and gave it an unfair score of 3!!?, shit man, they even say that the game have an "awful" camera angle and that it make the game sucks, but man when you got used to it (and believe me, if you really try to play the game for about halfway through) you'll become a badass because the angle of the camera was pitch perfect, also you can littelary dodge every single damn attacks thrown at you, i mean know that there's no "block" move but man you can dodge real good if you have the hang of it. So back to the topic with: "One of my biggest problems (everyone's problem, really) is that not only are the crap games more profitable, they are so much more profitable that every game company prioritizing profit will purposely release crap games" Ok so the reason as of why they prefer garbages like: -Destiny (while we prefer Borderlands 1 & 2) -CoD (while we prefer Battlefield 3 & 4) -Shovelwares (like most of every game that is ever released on mobile) Is because like i said, they don't know "Quality" also because that they prefer an "easier" game that they could just play without any "special" skill to "enjoy" (man they said that to me all the time, but when i ask them "but dude, what the hell do you call a 360 no scope then?" and they replied with "well it's a different kind of skill that ONLY TRUE GAMERS HAS AND BRAINLESS GAMERS CAN'T APRECIATE" i mean like that's what he littelary said to me (i mean somewhere on youtube in a freaky youtube 360 degree no scope video). and the thing about companies deliberately releasing broken unfinished scrapped games, is because they want to "maximize" profit because they are so damn jealous with those devs on the mobile market that makes tons of money, and hoping to salvage what little "sheepy" fanboys they have left and drain them off their cash. and why are crappy games more profitable well here's 3 simple sentences: 1.The amount of reward the game gave you for equal the amount of effort that you do, and in casual filth case.... well.... that's very low on the effort side. 2.The accessibility of said game, and how hard it is to get the heart of the action, and in their case... this is also has to be very low for them to "enjoy" (hence, why IGNorance gave God Hand a 3, and Alien:Isolation a 6) 3.Again they don't know "Quality" (y'know games that actually make you work for the reward, instead of bathing you with it for the simplest of things that you do). there's my long explanation along with the wight that i kept for years now, hope you understand what i'm saying.
I'ma Rob'Oat I understand why they want a quick play game, it makes sense because they never get very invested in a game. If they play the same game for many hours, usually the main reason is that they're really bored and don't know a lot of other titles. These are the people who consider all that time spent gaming to be a waste of one's life--and they're normal. What I don't understand is their willingness to sink so much money into simple games that are merely staving off boredom. I see a lot of these people playing these games on the bus, and they'll spend $20 on one bus ride for some time to play a freemium game. My guess is they don't even realize how much they're spending on it, or if they do, there is some disconnect as to how each small microtransaction adds up. Maybe our schools need to teach people about microtransactions. Simple stuff like how a daily purchase of the same small thing adds up, and you need to consider minor differences in how many cents it costs when you would ignore that with a major purchase. Perhaps people would start to realize how expensive each microtransaction is when they learn to consider how much use they'll get from it.
TheReaverOfDarkness Well, those are the people that was new to the game industry, so ofc they don't know many of the good titles that come out just a few years prior when they joined the industry. Other than that i doesn't really know, as of why they're willing to give a mobile garbage their hard-earned money (aside from Minecraft ofc, being able to play it on the go, feels more luxury to me more than a convenient cashgrab), just to get something that doesn't really worth to "spend $20 on one bus ride for some time to play a freemium game", but my theory is, maybe they saw something in said game and their brain be all like: "Damn, that dude got better stuff than mine in this game, maybe if i cash it out a "little" bit i'll be happy". But we both know how it ended up being just a well of desperation to get the most out of the game, while spending those "tiny little" extra dollars for...... let's say "Instant energy refill (well this is convenient.....)". Then the next day ofc they went to do it again, since remember, it just like... what?, $2?, damn that's super cheap easier compare to waiting over 12 minutes, just to that damn last bit of points before the event goes out, and "suffer" the feeling of being left behind in the leaderboard and "not(?)" getting that sick armor that all the youtube reviewers, is hyping lately. Then they keep doing it (spending cash on a bunch of "1's and 0's", no seriously, it's literally just bits of "1's and 0's"), day by day.... week by week.... and eventually they bored of it (or god forbid... "doesn't"...) after a few month to cash it out on something else. But what happened to all of those money they spend?, well of course all of them goes the "cashwhores" bank account, and with all the daily: "Damn not enough energy, and it's just a few more to go!" (let's say that the devs are a bunch of jackasses, and give you a tiny bit of max energy for the whole game (unless you cash it out big time ofc). And "Man, *sigh*, this grinding is super boring *click on the material screen* 4 iron more to go.... *3 minutes later....* screw it, i'll just get it from the store *shell out $8 for the same sword, but with higher stats from the store*. I don't see the reason why they won't change their business practices. Also know that those casual gamers are single and short minded, so ofc they won't see the numbers adding up, because that's how their mind works, and compare to ours, we are a lot smarter (obviously), just because we know, and without thinking (well too much anyway), what this will become eventually. And we can see the developers greed just by looking at this: www.dropbox.com/s/bsy6145w97gdwtb/Oh%20My%20Gawd.....jpg?dl=0 And honestly, of all the people that dare to say that "those are optional, you can get everything without paying anything more in the game", hundreds more will make a shout-out, and boycott the horrendous, living being that make this abomination, that dare to charge, a full premium priced AAA game, and still litter it with all the too obvious microtransactions, bugs and glitches, awful console port, and hype it like never before seen in the developers history. "Maybe our schools need to teach people about microtransactions. Simple stuff like how a daily purchase of the same small thing adds up, and you need to consider minor differences in how many cents it costs when you would ignore that with a major purchase. Perhaps people would start to realize how expensive each microtransaction is when they learn to consider how much use they'll get from it." This is a genius idea,but dude, they can't actually "teach" us (or them for that matter) about microtransactions, because it's not really something a school would teach, but wait, don't they already teach us that exact same thing in... "economy"?. And in all honesty i don't think it'll make any difference, since all of those people are living in the present, not the future, so they are unlikely to think that far ahead, just because they could save a lot more in the long run, doesn't mean that they will stop spending a little bit of their money every once in a while on a mobile garbage, it's just how a lot of peoples (except for some of us) mind works.
Oddly enough the Need for Speed series from Underground to maybe Carbon gets me in the kind of trance where I have no idea what I'm doing anymore. I'm not really focusing on anything and I just win races. I guess now I know why.
Everything you said is true, fully logical and can not be proven wrong. This was amazing and I could see everything you mentioned actually play out exactly like u said in real life.
I've been spending 3 years trying to make myself have the mindset of "Hey, wait a minute. I can just save this for tomorrow, then I both get to do this tomorrow and a good night's sleep". And just now am I starting to actually manage it. This skinner box "Just 1 more" concept is serious business, it's extremely hard to fight back!
I have this with minecraft,"i just need to finish the outer walls of this giant castle" and it usually takes me 4 hours and i just feel relieved that it's over at the end
Hey um.... would Destiny classify as a "Skinner Box" type game? Because, i've been trying to get the Vex Mythoclast for about 2 months now. I have a problem, because I dream of this gun every night, and I'm ALWAYS thinking about it. I just want to know if I should stop or not.
I think it is just an internal problem you have :) Where does the need of this arise from. You played too long to get it and you couldn't? You play with your friends and everyone has got it and you haven't? What is it that you want to accomplish? Do you want the power of the weapon or the cosmetics or just the prestige that it brings, or are you just addicted to the RNG? It is for you to figure out. Don't forget, every action you do or don't has a meaning whether you analyse it or not depends on you wanting to expand on your inner self :) Hope I was able to help.
Yes Destiny is a skinner box type game. All random loot based games are using the skinner box. But a lot of them don't really completely on the skinner box so they are still fun to play. The skinner box is what keeps you hooked though. Whether you should stop or not though depends on if you are still having fun playing Destiny in between loot drops. You are essentially pressing a button over and over again hoping to get a reward. It's not really that big of an issue if you are just doing the raid once a week to get the mythoclast. Everything in Destiny uses the skinner box. Running strikes over and over to try and get good gear. Constantly doing bounties. Even Xur. I still make sure to sign in every week to see if he has good items and then that usually gets me into doing bounties and strikes to try to get good drops. You will probably lose interest in Destiny as soon as you get the mythoclast.
Destiny is the epitome of the Skinner Box. It is, in all genuiness, a poorly designed, really "not fun" game, but everyone I know who plays it justifies their actions with "but I wanted that other gun that in no way effects gameplay."
6:02 That really makes me think about how I play Guitar Hero. It's impossible to translate the colored notes into words quick enough to play, but at a certain point, I began to just know how to hit the notes right. It is a cool experience to play on expert.
I've never usually been interested in Skinner Box games for longer than a week or two. Maybe its because only getting periodical rewards aren't enough for my brain, and it needs something in the downtime as well. Not sure.
First game that comes to mind when you mentioned Flow was Geometry wars. Most of my high scores were set not while i was focusing, but when i was just lost and doing reflexively, not thinking about anything. No thoughts, just actions. It's why i love Geometry Wars so much. Yeah sure you're focused at first, but when you pass that 100k point mark, you start losing yourself and just...playing.
I'd take a casino where I win all the time over a regular casino. It's just a horrible business strategy and you'll go bankrupt really quickly. And with win I mean earning more than you spend.
I got lost in the game Dragon Age: Origins. Was my first type of such a game and until today, years later I still love it and want to play again. So nostalgic.
It's funny watching this video about conditioning. Because I recall a late night last night when my only thought was "just one more video." Well done mate.
Zen state: When playing Splatoon and my eyes glaze over. My brother watches in shock as I never die, take down their entire team multiple times, and charge in to a victory. Mindlessly playing until the results page, then starting the whole thing over again. And over again. Splatoon is one of my most zen games, mostly due to the fact that I play it obscenely often. Whenever I need stress relief, haha
Jake Wood Never played Skyrim, but I love Cave Story. You gradually improve your flow until you're rinsing through enemies that were menacing before... it feels awesome.
Jake Wood I feel I'm under a minority, I've played Cave Story multiple times when I moved to different computers, but I never really got to seeing it as the Messiah that people say it is.
6:06, So what's happening to me when I'm so deeply immersed into a song on expert while playing Guitar Hero, where I randomly become aware of my motor skills in a way that it messes you up? You could be on an amazing streak, and then something out of seemingly nowhere just makes you aware of everything around you, and makes it seem like time itself slows, just to show you your flawed movement?
Well there's the explanation right there, it's the incentive of a future project (created by you) that pushes you to the "one more level" phase and not just the achievements you get for completing goals.
That's racing games in general, ever played a racing simulator for hours on end just to perform better? Racing a real car could feel just as fun for you then, try karting for example.
I'm sorry but you have misunderstood Skinner and operant condititoning, thus muddling your point a bit. Operant conditioning only means that behavior i influenced (reinforced or punished) by the consequences of actions. The skinner box was a simple way to show this, but what you're opposed to seems to be the reward given, not the conditioning itself. All games use operant conditioning by necessity. As soon as something is rewarding in any way, you will be conditioned to increase the frequency of that behavior. Novelty, mystery and so on, are also rewards which create reinforcement in the same way pigeons can be reinforced by food. I agree though, that some rewards are more fulfilling than others in the long term. This however, is a different point which has little to do with learning theory.
Games with skinner box condition people to spend more hours playing them, thus opening their wallets the more they play. It's very obvious and the point of the video.
Oh my god. Xen. Every time that happens to me I sorta realize I'm not just playing warframe anymore. That's one of the coolest feelings you can get, on par with being completely immersed in a book. When your reaction time is so good, you literally cannot feel the controller or keyboard anymore and it's just the character. You don't even blink, your body is numb. Gotta be real tired tho.
I do understand that Skyrim might be addicting, but I don't think the 4(Narrative) is the cause of it. Skyrim is very good game, but I don't think the narrative is the best part of it.
sebool112 Skyrim is best when you create your own narrative. The best time I ever had playing it was when I was roleplaying as a lich that couldn't go into towns and such.
Yellow King I see where you come from. Sometimes I found myself doing something like this, too, but I think it's better when someone expierienced does this thing for you. Feels a little lazy to me to leave player to his own imagination with narrative.
That's something like "COME ON! YOU WILL BE THE BEST ON THE LEADERSHIPS! " Here the leaderships are working with the skinner box, because everyone wants to be the best. Me too :)
***** cookie clicker is probably one of the best examples for skinner boxes.. You do nothing but making a certain counter go up and from time to time unlock new ways of making it count faster. The more it goes up, the faster it goes up. Watch ECs episode on idle games for a better understanding of cookie clicker and why it's so popular and effective.
Great stuff. I wonder if you have a video on multiplayer games and how to design for flow taking into consideration the different skill set of the players in a team and the level of difficulty they can engage with to achieve flow. This I believe draws great parallel to our education system and how we can design to educate people that have different abilities to achieve similar objectives
5:50 ... uh... ive never felt that. yeah ive gotten focused on a game a lot of times before, but i dont zone out unless the sound is turned up too high to the point of being unable to hear anyone and im always aware of whether i need to get up or not, i just choose whether or not to act on that awareness
OH GOD, IT'S TRUE. i've been playing this game for so long i've actually had to create new goals t attain. currently, im trying to get 200 of each building. it's so boring. but i keep doing it. sometimes i'll forget to pull up a new tab for cookie clicker and i'll hate myself for not maximing my time in the game.
the awards in cod come in quickly, its fun because every time you get on you seem to unlock something right away. skinner box feels like it holds back on you for a while til you do something alot, think border lands, you kill tons of things in quests, just killing and killing to finally level up for one, single, skill point. ._. can't believe what i was thinking in playing that.
Upgrade systems are a form of progression in a game, and they aren't inherently bad. They can provide excellent replay value by trying different combinations of upgrades. They aren't just there to convince you to continue playing the game.
The paragon of Skinner boxes: Cookie Clicker
Used to have an autoclicker running cookie clicker for days. Once had it run for 1 month straight almost. Was fun.
I've had cookie clicker open every time I'm on my computer since the summer. After 3126 hours of real world time with the game open and 21 trillion cps, I decided to ascend and use my heavenly chips to earn cookies even faster. With an additional 387% cps on top of the normal game multipliers, I'm now on 124.165 trillion cps in a mere 307 hours. It truly is incredible how such a basic game attracts more engagement than most "triple A" games. It has mastered the basic reward and effort balance that is behind why people enjoy playing games in the first place.
I still play it after years and years. It's always running on my computer.
Willem Maas
you are the pidgeon then
And a content pigeon I am.
The state of flow is a wonderful thing: your'e pinky finger has gone numb and unbendable, you've forgotten the feeling of rage, and blinking is done with great reluctance, but you'll still press that same perfect sequence of keys hundreds of times in a row, trying to find the optimal way to guide that little meaty cube through all those saw blades.
Andrew Cunningham *your
Zzarillo Your really gonna do this?
Andrew Cunningham *you're
Zzarillo Now yore just being silly.
Andrew Cunningham *you're
I can do this all day.
I love this video. I've always hated Skinner Box mechanics, and I've always been good at realizing when I'm in them, but before this video it was a vague concept and I couldn't really pinpoint what the quality was. So I would have to spend a little while in the box before I put the game down feeling burnt but not really knowing why. I saw this video when it first came out on the escapist, and as soon as it defined this quality something clicked and a bunch of games that I disliked for what I thought were unrelated reasons suddenly shared this trait.
As soon as it had a name I've pretty much been able to identify a Skinner Box mechanic immediately. It may have made me a bit more cynical, because now it's harder for a game to to trick me into thinking I'm having fun, but it's also helped me value my time more and has likely spared me countless hours of my life I would have wished I spent doing something more productive. So thank you for that.
+Lyle McDouchebag I feel the same way dad
+Lyle McDouchebag You should give Destiny a shot
+Dawin Parker Long story short NO
+Dawin Parker destiny itself is a fucking skinner pool.... its no longer a box... destiny is like the definition of skinner box...
+Dawin Parker lol. HELL NO!
Well, what else is a pigeon supposed to do if he's closed in a box and a button is the only thing he can interact with?
I was actually thinking it'd be a better demonstration of choice if the pigeon were given a second button and decided not to press it.
i think so , even it's ten years later,i still have such a question
I like being mentally challenged...
Um, I think I said that wrong.
PMW3 instead say "I like being challenged mentally" for it to sound better.
+Noah Minkert he said it that was as a joke, smart ass
PMW3 That made me laugh out loud!😂
Mortally challenged*
Oh God why am I laughing at that that's so messed up
I tend to think of Dance Dance Revolution as an example of flow. You reach a point where you are simply doing the actions and steps so fast that you're not thinking through them.
Ultra instinct
Guitar hero
Sonic the Hedgehog, Mario 3, Donkey Kong, etc.
I guess it's kinda off topic but does anyone know a good website to stream new series online ?
The best example of flow I can think of is “Tony Hawk’s Pro Skater 1 + 2.” The games it remade were like that for the time they came out, too.
'Ever get lost in a game just because it was a place you wanted to be?'
* Shows picture of Fallout *
UM NO THANKS
What's wrong with the wasteland 'smooth skin'?
Sergeant1127 I'm not a fan of Deathclaws and radiation.
The locals are nice though. (Except for the raiders of course)
+TheDragonCat99 lol i noticed that
Who wants to be in a nuclear wasteland anyway?
+xylophone Hooligans and rabble-rousers oh and commies too of course
Bastion and Transistor nail EVERY recommendation you give. That’s probably why they are my favorite games of all time.
Just one more turn! says every Civilization V gamer.
I have to fail or win to finish them and I just cant force myself to fail
+Zach Ruhl
Reload Save!
*****
You gotta admit,
the choices get you hooked nevertheless.
And then, four hours later at 02:00 on a Monday morning: just one more turn!
Rome: Total War
Entering flow state is one of the best things only games can provide without requiring counteless months of dedication and training. And it feels so good XD
Pedro Scoponi I feel like that with every rhythm game i play. Its... Almost magical :D
@@Scyllless I hope you learned an instrument by now lol
@@achillesmichael5705 Four.
@@Scyllless nice
This is one of EC's most useful episodes, only becoming more relevant as game publishers invest more and more in design choices and economies designed to isolate and prey on these kinds of psychological weaknesses.
As a psych student, this is such a great explanation! Also applies to anything in life, we tend to get stuck in Skinner Boxes wherever we go. Moving beyond that is the real deal. Super cool xxx
That "Zen Mode" happens to me often. Especially when I play Sleeping Dogs. I just stop focusing on anything, and start focusing on everything.
I called that mode "Autopilot" though.
Geometry dash...
Happens to me sometimes too
Arnaud always to me
So THIS is how they built Destiny...
Haha useful term, huh?
Wes Alm this is how pretty much all games are made. I think the whole skinner's box theory has been interpreted to represent only one aspect of gaming when in reality if the game provides some type of behavior reinforcement it falls in line with operant conditioning.
No doubt Anthem will use Skinner Box techniques too... :(
I'm an aspiring game developer, and am always looking for videos like yours to give good advice on different ways of creating games. I will probably end up watching this whole series, and appreciate the time you take to make them!
Did you ever get into making games?
What the hell was I doing spending 2500 hours playing tf2? Anyways, I'm gonna go play some tf2.
I have also found just the constant rhythmic "plonk" of breaking stone blocks sort of cathartic, and it sort of does the Skinner's box thing when you find an ore vein, 400+ blocks of stone mined to find a dozen blocks of iron and a diamond. That diamond makes the time taken totally worth it, even if a creeper blows you up right after finding it.
I was playing Skyrim while listening to this, and I find it awesome how accurately Daniel was describing my mental state at that point in the video (focused eyes, slower breathing, deep immersion in a vast and explorable RPG world etc.). I find his thoughts on this matter to be very precise and insightful. Thanks, Dan! :)
Pretty much could have titled this video "Destiny: Explained" or something like that.
+McButtz Or Clicker Hero's to an extent. Played two hours of the game, realised what I was doing, stopped playing and watched this video to help myself not play it again.
+McButtz Just watched this video. 4 minutes in and I was thinking about "This is so Destiny"
Cookie Clicker
And they would have gotten away with it too, if it hadn't been for that pesky atmosphere... or that pesky story... or that pesky immersion-breaking instance transition, etc.
Clash of clans too
As I'm typing this, the whole "eyes go into soft focus, breathing slows, going into a Zen-like state" is rather applicable as I watch/listen to these videos whilst downloading new versions of mods for Minecraft 1.6.4 & 1.7.2! XD
Whilst each episode is usually short, a nice long playlist is nearly perfect relaxation material as the aural stimulation pulls focus and processing from certain parts of my brain, leaving the rest of my consciousness to do things such as this multitasking I'm doing now.
One small downside to such a good show and a long playlist - your voice is so soothing it's almost enough to lull me to sleep once I'm past 16 hours of consciousness (currently running around 20 hours since I woke up yesterday, I think) and running of caffeine fumes. >.
**Super intendant Chalmer voice**
SKINNER!
I bet some developers use conditioning without even realizing it. They might think that they are only taking notes from other games. This would be the equivalent if me sampling a song, and that song used a melody from a much older song. I guess it pays to do your homework. Very thought provoking video. Thanks for posting it.
"even elements as voiceovers in shooters can be used as conditioning tools"
My brain: * M-M-M-M-Monster Kill...Kill...Kill...Kill... *
Skinner's Box is exactly why I quit these kinds of games a couple of years back. I called it 'those games that TELL me what to do, instead of giving me free will', i.e. 'wait 20mins before you can attack again'. If I play a game now and I feel the game 'orders' me to do something 'in order to open that door, you need to find the 5 pieces, bring them to me so I can build you the key', I stop. It takes no skill to play those games.
Brilliant video EC
PS By 'removing those games from my backlog, I have trimmed 600 games down to 85' *sigh*
Me: Grandma, why do you play so much Bejeweled?
Grandma: What's that?
This one is more relevant than ever today, classic extra credits was great in the day.
3:53 "you're terrible!"
"Ugh, I'm going home"
*car crashes in video game*
"You're amazing!"
Back when guitar hero was popular I was really into it and got to where i was playing expert for high scores instead of just seeing if it was possible for me to pass a song. I remember during sessions when i was playing really well i would go into that trance state you talked about in the video, actually makes me want to try the new guitar hero and see if i can get that trance again. It was very relaxing
Love the mention of Planescape: Torment. That was an awesome game with a great story.
Mental Stimulation is one of the most attractive parts of a game for me, which is why Braid is one of my favorite games. Completing a difficult puzzle unaided satisfied me immensely, despite the fact that I may have spent upwards of thirty minutes trying to solve it.
At 12:00 o'clock my parents told me to go to bed.
I stayed up 'till 3:00 just trying to get that damn ankh shield on terraria.
My favorite example of flow is pizza tower, just the simultaneous high speed gameplay and the soft, calmness of being in the zone is simply exuisite
Wonderful vis, thanks for sharing! I have a request: would you please consider making a vid about more *Psychological Tricks in Game Design*, explaining more of this evil strategies besides Skinner Boxes, like Daily Rewards, Resource Decay, Loss Aversion and others, giving examples of games that do this? I'd like a complete video explaning ALL the addiction strategies used by devs. Thanks! ^_^
I'd say a lot of real time rpgs, especially ones that have the element of mastery on their side, also have a hint of flow. As you get better at the games, you start chaining button presses and commands together without even thinking about it. Of course, because they're not generally built around this feeling, it tends to stop pretty quickly. Whenever you need to use an item, or when there's a break in the pattern
Interestingly I had a training recently (I work in mental health) on something very much like that "zen state" you talk about. People look for ways to achieve that state in life and work as well and if we help them foster that, their mental health dramatically improves. One of the main barriers to achieving that state is emotional dysregulation, which often is facilitated by negative internal dialogue and/or preoccupation with past or future events (that we have no control over in the present). I can see how a video game would make achieving that "zen state" significantly easier as some of those barriers I mentioned are naturally eliminated.
In fact, I'd be very interested in getting a list of games that you feel help people achieve the "zen state." We run trauma therapy groups and we tend to have much more success with girls than boys, and I believe it is due to the types of interventions we use. If I could "prescribe" certain video games for the boys to play as part of therapy (achieving zen would be key to this) it might help us bridge that treatment gap.
Eric Cavey In my case, the game I could reach that state the most consistently was Navy Field, a multiplayer WW2 naval conflict game. It's hard to explain or find a reason why, as usually PvP engagements are more dynamic and tend to need more focused active attention to play, but in this case, I think the mix of complex controls (qweasdzxcrtyfv[spacebar][control][shift],.l + mouse plus a couple of numbers were all used constantly to control direction, angle, convergence and fire of the turrets, speed of the ship, selection of front/rear/secondary armament, control of aircraft groups, among others) and the experience that let me internalize those complex controls to use them instinctively were the golden key to archieve that state. EC called it Kinesthetic Projection in the Kinect Disconnect episode, that one might help to clear what I tried to explain that happened to me.
So, IMHO, internalized complex controls that immerse you into the game, coupled with a game that piques the interest of the patient might be a step in the right direction. I'm 99% sure there's no one-size-fits-all game that can produce that effect, and it's more of a case by case research. If you are working on the mental health of the patient, you might be already half way there, by getting to know them you can start trying possible candidates to archieve that state.
Gran Gurbo thabks for the input! I believe you are correct in needing to find what games work for each individual. The trouble I'm having is that the boys just tend to want to play games they like and have trouble understanding what we are trying to accomplish. I will continue lookigninto though as it seems promising.
Eric Cavey It is almost definitely worth noting what those games that they like are, since that definitely contributes to how well the game can actually achieve that state. I've also found that such a state seems to be more common in games that I've gotten to be good at, which does of course mean that almost no game can do this from the start. If achieving such a state quickly is important, trying with their existing library of games can definitely help.
That said, outside of their existing library, games with an easier learning curve will definitely be more capable of achieving such a state sooner. Intuitive, and perhaps more importantly, responsive controls are a must, of course, as is discussed in EC's Kinect Disconnect episode. Such a state cannot be achieved if you're struggling with the controls.
It should be noted though, that a game need not be in itself simple in order to achieve this state, as I have achieved such a state while playing strategy games, Advance Wars in particular.
Super hexagon is one that i get to, i personally name it a game that can actually extend a half hour to being like a hour because i'm /that/ into it, it has a bit of a hard start but i think you should try it out with them
I LOVE that you used a FF Tactics clip 4:38. No regrets in putting hours and hours into that game, definitely my fave all-time (followed by MGS); but it does scare me thinking about how many hours I've put into games overall haha
This explains why I can double my average score on Bejeweled 3 when I'm drunk.
You guys have done an excellent job with this series. Just wanted to show some appreciation. Well done.
You searched for it and found it! Hai :D
Great new episode!!! Your format is really "engaging" :) I think the problem with a lot of RPG's is that they get really repetitive... also sometimes in a game you'll find that if you don't use a guide to allocate for certain skills over others then you get half-way through and then realize you're totally screwed for the rest of it. My favorite game did this to me, but by the time it really mattered the story was over. It's DragonQuest 8 for the PS2... this NEEDS to be a movie, or mini-series.
5:59 Pokemon Puzzle for N64 did this pretty well :) specially in very high Dificults
I truly do like your work and insight.
I feel exceedingly fortunate that I have recently been presented with an opportunity to return to game development, this time by working on the office side of a AAA game... with some potential for input on creative content. I say this not to lift myself up, but to give you the context of what comes next.
I fully intend to use what voice I have to speak THIS truth to the lead designers.
While this may not be a universally true statement for all developers, I want for any project that I work on to be the best that it can possibly be, and I do not consider profitability to be a measurement of quality. The points that you have made in this (and other) video(s) resonates strongly with me. I only hope that I can keep them in mind as I my tiny voice is added to the process.
Thank you.
From the explanation you gave of Skinner's box, could levelling up through an experience system be considered a skinner box? After all, you're grinding, doing a single, monotonous thing over and over until, DING, you get a sudden, positive reaction. This is why people get so addicted to grinding dungeons and such, isn't it?
+Cowfaic'd Realm Depends on the game and how it's progression system is built. If grinding is made an inferior method of progressing your character, you are getting rewarded for not grinding, but rather progressing the game itself and solving problems.
Or at least that's how I'm seeing it right now.
eyegrinder94
Surely, though, it's still at least based on the skinner box... right?
Cowfaic'd Realm Well, I don't think it is necessarily 'based' on it, but has an unfortunate tendency to be used as such.
Many games feature an xp-based leveling system, but it's implemented and used in such a way that it avoids the skinner effect.
Take, for instance, the newer Fallout games. I've played those games for longer than I care to admit, but I don't think I ever played the game for the purpose of, or really ever got any enjoyment out of, leveling up.
And I think what does it, at least for me, is that the progression is not fast enough. The things that grant xp are too diverse and far between for you to ever really form this mental connection of action+repetition=reward.
I don't play a lot of games (I tend to stick to a single game for long periods of time), but the only game I remember having this effect on me (besides those awful inserttheme-clicker browser games) was Demon's Souls when I first played it. One of the levels was particularly good for farming xp, so I'd run through it repeatedly to level up. There, the level was short enough and yielded enough xp for this effect to happen.
So in the end, I don't think such a system is inherently a skinner box, but you can rather easily turn it into one. The setup of the box has to be rigid and focused enough for you to make that mental connection.
eyegrinder94
Oh, I see. Thanks for explaining that btw, helps me understanding the video a bit better too :D
+Cowfaic'd Realm Level up systems in general are the archetypical skinner box. That isn't a "could this be", that's a "everybody who has heard of a skinner box visualises a leveling system via XP".
Literally just cited this for an HR report on gamification in Business. 10/10, Extra credits.
This video has helped me to see a fundamental flaw in my understanding of how people respond to games. I've seen people fall prey to Skinner's theorems put into practice but it has never worked on me. I've only ever sunk a lot of time into a game if I actually enjoyed it, and I've never regretted all that time spent. So it isn't surprising therefore, when I was frustrated over my inability to understand why other people were so keen on playing games that, as far as I could tell, they can't actually be enjoying. This makes it all so much clearer, thanks!
I have another question now...why am I different? I'm not trying to toot my horn here, I'm genuinely curious. Are there others like me? There have to be, I think. How do I tell them apart? Is there simply two extremes, or a dithered scale spreading gradually from one side to the other? And how does this apply to game theory? Moreover, how can I use this to my advantage when seeking out a game I will find fulfilling, and not just drop by the wayside when I notice that it's full of zombie players and it isn't any fun?
+TheReaverOfDarkness
"I have another question now...why am I different?"
Man i've been asking that question ever since everyone here could afford a good and decent mobile phones and tablets, then got addicted to mobile garbage like candy crush saga, Clash of Clans, and some other games that would make you do repetitive things, just because that's the gameplay (but i would give CoC a break since it adds cool new feature that you would get if you play it long enough, but it still pretty shallow in terms of being a strategy game).
"Are there others like me?"
Well, there are quite a lot of people out there that doesn't fall prey to Skinner's theorems, and those people (like me) are usually gamers that play a lot of old games that have redeemable content, and guinely rewards us if we actually play the game, & also games that has maximum amount of player involvement.
"How do I tell them apart?"
Usually they are people in the minority, when it comes to liking games, and only like games that are "REALLY" set itself apart from all the endless recycling and non-innovative games that got released yearly (and they hate CoD for it being the same every year sure).
" Is there simply two extremes, or a dithered scale spreading gradually from one side to the other?"
i don't know what you're saying, but if you mean that there's only pure casual and pure hardcore gamers that exist in the industry, then you're not "exactly" right, i mean, after the mobile market got its fair share of hardware evolution, coupled with cheaper hardware, the casual market take it's place in the heart of the industry (simply because they got tons of money in the mobile market) and the people that were never involve in the industry (like those that can't afford or doesn't want to spend hours sitting on a couch or chair just to get the digital entertaintment that their childrens have a luxury of) can now experience it themself without shelling out hundreds of dollars of things that you can't do anything about because of how busy you are.
"how can I use this to my advantage when seeking out a game I will find fulfilling, and not just drop by the wayside when I notice that it's full of zombie players and it isn't any fun?"
well, try to find a demo for said game, if you like it, then you'll enjoy the entirerity of the game (pretty damn simple right?) but when it comes to MP games, you just have to look for people that aren't just brainless zombies (average people that is new (been gaming since 2012 and such) to the industry) and listen to their opinion and see if that's the game for you, and only buy it, if the developers being honest with their game(s).
And honestly i think i'm the most different person on the province i'm living in, (Bali, Indonesia) just because i know a lot about gaming, and that the industry is actually rapturing from within itself because of the greed,lazyness,lies, & unfairness that the AAA developers have showed us year, after year, after year, with it be broken console ports, (AC Unity, Arkham Knight Etc.) gutted DLCs and expansions, (Destiny much....) and other things that just not the way the game was showed at E3, (lots o' example like Sports games, Watch dogs, Etc.) & with that i personnaly think that the industry need another crash just so that it would fix itself and that developers shouldn't be allowed to get away from yearly rehasses, gutted base content, games that far from publicly playable state, and lies that would just be blown by the wind and never to be bringed up again......
I'm also 15 years old, in case you're wondering :)
I'ma Rob'Oat
One of my biggest problems (everyone's problem, really) is that not only are the crap games more profitable, they are so much more profitable that every game company prioritizing profit will purposely release crap games. No matter how much crap they release, and no matter how many crappy games people play and learn to hate, they keep coming back and paying for new crap.
It makes me sick just watching it.
TheReaverOfDarkness
Well, that's casual filth for you :P
but jokes aside, they are the real problem with this industry, i mean like, why the hell would they want to spend their money on shallow uninteresting garbage of a game when they could just do a little research and get a very high quality ones, that actually deserve more of the praising than the other casual filth says?
1 answer:
Because they don't know "Quality" and what it means to play a game that have them, hell even all of my classmates that play mobile garbage all the time at school said that they would prefer play a game that's "easily rewarding", and "easy to get into", and damn even "repetitive games that you only play cuz everyone else plays it (high solidarity there, i give 'em that)".
But even if you give them a "worthwhile" games to play and even the ones with the essence of "Quality" being written all over it, they would still be in a denial, because can't "see" or even "feel" the "Quality" in those games because to them, it's all just a "hard and confusing games" hell even games that are my favorite, is the games that were released in the ps 2 era, like Persona 4, Black, MK: Shaolin Monks, and Crash Mind Over Mutant, Bournout 3: Takedown and i can see and feel the quality of those games, because you know what?
Because they're made for a very simple reason :
They are made so that people would "enjoy" it "have fun" in it and most importantly "to bring profit" and honestly, if you manage to make a fun games where players could just grind all the way through and freaking rage because of how HC it is, damn you would even be forgiven if you make good enough reward and be %100 fair to your player (RNG is bullshit)
and i'm spesifictly talking about God Hand.
Yes the one that IGNorant put to shame with it being too hard (hell they even game Alien: Isolation a freaking 6!!!) and gave it an unfair score of 3!!?, shit man, they even say that the game have an "awful" camera angle and that it make the game sucks, but man when you got used to it (and believe me, if you really try to play the game for about halfway through) you'll become a badass because the angle of the camera was pitch perfect, also you can littelary dodge every single damn attacks thrown at you, i mean know that there's no "block" move but man you can dodge real good if you have the hang of it.
So back to the topic with:
"One of my biggest problems (everyone's problem, really) is that not only are the crap games more profitable, they are so much more profitable that every game company prioritizing profit will purposely release crap games"
Ok so the reason as of why they prefer garbages like:
-Destiny (while we prefer Borderlands 1 & 2)
-CoD (while we prefer Battlefield 3 & 4)
-Shovelwares (like most of every game that is ever released on mobile)
Is because like i said, they don't know "Quality" also because that they prefer an "easier" game that they could just play without any "special" skill to "enjoy" (man they said that to me all the time, but when i ask them "but dude, what the hell do you call a 360 no scope then?" and they replied with "well it's a different kind of skill that ONLY TRUE GAMERS HAS AND BRAINLESS GAMERS CAN'T APRECIATE" i mean like that's what he littelary said to me (i mean somewhere on youtube in a freaky youtube 360 degree no scope video).
and the thing about companies deliberately releasing broken unfinished scrapped games, is because they want to "maximize" profit because they are so damn jealous with those devs on the mobile market that makes tons of money, and hoping to salvage what little "sheepy" fanboys they have left and drain them off their cash.
and why are crappy games more profitable well here's 3 simple sentences:
1.The amount of reward the game gave you for equal the amount of effort that you do, and in casual filth case.... well.... that's very low on the effort side.
2.The accessibility of said game, and how hard it is to get the heart of the action, and in their case... this is also has to be very low for them to "enjoy" (hence, why IGNorance gave God Hand a 3, and Alien:Isolation a 6)
3.Again they don't know "Quality" (y'know games that actually make you work for the reward, instead of bathing you with it for the simplest of things that you do).
there's my long explanation along with the wight that i kept for years now, hope you understand what i'm saying.
I'ma Rob'Oat
I understand why they want a quick play game, it makes sense because they never get very invested in a game. If they play the same game for many hours, usually the main reason is that they're really bored and don't know a lot of other titles. These are the people who consider all that time spent gaming to be a waste of one's life--and they're normal.
What I don't understand is their willingness to sink so much money into simple games that are merely staving off boredom. I see a lot of these people playing these games on the bus, and they'll spend $20 on one bus ride for some time to play a freemium game. My guess is they don't even realize how much they're spending on it, or if they do, there is some disconnect as to how each small microtransaction adds up.
Maybe our schools need to teach people about microtransactions. Simple stuff like how a daily purchase of the same small thing adds up, and you need to consider minor differences in how many cents it costs when you would ignore that with a major purchase. Perhaps people would start to realize how expensive each microtransaction is when they learn to consider how much use they'll get from it.
TheReaverOfDarkness
Well, those are the people that was new to the game industry, so ofc they don't know many of the good titles that come out just a few years prior when they joined the industry.
Other than that i doesn't really know, as of why they're willing to give a mobile garbage their hard-earned money (aside from Minecraft ofc, being able to play it on the go, feels more luxury to me more than a convenient cashgrab), just to get something that doesn't really worth to "spend $20 on one bus ride for some time to play a freemium game", but my theory is, maybe they saw something in said game and their brain be all like:
"Damn, that dude got better stuff than mine in this game, maybe if i cash it out a "little" bit i'll be happy".
But we both know how it ended up being just a well of desperation to get the most out of the game, while spending those "tiny little" extra dollars for...... let's say "Instant energy refill (well this is convenient.....)".
Then the next day ofc they went to do it again, since remember, it just like... what?, $2?, damn that's super cheap easier compare to waiting over 12 minutes, just to that damn last bit of points before the event goes out, and "suffer" the feeling of being left behind in the leaderboard and "not(?)" getting that sick armor that all the youtube reviewers, is hyping lately.
Then they keep doing it (spending cash on a bunch of "1's and 0's", no seriously, it's literally just bits of "1's and 0's"), day by day.... week by week.... and eventually they bored of it (or god forbid... "doesn't"...) after a few month to cash it out on something else.
But what happened to all of those money they spend?, well of course all of them goes the "cashwhores" bank account, and with all the daily:
"Damn not enough energy, and it's just a few more to go!" (let's say that the devs are a bunch of jackasses, and give you a tiny bit of max energy for the whole game (unless you cash it out big time ofc).
And
"Man, *sigh*, this grinding is super boring *click on the material screen* 4 iron more to go.... *3 minutes later....* screw it, i'll just get it from the store *shell out $8 for the same sword, but with higher stats from the store*.
I don't see the reason why they won't change their business practices.
Also know that those casual gamers are single and short minded, so ofc they won't see the numbers adding up, because that's how their mind works, and compare to ours, we are a lot smarter (obviously), just because we know, and without thinking (well too much anyway), what this will become eventually.
And we can see the developers greed just by looking at this:
www.dropbox.com/s/bsy6145w97gdwtb/Oh%20My%20Gawd.....jpg?dl=0
And honestly, of all the people that dare to say that "those are optional, you can get everything without paying anything more in the game", hundreds more will make a shout-out, and boycott the horrendous, living being that make this abomination, that dare to charge, a full premium priced AAA game, and still litter it with all the too obvious microtransactions, bugs and glitches, awful console port, and hype it like never before seen in the developers history.
"Maybe our schools need to teach people about microtransactions. Simple stuff like how a daily purchase of the same small thing adds up, and you need to consider minor differences in how many cents it costs when you would ignore that with a major purchase. Perhaps people would start to realize how expensive each microtransaction is when they learn to consider how much use they'll get from it."
This is a genius idea,but dude, they can't actually "teach" us (or them for that matter) about microtransactions, because it's not really something a school would teach, but wait, don't they already teach us that exact same thing in... "economy"?.
And in all honesty i don't think it'll make any difference, since all of those people are living in the present, not the future, so they are unlikely to think that far ahead, just because they could save a lot more in the long run, doesn't mean that they will stop spending a little bit of their money every once in a while on a mobile garbage, it's just how a lot of peoples (except for some of us) mind works.
Yeah, those moments are fantastic. Also, good for you, searching back 5 months to find one comment and reply to it. Thanks!
Oddly enough the Need for Speed series from Underground to maybe Carbon gets me in the kind of trance where I have no idea what I'm doing anymore. I'm not really focusing on anything and I just win races. I guess now I know why.
Those were some great fucking games
Everything you said is true, fully logical and can not be proven wrong. This was amazing and I could see everything you mentioned actually play out exactly like u said in real life.
This clashes with some of the more recent videos on lootboxes that Extra credits has put out.
Sooooo true, I had been thinking about this intuitively for a couple of weeks now and just discovered your channel. Awesome work!
Destiny the worlds most expensive skinner box
I've been spending 3 years trying to make myself have the mindset of "Hey, wait a minute. I can just save this for tomorrow, then I both get to do this tomorrow and a good night's sleep". And just now am I starting to actually manage it. This skinner box "Just 1 more" concept is serious business, it's extremely hard to fight back!
Vechs earned you a subscriber ;)
Combining rhythm and gameplay is executed in endless runners. That's why so many people love them.
I get so sad watching many Extra Credits episodes. It makes me miss City of Heroes again. It did so many things right.
I have this with minecraft,"i just need to finish the outer walls of this giant castle" and it usually takes me 4 hours and i just feel relieved that it's over at the end
Hey um.... would Destiny classify as a "Skinner Box" type game? Because, i've been trying to get the Vex Mythoclast for about 2 months now. I have a problem, because I dream of this gun every night, and I'm ALWAYS thinking about it. I just want to know if I should stop or not.
I think it is just an internal problem you have :) Where does the need of this arise from. You played too long to get it and you couldn't? You play with your friends and everyone has got it and you haven't? What is it that you want to accomplish? Do you want the power of the weapon or the cosmetics or just the prestige that it brings, or are you just addicted to the RNG?
It is for you to figure out. Don't forget, every action you do or don't has a meaning whether you analyse it or not depends on you wanting to expand on your inner self :)
Hope I was able to help.
I thin it might count. I mean, the fact you have to farm and grind to the point of extreme tedium, but say stuff like "One more time"
Yes Destiny is a skinner box type game. All random loot based games are using the skinner box. But a lot of them don't really completely on the skinner box so they are still fun to play. The skinner box is what keeps you hooked though. Whether you should stop or not though depends on if you are still having fun playing Destiny in between loot drops. You are essentially pressing a button over and over again hoping to get a reward. It's not really that big of an issue if you are just doing the raid once a week to get the mythoclast. Everything in Destiny uses the skinner box. Running strikes over and over to try and get good gear. Constantly doing bounties. Even Xur. I still make sure to sign in every week to see if he has good items and then that usually gets me into doing bounties and strikes to try to get good drops. You will probably lose interest in Destiny as soon as you get the mythoclast.
Destiny is the epitome of the Skinner Box. It is, in all genuiness, a poorly designed, really "not fun" game, but everyone I know who plays it justifies their actions with "but I wanted that other gun that in no way effects gameplay."
What really make me interessted in Destiny is the universe/setting.
6:02 That really makes me think about how I play Guitar Hero. It's impossible to translate the colored notes into words quick enough to play, but at a certain point, I began to just know how to hit the notes right. It is a cool experience to play on expert.
I've never usually been interested in Skinner Box games for longer than a week or two. Maybe its because only getting periodical rewards aren't enough for my brain, and it needs something in the downtime as well. Not sure.
First game that comes to mind when you mentioned Flow was Geometry wars.
Most of my high scores were set not while i was focusing, but when i was just lost and doing reflexively, not thinking about anything. No thoughts, just actions.
It's why i love Geometry Wars so much.
Yeah sure you're focused at first, but when you pass that 100k point mark, you start losing yourself and just...playing.
I'd take a casino where I win all the time over a regular casino. It's just a horrible business strategy and you'll go bankrupt really quickly. And with win I mean earning more than you spend.
Mystery, Mastery, Mental Challenge, Narrative, Novelty, and Flow.
Clash Of Clans.
This game uses this and many people don't even realise
Thanks for inspiring me. Now I fully intend to go full throttle on the Skinnerian Operant Conditioning for my studies.
so nostalgic to see when EC was still about games and how to improve on their design
I got lost in the game Dragon Age: Origins. Was my first type of such a game and until today, years later I still love it and want to play again. So nostalgic.
One word: Super Hexagon!
...I think that super hexagon is two words...
That's flow right there. Such a great game.
It's funny watching this video about conditioning. Because I recall a late night last night when my only thought was "just one more video." Well done mate.
FF Tactics was so good
Zen state: When playing Splatoon and my eyes glaze over. My brother watches in shock as I never die, take down their entire team multiple times, and charge in to a victory. Mindlessly playing until the results page, then starting the whole thing over again. And over again. Splatoon is one of my most zen games, mostly due to the fact that I play it obscenely often. Whenever I need stress relief, haha
Spelunky and Minecraft will constantly put me in a state of zen. Always.
cave story and skyrim for me
Jake Wood Never played Skyrim, but I love Cave Story. You gradually improve your flow until you're rinsing through enemies that were menacing before... it feels awesome.
yep
Jake Wood I feel I'm under a minority, I've played Cave Story multiple times when I moved to different computers, but I never really got to seeing it as the Messiah that people say it is.
Michelle Johnson Eh, to each his/her own, I guess.
Just one more episode of extra credits. (Me,right before watching this at 12 am)
Now I feel bad for playing so much solitaire.
UA-cam needs more brave souls like you my good sir.
Vechs sent me here :D
6:06, So what's happening to me when I'm so deeply immersed into a song on expert while playing Guitar Hero, where I randomly become aware of my motor skills in a way that it messes you up? You could be on an amazing streak, and then something out of seemingly nowhere just makes you aware of everything around you, and makes it seem like time itself slows, just to show you your flawed movement?
That reminds me of cookie clicker. :)
same.
Zen gaming and mastery... The compassion for those is what steals so many hours practicing xD
The Godfather was an awesome game
Well there's the explanation right there, it's the incentive of a future project (created by you) that pushes you to the "one more level" phase and not just the achievements you get for completing goals.
6:00 they predicated friday night funkin
FNF isn't the only rhythm game out there kid
the flow in racing games like f-zero keep entertained simply because they "feel nice" to control
That's racing games in general, ever played a racing simulator for hours on end just to perform better?
Racing a real car could feel just as fun for you then, try karting for example.
All of his demands on games, literally, ALL of them are present in one game :
- League of Legends
3:55 PERFECT! _Tekken 5 when you defeat someone, and you come out unscathed_ 😂
Destiny is literally nothing but Skinner box. 24/7
999: 9 persons 9 hours 9 doors:
a great narrative and great puzzles
I'm sorry but you have misunderstood Skinner and operant condititoning, thus muddling your point a bit.
Operant conditioning only means that behavior i influenced (reinforced or punished) by the consequences of actions. The skinner box was a simple way to show this, but what you're opposed to seems to be the reward given, not the conditioning itself. All games use operant conditioning by necessity. As soon as something is rewarding in any way, you will be conditioned to increase the frequency of that behavior. Novelty, mystery and so on, are also rewards which create reinforcement in the same way pigeons can be reinforced by food.
I agree though, that some rewards are more fulfilling than others in the long term. This however, is a different point which has little to do with learning theory.
Games with skinner box condition people to spend more hours playing them, thus opening their wallets the more they play. It's very obvious and the point of the video.
Oh my god. Xen. Every time that happens to me I sorta realize I'm not just playing warframe anymore. That's one of the coolest feelings you can get, on par with being completely immersed in a book. When your reaction time is so good, you literally cannot feel the controller or keyboard anymore and it's just the character. You don't even blink, your body is numb. Gotta be real tired tho.
reason number 4 keeps me playing skyrim
Same. When I play Skyrim, 2 hours feels insanely fast. I play a lot of games, every genre but nothing compares to Skyrim for me to this day.
I do understand that Skyrim might be addicting, but I don't think the 4(Narrative) is the cause of it. Skyrim is very good game, but I don't think the narrative is the best part of it.
sebool112
Skyrim is best when you create your own narrative. The best time I ever had playing it was when I was roleplaying as a lich that couldn't go into towns and such.
Yellow King I see where you come from. Sometimes I found myself doing something like this, too, but I think it's better when someone expierienced does this thing for you.
Feels a little lazy to me to leave player to his own imagination with narrative.
All of the reasons are what keep me coming back to Morrowind
Thank you for this. This was a very well made, presented and interesting, ironically engaging (because that's what it'a about). Well done you. :)
are cookie clickers Skinner boxes?
That's something like "COME ON! YOU WILL BE THE BEST ON THE LEADERSHIPS! "
Here the leaderships are working with the skinner box, because everyone wants to be the best. Me too :)
***** cookie clicker is probably one of the best examples for skinner boxes.. You do nothing but making a certain counter go up and from time to time unlock new ways of making it count faster. The more it goes up, the faster it goes up. Watch ECs episode on idle games for a better understanding of cookie clicker and why it's so popular and effective.
+Scarage21 Its not meant to be a skinner box though, It was just a fun little experiment. but now that I think of it, its kinda skinnerboxy.
Great stuff. I wonder if you have a video on multiplayer games and how to design for flow taking into consideration the different skill set of the players in a team and the level of difficulty they can engage with to achieve flow. This I believe draws great parallel to our education system and how we can design to educate people that have different abilities to achieve similar objectives
مين دخل الفيديو لان حسين حط رابطه في وصف مقطعه
5:50 ... uh... ive never felt that. yeah ive gotten focused on a game a lot of times before, but i dont zone out unless the sound is turned up too high to the point of being unable to hear anyone and im always aware of whether i need to get up or not, i just choose whether or not to act on that awareness
*_cough_* cookie clicker *_cough_*
OH GOD, IT'S TRUE. i've been playing this game for so long i've actually had to create new goals t attain. currently, im trying to get 200 of each building. it's so boring. but i keep doing it. sometimes i'll forget to pull up a new tab for cookie clicker and i'll hate myself for not maximing my time in the game.
TheRelevantusername Admitting is the first step. ;)
It really does kind of boil the "Skinner Box Game" down to its most basic elements.
the awards in cod come in quickly, its fun because every time you get on you seem to unlock something right away. skinner box feels like it holds back on you for a while til you do something alot, think border lands, you kill tons of things in quests, just killing and killing to finally level up for one, single, skill point. ._. can't believe what i was thinking in playing that.
*COUGH COUGH* Destiny *COUGH COUGH*
Upgrade systems are a form of progression in a game, and they aren't inherently bad. They can provide excellent replay value by trying different combinations of upgrades. They aren't just there to convince you to continue playing the game.
one more block...
You all are great role models to me. This video shows why.