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Ann Betz and Fruit of the Poisonous Tree
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- Опубліковано 8 лип 2024
- An applied neuroscientist with a sub-speciality in trauma, Ann connected to share some of her perspective on life after landmark. The topics she's raising are well worth opening the channel to explore at a deeper level.
Today, the beginning we touch on a few of those topics to give you a sense of how conversations with Ann could develop.
What I'm particularly interested in are the forks that have taken the 'guts' of EST/Landmark Education, Corporation "worldwide" and spread like tentacles around the world. And, we hardly touched on that in this, our first podcast.
First we found some common ground in the good ol' days.. because some things never change in this tiny little world of transformation!
Such a rich conversation. I recognized myself here, especially since I started in the NY center at 17 years old in 1977, grew up in a chaotic family, and also assisted in logistics on the weekends while I attended college. I did the training, started assisting 2 days later, and didn't stop for about 17 years. It was in Anne Peterson's Wisdom course at 40, that I figured out I used est/Landmark as surrogate parents as I sorely lacked the training I needed to function in so many ways as an adult. I'm grateful for that training, yet it certainly came couched in the "ickies." I love the golden age of healing from cults and narcissists. I became a mental health therapist with that aim in mind, and these conversations lately are helping my own healing I forgot I needed to do as I face this cognitive dissonance. Thank you, thank you, thank you.
So good … bringing back so many memories. Important note … we need to keep talking about weaponized empathy. Hard to believe but more and more understanding that our empathy was used for others financial gain.
I'm a lawyer - great job on the fruit of the poisonous tree! I agree that my transformation was not worth one second of the pain or price that someone paid for me to get that.
over communicating; this is powerful because it is also an integrity issue to not communicate, so if you don't it feels deeply like i am lying or hiding something. This really had a negative impact on my dating life especially.
I'm so sorry and I relate. Over communicating in the workplace has had me be the strange one. The very things that had me be a "rock star" in the enterprise have been anything but in the real world.
omg already playing my song also. as part of my waking up to all of the Landmark and werner reality , the reality of being trained at 19 for 10 yrs pretty much and what that has done to a developing brain and how that set up my life for 30 yrs is the hardest part of all this to accept. and understand. thats where my current work lies. i know a lot about developmental neurobiology but she is an expert so confirmation!
not easy but thankyou❤️
This is so great! I love this interview!
I’m absolutely LOVED this conversation!! I think this question regarding is my privilege or value worth the suffering of another is a question whose time has come. AND like it or not we will all again and again being given the opportunity to choose. I personally am with Ann … others suffering and abuse even ONE is worth my value.
We can learn to seek safely!!
I have found Harry to be a kind man - I have seen some exceptions - note: the company was sold to the employees - when I was in NY and wanted to go back to college at age 21 i was told "why do you want your college, after being on staff you can teach college". I followed that advice - 26 years later I will be in college here in Minneapolis where I am from too.
I think if I had been told that I would have stayed as well.....
Great conversation. I'm re-learning a lot of the terms and now, how they've changed. I wonder sometimes about being "authentic" which always has this apologetic tone to it. Sometimes I think being authentic can be realising that the person is, in fact, an asshole. I got "complete" with a former employer who framed me to fire me, because he didn't like me. Took him off guard, but really - he was a narcissitic asshole. Looking forward to more talks. Thanks Ann and Dale!
“bums on seats”!! i was told over and over .🙄
@41:34 "A World That Works For Everyone, With No One Left Out."
It seemed to me that the "...No One Left Out," part depended on people smiling and clapping and declaring that it worked for them, even when they were dying on the inside. It seemed to require "toxic positivity." As examples; mentioned just a minute before that, was the guy marrying the woman he hated. Or taking a job one hates, or having to "settle," in any number of areas, and these things happen, but then we were told that we couln't be resigned, but must pretend as if we relish it. To behave as if it was working for us, required a great deal of pretense, and ZERO authenticity.
To me, that's a very low bar, for "A World That Works For Everybody..."
Thanks Dale and Ann. I can already tell this is going to be a great interview!
It feels like Landmark is fading fast.
agreed Rick. They simply can not control people outside of a control room
SCARF status certainty autonomy relatedness fairness - I got it from a book called Your brain at work.
Those are all things that if threatened will trigger people.
I struggle I don’t understand the patriarchy thing. Maybe I don’t hear it in my circle or maybe Australians don’t really think/talk about
Your conversation here is informative but your comments regarding the Hunger Project bothered me. The card you signed was a way to take an individual stand for ending hunger, what Werner's motives were I can't say...but the organization has a 100% percent rating through Charity Navigator
thanks Ellie for taking the time to comment. Ann is talking about when she was involved at the beginnings of the organisation. These were/are her concerns. Are you talking about the organisation NOW?
Many things change over time.
@@LifeAfterLandmark Thank you for acknowledging my response, it means a lot to me.
Actually I started participating with the Hunger Project right around the same time Ann did.
I did the est training in 1977 and I did go to Madison Square Garden at one of the first gatherings. I remember signing that card and that experience was very powerful for me. Just as the standing for your own life by enrolling in the training, here was an opportunity to take an individual stand for Ending Hunger as an idea whose time had come. I continued to participate for decades and have seen the evolution of the Hunger Project. I've know staff members personally at the Hunger Project. I was inspired by Joan Holmes as one of the first to acknowledge that ending hunger was tied to Women's Empowerment. Lynne Twist worked for the Hunger Project for many years and now leads the Pachamama Alliance in partnership with indigenous tribes in the Amazon to create a just and sustainable planet .
The Hunger Project's mission has always been to facilitate individual and collective action to transform the systems of inequity that create hunger and cause it to persist. From Charity Navigator :" Founded in 1977, The Hunger Project is a global, strategic organization committed to the sustainable end of world hunger. In Africa, Asia and Latin America, The Hunger Project empowers people to lead lives of self-reliance, meet their own basic needs and build better futures for their children. The Hunger Project carries out its mission through three essential activities: mobilizing village clusters at the grassroots level to build self-reliance, empowering women as key change agents, and forging effective partnerships with local government".
I read "Outrageous Betrayal", and some of the remarks about Werner's involvement with the Hunger Project and his motivations definitely upset me...and I am examining my years of participation with Landmark with new eyes and ears. I appreciate your interviews and have watched them, read Ann's book, and am educating myself. I'm your partner in determining how best to proceed with our own individual transformation by seeking safely. Thanks again for your listening and your courage to seek the truth.
@@LifeAfterLandmark Thank you, Dale, for your response. I completed the est training in1977 and attended the Madison Square Garden event with Werner, much like Ann did. Signing that card was empowering for me as it symbolized a commitment to ending hunger.
While Werner's intentions at the time are subject to scrutiny, I have been involved with the Hunger Project for decades. Unlike typical charitable organizations, The Hunger Project's mission is to empower people towards self- reliance. It focuses on identifying gaps and developing strategies that empower people at the grassroots level.
@@ellie7261-e4q ok, thank you for clarifying. I'll bring it up with Ann in our next conversation on Wednesday to dive further into her thinking.
Hi Ellie, I have also heard HP is doing good things now, so yay! I am reflecting on my experience in 1982 (which was very early on) as well as the good reporting of Steven Pressman in Outrageous Betrayal. There is a chapter in that book on the HP that talks about the early days and founding. What is hopeful is the example that organizations CAN change.