ICF vs Wood : How a Spray Foam 2x6 Stud Wall Compares to an ICF Wall
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- Опубліковано 4 жов 2024
- A lot of builders are looking at spray foam for insulating 2x6 walls in their new home builds... Sure this might be great at increasing the walls R-VALUE but, overall it doesn't eliminate the thermal break created by the wood studs!
Each stud is a thermal break where heat (or cold air, depending whether the house is being heated or cooled) is lost externally! The spray foam doesn't help the fact that the walls are still WOOD!
Taking a look at an ICF wall system which creates two continuous layers of insulation with no breaks!! Add in thermal mass and monolithic concrete wall and nothing can compare.
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I'm Kody Horvey, owner of Up To Kode; a full service carpentry, contracting and consulting company that proudly serves Red Deer and all of Central Alberta.
We are committed to being Central Alberta’s most sustainable and energy efficient builder with a strong focus on quality and innovation.
Our vision is to continually implement and increase the use of high efficient building practices and products to create sustainable, multi generation structures.
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Hi there,
We just built a icf home from top to bottom , 3 floors including basement just over 2500 sq/ft and the garage is just little bigger than a double and under the garage there is another room. It was quite easy to built and running the electrical and plumbing was quite easy. After the concert pours the windows went in easy. Have to say icf is the way and I live in northern alberta canada.
I'm in edmonton How much did this all cost per sqft? thanks
All that went easy initially. As a tradesman your bill is gonna be exponentially more money come Reno time
I had a new cottage built in Northern Michigan 2016. Before I decided the most bang for my buck, I looked up University studies on wall types. I went with 2x6, then structure board then 1" insulation board outside. No more thermal bridging and I can still get into the wall for modification, that flexibility is important to me. Closed cell foam only went into the roof.
@dadcssm I'm hoping to build a new house and I'm between icf or wood structure...I'm not a carpenter, so I have a question, what do you mean by one inch structure board and 1 in insulation board outside. Do you mean regular .5 plywood and 1 inch foam then stucco...sorry, just wondering. I've heard of icf, but I don't know if its going to be more expensive then regular wood home....I live in Texas by the way.
Best case that 1 inch foam is like R-7. Just bought some 2 inch stuff and it was r-10. Still pretty bad.
Great video, very informative.....I would recommend you spend just 1min talking the negatives of ICF (and not just extra cost). For example ICF has challenges doing a waterproofing on outside since then chemicals don’t deal with form well. Also a huge deal with ICF is the possible future remodeling cost (add a door, expand a space for new window, even move an outlet is very expensive into concrete vs standard framing). You also have challenges with the roof for ICF, and without a dehumidifier, condensation will form being so well insulated. I believe it is a fantastic system, and no question for insulating, but everything comes with a trade off.
Dehumidifier is not a big cost. If you install HVAC split system, they have dehumidify function on them. Water proofing is also not an issue anymore there are several products that are very good. here is one set of products that works very well.
poly-wall.com/waterproofing-system/home-stretch-icf-waterproofing-membrane
The first thing a person needs to determine is does he want to save money on the construction cost or long term over the heating and cooling cost. Keep in mind that payback for heating and cooling is going to be long and slow but that is not to say it is not an important consideration. One of the best buildings I have seen was done with 2 X 6 outer walls on two foot centers. There were no wires, pipes, or interior receptacles or lights installed in this wall. It was sprayed full of urethane foam. Inside of that a two by three wall was constructed with 3/8 sheetrock on the outside. all wiring and plumbing was done inside this wall. A 1" dead air space was left between this interior wall and the exterior wall. The Doors and windows were the only places the walls were linked. The house was dead quiet no matter how hard the wind blew and so tight that an air exchange system had to be installed to keep the air good. Cost to heat 2600 square feet, 75 a month Electric (based on a wattage meter on the furnace.
The word you are looking for is thermal bridging. Thermal bridging Bad. Thermal break Good.
Andy Hutchison omg you are using my ex-mother in law as your avitar.. Lol
You might pick on the 2 x 6 walls with spray foam. But my 3300 square-foot house we did that way in Florida has $150 power bill average per month
The doors and windows only require lumber bucks to support openings during the concrete pour. Supports can be removed when concrete is cured enough to support its weight over any span. Windows can be flange mounted or centre mounted with screws into the plastic ribs of the block or styrofoam buck.
Google "Fox Block "
I am in the process of building a footing to rafters ICF Fox Block home in Vernon BC.
Build Alaskan wall. Double 2x4 walls (with staggered studs). Spray foam that sucker and you should be fine up to Mars temperatures :P
That’s one way. I think you would be very close to the same cost as ICF and you would be lacking other advantages that ICF offers. But your method would be perfectly fine as well
just a couple of points. ALL concrete cracks, Keeping out water of a below grade build can be difficult. There is a range of installed insulation R-values in commercially available fiberglass batts for the stud space insulation in this wall system. The installed insulation R-value for 2x6 fiberglass batt ranges between R-19 and R-21. When blown or sprayed cellulose insulation is used, the R-value is typically R-20 for 2x6 walls. The benefit of stick built is future flexibility with utilities. ICF has the benefit of a thermal mass of the concrete which does not fluxuate as rapidly as outdoor temperatures; BUT still conducts temperatures. There also is no air flow through an ICF wall, as can happen in a stick built wall with plumbing/electrical outlets. Pros/cons of each system are for the owner to weigh. One man can build an addition by himself using traditional stick build methods, as I have. To do an ICF, you would need a few men to handle the concrete portion with the pump/hose movement, etc. if a boom pumping truck can't get into job site. Handy home owners may go with traditional building techniques if doing their own work. Just my 2 cents worth...........
ICF adds easy 10% on the price of your build! i'm dealing with it now... the price is $85,000 just for the exterior walls..
how many square feet and floors? If I may ask?
12 months later your better off using platinum studs instead of wood, it’ll be cheaper
How big is this house? That’s is way too high. So either you have a house over 4000 square feet or someone has quoted extremely high because they think they can.
Prices are all over the place right now.
I thought concrete did a lot of expanding and contraction. That's why you install or cut Expansion Joints, to control the cracking?
I have never see settling cracks or side effects from this in the many ICF homes I have seen. It may expand within the EPS and therefore not transfer the pressure to the outer cladding or interior finishes. Interesting concern, but I haven’t seen it happen to anyone yet.
Nice. If you have to do stick/foam how would T-studs compare? Supposedly they stop 95% of the thermal bridging.
I built my house 3000 sf. That stuff is the best. Wired the hole house some problems but a drill bit cuts right thru length wise..i got propane once this winter upstate ny..David
i Lived in the mass concret insulation job like in this video. Felt stuff. Not enough air moving. Give it a few years when this insulate the world era goes and it will be all about breathability.
Hey there Kody, what part of Alberta are you located????? I have been building high efficient homes for over 35 years and would love to talk to you about this subject... thanks, Maurice Huet
Hi Maurice. I’m from Red Deer. My email is kody@uptokode.com
If you are going to frame with 2x6's then you should use advanced framing techniques. Things like 24" oc studs, more efficient corner builds, etc. In a 1700 sq ft house, I saved over $300 dollars in lumber costs alone. Remember that the cost of labor must always be adjusted for the extra time taken to build non-standard houses. Another trick is to use 2x4's wherever the code will allow with 2x6 framing to reduce the thermal bridging (the second top plate for instance.)
Another building option in colder climates would be to use 2x4 framing 24" oc with a single story house or on the top story, and sheath the outside with OSB, drain wrap, 1"-1.5" continuous rigid foam, and siding. In hotter climates foil backed thin sheets plus an air gap works great. Six inches or so of uninsulated foundation walls exposed to colder ground level temperatures will allow heat to escape from the house, so ICF for the foundation build with good drainage is preferred. (Watch out for termites when using ICF!)
When comparing apples to oranges, use the ripest fruit.
sounds really good until the tornado comes then the ole butt cheek get mighty tight
It's true that the stronger the better, but most of the US isn't in tornado ally, and a direct hit is going to damage your house unless it is completely underground. Jacque Fresco has designed a house that can withstand a direct hit better than any other design. It is shaped like a cone - think of a large fancy Teepee.
Thats true you don't see them in a lot of places like Vegas or Arizona New Mexico , I was born and raised in Houston Texas so hurricanes are no joke. I can tell you that a ICF home can withstand both. The only week point is the roof, and as long as you properly tie the roof, meaning using plywood rather than OBS, Using screws rather than nails, and the proper hurricane clips, that home wont go anywhere even if your windows fail. A stick built home is basically doomed if directly hit by either a tornado or hurricane.
The best wall. Staggered 2/4 studs on 2/8 plates. Mineral wool ins. ( roxul, or sim. ). 5/8 yellow gypsum outside sheathing ( high vapor perm. ) Two layers of 5/8 drywall with 1 tube of Green Glue inside. This is a very quiet, almost fire proof, high r-value wall. The material cost is about $ 3.5 for a wall that delivers a R 25 true performance.
Love this. I've never worked with the yellow gypsum sheathing, seen it on commercial projects mind you. Isn't the yellow layer fiberglass? Does that hold a fastener (screw, nail) the way OSB would? Also, the two layers of interior 5/8", is that strictly for sound?
kkarllwt mineral wool is great insulation dry, fire resistant, and gives you lung cancer!!!
The best wall is icf point blank period
Only a 5% cost increase on an entire house of concrete. I think your estimate is off by quite a bit.
Kody Horvey what is your advice on screws to use for mounting into the plastic studs? The coarser the better? Or do you want fine thread?
A "thermal break" is the opposite of what you said it was. A thermal break increases your R value and reduces conductive thermal transfer.
I think he was meaning "thermal bridge." my best guess.
Dan L That is what I thought as well, but he repeated to use both interchangeably throughout the video.
I used to work with a guy who would use the "almost right" phrase like that; in a report he wrote, he meant to be describing the "white goods" (aka, appliances) found scattered around the landfill. He kept using the phrase "white trash" in the report. Almost a career ending mistake, except we laughed for something in excess of 5 years over that one....yeah, having the right word pays off! :-)
I could see how he could get that confused since the video is in 380p which I thought went away with 10 year old flip phones and VHS.
Dan L, 😲 I’m still laughing! Yes, words matter.
I'd be more interested in results from a simple hotbox test than by purported values. Build an 8x8x8 box of taped foam board with a temperature probe placed inside. Replace one wall with your test wall. Stick a heat lamp inside and record interior temperatures until they stabilize. use a thermal camera to take a shot of the outside. Repeat the test with your other test wall. Test walls should preferably have an identical outer surface applied (such as identical sheets of paper) to give an identical emissivity for the thermal camera for fair comparison readings.
Great idea! I’ll add it to my list.
Build double wall. Outside w/ 2x3 and inside w/ 2x4 and offset.
Or just go icf. No way the added floor (bigger slab) plus extra wood will result in any money savings. And the icf will be stronger, hold up in tornado/hurricane etc.
Try that with lumber prices today...
With ICF above grade you need to add framing for siding and windows. Also an ICF basement still requires framing to finish the rooms and extra work for egress openings too.
No, you just have to use screws instead nails to attach drywall or exterior siding, or go with stucco.
This is not true. Google Fox block.
Ryan Guyer ICF are made so as to attach sheathing and drywall directly to the wall. But, furring strips may be added. Yes, window and door openings need to be framed, the same as in stick construction.
Negative Ryan, ICF can have drywall directly applied inside the building and siding directly applied outside unless it has to be vertical wood siding, Then it make need strapping. No house wrap, no rainsceen. Window and door buck can be 2x12 treated lumber or a vinyl buck.
Try AMVIC ICF from PACIFIC ICF Also use AMPEX for radiant heated floors and SILVERBOARD rigid insulation for walls , floor rafters etc
bill@pacificicf.com
We are in the process of building an ICF home and did steel window and door bucks. Also added 20 gauge 2 inch steel strips to interior side of ICF 16in on center to act as studs for drywall. Just got done with drywall and passed our drywall inspection today as a matter of fact. Inspector said we are building a fortress. He is so impressed. In AZ btw.
I think you can overcome some of the wood thermal conduction by using insulated cladding on the outside, although it might be expensive.
10tenman10 ICF is expensive and 1/4 the speed. The whole problem with wood frame is that they went from 2x4 to 2x6. They should have kept the 2x4 and went to an exterior insulation system. Best I've seen is a building with a CLT frame and 8 inches of exterior insulation. Probably as expensive as ICF but way faster and more environmental.
Richard Burdett
Agree that ICF is slow, although I guess concrete is pretty solid. Am watching the Pure Living for Life website. They built with ICF and then lumber (cut by them). It seems to be taking forever to put their house together!
@@10tenman10 pure life for living are idiots though. I wouldn't take building tips from vloggers
I would like to see your data of 60% surface area being wood. With the large gap between the 2x6 60% seems high.
sixteen not "sixtee"
So how does that affect the r-value of the wall as a whole. Drywall is R-.45, OSB is R-.6, 2x6 is R-6.88. So the R-value of 16% of the wall is 7.93. The R-value of the remaining wall area with R-21 insulation is R-22.05
The stud U-factor is .1261 x 16%= .019456. U-factor for the cavity is .04535 x 84%=.038. .038+.019456=.057456. This is the U-factor of the entire wall as a whole. This is the equivalent of R-17.4. Add R-6 rigid foam to the exterior and this gets bumped up to R-24.12 for the whole wall. ICF block have R-value of 23. The concrete does not provide substantial R-value. 8 inches is r-.16. The cost of 800 sq ft of wall with ICF is $6000 and that's not including the pumper truck. The cost of the typical stick built wall is $1835. Three years into your new house, try putting a new door in the ICF wall.
Nice ad for icf, in theory a good product and idea but in practice I only see problems down the road. Especially for the second owners of an icf house.
Why would a second owner not want a better house?
I'm talking with respect to future renovations, maybe they want to make the kitchen/living room etc bigger by blowing out an exterior wall.
This is helpful information regarding the "core wall." What this video does not address is the cost differences of installing the interior and exterior siding. You would never leave the foam of an ICF wall exposed to weathering. Properly attaching siding to ICF is more expensive (labor) if done right. Installing wiring is not much difference between the two, but installing and securing outlet and switch boxes is (much faster in stick frame). Also, one should consider future modifications to the structure. Want to add an outlet or switch later on? How about a window or expand into another room? ICF can't compare to stick frame there.
That's only because you think of every problem as a nail! You want a window there, get the concrete saw out and cut the hole!
Sorry, didn't mean to imply that those modifications aren't doable in an ICF wall, they are just more labor intensive and therefore costly. I was going on the title which was about "comparing." I've added a few windows here and there over the years to stick-frame walls, four hour job if no wires or plumbing are in your way. I would spend over an hour going to the rental yard to get and return the concrete saw. : )
What about ICF vs Tstud? That would make it a more level playing ground due to the Tstud allowing a full coverage of the foam throughout the wall
It would help for sure with thermal bridging but nothing you can do to a wood wall will ever make it equal to ICF. In terms of strength, insulation value, thermal mass, sound, rot proof, and multiple steps done at 1 time.
When you say an ICF is approx %5 increase, what ceilings and floors are you talking about? Is this a traditional wood joist and subfloor or is this an ICF poured floor and joist?
Most garages are not set at 12 inch on center. you have way to much wood in there, also they don't use 2x6.
Hay you ever use sand or dirt with some woodglue in stead of Clement, ? It works
@0:30 I think you meant "Thermal Bridge" as in: a bridge between the inside and outside temperatures of the structure (the building).
I dare say that SIPs are probably the way of the future, but then it's more of an assembly job (like ICFs) than a traditional carpentry job. They have almost no thermal bridges and they have a much higher R-value. The only thing they don't have is Thermal Mass.
If properly insulated, cement can be a GREAT benefit to the R-value of a structure - but ALL the insulation needs to be on the outside of the cement wall (the thermal mass) so the thermal mass does not change temperature thus maintaining a comfortable temperature inside the structure.
Germany is a world leader in the Passive Haus (Passive House) homes. There are a few homes in America that are designed by the Passive Haus people, but more common is a concept called "Net Zero" homes which is a similar concept, but not quite the same. The Passive Haus is a movement that has been growing for decades in Germany and is starting to catch on in a big way.
This is why physics (thermodynamics) is important to learn in high school and university for architects, engineers, and designers. However, unfortunately for us in the USA, the electric and gas (and HVAC) industries are not too keen on this movement gaining momentum here as it *greatly* cuts into their revenues.
The Germany to USA comparison fails because of the climate differentials. The USA has radically different climates from region to region whereas Germany is relatively similar. You never see passive houses in desert climates or areas with dramatic seasonal differences and large swings in seasonal or even daily temperatures. Or when you do they fail to maintain comfort levels acceptable to most inhabitants. The HVAC industry is protecting itself but has also created much more efficient systems than were available even ten years ago. These more efficient systems combined with high R-Values use less electricity which reduces the amount of electricity required by a solar array. I like ICF for more than its thermal mass. ICFs can create and almost silent interior space. The mass of ICF is more resistant to storms and resulting damage. Finally, ICF house walls, it thick enough, are bullet proof.
You're right. Most Passive Haus s are in Northern Germany where it only reaches 100F for one month in the summer.
I live in Shasta County, California. It freezes in the winter, and it's 110-120 in the summer (we were on the national news back in 2003 for 118 degree heat - tied with the Sahara Dessert for the hottest place on earth that day (July?).
For 6 months of the year we have to run A/C to cool the older buildings (my apartment was built in the 80's, two stories, and only 2x4 rock wool (aka fiberglass) insulation - which is another issue: convective heat rises to/through the ceiling and then loops back down through the ceiling in a current.)
But, like I was saying, SIPs in modern buildings can create a passive haus if the insulation is thick enough (sure, this is not "cost effective" because closed cell insulation is quite expensive (only because of greed from the chemical companies of course). Also, thick insulation on the outside of a cement wall would also work because of the lack of thermal bridging in SIP construction which could be installed on the outside of the cement walls (thermal mass).
But instead of 50 degree frigid air blowing on the back or one's neck, there's a much better way to cool any building, and it doesn't even need HVAC - ua-cam.com/video/CVginpnALL8/v-deo.html
I lived in northern Oregon for 20+ years and now in Phoenix for 20+ years. I was never impressed radiant heat from a ceiling. Don't know about radiant cooling. I am curious about chillers as opposed to A/C and think that continually moving a low volume of air (HVLP) at a constant even temperature (warm/cool not hot/cold) would be the best solution. Still doing research. For the record, I like SIPs and think it's a great technology and hope the it and ICFs and the like gain wider acceptance. We really need to put stick framing behind us, seriously.
I totally agree with leaving stick framing behind, but now architects are saying that they can build skyscrapers with wood beams instead of steel and concrete. They claim that it's "greener" than cement (and I've heard this for the past decade).
Yeah, radiant heat from a ceiling doesn't sound very comfortable to me, but cooling sounds great (as heat tends to rise) but the radiant flooring option seems logical.
I think that there probably isn't any one perfect solution, but as we design structures to be comfortable and "green" taking into account the climate they are built in, I think that may be the best way to design and build.
I grew up with a wood stove for heat, so I'm not too keen on the idea, but wood doesn't have to be the heat source, and these soapstone fireplaces claim to be excellent thermal mass lasting for 12-24 hours (some even have a pizza oven built in). www.tulikivi.com/usa-can
Again, one could use gas or solar-electric or any heat source with a mass of soapstone and get the same efficiency and effect. Some people have built thermal mass out of earth (dirt/straw) surrounding their fireplace/stove. Using earth seems like a no-brainer, but no one (corporations) likes it because you can't sell it/make a profit off of dirt that is already on the person's property that they own.
I have also thought about HLVP myself and wondered why the industry hasn't changed decades ago from HVAC (must be a $ profit thing). It makes total sense to change the air by a degree or two and push it through the ducts 75% (cycling off 25% of the time) of the time rather than expensive AC units creating annoying/uncomfortable 55 degree air.
However, with thermal mass there's little need to move air, and moving air is not as efficient/economical/green as it uses energy to turn fan blades...unless it's solar or similar green powered. But then there's still air movement which I don't consider as comfortable unless it's fresh air coming through my windows.
It all comes down to money, tradition and the unwillingness to change. Looking through the comments on this video alone I can see emotionally driven replies which is is counter productive. "New" technology is always more expensive until widely accepted and production costs are reduced. If we apply some of the logic seen here to other technologies none these people would have cell phones, computers or a modern car. The construction industry is one of the last Luddite strongholds. It's sad really but won't deter me from building an ICF house.
Don't you still have to frame walls inside to hang drywall.
No. There’s plastic ties every 8” that hold the form together during concrete placement. Those same ties run vertical (like a stud) and you can attach to the exterior and interior very easily.
@@uptokode so for things like electrical and plumbing, do you just chisel paths through the foam? For exterior like vinyl all the screws will be drilled through your vapor coat/wrap?
Only making your comparison against wood-framing.. What about cinder blocks? Commerical construction loves building with them.
ICF's have superior insulation properties, no doubt. But what about the interior and exterior cladding. Left raw, ICF's are not flame resistant. And don't forget about the complexities of running wiring and plumbing through them.
Great for foundations though.
What you are talking about is actually thermal bridging. The 2x6 have an r value of 1.41 per inch, which is equivalent to 7.755 r value. I do all kinds of insulation, and the blow in is what i make the most money at. That being said, spray foam is the best there is. Period. It is NOT about r value.. i mean a yeti cooler is awesome.. unless you are opening it and grabbing beers out of it frequently. The most important part of building science is air sealing. End of story. You air seal, and add the high r value of spray foam and it doesn't get any better considering our modern day building strategy.
What about SIPs?
Concrete adds a hell of a lot more than 5% to the coast.
It’s only 5% on an entire house build. That’s because there’s a ton of other costs that help keep the difference of price into perspective. Yes if you compare specifically a wood wall to an ICF the ICF is a lot higher. However the point of the video is instead of throwing an expensive insulation at a wood wall why not consider ICF for the entire home because OVERALL it’s not a lot more and the benefits are substantially more than conventional.
There’s 2 schools of thought ...you either base your decisions entirely on price or you weigh the balance of more advantages compared to what that added cost is.
Either way...thanks for the debate.
It's worth it
Could you provide contact information for a prospective client? I would be interested in using you as my contractor. Thanks.
Yes, but that does not help me with my attic roof. Suggestions?
You can take ICF all the way to the roof. I would recommend LiteDeck or QuadDeck. You can go conventional appearance or flat roof and have some rooftop gardens or usable space. Or you can use SIPs for the roof over a ridge beam. 12” EPS does well. Or you can spray closed cell for two inches up to the sheathing and then 10” of open cell. Or you can spray 1” of open cell on top of your drywall ceiling and put 15” of cellulose. The main idea for attics (outside disaster areas) is to mitigate heat loss/gain. The main premise is airtight the entire building envelope and condition the attic or airtight the boundary at the ceiling level and let the attic be a breezeway. Either way airtightness is required and you need an ERV.
UMMM...WOOD HAS R-VALUE DOES IT NOT? How about a log home with 18" thick log walls?
generally wood it thought of to have an R value of 1 per inch of thickness. An 18" thick Log wall properly chinked should have an R value around R-16 to R-18. Windows and door openings in the all of course reduce that amount considerably.
You didn't give us any numbers on insulation value wood vs icf. Wood is not a great conductor of heat as it is...
Your correct that each stud is a thermal bridge with spray foam, however, every seam in the icf bock is also a thermal break! I would recommend strapping the 2x6 walls with 2x4s along the exterior every 2’ horizontally that way the foam can expand behind the stud. I’ve had this debate with one of my friends who specialize in icf block and it is considerably cheaper to go with spray foam than icf.
A good ICF block (like foxblock) well use a lase seam design, this removes the straight shot for air movement. The only "through" seam would be at a single point in each wall at the mating joint.
Ok am i missing something? You are saying that 2 x6 is a cheaper install. I am going to say bullshit for these reasons, first once you use ICF you are done, now if you are talking about installing utilities you are still done as you only have to cut out the foam install you electrical or plumbing then reseal with foam. You are saying that by stick building you fill the 2 x 6 with the expanding foam or even fiber insulation thats a lot of steps, expanding insulation is really expensive then your home is not as air tight and water tight. The ICF give you advantages as far as being much tighter, bullet proof, and a much better hurricane or tornado resistance. Finally there is fire rating relative to insurance. I am sorry but the ICF system is far less labor intensive which equates cheaper install. What am i missing ?
You need to talk dew points that's the most important. It moves all over in the wall you get moisture between the concrete and foam (mold) your screwed and the foam used in icf WILL hold moisture I've seen closed cell foam so full of water you couldn't lift it. It's also a little bit harder to move a window. Nobody ever changes they're mind. lot easier to add an addition with conventional framing
The dew point issue has been addressed and dismissed years ago. Properly constructed, there will be no trapped moisture or mold in an ICF wall. As for "closed cell foam so full of water you couldn't lift it", you either had open cell foam or a catastrophic failure of the foam itself. Either way, the problem is not the ICF. Proper Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance, so a window should never need to be moved after an adequate design process.
@James Michael Agreed, there would also be many boat builders alarmed by this possibility.
ICF is better . ice is mold, air, water, fire, bullet, bug/pest/rodent, people proof, stronger. and you can do concrete roof as well. :)
Did you say, with adding more isolation to the outside of a framed wall you have more farting around?! Lol! I am with u ICF makes more sense.
Haha. Yes I did. Very technical terms.
Timms, $115-130 here in Maine. (depending on location, and ease of delivery, etc) - local labor & region are the big players for sure.
Does the ICF wall system use closed or open cell foam? That is very important.
Usually or at least all of the ICF forms that I have ever used are EPS, which is closed cell. You will always want to put a waterproofing membrane on the exterior, below grade, and some form of weather screen above grade as some water can still force its way in between blocks.
This system would I think cause problems when you need to mount something inside your home and need it anchored to a stud. Can u clarify if this is incorrect?
Depending on the brand of block, there is a "stud" in the wall every 6", 8", or 12". cabinets can be hung directly off of the ICF.
What about T - studs I have been looking into them they look awesome.
I saw a demo of T-studs. They fix the thermal bridging problem and are stronger than standard framing lumber, but they are more expensive.
@@daiwie7044 Depending on size of house can save lots on heating and cooling.Getting back investment quickly .
How do you run electrical, plumbing., etc in an ICF?
Before you pour the concrete, you plug the necessary holes on the forms, like they do on regular lumber concrete forms. Then before you fasten the drywalls directly to the ICF forms, which they have high density plastic studs inside, you carve the EPS to create channels to route the wire and pipes. You could also add lumber studs on the EPS, for installing the drywalls, although it is a waste of time and material.
if its so simple to install why is the cost so much higher than traditional stick build labor.
Because the bigger builders don't want to change the way they do things, as they would have to learn to do things differently, which most don't want to do. They just want to hand the plans off to the respective trades and be done with it.
I built an icf house in Australia (zego block) and you have to use their scaffolding system and it's expensive to hire, you have no choice !! Every system has pros and cons, there is no perfect system.
Can you use air create in these as it would save on cost and increase R value
Aircrete as yet is untested to qualify as a structural component. You could use pumice Crete in areas it qualifies. Aircrete has much more testing to pass to qualify. Currently concrete for structural applications is coded to require 2500psi compression strength where aircrete is about 500psi on a good day. I hope integral composites of aircrete are one day qualified (I’m researching it now) for structural use but as yet it is not viable for such as far as codes are concerned.
The 2"x6" stud wall wins -hands down.
Try mounting a shelf on styrofoam. Try running
wiring for outlets on styrofoam. Try mounting sheathing
on concrete and styrofoam. So much easier with studs.
Ian Crossley Hi Ian. When I run wires in an ICF wall I use a router with a dovetail bit to cut a channel in the foam. The wire then snaps in really easily. I have mounted cabinets and shelves on the old Polysteel forms (they were bought out by Foxblock) these forms had a steel bracket instead of plastic that was great.
Mounting anything is easy. It’s just like a stud wall...once you find a stud it’s every 16” on centre...oh wait... ICF is every 8” thus it should be easier to mount cabinets or shelves. And the snap ties are designed to hold nail and screw strength.
some of the ICFs advertise webbing that can be connected to at every 6" - with pullouts of 150# anywhere, and 500# pull out strength at certain points, if you need to go nuts on anchoring something serious. (that's the buildblock product, which is the one I'm most familiar with.) on larger projects, much of the block stacking can be done by laborers, with the skilled workers doing the rebar; the savings isn't as noticeable on smaller projects, but on larger ones, it can be less expensive to build ICF. Once the pour is complete, you have structural, insulation and mounting points done at once. there's several good ICF companies out there, and though I'm partial to one, check a few out; you may be pleasantly surprised at what's available these days. regards, ~DL
Ian, you need to watch some of the commercial build ICF videos, electricians doing wiring on the first floor while pouring concrete on the second floor, impressive! 2 x 6 wall construction is so yesterday. ICF and double wall 2 x 4 will lead as consumers and contractors smarten up and start building net zero homes. Modular home manufacturer in my area are building to R40 in the walls and R60+ in the roof using dense pack fiberglass!
Ian,
All the ICF blocks have internal studs 6 or 8" apart for screwing on the drywall or siding, never into foam. For electrical or pipes, vents , either send a conduit through the wall prior to the pour or use an electric chainsaw to rough out the wire channel and the electrical box needs a hole in the foam and is screwed to a stud. Siding applies directly outside , no house wrap or no rainscreen.
AMVIC is the strongest ICF with R-30 and R-22 blocks. Save 50% in heating cost.
bill@pacificicf.com
What about electrical? Is it more expensive with ICF?
No the electrical is not more. Some guys might try to charge a premium but it’s really quite simple to run wire in an ICF wall.
Thanks for the reply. I'm definitely going to check into an ICF.
I've seen guys use a modified soldering iron to drag a line through the ICF foam, and create a wire channel. if someone needed to run a wire around the perimeter, drilling holes in the studs of one wall would take more time than "etching" a groove in the ICF. I think the big wins of ICF are the built-in insulation R-values, the "automatic" air-sealing, the penetration resistance to flying debris (important in hurricane/tornado areas) and the inherent sound proofing. Some ICF manufactures make it easy for the follow-on trades to walk in behind them, and start making fur-fly right away.
I was wondering how they would do it. I was thinking they would have to run conduit prior to pouring the concrete which is why I thought it would be more expensive. So, they just run it through the foam, that make a lot more sense than what I was thinking. Thanks for the information.
Dan L etching doesn't seem like too bad a Way to do it. Not sure how much running wire through galvanize pipe would be but I don't think it looks bad.
what is the R value of the ICF wall and the 2x6 wall? i have seen house done hear with double 2x4 wall with a 4" air bake so you end up with a foot thick wall but have great R vale and do not have to pass and utilities though your vapor barrier. never being around ICF what makes your vapor barrier?
mog5858 the foam meets the spec for a class 1 vapor barrier. The CC makes it very airtight. Typical R value is around 30 once clad inside and out. Where it shines is with the mass of the concrete. Takes time to heat mass, and this delay puts the transfer of energy thru the wall out of phase with the daily temperature cycle. IE: about the time the days heat is making it thru the wall, it is just starting to cool down inside as no more sun is coming thru the windows. This delay helps keep the internal temp more stable...
@@rronmar Great explanation
And so... have you calculated the additional cost of siding the home. What is the cost then to drywall the walls on the inside. Doesn't that have to be framed? I have no dog in the fight but you video seems staggeringly inaccurate and misleading. Sorry but I don't buy it from an over-all cost perspective. Also, the majority of heat loss is through the roof, not the sidewalls and the majority of the heat loss in the sidewalls goes through the windows. Come on, be honest.
Cost of siding a icf should be the same as any stick building. You do not frame out the interior walls either, just screw right into the foam.
It's more than 5 percent more but that's basically the cost of wood/nails and labor vs blocks/concrete and labor, and the wood labor takes longer.
how on earth do you wire or plumb a house for anything when all the walls are solid concrete?
I am also curious. Pre-run pvc? or Install prior to pour? both seem like bad ideas.
Huge added cost to concrete for all the internal necessary HVAC and Electrical equipment that is usually located within the walls, not to mention the drywall or wall covering that is attached to the stud walls
Easy to route channels for wires. Sheetrock screws to embedded plastic strips in blocks - take pics and measure to know where strips are.
Plumbing is typically under slab and comes thru slab, sometimes in routed channel in foam behind Sheetrock. All in all sure glad I did icf. The impact of thermal mass between insulation means cold and heat never get thru in some states - r65 equivalent. For outside stucco, metal latching sheets screwed to plastic in blocks - very easy to do. The huge factor is that thermal mass between insulators that average and cancel day sun heating with night cooling. Far superior to wood and high density foam.,
Brian Smith you screw drywall direct to embedded plastic strips in those blocks. Just like Sheetrock over studs. Outside you screw on metal lathing for 3/4 inch stucco. But yes, all wiring planned and done ahead, no wire fishing after, except on interior framed walls.
ICF is great for the basement or below grade, but not for the entire house. Try to run it up to the second floor...need a very beefy foundation. Overall, more work and cost entirely too much. Your cost calculation is off...way off.
P Dan. Not true. We take all our ICF builds to the roof. The above grade walls are the same thickness as the basement walls. The only thing that is bigger is the footing. Where we live (Sask, Can), a footing would be 16" x 8" for a traditional basement (bungalow). To build the same with ICF, the footing is typically 24" x 8". To go to a 2 storey, it would be 30" x 10".
This guy has it all wrong, spray foam does more than just insulate. It also helps sound reduction, vapor break, it adds 40% to the structure of the building. Yes it is more expensive than batt insulation, but in the long run it pays off.
I doubt open cell foam adds 40% strength to a building structure. I can def. see a closed foam system but then you're adding nearly 40-50% more in cost vs an open cell.
Consider SIP's instead
ICF is great but EXPENSIVE. If $ is not an issue ------- go with it but $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Cost is cost, the end
What I find interesting is that you never mention windows. that is where you lose the majority of your R-value. lumber is not the problem you are making it out to be.
you sir are half right, cheap windows are the biggest waist relative to energy, but so are cheap exterior door, uninsulated garages with uninsulated garage doors. I am sorry but to stick build a home and make it as efficient as a ICF home is really expensive because the new line of exterior fiber boards are expensive. So you got to build the 2 x 6 wall then put at least 2 other building systems on the exterior of the wall plus caulking on each system. I am sorry guys I simply don't see how stick building can out perform the ICF system that is one and done.
@@andrewells7441 tstuds solve this.
You did a lot of talking & you made a lot of arguments, but you really didn’t show any engineering calculation. Heat transfer is not difficult & there's been so much engineering done in this area. All you were doing was selling ICFs without engineering support. Joe Lansberry
Joseph. I am an ICF contractor in Saskatchewan Canada, and also living in and ICF home. To give you some real world numbers, our house is 2000 sq ft bungalow (main floor), 4 car attached garage. We heat the garage all winter long to about 15C (60F). Our natural gas bill for all of 2017 was $949 CDN. Our temps go from +35C (95F), down to -40C (-40F). When we show potential clients how much we can build them an ICF home for, and approximately what it will cost to heat (based on real world numbers from all our clients), it's not a tough sell.
Whey you build with icf most of the manufacturing companies have engineers on staff to do the calculations I would always have my own engineers to spec the foundation.
Staggered stud wall... 2' centers... Theres lots of ways to improve the r value with out spending a fortune on concrete.
Always debatable! That’s the fun part.
Or 2" xps on the outside wall
A fortune? How does 5% more equal a fortune? There's a TON of money in bldg homes. If builders would build better homes, safer homes by using ICF instead of complaining about how they can better a piece of wood that's had its protection(bark) removed, everyone would make out in the end. "I've always done it this way" is the worst excuse ever as well.
My question would be ‘’seeing’s how I know little about ICF walls’’ is... Wouldn’t you just put even more money into attaching sub walls for sheets of drywall or extra structural bracing for windows/doors? Which would make the 5% extra costs even more.
garrimic3 That is the bonus with icf walls they have plastic strips embedded in them so the drywall screws right to them so there is no sub wall.
Give me a stick build house any day! That ICF wall has problems with it. On the outside you have to clad it with something above grade which is a problem unless you are building a stucco ranch. On the inside you have pretty much the same problem unless you have some good plasterers but then alterations to the house are a nightmare. My house has a 8" reinforced concrete foundation which has been sprayed to the fill line with hot asphalt, covered with some kind of mesh, sprayed again and then 4" of rigid foam is pressed to it and taped, then back filled. The pattern in the concrete, in and out, is brick. The inside is painted with Ultra DryLok (2 coats) and then 2 coats of SW ultra high gloss white. The floor has 2 coats of concrete paint. Warm as toast, dry as a bone and dust free. The rest of the house is stick built. For 2,800sf. we spend about $110/month for heating, A/C, hot water and washer/dryer. When I reside this house, I will put 5/8" Dowboard all around and Allside Charter Oak vinyl. Did this for my 4,700sf. house and got a real surprise - lower utility bills (expected) but complete silence though I am very close to the Ohio Turnpike and the CSX mainline coming out of Cleveland, OH.
John, since terms are not defined I am left to interperet what you mean by cladding. Both stick and icf builds require an outer surface such as siding, stucco, brick or stone veneer. Both require protection from moisture using a barriers under the above mentioned veneers. This moisture barrier could be tyvec, zip-r sheathing or a liquid applied product from prosoco. Internal to most modern icf's is "stud" attachment alloing drywall and exterior veneers to be attached. Each type construction is different and must be properly designed and installed. They are not the same for sure but to suggest that icf's need cladding and that somehow makes them inferior or substantially different to stick building is really a miss guided statement. Now if you mean something else than what I stated above you will have to explain in greater detail.
Not the way to go. Spray foam all day!
Yeah yeah, blah blah blah, all the heat from my furnace is seaping out of my house through the sheetrock, 1.5" x 5.5" solid wood, 1/2" exterior sheeting, vapor wrap, and siding. Theoretical calculations to try and prove a point or make a case for change for the sake of change.
Plus no mention of rebar costs and install.
No way am i building a foam house... lmao lazy ppl. Know wonder they blow away
ICF = Insulated CONCRETE Form. It’s a concrete home
Twice the price no thanks
Please try to be less biased next time. Too obvious.
You must be new to UA-cam.