Fantastic video! I've been a tile installer for nearly 20 years and made the same argument with Issac on his "schluter stress test video!" Very concise explanation on your part, keep up the good work! You have a new subscriber!
Great Video!! The contractor your referring to has been so inconsistant with his methods of installation of water proofing membrane and systems. And he calls himself the Tile Coach!!! You tube viewers just want solid facts and be able to follow good sound practice!! I appreciate you calling this one out!! Its really about time someone did so.
Thank you for this video, I had watched some of Isaac’s videos on his failures. I had just done a large shower using some of these products. His videos made me want to tear down my shower and redo it. But I specifically followed manufacturer instructions on each product. So after looking at your video I have a more secure feeling about my application and construction of my shower.
Very well thought out analysis. How a test is conducted and the conclusions drawn are not always what seems obvious. Careful observation has lead you to alternate reasons for the failures seen in the test.
I've watched 1000's of videos before starting my own DIY shower. This is by far the best! I subbed, liked and now going back to watch more of your videos!
Thanks, this makes me feel better. My main issue with Isaac had been his testing protocols. I know you can't just do one box and make any kind of intelligent decision on success and failure. At least 3 for an unprofessional test, probably 10 for a more robust experiment.
Very well presented. A common theme in all the testing done by various UA-camrs is a complete lack of understanding about how to properly conduct an experiment - using a control, isolating variables, etc. Regardless of their good intentions, poorly designed experiments do not prove anything. Add in a little bit of ego where "response" videos attempt to show up a rival and/or defend a favored product or technique and it really becomes a big mess. Pity that the promised waterproofing videos don't seem to have ever been made.
I have to agree with you. I am a 25 year 2nd generation tile setter myself. Schluter has been our choice of systems from day 1. I remember as a helper Ditra used to only have ribs much like the inside of a cardboard box. It was a hard sell back then. Today it sells itself!
With your long experience with Ditra and my humble 5 year experience, I would be honoured if you could answer a quick question. I want to install Ditra as an uncoupling membrane and vapor barrier in the basement (1200 sq ft). In case of a flood via sump pump failure, would Ditra have to be removed during the flood remediation process?
@@samml3836 I'm not in the insurance business. So I can't say for certain. However I don't see why a tile floor would need to ever be removed if installed over Ditra on concrete.
I am a retired elevator mechanic. Jack of all trades. I have been building and remodeling homes and things since i was 12. Redone about 30 or more bathrooms for myself and friends. Shower and bath tile failures were present in every one ihave ever done. Perfection is a goal and in the real world seldom done or seen. Issac's test are probally more realistic of the average shower tile job done. The problem with houses is they are always moving and bonds are often compromised. The brick facade on my home had no cracks until the first 5.7 earthquake after 20 years. Now it has a few cracks. The schluter membrane and design looks to be pretty good for its intended use. Not applying it in a cascading application? Does not seem logical to me. Applying a liguid membrane is really just an insurance peace of mind thing. Issac is a craftsman looking to improve things in his industry. I would not hesitate to hire him or sal.
You're not wrong about why Isaac's videos are flawed, but a localized failure and a complete system failure are exactly the same in practice -- rotted substrates and a premature tear-out. So my takeaway from Isaac's videos are simply that there is zero margin for error, of any kind, in these products. Too wet, too dry, too thick, too thin, too much pressure, too little pressure, too little mixing, too long before setting or too short between coats... you get leaks at least some of the time. Also I don't think anyone is saying manufacturers won't stand by their warranty. That could get them in legal trouble. Instead the manufacturers VERY CLEARLY specify that their warranty only covers their product and no "incidental" damages. So if their products fail, and do $50,000 in damage to your client's house, you get a free roll of membrane. That isn't debatable because they put it in clear writing. I suppose you could imagine they might pay you extra to keep you quiet about a product failure, but they certainly don't have to.
Noble makes a sheet membrane similar to Kerdi, but sheets are connected with waterproof adhesive instead of thinset. If it's my house, that's what I would use.
Very good video. Good breakdown of why Isaacs tests always seem to show the manufacturers systems failing. Interested to see you testing the same systems and seeing if they perform or fail.
@@thebuilditchannel8609 I've just watched the 50 day test video and it's surprising to see how well the schluter system performed after having watched Isaacs videos. Correct me if I'm wrong but the schluter isn't designed to hold water as in the test, yet it does so successfully. Your videos have been a real eye opener and I'm re-evaluating my opinions of these systems. It was a good point to mention about the training from the manufacturers. I'm busy watching your woodworking videos now. Good shout out to sal for linking your channel - and what a great tiler he is.
I just DIY my shower with Schluter (I even bought their trowels, thinset and their profiles). All my doubts about the system is gone after watching this video.
This was very well thought out and conducted. I do watch the other channel and was concluding that nothing is waterproof. you have proven otherwise. For him to admit that he did not follow the manufacturer instructions or that it isn't that important to mix correctly, shows a lack of professionalism on his part. I did call him out on the RedGard test, it was a joke. Thank you for your properly performed test. subscribed
Try GoBoard by Johns Manville. It is a higher compression waterproof foam with a rigid face, lightweight and cheaper then Kerdi Board or Wedi. They use a sealant like Wedi so no thin set on banding. Also they are coming out with GoBoard Pro.
I think people forget it's a shower and it will never be full of water for 7 days, the entire system is designed around this, showers get wet and then dry out it's not a bathtub ...
I take out approximately 5-6 Schluter systems that have been improperly installed with in 5 years of installation. I have been a Maryland Licensed Contractor for 34 years, and have only been doing bathrooms for the last 25 years. I will not use Schluter period, for that reason. I have also never had a bathroom shower or tub leak or fail. The only way I would use the Schluter system is with at least 3 coats of Redguard up 24 inches and with 24 hours between coats. Just my personal thoughts. I not trying to knock or put down anyone who uses the Schluter system either.
???? I don't understand...your point seems to be: the installation was done incorrectly (didn't follow manufacturers instructions?) therefore, the product (Schluter) is unreliable. If the job had been done correctly, the system would've worked just fine. just sayin'.......
@@davidowens5898 David for all I know, since I'm not a Schluter installer, they 1/2 of them could have been installed correctly also. I have seen a you tube video where the guy did it to the "t" with the instructions, and then did the 24 hour water test and it failed. I shouldn't have said improperly, since I'm not a qualified Schulter installer. You bring up a valid point sir. What i do know is that the showers leaked.
Cardboard has perfect bound with thinset of any grade unlike to plywood. You can compare it by trying to pry tile out drywall or plywood, which one will come cleaner is obvious. Anyway Schluter should come up with recommendation to apply their Kerdi fix along seams at pan level for reassurance, while redguard should remove trowel as applicable tool for membrane application leaving it to roller and brush. Consumers will be happy and will gladly follow manufacture recommendations not crafting dog houses on their own.
I panicked after watching his video. After watching your video, I calmed down and calmly prepare for the next step. Thank you very much. I still have doubts about Schluter's waterproofing system, as Schluter Kerdi Coll-L is not available in the US. I don't care about the warranty. Even if we fail to install them according to their installation instructions anyway, it's going to be a thorny fight because it's hard for us to prove we did it right. Their warranties are nothing more than a fishing bait to sell their merchandise more easily. I'm working on a Kerdi board, Kerdi tray, and using Schluter modified thinset. I'm thinking of the double waterproofing with 2-3 thin coats, but I'm having trouble deciding which one to choose between Mapei and Hydroban or 8+9. Which one do you think works best with a Schluter modified thinset?
Thanks!! Glad it helped!! The thinset isn’t the issue when adding a topical waterproofing. Whether the material will bond with the liner is more of the concern. Hydroban and Ardex 8+9 are both good products.
I've heard some installers would skim coat kerdi sheet membrane with a thinset, let it completely dry, and then apply RedGuard or other liquid applied membranes on top of it. The idea is that thinset is an approved product to use on kerdi membrane, and liquid applied is an approved product to be used on thinset. Is it an overkill? Sure, but this sequence of application of these products doesn't seem to contradict any of the manufacturers recommendations.
If you rely on the "right thinset consistency" that means you'll never know if your shower will leak. A flood test would be a must. Isaac has tested ardex 8+9 like 3 times and the first 2 times it passed with flying colors and his last test it failed which it tells me he did something wrong in his last test. A pan liner is the most reliable waterproofing, it has no seams and it's made of a tough material. People just don't like doing preslopes which is why kerdi is getting popular. Also some people don't know how to avoid a bump out at the bottom. Kerdi seems easier to most installers.
@@thebuilditchannel8609 You said his test failed because the thinset was too wet, not the right consistency. Schluter says to mix the thinset to a loose consistency. So if it leaks people will automatically claim the thinset was too loose or too dry bla bla bla....It means this system is not reliable if you have to a achieve a perfect thinset consistency that nobody really know what that is and thinset is porous, it will suck up water regardless of how loose or stiff you applied your thinset. There will always be a ? Mark. A flood test is the only way to know if it worked unlike a pan liner that i know will never leak because it has no seams and i don't have to rely on the right thinset consistency bs....
@@thebuilditchannel8609 why would water to cement ratio matter for waterproofing if thinset is not waterproof?? Even schluter says to mix it to a loose consistency.....They don't tell you measure the water and the thinset with a measuring cup.
will inthearea they do have a recommendation on how much water to add, look at the back of a bag of any one of Schluters thinset, it has a low and high range of water to add depending on the application you are using. More water when using for prep, mid range amount for tile Install and low range if you want non-sag.... in fact every manufacturer has a recommended water amount to per bag
@@Random1234-j8d Fair enough....Still doesn't explain why it would matter for waterproofing since thinset is not waterproof and will absorb water. Kerdi is a water management system that will work in a residential shower, water out system only. However, kerdi is not 100% waterproof...... If you use kerdi to waterproof a swimming pool, i guarantee it will fail. There's a lot of room for failure when you rely on thinset to waterproof a shower.
New subscriber here! Great video and the one with the Schluter test base also! I’m heading into a diy bathroom myself and have a question. Can schluter and redgard work together? I’ve got a schluter shower pan and curb system, but will be using redgard on the walls and I’m feeling nervy about the details.
Good analysis of the problems with TileCoach's 7 day flood test. I like the guy, but I wouldn't call that an ideal installation. I think the explanation for the 'failure' was right before our eyes--and his---at the beginning of the video. Watch the first minute of that video again where they're removing water from the pan. They are clearly splashing water into and over the sides of the tray, and that's just the one corner that is visible. We also don't see if any splashing occurred when he initially filled the tray. He even warns them to take it easy due to the splashing. The other possibility would be a pinhole caused by his drywall knife, and that problem would be minimized once the floor is tiled and thinset is pushed into all of the corners. Here's a link to the part of the video where the water is splashing around: ua-cam.com/video/jMGotWT4NOc/v-deo.htmlsi=qsMWSsAQ0lzMs7HE&t=26
could you test red guard over kerdi board, I want to see if red guard will be water proof the seams of kerdi board for a flood test. Also could you test Laticrete Hydro Ban adhesive/sealant for the seams over kerdi board. Laticrete claims their adhesive/sealant is sufficient for seams for their boards, I assume it would work for kerdi board as well. The technician I spoke to said to have at least a 1/8 in to 1/2 in wide coverage over the seams to be water proof, and wait 2 hours for a flood test
Right, we know that the manufacturers won't stand by such an installation. I don't see why they might wish to, seeing as how that would be counter-productive to their competitive interests. What the initial commenter wants to know, and I do as well, is whether either of the two systems would be better in terms of functionality. We don't really care about warranties. If a product fails, no warranty is going to fix it. We just want to see some objective testing of the dual-product testing so that we, the user community, can be guided toward the best approach to get the job done.@@thebuilditchannel8609
Here's here I'm getting lost...having watched several of these videos that demonstrate the 'proper' and 'incorrect' methods of Schluter Shower system installation with regard to wicking, leakage, spotting, etc...I have a question: if the system is correctly installed and THEN TILED AND GROUTED (also correctly), how can there be any kind of leaks? Isn't the entire point of tiling & grouting a shower stall & pan designed to PREVENT any kind of leaks? What am I missing here? Where would the 'leaks' come from?
Tile and grout do not create a waterproof system by themselves. Schluter or any product meant for waterproofing installed incorrectly will cause problems.
@@richardtemby4358 Waterproofing membranes, sealers are a completely different product. There is thinset behind the membranes which will rapidly absorb water and change color making a leak very easy to detect.
He's just being "difficult" re. the sealers terminology. Have to get beyond that. Basically, thebuildchannel8609, what we are asking about is whether the Redgard or Ardex 8+9 are EFFECTIVE for the intended purpose, which is to enhance or improve the water repellency imparted by the Schluter system. Can you objectively answer that without delving into semantics?@@richardtemby4358
I just installed a kerdi system and it passed a flood test, but I do see alot of wicking. I am looking for extra assurance. I tested hydro barrier on hardi backer and it doesn't bond well, most of it peels off even after wiping off dust and dampening. Would you say ardex adheres well to hardi backer?
While that may not be your intended point, it was focused solely on one persons test / videos. I believe right is right and wrong is wrong. If you can’t do a video specifically about StarrTile then maybe you can potentially do one on 2 of his methods or lack there of. 1. He is telling viewers that thinset should not be used under backerboard on floor installation and 2. Preslope is not required when doing a traditional rubber shower pan liner shower pan. I know the answer but I know several people who have been confused due to his videos.
As a second generation flooring and tile guy, there is a war going on in our industry. With many fronts and battles. New vs old tech, knowledge and improvement in knowledge vs “this is the way my daddy did it. “ materials are changing rapidly and tools that go along with these changes. Tile and showers are larger more complex animals. People don’t understand products, or tools if they can’t do it on the first try they are done. I used similar things to red guard in the 90s before the big push on water proofing. I thank god in 2002 that I started using kerdi. Red guards problem was the mesh in the corners and the bloody 5 to 6 coats I used to apply to get the mill right. With drying in between could be 2 days and wreaked clothes. 😂 I don’t see anyone applying a paint on correctly. Someone should make a correct video.
I do nothing but kerdi board and ditra any more. Even with doing lots of these types of showers, there are always issues. I don’t know how I feel about people saying it’s “do it yourself friendly.” I’ve seen and heard pros mess up on Shulter. You really have to be a person that pays attention to details for any shower water proofing to work.
@@tileslay6543 if issue with sluther sistem because amature instalation look like easy watch video but peoples are not pro then licking hire pro so no mistake you will save $$ DIY best way to cry after its done if you d ont have clue as tilesetter better call pro
1st of all Your not building a swimming pool. 2nd If you want real world results then you would build a wall, splash water on it for an hour at the most like you were actually showering, then you would shut off the water then repeat for a week then tear apart your project and see if you have water leaks. Its unrealistic to build a redgard, kerdi or whatever you wanna call the stuff swimming pool and say it failed because nobody showers in a swimming pool. These tests everyone does is like taking a new engine and holding it under water for a week and seeing if there is water in the oil when it comes back up. Yep no crap there will be water in the engine. But if you just hose off the engine to clean it is there water in the engine. Nope. Its done its job. All of you guys are on the wrong path. Its like monkey see monkey do.
Most pans I make I out of kerdi. Holds water for a week or 2 weeks at a time waiting for inspection. No leaks what so ever. When you understand the science it makes sense. It’s all about capillary size and water molecules being to big to travel through the capillaries sandwiched between the fabric.
@@Random1234-j8d maybe I wrote it different. All I am saying is a shower is a momentary spray of water running down a wall and across the floor. The swimming pool comment was based on that, not a leak test. Not saying anyone is doing it wrong. Kerdi is just a choice. It is not the only was to waterproof. Thats all
Guess he changed his mind on making any more videos at all. Stands to reason....no subscribers really and few views. As good as he seems to be at stuff, making good, attention-getting thumbnails and titles don't seem to be in his repertoire.
@@thebuilditchannel8609 true statement. I found out that it’s difficult for first timer to work with Kerdi especially around the corners and decided to apply 8+ 9 on top of kerdi
@@thebuilditchannel8609 because it's a tiny mock up. In the field you have odd corners and larger area. Larger area = you get tired and make tiny mistakes. They are counting on you making a mistake to deny any kind of warranty claim
@@thebuilditchannel8609 the point is that these companies aren't charities. They're not going to pay to rebuild a shower if it fails. They will find a reason to deny it .
That is the whole point Apex, correct procedure equals successfull installations, if youre not gonna follow "every single step", then dont do the job, that goes for every sysyem out there.
REAL LIFE: an installer will be: in too much of a hurry or drunk or hungover or sick with the flu or high on opioids or suffering from his chemotherapy meds or too preoccupied with his twitter feed or too preoccupied with his drawn-out-divorce or angry and pissed off at the client or angry and pissed off with his boss or too cheap or absent-minded or somewhat unskilled or sleep deprived because of his new baby or .......... You get the picture. There are no perfect installers, no prefect pros, no perfect contractors, no perfect handymen, no perfect Craig's List guys, no perfect UA-cam video guys. The more complicated a system is, the more prone it is to failure. That is a fact. From these 3 products, the least prone to failure caused by the installer is RedGard followed by Ardex 8+9 followed by the very complicated Schluter. No one likes call-backs.
Fantastic video! I've been a tile installer for nearly 20 years and made the same argument with Issac on his "schluter stress test video!" Very concise explanation on your part, keep up the good work! You have a new subscriber!
Great Video!! The contractor your referring to has been so inconsistant with his methods of installation of water proofing membrane and systems. And he calls himself the Tile Coach!!! You tube viewers just want solid facts and be able to follow good sound practice!! I appreciate you calling this one out!! Its really about time someone did so.
Thank you for this video, I had watched some of Isaac’s videos on his failures. I had just done a large shower using some of these products. His videos made me want to tear down my shower and redo it. But I specifically followed manufacturer instructions on each product. So after looking at your video I have a more secure feeling about my application and construction of my shower.
Nice! Thanks for watching! Those products all work and you are right correct installation is necessary with all products.
Very well thought out analysis. How a test is conducted and the conclusions drawn are not always what seems obvious. Careful observation has lead you to alternate reasons for the failures seen in the test.
@@thebuilditchannel8609 By the way, I just shared your video on my community tab, hope it will help get you some exposure.
@@thebuilditchannel8609 👍
Thinset still wicks moisture
Fuck all these methods. Preslope, panliner, and protection of the weep holes is the real way to do a Showerpan. All you idiots suck!
carlos espinoza lol my comment was a little more subtle but yours works too!
I've watched 1000's of videos before starting my own DIY shower. This is by far the best!
I subbed, liked and now going back to watch more of your videos!
Thank you! I appreciate it, good luck with all your projects!!😁
Thanks, this makes me feel better. My main issue with Isaac had been his testing protocols. I know you can't just do one box and make any kind of intelligent decision on success and failure. At least 3 for an unprofessional test, probably 10 for a more robust experiment.
Very well presented. A common theme in all the testing done by various UA-camrs is a complete lack of understanding about how to properly conduct an experiment - using a control, isolating variables, etc. Regardless of their good intentions, poorly designed experiments do not prove anything. Add in a little bit of ego where "response" videos attempt to show up a rival and/or defend a favored product or technique and it really becomes a big mess. Pity that the promised waterproofing videos don't seem to have ever been made.
Ive used red guard and its amazing stuff. Looks more simple than kerdi too
Outstanding job well done and your professionalism of matter and how you handled it speaks volumes.
I have to agree with you. I am a 25 year 2nd generation tile setter myself. Schluter has been our choice of systems from day 1. I remember as a helper Ditra used to only have ribs much like the inside of a cardboard box. It was a hard sell back then. Today it sells itself!
With your long experience with Ditra and my humble 5 year experience, I would be honoured if you could answer a quick question. I want to install Ditra as an uncoupling membrane and vapor barrier in the basement (1200 sq ft). In case of a flood via sump pump failure, would Ditra have to be removed during the flood remediation process?
@@samml3836 I'm not in the insurance business. So I can't say for certain. However I don't see why a tile floor would need to ever be removed if installed over Ditra on concrete.
I am a retired elevator mechanic. Jack of all trades. I have been building and remodeling homes and things since i was 12. Redone about 30 or more bathrooms for myself and friends. Shower and bath tile failures were present in every one ihave ever done. Perfection is a goal and in the real world seldom done or seen. Issac's test are probally more realistic of the average shower tile job done. The problem with houses is they are always moving and bonds are often compromised. The brick facade on my home had no cracks until the first 5.7 earthquake after 20 years. Now it has a few cracks. The schluter membrane and design looks to be pretty good for its intended use. Not applying it in a cascading application? Does not seem logical to me. Applying a liguid membrane is really just an insurance peace of mind thing. Issac is a craftsman looking to improve things in his industry. I would not hesitate to hire him or sal.
Stunning clear explanation, thank you for taking the time to educate us
Thank You!! Glad you liked it!!😁
Red guard the cheaper n fast way to do it never fail
Redguard on wwhat?
You're not wrong about why Isaac's videos are flawed, but a localized failure and a complete system failure are exactly the same in practice -- rotted substrates and a premature tear-out. So my takeaway from Isaac's videos are simply that there is zero margin for error, of any kind, in these products. Too wet, too dry, too thick, too thin, too much pressure, too little pressure, too little mixing, too long before setting or too short between coats... you get leaks at least some of the time. Also I don't think anyone is saying manufacturers won't stand by their warranty. That could get them in legal trouble. Instead the manufacturers VERY CLEARLY specify that their warranty only covers their product and no "incidental" damages. So if their products fail, and do $50,000 in damage to your client's house, you get a free roll of membrane. That isn't debatable because they put it in clear writing. I suppose you could imagine they might pay you extra to keep you quiet about a product failure, but they certainly don't have to.
Noble makes a sheet membrane similar to Kerdi, but sheets are connected with waterproof adhesive instead of thinset. If it's my house, that's what I would use.
Very good video. Good breakdown of why Isaacs tests always seem to show the manufacturers systems failing. Interested to see you testing the same systems and seeing if they perform or fail.
@@thebuilditchannel8609 I've just watched the 50 day test video and it's surprising to see how well the schluter system performed after having watched Isaacs videos. Correct me if I'm wrong but the schluter isn't designed to hold water as in the test, yet it does so successfully. Your videos have been a real eye opener and I'm re-evaluating my opinions of these systems. It was a good point to mention about the training from the manufacturers. I'm busy watching your woodworking videos now. Good shout out to sal for linking your channel - and what a great tiler he is.
I just DIY my shower with Schluter (I even bought their trowels, thinset and their profiles). All my doubts about the system is gone after watching this video.
@@thebuilditchannel8609 it's just way overpriced for foam and plastic
USG system was very nice and more reasonable priced but not available anymore
This was very well thought out and conducted. I do watch the other channel and was concluding that nothing is waterproof. you have proven otherwise. For him to admit that he did not follow the manufacturer instructions or that it isn't that important to mix correctly, shows a lack of professionalism on his part. I did call him out on the RedGard test, it was a joke. Thank you for your properly performed test. subscribed
Try GoBoard by Johns Manville. It is a higher compression waterproof foam with a rigid face, lightweight and cheaper then Kerdi Board or Wedi. They use a sealant like Wedi so no thin set on banding. Also they are coming out with GoBoard Pro.
is go board used as drywall or its substitute for cement board?
@@shenoyglobal - GoBoard is a replacement for Cement boards. Tile or stone application
Well done video.Your call Issac out! Lol I appreciate the time and level you take to make these in detail type videos!
Not only called him out, but shit all over him 😣.
I think people forget it's a shower and it will never be full of water for 7 days, the entire system is designed around this, showers get wet and then dry out it's not a bathtub ...
A family of 6(!) showering daily, is going to keep things pretty moist in that particular shower. just sayin'.........
Absolutely correct
I take out approximately 5-6 Schluter systems that have been improperly installed with in 5 years of installation. I have been a Maryland Licensed Contractor for 34 years, and have only been doing bathrooms for the last 25 years. I will not use Schluter period, for that reason. I have also never had a bathroom shower or tub leak or fail. The only way I would use the Schluter system is with at least 3 coats of Redguard up 24 inches and with 24 hours between coats. Just my personal thoughts. I not trying to knock or put down anyone who uses the Schluter system either.
???? I don't understand...your point seems to be: the installation was done incorrectly (didn't follow manufacturers instructions?) therefore, the product (Schluter) is unreliable. If the job had been done correctly, the system would've worked just fine. just sayin'.......
@@davidowens5898 David for all I know, since I'm not a Schluter installer, they 1/2 of them could have been installed correctly also. I have seen a you tube video where the guy did it to the "t" with the instructions, and then did the 24 hour water test and it failed. I shouldn't have said improperly, since I'm not a qualified Schulter installer. You bring up a valid point sir. What i do know is that the showers leaked.
Nice. Well stated
Thank you for doing this video!!!!!
Cardboard has perfect bound with thinset of any grade unlike to plywood. You can compare it by trying to pry tile out drywall or plywood, which one will come cleaner is obvious. Anyway Schluter should come up with recommendation to apply their Kerdi fix along seams at pan level for reassurance, while redguard should remove trowel as applicable tool for membrane application leaving it to roller and brush. Consumers will be happy and will gladly follow manufacture recommendations not crafting dog houses on their own.
The substrate has nothing to do with the waterproofing of the system.
I panicked after watching his video. After watching your video, I calmed down and calmly prepare for the next step.
Thank you very much.
I still have doubts about Schluter's waterproofing system, as Schluter Kerdi Coll-L is not available in the US.
I don't care about the warranty. Even if we fail to install them according to their installation instructions anyway, it's going to be a thorny fight because it's hard for us to prove we did it right.
Their warranties are nothing more than a fishing bait to sell their merchandise more easily.
I'm working on a Kerdi board, Kerdi tray, and using Schluter modified thinset.
I'm thinking of the double waterproofing with 2-3 thin coats, but I'm having trouble deciding which one to choose between Mapei and Hydroban or 8+9.
Which one do you think works best with a Schluter modified thinset?
Thanks!! Glad it helped!! The thinset isn’t the issue when adding a topical waterproofing. Whether the material will bond with the liner is more of the concern. Hydroban and Ardex 8+9 are both good products.
@@thebuilditchannel8609 Thank you so much.
I've heard some installers would skim coat kerdi sheet membrane with a thinset, let it completely dry, and then apply RedGuard or other liquid applied membranes on top of it. The idea is that thinset is an approved product to use on kerdi membrane, and liquid applied is an approved product to be used on thinset. Is it an overkill? Sure, but this sequence of application of these products doesn't seem to contradict any of the manufacturers recommendations.
If you rely on the "right thinset consistency" that means you'll never know if your shower will leak. A flood test would be a must. Isaac has tested ardex 8+9 like 3 times and the first 2 times it passed with flying colors and his last test it failed which it tells me he did something wrong in his last test. A pan liner is the most reliable waterproofing, it has no seams and it's made of a tough material. People just don't like doing preslopes which is why kerdi is getting popular. Also some people don't know how to avoid a bump out at the bottom. Kerdi seems easier to most installers.
@@thebuilditchannel8609 You said his test failed because the thinset was too wet, not the right consistency. Schluter says to mix the thinset to a loose consistency. So if it leaks people will automatically claim the thinset was too loose or too dry bla bla bla....It means this system is not reliable if you have to a achieve a perfect thinset consistency that nobody really know what that is and thinset is porous, it will suck up water regardless of how loose or stiff you applied your thinset. There will always be a ? Mark. A flood test is the only way to know if it worked unlike a pan liner that i know will never leak because it has no seams and i don't have to rely on the right thinset consistency bs....
@@thebuilditchannel8609 why would water to cement ratio matter for waterproofing if thinset is not waterproof?? Even schluter says to mix it to a loose consistency.....They don't tell you measure the water and the thinset with a measuring cup.
will inthearea they do have a recommendation on how much water to add, look at the back of a bag of any one of Schluters thinset, it has a low and high range of water to add depending on the application you are using. More water when using for prep, mid range amount for tile Install and low range if you want non-sag.... in fact every manufacturer has a recommended water amount to per bag
@@Random1234-j8d exactly.....
@@Random1234-j8d Fair enough....Still doesn't explain why it would matter for waterproofing since thinset is not waterproof and will absorb water. Kerdi is a water management system that will work in a residential shower, water out system only. However, kerdi is not 100% waterproof...... If you use kerdi to waterproof a swimming pool, i guarantee it will fail. There's a lot of room for failure when you rely on thinset to waterproof a shower.
This was awesome. Thank you so much!
Thanks!! Glad you liked it!!😁
New subscriber here! Great video and the one with the Schluter test base also! I’m heading into a diy bathroom myself and have a question. Can schluter and redgard work together? I’ve got a schluter shower pan and curb system, but will be using redgard on the walls and I’m feeling nervy about the details.
Shulter sucks they want you to use unmodified thinset it does hold
Good analysis of the problems with TileCoach's 7 day flood test. I like the guy, but I wouldn't call that an ideal installation. I think the explanation for the 'failure' was right before our eyes--and his---at the beginning of the video. Watch the first minute of that video again where they're removing water from the pan. They are clearly splashing water into and over the sides of the tray, and that's just the one corner that is visible. We also don't see if any splashing occurred when he initially filled the tray. He even warns them to take it easy due to the splashing. The other possibility would be a pinhole caused by his drywall knife, and that problem would be minimized once the floor is tiled and thinset is pushed into all of the corners. Here's a link to the part of the video where the water is splashing around: ua-cam.com/video/jMGotWT4NOc/v-deo.htmlsi=qsMWSsAQ0lzMs7HE&t=26
could you test red guard over kerdi board, I want to see if red guard will be water proof the seams of kerdi board for a flood test. Also could you test Laticrete Hydro Ban adhesive/sealant for the seams over kerdi board. Laticrete claims their adhesive/sealant is sufficient for seams for their boards, I assume it would work for kerdi board as well. The technician I spoke to said to have at least a 1/8 in to 1/2 in wide coverage over the seams to be water proof, and wait 2 hours for a flood test
I have tested different scenarios but no manufacturer will stand by such an installation so it really doesn’t benefit installing it that way.
Right, we know that the manufacturers won't stand by such an installation. I don't see why they might wish to, seeing as how that would be counter-productive to their competitive interests. What the initial commenter wants to know, and I do as well, is whether either of the two systems would be better in terms of functionality. We don't really care about warranties. If a product fails, no warranty is going to fix it. We just want to see some objective testing of the dual-product testing so that we, the user community, can be guided toward the best approach to get the job done.@@thebuilditchannel8609
Thinset still wicks moisture
Here's here I'm getting lost...having watched several of these videos that demonstrate the 'proper' and 'incorrect' methods of Schluter Shower system installation with regard to wicking, leakage, spotting, etc...I have a question: if the system is correctly installed and THEN TILED AND GROUTED (also correctly), how can there be any kind of leaks? Isn't the entire point of tiling & grouting a shower stall & pan designed to PREVENT any kind of leaks? What am I missing here? Where would the 'leaks' come from?
Tile and grout do not create a waterproof system by themselves. Schluter or any product meant for waterproofing installed incorrectly will cause problems.
Great video!
Not sure about the RedGard and 8+9 clear pan test, were there any leaks in the pan before applying the sealers??
Just askin!!!
What sealers?
@@thebuilditchannel8609
The redgard and 8+9. What else would you call them.?
@@richardtemby4358 Waterproofing membranes, sealers are a completely different product. There is thinset behind the membranes which will rapidly absorb water and change color making a leak very easy to detect.
@@thebuilditchannel8609
Still can’t see the clear acrylic changing colour when it gets wet.
I think you’re completely missing my point.
He's just being "difficult" re. the sealers terminology. Have to get beyond that. Basically, thebuildchannel8609, what we are asking about is whether the Redgard or Ardex 8+9 are EFFECTIVE for the intended purpose, which is to enhance or improve the water repellency imparted by the Schluter system. Can you objectively answer that without delving into semantics?@@richardtemby4358
I just installed a kerdi system and it passed a flood test, but I do see alot of wicking. I am looking for extra assurance. I tested hydro barrier on hardi backer and it doesn't bond well, most of it peels off even after wiping off dust and dampening. Would you say ardex adheres well to hardi backer?
Hydro-ban and Ardex 8+9 are both good products and will adhere to cement boards.
Can I use level quick over red guard ?
All leveling work should be done before waterproofing.
If you’re going to be doing these videos then I’d like to see a video on StarrTile’s work.
While that may not be your intended point, it was focused solely on one persons test / videos. I believe right is right and wrong is wrong. If you can’t do a video specifically about StarrTile then maybe you can potentially do one on 2 of his methods or lack there of. 1. He is telling viewers that thinset should not be used under backerboard on floor installation and 2. Preslope is not required when doing a traditional rubber shower pan liner shower pan. I know the answer but I know several people who have been confused due to his videos.
As a second generation flooring and tile guy, there is a war going on in our industry. With many fronts and battles. New vs old tech, knowledge and improvement in knowledge vs “this is the way my daddy did it. “ materials are changing rapidly and tools that go along with these changes. Tile and showers are larger more complex animals. People don’t understand products, or tools if they can’t do it on the first try they are done. I used similar things to red guard in the 90s before the big push on water proofing. I thank god in 2002 that I started using kerdi. Red guards problem was the mesh in the corners and the bloody 5 to 6 coats I used to apply to get the mill right. With drying in between could be 2 days and wreaked clothes. 😂 I don’t see anyone applying a paint on correctly. Someone should make a correct video.
I do nothing but kerdi board and ditra any more. Even with doing lots of these types of showers, there are always issues. I don’t know how I feel about people saying it’s “do it yourself friendly.” I’ve seen and heard pros mess up on Shulter. You really have to be a person that pays attention to details for any shower water proofing to work.
@@tileslay6543 if issue with sluther sistem because amature instalation look like easy watch video but peoples are not pro then licking hire pro so no mistake you will save $$ DIY best way to cry after its done if you d ont have clue as tilesetter better call pro
1st of all Your not building a swimming pool. 2nd If you want real world results then you would build a wall, splash water on it for an hour at the most like you were actually showering, then you would shut off the water then repeat for a week then tear apart your project and see if you have water leaks. Its unrealistic to build a redgard, kerdi or whatever you wanna call the stuff swimming pool and say it failed because nobody showers in a swimming pool. These tests everyone does is like taking a new engine and holding it under water for a week and seeing if there is water in the oil when it comes back up. Yep no crap there will be water in the engine. But if you just hose off the engine to clean it is there water in the engine. Nope. Its done its job. All of you guys are on the wrong path. Its like monkey see monkey do.
Most pans I make I out of kerdi. Holds water for a week or 2 weeks at a time waiting for inspection. No leaks what so ever. When you understand the science it makes sense. It’s all about capillary size and water molecules being to big to travel through the capillaries sandwiched between the fabric.
@@Random1234-j8d maybe I wrote it different. All I am saying is a shower is a momentary spray of water running down a wall and across the floor. The swimming pool comment was based on that, not a leak test. Not saying anyone is doing it wrong. Kerdi is just a choice. It is not the only was to waterproof. Thats all
Starr tile
Guess he changed his mind about making videos on installing these systems
Guess he changed his mind on making any more videos at all. Stands to reason....no subscribers really and few views. As good as he seems to be at stuff, making good, attention-getting thumbnails and titles don't seem to be in his repertoire.
wOW.. SMACK DOWN TO the TILE Coach....................................................
Artex 8+9 plus kerdi works
So does Kerdi by itself and Ardex 8+9 by itself.
@@thebuilditchannel8609 true statement. I found out that it’s difficult for first timer to work with Kerdi especially around the corners and decided to apply 8+ 9 on top of kerdi
Now try to perfect all these details in the field. Good luck not missing a single small step
@@thebuilditchannel8609 because it's a tiny mock up. In the field you have odd corners and larger area. Larger area = you get tired and make tiny mistakes. They are counting on you making a mistake to deny any kind of warranty claim
@@thebuilditchannel8609 the point is that these companies aren't charities. They're not going to pay to rebuild a shower if it fails. They will find a reason to deny it .
That is the whole point Apex, correct procedure equals successfull installations, if youre not gonna follow "every single step", then dont do the job, that goes for every sysyem out there.
Olá bom dia sou do Brasil
REAL LIFE: an installer will be: in too much of a hurry or drunk or hungover or sick with the flu or high on opioids or suffering from his chemotherapy meds or too preoccupied with his twitter feed or too preoccupied with his drawn-out-divorce or angry and pissed off at the client or angry and pissed off with his boss or too cheap or absent-minded or somewhat unskilled or sleep deprived because of his new baby or .......... You get the picture. There are no perfect installers, no prefect pros, no perfect contractors, no perfect handymen, no perfect Craig's List guys, no perfect UA-cam video guys. The more complicated a system is, the more prone it is to failure. That is a fact. From these 3 products, the least prone to failure caused by the installer is RedGard followed by Ardex 8+9 followed by the very complicated Schluter. No one likes call-backs.
never liked Kerdy, don't trust it. I use noble or Dal tile brand orange color shower liner.
Have you used it and it failed?
If this guy applies his level of logic and thoroughness of thought to politics that would make him a Republican and not a Democrat.