Reloaded Dice I was soooo exited for that then it didn't run on my computer not good enough. so I get refund but I exited more than 2 hours even thou they told me it was 4 :(
I think a game with a female ninja would be cool, a lot of ninja's were women because women in ancient japan were considered weak and no threat, so a lot of good ninja's were women who could infiltrate in the court.
That consequently also means not an insignificant amount of them were most likely trained as courtesans. Such as Mochizuki Chiyome(16th century noblewoman) who created a network of female spies. Her recruits consisted mostly of prostitutes and orphans.
Jason Schneijder I think that game exists but it takes place in NY in modern times. It's a stealth game where you play as some chick named Raiden who's girlfriend (progressive I know) keeps calling her to complain.
Red Ninja: End of Honour It's Ps2/Xbox and I forget most of the actual story, but it involves the typical being disgraced and left to die/revenge plot most ninja games do It's pretty romanticized and not extremely factual but it has solid gameplay and story from what I remember of it.
I think the main reason "mother protecting children" stories aren't extremely common is because it's easier to kill the mother offscreen and give the main character of your media the cheapest tragic backstory in history. And I'm not insulting Walt Disney, he's an exception because something about him feeling responsible for the death of his mother or something.
cloudfanlp I'd thank you for elaborating on that for comment readers, but the random capitalization in your comment is driving me insane. How do you capitalize "Broken", but not the words "they died because of"? I honestly want to know how this happened.
cloudfanlp 1. If my advice is so unimportant, why do you feel the need to openly oppose my provision of grammar advice instead of just saying "No, I won'T Change thAt, bYe." or "Huh, guess I'll try to work on it."? 2. Yes, it is a common expression, but I'm not attacking you for using incorrect grammar, I'm just explaining that you're going out of your way to capitalize things incorrectly and people will take you more seriously if you make a subtle change to your habits. In short: You're using a phrase intended for the context of someone attacking you, I'm just trying to help you write better.
cloudfanlp I still honestly do want to understand why you are capitalizing things. It's just such a strange error to me. I understand misspellings or normal bad grammar...I'm just muting this thread instead of wasting more time with this shit.
this is true to men as well. "men don't cry" "men are violent" "men are great in combat" "men like blue and\or darker colors" these are all society's expectations, and all men have a different relationship with these expactations.
The problem is in games we either get a stupid, oversexualised or steriotypical women in games or we get an overly smart, overly strong "I don't give a damn about anything" woman.
yes! great case for a mother character then. My mum always said that the most dangerous person in the world is a mother who's children have been threatened, even if she looks meek. that kind of simple, instinctive, quiet strength is often more compelling. why I love Carol in Walking Dead. I once saw a news article where a tiny woman was shown lifting a car 4ft off the ground by its bumper. apparently one of her kids had been hit by it at low speed and got trapped under it alive. they attributed it to pure adrenaline. the act of lifting the car left her bed-ridden for days but kid was fine.
NoNameC68 I find it stupid. Although I also find daisy dukes, exposed stomachs, nose rings and those odd shirts that just flap in the back stupid, if that tells you anything about my relationship with today's culture. I hear nothing but stuff about how women are oversexualized yet people wear stuff like that. Take from that what you will.
the Resident Evil games had women characters to begin with and actually they are really interesting and just about the average woman of today,just like the video said rejects and accepts gender norms,also they do have some advantages over men in games,like holding more guns and having a powerful gun at the start of the game !,hell jill in re1 in 1996 was a good playable character and no body would choose chris cause he starts with a knife and she starts with a gun and a knife and a lockpick !
From my point of view, the problem is that writers tend to default to male characters unless they need to make a character female for some explicit reason, like 'We need a character for the main characters mom' or 'we need a love interest for the main character' or 'the love interest for the character needs a rival or a best friend who should also be female'. Sometimes writers will remember to make background characters female from time to time, but if they're totally in the background and not meaningfully involved in the story, it doesn't really make a difference in terms of representation. This leads to there being relatively few female characters in general, and this leads to there simply not being enough of them for them to represent any sort of believable spectrum of humanity, every one of them winds up representing a huge portion of your 'presentation of women'. If your only woman is stupid, that's your commentary on women. But if you have 10 women, in roughly equally big roles, and one of them is stupid, then it's not a commentary.
One of my favorite quotes about writing characters comes from George R. R. Martin (and, let's face it, the man's pretty excellent at it). "I think the approach that I take, whoever I'm writing about, is to remember our shared humanity, because the truth is, as much as there are differences between us, we are all basically human; we all have the same fundamental drives. It doesn't matter if I'm writing about a man or a woman, or a giant or a dwarf, or a young person or an old person; they have a certain common humanity. The have far more more in common than they have things separate." It's such an utterly simple concept, and it is so painfully overlooked by so many writers. The quote is from the appendix section: George R. R. Martin: On the Craft of Writing, from the book Wonderbook, in case anyone was wondering,
So many people seem to think that making a main character a good person all the time is good, I don't care what their background is, I care about the quality of their character, I need characters with flaws and strengths, goals and fears, who has normal conversations and feels human.
This is why Samus and Bayonetta are two of the best female characters. Samus is a badass and you don't know she's a female till the end of the original game. When it's revealed that she's a woman, your opinion of her being a badass hasn't changed, it's just that now you know her gender. Bayonetta differs in that she uses her womanhood as her power, she's not a badass in lieu of being a woman, she's explicitly a badass because she's a woman. The fact that she often uses her own sexuality as a weapon is what may turn some people off though.
mechanoid2k even though historically, a woman using her sexiness as a strategy to get an advantage against male opponents is both Boss as all heck, and just a really good strategy. Look up Kunoichi is you want to learn more, they were the MASTERS of this stuff.
the 1st example is kinda pointless though, because what'd the point of making someone of specific gender, when they are going to act the exact same like the other gender?
turbotrup96 Because... men and women aren’t actually that different and aspects attributed to gender are facets of a person’s personality as influenced by their environment?
Looking at the history of witches, there does appear to be a trend that a witch's power is directly tied to femininity. Given this, it's no surprise that an Umbra Witch like Bayonetta would derive power from her sexuality and womanhood.
Contradiction is also a good one to throw in there. You would think, stereotypically, that a sporty 'tomboy' type character wouldn't like baking cakes or babysitting, or a gamer girl wouldn't like knitting or watching chick flicks. Stronger contradictions or hypocritical traits also give your character depth, as long as you work out their internal logic and it remains consistent. No one does anything 'for teh randoms,' and usually their actions make perfect sense to them. Or if they don't, explore why they made those choices.
Little known fat: at the turn of the last century, the colors we assign to boys and girls was swapped. Boys were given pink and girls were given blue. Pink was seen as being close to red, the color of action, while blue was the color of the sky and other pretty things.
krim7 yeah, and then pink became popular with girls after one woman very boldly wore pink to an important even to communicate to her male peers that she was their equal! Totally awesome power move there.
@@Munchkin.Of.Pern09 I thought it changed because the Nazi party would mark homosexual men with pink, just like how in america people would salute the president in the way we think as Nazi-like today or how the swastika was a religious symbol for eastern religions before the Nazis infamized it as a symbol of hate
Red Pacifist Atheists and egalitarians are prone to turning off those who should be listening to them because of their rabidness. It is hard to show how unknowing some people are if you sound just as bigoted.
I don't wanna talk about it too deeply because I don't want to get called out but I personally liked the idea that games can show that hey not all girls like pink or not all girls are girly but I'm starting to notice a trend that most of main female characters are the badass shoot first ask questions later type of girls which is fine but now it seems like we're overdoing it.were handholding this so much that it's becoming a new norm.
Yeah, I definitely agree with you there. It's as if a female character can only be a pink princess or a badass assassin, and not another type of person. There isn't enough variation in personality.
+Alexander Walsh Yep. One of the worst developments in female characterization is the phrase "not like other girls," which assumes the character is special/better for that reason. All it is is more sexism and (scarily) that view is probably held by the character as well.
Actually, it's easy to make a good female character: 1) Make a male character. 2) change it to female. That's it. *My sister acts like me in many ways and she is still feminine. The main issue is that men who create female characters stay away from feeling close to the being they shaped. Fantasy is enjoyable, but sometimes, keeping our wet dreams away may be better. Litterally put on the shoes (actual shoes, not high heels), think how a girl would grown up, and realise how the interrests that drive men drive women too. If you are a pervert kind, you can create a pervert female. Yes. If you want ecchi. Give ecchi. It won't hurt, but people did that a lot already. Those «creatures» are so similar to something we know... Humans! Isn't it? Even if natural muscles aren't there (but some women can reck anyone), I shall remember you: Russia prefered to have women as snipers because they thought they were more patient and precise. That's a real life good way to appreciate women as warriors too. But also... and a final word... Give them armor, not a bonner to my person. I have my porn for that. That commentary was way too long... Good video by the way.
Well, English definitely isn't your first language. But I get what you're saying. And I agree. We have to throw away gender roles and stereotypes to get rid of sexism. The only time I've ever written a "girly" character is when I've had to write a character that conforms to societal norms. And yes, women can be perverts as well. Take a look at the anime Panty and Stocking for that (And dear god I'm actually complimenting this series). As much as I don't like the humor in the series I will admit that they portray Panty in the sort of way that a real life Nymphomaniac would act (with a bit of added exaggeration). And as for the armor thing, I agree there as well. I don't mind skimpy armor on a realistic level as long as it's designed to provide flexibility. "Boobplates" would actually end up acting as a sort of spear directed at two of the most vital organs you have.
Vincent Pellemans I can only really say hi my name is in French, that's all I got out of my school french classes. They're mandatory until Grade 10 in Canada.
+Ditto, Master of Disguise Cela m'attriste... Et n'essaye même pas d'utilisé l'outil de traduction de google. Cela serait bien dommage de ne pas faire appel aux peu de mots que tu connais. Entre temps, j'apprends le japonais! Encore du chemin à faire... 私は日本語でいくつかの単語を話します。
I'd say Ellie in The Last of Us is one of the best examples of a good female character in a videogame. Clementine in The Walking Dead as well, especially when she becomes a more fleshed out character in the 2nd game. Funny that they're both zombie apocalypse games, but they're the best that come to mind.
I'd say The Last of Us is a good example. For the majority of scenes perhaps the fact Ellie is female isn't that relevant, following their criteria of "if this character was a different gender, would it change anything?". However, I would have said that the scene where Ellie is captured by David addressing some of these issues well, like the rape/sexual assault of a minor. It's a powerful scene and the Ellie's responses to it are dealt with very well I think.
+lexzeyfercronus No at BEST chaotic Neutral in fact almost all of the secondary characters are neutral in borderlands 2. they just HAPPEN to be pissed off at the bad guy. there are exceptions though, like Roland for example, who somewhat strived to be good. I haven't played 1 or the pre-sequel though so I don't know about the characters involved there.
thatguydownthestreat Well,Borderlands 1 dosnt develop the main characters so you are not missing much. The presequel explains some stuff but i cant say for sure,havent played it.
I think that the reason so many female characters are written poorly is because the writers view them as a woman first and foremost rather than a human. It's as if they think being female is a defining trait in its own right, which obviously it isn't. Write a character rather than a gender - if they're a good character then it shouldn't matter whether or not they're male or female. It would be interesting to see the pressures of gender roles explored in gaming, but I don't think the industry is ready for it yet, at least not with male game designers. Also, I wish I hadn't read the comments on this videos. Some people have really twisted views on gender.
Why do all female characters that are labeled as progressive have to be heavily involved with society and gender roles? Why is it that we can't have strong female characters without them being related to these topics? Just a thought.
"A mother protecting her children across a war torn country" What, regular escort missions weren't bad enough, now you want escort missions that have you trying to prevent your escortees from putting forks in light sockets and silently wandering off without you? Then you want to make us emotionally attached to them?
i dont think they would have working light sockets in a war torn country man. i thought more along the lines of trying to survive each day as a woman with 3 children and how fierce and fragile mothers can be for their children etc. the concept is realllly interesting for me idk how u cant see that
It doesn't have to be escort mission. Think in the style of "This war of mine", but with a mother with a "dead father figure" trying to have her children survive the war, may or maybe not at the cost of her own life.
Shelter and Shelter 2 accomplishes the goal of protecting and tending for young really well without being just an escort mission(where you play as a mama badger and lynx respectively). And This War of Mine with The Little Ones DLC adds the caring aspect too. Protecting by intervention is part, but in all 3 part of the gameplay involves teaching the young the skills they need and locating resources.
I agree. I nominate as Shelter to be the best game about the struggle of motherhood to date! I felt like a freaking mama badger... Damn, what does that really say about the industry? lol
That actually sounds like what Mother 3 did- of course the whole idea of Hinawa trying to save her boys from getting killed by the Dinosaur didn't last very long.
I think it not going to work well. As far as I know, when guys play that game he wouldn't care about baby but focus on shooting around the enemies. In this case, there is no difference between male protagonist and female one. Yet another post-apocalyptic FPS. If women play those game they expect something like "Lemmings" game. Something more focused on leading and guiding the children. Maybe this is prejudice but I think male player tends to interest in destruction and exploration but female players prefer storytelling and atmosphere. Maybe they don't even care about gender of protagonist (unless she/he is feminist or something). This is the reason why hard to develop "True Female Characters". Because both male and female players don't care about it.
Piyo Hoge No, I would definitely care about the babies. Men, as far as I know, are pressured to be the providers, the protectors of the family. Besides, nobody likes a dead baby :(
To make a good *female* character rather than just a *good character whose sex doesn't matter*, you need to use some difference(s) between men and women. If game developers try to use the biological differences between males and females, it's "sexist because you're sexualising and objectifying women". (Despite men recieving equal treatment) If game developers try to use psychological differences between males and females, it's "sexist because you're stereotyping women". If game developers try to use sociological differences between males and females, it's "sexist because you're normalizing gender roles of men and women which are social constructs". Feminists claim to want more good female characters, but seem to be trying to make it as fucking difficult as they can.
Fernie, everything he said is genuinely true. *A lot* of modern feminists are really making everything about females - and a lot of other things - very _very_ difficult for everyone.
+Ian Colter Tkach ...and Mei and Zarya and Anna see how instead of taking everything as a whole people like you cherry pick the things you want to show just to force your point to be true? That is why modern day feminists are laughed at.
"Trying to protect her children while crossing a war torn country" No. NO. That sounds a lot better on paper but by god, that would be way too likely a game that is just one giant painful escort mission! And escort missions suck, they're so hard to get right!
Solarius The Blaziken don't think of it as an escort mission game, with your kids being npcs with health bars, think of an game on the Beyond two souls style, with multyple ends and choices, with an pretty detailed story and quick time events done right, like quantic dream and telltale do.
Solarius The Blaziken it could work if you only had to look after one baby, where you must carry him/her with both hands and must find a safe place to put down/hide them to defend yourself through combat. Throw in a calming the crying baby mechanic and you have the base for an interesting stealth game
Doesn't have to be an escort mission. Could just involve you going out and getting what you and your kid need to survive while the kid is safe somewhere. Example: Dead Rising 2: This game is about a father trying to protect his kid during a Zombie outbreak. I immediately thought of this game when he said that concept.
Just saying to anyone watching this video now, it's coming up on 2 years old, and we HAVE seen some excellent female characters show up since then: the NEW Lara Croft pulls it off nicely for most of the game, any female character from the walking dead make a perfect match (especially Clementine), and we tend to see much fewer "guys with boobs" in games these days. The real push to make any "true" character would be to address that character with any discriminating trait as normal to the player and ask them to make choices in that character's place, thereby creating meaningful immersion in the character. The issues of that character's traits should still be brought up in the decisions they are forced to make, but not in a way that would alienate them for who they are, or more importantly, who the player THINKS they are.
People, do the Thumbs Up thing to this comment ^ so that it stays at the top of the stack. For my own part, I'm surprised they didn't mention Chell anywhere in that video, she's pretty widely credited as being one of the most normal-human-being female video game characters in living memory.
2andaHalfStooges I would also like to point a thumbs up to the guys at Might and Delight for making Shelter, a game about a mother badger as she crosses the open wilds with her four children searching for food, encountering dangers from hawks to floods to ridiculously strong wing gusts. It may have not captured the hearts of critics, but it taps in to the struggle of a mother like no other game has so far been capable of doing. This is exactly what was being discussed at 2:20.
***** I mean characters that are essentially male in their mannerisms, the way they act, socialize, converse (or have a lack thereof), or their gender role. This shows up a lot in "combat" games where it's a male character in the context of the story, just with a female body and sometimes voice filling the role. A guy with a pair of boobs strapped on.
the "man with boobs character" is a result of feminism you put a stereotypical male power fantasy character in a female body because "women are as good as men, you sexist pig", the result is an anoying preachy and unrealistic character wich was made to prove a point (in the worst way).
***** I guess this video's more about taking advantage of the inherent female characteristics part, but I think the "protagonist is a woman, so what" is just it. The designers could have just as easily made the protagonist a dude on HGH or a blonde in a bathing suit, but they didn't, and I think the Portal games turned out a lot better for it.
+tSp289 They should just create all of their characters, then sort those out that are dependent of and defined by their gender (there is nothing wrong with that, for the record, some characters need a fitting gender to work, no problem) And then take the rest and just flip a coin for everyone XD
+tSp289 This misses the point. They mention that there are specific female issues which can be explored. While there are characters which are great regardless of gender, there are also cases where the gender is relevant to who the character is, either in the social expectations they face or stuff like motherhood.
Erik Nielsen Social expectations depend entirely on the setting, and as a writer you are in control of the setting and therefore the expectations. In my experience, there are very few actual differences between men and women that are not entirely defined by our expectations and assumptions. The idea of a 'strong female character' assumes weakness in other female characters, so in its own small way it propagates the problem.
+Erik Nielsen CAN BE explored, not necessarily have to be explored. In fact if it contributes nothing to the story it shouldn't be included, and it's not going to contribute to the story unless there are more people who want to make those sorts of stories. Currently there aren't, and that's not a problem, it's just not important.
+Tyboroth True - but they're about animals. You can't really expect girls to be happy with "look, here's some excellent female characters and the story is about the trials of motherhood" and show them a badger and a lynx. Shelter and Shelter 2 are good games about motherhood and survival but from a non-humanoid perspective and so I don't think they can be counted on as examples...
+Loulybob Yeah, but I don't think he was saying that you should be happy with it. I wanted to recommend these games myself - not because it's all we need, but because people craving those types of themes in video games might get some of that from Shelter and Shelter 2.
***** I never said I wanted a realistic motherhood experience. Having characters that have children/are expecting children and having to deal with the trials of that (or even just alluding to these trials) is enough. P.s. Going "if you want a realistic experience then go do it in real life" is a poor argument. "If you want a realistic FPS war game, join the army in real life!", "If you want a realistic sports sim - go play the sport in real life!". Video games are video games and we enjoy them for different reasons.
***** I'm not saying there's anything wrong with those things IRL either. I'm just saying it's not a reason to not have a video game about those experiences. Video games are video games and real life is real life and arguments that mix between the two are bad (hence your argument on not needing games that have motherhood as a theme/story because people can just go have kids in real life being flawed)
+Tyboroth I was thinking that the entire time. "We've never had games that explore motherhood fertility..." Yeah, Shelter 1 and 2. "There's never been a game exploring motherhood or putting the player in a mother type role" Shelter! "Although I will contend that a game where you play a mother who sacrifices herself for her children can really be the first one to break you down and cry." SHELTER SHELTER SHELTER SHELTER SHELTER SHELTER SHELTER SHELTER SHELTER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This is strange. Even though you show that you're aware of good examples of good female characters in epic narratives, you act as though those don't count. What I mean is that while you were talking, I was thinking of characters like Final Fantasy X's Yuna (and come to think of it, Lulu, too, whom we were introduced to as Yuna's surrogate mother/older sister figure, before she later became an actual mother) and the female characters in Tales of Symphonia (especially Sheena and Raine), only for you to eventually give a nod towards Yuna having met your criteria. Also, female characters often do have examples of more dexterity and pain tolerance. It's very common for female characters to have better speed (not just outright speed, but specifically wind-up and cool-downs between attacks for combo'ing), but also an actual dexterity stat that, in video games, aids in things like archery, or dagger use (even though realistic archery is more about strength). In Resident Evil 4's Mercenary mode, the female character reloads faster than the others in the mode (they have static stats in this mode) and in RE2, Jill is the "Master of Unlocking" (she's a lock-picking ace) and can handle more items. Magic is sometimes tied to dexterity stats, which female characters are also usually better at. As for pain tolerance, it's almost as common to have a tank-y spell-casting female character as it is to have a squishy spell-casting female character, even though there aren't many tank-y spell-casting male characters. This even shows up in games like Pokemon, where the female Miltank is… a tank, whereas her male counterpart, Tauros, is not as pain-tolerant. Nidoqueen does this as well, when compared to Nidoking, as do their earlier forms. In Squaresoft games, it's common for female characters to get better equipment that lets them be more harm-tolerant.
*Even though you show that you're aware of good examples of good female characters in epic narratives, you act as though those don't count.* Not sure where you think they indicated that these characters don't count. I don't recall them anywhere in the video claiming that we have no good female characters at all, or claiming that the good examples don't count. Can you explain to me, where you see this?
+The Cloud You have a point, they flip-flop between speaking in absolutes and noting that some things are rarely done, but they say confusing things such as, "… we've been waiting for the industry to provide us with a good, topical example of a well-done female character, but unfortunately, nothing really helpful has come out…" and "… we've yet to see a video game that really addresses themes of motherhood, fertility or other childbearing issues… " I guess my point was that the scrip of this video has inconsistent, or misleading wording.
Well, they did mention topical, so I guess it depends on what games came out in the months leading up to the making/release of this video. But yeah, they didn't really need to focus on "current" examples. There are plenty of good female characters to talk about.
For the record, the opposite or a cardboard cutout of a female character who likes pinks and nurtures and is demure is not a badass with no emotions who blows things up and castrates the men around her for fun. Both extremes are boring and unbelievable. (Not to say that's what you suggested was a good female character, just that it seems to be what devs think of when they decide they want to write a 'strong female character'.)
Pearl Carol Because you'd only be trading one single-dimensional character for another. You can create realistic female characters using either of these extremes as a template, the secret is depth. You can have a female, vindictive, murderous hellion as your protagonist, but with no backstory or development beyond that, that's all she is.
CallMeCactusSok That was... kind of exactly my point. Writers (of all media, not just games) seem to be under the impression that the opposite of a blank slate, generic female character is an angry, loud woman who has no emotions and probably hates men. The truth of the matter is, a flat caricature is still a flat caricature, even if you paint a different face on her.
Pearl Carol Yes, I was agreeing with you. Depth can add realism to an initially absurd character. Both Pink Girl and Castration Woman can be realistic given enough other characteristics.
Just found this channel today and its freakin awesome, never crossed my mind that games had to be thought about in this level of depth for them to be conceived and also be good when released, insta-subscribe
I think one thing that could put you on the path towards a good and relatable female character is this: have a story not based on action in general, and violence in particular. Let's step away from games and into movies for a moment. For decades we've voiced and heard the complaints: all women are just damsels in distress. What we really needed were strong female characters. So Hollywood did something about it. They started writing women who kill dudes better than any man, and usually rub their faces in it too. Surprisingly, this did not go over as well as expected. Nowadays these roles are often called "strong female characters" (with quotation marks) or even men with boobs. Why did that happen? Possibly because the whole being a violent ass-kicker thing is just, on average, more of a male fantasy. If a typical woman has heard one too many stories about break ins and hears a noise while she's alone in the house she might start thinking "what would I do in such a situation?" Things that cross her mind are probably locking herself in a room, calling the cops, maybe pretending to sleep or sneaking out past the burglar. The typical man's thoughts would go pretty straight towards "but do I take the baseball bat, or the lighter-deodorant combo?" This is not true for all men and all women under all circumstances, but it is at least one thing that can help in putting down good female characters. Think of Twilight. Yes, it's a painfully stupid series, but it attracted loads of female fans, and not just for the pretty boys. Bella, as shallow and weird as she is, is at least a distinctly female character, relatable to the audience. She's a damsel about half the time, but she also has plot of her own. But the best current example is probably Frozen. In any other movie Else would have pointed to that cliff face she wanted to climb and have scaled it easily, leaving reindeer-guy stumped, no matter that she was a sheltered princess and he was a professional mountaineer. Still she is not a damsel, at all. She solves all of the major situations in the movie with feelings and talking and delegating and even running away, basically anything but being an action hero. On one hand it's a brilliant movie making effort, on the other it's kind of weird it took us so long. So, a non-violent and generally maybe kind of action-light character, in a story where any other skill a person could have becomes the deciding factor. That seems a step towards good female characters.
Wow, I really needed this as a writer. I always thought that the most important thing I should do with my female characters is make sure their gender is just a small part of their character, however maybe looking at how they react and reject society could be awesome too. I should probably do the same for my male characters. In fact, where the hell did I put my notebook this is all golden. Also, if any of my fellow writers are looking for something that does what they describe in this video here right, then check out the Parasol Protectorate book series. It addresses some of the mentioned factors well in my opinion.
Me too! Im making my own comic series and even though i wasnt going to make my main female character stereotypical, I couldnt find that special... thing. Now that i know about those societal pressure stuff, im gonna use that. Thanks Extra Credit!
I similarly needed this. I was struggling with precisely what distinguishes the difference between well written male and female characters. This overview highlighted some of the key things that really define how gender plays a role in both their persona and their actions. After a marathon session of writing I fundamentally changed the way that the female character in my current work both accepts and rejects the pressures of her society in a way that makes the character feel so much more human. This video greatly enriched the character and inspired a much stronger plot line and so you have my thanks Extra Credits.
Late to this, but I'll comment anyway. The best way to make a female character in a game is to have a character where the gender is never called into question and just doesn't become a big deal at all. Characters like Samus Aran, and Redfield are great at this because it doesn't matter what the gender is, the character takes care of business. The reason that people assumed that Samus was a guy the first play through back in the day wasn't because she was a truly awesome fighter or anything, it was because we just don't expect most game characters to be female. Does it take away from the game that she is? No, but it doesn't add anything to the game either. So when making a good female character just make a great game and worry about the gender of the character later, because in the end, the game is about the game play not the game character.
A great character is written as a character first without thinking of them as being female first. If you write them as female first you either get a stereotype or an ice queen...both don't make for a good character and especially the last one I hate the most. The 90s. loved to do these ice queens that are tough but with a soft core...that's not how all women of this world work...maybe a handful. I got no really good, female character on my mind currently but if I were to pick one I would have a hard time coming up with one. The writting in gaming is still in the 90s. in that retrospective.
I agree. I think you'll have to look at movies and TV series to actually find well-written female characters. In terms of character gender, you should only decide on it based on, as said, the character clashing with the norms within their society, or because of integrating one of those hard-to-tackle biological differences into the story. I can't see any other reason why you should choose one gender over the other. Of course, in that case, you'll end up with a lot of characters who are just arbitrarily woman or man, and the question is if that will turn out even better. Perhaps one should reserve the detailed writing only for the main characters and let the side characters be more stylistic and stereotypical, to contrast that one good character... Hm.
You're right, women being written as stereotypes does exist within many different forms of media. However, I don't think this means it should be struck from the creation process, only that there should be a push to make the character just as complex, interesting, and flawed as we do male characters. We often think of gender when we first establish a character, because being a man or a woman can make drastically different reactions or stories in games. I'm interested to see what new characters will come from that.
Kat Harnois That is EXACTLY what I mean with "A great character is written as a character first without thinking of them as being female first.". There are some examples in TV shows or some movies but games suprisingly lack that I'd also love to see much much more good characters in games either gender. Male characters are usually a stereotype too: Strong, in controll, leaders and so on. Some of us(like me) are usually not like that(I for example would suck as a leader)...Totally agree with you, would love to see more interesting characters but I doubt we will be seeing any quickly. We need the everyman as well as good, believeable female characters and not just sterotypes like the ice queen, the male hero, the reward after an adventure(*cough*Princess Peach*cough) or the shameless/obvious villain that does evil cuz of muhahaha. Fun thing(and very BAD stereotype): ever noticed that the princess is always young, beautiful and then there is an evil queen? It's always queens thinking about evil, female villains.
Oh! What I had gotten from it is that thinking of a character as a man or woman thereby ensures you think of them in the stereotypes you think of men or women. I think that men and women have their own social pressures that they can embrace or reject in complex and very human ways. I think that gender can still be important because if we don't think it it, we can end up writing what feels comfortable which, as an industry tends to be the "strong and emotionless white heterosexual male". I want to see us grow as a medium and I'm excited or the possibilities. I think we're agreeing on the message, just quibbling over whether gender = stereotypes or not.
What you described is exactly how bad female characters get written who get accused of being a man-in-diguise. Basically you're writing a gender-neutral character (or you're just writing a male character and slapping a female-sticker on his forehead) and not a female one. Couple this with action-games/movies and voilá, you have the male-in-disguise. If you want to make a good female character, you need to take things that define HER aswell as taking things that define her as a woman, and turn them into something you'd want to make a game about.
I think my romantic life would go a lot smoother if we weren't constrained by gender norms. Inspite of everything, as a guy, I'm still expected to be the one who initiates the "Romance", to make the first move, ask them out, get their number, arrange the first date, to make compromises, to make the relationship "Romantic". Because that's something that's been encoded into us by society. That "Romance" is something that a guy does for a girl to proves he is worthy of having her and she gives herself to him as a reward. Which, to me, devalues both genders. Because in romance stories, Romantic Gestures are expected of the male. And when we see the opposite, people expect that it is an uneven, unhappy relationship, "Oh, she's asking the guy out - she's proposing to the guy - she makes big romantic gestures, must mean that she's desperate/clingy/sad and he has no balls".
I feel I should mention the game Shelter. Since this video came out, a game available on GOG has come out where you play a mother badger who must guide and protect her young. It has a sequel I haven't looked in to, but I hear a lot of good things about these games. If you want to experience motherhood in gaming, play Shelter. Apparently it will make you feel things. Plus... badgers. Insert Weebl joke here.
Props to you guys for showing Leliana from the Dragon Age series at 3:26! I always thought of her as a great example of a "True Female", because while she can be a fierce warrior and offers a bit of Fanservice, she also enjoys some naturally girly things like fonding over cute animals, gossiping and even shoe shopping. This is one case where her gender makes up parts of her identity, as well as her actions throughout the Story!
As long as the source follows its tone, I'm fine with sexualization of characters. For example: Samus wearing a tight, revealing suit is FINE because it makes sense lore-wise for her to wear tight clothing when she is in an exosuit for the majority of the time. Baggy clothing would get uncomfortable quick. However, I find it immersion-breaking for her to wear high-heels because it doesn't make any sense in terms of usability and utility.
that was my thinking on the heels controversy as well. not that it was stereotypical, but because it makes no sense. high heels are loud and i heard they are difficult to walk in, so why would samus wear them on a job like hers?
This reminded me that I really liked Lara Croft more in the older Tomb Raider games. No, not because she had large breasts, but because she had a more pronounced personality, something a lot of modern entries in old video game series seems to have forgotten. I much prefer the version of Lara Croft that was confident, cocky, and just straight badass, compared to the new Lara Croft which is supposedly more realistic. By the way, loved the idea of a game where you play as a mother trying to get her kids out of a war-torn country. Could make for a great stealth game where you have to sneak with your kids out of the country while avoiding hostile soldiers or something like that.
2:38 Actually, there is one game that explores motherhood as a theme and does it quite well: Beyond Good And Evil. You see, Jade runs an orphanage and is trying to help out the children in it.
You know, a really accurate female character would upset male gamers I think. Imagine having (insert semi plot-centric first person shooter game series here) with one of the main playables as a lady, and a cutscene after a big fight where one of the characters asks how she's doing. A flippant "I'm fine, but I think my underwire snapped in mid combat. The damn thing's stabbing me in the boob." wouldn't be as well recieved... people would accuse that line of being written for sex appeal. Nope - it's just a female anatomy issue that also touches on the societal issue of bra construction for women... as well as a personal comfort thing (and the risk with said comfort choice)
I think it would upset some guys, they would feel weird to face "girl problems". I mean, just imagine guys playing as a girl having to find tampons because she's on her period in a game, or being slower because she's having uterus pain, lol. The same way, we could immagine a game where you are segregated for your race or whatever reason, but not everyone would want to play it. Although when you think about it, those are things that wouldn't be indispensable to making a game interesting or a true good character (female or not, luckly), so we don't really need a completely accurate character. Because let's face it, if characters where accurate to reality they wouldn't be able to do half the stuff they do on games.
88rainbowmilkshake88 Well why would we code in the whole need to respond to menstrual cycles and crap when we never code in characters taking a crap, peeing, or vomiting at the sight of disemboweled corpses? Unless it's a custcene. You're targeting a woman character for her biology - not her behaviors. Besides - if the issues a guy would face (ie character convulsing in pain/unable to move 'cause he got hit in the crotch, growing a crazy mountain-man beard because you can't shave) aren't addressed, why should the gender specific biology issues be addressed for women?
i think the braw line would be great; funny and humanizing. but it would be pretty silly for a woman soldier to not simply wear a sports braw or even tape them up like athletes do (look it up), and to take a birth control that delays mensuration. so yah, why bother coding it, since it would be ridiculous for it to ever happen to any female soldier bad ass enough to be the type of person you pretend to be in an fps.
Mikalhvi Well i thought of that because it's the only thing in witch females are different than males that is not created by society. Because society is different and people are very different, it's harder to classify something as "woman's behavior", and thought that's what you meant for a really accurate female.But i got your point on your first comment. Now, come to think of it, i call recall games where you can pee and interact with crap (duke nukem) and games where the kind of cutscenes you described happen. Female anatomy problems would be new to me, but then again, i'm a female and i hate getting my period. I don't want to revive it on a videogame. It was just a funny thought.
starbuckwhy It wouldn't be ridiculous...i mean, there's nothing you can do about it. It's a natural thing. Calling it ridiculous makes it seem like a weakness or a punishment or something (i know it does get in the way of combat and walking). But a girl should not have to be ashamed of this. Birth control and sports bras are new technologies. What about AU games set in medieval time?
Great examples of GOOD female characters. Samus (with the exception of Other M), and Ripley from Alien/Aliens (who amusingly enough was the inspiration for Samus). Their gender doesn't define them. Btw, Ripley was put in a mother-like role in Aliens (even though the girl in question wasn't her biological child).
Yeah, I've liked Anna as my personal favorite character in the Epic Battle Fantasy series mostly because of her adorable human experiences and personality. Especially her dialogues with Matt and Lance. Honestly, she's on par with my top favorite Touhou characters such as Sanae and Koishi.
You know what's funny? I was actually having a hard time trying to think of particularly moving or memorable MALE character, ironically enough. I actually find female characters are more significant just by their rarity. Lara Croft, Samus, Jade, Alyx, SHODAN, the girls from Dead Or Alive and Resident Evil... And, in the male column... Master Chief, Kratos, Solid Snake, and... Mario. And out of all of these characters, Solid Snake is the only one with a three-dimensional personality, and even then, that's fucking stretching it. Master Chief is... Master Chief, Kratos is angry for stupid reasons, and Mario is... Mario. Oh, and Duke Nukem. And don't let this fol you. I play the fuck out of video games. I barely remember the names of the protagonists from most of them. Just a small sample of me collection: Red Faction Guerrilla, RAGE, Bioshock, several Call of Duties my sister left me, several Assasin's Creed games (I do at least remember Edward Kenway from 4). I think games have sorta given the shaft, as it were, to both men and women. The women are for the fanservice and the men are just boring as fuck.
It's called make the girl the Fighter and Monk and make the men the White Mage, Black Mage and Thief. I'm doing this for an RPG, and my playtesters instantly assume: "Xavier used Attack! 150 Dmg!" "Mai used Fire! -6 Dmg!" Rather than remember "Xavier used attack: 150 Dmg!" "Mai used attack: 250 Dmg!" SOOOOOOOO Many playtesters got a game over because of this. Heh.
Nice video, got me thinking a lot on the subject and made me ponder as a writer as to how I write my characters. I just want to share how I write sex-specific characters. For writing female characters: 1. First, determine if my story really needs a believable female character 2. Establish the role of said character in the story 3. While writing said character, ask insights from female friends, or maybe even call in a favor to get them to write that character themselves if you're that trusting. Also, for writing male characters: 1. First, determine if my story really needs a believable male character 2. Establish the role of said character in the story 3. While writing said character, ask insights from female friends, or maybe even call in a favor to get them to write that character themselves if you're that trusting. Overall, I feel that men will naturally have a bias as to how they wish to perceive women, whether it be a conscious bias or not, and the same would apply to how women perceive men, and there's already some research that supports this. However, I feel that in order for one to make a deep and interesting sex-specific characters (and also gender specific), one must consider how individuals of that sex perceive themselves, and how individuals from the other sex perceive them. I mean, just as much as no one knows yourself like you do, also applies to how you do not know yourself like others do. If you want a sex-specific character to be interesting, you'll need to understand the different perspectives individuals have of the individuals of that sex. This way, the character - having been built on real-world perspectives - can feel more real and more interesting. I will not lie though that this can over-complicate your character and that this is how I design my characters, and that others might actually have a better ways to design their own characters, but I just wanted to share is all. Yet again, great video :D
I feel like Lara croft has always been a great female character especially in the legend, anniversary, and underworld games. She was really cool and was very confident in herself but also can have some anger issues when it comes to her mother.
Good rule of thumb for making characters in any medium: Unless their gender, race, sexuality, etc. Directly plays into the story (which I don't recommend, it's very hard to do well), don't start by choosing what their traits are. Make a basic character outline first before choosing their gender or sexuality.
I disagree about Samus being a great female character namely because she isn't feminine in any way (outside of Other: M). For instance if you didn't know she was female she could be assumed to be male. Hence the "big reveal" after beating the original Metroid and the fact that the instruction manual referred to Samus as a he. But your criteria is solid, explain why they conform/clash with gender roles will really make a solid character. I don't think that's mutually exclusive to women either. Challenging gender roles (in both accepting and rejecting) makes every character have more depth.
I don't doubt that, but I suppose I don't understand how Samus Aran is feminine by Japanese standards or any other standards. From the Western view Samus has only traits we assign to the male gender binary.
Wow this video is great, I really think Extra Credits is aimed towards a more intelligent audience. Let's see what good points the community can ma- nope.
I guess the way society looks at genders is what makes this difficult. Building off of stereotypes is obviously bad, but taking fully developed characters and gender-swapping them doesn't address society's pressures on them to act a certain way.
I have been noticing lately that most games that have a cardboard cutout heroine in skimpy clothes like X-Blades, Onechanbara, Blades of Time and a few others have been selling very poorly. Hopefully this would give developers the impression that sex doesn't sell anymore and give them an incentive to give actual depth to their characters, male and female alike.
I don't have an issue with seeing a brave, stubborn heroine taking on a male villain. If anything, I welcome it. To me, it shows that an action girl's badassery isn't limited to designated girl fights and it solidifies them as absolute badasses. And if you still want a designated girl fight, well, Nariko fought Whiptail, so I hope that gave you your fix.
Neil Gaskin Wow. You ''are'' nitpicking. Yes, a discussion like this should end here. Okay, can I hear someone rational responding to my comments this time?
Wow! Very well done. I admit I was a little nervous that you might give the typical BBC type talk of here's why women are so much better than men and the video would irritate me with PC propaganda. But no it was a much wiser discussion of gender in art than I often hear. Good stuff to think about.
sMystRyn That's the point. She's a female but there's absolutely no emphasis on it. She's just another human being who happens to be of the female sex. Isn't that what true gender equality is about - when gender just doesn't matter anymore? I know it doesn't exactly fit the video, but I felt like (perhaps irrationally) she should have been mentioned anyways.
***** Then again, Valve main characters often don't have any personality to them either. They seem to be less than characters and more of a blank slate to put yourself in.
Yeah, they do have a bit of a backstory. From what I know about it though, I don't think it really says much about who they are. Then again, I don't know everything about the characters so maybe there is something that does a bit.
tl;dr "If you want to create a truly great female character, you have to either be willing to brave those few issues which are truly unique to the feminine half of our species, or you have to give us a human being responding to ordinary societal pressures" (vis-a-vis females)
A good true female character: Frigga. Anyone that recognizes the name most likely knows exactly what I'm referring to. I know she's a comic/movie character and not a video game character, but the method of fleshing out characters in all of the above is more or less the same.
I'm trying to think of my favorite female character in games and I think I'm gonna have to say Naoto Shirogane from Persona 4 because she has to overcome societal pressure that doesn't take her seriously in the work force because of her gender. However they also make a joke concerning that despite dressing like a boy she secretly has the largest bust of the main female cast. O well they can't all be winners, but as far as the context of gaming is concern she is a fantastic example of a good female character.
Matt Murray the Persona series has some of the best female characters in gaming imo my favorite is Yukari, I could easily identify with her fear of death and uncertainty of her goals at the beggining and I enjoyed the feeling that she has my back. she also had some flaws, namely getting annoyed when you help her because she doesn't want to rely on a guy (like many real girls), but she does thank you because she acknowledges the fact you can't read her mind and only mean well (something not all girls do) I practically fell in love with her
I am part of a team of aspiring game developers, where I am in the role of graphic design, story telling, and general game director for the projects I personally invest most of my time in. What I like to say is that these videos help me a lot with shaping the game I wish to make while also taking in account what is possible for us as young independent and relatively new game developers. I am planning to create a female protagonist and your videos have had a great impact on how I will go about it. Therefore I want to say thanks, even if you don't read this. So, thanks, Extra Credits.
Personally, in at least 1 world setting that I'd like to design, I'd very much like to explore what a hypothetical society would be like, where gender roles are vastly different from what we, as members of a predominantly patriarchal society, are used to, when that society is made predominantly matriarchal due to sex-selective population control mechanisms that limit how many male children each family can afford to raise, but not do so for females, all while encouraging some population growth (as the Soviet Union did through tax cuts for married couples that have children). Imagine what society would be like if a "One Son Policy" (like China's One Child Policy, only applying towards male children only) is being enforced in it. (I'd imagine that polygyny would need to be legalized to reduce unrest from women fighting eachother over marrying certain men.)
Like I said, I'd imagine that polygyny would need to be legalized in such a matriarchal society. Otherwise, the excess women would cause unrest by fighting over the limited number of men, or be forced to marry outside of their society. If polygyny were legalized, then that'd at least mean that most of the women would be forced to share a husband instead of fighting over one. I'd imagine that life would be similar to living in a Middle Eastern harem, with the husband under an obligation to provide for each of his wives, lest they leave him for another husband. However, since the women would be dominant in a matriarchal society that allows polygyny, they would probably take on many of the gender roles that are typical of males in our predominantly patriarchal societies, such as raising money to feed their families, thus freeing up alot of responsibility from the husband, whom would probably be expected to take on the role of housewife, or househusband if you will. This would ensure that such an arrangement would be viable even for the lower classes of society. Of course, child-bearing would still be exclusive to the women.
Zarya from Overwatch. She is badass incarnate, and an almost champion weightlifter. She would've become a champion, had she decided to continue weightlifting rather than drop everything and take up arms in defense of her country. And boy did she take up arms with a gun that houses it's own black hole! She ripped it off of an AFV in the heat of battle and has held onto ever since, mind you, the gun itself is too heavy for an average soldier to wield unassisted.
There are a few horror games that scratched the surface of having a maternity-related theme. For example: 'The Park', a horror game where you play a mother trying to find her child in (you guessed it) an abandoned theme park. But I feel that this example doesn't really give the maternity theme full credit. The possibility of losing the child clearly frightens the mother, but the gamers themselves are scared by the other things in the game. (scary faces, jumpscares, noises, you know, horror stuff.) If we, the gamers, aren't connected to the child like the mother which we play, we wouldn't experience the deep evolutionary fear of losing one's child. Honestly, I think that this fear could be extremely powerful, and remains largely untapped in the game industry today.
I feel like another theme that isn't explored to greatly in games is families. You mentioned that very few games have a theme of motherhood, and I'm betting there aren't many games that focus on parenthood in general. One of my favorite game series, the legend of zelda, has family almost completely absent from the plot. I don't understand why the developers would have Link's family completely absent from most games. Some people I've talked to claim that Link having parents or sibling would prevent him from going out on his adventures, but in The Windwaker, we see that Link having a sibling actually makes the plot more meaningful. Do you have any ideas for why few games do this?
"Challenging one gender norm or another" is not a recipe for creating a good female or male character, one could just say that they must have some other divergence from whatever is more usual, but regarding something unrelated to gender. There can be good characters, male or female, that don't deviate from gender norms any more than the average individual fluctuations (it's not like everyone is following laws and being "100% socially feminine" or masculine).
On the other hand, I would love to see an RPG game that plays into the idea of different gender perception in a way that is meaningful to the gameplay, but at the same time doesn't change the character itself - just the context. Stuff like exactly same dialogue lines ending in combat in only one case, bluff/intimidation differences, different arcs etc.; in general making the world presented be main difference in relation to gender chosen by the player - applying norms, not traits.
It's strange how a lot of the female playable characters we have are just there so the female players won't feel "left out", often being pink and wearing a skirt or a dress- take pretty much any game with only 1 choice of a female character out of a few, I guarantee they'll be pink, wear female clothes, both or something else commonly considered feminine. While non playable female characters have a reputation of being a plot/player driver, without any other characterisation (peach, zelda. I can't name that many, I generally don't play those kind of games, but I've seen it a lot before).how did this influence even come about? Was it back when games were first made as 'toys for boys'? Or simply because of the past belief/essence of 'man = hero, women = victim'?
Combinations. Though to the larger point with what Nintendo did and did right is they didn't make gaming as a "Toys for Boys" but as Games built on the basis of being just really great games. As for stories that could be played, one did back when have a bit of a limited palette of sorts of what one could do and get away with doing for a start. And ironically only for it that we could get Samus Aran as the end-all hunter she and as a 'she' could be... yet still with some degree of sex appeal thrown in to make sure people stayed tuned after. Good things times change, eh? XD But yeah, maybe as the Scales & Palette's of the Sex, Gender, Preferences, and Masculine/Feminine sorts get better fleshed out and brought into the norm of society as 'just a thing', we can hope to see more dynamic & better overall characterization for casts to include Male & Female leads overall. ^_^
ZGuy0fSci Great comment! The thing is female colours are limited to pink and purple in the games that I'm talking about, while the male colours are anything but pink and purple.
Julia Binarystar at least with Heavy Armor & Tanks, "Gender Politics" have no place nor matter. ^_< * I'm really wanting to get back into WoT if not for the whole "WG -> Communists" thing, but at the least Armored Warfare is on its way. ^-^ You do much gaming?
Why are you criticizing it if you don't play these sort of games? Modern games in the RPG genre, especially the western ones where the story doesn't demand a specific protagonist, let you make your own character. Bioware's stuff is a good example, but the Elder Scrolls games have it, too, and progressive views on things like homosexuality (by having it a complete and utter non-issue) Can you name any examples of games made within the last 5 years to support your claims?
" pregnancy" mechanic: toon (or class of toon) may voluntarily; or on some non-voluntary trigger, like ambush or fight loss; or both have an object/follower attach to them this condition triggers a loss of a random subset of abilities (i.e. some skills get deactivated, lose levels, the toon can't jump, toon can't use some consumables, needs to heal more often, etc) -the cost is significant to the toon, and while it's possible on random chance it's not annoying, it more than likely will be a challenge to the player this condition can be removed But if removed, there is a social cost to the player/toon (trading costs go up, some npcs dislike the player, etc) And the condition (pregnancy) may randomly kill or cause permanent/ temporary damage to the player. But after a period, the condition matures (births) into a powerfully useful benefit with maintenance costs/restrictions. my thought is that it could be a companion that resurrects the player in most circumstances and provides a powerful social boost in all/many/most circumstances (babies/little kids can be incredibly charming), or the companion provides a significant motivation/healing/etc boost. just a thought after watching the video at 3a.m. snuggling with my daughter
Thinking about female characters that neither accept nor reject societal expectations. Ellie, from the last of us, comes to mind. She continuously surprises Joel with how she takes matters into her own hands, and exceeds his expectations. For example she knows her way around a gun, she knows how to pop a clutch. On the other hand, there are several instances where she seems a bit weak without Joel's help or guidance. Like the fact that she cannot swim.
I feel Ellie's true character development takes place toward the end of the game, where she sees the giraffes, and runs off, ecstatic. It shows not a survivor hardened by the fungapocalypse to become a stone cold killer, nor does it show a fearful little girl that needs Joel's help to survive. It shows, an inquisitive, slightly whimsical, girl entering adulthood; Who, if it weren't for the rise of the shroom-people, could've grown up in a happy, loving family. In this way, we receive a TRUE female character in the fact that her character, her interests, her personality can not be completely described by words alone.
One thing this video made me realize is that we haven't had many games exploring male issues as well. Societal gender factors haven't been explored in general in games, since as he said, you can take most protagonists and gender swap them just fine without any shift in the story. At least, I thought we hadn't had a gendered game, until I remembered the recently released God of War. Kratos experiences a truly gendered issue of raising a child as a single man in a world where mothers are the default for raising children. It really made you feel the problems Kratos had, and even though I am not a father, it gave me perspective on his life. I can only hope to see the same done for women in video games, or heck, why not those who are trans or gender non-conforming or anywhere else on the gender spectrum? This same sentiment can spread to all kinds of things honestly, from race to sexuality to culture. God of War showed that you can make a compelling story based around exploring personal struggles unique to a certain demographic, and have it appeal to a wide audience. I'm sure a large amount of people who played and connected to God of War weren't single fathers, and many probably weren't male either. Give that kind of care and attention to detail to a minority group's story and you could have a powerful narrative that is both engaging and influential.
I'm viewing this video for the third or fourth time and I love the message, but it got me thinking - why should we consider 'taking care of children' as inherently feminine? Some great games explored the idea of fatherhood and of men taking care of children in desperate situations - which also means it would be nice to see women in this kind of narrative, since representation matters - and it didn't make them less masculine for it (just look at The Walking Dead by Telltale).
this was amazing. I don't even play video games but this really helped me to understand some things about how women are represented by pop culture in general.
indeed... I want my spears back... and different pauldrons... and gauntlets... and no full-face helmets for the "animal" races... and no boots... and a robe over my armour.... man, they changed alot...
Rarely do i see such an unbiased and clear view of how social pressure molds us as human beings. The video is about video game characters, i know, but these pressures are as human as we are. And this video is FIVE YEARS OLD.... Great work guys :)
What about Chell from Portal 2? Female main character, who is intelligent and capable and the main antagonist is also "female" (even though "she's" a robot), one who likes to troll you at that. Yeah she doesn't talk, and of course negative things can be said about that however, the game is mostly silent as it is and you have few interactions as it is (hardly even a soundtrack) so I consider her a cool character that is female but it does not affect or change the plot. If I was playing a male and the enemy was male it would have changed the story. But there is no greater value in having a female character over a male character, or visa versa, rather it depends on the type of story you want to tell. That being said, I do love representation of any kind in games and I would love more well-developed (personality wise ;) female characters. Or just awesome characters in general. Games are great!
I feel Chel is one of the examples of characters where gender was irrelevant. She could've been replaced by a male and the game would've been just as fun. They proved that by replacing her with a genderless robot.
Heck ya they were, Veronica was peppy and fun, sarcastic and loving but wonderfully retributive. She was also kinda gay, if I remember correctly. Meanwhile Cass was simple, honest, brutal and had this inner anger that just leapt off the screen, that and she fucked NCR boys without any attachment or love, cause sex was good. I enjoyed them both so much because they are not only radically different from each other but they have noticeable, concrete personalities and goals. They were real characters
***** And why she wanted the dress was even better. She grew up in a bunker, surrounded by religious attire and regulation. She wants a dress because it's eye catching and sexy and beautiful. All the things she thinks she lacks, and by extension, the Brotherhood lacks aswell. And your reward for getting a girl a dress, she teaches you Punching, cause in her words "Thats the gift that keeps on giving" Cass's alcoholism was really interesting, a lot of the time I noticed how angry she was and I'd agree to help but when I found out that no amount of violence would soothe her I had a real moment. Standing in the caravan barracks, surrounded by dead guards, staring at this beast of a woman. I realized, I felt sorry for her. I really fucking enjoyed New Vegas, I don't care what Extra Credits say about Fallout: NV.
Fathers can't protect their little girls? Can't teach them how to protect themselves? What the fuck, man. If anything, a great mother figure would be The Boss from MGS3.
Yeah, I've loved Reimu Hakurei back as a kid and she's definitely a strong female character. Plus she has her own dialogues for storytelling unlike Mario. Touhou was my childhood after all.
I think the one thing we can all agree on, male or female, is that all games need more dinosaur fights.
JustOneAsbesto And Dinosaur mounts!
Nothing is more bad ass that knights jousting a top triceratopses!
JustOneAsbesto Welcome to Ark.
***** Super Mario World was pretty fucking hardcore.
Reloaded Dice I was soooo exited for that then it didn't run on my computer not good enough. so I get refund but I exited more than 2 hours even thou they told me it was 4 :(
Well, Horizon Zero Dawn has your wishes granted.
I think a game with a female ninja would be cool, a lot of ninja's were women because women in ancient japan were considered weak and no threat, so a lot of good ninja's were women who could infiltrate in the court.
That consequently also means not an insignificant amount of them were most likely trained as courtesans.
Such as Mochizuki Chiyome(16th century noblewoman) who created a network of female spies.
Her recruits consisted mostly of prostitutes and orphans.
Kiwanja
it'd be a cool game tho, secretely recruiting spies while trying to assasinate someone and not get caught
Jason Schneijder I think that game exists but it takes place in NY in modern times. It's a stealth game where you play as some chick named Raiden who's girlfriend (progressive I know) keeps calling her to complain.
Red Ninja: End of Honour
It's Ps2/Xbox and I forget most of the actual story, but it involves the typical being disgraced and left to die/revenge plot most ninja games do
It's pretty romanticized and not extremely factual but it has solid gameplay and story from what I remember of it.
geisha. many were assassins.
I think the main reason "mother protecting children" stories aren't extremely common is because it's easier to kill the mother offscreen and give the main character of your media the cheapest tragic backstory in history.
And I'm not insulting Walt Disney, he's an exception because something about him feeling responsible for the death of his mother or something.
cloudfanlp I'd thank you for elaborating on that for comment readers, but the random capitalization in your comment is driving me insane. How do you capitalize "Broken", but not the words "they died because of"? I honestly want to know how this happened.
cloudfanlp Just offering advice while you compare me to mass murderers.
cloudfanlp 1. If my advice is so unimportant, why do you feel the need to openly oppose my provision of grammar advice instead of just saying "No, I won'T Change thAt, bYe." or "Huh, guess I'll try to work on it."? 2. Yes, it is a common expression, but I'm not attacking you for using incorrect grammar, I'm just explaining that you're going out of your way to capitalize things incorrectly and people will take you more seriously if you make a subtle change to your habits.
In short: You're using a phrase intended for the context of someone attacking you, I'm just trying to help you write better.
cloudfanlp I still honestly do want to understand why you are capitalizing things. It's just such a strange error to me. I understand misspellings or normal bad grammar...I'm just muting this thread instead of wasting more time with this shit.
What about all the characters who have no father and only a mother, or they're orphans? I feel like those happen just as frequently.
this is true to men as well. "men don't cry" "men are violent" "men are great in combat" "men like blue and\or darker colors" these are all society's expectations, and all men have a different relationship with these expactations.
+omer shaik And we don't really have any male characters in games that challenge or struggle their gender expectations, either.
+Davasaurous Yes we do, his name is Kanji Tatsumi.
+Jackie Kog Besides him.
+Jackie Kog Although Kanji is definitely one of my favorite characters for how he's portrayed.
Justin Larson He's one of my favorites too.
Write female CHARACTERS, not FEMALE characters.
ilikeceral3 true
Emphasis is important!
genderbending is a good way to do this
Somehow i get this
Excellent. I love this.
The problem is in games we either get a stupid, oversexualised or steriotypical women in games or we get an overly smart, overly strong "I don't give a damn about anything" woman.
yes! great case for a mother character then.
My mum always said that the most dangerous person in the world is a mother who's children have been threatened, even if she looks meek.
that kind of simple, instinctive, quiet strength is often more compelling.
why I love Carol in Walking Dead.
I once saw a news article where a tiny woman was shown lifting a car 4ft off the ground by its bumper. apparently one of her kids had been hit by it at low speed and got trapped under it alive.
they attributed it to pure adrenaline. the act of lifting the car left her bed-ridden for days but kid was fine.
NoNameC68 I find it stupid. Although I also find daisy dukes, exposed stomachs, nose rings and those odd shirts that just flap in the back stupid, if that tells you anything about my relationship with today's culture. I hear nothing but stuff about how women are oversexualized yet people wear stuff like that. Take from that what you will.
Example 1 --> Ashley From RE4
Example 2 --> Bayonetta
the Resident Evil games had women characters to begin with and actually they are really interesting and just about the average woman of today,just like the video said rejects and accepts gender norms,also they do have some advantages over men in games,like holding more guns and having a powerful gun at the start of the game !,hell jill in re1 in 1996 was a good playable character and no body would choose chris cause he starts with a knife and she starts with a gun and a knife and a lockpick !
From my point of view, the problem is that writers tend to default to male characters unless they need to make a character female for some explicit reason, like 'We need a character for the main characters mom' or 'we need a love interest for the main character' or 'the love interest for the character needs a rival or a best friend who should also be female'. Sometimes writers will remember to make background characters female from time to time, but if they're totally in the background and not meaningfully involved in the story, it doesn't really make a difference in terms of representation.
This leads to there being relatively few female characters in general, and this leads to there simply not being enough of them for them to represent any sort of believable spectrum of humanity, every one of them winds up representing a huge portion of your 'presentation of women'. If your only woman is stupid, that's your commentary on women. But if you have 10 women, in roughly equally big roles, and one of them is stupid, then it's not a commentary.
One of my favorite quotes about writing characters comes from George R. R. Martin (and, let's face it, the man's pretty excellent at it). "I think the approach that I take, whoever I'm writing about, is to remember our shared humanity, because the truth is, as much as there are differences between us, we are all basically human; we all have the same fundamental drives. It doesn't matter if I'm writing about a man or a woman, or a giant or a dwarf, or a young person or an old person; they have a certain common humanity. The have far more more in common than they have things separate." It's such an utterly simple concept, and it is so painfully overlooked by so many writers.
The quote is from the appendix section: George R. R. Martin: On the Craft of Writing, from the book Wonderbook, in case anyone was wondering,
How do you write good female characters? Well i have always thought of women as people
Wow
So many people seem to think that making a main character a good person all the time is good, I don't care what their background is, I care about the quality of their character, I need characters with flaws and strengths, goals and fears, who has normal conversations and feels human.
This is why Samus and Bayonetta are two of the best female characters. Samus is a badass and you don't know she's a female till the end of the original game. When it's revealed that she's a woman, your opinion of her being a badass hasn't changed, it's just that now you know her gender. Bayonetta differs in that she uses her womanhood as her power, she's not a badass in lieu of being a woman, she's explicitly a badass because she's a woman. The fact that she often uses her own sexuality as a weapon is what may turn some people off though.
mechanoid2k even though historically, a woman using her sexiness as a strategy to get an advantage against male opponents is both Boss as all heck, and just a really good strategy. Look up Kunoichi is you want to learn more, they were the MASTERS of this stuff.
the 1st example is kinda pointless though, because what'd the point of making someone of specific gender, when they are going to act the exact same like the other gender?
turbotrup96 Because... men and women aren’t actually that different and aspects attributed to gender are facets of a person’s personality as influenced by their environment?
Looking at the history of witches, there does appear to be a trend that a witch's power is directly tied to femininity. Given this, it's no surprise that an Umbra Witch like Bayonetta would derive power from her sexuality and womanhood.
I think Samus falls more into the middle category, "good character regardless of gender" - her gender is irrelevant to the story.
"Shelter" is actually a really interesting game about motherhood. You play as a badger trying to raise and protect a litter of babies.
Contradiction is also a good one to throw in there.
You would think, stereotypically, that a sporty 'tomboy' type character wouldn't like baking cakes or babysitting, or a gamer girl wouldn't like knitting or watching chick flicks.
Stronger contradictions or hypocritical traits also give your character depth, as long as you work out their internal logic and it remains consistent. No one does anything 'for teh randoms,' and usually their actions make perfect sense to them.
Or if they don't, explore why they made those choices.
Little known fat: at the turn of the last century, the colors we assign to boys and girls was swapped. Boys were given pink and girls were given blue. Pink was seen as being close to red, the color of action, while blue was the color of the sky and other pretty things.
krim7 yeah, and then pink became popular with girls after one woman very boldly wore pink to an important even to communicate to her male peers that she was their equal! Totally awesome power move there.
@@Munchkin.Of.Pern09 I thought it changed because the Nazi party would mark homosexual men with pink, just like how in america people would salute the president in the way we think as Nazi-like today or how the swastika was a religious symbol for eastern religions before the Nazis infamized it as a symbol of hate
Men aswell as women used to wear dresses and high heals were originally mens shoes too. Not in the modern style obviously.
The most calm and understanding argument for the issues involved with gender roles. Bravo!
Agreed. The only video made by anyone other than the Amazing Atheist in which the speaker didn't appear to be incredibly rabid.
Red Pacifist Atheists and egalitarians are prone to turning off those who should be listening to them because of their rabidness. It is hard to show how unknowing some people are if you sound just as bigoted.
Caleb Paul And it doesn't seem to cause any flame wars.
...now if only we could replicate this video with politics instead...
Matthew Love Amen!
Toriel.
Pretty good recent example of a mother-figure in a video game, I dare say.
Grandfather_Paradox true, but this video was released in 2012
Everyone loved Toriel. Even players who decided to kill her didn't want too, they just did it so they could experience the genocide route.
Goat mum is best goat
T.R Dixon what about bathtub clorox? He wanted to.
Blind Personxd - Seriously? Well, damn...
I was not snickering at the "how are men and women different" I was snickering at the "just saiyan" though.
I don't wanna talk about it too deeply because I don't want to get called out but I personally liked the idea that games can show that hey not all girls like pink or not all girls are girly but I'm starting to notice a trend that most of main female characters are the badass shoot first ask questions later type of girls which is fine but now it seems like we're overdoing it.were handholding this so much that it's becoming a new norm.
Yeah, I definitely agree with you there. It's as if a female character can only be a pink princess or a badass assassin, and not another type of person. There isn't enough variation in personality.
+Alexander Walsh Yep. One of the worst developments in female characterization is the phrase "not like other girls," which assumes the character is special/better for that reason. All it is is more sexism and (scarily) that view is probably held by the character as well.
Actually, it's easy to make a good female character:
1) Make a male character.
2) change it to female. That's it.
*My sister acts like me in many ways and she is still feminine.
The main issue is that men who create female characters stay away from feeling close to the being they shaped.
Fantasy is enjoyable, but sometimes, keeping our wet dreams away may be better.
Litterally put on the shoes (actual shoes, not high heels), think how a girl would grown up, and realise how the interrests that drive men drive women too.
If you are a pervert kind, you can create a pervert female.
Yes. If you want ecchi. Give ecchi. It won't hurt, but people did that a lot already.
Those «creatures» are so similar to something we know... Humans! Isn't it?
Even if natural muscles aren't there (but some women can reck anyone), I shall remember you: Russia prefered to have women as snipers because they thought they were more patient and precise.
That's a real life good way to appreciate women as warriors too.
But also... and a final word...
Give them armor, not a bonner to my person.
I have my porn for that.
That commentary was way too long...
Good video by the way.
oh wow smartie ! u got it all figured out.
Well, English definitely isn't your first language. But I get what you're saying.
And I agree. We have to throw away gender roles and stereotypes to get rid of sexism. The only time I've ever written a "girly" character is when I've had to write a character that conforms to societal norms.
And yes, women can be perverts as well. Take a look at the anime Panty and Stocking for that (And dear god I'm actually complimenting this series). As much as I don't like the humor in the series I will admit that they portray Panty in the sort of way that a real life Nymphomaniac would act (with a bit of added exaggeration).
And as for the armor thing, I agree there as well. I don't mind skimpy armor on a realistic level as long as it's designed to provide flexibility. "Boobplates" would actually end up acting as a sort of spear directed at two of the most vital organs you have.
+Ditto, Master of Disguise You got me. I speak french.
Vincent Pellemans I can only really say hi my name is in French, that's all I got out of my school french classes. They're mandatory until Grade 10 in Canada.
+Ditto, Master of Disguise Cela m'attriste... Et n'essaye même pas d'utilisé l'outil de traduction de google. Cela serait bien dommage de ne pas faire appel aux peu de mots que tu connais.
Entre temps, j'apprends le japonais! Encore du chemin à faire... 私は日本語でいくつかの単語を話します。
I'd say Ellie in The Last of Us is one of the best examples of a good female character in a videogame. Clementine in The Walking Dead as well, especially when she becomes a more fleshed out character in the 2nd game. Funny that they're both zombie apocalypse games, but they're the best that come to mind.
+Ben Zombie That's just good script writing and acting. Those characters were more real than you get out of most games.
+Ben Zombie Ellie is an incredible character. Beautifully written and acted by Ashley Johnson. One of the best female characters Ive ever seen.
Ellie is a fucking badass and I love her.
I'd say The Last of Us is a good example. For the majority of scenes perhaps the fact Ellie is female isn't that relevant, following their criteria of "if this character was a different gender, would it change anything?". However, I would have said that the scene where Ellie is captured by David addressing some of these issues well, like the rape/sexual assault of a minor. It's a powerful scene and the Ellie's responses to it are dealt with very well I think.
I 100% agree.
How to write female characters:
Step one: Write a character
Step two: Make it female
Wow! Nice guide
not a good advice, because male and female natures make them different at their core, so their needs and goals will probably differ too
basicaly what you don't need to do
*step 3 make the adjustments needed for the original character to be female
@@turbotrup96 I mean not really. People's goals don't really change if you change their gender.
I need a funny female evil mad scientist. Is it too much t ask for?! Apparently yes...
+Poke Tiny Tina? I mean, she plays for the good guys, but I wouldn't say she's truly "good".
+azuarc Shes more like chaotic good.
+lexzeyfercronus No at BEST chaotic Neutral
in fact almost all of the secondary characters are neutral in borderlands 2. they just HAPPEN to be pissed off at the bad guy. there are exceptions though, like Roland for example, who somewhat strived to be good. I haven't played 1 or the pre-sequel though so I don't know about the characters involved there.
thatguydownthestreat Well,Borderlands 1 dosnt develop the main characters so you are not missing much. The presequel explains some stuff but i cant say for sure,havent played it.
+Poke Do we need a sequel to "Rats of Mechanicsburg"? ;)
I think that the reason so many female characters are written poorly is because the writers view them as a woman first and foremost rather than a human. It's as if they think being female is a defining trait in its own right, which obviously it isn't. Write a character rather than a gender - if they're a good character then it shouldn't matter whether or not they're male or female. It would be interesting to see the pressures of gender roles explored in gaming, but I don't think the industry is ready for it yet, at least not with male game designers.
Also, I wish I hadn't read the comments on this videos. Some people have really twisted views on gender.
Why do all female characters that are labeled as progressive have to be heavily involved with society and gender roles? Why is it that we can't have strong female characters without them being related to these topics? Just a thought.
because people don't know what they want
Careful what you wish for, now strong female characters are basically in every movie even though they’re just stereotypical men with breasts.
"A mother protecting her children across a war torn country"
What, regular escort missions weren't bad enough, now you want escort missions that have you trying to prevent your escortees from putting forks in light sockets and silently wandering off without you? Then you want to make us emotionally attached to them?
i dont think they would have working light sockets in a war torn country man. i thought more along the lines of trying to survive each day as a woman with 3 children and how fierce and fragile mothers can be for their children etc. the concept is realllly interesting for me idk how u cant see that
That would be one hell of a stealth game.
just make it a story based game like Minecraft story mode and the walking dead and your golden
It doesn't have to be escort mission. Think in the style of "This war of mine", but with a mother with a "dead father figure" trying to have her children survive the war, may or maybe not at the cost of her own life.
Shelter and Shelter 2 accomplishes the goal of protecting and tending for young really well without being just an escort mission(where you play as a mama badger and lynx respectively). And This War of Mine with The Little Ones DLC adds the caring aspect too. Protecting by intervention is part, but in all 3 part of the gameplay involves teaching the young the skills they need and locating resources.
Or you know... you could create a character with a believable personality and who makes believable choices?
"Give us your lunch money"
"We're about to be eaten by dinosaurs"
"That's no excuse"
Shelter was an interesting idea. You played as a Mother Badger looking after her children as you search for Shelter, food, and try to keep them alive.
I agree. I nominate as Shelter to be the best game about the struggle of motherhood to date! I felt like a freaking mama badger...
Damn, what does that really say about the industry? lol
That actually sounds like what Mother 3 did- of course the whole idea of Hinawa trying to save her boys from getting killed by the Dinosaur didn't last very long.
I think it not going to work well. As far as I know, when guys play that game he wouldn't care about baby but focus on shooting around the enemies. In this case, there is no difference between male protagonist and female one. Yet another post-apocalyptic FPS. If women play those game they expect something like "Lemmings" game. Something more focused on leading and guiding the children. Maybe this is prejudice but I think male player tends to interest in destruction and exploration but female players prefer storytelling and atmosphere. Maybe they don't even care about gender of protagonist (unless she/he is feminist or something). This is the reason why hard to develop "True Female Characters". Because both male and female players don't care about it.
wow i was typing something about shelter when i looked down and saw your comment and was like: "Dammit..."
Piyo Hoge No, I would definitely care about the babies. Men, as far as I know, are pressured to be the providers, the protectors of the family. Besides, nobody likes a dead baby :(
To make a good *female* character rather than just a *good character whose sex doesn't matter*, you need to use some difference(s) between men and women.
If game developers try to use the biological differences between males and females, it's "sexist because you're sexualising and objectifying women". (Despite men recieving equal treatment)
If game developers try to use psychological differences between males and females, it's "sexist because you're stereotyping women".
If game developers try to use sociological differences between males and females, it's "sexist because you're normalizing gender roles of men and women which are social constructs".
Feminists claim to want more good female characters, but seem to be trying to make it as fucking difficult as they can.
k
Thanks for adding to the discussion. Go back to your safe space now. :)
Fernie, everything he said is genuinely true. *A lot* of modern feminists are really making everything about females - and a lot of other things - very _very_ difficult for everyone.
Do you not get it?
+Ian Colter Tkach ...and Mei and Zarya and Anna see how instead of taking everything as a whole people like you cherry pick the things you want to show just to force your point to be true? That is why modern day feminists are laughed at.
"Trying to protect her children while crossing a war torn country"
No. NO. That sounds a lot better on paper but by god, that would be way too likely a game that is just one giant painful escort mission! And escort missions suck, they're so hard to get right!
If you don't care enough to make it good yea, but if you actually care, then you can make it good. Good example is ico
Solarius The Blaziken don't think of it as an escort mission game, with your kids being npcs with health bars, think of an game on the Beyond two souls style, with multyple ends and choices, with an pretty detailed story and quick time events done right, like quantic dream and telltale do.
Solarius The Blaziken it could work if you only had to look after one baby, where you must carry him/her with both hands and must find a safe place to put down/hide them to defend yourself through combat. Throw in a calming the crying baby mechanic and you have the base for an interesting stealth game
Have you played The Last Of Us? That game's entire premise is an escort mission and it is phenomenal.
Doesn't have to be an escort mission. Could just involve you going out and getting what you and your kid need to survive while the kid is safe somewhere. Example: Dead Rising 2: This game is about a father trying to protect his kid during a Zombie outbreak. I immediately thought of this game when he said that concept.
Just saying to anyone watching this video now, it's coming up on 2 years old, and we HAVE seen some excellent female characters show up since then: the NEW Lara Croft pulls it off nicely for most of the game, any female character from the walking dead make a perfect match (especially Clementine), and we tend to see much fewer "guys with boobs" in games these days.
The real push to make any "true" character would be to address that character with any discriminating trait as normal to the player and ask them to make choices in that character's place, thereby creating meaningful immersion in the character. The issues of that character's traits should still be brought up in the decisions they are forced to make, but not in a way that would alienate them for who they are, or more importantly, who the player THINKS they are.
People, do the Thumbs Up thing to this comment ^ so that it stays at the top of the stack.
For my own part, I'm surprised they didn't mention Chell anywhere in that video, she's pretty widely credited as being one of the most normal-human-being female video game characters in living memory.
2andaHalfStooges I would also like to point a thumbs up to the guys at Might and Delight for making Shelter, a game about a mother badger as she crosses the open wilds with her four children searching for food, encountering dangers from hawks to floods to ridiculously strong wing gusts. It may have not captured the hearts of critics, but it taps in to the struggle of a mother like no other game has so far been capable of doing. This is exactly what was being discussed at 2:20.
***** I mean characters that are essentially male in their mannerisms, the way they act, socialize, converse (or have a lack thereof), or their gender role. This shows up a lot in "combat" games where it's a male character in the context of the story, just with a female body and sometimes voice filling the role. A guy with a pair of boobs strapped on.
the "man with boobs character" is a result of feminism
you put a stereotypical male power fantasy character in a female body because "women are as good as men, you sexist pig", the result is an anoying preachy and unrealistic character wich was made to prove a point (in the worst way).
***** I guess this video's more about taking advantage of the inherent female characteristics part, but I think the "protagonist is a woman, so what" is just it. The designers could have just as easily made the protagonist a dude on HGH or a blonde in a bathing suit, but they didn't, and I think the Portal games turned out a lot better for it.
Tip to any writers/designers trying to create a strong female character: Create a strong character, and make them female.
+tSp289 They should just create all of their characters, then sort those out that are dependent of and defined by their gender (there is nothing wrong with that, for the record, some characters need a fitting gender to work, no problem)
And then take the rest and just flip a coin for everyone XD
+tSp289 This misses the point. They mention that there are specific female issues which can be explored. While there are characters which are great regardless of gender, there are also cases where the gender is relevant to who the character is, either in the social expectations they face or stuff like motherhood.
Erik Nielsen Social expectations depend entirely on the setting, and as a writer you are in control of the setting and therefore the expectations. In my experience, there are very few actual differences between men and women that are not entirely defined by our expectations and assumptions. The idea of a 'strong female character' assumes weakness in other female characters, so in its own small way it propagates the problem.
+Erik Nielsen CAN BE explored, not necessarily have to be explored. In fact if it contributes nothing to the story it shouldn't be included, and it's not going to contribute to the story unless there are more people who want to make those sorts of stories. Currently there aren't, and that's not a problem, it's just not important.
calvaughan27 Precisely. Joel from the Last of Us could easily have been Joelene without changing his character at all.
Shelter and Shelter 2 are two good examples of games taking the female gender "mother" role. Pretty good games.
+Tyboroth True - but they're about animals. You can't really expect girls to be happy with "look, here's some excellent female characters and the story is about the trials of motherhood" and show them a badger and a lynx. Shelter and Shelter 2 are good games about motherhood and survival but from a non-humanoid perspective and so I don't think they can be counted on as examples...
+Loulybob Yeah, but I don't think he was saying that you should be happy with it. I wanted to recommend these games myself - not because it's all we need, but because people craving those types of themes in video games might get some of that from Shelter and Shelter 2.
***** I never said I wanted a realistic motherhood experience. Having characters that have children/are expecting children and having to deal with the trials of that (or even just alluding to these trials) is enough.
P.s. Going "if you want a realistic experience then go do it in real life" is a poor argument. "If you want a realistic FPS war game, join the army in real life!", "If you want a realistic sports sim - go play the sport in real life!". Video games are video games and we enjoy them for different reasons.
***** I'm not saying there's anything wrong with those things IRL either. I'm just saying it's not a reason to not have a video game about those experiences. Video games are video games and real life is real life and arguments that mix between the two are bad (hence your argument on not needing games that have motherhood as a theme/story because people can just go have kids in real life being flawed)
+Tyboroth I was thinking that the entire time. "We've never had games that explore motherhood fertility..." Yeah, Shelter 1 and 2. "There's never been a game exploring motherhood or putting the player in a mother type role" Shelter!
"Although I will contend that a game where you play a mother who sacrifices herself for her children can really be the first one to break you down and cry." SHELTER SHELTER SHELTER SHELTER SHELTER SHELTER SHELTER SHELTER SHELTER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This is strange. Even though you show that you're aware of good examples of good female characters in epic narratives, you act as though those don't count. What I mean is that while you were talking, I was thinking of characters like Final Fantasy X's Yuna (and come to think of it, Lulu, too, whom we were introduced to as Yuna's surrogate mother/older sister figure, before she later became an actual mother) and the female characters in Tales of Symphonia (especially Sheena and Raine), only for you to eventually give a nod towards Yuna having met your criteria.
Also, female characters often do have examples of more dexterity and pain tolerance. It's very common for female characters to have better speed (not just outright speed, but specifically wind-up and cool-downs between attacks for combo'ing), but also an actual dexterity stat that, in video games, aids in things like archery, or dagger use (even though realistic archery is more about strength). In Resident Evil 4's Mercenary mode, the female character reloads faster than the others in the mode (they have static stats in this mode) and in RE2, Jill is the "Master of Unlocking" (she's a lock-picking ace) and can handle more items. Magic is sometimes tied to dexterity stats, which female characters are also usually better at. As for pain tolerance, it's almost as common to have a tank-y spell-casting female character as it is to have a squishy spell-casting female character, even though there aren't many tank-y spell-casting male characters. This even shows up in games like Pokemon, where the female Miltank is… a tank, whereas her male counterpart, Tauros, is not as pain-tolerant. Nidoqueen does this as well, when compared to Nidoking, as do their earlier forms. In Squaresoft games, it's common for female characters to get better equipment that lets them be more harm-tolerant.
Great examples.
Let's not forget the oldest example of a non-video game character who is more dexterous than her male counterpart: the Queen in Chess.
*Even though you show that you're aware of good examples of good female characters in epic narratives, you act as though those don't count.*
Not sure where you think they indicated that these characters don't count.
I don't recall them anywhere in the video claiming that we have no good female characters at all, or claiming that the good examples don't count.
Can you explain to me, where you see this?
+The Cloud
You have a point, they flip-flop between speaking in absolutes and noting that some things are rarely done, but they say confusing things such as, "… we've been waiting for the industry to provide us with a good, topical example of a well-done female character, but unfortunately, nothing really helpful has come out…" and "… we've yet to see a video game that really addresses themes of motherhood, fertility or other childbearing issues… " I guess my point was that the scrip of this video has inconsistent, or misleading wording.
Well, they did mention topical, so I guess it depends on what games came out in the months leading up to the making/release of this video.
But yeah, they didn't really need to focus on "current" examples. There are plenty of good female characters to talk about.
For the record, the opposite or a cardboard cutout of a female character who likes pinks and nurtures and is demure is not a badass with no emotions who blows things up and castrates the men around her for fun. Both extremes are boring and unbelievable. (Not to say that's what you suggested was a good female character, just that it seems to be what devs think of when they decide they want to write a 'strong female character'.)
Pearl Carol Actually a badass chick with no emotion who blows things up and castrates men would be so hot in a vid game ;D
HighCalibur Then go play Bayonetta or something. It has pretty much already been done.
Pearl Carol Because you'd only be trading one single-dimensional character for another. You can create realistic female characters using either of these extremes as a template, the secret is depth. You can have a female, vindictive, murderous hellion as your protagonist, but with no backstory or development beyond that, that's all she is.
CallMeCactusSok That was... kind of exactly my point. Writers (of all media, not just games) seem to be under the impression that the opposite of a blank slate, generic female character is an angry, loud woman who has no emotions and probably hates men. The truth of the matter is, a flat caricature is still a flat caricature, even if you paint a different face on her.
Pearl Carol
Yes, I was agreeing with you. Depth can add realism to an initially absurd character. Both Pink Girl and Castration Woman can be realistic given enough other characteristics.
I laughed more at the fact he gave us a moment, rather than actually giggling about the difference between men and women. These guys are amazing.
Just found this channel today and its freakin awesome, never crossed my mind that games had to be thought about in this level of depth for them to be conceived and also be good when released, insta-subscribe
"Top heavy genetic anomalies"
I think one thing that could put you on the path towards a good and relatable female character is this: have a story not based on action in general, and violence in particular.
Let's step away from games and into movies for a moment. For decades we've voiced and heard the complaints: all women are just damsels in distress. What we really needed were strong female characters. So Hollywood did something about it. They started writing women who kill dudes better than any man, and usually rub their faces in it too. Surprisingly, this did not go over as well as expected. Nowadays these roles are often called "strong female characters" (with quotation marks) or even men with boobs.
Why did that happen? Possibly because the whole being a violent ass-kicker thing is just, on average, more of a male fantasy. If a typical woman has heard one too many stories about break ins and hears a noise while she's alone in the house she might start thinking "what would I do in such a situation?" Things that cross her mind are probably locking herself in a room, calling the cops, maybe pretending to sleep or sneaking out past the burglar. The typical man's thoughts would go pretty straight towards "but do I take the baseball bat, or the lighter-deodorant combo?"
This is not true for all men and all women under all circumstances, but it is at least one thing that can help in putting down good female characters. Think of Twilight. Yes, it's a painfully stupid series, but it attracted loads of female fans, and not just for the pretty boys. Bella, as shallow and weird as she is, is at least a distinctly female character, relatable to the audience. She's a damsel about half the time, but she also has plot of her own. But the best current example is probably Frozen. In any other movie Else would have pointed to that cliff face she wanted to climb and have scaled it easily, leaving reindeer-guy stumped, no matter that she was a sheltered princess and he was a professional mountaineer. Still she is not a damsel, at all. She solves all of the major situations in the movie with feelings and talking and delegating and even running away, basically anything but being an action hero. On one hand it's a brilliant movie making effort, on the other it's kind of weird it took us so long.
So, a non-violent and generally maybe kind of action-light character, in a story where any other skill a person could have becomes the deciding factor. That seems a step towards good female characters.
Wow, I really needed this as a writer. I always thought that the most important thing I should do with my female characters is make sure their gender is just a small part of their character, however maybe looking at how they react and reject society could be awesome too. I should probably do the same for my male characters. In fact, where the hell did I put my notebook this is all golden. Also, if any of my fellow writers are looking for something that does what they describe in this video here right, then check out the Parasol Protectorate book series. It addresses some of the mentioned factors well in my opinion.
Me too! Im making my own comic series and even though i wasnt going to make my main female character stereotypical, I couldnt find that special... thing. Now that i know about those societal pressure stuff, im gonna use that. Thanks Extra Credit!
Interesting. I must check it when I get the chance!
I similarly needed this. I was struggling with precisely what distinguishes the difference between well written male and female characters. This overview highlighted some of the key things that really define how gender plays a role in both their persona and their actions. After a marathon session of writing I fundamentally changed the way that the female character in my current work both accepts and rejects the pressures of her society in a way that makes the character feel so much more human. This video greatly enriched the character and inspired a much stronger plot line and so you have my thanks Extra Credits.
Late to this, but I'll comment anyway. The best way to make a female character in a game is to have a character where the gender is never called into question and just doesn't become a big deal at all. Characters like Samus Aran, and Redfield are great at this because it doesn't matter what the gender is, the character takes care of business.
The reason that people assumed that Samus was a guy the first play through back in the day wasn't because she was a truly awesome fighter or anything, it was because we just don't expect most game characters to be female. Does it take away from the game that she is? No, but it doesn't add anything to the game either. So when making a good female character just make a great game and worry about the gender of the character later, because in the end, the game is about the game play not the game character.
I know this is an old one, but the fact that is older and equally as GREAT as the newer ones is amazing.
give this man 1 mil already
Good job pointing out Persona here. You get a cookie Extra Credits.
A great character is written as a character first without thinking of them as being female first.
If you write them as female first you either get a stereotype or an ice queen...both don't make for a good character and especially the last one I hate the most. The 90s. loved to do these ice queens that are tough but with a soft core...that's not how all women of this world work...maybe a handful.
I got no really good, female character on my mind currently but if I were to pick one I would have a hard time coming up with one. The writting in gaming is still in the 90s. in that retrospective.
I agree. I think you'll have to look at movies and TV series to actually find well-written female characters.
In terms of character gender, you should only decide on it based on, as said, the character clashing with the norms within their society, or because of integrating one of those hard-to-tackle biological differences into the story. I can't see any other reason why you should choose one gender over the other. Of course, in that case, you'll end up with a lot of characters who are just arbitrarily woman or man, and the question is if that will turn out even better. Perhaps one should reserve the detailed writing only for the main characters and let the side characters be more stylistic and stereotypical, to contrast that one good character... Hm.
You're right, women being written as stereotypes does exist within many different forms of media. However, I don't think this means it should be struck from the creation process, only that there should be a push to make the character just as complex, interesting, and flawed as we do male characters. We often think of gender when we first establish a character, because being a man or a woman can make drastically different reactions or stories in games. I'm interested to see what new characters will come from that.
Kat Harnois
That is EXACTLY what I mean with "A great character is written as a character first without thinking of them as being female first.".
There are some examples in TV shows or some movies but games suprisingly lack that I'd also love to see much much more good characters in games either gender. Male characters are usually a stereotype too: Strong, in controll, leaders and so on. Some of us(like me) are usually not like that(I for example would suck as a leader)...Totally agree with you, would love to see more interesting characters but I doubt we will be seeing any quickly.
We need the everyman as well as good, believeable female characters and not just sterotypes like the ice queen, the male hero, the reward after an adventure(*cough*Princess Peach*cough) or the shameless/obvious villain that does evil cuz of muhahaha.
Fun thing(and very BAD stereotype): ever noticed that the princess is always young, beautiful and then there is an evil queen? It's always queens thinking about evil, female villains.
Oh! What I had gotten from it is that thinking of a character as a man or woman thereby ensures you think of them in the stereotypes you think of men or women. I think that men and women have their own social pressures that they can embrace or reject in complex and very human ways. I think that gender can still be important because if we don't think it it, we can end up writing what feels comfortable which, as an industry tends to be the "strong and emotionless white heterosexual male". I want to see us grow as a medium and I'm excited or the possibilities.
I think we're agreeing on the message, just quibbling over whether gender = stereotypes or not.
What you described is exactly how bad female characters get written who get accused of being a man-in-diguise.
Basically you're writing a gender-neutral character (or you're just writing a male character and slapping a female-sticker on his forehead) and not a female one. Couple this with action-games/movies and voilá, you have the male-in-disguise.
If you want to make a good female character, you need to take things that define HER aswell as taking things that define her as a woman, and turn them into something you'd want to make a game about.
I think my romantic life would go a lot smoother if we weren't constrained by gender norms.
Inspite of everything, as a guy, I'm still expected to be the one who initiates the "Romance", to make the first move, ask them out, get their number, arrange the first date, to make compromises, to make the relationship "Romantic". Because that's something that's been encoded into us by society. That "Romance" is something that a guy does for a girl to proves he is worthy of having her and she gives herself to him as a reward. Which, to me, devalues both genders.
Because in romance stories, Romantic Gestures are expected of the male. And when we see the opposite, people expect that it is an uneven, unhappy relationship, "Oh, she's asking the guy out - she's proposing to the guy - she makes big romantic gestures, must mean that she's desperate/clingy/sad and he has no balls".
I feel I should mention the game Shelter. Since this video came out, a game available on GOG has come out where you play a mother badger who must guide and protect her young. It has a sequel I haven't looked in to, but I hear a lot of good things about these games. If you want to experience motherhood in gaming, play Shelter. Apparently it will make you feel things.
Plus... badgers. Insert Weebl joke here.
Will make you feel things huh ?! Sounds like a game worth playing lol
Well, mostly it'll make you feel like a terrible mother...
wayfareangel A sequel has come out, rejoice!
Props to you guys for showing Leliana from the Dragon Age series at 3:26! I always thought of her as a great example of a "True Female", because while she can be a fierce warrior and offers a bit of Fanservice, she also enjoys some naturally girly things like fonding over cute animals, gossiping and even shoe shopping. This is one case where her gender makes up parts of her identity, as well as her actions throughout the Story!
As long as the source follows its tone, I'm fine with sexualization of characters. For example: Samus wearing a tight, revealing suit is FINE because it makes sense lore-wise for her to wear tight clothing when she is in an exosuit for the majority of the time. Baggy clothing would get uncomfortable quick. However, I find it immersion-breaking for her to wear high-heels because it doesn't make any sense in terms of usability and utility.
that was my thinking on the heels controversy as well. not that it was stereotypical, but because it makes no sense. high heels are loud and i heard they are difficult to walk in, so why would samus wear them on a job like hers?
biokuta7 it could make sense if she wore boots that lock into the suit kind of like skiing shoes. But high-heels are stupid.
In the field, maybe. Nothing's stopping Sammy from slipping into a minidress and some pumps for a date during her off time.
This reminded me that I really liked Lara Croft more in the older Tomb Raider games. No, not because she had large breasts, but because she had a more pronounced personality, something a lot of modern entries in old video game series seems to have forgotten. I much prefer the version of Lara Croft that was confident, cocky, and just straight badass, compared to the new Lara Croft which is supposedly more realistic.
By the way, loved the idea of a game where you play as a mother trying to get her kids out of a war-torn country. Could make for a great stealth game where you have to sneak with your kids out of the country while avoiding hostile soldiers or something like that.
***** Shows where your mind is, and why you're still single. -.-
2:38 Actually, there is one game that explores motherhood as a theme and does it quite well: Beyond Good And Evil. You see, Jade runs an orphanage and is trying to help out the children in it.
"problems that male designers can relate to":
-Sir, the Singularity is about to explode!
-Weapons at maximum, captain!
'reloads machine gun'
You know, a really accurate female character would upset male gamers I think. Imagine having (insert semi plot-centric first person shooter game series here) with one of the main playables as a lady, and a cutscene after a big fight where one of the characters asks how she's doing. A flippant "I'm fine, but I think my underwire snapped in mid combat. The damn thing's stabbing me in the boob." wouldn't be as well recieved... people would accuse that line of being written for sex appeal. Nope - it's just a female anatomy issue that also touches on the societal issue of bra construction for women... as well as a personal comfort thing (and the risk with said comfort choice)
I think it would upset some guys, they would feel weird to face "girl problems". I mean, just imagine guys playing as a girl having to find tampons because she's on her period in a game, or being slower because she's having uterus pain, lol. The same way, we could immagine a game where you are segregated for your race or whatever reason, but not everyone would want to play it. Although when you think about it, those are things that wouldn't be indispensable to making a game interesting or a true good character (female or not, luckly), so we don't really need a completely accurate character. Because let's face it, if characters where accurate to reality they wouldn't be able to do half the stuff they do on games.
88rainbowmilkshake88 Well why would we code in the whole need to respond to menstrual cycles and crap when we never code in characters taking a crap, peeing, or vomiting at the sight of disemboweled corpses? Unless it's a custcene. You're targeting a woman character for her biology - not her behaviors. Besides - if the issues a guy would face (ie character convulsing in pain/unable to move 'cause he got hit in the crotch, growing a crazy mountain-man beard because you can't shave) aren't addressed, why should the gender specific biology issues be addressed for women?
i think the braw line would be great; funny and humanizing.
but it would be pretty silly for a woman soldier to not simply wear a sports braw or even tape them up like athletes do (look it up), and to take a birth control that delays mensuration.
so yah, why bother coding it, since it would be ridiculous for it to ever happen to any female soldier bad ass enough to be the type of person you pretend to be in an fps.
Mikalhvi
Well i thought of that because it's the only thing in witch females are different than males that is not created by society. Because society is different and people are very different, it's harder to classify something as "woman's behavior", and thought that's what you meant for a really accurate female.But i got your point on your first comment.
Now, come to think of it, i call recall games where you can pee and interact with crap (duke nukem) and games where the kind of cutscenes you described happen. Female anatomy problems would be new to me, but then again, i'm a female and i hate getting my period. I don't want to revive it on a videogame. It was just a funny thought.
starbuckwhy
It wouldn't be ridiculous...i mean, there's nothing you can do about it. It's a natural thing. Calling it ridiculous makes it seem like a weakness or a punishment or something (i know it does get in the way of combat and walking). But a girl should not have to be ashamed of this.
Birth control and sports bras are new technologies. What about AU games set in medieval time?
Great examples of GOOD female characters. Samus (with the exception of Other M), and Ripley from Alien/Aliens (who amusingly enough was the inspiration for Samus). Their gender doesn't define them. Btw, Ripley was put in a mother-like role in Aliens (even though the girl in question wasn't her biological child).
Yeah, I've liked Anna as my personal favorite character in the Epic Battle Fantasy series mostly because of her adorable human experiences and personality. Especially her dialogues with Matt and Lance.
Honestly, she's on par with my top favorite Touhou characters such as Sanae and Koishi.
You know what's funny?
I was actually having a hard time trying to think of particularly moving or memorable MALE character, ironically enough.
I actually find female characters are more significant just by their rarity. Lara Croft, Samus, Jade, Alyx, SHODAN, the girls from Dead Or Alive and Resident Evil...
And, in the male column... Master Chief, Kratos, Solid Snake, and... Mario. And out of all of these characters, Solid Snake is the only one with a three-dimensional personality, and even then, that's fucking stretching it. Master Chief is... Master Chief, Kratos is angry for stupid reasons, and Mario is... Mario.
Oh, and Duke Nukem.
And don't let this fol you. I play the fuck out of video games. I barely remember the names of the protagonists from most of them. Just a small sample of me collection: Red Faction Guerrilla, RAGE, Bioshock, several Call of Duties my sister left me, several Assasin's Creed games (I do at least remember Edward Kenway from 4).
I think games have sorta given the shaft, as it were, to both men and women. The women are for the fanservice and the men are just boring as fuck.
Good to see your analytical skills are as good as an average game journalist during the 2010s.
Avatar franchise (especially Korra): I think is an awesome franchise with strong original, independent and intimidating female characters.
The "character growth" joke that showed up at 5:22 for 1 second is honestly the funniest thing I've seen all day.
It's called make the girl the Fighter and Monk and make the men the White Mage, Black Mage and Thief.
I'm doing this for an RPG, and my playtesters instantly assume:
"Xavier used Attack! 150 Dmg!"
"Mai used Fire! -6 Dmg!"
Rather than remember
"Xavier used attack: 150 Dmg!"
"Mai used attack: 250 Dmg!"
SOOOOOOOO Many playtesters got a game over because of this.
Heh.
+Kokiri Kid " -6 " LOL. I totally see what you are going for
+xs0ulLess
Yep. High enough RES and Magic will end up healing you.
+Kokiri Kid I am definitely applying that to my game; but I'm going to follow your approach and essentially surprise the players with it LOL.
"Or a character that just says 'mother' all the time" *picture of Sephiroth*
If that ain't the truth...
Nice video, got me thinking a lot on the subject and made me ponder as a writer as to how I write my characters. I just want to share how I write sex-specific characters.
For writing female characters:
1. First, determine if my story really needs a believable female character
2. Establish the role of said character in the story
3. While writing said character, ask insights from female friends, or maybe even call in a favor to get them to write that character themselves if you're that trusting.
Also, for writing male characters:
1. First, determine if my story really needs a believable male character
2. Establish the role of said character in the story
3. While writing said character, ask insights from female friends, or maybe even call in a favor to get them to write that character themselves if you're that trusting.
Overall, I feel that men will naturally have a bias as to how they wish to perceive women, whether it be a conscious bias or not, and the same would apply to how women perceive men, and there's already some research that supports this. However, I feel that in order for one to make a deep and interesting sex-specific characters (and also gender specific), one must consider how individuals of that sex perceive themselves, and how individuals from the other sex perceive them. I mean, just as much as no one knows yourself like you do, also applies to how you do not know yourself like others do.
If you want a sex-specific character to be interesting, you'll need to understand the different perspectives individuals have of the individuals of that sex. This way, the character - having been built on real-world perspectives - can feel more real and more interesting.
I will not lie though that this can over-complicate your character and that this is how I design my characters, and that others might actually have a better ways to design their own characters, but I just wanted to share is all.
Yet again, great video :D
Love it!
I feel like Lara croft has always been a great female character especially in the legend, anniversary, and underworld games. She was really cool and was very confident in herself but also can have some anger issues when it comes to her mother.
Good rule of thumb for making characters in any medium:
Unless their gender, race, sexuality, etc. Directly plays into the story (which I don't recommend, it's very hard to do well), don't start by choosing what their traits are. Make a basic character outline first before choosing their gender or sexuality.
I lost it at the "Just Saiyan"
I disagree about Samus being a great female character namely because she isn't feminine in any way (outside of Other: M). For instance if you didn't know she was female she could be assumed to be male. Hence the "big reveal" after beating the original Metroid and the fact that the instruction manual referred to Samus as a he. But your criteria is solid, explain why they conform/clash with gender roles will really make a solid character. I don't think that's mutually exclusive to women either. Challenging gender roles (in both accepting and rejecting) makes every character have more depth.
Minneamations What you consider femininity is just a societal pressure on women. It's arbitrary and it varies through time and culture.
I don't doubt that, but I suppose I don't understand how Samus Aran is feminine by Japanese standards or any other standards. From the Western view Samus has only traits we assign to the male gender binary.
I'm just saying 'femininity' is a meaningless term. You can't demand someone to be feminine since it's an arbitrary quality.
The only type of adjective on femininity that really matters will only happen if you can get rid of culture/society standards and focus on biology.
DO NOT LOOK TO THE COMMENT SECTION DO NOT LOOK TO THE COMMENT SECTION DO NOT LOOK TO THE COMMENT SECTION
That's pretty much true for EVERY UA-cam video >.
Have I already fucked up?
Do I have to watch the video again but without looking at the comment section this time?
I'm a little confused right now.
Wow this video is great, I really think Extra Credits is aimed towards a more intelligent audience. Let's see what good points the community can ma- nope.
it is far too late,i'm already looking to it and no one can stop me
*EVIL LAUGH*
Aaron Idstein too late
I guess the way society looks at genders is what makes this difficult. Building off of stereotypes is obviously bad, but taking fully developed characters and gender-swapping them doesn't address society's pressures on them to act a certain way.
also the fact with relating to a character
I have been noticing lately that most games that have a cardboard cutout heroine in skimpy clothes like X-Blades, Onechanbara, Blades of Time and a few others have been selling very poorly. Hopefully this would give developers the impression that sex doesn't sell anymore and give them an incentive to give actual depth to their characters, male and female alike.
I don't have an issue with seeing a brave, stubborn heroine taking on a male villain. If anything, I welcome it. To me, it shows that an action girl's badassery isn't limited to designated girl fights and it solidifies them as absolute badasses. And if you still want a designated girl fight, well, Nariko fought Whiptail, so I hope that gave you your fix.
Neil Gaskin No. She doesn't. So please, stop nitpicking.
Neil Gaskin Wow. You ''are'' nitpicking. Yes, a discussion like this should end here. Okay, can I hear someone rational responding to my comments this time?
Neil Gaskin I'm not an internet troll. I'm being reasonable and fair. If anybody's the troll, it's probably you. Stop it. Give it a rest already.
The walking dead series did a pretty good job at making a good female character
So did The Last of Us.
*****
The best thing about her sexuality is that it does not define her character.Same goes for Bill in the Last of Us.
Spencer Burt Great example. I'd say they made several in fact.
Wow! Very well done. I admit I was a little nervous that you might give the typical BBC type talk of here's why women are so much better than men and the video would irritate me with PC propaganda. But no it was a much wiser discussion of gender in art than I often hear. Good stuff to think about.
No mention of Chell from Portal? I'm sad now...
sMystRyn That's the point. She's a female but there's absolutely no emphasis on it. She's just another human being who happens to be of the female sex. Isn't that what true gender equality is about - when gender just doesn't matter anymore?
I know it doesn't exactly fit the video, but I felt like (perhaps irrationally) she should have been mentioned anyways.
sMystRyn What's this? A rational, respectful, mature discussion in the comments section of UA-cam? IMPOSSIBLE!
***** Then again, Valve main characters often don't have any personality to them either. They seem to be less than characters and more of a blank slate to put yourself in.
Yeah, they do have a bit of a backstory. From what I know about it though, I don't think it really says much about who they are. Then again, I don't know everything about the characters so maybe there is something that does a bit.
Well, I guess that shows what I know about those games' stories XD
tl;dr
"If you want to create a truly great female character, you have to either be willing to brave those few issues which are truly unique to the feminine half of our species, or you have to give us a human being responding to ordinary societal pressures" (vis-a-vis females)
A good female character is a good CHARACTER not a FEMALE character. Notice the emphasis.
A good true female character: Frigga. Anyone that recognizes the name most likely knows exactly what I'm referring to.
I know she's a comic/movie character and not a video game character, but the method of fleshing out characters in all of the above is more or less the same.
I'm trying to think of my favorite female character in games and I think I'm gonna have to say Naoto Shirogane from Persona 4 because she has to overcome societal pressure that doesn't take her seriously in the work force because of her gender. However they also make a joke concerning that despite dressing like a boy she secretly has the largest bust of the main female cast. O well they can't all be winners, but as far as the context of gaming is concern she is a fantastic example of a good female character.
Matt Murray the Persona series has some of the best female characters in gaming imo
my favorite is Yukari, I could easily identify with her fear of death and uncertainty of her goals at the beggining and I enjoyed the feeling that she has my back. she also had some flaws, namely getting annoyed when you help her because she doesn't want to rely on a guy (like many real girls), but she does thank you because she acknowledges the fact you can't read her mind and only mean well (something not all girls do)
I practically fell in love with her
I am part of a team of aspiring game developers, where I am in the role of graphic design, story telling, and general game director for the projects I personally invest most of my time in. What I like to say is that these videos help me a lot with shaping the game I wish to make while also taking in account what is possible for us as young independent and relatively new game developers. I am planning to create a female protagonist and your videos have had a great impact on how I will go about it. Therefore I want to say thanks, even if you don't read this.
So, thanks, Extra Credits.
Personally, in at least 1 world setting that I'd like to design, I'd very much like to explore what a hypothetical society would be like, where gender roles are vastly different from what we, as members of a predominantly patriarchal society, are used to, when that society is made predominantly matriarchal due to sex-selective population control mechanisms that limit how many male children each family can afford to raise, but not do so for females, all while encouraging some population growth (as the Soviet Union did through tax cuts for married couples that have children). Imagine what society would be like if a "One Son Policy" (like China's One Child Policy, only applying towards male children only) is being enforced in it. (I'd imagine that polygyny would need to be legalized to reduce unrest from women fighting eachother over marrying certain men.)
Puberty for men would be a fucking nightmare.
How would it if there is a lot more wemon then men its betters their odds of getting a girlfreind
I'm guessing you haven't completed your round yet :P
In time, you'll definitely see what I mean :D
Like I said, I'd imagine that polygyny would need to be legalized in such a matriarchal society. Otherwise, the excess women would cause unrest by fighting over the limited number of men, or be forced to marry outside of their society.
If polygyny were legalized, then that'd at least mean that most of the women would be forced to share a husband instead of fighting over one. I'd imagine that life would be similar to living in a Middle Eastern harem, with the husband under an obligation to provide for each of his wives, lest they leave him for another husband. However, since the women would be dominant in a matriarchal society that allows polygyny, they would probably take on many of the gender roles that are typical of males in our predominantly patriarchal societies, such as raising money to feed their families, thus freeing up alot of responsibility from the husband, whom would probably be expected to take on the role of housewife, or househusband if you will. This would ensure that such an arrangement would be viable even for the lower classes of society.
Of course, child-bearing would still be exclusive to the women.
ShadowWolfTJC There's a hentai game based off that. Would you like me to link it?
I don't like female characters in most games because they're sexist. It's good when I finally do see a fully fleshed out female character.
This was a fantastically created episode on SUCH a sensitive topic. The concepts AND wording were impeccable. Once again, well played.
I'd like to see some muscular women. Like actual muscular physically strong women-not just some drawn on abs on a Victoria secret model.
Zarya from Overwatch. She is badass incarnate, and an almost champion weightlifter. She would've become a champion, had she decided to continue weightlifting rather than drop everything and take up arms in defense of her country. And boy did she take up arms with a gun that houses it's own black hole! She ripped it off of an AFV in the heat of battle and has held onto ever since, mind you, the gun itself is too heavy for an average soldier to wield unassisted.
That Bad BLU Spy I have an Oc who has a body like Brigitte and her girlfriend is similar to Zarya.
We have a lot of them, however they often get backlash for trying to portray "masculinity" as female empowerment.
your wish has been granted.
And everyone hates her.
Samus Aran is, canonically, quite ripped.
Clementine would've been a PERFECT character for this episode if TWD was out when this was made
That was beautifully well spoken and eloquent. Gender is a controversial and sensitive topic in gaming, but you nailed it.
There are a few horror games that scratched the surface of having a maternity-related theme. For example: 'The Park', a horror game where you play a mother trying to find her child in (you guessed it) an abandoned theme park.
But I feel that this example doesn't really give the maternity theme full credit.
The possibility of losing the child clearly frightens the mother, but the gamers themselves are scared by the other things in the game. (scary faces, jumpscares, noises, you know, horror stuff.)
If we, the gamers, aren't connected to the child like the mother which we play, we wouldn't experience the deep evolutionary fear of losing one's child. Honestly, I think that this fear could be extremely powerful, and remains largely untapped in the game industry today.
I feel like another theme that isn't explored to greatly in games is families. You mentioned that very few games have a theme of motherhood, and I'm betting there aren't many games that focus on parenthood in general. One of my favorite game series, the legend of zelda, has family almost completely absent from the plot. I don't understand why the developers would have Link's family completely absent from most games. Some people I've talked to claim that Link having parents or sibling would prevent him from going out on his adventures, but in The Windwaker, we see that Link having a sibling actually makes the plot more meaningful. Do you have any ideas for why few games do this?
"Challenging one gender norm or another" is not a recipe for creating a good female or male character, one could just say that they must have some other divergence from whatever is more usual, but regarding something unrelated to gender. There can be good characters, male or female, that don't deviate from gender norms any more than the average individual fluctuations (it's not like everyone is following laws and being "100% socially feminine" or masculine).
On the other hand, I would love to see an RPG game that plays into the idea of different gender perception in a way that is meaningful to the gameplay, but at the same time doesn't change the character itself - just the context. Stuff like exactly same dialogue lines ending in combat in only one case, bluff/intimidation differences, different arcs etc.; in general making the world presented be main difference in relation to gender chosen by the player - applying norms, not traits.
It's strange how a lot of the female playable characters we have are just there so the female players won't feel "left out", often being pink and wearing a skirt or a dress- take pretty much any game with only 1 choice of a female character out of a few, I guarantee they'll be pink, wear female clothes, both or something else commonly considered feminine. While non playable female characters have a reputation of being a plot/player driver, without any other characterisation (peach, zelda. I can't name that many, I generally don't play those kind of games, but I've seen it a lot before).how did this influence even come about? Was it back when games were first made as 'toys for boys'? Or simply because of the past belief/essence of 'man = hero, women = victim'?
Combinations. Though to the larger point with what Nintendo did and did right is they didn't make gaming as a "Toys for Boys" but as Games built on the basis of being just really great games.
As for stories that could be played, one did back when have a bit of a limited palette of sorts of what one could do and get away with doing for a start. And ironically only for it that we could get Samus Aran as the end-all hunter she and as a 'she' could be... yet still with some degree of sex appeal thrown in to make sure people stayed tuned after. Good things times change, eh? XD
But yeah, maybe as the Scales & Palette's of the Sex, Gender, Preferences, and Masculine/Feminine sorts get better fleshed out and brought into the norm of society as 'just a thing', we can hope to see more dynamic & better overall characterization for casts to include Male & Female leads overall. ^_^
ZGuy0fSci Great comment! The thing is female colours are limited to pink and purple in the games that I'm talking about, while the male colours are anything but pink and purple.
Julia Binarystar at least with Heavy Armor & Tanks, "Gender Politics" have no place nor matter. ^_<
* I'm really wanting to get back into WoT if not for the whole "WG -> Communists" thing, but at the least Armored Warfare is on its way. ^-^
You do much gaming?
Why are you criticizing it if you don't play these sort of games? Modern games in the RPG genre, especially the western ones where the story doesn't demand a specific protagonist, let you make your own character. Bioware's stuff is a good example, but the Elder Scrolls games have it, too, and progressive views on things like homosexuality (by having it a complete and utter non-issue)
Can you name any examples of games made within the last 5 years to support your claims?
Gisle Aune I was only saying that it was interesting
" pregnancy" mechanic:
toon (or class of toon)
may voluntarily; or on some non-voluntary trigger, like ambush or fight loss; or both
have an object/follower attach to them
this condition triggers a loss of a random subset of abilities (i.e. some skills get deactivated, lose levels, the toon can't jump, toon can't use some consumables, needs to heal more often, etc) -the cost is significant to the toon, and while it's possible on random chance it's not annoying, it more than likely will be a challenge to the player
this condition can be removed
But if removed, there is a social cost to the player/toon (trading costs go up, some npcs dislike the player, etc)
And the condition (pregnancy) may randomly kill or cause permanent/ temporary damage to the player.
But after a period, the condition matures (births) into a powerfully useful benefit with maintenance costs/restrictions. my thought is that it could be a companion that resurrects the player in most circumstances and provides a powerful social boost in all/many/most circumstances (babies/little kids can be incredibly charming), or the companion provides a significant motivation/healing/etc boost.
just a thought after watching the video at 3a.m. snuggling with my daughter
This has been helpful for me as an aspiring writer, thank-you.
Thinking about female characters that neither accept nor reject societal expectations. Ellie, from the last of us, comes to mind. She continuously surprises Joel with how she takes matters into her own hands, and exceeds his expectations. For example she knows her way around a gun, she knows how to pop a clutch. On the other hand, there are several instances where she seems a bit weak without Joel's help or guidance. Like the fact that she cannot swim.
I feel Ellie's true character development takes place toward the end of the game, where she sees the giraffes, and runs off, ecstatic. It shows not a survivor hardened by the fungapocalypse to become a stone cold killer, nor does it show a fearful little girl that needs Joel's help to survive. It shows, an inquisitive, slightly whimsical, girl entering adulthood; Who, if it weren't for the rise of the shroom-people, could've grown up in a happy, loving family.
In this way, we receive a TRUE female character in the fact that her character, her interests, her personality can not be completely described by words alone.
One thing this video made me realize is that we haven't had many games exploring male issues as well. Societal gender factors haven't been explored in general in games, since as he said, you can take most protagonists and gender swap them just fine without any shift in the story. At least, I thought we hadn't had a gendered game, until I remembered the recently released God of War. Kratos experiences a truly gendered issue of raising a child as a single man in a world where mothers are the default for raising children. It really made you feel the problems Kratos had, and even though I am not a father, it gave me perspective on his life. I can only hope to see the same done for women in video games, or heck, why not those who are trans or gender non-conforming or anywhere else on the gender spectrum? This same sentiment can spread to all kinds of things honestly, from race to sexuality to culture. God of War showed that you can make a compelling story based around exploring personal struggles unique to a certain demographic, and have it appeal to a wide audience. I'm sure a large amount of people who played and connected to God of War weren't single fathers, and many probably weren't male either. Give that kind of care and attention to detail to a minority group's story and you could have a powerful narrative that is both engaging and influential.
I'm viewing this video for the third or fourth time and I love the message, but it got me thinking - why should we consider 'taking care of children' as inherently feminine? Some great games explored the idea of fatherhood and of men taking care of children in desperate situations - which also means it would be nice to see women in this kind of narrative, since representation matters - and it didn't make them less masculine for it (just look at The Walking Dead by Telltale).
And all these years later we finally have Kara in Detroit:Become Human. Worth the wait.
I have to say at 2:53 what remains of Edith Finch explores the motherhood theme spectacularly well
this was amazing. I don't even play video games but this really helped me to understand some things about how women are represented by pop culture in general.
Morrowind did have seperate stats for male and female characters.
You bet it did.
mainly, males were stronger, females more agile, if i recall correctly. was also depending on race.
sc2_Nightmare sadly... the elder scrolls series as fallen way below the morrowind level...
indeed...
I want my spears back... and different pauldrons... and gauntlets... and no full-face helmets for the "animal" races... and no boots... and a robe over my armour....
man, they changed alot...
Rarely do i see such an unbiased and clear view of how social pressure molds us as human beings. The video is about video game characters, i know, but these pressures are as human as we are. And this video is FIVE YEARS OLD....
Great work guys :)
What about Chell from Portal 2? Female main character, who is intelligent and capable and the main antagonist is also "female" (even though "she's" a robot), one who likes to troll you at that. Yeah she doesn't talk, and of course negative things can be said about that however, the game is mostly silent as it is and you have few interactions as it is (hardly even a soundtrack) so I consider her a cool character that is female but it does not affect or change the plot. If I was playing a male and the enemy was male it would have changed the story. But there is no greater value in having a female character over a male character, or visa versa, rather it depends on the type of story you want to tell. That being said, I do love representation of any kind in games and I would love more well-developed (personality wise ;) female characters. Or just awesome characters in general. Games are great!
I feel Chel is one of the examples of characters where gender was irrelevant. She could've been replaced by a male and the game would've been just as fun. They proved that by replacing her with a genderless robot.
I'm actually tired of playing the stereotypical macho man in games. I'd prefer the option to choose a strong female lead, over a male.
Not sure why.
All true!
I'm hoping to see game developers in the future take into action the things you've talked about
I thought Veronica and Cass from Fallout New Vegas were really good female characters
Heck ya they were, Veronica was peppy and fun, sarcastic and loving but wonderfully retributive. She was also kinda gay, if I remember correctly. Meanwhile Cass was simple, honest, brutal and had this inner anger that just leapt off the screen, that and she fucked NCR boys without any attachment or love, cause sex was good. I enjoyed them both so much because they are not only radically different from each other but they have noticeable, concrete personalities and goals. They were real characters
***** And Veronica wanted to wear a dress, and Cass loved whiskey. Can't forget those two details.
***** And why she wanted the dress was even better. She grew up in a bunker, surrounded by religious attire and regulation. She wants a dress because it's eye catching and sexy and beautiful. All the things she thinks she lacks, and by extension, the Brotherhood lacks aswell. And your reward for getting a girl a dress, she teaches you Punching, cause in her words "Thats the gift that keeps on giving"
Cass's alcoholism was really interesting, a lot of the time I noticed how angry she was and I'd agree to help but when I found out that no amount of violence would soothe her I had a real moment. Standing in the caravan barracks, surrounded by dead guards, staring at this beast of a woman. I realized, I felt sorry for her.
I really fucking enjoyed New Vegas, I don't care what Extra Credits say about Fallout: NV.
I personally think Lee from the walking dead is the closest thing to a mother figure in games ...
Fathers can't protect their little girls? Can't teach them how to protect themselves? What the fuck, man.
If anything, a great mother figure would be The Boss from MGS3.
I think you're the one who's confused.
*insert undertale goat mum joke*
Oh, right! Can't think of a better mother figure than Toriel.
Luís Matheus Ana from Overwatch
Yeah, I've loved Reimu Hakurei back as a kid and she's definitely a strong female character. Plus she has her own dialogues for storytelling unlike Mario. Touhou was my childhood after all.
"A society where women wear black and shoot first."
_...Black Lagoon?_
Game where you play as a mother: shelter, you play as an animal protecting and feeding her cubs.