I so wish I could have played Minecraft before the Internet. Imagine a pokemon red type of community, where you only really learned new things like the nether, or the end, or new crafting recipes through friends at school. The sense of wonder and discovery would be insane.
If you played Minecraft as it was being made, that did happen. At least, if you were like most people and didn't read the patch notes. You didn't need the internet to play the game, the game wasn't as well optimized as it is now, and back in beta there wasn't a wiki. New features of the game would pop up on youtube videos of people's builds, and everyone would be like "OMG what *is* that!?" If you only picked up the game after it's release though, then yeah, you missed all of that. If you want that experience with games nowadays you need to be in them for Early Access or Open Beta.
This is why I love the idea of a procedural crafting game. I have no clue how you'd implement this, and it seems impossible, but having a collaborative yet mysterious crafting experience would be incredible. Games like Elite: Dangerous attempted this, with the mechanic of planet discovery, but there was no feeling that you contributed massively to any global effort.
although the internet did make some aspects of minecraft way more cool, like the insane things redstoners came up with and figured out to automate everything (a good example is theminecraftmuse if that deprecated channel is still on youtube). Someone people made freaking clocks out of redstone because why not
Just two days ago, I asked someone if they had played Portal, and they responded "I'm not really a fan of first person shooters". I was taken aback for a moment, thinking "Is Portal a FPS? Oh, I guess it kind of is..." I explained to my friend that while portal is first person and I guess you have a gun, there is no running and gunning, and no killing people - it's all puzzles and physics. She was surprised and interested. This is what happens when we mislabel games. I hope she plays Portal soon.
It amazes me how conversational you guys are in each episode. You never come across as 'giving a lecture' to people. It's like you're talking to us directly in an intelligent, respectful way. That's what I love about this show. Keep up the great work!
Dear Extra Credits team, I would be interested in that topic episode you suggested; Difficulty VS Challenge. You've done an episode on Depth VS Complexity.
"So, Steve! I see you've been playing a game called "Last Dream" a fair bit recently. What is it?" "Oh, it's a Submission-Discovery game with Fantasy aspects!" "This is why we aren't friends."
+Aerohk who? James or dan because james has a channel for him talking straight to the camera about games and dan has shown up from time to time on stream videos.
I think it's worth noting that, when Bethesda began the Skyrim project they first created the logo you see in the game. "What does this game feel like" they asked themselves. So it is definitely possible and has worked wonders where a developer ALSO approaches the game from an aesthetic perspective.
oh my god, you have no idea you much my face just lit up when you said "the incredible machine." Back when that had just come out, it was all I used a computer for!! I spent HOURS on that game making the coolest most complicated machine imaginable! I even managed to make 1, my favorite, which produced different results each time it was set off. It was a game of ball on ball dodgeball/tag/hockey which utilized the mechanics of altering specific balls' attributes. Best memories right there.
I recently went over this in my Game Design class, and the idea for the word Submission was that human's like to be told what to do, and not have to think about it, which is pretty much similar like zoning out.
Yooo! so this is episode is a year old and we haven't yet heard of James' contributions to the core Aesthetics of play. And I think we'd all benefit from the knowledge of this :) so can we please? (mailbox episode maybe?)
Man, you people are amazing. I know this video (amongst others) is old, but I've only recently been introduced to the channel yet it's like you're reading my mind. Even when you take a different approach to a subject compared to what I have, you wind up coming to almost the same conclusion. (The differences are usually that yours are much more coherent, insightful, and well-articulated). I don't know whether to feel validated for having these thoughts or humbled by not arriving at any particularly original or groundbreaking conclusions, lol.
Well, "road movie" would be an example for a film genre that's totally superficial. So it's people driving from A to B. Great, that says a lot about what feel or story this film delivers.
Foolish me. It didn't occur to me to search again. [Previously some years ago there wasn't much about James on UA-cam as there is today] Here is the video : watch?v=oXaDQTziXtI
Tracy Fullerton's playcentric approach is one of the few that tries to teach designers to bring together the mechanics and aesthetics poles. She proposes to define the player experiences we aim at before we start to think of mechanics that could produce such aesthetics.
Should it be mentioned that competition and fellowship doesn't have to be with real people? I think this can be achieved when you have great characters and immersion in your game. (how many of you have hated your rival in pokemon with a burning passion?)
Meh... not really... Real fellowship requires a living person (debatably even a "thing"), and true competition... well we are already very capable of doing that with AI. - Edited for clarity. (^_^)b
@@Visigoth_ I firmly feel this is just humanist hubris that denies the effectiveness of substitutes to humans, and an insult to those who carefully craft these experiences.
@@Visigoth_ If you can feel for fictional characters/humans, I don't see why you couldn't experience fellowship with them. I mean if we couldn't relate/compare fictional characters to real people, we wouldn't have stories I think? Like we have to be able to feel something real. So fellowship should also be perfectly possible as well.
This is a great video on the questions that I always think about: why do people enjoy the games they do? What type of "fun" do certain games provide? Why is a game a 10/10 for one person, but 6.5/10 for someone else? I'd love more videos on the topic!!!
I recently got confused about someone talking about turn based strategy rpgs. I thought he was talking about Fire Emblem like SRPGs. I totally agree that we need to define games by several categories.
ancalyme Fukigen Cinderella. And I thought you just tack on anything that was something to do with the game. Like Firefall is an fps mmorpg meaning it is a first person massively multiplayer online role playing game and then if you like the sound of that you would go and look more into the game via reviews or playthoughs.
Food for thought: Are some of these core aesthetics mutually exclusive by definition? As an example, I can't think of a game where the combat system is geared towards both challenge (like Devil May Cry) and abnegation (like Dynasty Warriors).
-1:15-- If both the challenge (which is about skill and ambition) and the aspect of playing as someone in this world (which is about emotion and imagination) form the Aesthetics, I'd probably split them up further rather than blending them together, as those two are such vastly different experiences.- -It works as one of the three cornerstones in this model, but I think splitting them up and looking at them seperately should be done when looking at some more particular aspects.- Nevermind, should have watched the whole video first before commenting :P
Wow, this is the first time I watch one of your video and I'm really impressed. This is a deep reflexion, way deeper than a review, or a review of reviews. I mean it's nearly philosophia (for those who really know what does this word mean). This is the kind of things that I would make my best to push devs, players, every videogames professionals, even politicians creating laws about videogames watching it. Great work dude =]
That's almost exactly how I felt about MapleStory. The old MS managed to provide all 9 aesthetics covered in the video. I think MMOs, especially MMORPGs, are some of the easiest games to find multiple aesthetics in. Unfortunately, providing maintenance on those aesthetics is an area that still needs a lot of work. Too often I find myself getting really into an online game, for multiple reasons, but over time the things that drew me in always start to fade away until I get bored and leave.
One of the best moments playing WoW was ground-travelling from Stormwind to both ends of the Eastern Kingdoms while stuck at level 20. Being an Ally character and slogging through countless beat ups of elite NPCs to finally getting into the Blood Elf starting zone to scare off newbies was epic.
This reminds me of the Gamification Octalysis: a chart of the 8 core drives behind our actions. Epic Meaning, Empowerment, Social Influence, Unpredictability, Avoidance, Scarcity, Ownership and Accomplishment.
I think this would be an interesting way of classifying games, better than the current mechanics-based genres. I think there would be a lot of mixed genres and I'm sure some people would disagree on certain games aesthetics, but still, it is good to look at them in a different light.
I noticed that Magic the Gathering actually delivers on five of the aesthetics. Sensation in the cool card art. Fantasy in imagining the world constructed by the flavor and storyline. Challenge in playing against a skilled opponent. Fellowship in the friendships with other players. Discovery in finding new tactics and releases of new cards and mechanics. Expression in designing new and creative deck ideas and situational use of cards.
I've been seeing your videos for over a month now and really like to see you guys do one on game analysis. Describing the formal and dramatic elements with the dramatic arc of a game. This will also help in making a video to say about the difference between difficulty and challenge.
I love Dwarf Fortress for sense, fantasy, occasionally narrative (It's so vague you can make up your own story), challenge, discovery, and expression. Everything is just so perfect in that game for me I usually just can't stop playing it.
actualy there is another big important point in this topic. its a difference between which core aestetic this game _should_ motivate and highlight per design, and with which emotive reason actual player engages the game. i personaly played counter strike out of many reasons. my strongest motivation was discovering and overcoming of obstacles, thats why for me counter strike never was frustrating, and was always fun and joy.
THIS is the reason I have this channel on my feed-list. It helps me live my video-game life a lot more CONSCIOUSLY. Thank you so much! By the way, exactly the same reasons I quit WoW :D
I agree. The way we define genres is outdated and utterly inadequate. I mean, what is even the definition of an "RPG" these days? It's not a Game in which you Play the Role of a character, because that's basically most games these days. It's not the leveling up or turn based combat that used to be iconic of RPGs, because nowadays, almost all / almost no games use these mechanics, respectively. Old RPGs were distinct from other games for being very plot and character driven. But, again, most games do this too these days. I'd like to know what other people thought about this topic.
1:45-1:57 8:39-8:44 Shigeru Miyamoto knows what you mean from wikipedia: "Miyamoto figures out if a game is fun for himself. He says that if he enjoys it, others will too. He elaborates, citing the conception of the Pokémon series as an example, "And that's the point - Not to make something sell, something very popular, but to love something, and make something that we creators can love" and results speak for themselves...
My preference is the cross between discovery-fantasy-sensory that make up most AAA adventure games and RPGs like Skyrim (and all of Elder Scrolls), Mass Effect, Dragon Age and Zelda, in no particular order, but I also really like narrative games as well, as a (book) writer who loves gaming. And, really, the talk of genre for books is outdated too, based on conventions and tropes that see more, less, or different uses than they used to. Food for thought, great vid.
I realised that my fav casual game, Meadow, hits 4 of the aesthetics - despite being a walking sim with like two and a half actual game mechanics. It's sense pleasure (music, sound design and views), fellowship (communication and teamwork with other players), discovery (what's in that cave I've never seen befo- ohh wooow!), and abnegation (you can spend hours galloping across the fields to relax).
Allison got a Job at Retro Studios, so she is also busy working with them on that "new game" Nintendo mentioned post-E3. in the meantime they usually have the new member of the pirate crew(Leelee) take over art duties.
within sensory aesthetics i would add interaction, as in being stimulated by and enjoy the interaction within mechanics in the game, just as would with visuals, sound, etc. "oh look, if i press this, this happens, nice!" just as "hey, that looks cool!" it's something that specially games within media can attain, and it's the main reason i like games.
Oh man this just got me so excited. Thinking about genres outside of mechanics makes so much sense. Can you imagine playing a horror game the size of Skyrim? Where the main aesthetic was exploration but everything was creepy as fuck? That would be heeeeeeell of dope.
Okay... that bit where you say "City of Heroes' and show somebody showing respect and mourning for a passed loved one..... Thats alot like watching an interesting debate only for someone to suckerpunch you in the gut. .... well played .... I miss that game.
Looking for some insight on how to properly name a game genre (because I like thinking about videogames like that) I found the Game Show video of "genre and you" and this video, and looking at both, it's revealed to me again why I stopped watching that other channel lol.
Chueko Loyo They really don't! In terms of marketing nowadays people know what they are getting from a AAA title from the internet (trailers) and word of mouth (both are one and the same now). The audience for indie gaming tend to know what they like anyway, but I'm just generalising.
I remember learning it this way, but I always thought of it as a pyramid or like a log problem (lol) like (for developers) it goes: DA M You think of the Dynamics you want and how you want the players to feel during the players interaction with the dynamics (which is part of the aesthetics) then you create the mechanics to create the Dynamics so on and so forth. I'm not saying its wrong or anything like that and I'm just starting out so i "have no room to talk/not an expert yet." but just offering another way of thinking about M.D.A Thanks for reading :)
This using aesthetics to define genres thing is great, but that could possibly lump almost everything in the incredibly broad "action adventure" genre together, even though they differ drastically. Maybe sub-genres would be good. Like fps action-adventure or sandbox action adventure. It's just that sometimes, very different kinds of gameplay give the same underlying aesthetics, and labeling by mechanics is still important.
I was thinking about playing through Mana Khemia again. I was undecided on whether I should or not. Then you show a screenshot of it in the first 20 seconds. That pretty much made up my mind for me. If you don't mind, I have to go hook up my PS2.
1. 4:16 Sensation: Game as sense-pleasure 2. 4:40 Fantasy: Game as make-believe 3. 4:57 Narrative: Game as drama 4. 5:12 Challenge: Game as obstacle course 5. 5:48 Fellowship: Game as social framework 6. 6:09 Added: Competition: Game as expression of dominance 7. 6:40 Discovery: Game as uncharted territory 8. 7:01 Expression: Game as self-discovery 9. 7:28-7:59 Abnegation/Submission: Game as pastime
I love point-and-click adventure games for abnegation, as you can make it on your own pace. And even sometimes just stop to enjoy the graphics and music.
This was a great video but I wanted to bring up a point about Borderlands. As I came late to the series I have played mainly the second game and so will mainly use it for my examples but I have played some of the first and they seem quite similar. Disclaimer over, I feel that the core aesthetic of borderlands isn't that of fellowship but of fantasy. More specifically power fantasy. In the game you play as a vault hunter, a collection of people who are admired and to some extent feared by the general population. The writing reinforces your dominance with the frequent repitition of "Badass". "Badass" is used as a title given to the tougher variations of enemies, throughout the game you can complete optional Badass challenges to earn Badass points which give you badass tokens to spend. Many NPCs will refer to you as a badass both during story dialogue and randomly when around citizens. The game makes the player feel powerful through the gameplay mechanics, when you do considerably more damage than needed to kill an enemy they will explode instead of just falling down dead, you take no fall damage allowing you to jump from increadible heights without a problem. There are also many story choices used to further reinforce the player's feeling of superiority, for example, the first character you meet is claptrap, an incompetent robot who continually tries and fails to be a badass requiring you too come in and save him. There are many other times throughout the game that the story does this but to keep this spoiler free I won't say what they are. Again this is all coming from my experience with Borderlands 2, but from what I have played of the original and the pre-sequel I feel like the designers have been very consistant throughout the series. That said I will probably come back once I have had the chance to play more of the original.
guys. you said you could do a whole episode on the difference between difficulty and challenge. pleeeeaaase can you do it. it would be awesome and so helpful as i dont understand the difference very well myself.
9:16 Bra Relocating by Justin Tense. The intro and outro titles are given (but they aren't labeled as songs, so there's no way you could've known) There's also a link to download in the description.
When he mentions City of Heroes, the image definitely isn't from the game itself directly. I don't remember what specific date City of Heroes ended, but was this and ode to the destroyed world? If so, thank you years beyond, Extra Credits. I hope to see City of Titans grow grand from the soil those graves.
i disagree with DDR being about the sense pleasure core aesthetic. no one plays DDR for the way you feet feel when rapidly stepping on the dance pad, and anyone who is in it mainly for the music will just download the songs and listen to them. for most players, DDR is about the challenge (or the excercise), and i'd say that goes for tag too. the thought that someone whould play it mainly for the sensation of touching children is actually horrible (yet sadly, it probably happens).
+Cupriferous Catalyst I definitely played DDR for the sense pleasure. I loved just getting into a rhythm and doing steps that just naturally flowed into each other. That's why my favorite songs were not the hardest songs, but the ones with a great rhythm and flow to how you move your feet.
+Cupriferous Catalyst while it is true there is that minority who play to master a song's patterns and steps(I'll get past light mode someday!) a majority of the time people in the arcades just play DDR just for the fun of going against friends from the numerous times I've seen it played over at GameWorks. so Challenge is on, but sensation(enhanced by the arcade environment) does seem to fit the most.
+Mrnick21212 Yes. The fact that they chose to represent City of Heros that way speaks volumes. I know it's one of the best games I've ever played... RIP CoH. :(
I so wish I could have played Minecraft before the Internet. Imagine a pokemon red type of community, where you only really learned new things like the nether, or the end, or new crafting recipes through friends at school. The sense of wonder and discovery would be insane.
From experience there was a little of that wonderful discovery and a lot of not even knowing that stairs or doors were a craftable thing for 6 months.
If you played Minecraft as it was being made, that did happen. At least, if you were like most people and didn't read the patch notes. You didn't need the internet to play the game, the game wasn't as well optimized as it is now, and back in beta there wasn't a wiki. New features of the game would pop up on youtube videos of people's builds, and everyone would be like "OMG what *is* that!?"
If you only picked up the game after it's release though, then yeah, you missed all of that. If you want that experience with games nowadays you need to be in them for Early Access or Open Beta.
This is why I love the idea of a procedural crafting game. I have no clue how you'd implement this, and it seems impossible, but having a collaborative yet mysterious crafting experience would be incredible. Games like Elite: Dangerous attempted this, with the mechanic of planet discovery, but there was no feeling that you contributed massively to any global effort.
although the internet did make some aspects of minecraft way more cool, like the insane things redstoners came up with and figured out to automate everything (a good example is theminecraftmuse if that deprecated channel is still on youtube). Someone people made freaking clocks out of redstone because why not
+Jonathan Faber Heck, people made GPUs and multichannel speakers with minecraft
1. Sense pleasure
2. Fantasy
3. Narrative
4. Challenge
5. Fellowship
6. Competition
7. Discovery
8. Expression
9. Abnegation
Long ago, these nine nations lived in harmony. But everything changed when the Competition nation attacked.
@@alexnobody1 Oh God, too accurate.
@@alexnobody1 This is actually hilarious because competitive players LOVE to attack. 😂
Just two days ago, I asked someone if they had played Portal, and they responded "I'm not really a fan of first person shooters". I was taken aback for a moment, thinking "Is Portal a FPS? Oh, I guess it kind of is..." I explained to my friend that while portal is first person and I guess you have a gun, there is no running and gunning, and no killing people - it's all puzzles and physics. She was surprised and interested. This is what happens when we mislabel games. I hope she plays Portal soon.
that was one letter off
+CaptainSwift11 I'm sorry?
+kelenloth It just bothers me
+CaptainSwift11 no what I mean is I don't see it. Which letter?
Well *Postal* (2), one letter off, is a first person shooter ;)
Just rewatched this video again. I think this is one of your best episodes.
Marcus Norton yeah top quality
I love this art. The derp faces are hilarious, the scenarios look really pleasant
I know! Dan just looks so cute this way :)
Yeah
Dear ExtraCredit team,
It’s been more than A year that I listen to you. And you repeatedly blow my mind.
You guys are awesome.
Thanks.
It amazes me how conversational you guys are in each episode. You never come across as 'giving a lecture' to people. It's like you're talking to us directly in an intelligent, respectful way. That's what I love about this show. Keep up the great work!
Dear Extra Credits team,
I would be interested in that topic episode you suggested; Difficulty VS Challenge.
You've done an episode on Depth VS Complexity.
"So, Steve! I see you've been playing a game called "Last Dream" a fair bit recently. What is it?"
"Oh, it's a Submission-Discovery game with Fantasy aspects!"
"This is why we aren't friends."
You should do a Ted Talk
+ƃɹǝquǝʇʇnɹ ɯıɐɹɥdǝ This has way to few upvotes!
This whole video has way too few upvotes! Bring em on! :D
jaaaaa that would be awesome
I think he doesn't want to show his face.
+Aerohk who? James or dan because james has a channel for him talking straight to the camera about games and dan has shown up from time to time on stream videos.
I think it's worth noting that, when Bethesda began the Skyrim project they first created the logo you see in the game. "What does this game feel like" they asked themselves. So it is definitely possible and has worked wonders where a developer ALSO approaches the game from an aesthetic perspective.
I just gotta say, I find the way the hands are drawn in this episode adorable.
oh my god, you have no idea you much my face just lit up when you said "the incredible machine." Back when that had just come out, it was all I used a computer for!! I spent HOURS on that game making the coolest most complicated machine imaginable!
I even managed to make 1, my favorite, which produced different results each time it was set off. It was a game of ball on ball dodgeball/tag/hockey which utilized the mechanics of altering specific balls' attributes.
Best memories right there.
I recently went over this in my Game Design class, and the idea for the word Submission was that human's like to be told what to do, and not have to think about it, which is pretty much similar like zoning out.
So in that sense, it would be a lack of player agency.
This was right up my alley! Just what my small team needed. Thank you!
Yooo! so this is episode is a year old and we haven't yet heard of James' contributions to the core Aesthetics of play. And I think we'd all benefit from the knowledge of this :) so can we please? (mailbox episode maybe?)
Man, you people are amazing. I know this video (amongst others) is old, but I've only recently been introduced to the channel yet it's like you're reading my mind. Even when you take a different approach to a subject compared to what I have, you wind up coming to almost the same conclusion. (The differences are usually that yours are much more coherent, insightful, and well-articulated). I don't know whether to feel validated for having these thoughts or humbled by not arriving at any particularly original or groundbreaking conclusions, lol.
Honestly, this is the most interesting and helpful episode in your entire channel. This helped me so fucking much.
Well, "road movie" would be an example for a film genre that's totally superficial. So it's people driving from A to B. Great, that says a lot about what feel or story this film delivers.
"We can do a whole episode on the difference between difficulty and challenge..."
...well, please, do that. :3
Is there any video of James giving a talk about this subject ? I wouldn't mind for a one hour long version.
Just search for James Portnow on youtube, I see there are a few of his talks, I just don't know if any of them are about this specific subject.
Foolish me. It didn't occur to me to search again. [Previously some years ago there wasn't much about James on UA-cam as there is today]
Here is the video :
watch?v=oXaDQTziXtI
Out of a lot of great Extra Credits videos out there, this might be the single most useful one.
5:48 look at the left
+ShedGaming Huh?
+Alex Ander Oh the face lol.
Tracy Fullerton's playcentric approach is one of the few that tries to teach designers to bring together the mechanics and aesthetics poles. She proposes to define the player experiences we aim at before we start to think of mechanics that could produce such aesthetics.
One of your best videos to date!
Curious though, what are the other "genres" James has added beyond these eight?
That's it! You did it! You earned a new subscriber!
Loving your videos so far!
Should it be mentioned that competition and fellowship doesn't have to be with real people? I think this can be achieved when you have great characters and immersion in your game. (how many of you have hated your rival in pokemon with a burning passion?)
Meh... not really... Real fellowship requires a living person (debatably even a "thing"), and true competition... well we are already very capable of doing that with AI.
-
Edited for clarity. (^_^)b
@@Visigoth_ I firmly feel this is just humanist hubris that denies the effectiveness of substitutes to humans, and an insult to those who carefully craft these experiences.
@@gathorall9136, :) feel however you want... I think we're probably just defining "Fellowship" differently.
@@Visigoth_ If you can feel for fictional characters/humans, I don't see why you couldn't experience fellowship with them. I mean if we couldn't relate/compare fictional characters to real people, we wouldn't have stories I think? Like we have to be able to feel something real. So fellowship should also be perfectly possible as well.
@@gathorall9136 I agree.
This is pretty much how I always thought of game genres. I like how its more officially analyzed here, never quite put it into words myself.
This is a great video on the questions that I always think about: why do people enjoy the games they do? What type of "fun" do certain games provide? Why is a game a 10/10 for one person, but 6.5/10 for someone else?
I'd love more videos on the topic!!!
I always thought we just classify games like this:
Portal: FPS puzzle platformer
CODMW4: Linear FPS Action
I recently got confused about someone talking about turn based strategy rpgs. I thought he was talking about Fire Emblem like SRPGs. I totally agree that we need to define games by several categories.
ancalyme Fukigen Cinderella. And I thought you just tack on anything that was something to do with the game. Like Firefall is an fps mmorpg meaning it is a first person massively multiplayer online role playing game and then if you like the sound of that you would go and look more into the game via reviews or playthoughs.
Otimo Did not expect anyone to recognise him/her haha
ancalyme It was a good manga :D
A hat trading game with a team-based class-based objective oriented fps
Food for thought: Are some of these core aesthetics mutually exclusive by definition? As an example, I can't think of a game where the combat system is geared towards both challenge (like Devil May Cry) and abnegation (like Dynasty Warriors).
-1:15-- If both the challenge (which is about skill and ambition) and the aspect of playing as someone in this world (which is about emotion and imagination) form the Aesthetics, I'd probably split them up further rather than blending them together, as those two are such vastly different experiences.-
-It works as one of the three cornerstones in this model, but I think splitting them up and looking at them seperately should be done when looking at some more particular aspects.-
Nevermind, should have watched the whole video first before commenting :P
lol well no s*t Sherlock (lol no offense )
And not to mention the fellowship portrayed in the games community forum, helping new players and sharing their crazy narrative.
This video completely changed how I understood games. Bravo!
As a computer science student with no intention of getting into game design.... I still watch and love all these videos
Wow, this is the first time I watch one of your video and I'm really impressed. This is a deep reflexion, way deeper than a review, or a review of reviews. I mean it's nearly philosophia (for those who really know what does this word mean). This is the kind of things that I would make my best to push devs, players, every videogames professionals, even politicians creating laws about videogames watching it.
Great work dude =]
That's almost exactly how I felt about MapleStory. The old MS managed to provide all 9 aesthetics covered in the video. I think MMOs, especially MMORPGs, are some of the easiest games to find multiple aesthetics in. Unfortunately, providing maintenance on those aesthetics is an area that still needs a lot of work. Too often I find myself getting really into an online game, for multiple reasons, but over time the things that drew me in always start to fade away until I get bored and leave.
7:28 When I heard that, I couldn't help but think of the factions from divergent, because of the name of the attribute there: abnegation.
One of the best moments playing WoW was ground-travelling from Stormwind to both ends of the Eastern Kingdoms while stuck at level 20.
Being an Ally character and slogging through countless beat ups of elite NPCs to finally getting into the Blood Elf starting zone to scare off newbies was epic.
This reminds me of the Gamification Octalysis: a chart of the 8 core drives behind our actions. Epic Meaning, Empowerment, Social Influence, Unpredictability, Avoidance, Scarcity, Ownership and Accomplishment.
The aesthetics of this video are amazing, the graphics not so. Good one!
I think this would be an interesting way of classifying games, better than the current mechanics-based genres. I think there would be a lot of mixed genres and I'm sure some people would disagree on certain games aesthetics, but still, it is good to look at them in a different light.
I noticed that Magic the Gathering actually delivers on five of the aesthetics. Sensation in the cool card art. Fantasy in imagining the world constructed by the flavor and storyline. Challenge in playing against a skilled opponent. Fellowship in the friendships with other players. Discovery in finding new tactics and releases of new cards and mechanics. Expression in designing new and creative deck ideas and situational use of cards.
I've been seeing your videos for over a month now and really like to see you guys do one on game analysis. Describing the formal and dramatic elements with the dramatic arc of a game. This will also help in making a video to say about the difference between difficulty and challenge.
Bro Im taking a media game studies class and I had been lost for 4 weeks before the exam. Just helped a ton 😂 THANK U
I love Dwarf Fortress for sense, fantasy, occasionally narrative (It's so vague you can make up your own story), challenge, discovery, and expression. Everything is just so perfect in that game for me I usually just can't stop playing it.
Came back to watch this again. One of my favorite episodes.
actualy there is another big important point in this topic. its a difference between which core aestetic this game _should_ motivate and highlight per design, and with which emotive reason actual player engages the game. i personaly played counter strike out of many reasons. my strongest motivation was discovering and overcoming of obstacles, thats why for me counter strike never was frustrating, and was always fun and joy.
THIS is the reason I have this channel on my feed-list. It helps me live my video-game life a lot more CONSCIOUSLY. Thank you so much! By the way, exactly the same reasons I quit WoW :D
I agree. The way we define genres is outdated and utterly inadequate. I mean, what is even the definition of an "RPG" these days? It's not a Game in which you Play the Role of a character, because that's basically most games these days. It's not the leveling up or turn based combat that used to be iconic of RPGs, because nowadays, almost all / almost no games use these mechanics, respectively. Old RPGs were distinct from other games for being very plot and character driven. But, again, most games do this too these days.
I'd like to know what other people thought about this topic.
1:45-1:57
8:39-8:44
Shigeru Miyamoto knows what you mean
from wikipedia:
"Miyamoto figures out if a game is fun for himself. He says that if he enjoys it, others will too. He elaborates, citing the conception of the Pokémon series as an example, "And that's the point - Not to make something sell, something very popular, but to love something, and make something that we creators can love"
and results speak for themselves...
I recommend watching this at 0.5 speed. Coupled with the art style... Gold.
My preference is the cross between discovery-fantasy-sensory that make up most AAA adventure games and RPGs like Skyrim (and all of Elder Scrolls), Mass Effect, Dragon Age and Zelda, in no particular order, but I also really like narrative games as well, as a (book) writer who loves gaming.
And, really, the talk of genre for books is outdated too, based on conventions and tropes that see more, less, or different uses than they used to. Food for thought, great vid.
This is another one of your videos/areas of Game development theory with massive implications for teaching.
I realised that my fav casual game, Meadow, hits 4 of the aesthetics - despite being a walking sim with like two and a half actual game mechanics. It's sense pleasure (music, sound design and views), fellowship (communication and teamwork with other players), discovery (what's in that cave I've never seen befo- ohh wooow!), and abnegation (you can spend hours galloping across the fields to relax).
Allison got a Job at Retro Studios, so she is also busy working with them on that "new game" Nintendo mentioned post-E3. in the meantime they usually have the new member of the pirate crew(Leelee) take over art duties.
within sensory aesthetics i would add interaction, as in being stimulated by and enjoy the interaction within mechanics in the game, just as would with visuals, sound, etc.
"oh look, if i press this, this happens, nice!" just as "hey, that looks cool!"
it's something that specially games within media can attain, and it's the main reason i like games.
UA-cam should allow posting this video on comments, and automatically post it on every "TOP 10 RPG" video where Skyrim/Minecraft is number 1.
+Mark Boltz That's not a video. It's a link to a video =)
Mark Boltz Yeah and it's ok. Posting videos on comment would be awfull with the youtube community if you ask me.
aww the coh mention >.< hands down best costume creator I have ever seen
Damn that City of Heroes reference hit me hard.. 😢
'heroes may fall, but heroism never shall'
I think they should do an episode on the difference between challenge and difficulty
The art in this Extra Credits was adorable!!!
I want to squeeze him so much. Love you guys, you are geniuses!
This art style is just adorable :D
My thoughts exactly. Great to hear some people still remember this game.
Love every one of these videos, makes me braingasm when I watch them. I studied lots of Game Design and Theory and I love talking about them.
Oh man this just got me so excited. Thinking about genres outside of mechanics makes so much sense. Can you imagine playing a horror game the size of Skyrim? Where the main aesthetic was exploration but everything was creepy as fuck? That would be heeeeeeell of dope.
Daniel's so adorable when he throws his hands into the air. o3o
Okay... that bit where you say "City of Heroes' and show somebody showing respect and mourning for a passed loved one.....
Thats alot like watching an interesting debate only for someone to suckerpunch you in the gut.
.... well played .... I miss that game.
My heart broke a little when I saw the bottle being poured out for City of Heroes. 12 years and goin' strong, fellow Paragon residents...
I'd gladly watch an hour long video on this subject. I know it's a ton of work, but still. A podcast would be great.
Looking for some insight on how to properly name a game genre (because I like thinking about videogames like that) I found the Game Show video of "genre and you" and this video, and looking at both, it's revealed to me again why I stopped watching that other channel lol.
A lot of games just name it "action" or "puzzle" with a pinch of descriptiveness. You'll rarely find real genre labels on a game's box for instance.
That's my problem, genres are all over the place between theeming, mechanics, perspective, time period, etc they almost don't matter at all
Chueko Loyo
They really don't! In terms of marketing nowadays people know what they are getting from a AAA title from the internet (trailers) and word of mouth (both are one and the same now). The audience for indie gaming tend to know what they like anyway, but I'm just generalising.
8:37 XD
P.S. Sense Pleasure can also refer to the thrill of the chase in Tag or the satisfying feeling of going fast in Sonic, for example.
I remember learning it this way, but I always thought of it as a pyramid or like a log problem (lol) like (for developers) it goes:
DA
M
You think of the Dynamics you want and how you want the players to feel during the players interaction with the dynamics (which is part of the aesthetics) then you create the mechanics to create the Dynamics so on and so forth. I'm not saying its wrong or anything like that and I'm just starting out so i "have no room to talk/not an expert yet." but just offering another way of thinking about M.D.A
Thanks for reading :)
5:49 WHAT IS THAT MONSTER TO THE LEFT
This using aesthetics to define genres thing is great, but that could possibly lump almost everything in the incredibly broad "action adventure" genre together, even though they differ drastically. Maybe sub-genres would be good. Like fps action-adventure or sandbox action adventure. It's just that sometimes, very different kinds of gameplay give the same underlying aesthetics, and labeling by mechanics is still important.
That Art Style is adorable
I was thinking about playing through Mana Khemia again.
I was undecided on whether I should or not.
Then you show a screenshot of it in the first 20 seconds.
That pretty much made up my mind for me.
If you don't mind, I have to go hook up my PS2.
1. 4:16 Sensation: Game as sense-pleasure
2. 4:40 Fantasy: Game as make-believe
3. 4:57 Narrative: Game as drama
4. 5:12 Challenge: Game as obstacle course
5. 5:48 Fellowship: Game as social framework
6. 6:09 Added: Competition: Game as expression of dominance
7. 6:40 Discovery: Game as uncharted territory
8. 7:01 Expression: Game as self-discovery
9. 7:28-7:59 Abnegation/Submission: Game as pastime
Probably my favorite episode yet!
I love point-and-click adventure games for abnegation, as you can make it on your own pace. And even sometimes just stop to enjoy the graphics and music.
This was a great video but I wanted to bring up a point about Borderlands. As I came late to the series I have played mainly the second game and so will mainly use it for my examples but I have played some of the first and they seem quite similar. Disclaimer over, I feel that the core aesthetic of borderlands isn't that of fellowship but of fantasy. More specifically power fantasy. In the game you play as a vault hunter, a collection of people who are admired and to some extent feared by the general population. The writing reinforces your dominance with the frequent repitition of "Badass". "Badass" is used as a title given to the tougher variations of enemies, throughout the game you can complete optional Badass challenges to earn Badass points which give you badass tokens to spend. Many NPCs will refer to you as a badass both during story dialogue and randomly when around citizens. The game makes the player feel powerful through the gameplay mechanics, when you do considerably more damage than needed to kill an enemy they will explode instead of just falling down dead, you take no fall damage allowing you to jump from increadible heights without a problem. There are also many story choices used to further reinforce the player's feeling of superiority, for example, the first character you meet is claptrap, an incompetent robot who continually tries and fails to be a badass requiring you too come in and save him. There are many other times throughout the game that the story does this but to keep this spoiler free I won't say what they are. Again this is all coming from my experience with Borderlands 2, but from what I have played of the original and the pre-sequel I feel like the designers have been very consistant throughout the series. That said I will probably come back once I have had the chance to play more of the original.
he worked at Activision for awhile on the CoD series. now he set up his own studio and works as a Teacher at Digipen.
guys. you said you could do a whole episode on the difference between difficulty and challenge. pleeeeaaase can you do it. it would be awesome and so helpful as i dont understand the difference very well myself.
Thanks for making these videos! You manage to teach me something new and interesting in almost every one.
9:16 Bra Relocating by Justin Tense.
The intro and outro titles are given (but they aren't labeled as songs, so there's no way you could've known) There's also a link to download in the description.
When he mentions City of Heroes, the image definitely isn't from the game itself directly. I don't remember what specific date City of Heroes ended, but was this and ode to the destroyed world? If so, thank you years beyond, Extra Credits. I hope to see City of Titans grow grand from the soil those graves.
I like the art style of this video it is definable as a great hand drawn art experience
i disagree with DDR being about the sense pleasure core aesthetic. no one plays DDR for the way you feet feel when rapidly stepping on the dance pad, and anyone who is in it mainly for the music will just download the songs and listen to them. for most players, DDR is about the challenge (or the excercise), and i'd say that goes for tag too. the thought that someone whould play it mainly for the sensation of touching children is actually horrible (yet sadly, it probably happens).
+Cupriferous Catalyst Well DDR is aesthetic and challenge, probably abnegation too.
+Cupriferous Catalyst I definitely played DDR for the sense pleasure. I loved just getting into a rhythm and doing steps that just naturally flowed into each other. That's why my favorite songs were not the hardest songs, but the ones with a great rhythm and flow to how you move your feet.
+Cupriferous Catalyst while it is true there is that minority who play to master a song's patterns and steps(I'll get past light mode someday!) a majority of the time people in the arcades just play DDR just for the fun of going against friends from the numerous times I've seen it played over at GameWorks. so Challenge is on, but sensation(enhanced by the arcade environment) does seem to fit the most.
THAT ART IS SO SMOLLLLLLL
Thank you for the shout out to City of Heroes! :)
Man, I miss that game...
my fave episode so far. absolutely enlightening
7:22 Wha- you mean I'm not the only person to know of The incredible machine?!
Old comment, but you're not alone - it's a game of my childhood too ;)
vechz? i didn't expect you to be here :D its like finding a teacher outside of school.
Do an episode on the difference between difficulty and challenge, please.
I'd Like to see an Extra Credits that defines what an RPG is, some people say that every game is an RPG as in every game you are playing a role
Coincidentally this episode came up while I was re-organizing my Steam library into categories :-D
Hey - that screenshot was from Super Paper Mario - which DID focus on narrative!
5:48 lol the left fellowship face :D
Thanks for pouring one out for CoH
+Mrnick21212 Yes. The fact that they chose to represent City of Heros that way speaks volumes. I know it's one of the best games I've ever played... RIP CoH. :(