I dont mean to be offtopic but does someone know of a way to log back into an Instagram account? I was dumb forgot the password. I love any assistance you can give me!
I feel like assassins creed syndicate makes a different mistake yet it was enough to break the immersion. In ac: syndicate they throw many lines during traversal but it a lot of times those words were to much for such a short trip, i have had to wait in front of the destination many times so the characters end their conversation and that made the experiencie a lot worse in my opinion.
Interesting. +Pendragon mentioned a similar thing in Red Dead Redemption, but he enjoyed the dialogue enough to want to slow down, even though it was optional. Just goes to show the difference good dialogue makes.
+〈-thatguyoverthere haha, I do remember in Red Dead Redemption, when someone started talking I'd be like "Oh shit, how close are we to the destination?? EVERYBODY SLOW DOWN!"
+Leandro Amarillo I remember a similar issue on GTA IV. Arriving at my destination with another character in the passenger seat and awkwardly waiting for them to finish talking before getting out of the car.
+Arturo Gutierrez GTA V fixes it by only waiting until the current line is finished. GTA V does a lot of things right, like picking up a conversation where you left off when interrupted. In RDR, if you bumped into them while they're talking they won't repeat that conversation.
I feel like Red Dead Redemption is another good use of transition scenes. Every horse ride with another character is filled with world and relationship building dialog. I purposely slowed down when they happened so I wouldn't miss them.
+Pendragon I was literally just thinking about RDR. I never wanted to skip those horse rides or wagon rides with other characters because there was so much meaningful dialogue there that added so much to the game. Totally with you! :D
+Pendragon Very true. It was those moments that gave more life to each character involved. It can make a huge difference in how you experience that world and it's characters.
+Pendragon The GTA games also do that really well I feel. When you're driving from point A to point B usually there's some character with you who will talk with you about what they're doing and how they know the character and whatever, but it was a lot more powerful in RDR yeah
+Pendragon I found that game frustrating because it always seemed like they kept having the same conversation. "Blah blah Redemption, blah blah criminal, blah blah Humanism, blah blah." At a certain point all the charm of the game started to leave, I was tired of John Marsden. I couldn't skip those scenes and once the mission was over I had to ride in dead silence clear back across Mexico for another mission that was 90% riding a horse and having a conversation.
I love this series so much. It's rare to see a UA-cam channel not resort to ranting to convince us that they're right, and rather uses actual examples and teaches us how to see this stuff for ourselves.
Not disputing that Destiny is a little shit, but why is dialogue so important for narrative? I get it in most mediums but I feel it's far less important in games than moves or TV. I mean in TV, movies and games you can tell an amazing story and craft an immersive world without a single word. We have the advantage of gameplay: Dark Soul is a game set in a dark, brutal and punishing world, and so the gameplay is slow, heavy and very punishing.
+louisross980 Because dialogue is the simplest way for two characters to interact, which is the foundation for good character development. Yeah, the interactivity is a huge part of a game's narrative but like they say in the video, you're not always going to be able to interact with the world.
louisross980 But dialogue is an integral, essential part of so many games! If you're talking to someone, ever, just once, it's dialogue. I don't understand why you don't understand why dialogue is important; the gang has talked so much about how the OTHER elements of a game work to make story, like atmosphere, gameplay and, well, cutscenes, so they clearly understand this, but in fact it's dialogue that most games prefer to rely on to build much of their most important elements. I mean, tell me this - what would Diablo the series be without people telling you Diablo himself is in fact the cause of all the destruction you fight on a regular basis? What would be the point of killing Diablo without that one single line of dialogue? Would there be much of any other way to make a shadowy figure without an incredibly cartoony moment in there? No not every game needs it, but most games have it and if a game HAS it, at all, it'd better utilize it well.
Yep, a lot of destiny's "Story" is told through grimoire cards and other collectable items, which is a shame, because there is a lot of really interesting stuff. Some of the ghosts throw away lines are kind of funny though "I live in your backpack" always makes me laugh
Baylor Collins I remember reading that.....somewhere. About how all wizards start as female and only the strongest becomes king. I have no clue honestly.
+jacob farwell Easy, he is evil and doesn't care about humanity. He even killed some guardians sent by the Vanguard. Zavala said so in the S.A.B.E.R. strike.
For some reason, the first scene that came to mind when talking about dialogue telling us about characters, the world, etc, was in Saints Row the Third, with The Boss and Pierce singing along to the radio in some side missions, and just showing that they're damn good friends, and just showing, in a strange, Saints Row-ey way, a snippet of relaxed, normal life between the seriousness of the gunfights and main story, and the strangeness of hitting mascots over the head with giant purple bats shaped like male genitalia. Plus Zach and Bobby (the announcers for the gameshow-esque Genki minigames) have probably had more characterization than many entire casts of characters in some games. For example, the dialogue in the Mind Over Murder minigames telling us about why they're even in the simulation in the first place, and about the main villain of the game. Now that I think about it, the Saints Row games have a lot of good use of dialogue providing characterization and world building. Huh.
I like how they used the cover of MGSV with Kojima's name on on it rather than the one that was used after Konami struck his name off of it. Nice one, Extra Credits...
You know when I first gave destiny a try I chose a warlock Exo, space magic and sentient robots seemed like an amazing combination. However some nagging questions just kept lingering every single time I took a look at my character. Whats an Exo, are they just like people, what makes them different from the vex, do they have emotions, are they really not going to tell me anything? During the entire slog of the story I learned nothing, same goes with the Awoken and space magic. The only information I ever received was when you first pick your character with the little bio telling me I'm a robot built for war. Gee, thanks for doing the absolute bare minimum, truly this is the Destiny experience.
+ZombieMonkey7 Exos are essentially human minds running on a different platforms, and at least some of them actually used to be human. The definitely have a emotion. The Vex are a completely different thing. There's a lot of lore and story that give everything in the Destiny universe context, and delicious mysteries and interesting subjects brought up that ripe for theorizing and exploration, but sadly it's all relegated to the grimoire cards, which was an awful mistake.
+Eliakith The problem with the grimoire is that it is completely disconnected from the main experience. You find a neat piece of vista, you want to know everything about it, but instead of giving you the information they give you a notice to check the grimoire for more. But Destiny is a multiplayer experience - how many people that would have loved to know more actually have friends that would be okay with them stopping every 5 to 10 minutes to bone up on the background story? By the time the gaming session is over, you might have forgotten some of the things you are curious about, you might instantly jump into another game, or you might just have given up on finding out more altogether. It was a stunningly bad design decision, really. Especially with Dinklebot RIGHT THERE following you around. Spending what feels like hours "unlocking" "hacking" or what have you, where he would have had plenty of time telling you a neat story.
Destiny has what may be the worst line of exposition in anything ever: "My motive is simple loyalty, to a people, a queen, a sister." Yeah, he basically just stared directly into the camera and told us his fucking character traits and then his relationship to the queen. The whole cutscene had me cringing at how stilted and contrived the dialogue was.
***** I cheesed my way through many of the parts of the games and I don't feel bad one bit since, since it's so old, that it felt like a breath of fresh air when i entered the awesome world of Dragon Age Origins, not counting all the bad as^ mods for it.
kind of off topic,but my main problem with borderlands is tha because the gameplay is so chaotic and action packed that there is little to no "silent time" they could use for dialogue and stuff. many portions of the clever writing and interesting world they build is lost because they decide to say that during a giant battle
I thank god for having the true vault hunter mode,because picking a guzerker in bl2 and nisha in the pre sequel didnt help the story(though i did understand it and the borderlands franchise is still my favorite of all time).
120 words per minute?That's two words for every second! I didn't realize TV shows were so talky. (Well, this is referring to live-action. I'm guessing with animated TV shows, the word count is somewhat less, considering there is a lot of visual humor or action scenes without much dialogue. Then, there's that episode of Samurai Jack where there's only one short sentence spoken at the end.)
I'd be very interested to see how you rate GlaDOS' lines in Portal 1 and 2. Since most of it is only sarcasm or misinformation. At the beginning you can say that it serves to express GlaDOS' persona, but about the rest of the game? It didn't struck me as a bad game dialogue-wise, quite the opposite actually! But it seems like it wouldn't be "rated" very high by the general advices given here :) Either way, very good episode as always :)
Those lines are funny and let you know more about the character so they fit. It was a way to keep you from feeling alone as you move from one puzzle to another, building up to the actual big moments.
+Altrue19 Somehow I expected that someone would bring up Portal (2). In my opinion, the sarcasm is funny, so it serves at least the purpose to entertain the player. And once GlaDOS' persona has been established, it has to stay just as snarky just to stay in character. Also, it's not as if GlaDOS doesn't deliver any narrative. She does, it's just quite subtle (also, I think the instructional dialog outweighs the narrative dialog). Other than that, I can't really come up with more ideas for arguments to defend Portal with this episode in mind. Maybe the next episode will give us another lever for discussion. ;)
+Altrue19 I think it has to do with the fact that some of her lines are genuinly funny, and also the fact that the game environment starts giving you clues that she's lying, once you figure that out there becomes intrigue in the story and distrust with Glados, you're now a lot more engaged with what's she saying as you try to figure out what kind of scheme she has for you in the end.
+Altrue19 In that case, I'd say that Glados's lines fulfill the criteria of being funny, telling you about Glados, and telling you about the world you live in. Many of Glados's lines serve to hammer home that you're an expendable lab rat in a highly amoral lab facility that is being run by an insnae AI with a threadbare understanding of how the human mind works. With that said, I've never played Destiny and would like to hear some examples of these throwaway lines.
+Altrue19 I think throw away lines are only bad, when they get in the way of your story/world building. Portals world is a small space with limited characters and a very straight forward narrative fitting to a puzzle game. So funny throw away lines are good. Destiny has a gigantic world full of alien races and characters and as an rpg it needs to focus on the narrative. So them wasting precious word space is a problem.
I love these episodes about writing. I'm a writer myself, and it's super helpful to learn about this kind of thing, even if literature is a different kind of medium.
Yeah, all dialogues should have a purpuse in the game world, characters, etc. But sometimes, a line raises a question to use not in the game, but istead a question we should ask in the real world, in our everyday lifes. "Should anything between two slices of bread be called a sandwich?"
I’m rewatching this while playing FFXV and your point made at 5:50 ish was handled really well I think. I love how when driving the side characters will bring up something they want to do, be it taking a picture, or pointing out a camp site to spend the night at. I think it really makes the game and characters feel ‘alive’
I don't plan on being a game designer, not am I even a particularly avid gamer, but the concepts explored in this series are so thought-provoking, and so applicable to every other form of media most of the time, that I just can't help but keep watching it. Extra Credits is definitely my favorite game theory channel. Keep up the good work!
Consider Knights of the Old Republic for a great example of "meaning dialogue". Every time you say something meaningful in conversation, it will not only impact your character, but also, depending on who is with you, your party members' reactions. Do something evil? Good characters will comment. It's not just a throwaway comment, though, since the delivery manages to also create a feeling of friction between conflicting characters.
+Avram Levitt such fantastic games, I don't know why they don't have remasters. I would love to play this on my PS4. I do own them on steam, and yes I have an Xbox PC controller, but having it on the console again..idk it just feels different even though it really isn't. Still fantastic games no matter what you play them on. (I owned them on the original Xbox).
+Avram Levitt To be fair, RPGs are known for the dialogue-centered gameplay. Mainly it's a western RPG thing and it seems to be dying out and being replaced with more streamlined dialogue.
This makes me think about why I love Transistor so much, in terms of its story - there are many lines that could be throwaway lines, but they always hint at something that the player hasn't discovered yet, making you always curious about what happens next.
The transitional dialogues in the Wild Hunt are so powerful many developers would no dare to 'waste' them for a transition and would rather create a whole cutscene for them. And that is where they fail - they boost the attention in situations that do not require that boost, while not even trying to forge the overall greatness out of little moments that we could care about. Great observation +Extra Credits!
I'm so glad I didn't hop on the Destiny train. it looked awful with a bunch of empty promises. you can argue all day that I just don't understand but you should check what stores are selling it for.
+ThePunisher1028 The main problem with destiny was that they tried to sell an unfinished game at full price while at the same time selling you the rest of what should've been covered in the initial cost at the same price, you essentially pay for the game twice if you want the whole experience. This is why I think DLC is a huge problem in the gaming industry, because it gives companies an excuse to rush a game while they just say "Oh, we'll patch that bug or add that piece of content later" and then never do or when they do it either falls flat onto its face or comes at an additional cost to the player. But, that's not saying that DLC is bad it is more of what has become of DLC as time went on that has become bad. Games like Smash 4 and CoD:WaW have good DLC, you aren't required to buy their DLC to get the full experience of the game and can play without ever looking at the DLC packs. With Smash 4 you can play the game to its fullest without buying the DLC with the fighters that come with the main game but at the same time you can buy one of the DLC characters if you want to and you won't be overpowered due to the characters having natural counters. In WaW's case, I will admit I don't know too much about the DLC in that game aside from the zombie maps but the same applies here in that you don't need them all to enjoy the game mode but you might get more enjoyment out of one than the others.
Don't blame you for not giving to the hype. I play it and love it, and that's ok if you don't. I know it's flaws, and that is a big deterrent for most people, but I play because of the community. I play because my friend and my brother play it, but every time I hear someone complain, I hope that bungie gets their crap together so more people can have the same fun I have.
SOMA is an example of making good use of dialogue during transitional periods. Simon is faced with a significant existential crisis so every time there's downtime it feels natural for him to talk through it with Catherine. Through this the game is able to more deeply explore the themes of identity in the game.
As a lead writer for a game I thank you for this. But my question is what about games with text based dialogue? Ones that don't have voice actors. Does this still hold up or are there any tweaks to it.
+William John Goodwater Generally these ideas should be able to be transferred to text based narratives, however you may also want to try and search for good examples of text based narratives in Morrowind and some of the more story driven JRPG's because they could provide excellent examples of text based dialogue. Also can I ask, what's the game about?
I feel like inquisition's lines of banter between your companions that randomly happen is a good example, like Iron Bull with Dorian, or simply Varric with Casandra, it adds to the characters, can comment on the world, and encourages you to switch up your party.
"What does this line tell me about the characters?" Saints Row 3: The entire "going to the store singalong with Pierce" scene. The entire scene does NOTHING for the gameplay, but it sets such a mood and sense of actual interpersonal attachment that it is one of my favorite parts of that entire game.
Whenever this issue comes up, I am always reminded of Mafia II, and in particular of a small and insignificant part of the game, where the protagonist and his friends drive down from a funeral at night, drunk, listinging to the radio and singing along. Small and insignificant, but one of the greatest pieces of writing in a video game I had ever seen
Yes yes yes! I've been thinking about why I can't seem to get hooked by video game stories all that often, but I've never been able to put it into actual words. It looks like you guys are doing just that, and for that I thank you! At some point, I'm going to go back through some of games I've played and ask these four questions, assuming I don't forget. But I feel like there's something deeper going on. I feel like in some games, the writers aren't even trying to create a story in the first place, because they expect you to be too pre-occupied with the gameplay to care. And as someone who has never felt that way, and thus needs that extra element to ensure my enjoyment of the game, I guess I've been disappointed more often than not. Sorry if you've already covered that topic or plan to do so in the future, or if I'm just entirely wrong. Just felt like putting my two cents out there.
This may fit into the category of lines being "just so artistically beautiful", but I think another function you can aim for is lines that build atmosphere of the scene-creepy, tense, upbeat, etc.
One of the most interesting storytelling tools in gaming is the banter in dragon age in my opinion. It fits more dialogue into the game since it doesn't interrupt the gameplay and it does a great job of setting up the relationships between the different companions. Inquisition in particular does a great job of that since tthere is a wide variety of different little dialogues, often taking into account all three companions you have with you.
@6:16 I think Xcom does a pretty good job with this during the loading screens before and after a mission. Central officer bradford will speak to the troops in the skyranger, offering them some advice along with hints on what the mission will be like; whether it's an urban environment with lots of cover, or a rural one with sparse cover and lots of open space.
eh... he makes up for it by having enough words that you still get a shit ton of story. 1,358,805 words by the end of the story, or about 1.3 times the entire harry potter series.
I'd argue humour is not throwaway, and many seemingly throwaway stuff are either character development or checkov guns anyway. source: read Homestuck. All of it.
Another great example of not using throwaway lines is, in my opinion, the new God of War, especially after meeting Mimir. Whenever you need to go to another place by boat, Mimir will always tell stories to fill the time, and these stories aren't useless. You learn so much from the characters and places that by the time you finish the game you have so much more knowledge of the relationships etc.
This is a nice trick I learned playing paper RPGs, instead of going to a room to say some dialogue or introduce the world, the brief walk to the room can add so much to the narrative... Most dungeon masters leave the dialogue to the "inside room" while if you do it on the way if feels less artificial
I would like to thank you guys for putting out an episode on this topic right before I start my Games & Narrative class at University. You have probably saved me quite a bit of time and frustration.
Problem- There is a difference between how you calculated words per minute for games versus how it is done for films and television. I noticed it in the words you used on my 100th viewing of this episode! "120 Words per minute of dialogue". It's WPM only while people are talking. While characters talk less in video games, while they're talking the WPM would be about the same. That's how I heard it, anyway. What do you think? I love this show. Listen to your episodes every day.
I remember when I first started to watch your channel. I was in school and the teacher put on one of your videos, I think it was how to make a good game in historical board game class. Ever since then, I loved your videos and watch them every day you upload. Keep up the good work!
i cant agree w/ this one of my favourite things in Wizardry 8 was the meaningless party banter, it made it feel like I was actually part of an adventuring party instead of just an undefined "blob" (the genre is often called "blobber" or similar for a reason). I've been trying to find another enjoyable game that does that and have failed to do so.
I loved your characterisation of "The Ghost" in this video. It reminded me so much of claptrap, the way he shouts "MOON WIZARD!" and throws confetti, and how peeved the "player" looks.
Something else the Witcher 3 does with transitional dialoge is that if you run up to an objective and people are talking, it's often somewhat important to what's going on. It could even give you some context for a major decision you'll have to make in only a few minutes. I found myself running to the objective, then stopping just as I heard the person talking so I didn't miss anything, and when you can do that it is quite something.
True, but I think it is a bit of an oversight on the part of the developers. If there is crucial information for the player, why make it so easy to miss and why make it so that you have to walk excrutiatingly slowly to get to hear it?
These are my favorite types of EC episodes, where two games are contrasted to highlight a point. One thing I do wish for you guys to do though is to write out a couple of the lines of dialogue from a Destiny scene and from a Witcher 3 scene. I know they're super popular so lots of people know what you mean but I've played neither so I just have to take your word for it. That's my 2 cents, thanks for the episodes guys. Glad you're back =D
Mass Effect 3 actually did this really well. I love how on your missions the crew you brought with you would comment on the events and surroundings, and the comments would be different depending on who you brought. Sometimes, you'd even learn something new! And other times you got to do some amusing flirting with your romantic partner while the other teammate groaned. I thought ME3 was great for giving more engaging time with the characters, even on missions and during downtown.
an episode on game writing and not one reference to Bastion? that game was literally the best thing ever thanks to the narration being clever enough whilst telling a story AND explaining things to the player at once.
KaletheQuick yes but reaching those who can actually make a difference in these company's is nearly impossible... and don't say just tweet them... i hope that almost everyone knows that if somone is more important than your average joe they have most likely someone doing PR for them... and the chance the pr guy gets something to the person is small at best
+KaletheQuick Really ? I think their motivation is making money first....and nothing else second. Starting from the moment they sold out to microsoft with Halo1.
*Obligatory Undertale comment * This is probably why I like the Snowdin arc best in the entire game. Every line Sans and Papyrus say - even what looks like tutorial text at the time - tells you more about one or both of them, so by the time you reach the town, you really feel like you know them, and want to get to know them even better.
While i don't doubt that Dan tried his best to count the WPM for the 3 games he played. I'd like to extrapolate a bit on how difficult it is to accurately count or measure WPM in a video game. In a movie or a tv show, you can just watch the entire movie or the entire episode, and count from beginning to end, and you should by all means get the same verifiable number over and over again no matter how many times you test it. However in a video game it's not so simple, especially not when we're dealing with the 3 games Dan used as his example. Because even if you count from the game's beginning to the games end, the pacing at which you play the game, is going to have a massive impact on the wpm. Do you play back to back story heavy missions? Do you grind or do side quests? Do you play gwent or similar mini-games? While some games are obviously more linear than others, in general you have enough agency in any given one to change the pacing massively, something as simple as dying/losing and having to start a fight/encounter or level over, is going to have an impact on the WPM especially if it's a boss fight, that when beaten is followed by a plot heavy cutscene. This of course, doesn't make video games impossible to measure, but i think there's a lot more variables one has to take into consideration.
+Verbal Learning i will assume (so take me with a grain of salt) that the WPM count was mostly an average ratio rather than an actual word by word count
As a writer myself, this is probably the most accurate take on this topic I've ever seen. There's *so* much wasted writing in AAA games that it makes me sad :/
That tells you something about the driver. If the game can do that, it might also let you see (or choose) your character's reaction, telling you something about the main character.
That specific line *could* be used as a method of exploring more about the impatience and arrogance of the character, but as the character was already poorly written that's bad
+ThalesII Doesn't change the fact that Destiny doesn't use the dialogue it has effectively. Sure, Destiny has its Grimoire to fill in all the backstory. But apparently you need to go onto website to find that out. Meaning it is not _part_ of the game, and thus doesn't count. Is it too much to ask that information about a game's world and narrative be conveyed within the bounds of the game itself?
Hi guys! Great video! I really love your channel and have learned a lot about the inner workings of games. I am starting to appreciate good games even more. The only request I have, is if it would be possible to have "extended" versions of some of your videos? Because many times I feel like the subject matter has a lot of potential for more. And if not possible, how about putting on the description some links to other videos, websites, books, etc. with more information?Thanks!
Well, it depends on the game. Have you seen how much story games like the legend of heroes: trails in the sky; corpse party; undertale and pretty much any visual novel games have? they can beat many tv show with amount of content alone, not to mention the quality.
+Eduardo Uchoa Visual Novels are a whole different story, since the typical VN is exactly what it says on the tin: A story with some CG images and different character sprites.
+Eduardo Uchoa Visual Novels are a whole different story, since the typical VN is exactly what it says on the tin: A story with some CG images and different character sprites.
+Eduardo Uchoa Are you really comparing games that have nothing but text and choosing text for interaction to games that have actual gameplay? Because of course the former will have more words, that's literally ALL they are. Not that it's a bad thing but in a way VNs aren't really games so much as interactive novels. Heck we can throw in Choice of Robots, Sabres of Infinity or Lords of Aswick while we are at it if we will start talking about games that have lotsa words.
If it provides interaction, then it's a game. It's like saying Dragon's lair is not a game, but a cartoon because all you do is press a buttom when the game tells you to.
Eduardo Uchoa Visual Novels stretch the definition of "game". Visual Novels are in a category of their own. They are technically games, but only barely, and are usually categorized separately from proper games. You can't compare the games mentioned in this video to a visual novel like Fate/Stay Night or Higurashi. The latter two's "interaction" is just clicking to advance the text, and maybe the occasional choice.
One game I find did this really well is GTA V, more specifically the radio stations you can listen to while driving a vehicle. You spend a lot of time driving in that game, so that was a really good idea. The content of the radio "broadcasts" is a mix of all sorts of music, funny adverts and news which is very often influenced by the storyline. Sometimes I even stay in a vehicle when arriving at a destination while listening to a radio story or ad I found interesting. And I found one of my favourite songs on the GTA in-game radio XD. Of course, GTA V did have a ridiculously large budget, so take that as you will.
I am convinced games are superior to any other art form there is not because they are somehow better at delivering the narrative the artists "wrote" but because games allow the audience to create their own narrative and experience it! Does anyone agree?
SquallTheBlade But if what you said was true you'd prefer movies to games always! For example what's your favorite game narrative -wise and ill prove that the reason you prefer to _play_ the game rather than watch it as a long video made by the developers is because the game gives you certain freedom to change the narrative no video can!
+Anton Adelson It's apples and oranges. Different forms of art tell stories in different ways and no single way is superior to another. There are some stories that could never be told as well through another medium. Books like House of Leaves or games like The Stanley Parable use the specific strengths of their medium so well and so thoroughly that they could never truly be adapted to another art form. All forms of art are unique enough in how they tell stories that you could never objectively say that one is superior to another. They're incomparable.
I remember in fallout 4, when my companions talked it was always about something to build the world, like talking about the capital wasteland and its current status now. That told me the affect of my other characters action in fallout 3 and established the back story of the companion as it shows they have traveled from DC at some point.
SOMA did this so well I thought. I looked forward more the quiet sections between each 'gameplay' bit because it was all full of stuff that showed what world you were in, what the people in it did, how they felt, and just set the mood really fucking well.
To limit story telling down to words... Thats an interesting and very limited view on storytelling. Its a large factor but have you seen the first 30 mins of films such as Wall-E and Up? heck even Mario and most plat formers show things like progression through level design. TF2 uses posters and, again level design to show whats up. Their characters even in their design tells stories.
+Tepene Marsden Good point. It's harder for games to pull this off though, as alot of level design cues could be totally lost on the average player if the camera doesn't point at it and go "HEY LOOK I AM AN IMPORTANT LORE/THING"
See that is where its done badly. A great way to tell stories is to tell it organically, in a way that doesn't feel like you are being told anything. Dark Souls is great like this, it has heaps going on, that you just absorb and it builds a larger picture without a cinematic, exposition scene or anything of the like. So its not that it gets missed or is harder, its a matter of when and where you put that information. E.g Having a book hidden in a library of a village is a lame way of doing it. But having local townsfolk bring up different parts of the story in their own way with hints and assumed pre-knowedge (from character POV) can help it build it in a way that reflects the real world more so.
Even in how the buildings are built, who lives in them, how many are living in them and what they are made of can tell you heaps about the current status of a village
This is one thing I really like about the Tales series. Skits - little side conversations that pop up when you see or do certain things - provide lots of characterization without slowing down the game too much. I feel like mechanics like that are how you get across more plot. Instead of gigantic cutscenes, give players little incentives or bursts of small yet interesting things.
As somebody currently writing their own game, I really, REALLY wish you guys gave an example of what a Throwaway line actually is, especially since I've never played Destiny. I guess I don't really understand how you can have a line of dialogue that doesn't say anything about the character who says it or it's directed to or the world if it's not instructional. Like, what else is there in a game to have been written about? What was the dialogue?
+SeriousPeopleStudios Maybe something like "catchphrases" that you heard a thousand times before? They don't serve any purpose and are just there as filler. Not to mention cause they're reused the developers just seem lazy. Other than that there's also a type of dialogue that tells the player nothing new about the character: Imagine the playable character is the leader of some task force team. Whenever one of his men says something to let the player know they are under said characters command then it's pretty much a completely useless line. The player already knew that why hammer it in? As filler of course.
+SeriousPeopleStudios Think of it like this. A throw away line is when a character suddenly says something that dosen't advance the plot, is unfunny or "stupid", and dosen't build upon the world in any way, shape, or form, and only serves to fill the silence. A example of these lines done right is Dragon Age Origins, where characters such as your buddy Alistar comments on a mage tower filled with demons. "See? This is why i don't trust mages, they allways get themselfs into these kinds of situations, and then the templar has to save them." That told us a bit more about his character. Where as if he said "Wizard's look's like moons", that would count as a throw away line, since it pretty much comes out of nowhere, does not to advance the plot, is not deep or philosophical, and is not funny at all.
I get when a line does tell us about stuff, but I'm still looking for examples about when the line doesn't. It's fascinating. I have taken a look at some videos about Destiny and Ghost, and I think I'm beginning to understand what EC means by "throwaway line". The dialogue in that game does not offer a lot of information.
This is why Portal is so brilliant: it combines instructional text with character exposition about GladOS, and in most cases, does something for the furthering of the plot, namely, the player becoming more and more uncomfortable around this A.I., probably ending up in complete loathing by the end. Great positive example. Also, kudos as usual to you guys at EC. Great job! :)
I feel like Mass Effect had varying levels of success for this. Examples of doing it wrong would be some throwaway lines/instruction text going place to place in the main story missions. Example of doing it right, oddly, in the elevators in ME 1. I would actually try to think of which squadmates I hadn't had in an elevator together on the Citadel so I could hear new interactions.
BioWare is REALLY good at this kind of casual dialogue. Dragon Age is my go-to example; I tried out every possible combination of all the followers I could get my hands on in each game, not to test for the ideal party makeup, but because I YEARNED for more of that tasty, tasty dialogue. Even the 'boring' ones, like Blackwall in Inquisition or Wynne in Origins (YMMV on both), had some really touching, funny, or just insightful scenes. Pairing Blackwall with Cole before the "Here Lies The Abyss" chapter gives some really great foreshadowing to a major spoiler that happens after that chapter is completed. Sometimes the lines seemed "throwaway" in the textbook sense - followers would snark or snipe at each other to no real purpose, like Alistair and Morrigan in Origins or Anders and Fenris in II - but those lines still convey the relationship between these characters in a clear, concise, and usually funny way, often developing the more you take the same characters on missions together. When Varric started calling Dorian "Sparkler" in Inquisition, my heart melted a little because Varric only nicknames his friends and... ...I just really love Dragon Age.
One of the things I passively admire about Extra Credits is how not every animated character is white. This isn't a huge deal for me personally, but it is nice to see an artist drawing people of different colors when the art itself isn't the main focus of the media produced. I personally default to creating all white characters without a second thought, and feel like many other creative types do so as well, and this practice is rather stupid, but easy to commit to. Seeing Extra Credits go against this is simply awesome. You guys are the best gaming channel on UA-cam in my opinion.
eternal kaori agree! i like this aspect of EC and other artists, too! sometimes it's not the main point of the video but just seeing people with many race and nationalities together, i just love it
+MayanExpression Yeah, it definitely varies. I just think the "general" figure is way off. A lot of AAA titles are let downs now. The 3 games mentioned were cherry picked nice examples of triple A titles surprising by going against the grain.
+Xenon I was just using the numbers given on the video, maybe I generalized it a bit. I played some short RPGs like Child of Light or Undertale but those aren't AAA games.
Borderlands 2 is really amazing at this most of the time and them it falls on its face at other. Just the banter Jack spouts at you through the game durring a to b moments do this wonderfully.
This is probably just a really personal issue, but I really hate how destiny is such a talked about game. The only reason this game is impactful is because of the ludicrous hype and marketing and the following general dissapointment. But honestly, destiny is nothing special, nothing remarkable and should be completely disregarded if you ask me. I do of course realise the following: It isnt completely terrible, and enjoyable to some. It makes for a good example because everybody knows about it. But that's the thing that pisses me of a little, destiny gets so much credit, discussion and hate because it was marketed, hyped and had a well known dev, not for any of the actual substance.
You guys ever hear about "show, don't tell?" Games have less words because they focus on visual storytelling. -cough-Silent Hill 2-cough- Talky games are just visual novels.
"Show, don't tell" is not a universal rule. It depends on the kind of game you're playing, how deep or complex your narrative is, what you want to say about your world and its denizens. People point to Dark Souls as this shining example of visual storytelling, and it does an excellent job of it (particularly Dark Souls III), but the only way to really get what's going on, the history of the world and its characters, is to read item descriptions. In short, words. Otherwise you may glean certain things from the world, environs, or characters, but not EVERYthing.
The Portal games are excellent examples of this. GLaDOS speaks to the player almost the entire game, and her dialogue, while hilarious, also gives insight into the game world, such as the purpose of the Aperture facilities and GLaDOS's own motivations.
Dragon Age Inquisition is a good example of how to fill empty space. You learn so much about your party and how they feel about each other during these empty spaces when you have nothing else to focus on. That's at least one thing I did find great about that game
Shadows of Mordor is a good example of how to do both exposition and instruction in transitional dialogue. Very often, after starting a mission, you need to go another locale (or several other locales). While traversing the distances, the characters are almost always talking. About the mission, about the goal, about why they are doing it, etc. And it's never forced either. It always feels so conversational and natural. It makes the game all the better for it.
An informative, game development oriented channel with positive outlook on the industry backed with cute and funny animations, and voiced by a Salarian? Subscribed!
Good show as always, but I really liked some the art in this episode. Something I found particularly funny was the "packing more narrative" graphic. The face on the game box is terrific.
I love that you mentioned that scene from the Witcher 3. After that scene, which I found incredible, I would make a point of not getting from point A to point B too quickly for fear of missing out on dialogue between Geralt and whoever he was with.
I'd like to see EC cover how the other method of video game storytelling works. That other method being the text dump/codex. I always find it interesting how quickly people end up lost on context due to failure to read in games that don't directly tell a story.
"I don't have time to explain why I don't have time to explain"
That really helps with telling a story, thanks bungie.
There are reasons we just needed to wait (the darkness)
100th like
I dont mean to be offtopic but does someone know of a way to log back into an Instagram account?
I was dumb forgot the password. I love any assistance you can give me!
@Malachi Oakley Instablaster ;)
@@malachioakley3083 Nah, sorry.
2:26 - I don't know why, but I laughed so hard at the animation about "flat storytelling" :D hilarious!
+Mario Krastanov - You're not the only one who laughed :3
+Mario Krastanov Cardboard games! :D
BoroFreak oh, you! :P
+Mario Krastanov Me too! I think it's because he's still smiling after he falls.
+Mario Krastanov I was just about to write a comment about my exact same reaction, but here it is!
I used to be a part of the narrative like you. But then I took a throwaway line in the knee.
DAMN YOU GUARDS!
+A Toaster.Inc Brand Toaster oblivion they would give you directions, skyrim they dont care.
Sean Rea I'm glad they took an arrow, TO THE KNEE.
+MicManGuy Dude, it's ben four years. That meme's gotta be dead by now, please!
Stale meme
The artist really did a number on this episode, its probably one of the prettiest extra credit episode yet.
Great work!
6:20 Shout out to the Physic Developer that can write with his mind.
glad I'm not the only one who noticed that.
XD
+Patrick Johnson that's how efficient a Developer needs to be with the writing, not even need to waste time in sending signals to the hand
why write when you can use telekenisis
why have a left hand when you can sacrifice it for telekinisis
I feel like assassins creed syndicate makes a different mistake yet it was enough to break the immersion. In ac: syndicate they throw many lines during traversal but it a lot of times those words were to much for such a short trip, i have had to wait in front of the destination many times so the characters end their conversation and that made the experiencie a lot worse in my opinion.
Interesting. +Pendragon mentioned a similar thing in Red Dead Redemption, but he enjoyed the dialogue enough to want to slow down, even though it was optional. Just goes to show the difference good dialogue makes.
+〈-thatguyoverthere haha, I do remember in Red Dead Redemption, when someone started talking I'd be like "Oh shit, how close are we to the destination?? EVERYBODY SLOW DOWN!"
+Leandro Amarillo They also wink at the audience far, far too much, but that's a different problem entirely.
+Leandro Amarillo I remember a similar issue on GTA IV. Arriving at my destination with another character in the passenger seat and awkwardly waiting for them to finish talking before getting out of the car.
+Arturo Gutierrez GTA V fixes it by only waiting until the current line is finished. GTA V does a lot of things right, like picking up a conversation where you left off when interrupted. In RDR, if you bumped into them while they're talking they won't repeat that conversation.
I feel like Red Dead Redemption is another good use of transition scenes. Every horse ride with another character is filled with world and relationship building dialog. I purposely slowed down when they happened so I wouldn't miss them.
+Pendragon I was literally just thinking about RDR. I never wanted to skip those horse rides or wagon rides with other characters because there was so much meaningful dialogue there that added so much to the game. Totally with you! :D
+Pendragon Very true. It was those moments that gave more life to each character involved. It can make a huge difference in how you experience that world and it's characters.
+Pendragon The GTA games also do that really well I feel. When you're driving from point A to point B usually there's some character with you who will talk with you about what they're doing and how they know the character and whatever, but it was a lot more powerful in RDR yeah
+Zondac AC also do that.
+Pendragon I found that game frustrating because it always seemed like they kept having the same conversation. "Blah blah Redemption, blah blah criminal, blah blah Humanism, blah blah."
At a certain point all the charm of the game started to leave, I was tired of John Marsden. I couldn't skip those scenes and once the mission was over I had to ride in dead silence clear back across Mexico for another mission that was 90% riding a horse and having a conversation.
I love this series so much. It's rare to see a UA-cam channel not resort to ranting to convince us that they're right, and rather uses actual examples and teaches us how to see this stuff for ourselves.
We spend so much time with our games - why do so many feel like they have nothing to say?
Destiny also literally removed its story. That has been confirmed.
star wars the old republic have 120 word per minute
Not disputing that Destiny is a little shit, but why is dialogue so important for narrative? I get it in most mediums but I feel it's far less important in games than moves or TV. I mean in TV, movies and games you can tell an amazing story and craft an immersive world without a single word. We have the advantage of gameplay: Dark Soul is a game set in a dark, brutal and punishing world, and so the gameplay is slow, heavy and very punishing.
+louisross980 Because dialogue is the simplest way for two characters to interact, which is the foundation for good character development. Yeah, the interactivity is a huge part of a game's narrative but like they say in the video, you're not always going to be able to interact with the world.
louisross980 But dialogue is an integral, essential part of so many games! If you're talking to someone, ever, just once, it's dialogue. I don't understand why you don't understand why dialogue is important; the gang has talked so much about how the OTHER elements of a game work to make story, like atmosphere, gameplay and, well, cutscenes, so they clearly understand this, but in fact it's dialogue that most games prefer to rely on to build much of their most important elements. I mean, tell me this - what would Diablo the series be without people telling you Diablo himself is in fact the cause of all the destruction you fight on a regular basis? What would be the point of killing Diablo without that one single line of dialogue? Would there be much of any other way to make a shadowy figure without an incredibly cartoony moment in there? No not every game needs it, but most games have it and if a game HAS it, at all, it'd better utilize it well.
Yep, a lot of destiny's "Story" is told through grimoire cards and other collectable items, which is a shame, because there is a lot of really interesting stuff. Some of the ghosts throw away lines are kind of funny though "I live in your backpack" always makes me laugh
+OTCStitches MOON WIZARDS!!! *Silence*
Apparently the Taken King in Destiny is transgender but the game never says so.Its buried in text logs on a website somewhere.
Baylor Collins I remember reading that.....somewhere. About how all wizards start as female and only the strongest becomes king. I have no clue honestly.
+jacob farwell Easy, he is evil and doesn't care about humanity. He even killed some guardians sent by the Vanguard. Zavala said so in the S.A.B.E.R. strike.
+Jasper Daugaard Loses its funny factor when you realize Bungie suppressed that line from appearing in the retail game... 99% of the time.
For some reason, the first scene that came to mind when talking about dialogue telling us about characters, the world, etc, was in Saints Row the Third, with The Boss and Pierce singing along to the radio in some side missions, and just showing that they're damn good friends, and just showing, in a strange, Saints Row-ey way, a snippet of relaxed, normal life between the seriousness of the gunfights and main story, and the strangeness of hitting mascots over the head with giant purple bats shaped like male genitalia.
Plus Zach and Bobby (the announcers for the gameshow-esque Genki minigames) have probably had more characterization than many entire casts of characters in some games. For example, the dialogue in the Mind Over Murder minigames telling us about why they're even in the simulation in the first place, and about the main villain of the game.
Now that I think about it, the Saints Row games have a lot of good use of dialogue providing characterization and world building. Huh.
I like how they used the cover of MGSV with Kojima's name on on it rather than the one that was used after Konami struck his name off of it. Nice one, Extra Credits...
You know when I first gave destiny a try I chose a warlock Exo, space magic and sentient robots seemed like an amazing combination. However some nagging questions just kept lingering every single time I took a look at my character. Whats an Exo, are they just like people, what makes them different from the vex, do they have emotions, are they really not going to tell me anything? During the entire slog of the story I learned nothing, same goes with the Awoken and space magic.
The only information I ever received was when you first pick your character with the little bio telling me I'm a robot built for war. Gee, thanks for doing the absolute bare minimum, truly this is the Destiny experience.
+ZombieMonkey7 The exo have emotions and were built by people before the war happened. The vex have no emotion and live to serve their gods orders.
The grimoire tries really hard to fill this void. Only problem is it feels like a handbook with no connection between pages.
+ZombieMonkey7 Exos are essentially human minds running on a different platforms, and at least some of them actually used to be human. The definitely have a emotion. The Vex are a completely different thing.
There's a lot of lore and story that give everything in the Destiny universe context, and delicious mysteries and interesting subjects brought up that ripe for theorizing and exploration, but sadly it's all relegated to the grimoire cards, which was an awful mistake.
+Eliakith The problem with the grimoire is that it is completely disconnected from the main experience. You find a neat piece of vista, you want to know everything about it, but instead of giving you the information they give you a notice to check the grimoire for more.
But Destiny is a multiplayer experience - how many people that would have loved to know more actually have friends that would be okay with them stopping every 5 to 10 minutes to bone up on the background story?
By the time the gaming session is over, you might have forgotten some of the things you are curious about, you might instantly jump into another game, or you might just have given up on finding out more altogether.
It was a stunningly bad design decision, really. Especially with Dinklebot RIGHT THERE following you around. Spending what feels like hours "unlocking" "hacking" or what have you, where he would have had plenty of time telling you a neat story.
+ZombieMonkey7 yeah, screw bungee for not giving us a complete timeline of the exo race for reasons
Destiny has what may be the worst line of exposition in anything ever:
"My motive is simple loyalty, to a people, a queen, a sister."
Yeah, he basically just stared directly into the camera and told us his fucking character traits and then his relationship to the queen. The whole cutscene had me cringing at how stilted and contrived the dialogue was.
+Bennings I allways go to Dragon Age or Knights of the old Republic when it comes to story telling.
+Jasper Daugaard shoutout to KOTOR and its sequal...WOOT!
***** I'm weird like that, since i don't play many games that are masterpieces in storytelling.
i played both of them a year ago and raged pretty hard lol.
***** I cheesed my way through many of the parts of the games and I don't feel bad one bit since, since it's so old, that it felt like a breath of fresh air when i entered the awesome world of Dragon Age Origins, not counting all the bad as^ mods for it.
kind of off topic,but my main problem with borderlands is tha because the gameplay is so chaotic and action packed that there is little to no "silent time" they could use for dialogue and stuff. many portions of the clever writing and interesting world they build is lost because they decide to say that during a giant battle
I thank god for having the true vault hunter mode,because picking a guzerker in bl2 and nisha in the pre sequel didnt help the story(though i did understand it and the borderlands franchise is still my favorite of all time).
+Wednesday's Serial but many of the dialogue was given after you completed an objective(wich usually was in a battle environement)
120 words per minute?That's two words for every second! I didn't realize TV shows were so talky. (Well, this is referring to live-action. I'm guessing with animated TV shows, the word count is somewhat less, considering there is a lot of visual humor or action scenes without much dialogue. Then, there's that episode of Samurai Jack where there's only one short sentence spoken at the end.)
I think he said “120 words per minute OF DIALOGUE”, so if not much time is spent on dialogue, then the actual WPM is much lower.-v(“/)v-
I'd be very interested to see how you rate GlaDOS' lines in Portal 1 and 2. Since most of it is only sarcasm or misinformation. At the beginning you can say that it serves to express GlaDOS' persona, but about the rest of the game? It didn't struck me as a bad game dialogue-wise, quite the opposite actually!
But it seems like it wouldn't be "rated" very high by the general advices given here :)
Either way, very good episode as always :)
Those lines are funny and let you know more about the character so they fit. It was a way to keep you from feeling alone as you move from one puzzle to another, building up to the actual big moments.
+Altrue19 Somehow I expected that someone would bring up Portal (2). In my opinion, the sarcasm is funny, so it serves at least the purpose to entertain the player. And once GlaDOS' persona has been established, it has to stay just as snarky just to stay in character. Also, it's not as if GlaDOS doesn't deliver any narrative. She does, it's just quite subtle (also, I think the instructional dialog outweighs the narrative dialog). Other than that, I can't really come up with more ideas for arguments to defend Portal with this episode in mind. Maybe the next episode will give us another lever for discussion. ;)
+Altrue19
I think it has to do with the fact that some of her lines are genuinly funny, and also the fact that the game environment starts giving you clues that she's lying, once you figure that out there becomes intrigue in the story and distrust with Glados, you're now a lot more engaged with what's she saying as you try to figure out what kind of scheme she has for you in the end.
+Altrue19 In that case, I'd say that Glados's lines fulfill the criteria of being funny, telling you about Glados, and telling you about the world you live in. Many of Glados's lines serve to hammer home that you're an expendable lab rat in a highly amoral lab facility that is being run by an insnae AI with a threadbare understanding of how the human mind works.
With that said, I've never played Destiny and would like to hear some examples of these throwaway lines.
+Altrue19 I think throw away lines are only bad, when they get in the way of your story/world building.
Portals world is a small space with limited characters and a very straight forward narrative fitting to a puzzle game. So funny throw away lines are good.
Destiny has a gigantic world full of alien races and characters and as an rpg it needs to focus on the narrative. So them wasting precious word space is a problem.
I love these episodes about writing. I'm a writer myself, and it's super helpful to learn about this kind of thing, even if literature is a different kind of medium.
Yeah, all dialogues should have a purpuse in the game world, characters, etc.
But sometimes, a line raises a question to use not in the game, but istead a question we should ask in the real world, in our everyday lifes.
"Should anything between two slices of bread be called a sandwich?"
"So, by this logic, a bred bum is a bread sandwich"
+Felipe Cyrineu *Sneak up in my power armor, go ham with my energy rifle*
"What are politics? Should I care?" -- Chao, Sonic Advance
So a projector sandwich?
What game was the sandwich question from?
I’m rewatching this while playing FFXV and your point made at 5:50 ish was handled really well I think. I love how when driving the side characters will bring up something they want to do, be it taking a picture, or pointing out a camp site to spend the night at. I think it really makes the game and characters feel ‘alive’
"I like shorts! They're comfortable and easy to wear!"
Throwaway, or artistically valuable / funny?
yes
Funny.
Throwaway so ridiculous that became funny
I don't plan on being a game designer, not am I even a particularly avid gamer, but the concepts explored in this series are so thought-provoking, and so applicable to every other form of media most of the time, that I just can't help but keep watching it. Extra Credits is definitely my favorite game theory channel. Keep up the good work!
Consider Knights of the Old Republic for a great example of "meaning dialogue". Every time you say something meaningful in conversation, it will not only impact your character, but also, depending on who is with you, your party members' reactions. Do something evil? Good characters will comment. It's not just a throwaway comment, though, since the delivery manages to also create a feeling of friction between conflicting characters.
+Avram Levitt Meatbag
Confirmation: I am an organic meatbag.
+Avram Levitt such fantastic games, I don't know why they don't have remasters. I would love to play this on my PS4. I do own them on steam, and yes I have an Xbox PC controller, but having it on the console again..idk it just feels different even though it really isn't. Still fantastic games no matter what you play them on. (I owned them on the original Xbox).
+Avram Levitt To be fair, RPGs are known for the dialogue-centered gameplay. Mainly it's a western RPG thing and it seems to be dying out and being replaced with more streamlined dialogue.
This makes me think about why I love Transistor so much, in terms of its story - there are many lines that could be throwaway lines, but they always hint at something that the player hasn't discovered yet, making you always curious about what happens next.
"What do you expect, a snappy one liner?"
"Mrrrr?"
"Oh "
The transitional dialogues in the Wild Hunt are so powerful many developers would no dare to 'waste' them for a transition and would rather create a whole cutscene for them. And that is where they fail - they boost the attention in situations that do not require that boost, while not even trying to forge the overall greatness out of little moments that we could care about. Great observation +Extra Credits!
I'm so glad I didn't hop on the Destiny train. it looked awful with a bunch of empty promises. you can argue all day that I just don't understand but you should check what stores are selling it for.
+ThePunisher1028 I hated the game before it was released and well it happened and it sucked hard.
+ThePunisher1028 The main problem with destiny was that they tried to sell an unfinished game at full price while at the same time selling you the rest of what should've been covered in the initial cost at the same price, you essentially pay for the game twice if you want the whole experience. This is why I think DLC is a huge problem in the gaming industry, because it gives companies an excuse to rush a game while they just say "Oh, we'll patch that bug or add that piece of content later" and then never do or when they do it either falls flat onto its face or comes at an additional cost to the player. But, that's not saying that DLC is bad it is more of what has become of DLC as time went on that has become bad. Games like Smash 4 and CoD:WaW have good DLC, you aren't required to buy their DLC to get the full experience of the game and can play without ever looking at the DLC packs. With Smash 4 you can play the game to its fullest without buying the DLC with the fighters that come with the main game but at the same time you can buy one of the DLC characters if you want to and you won't be overpowered due to the characters having natural counters. In WaW's case, I will admit I don't know too much about the DLC in that game aside from the zombie maps but the same applies here in that you don't need them all to enjoy the game mode but you might get more enjoyment out of one than the others.
I bought a meat grinder instead, same experience but with more not getting fat when I grind
Don't blame you for not giving to the hype. I play it and love it, and that's ok if you don't. I know it's flaws, and that is a big deterrent for most people, but I play because of the community. I play because my friend and my brother play it, but every time I hear someone complain, I hope that bungie gets their crap together so more people can have the same fun I have.
+ThePunisher1028 Destiny sucked and you were right to avoid it
SOMA is an example of making good use of dialogue during transitional periods. Simon is faced with a significant existential crisis so every time there's downtime it feels natural for him to talk through it with Catherine. Through this the game is able to more deeply explore the themes of identity in the game.
As a lead writer for a game I thank you for this. But my question is what about games with text based dialogue? Ones that don't have voice actors. Does this still hold up or are there any tweaks to it.
Then just think of it in terms of 'words read per minute'. A bit more abstract, but the concept still holds.
+Throttle Kitty There are many other good and legitimate reasons not to include voice acting.
+William John Goodwater Generally these ideas should be able to be transferred to text based narratives, however you may also want to try and search for good examples of text based narratives in Morrowind and some of the more story driven JRPG's because they could provide excellent examples of text based dialogue. Also can I ask, what's the game about?
I feel like inquisition's lines of banter between your companions that randomly happen is a good example, like Iron Bull with Dorian, or simply Varric with Casandra, it adds to the characters, can comment on the world, and encourages you to switch up your party.
"What does this line tell me about the characters?"
Saints Row 3: The entire "going to the store singalong with Pierce" scene. The entire scene does NOTHING for the gameplay, but it sets such a mood and sense of actual interpersonal attachment that it is one of my favorite parts of that entire game.
Whenever this issue comes up, I am always reminded of Mafia II, and in particular of a small and insignificant part of the game, where the protagonist and his friends drive down from a funeral at night, drunk, listinging to the radio and singing along. Small and insignificant, but one of the greatest pieces of writing in a video game I had ever seen
15-40 hours?
Pokemon players with 300+ hours: pathetic.
Yes yes yes! I've been thinking about why I can't seem to get hooked by video game stories all that often, but I've never been able to put it into actual words. It looks like you guys are doing just that, and for that I thank you!
At some point, I'm going to go back through some of games I've played and ask these four questions, assuming I don't forget. But I feel like there's something deeper going on. I feel like in some games, the writers aren't even trying to create a story in the first place, because they expect you to be too pre-occupied with the gameplay to care. And as someone who has never felt that way, and thus needs that extra element to ensure my enjoyment of the game, I guess I've been disappointed more often than not.
Sorry if you've already covered that topic or plan to do so in the future, or if I'm just entirely wrong. Just felt like putting my two cents out there.
This may fit into the category of lines being "just so artistically beautiful", but I think another function you can aim for is lines that build atmosphere of the scene-creepy, tense, upbeat, etc.
Very cool episode. I love these breakdowns of why a game feels vibrant or flat, and what exactly went well or wrong.
I loved almost every line of Undertale~ (fanboy out)
Jerry.
"...you really like hot animals, don't you?"
One of the most interesting storytelling tools in gaming is the banter in dragon age in my opinion. It fits more dialogue into the game since it doesn't interrupt the gameplay and it does a great job of setting up the relationships between the different companions. Inquisition in particular does a great job of that since tthere is a wide variety of different little dialogues, often taking into account all three companions you have with you.
2:39 I want a "Kill the moon wizard! For reasons!" t-shirt.
Wrong time.
Darn rights!
This needs to be a thing!
3:40
@6:16 I think Xcom does a pretty good job with this during the loading screens before and after a mission. Central officer bradford will speak to the troops in the skyranger, offering them some advice along with hints on what the mission will be like; whether it's an urban environment with lots of cover, or a rural one with sparse cover and lots of open space.
Somebody needs to lecture Andrew Hussie about throw away lines.
eh... he makes up for it by having enough words that you still get a shit ton of story. 1,358,805 words by the end of the story, or about 1.3 times the entire harry potter series.
I'd argue humour is not throwaway, and many seemingly throwaway stuff are either character development or checkov guns anyway.
source: read Homestuck. All of it.
"Homestuck is about 85% of MSPA: 3036 days, 8126 pages, 14915 panels, 817925 words [includes 113628 transcribed] (166 [S]s, 4h12m18s)" -readmspa.org/stats/index.html#space
Another great example of not using throwaway lines is, in my opinion, the new God of War, especially after meeting Mimir. Whenever you need to go to another place by boat, Mimir will always tell stories to fill the time, and these stories aren't useless. You learn so much from the characters and places that by the time you finish the game you have so much more knowledge of the relationships etc.
Simple rule from theater I always remember: Every line must do at least 2 things or cut it.
This is a nice trick I learned playing paper RPGs, instead of going to a room to say some dialogue or introduce the world, the brief walk to the room can add so much to the narrative... Most dungeon masters leave the dialogue to the "inside room" while if you do it on the way if feels less artificial
It's a crime that bastion wasn't mentioned in this video.
Or transistor
I would like to thank you guys for putting out an episode on this topic right before I start my Games & Narrative class at University. You have probably saved me quite a bit of time and frustration.
Problem- There is a difference between how you calculated words per minute for games versus how it is done for films and television. I noticed it in the words you used on my 100th viewing of this episode!
"120 Words per minute of dialogue". It's WPM only while people are talking. While characters talk less in video games, while they're talking the WPM would be about the same.
That's how I heard it, anyway. What do you think? I love this show. Listen to your episodes every day.
Yeah, that definitely was way off. ō_ô
I remember when I first started to watch your channel. I was in school and the teacher put on one of your videos, I think it was how to make a good game in historical board game class. Ever since then, I loved your videos and watch them every day you upload. Keep up the good work!
I have no time to explain why I have no time to Explain
i cant agree w/ this one of my favourite things in Wizardry 8 was the meaningless party banter, it made it feel like I was actually part of an adventuring party instead of just an undefined "blob" (the genre is often called "blobber" or similar for a reason). I've been trying to find another enjoyable game that does that and have failed to do so.
What I have in my mind while watching this video is "True, true, true, true.."
I loved your characterisation of "The Ghost" in this video. It reminded me so much of claptrap, the way he shouts "MOON WIZARD!" and throws confetti, and how peeved the "player" looks.
Something else the Witcher 3 does with transitional dialoge is that if you run up to an objective and people are talking, it's often somewhat important to what's going on. It could even give you some context for a major decision you'll have to make in only a few minutes. I found myself running to the objective, then stopping just as I heard the person talking so I didn't miss anything, and when you can do that it is quite something.
True, but I think it is a bit of an oversight on the part of the developers. If there is crucial information for the player, why make it so easy to miss and why make it so that you have to walk excrutiatingly slowly to get to hear it?
These are my favorite types of EC episodes, where two games are contrasted to highlight a point. One thing I do wish for you guys to do though is to write out a couple of the lines of dialogue from a Destiny scene and from a Witcher 3 scene. I know they're super popular so lots of people know what you mean but I've played neither so I just have to take your word for it.
That's my 2 cents, thanks for the episodes guys. Glad you're back =D
Mass Effect 3 actually did this really well. I love how on your missions the crew you brought with you would comment on the events and surroundings, and the comments would be different depending on who you brought. Sometimes, you'd even learn something new! And other times you got to do some amusing flirting with your romantic partner while the other teammate groaned. I thought ME3 was great for giving more engaging time with the characters, even on missions and during downtown.
an episode on game writing and not one reference to Bastion?
that game was literally the best thing ever thanks to the narration being clever enough whilst telling a story AND explaining things to the player at once.
Sad part is, Bungie will never listen to this.
+KeybladeMasterSpike So send them a link.
+KaletheQuick as if they are going to click on video's sent by fans
+bowmanruto These people are surprisingly more reachable than you think.
KaletheQuick yes but reaching those who can actually make a difference in these company's is nearly impossible... and don't say just tweet them... i hope that almost everyone knows that if somone is more important than your average joe they have most likely someone doing PR for them... and the chance the pr guy gets something to the person is small at best
+KaletheQuick
Really ? I think their motivation is making money first....and nothing else second. Starting from the moment they sold out to microsoft with Halo1.
I know this is off topic, but I love that you keep putting some of my favorite songs from the Worlds Apart album in the endslate. So much ear candy!
*Obligatory Undertale comment *
This is probably why I like the Snowdin arc best in the entire game. Every line Sans and Papyrus say - even what looks like tutorial text at the time - tells you more about one or both of them, so by the time you reach the town, you really feel like you know them, and want to get to know them even better.
I'm so glad you guys are back from Christmas, my feed hasn't been quite the same without you :-)
While i don't doubt that Dan tried his best to count the WPM for the 3 games he played. I'd like to extrapolate a bit on how difficult it is to accurately count or measure WPM in a video game. In a movie or a tv show, you can just watch the entire movie or the entire episode, and count from beginning to end, and you should by all means get the same verifiable number over and over again no matter how many times you test it. However in a video game it's not so simple, especially not when we're dealing with the 3 games Dan used as his example. Because even if you count from the game's beginning to the games end, the pacing at which you play the game, is going to have a massive impact on the wpm. Do you play back to back story heavy missions? Do you grind or do side quests? Do you play gwent or similar mini-games? While some games are obviously more linear than others, in general you have enough agency in any given one to change the pacing massively, something as simple as dying/losing and having to start a fight/encounter or level over, is going to have an impact on the WPM especially if it's a boss fight, that when beaten is followed by a plot heavy cutscene.
This of course, doesn't make video games impossible to measure, but i think there's a lot more variables one has to take into consideration.
+Verbal Learning i will assume (so take me with a grain of salt) that the WPM count was mostly an average ratio rather than an actual word by word count
of course, but even then, the average WPM will still fluctuate more wildly in a game where you have choices as opposed to a movie or tv show.
As a writer myself, this is probably the most accurate take on this topic I've ever seen. There's *so* much wasted writing in AAA games that it makes me sad :/
What if in the middle of a long ride; the driver, out of nowhere, breaks out into a rap song?
That tells you something about the driver. If the game can do that, it might also let you see (or choose) your character's reaction, telling you something about the main character.
"I don't have time to explain why I don't have time to explain."
As a writing enthusiast, that line made... me... FURIOUS.
That specific line *could* be used as a method of exploring more about the impatience and arrogance of the character, but as the character was already poorly written that's bad
2015 came and went.
Where's Design Club!
Mr. Divery Moreover they're starting a new Sci-Fi show! I wonder what will happen to DC and EC. Cuz we still have a lot to do on video games.
Nice video and topic, yet again. The slides with the game being stuffed really cracked me up!
Story doesn't come exclusively from dialogue
True. But I'd say it's the most effective delivery system, though.
+ThalesII Doesn't change the fact that Destiny doesn't use the dialogue it has effectively.
Sure, Destiny has its Grimoire to fill in all the backstory. But apparently you need to go onto website to find that out. Meaning it is not _part_ of the game, and thus doesn't count. Is it too much to ask that information about a game's world and narrative be conveyed within the bounds of the game itself?
+ThalesII To quote MrBtongue: "the setting is the story." I highly suggest people to check out his video "The Shandification of Fallout"
+Shane Vincent Fallout really is a great example of showing the story, not telling it. :3
Ulakiest It depends on what Fallout you're talking about
Hi guys! Great video! I really love your channel and have learned a lot about the inner workings of games. I am starting to appreciate good games even more. The only request I have, is if it would be possible to have "extended" versions of some of your videos? Because many times I feel like the subject matter has a lot of potential for more. And if not possible, how about putting on the description some links to other videos, websites, books, etc. with more information?Thanks!
Well, it depends on the game. Have you seen how much story games like the legend of heroes: trails in the sky; corpse party; undertale and pretty much any visual novel games have? they can beat many tv show with amount of content alone, not to mention the quality.
+Eduardo Uchoa Visual Novels are a whole different story, since the typical VN is exactly what it says on the tin: A story with some CG images and different character sprites.
+Eduardo Uchoa Visual Novels are a whole different story, since the typical VN is exactly what it says on the tin: A story with some CG images and different character sprites.
+Eduardo Uchoa Are you really comparing games that have nothing but text and choosing text for interaction to games that have actual gameplay? Because of course the former will have more words, that's literally ALL they are. Not that it's a bad thing but in a way VNs aren't really games so much as interactive novels. Heck we can throw in Choice of Robots, Sabres of Infinity or Lords of Aswick while we are at it if we will start talking about games that have lotsa words.
If it provides interaction, then it's a game. It's like saying Dragon's lair is not a game, but a cartoon because all you do is press a buttom when the game tells you to.
Eduardo Uchoa Visual Novels stretch the definition of "game". Visual Novels are in a category of their own. They are technically games, but only barely, and are usually categorized separately from proper games. You can't compare the games mentioned in this video to a visual novel like Fate/Stay Night or Higurashi. The latter two's "interaction" is just clicking to advance the text, and maybe the occasional choice.
One game I find did this really well is GTA V, more specifically the radio stations you can listen to while driving a vehicle. You spend a lot of time driving in that game, so that was a really good idea. The content of the radio "broadcasts" is a mix of all sorts of music, funny adverts and news which is very often influenced by the storyline. Sometimes I even stay in a vehicle when arriving at a destination while listening to a radio story or ad I found interesting. And I found one of my favourite songs on the GTA in-game radio XD.
Of course, GTA V did have a ridiculously large budget, so take that as you will.
I am convinced games are superior to any other art form there is not because they are somehow better at delivering the narrative the artists "wrote" but because games allow the audience to create their own narrative and experience it!
Does anyone agree?
All we need are actual artists for the medium.
SquallTheBlade But if what you said was true you'd prefer movies to games always! For example what's your favorite game narrative -wise and ill prove that the reason you prefer to _play_ the game rather than watch it as a long video made by the developers is because the game gives you certain freedom to change the narrative no video can!
+Anton Adelson It's apples and oranges. Different forms of art tell stories in different ways and no single way is superior to another. There are some stories that could never be told as well through another medium. Books like House of Leaves or games like The Stanley Parable use the specific strengths of their medium so well and so thoroughly that they could never truly be adapted to another art form.
All forms of art are unique enough in how they tell stories that you could never objectively say that one is superior to another. They're incomparable.
PsychoNerd92 I fully agree! With that in mind do you also think it wasn't practical to use word - count - per - minute in any game?
Anton Adelson It's a useful tool for explaining just how dissimilar these mediums are.
I remember in fallout 4, when my companions talked it was always about something to build the world, like talking about the capital wasteland and its current status now.
That told me the affect of my other characters action in fallout 3 and established the back story of the companion as it shows they have traveled from DC at some point.
How did Bioshock infinite burial at sea not make this episode?
The dialogue from everyone inside of the still functioning rapture was AWESOME!
The way the Ghost was drawn, I couldn't help but think of Bill Cipher every time he came up onscreen.
BIOSHOCK 👏🏻 👏🏻 INFINITE 👏🏻 👏🏻
SOMA did this so well I thought. I looked forward more the quiet sections between each 'gameplay' bit because it was all full of stuff that showed what world you were in, what the people in it did, how they felt, and just set the mood really fucking well.
To limit story telling down to words... Thats an interesting and very limited view on storytelling. Its a large factor but have you seen the first 30 mins of films such as Wall-E and Up? heck even Mario and most plat formers show things like progression through level design. TF2 uses posters and, again level design to show whats up. Their characters even in their design tells stories.
+Tepene Marsden
Thank you. There is so much more to art than words.
+Tepene Marsden Good point. It's harder for games to pull this off though, as alot of level design cues could be totally lost on the average player if the camera doesn't point at it and go "HEY LOOK I AM AN IMPORTANT LORE/THING"
See that is where its done badly. A great way to tell stories is to tell it organically, in a way that doesn't feel like you are being told anything. Dark Souls is great like this, it has heaps going on, that you just absorb and it builds a larger picture without a cinematic, exposition scene or anything of the like. So its not that it gets missed or is harder, its a matter of when and where you put that information. E.g Having a book hidden in a library of a village is a lame way of doing it. But having local townsfolk bring up different parts of the story in their own way with hints and assumed pre-knowedge (from character POV) can help it build it in a way that reflects the real world more so.
Even in how the buildings are built, who lives in them, how many are living in them and what they are made of can tell you heaps about the current status of a village
And that doesn't even start to bring up points about film making style techniques (angles, lighting, colour, composition etc).
This is one thing I really like about the Tales series. Skits - little side conversations that pop up when you see or do certain things - provide lots of characterization without slowing down the game too much. I feel like mechanics like that are how you get across more plot. Instead of gigantic cutscenes, give players little incentives or bursts of small yet interesting things.
As somebody currently writing their own game, I really, REALLY wish you guys gave an example of what a Throwaway line actually is, especially since I've never played Destiny. I guess I don't really understand how you can have a line of dialogue that doesn't say anything about the character who says it or it's directed to or the world if it's not instructional. Like, what else is there in a game to have been written about? What was the dialogue?
+SeriousPeopleStudios
Maybe something like "catchphrases" that you heard a thousand times before? They don't serve any purpose and are just there as filler. Not to mention cause they're reused the developers just seem lazy.
Other than that there's also a type of dialogue that tells the player nothing new about the character: Imagine the playable character is the leader of some task force team. Whenever one of his men says something to let the player know they are under said characters command then it's pretty much a completely useless line. The player already knew that why hammer it in? As filler of course.
+SeriousPeopleStudios Think of it like this. A throw away line is when a character suddenly says something that dosen't advance the plot, is unfunny or "stupid", and dosen't build upon the world in any way, shape, or form, and only serves to fill the silence. A example of these lines done right is Dragon Age Origins, where characters such as your buddy Alistar comments on a mage tower filled with demons. "See? This is why i don't trust mages, they allways get themselfs into these kinds of situations, and then the templar has to save them." That told us a bit more about his character. Where as if he said "Wizard's look's like moons", that would count as a throw away line, since it pretty much comes out of nowhere, does not to advance the plot, is not deep or philosophical, and is not funny at all.
I get when a line does tell us about stuff, but I'm still looking for examples about when the line doesn't. It's fascinating.
I have taken a look at some videos about Destiny and Ghost, and I think I'm beginning to understand what EC means by "throwaway line". The dialogue in that game does not offer a lot of information.
SeriousPeopleStudios I haven't played Destiny and don't plan on doing so. Could you give some examples of the game's throwaway lines?
wertm123 That wizard came from the moon, i live in your backpack.
This is why Portal is so brilliant: it combines instructional text with character exposition about GladOS, and in most cases, does something for the furthering of the plot, namely, the player becoming more and more uncomfortable around this A.I., probably ending up in complete loathing by the end. Great positive example.
Also, kudos as usual to you guys at EC. Great job! :)
I feel like Mass Effect had varying levels of success for this. Examples of doing it wrong would be some throwaway lines/instruction text going place to place in the main story missions. Example of doing it right, oddly, in the elevators in ME 1. I would actually try to think of which squadmates I hadn't had in an elevator together on the Citadel so I could hear new interactions.
BioWare is REALLY good at this kind of casual dialogue.
Dragon Age is my go-to example; I tried out every possible combination of all the followers I could get my hands on in each game, not to test for the ideal party makeup, but because I YEARNED for more of that tasty, tasty dialogue. Even the 'boring' ones, like Blackwall in Inquisition or Wynne in Origins (YMMV on both), had some really touching, funny, or just insightful scenes. Pairing Blackwall with Cole before the "Here Lies The Abyss" chapter gives some really great foreshadowing to a major spoiler that happens after that chapter is completed.
Sometimes the lines seemed "throwaway" in the textbook sense - followers would snark or snipe at each other to no real purpose, like Alistair and Morrigan in Origins or Anders and Fenris in II - but those lines still convey the relationship between these characters in a clear, concise, and usually funny way, often developing the more you take the same characters on missions together. When Varric started calling Dorian "Sparkler" in Inquisition, my heart melted a little because Varric only nicknames his friends and...
...I just really love Dragon Age.
the artists are doing a grand job with this
One of the things I passively admire about Extra Credits is how not every animated character is white. This isn't a huge deal for me personally, but it is nice to see an artist drawing people of different colors when the art itself isn't the main focus of the media produced. I personally default to creating all white characters without a second thought, and feel like many other creative types do so as well, and this practice is rather stupid, but easy to commit to. Seeing Extra Credits go against this is simply awesome. You guys are the best gaming channel on UA-cam in my opinion.
eternal kaori agree! i like this aspect of EC and other artists, too!
sometimes it's not the main point of the video but just seeing people with many race and nationalities together, i just love it
I will never get tired of Mr. Zurkon's throwaways from Ratchet and Clank
Triple A games with a narrative focus 15-40 hours? hahaha not anymore, more like 2-8 these days generally!
+Darren C I was going to comment this. 15-40 hours is common for RPG games though.
+Marcos Rodrigues What RPGs are you playing? D:
i cant think of a single AAA Rpg which takes less then 20 Hours.
+Darren C
Depends on the genre. Shooters, yeah. RPGs, no.
+MayanExpression Yeah, it definitely varies. I just think the "general" figure is way off. A lot of AAA titles are let downs now. The 3 games mentioned were cherry picked nice examples of triple A titles surprising by going against the grain.
+Xenon I was just using the numbers given on the video, maybe I generalized it a bit. I played some short RPGs like Child of Light or Undertale but those aren't AAA games.
Borderlands 2 is really amazing at this most of the time and them it falls on its face at other. Just the banter Jack spouts at you through the game durring a to b moments do this wonderfully.
This is probably just a really personal issue, but I really hate how destiny is such a talked about game. The only reason this game is impactful is because of the ludicrous hype and marketing and the following general dissapointment. But honestly, destiny is nothing special, nothing remarkable and should be completely disregarded if you ask me.
I do of course realise the following:
It isnt completely terrible, and enjoyable to some.
It makes for a good example because everybody knows about it.
But that's the thing that pisses me of a little, destiny gets so much credit, discussion and hate because it was marketed, hyped and had a well known dev, not for any of the actual substance.
Throttle Kitty I guess...
As a Game Creative Director (fancy name for writer) I find this video spot on. Kudos EC
You guys ever hear about "show, don't tell?" Games have less words because they focus on visual storytelling.
-cough-Silent Hill 2-cough-
Talky games are just visual novels.
Jimmy William you of topic jackass
"Show, don't tell" is not a universal rule. It depends on the kind of game you're playing, how deep or complex your narrative is, what you want to say about your world and its denizens.
People point to Dark Souls as this shining example of visual storytelling, and it does an excellent job of it (particularly Dark Souls III), but the only way to really get what's going on, the history of the world and its characters, is to read item descriptions. In short, words. Otherwise you may glean certain things from the world, environs, or characters, but not EVERYthing.
Even if I fail to make any results with what I attempt, I can say these videos have made me feel much smarter.
Portal knows how to do this just PERFECT.
The Portal games are excellent examples of this. GLaDOS speaks to the player almost the entire game, and her dialogue, while hilarious, also gives insight into the game world, such as the purpose of the Aperture facilities and GLaDOS's own motivations.
Dragon Age Inquisition is a good example of how to fill empty space. You learn so much about your party and how they feel about each other during these empty spaces when you have nothing else to focus on. That's at least one thing I did find great about that game
Shadows of Mordor is a good example of how to do both exposition and instruction in transitional dialogue. Very often, after starting a mission, you need to go another locale (or several other locales). While traversing the distances, the characters are almost always talking. About the mission, about the goal, about why they are doing it, etc. And it's never forced either. It always feels so conversational and natural. It makes the game all the better for it.
An informative, game development oriented channel with positive outlook on the industry backed with cute and funny animations, and voiced by a Salarian?
Subscribed!
Good show as always, but I really liked some the art in this episode. Something I found particularly funny was the "packing more narrative" graphic. The face on the game box is terrific.
I love that you mentioned that scene from the Witcher 3. After that scene, which I found incredible, I would make a point of not getting from point A to point B too quickly for fear of missing out on dialogue between Geralt and whoever he was with.
I thought Bastion was the sterling example of how to tell a story in a game. That was just done... SO well.
I'd like to see EC cover how the other method of video game storytelling works. That other method being the text dump/codex. I always find it interesting how quickly people end up lost on context due to failure to read in games that don't directly tell a story.
I am simply dumbfounded by how much more adorable the ghost is when you give him arms.