ICF vs SIPs vs Framing - Pros and Cons
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- Опубліковано 4 лис 2019
- Insulated Concrete Forms vs Structural Insulated Panels vs Traditional Platform Framing. In this video I will give you the pros & cons for all three of these building systems. While most homes in the US/Canada are built with traditional framing is that the best system? And what about Insulated Concrete Forms or Structural Insulated Panels, what advantages do these have? I've built homes with all three of these systems in my 24 years as a Builder, so I'll give you my thoughts along with a cost comparison.
We have a few spots left in next week's Builder Training in Denver Colorado Nov 12-13, 2019. Details here: constructioninstruction.com/e...
A few of the videos I mentioned in today's Build Show:
3 Benefits of SIPs Framing vs Traditional Studs - • 3 Benefits of SIPs Fra...
Insulated Concrete Forms - Overview, Costs, and Cons - • Insulated Concrete For...
This Pink Stuff is The Secret to ICF Waterproofing -
• This Pink Stuff is The...
Timber Frame Time Lapse - • Timber Frame Time Lapse
Bensonwood Factory Tour - • Framing in a Factory w...
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I am an ICF exclusive builder, who has used it all. I was raised in a family of custom home builders - all using the traditional method. We tried adopting SIPS, but found that it wasn't the easiest to work with, however the overall build was much better than traditional methods. Then we started to use ICF... WOW. I'm a civil engineer by study, and this stuff impressed the heck out of me. You cannot beat the user-friendliness, ease of construction, air tightness, strength, sound barrier, etc. I decided to start a business only doing ICF, as that's how strongly I believe in the product. I've also used almost all the brands out there, and in my opinion, the superior one is Integra Spec. For its ease of use and minimal waste especially when compared to other ICF brands. Not only is it 100% recycled material, but it keeps much more waste out of the landfills (or you can look at it that we're not throwing the clients money in the landfill either...)
Have you run into any condensation issues? and how deep would you go. I want to do a bunker with ICF and a basement over that the whole house ICF.
@@weekendwarrior9171 I have never had issues with condensation. If installed properly, and designed with proper ventalation, HRV, etc there should be no issues! As for depth, no real restriction there as long as properly reinforced (not sure where you're located for earthquake, etc). I do a vertical run of M10 every 30" and a horizontal run every 24" or 2 blocks. And I put rebar out of my footings into my walls, not those "key"s in the footing that lots of people do.
what is the average cost per sq ft to build a home using icf?
I completely agreed with you. Former builder
Have you worked with Nudura?
Such a gorgeous book - each shed is unique and inspiring, and I love all the tiny details Kotite features to help readers imagine how to create their own She Sheds ua-cam.com/users/postUgkxe9yi0sulKgsp0VJJCIrLWWkvVqcU7LFR . The feature on Dinah's Rustic Retreat is like something from a fairy tale. It's really inspiring to see how creative all these ordinary people are in making beautiful and useful spaces on a modest scale.
I am a contractor in the extreme northeast, Maine coast! I've built all of these examples. I don't agree with your assessment of sips or traditional framing. the cost of spray foam in traditional framing is the cost of sip panels. Labor installing sips is one third that of traditional framing. Traditional framing failures in the Northeast are more common than you admit (or have knowledge of) pink insulation and traditional framing is a recipe for rot and mold, as well as air infiltration issues. I have never built a Bensonwood house...I have sworn to never build traditional again, but I WOULD do a Bensonwood house. building sip homes I have built panel over frame and have built hybrid "48 on center framing construction. I HAVE experienced the air leak problem...it's called "tea kettling" when the moist hot air leaks out the house looks like it a steaming tea kettle from the outside. THIS IS SUPER DESTRUCTIVE! I am a super fan of your show and your experience, your humility is a perfect example of how contractors should address their mistakes. You are an example for all of us. I am super interested in using the spray on vapor barriers you have highlighted on your show. They would be an excellent compliment to sip panel construction. I wish I could express myself better than leaving this comment. Anyway thank you for your show. also I buy my sips from "foam laminates of Vermont"
Great follow up info agree about traditional. Matt is supporting the old while advertising the "new!" ICF are so much better than traditional on so many levels in every climate. Sips are awesome seen them when I was in Europe. They are far more advanced than in the US and maintain temps at awesome efficiencies. But again thanks for your insights. America has to move away from this planned obsolescence. It's defeating and cost are to high for us working class people...
I agree with your assessment. I have built with all three as well, building predominantly with SIPs for the last 15 years. I haven’t done a stick frame in that same amount of time other than the garage here and there. I would never go back to the technology of the 1800’s (stick framing) We we planning to do a couple passive houses this year with SIPs which should help immensity the wall assembly. I only use Extreme Panel Technologies. I would love to see some of your projects.
@@mikedandar1171 Why is the cost so much lower in Europe compared to America for Sips?
Musa Alkhadim I haven’t looked at European prices. How much lower are you seeing?
SIP is an interesting and useful construction method. However, the possibility of leakage between segments on an exterior wall will always be an issue. If you look around the world, you’ll see structures built of cement based materials and they are literally hundreds of years old, having survived the rages of weather, war, and misuse by mankind. So, having said that, what is your hesitation to attempt construction of a solid concrete structure with insulation inside and outside? If your fears are labor costs, I can show you ways to build that will save you at least 1/2 that cost! This savings combined with the non-need for insulation materials (which by the way, are susceptible to moisture degradation when not completely protected from the elements), and a additional back-end future savings for the consumer in utility and home maintenance costs, makes it almost a no-brainer! What is not possible to demonstrate to the potential buyer is the experience of living in a home where dust is rare, every room is the same temperature, no exterior noise is heard, wind damage is nil, the air is clean, plumbing is so simple it’s almost pathetic, electrical costs are less, A/C and heat equipment costs are cut by 2/3 ( a big issue in extra warm or cold climates), home insurance is lower, and the list goes on and on. I will NEVER live in anything but a ICF house. It has literally saved me thousands of dollars.
Great video Matt, very informative. I feel like I have been doing exactly what you mentioned by applying the pros of the other systems to traditional framing. I am doing my apprenticeship through a carpentry outfit in central BC Canada. We specialize in building energy efficient houses, as well as pride ourselves in building the first “Net Zero Ready” houses in BC. This house has and icf foundation, with traditional framing components throughout the rest of the house. Our exterior walls are made of 2x6 walls with blown insulation. On the exterior side we used a foam product called halo exterior that was 2” thick, and interra on the inside that is 1.5” thick. The entire house is heated solely by a heated concrete slab in the basement and main floor. Much like the SIP’s product most of our houses are pre assembled in a factory and arrive in panels that we set on site.
We have also done a prairie wall system that we hand framed. It consists of two 2x4 walls spaced 2” apart with the studs offset to eachother and tied together at the top with plywood giving us a total of 9” of Blown insulation. I believe that with this house in particular we used a special vapour barrier paint instead of poly of the interior side. I’d love to hear your thoughts Matt, take care!
Speaking as an architect, I feel like I should get an AIA continuing education credit after watching this video.
Just need some catered panera bread sandwiches and a sign in sheet.
have you tried that before? just asking
At least a USGBCI CEU credit?
It feels like society is shifting more and more towards informal systems of education. We as a populace are more knowledgeable than ever before. Yet because the knowledge wasn't obtained through the means of the conventional educational system, there is no official accreditation to signal that we possess it.
true - i feel like I read a commercial after the average AIA CEC
Thank you Matt for being on the forefront of leading the way to building smarter and better.
Great presentation, as always! Just some personal observations and added info on the SIPS. I am a timber framer so I use SIPS above grade for most of my builds, and conventional foundation or ICF below grade. Some projects will be ICF to the top of the exterior walls, with timber frame trusses for the roof structure, and SIPS panels for the roof enclosure.
1) One of the most common concerns I hear from the trades about SIPS is that the electrician expects the wiring to be difficult or restrictive. (And the sheetrock installers and plumbers have concerns about the timber frame, but that's another subject.) There are a few types of SIPS, and they are good for different situations. EPS (white polystyrene) and XPS (extruded polystyrene - pink board) SIPS are glued up from flat sheets, and the way the layers are built leaves a void or chase in known position within the panel, generally at 2 ft intervals. So the easiest electrical layout is to place outlets and switches at these locations. The first time is tricky, but it gets pretty easy to router the box opening and fish the Romex through the panels. You can also easily router to a point not where the chase is, as long as the cuts you make are not more than about 1/3 of the panel size in either dimension so as not to lose the panel's structural capacity. BUT when you use SIPS on a timber frame, they are *not* acting as a load-bearing structural wall to support vertical load -- the timber frame does that. They are acting as a shear wall, so in fact only a fraction of the SIPS shear capacity is being used. That means that, as long as engineering OKs the location, you might even be able to cut straight across a panel without compromising anything. We sometimes specify non-structural SIPS (maybe they're IPS?) for timber frames, where there's OSB on one side and a finish surface like sheetrock or pre-installed T&G on the other.
Another alternative is to use polyurethane foamed SIPS, less common, but they can have the electrical conduit and boxes preinstalled exactly where needed. Again, last-minute changes can be made with a router, if necessary, under some limits. This will work better in jurisdictions (like Chicago) that do not allow Romex and require all wiring to be in conduit. Care has to be taken when connecting panels to the floor plate and to each other that the conduit stubs line up and get properly connected - I like to install a piece of pull-line as I go to make the electrician's job easier.
2) Another point to make is about SIPS thickness, especially for roof eaves. Depending on the type -- EPS, XPS or PU -- achieving the R value for the roof may result in an unpleasantly thick roof eave thickness, especially if it's plumb-cut. To exceed R-49, you need a 12-1/4" EPS panel (and a bit of extra... that's just R-44) OR an 10-1/2" XPS panel OR an 8-1/4" PU panel. Plumb cut, the 12-1/4 and 10-/12" panels can be too thick. It's possible to make these end at the wall plane and build out the eaves with stick framing. It's also possible to order the EPS and XPS SIPS with either voids for, or preinstalled, 2x material lookouts. That's a bit of extra work. While the insulation is not doing any work out there, the PU SIPS can just run out full length past the wall and it's structurally OK for up to 24" and requires some bracing if longer. The tradeoff is the added cost of SIPS material versus the added labor of building the eaves separately.
3) I have done EPS SIPS installations with 4 x 8 blank SIPS panels site cut etc. and while it can be cheaper, and for some hard-to-get-to sites might be the only way to transport the panels there, it is *messy*. I don't think the client appreciates little bits of white styrofoam blowing about the property. It's not like sawdust or other construction debris. So I don't like to do even site-cut window and door openings on large panels anymore. I lean towards having full-sized pre-cut, pre-blocked panels made, even if it means a day or two of crane work or a big telehandler. The interior electrical work-created foam bits are easier to contain and keep clean.
4) You had a presentation about slab versus pier foundations. One low-cost option that is interesting for cold climates is to build a pier foundation on poured concrete piers or helical piles, connected by beams. I have used this with the pier locations also acting as the point load support for the timber frame posts. The exterior SIPS are then acting as simply insulation and shear wall, not bearing wall.
So how does this relate to SIPS? Well, you can span between the lower part of the pier-to-pier beams with SIPS for a sufficient insulation value, with enough space left above for plumbing, electrical etc. A weather-proof, pest-proof panel (e.g. fiber-cement board) is preinstalled on the floor SIPS before they are dropped into place. There is a waterproof, airtight flexible gasket placed on the strips that support the SIPS. And a debris/critter screen may be installed around the perimeter, for example: perforated Corten steel sheet. Far less use of concrete, and no residual humidity issues inside from the concrete slab curing (which is why so many of the concrete slab/basement homes have initial high humidity problems). I'm just starting a project like this in Michigan.
What is the name of your business? I'm in Michigan as well.
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What an insight - thanks for sharing
I’m learning building in Australia and am looking at ways to build a home myself wt new technologies to make it as green as posb
The "SIPS Enclosed" Pier Foundation sounds awesome and would love to hear more about that, or see video/pictures.
I am very intrigued by this process. I'm also in Michigan and planning to build this year. I would love to connect with you somehow and learn more about a timber frame and sip combination.
I replaced the foundation on my 100+ year old house using an ICF with this twist: We formed the walls traditionally with 8 foot vertical 3/4" MDO forms and snap ties, but we put the ICF panels on the inside form only. Then buttoned up the outside panel and pumped in the concrete. The end result was a concrete exterior wall (easy to seal), and 2" of foam and screw strips on the inside.
The inside MDO panels came off clean as new and the exterior panels were scraped clean and re-used. Did about 20 feet of wall at a time, footing first and then the wall, marching the panels around the perimeter and removing old wall as we went. Only had to jack up the house in 20 foot sections (about 1/8" at a time).
End result is a fantastic dry basement with sheetrock on the walls. It's been 20 years now and not a single problem. 55 yards of concrete, 2000 lb of #4 rebar, and roughly half the needed ICF for a complete wall.
Man I love the way you do products overviews it’s helped me so much in my business, because when someone asks what do you recommend I have five different options for them to chose from, thanks once again Matt
I live in a 10" thick SIP house that is 23 years old here in Arizona, absolutely love it. Low ac bill, well sealed, also fiberglass R values drop with temperature, polystyrene and other sip material does not. Desert climate here so no humidity issues. Very quiet inside too. I will say it's so well sealed, CO2 levels and poor air quality can be an issue. I'd recommend builders install a central whole house fan for air quality, fresh air turnover. The previous owners let the roof go bad and it leaked, one wall rotting the inner OSB out, however the repairs were relatively easy to reglue new OSB and sheetrock over. Hanging pictures on exterior walls is super easy. the electrical outlet and lighting placement was not well though out on this construction. I would like to expand the house with an addition but finding a contractor to do it right or even want to is hard. I may have to do it myself.
I built an ICF house 21 years ago and love it. It is amazingly quiet and comfortable.
I bought an iCF house in Montana, and it's amazingly efficient. 3400 square feet of livable space, and our gas bill last February was only $93.
Any downsides or concerns?
I'd love to know more. I building in the spring just west of Missoula. Do you know who the builder was? Any other suggestions you have for this type of building?
@@laurenatkin1366 if you're interested in building an ICF home reply back and I'll get you hooked up with the right product and installers.
Awesome comment! Just moved back home to Montana and live in deer lodge. My wife and I plan on building in about a year or 2, and this is perfect. Leaning hard at the ICF especially now that it’s -15 and -35 wind chill. 👍🏻
Wow that's very impressive, considering montana winters!
As a General years ago, I went through a manufacturer's training and installed a 12' daylight basement foundation with ICF. Beautiful, solid system. A friend contracted in SIP construction company with fab facility that is now a conventional stud-framed panelizing business. I've designed homes in SIP and ICF, one utilized both systems and it is very efficient.
Matt, I have watched you for years now. Going back to this video I was originally looking at doing icf construction on my new home. Was going to use build block. After watching Ryan at R&R builders in Illinois I am considering post frame construction. I have a background in conventional building (stick) but it has been years now. Primary focus is space, energy efficiency, sound proofing, durability and of course cost. Pretty much in that order. I was considering icf roof system as well but being on a small farm space for tractor and track steer and vehicles is important. I want to protect my expensive equipment.
My dad had our family home built out of ICF on Vancouver island about 20 years ago now, it was the first in the area and no builder had done ICF, but he was particular to have it done. Fabulous building.
Hey mate, did a 4000 sqft walkout basement in ICF Foxblock. Loved it! Expensive, but ended up a lovely home. Self taught, did a 52x32 shop 1st to cut my teeth on, I'm not a builder but very mechanical and good with my hands. Engine builder and truck driver by trade. Built said house in Missouri, I was owner builder, did all ICF myself successfully, the now owners love the place!
Love your channel, very informative! Getting ready to build again, some kind of modest shop home on a slab, probably with radiant floor heating. Will continue following, thanks. Wyatt.
Preparing to start a Nudura home North of St. James, MO. Can you share any watch out fors?
I have built 2 ICF homes, and put gauge steel trusses on them (and metal shingles on top of that). You have to be careful with insulation levels in the attic, but free span trusses means you can dry in the structure without putting up interior walls. I've been very happy with it. But if I ever need to change something on an outside wall, Matt is not wrong about the trouble I'm in. Interior sound levels are still very good, as are utility bills (I'm usually at half of what my friends are with wood frame houses). The other thing Matt does not mention is that bricks go very well on the outside of ICFs.
Thank you for this unique and useful dissertation, with pros and cons, of framing methods. The huge warning on the need for waterproofing of traditional framed construction is most appreciated. Countless tutorials teach framing, and installation, and waterproofing, without stressing the fundamental weakness of the traditional framing paradigm, itself. That is, a traditional framed house hides a lot of sins, but they can accumulate to "get you"!
I wish I would have found your channel 6 years ago when I built my house. So much great info!
I built my home with Zip insulated walls, Zip roof deck, Advantech flooring. I also used Aero Barrier for air sealing. Added extra earthquake tie downs. I feel I have the best built to last home in my community.
Glad you mention +Joe Lstiburek, I can never understand his talks until you have reviewed them. Looking forward to viewing the videos you mention 18:02 Many many thanks to all involved
78yr old miner. Went to a mining show in Vegas years ago. They had a display using aggregate mixes with foam. Great strength and insulation. Would work great for footings and walls.
Speaking as someone curious about building with zero experience, this was very informational. I really appreciate your video!
Super informative!
Thank you for the in-depth explanation, exploring both pros and cons without bias. Subscribed!
The 1st type of house you talked about, the concrete/Styrofoam.. The home I lived in during my childhood back in the 80s was made this way. It was in Melbourne, FL I'm not sure who built it but it was supposed to be an experimental design. The walls were very thick and it had built in shutters and a flat concrete roof. Hurricanes couldn't touch it an=d was easy on the electric bill in the summer. On the down side, we had a fire and because the heat was trapped inside the fire couldn't really spread into the house much but it damaged a lot of stuff inside just due to the heat. However the house survived the fire that would have burnt a normal house to the ground. Ours was plaster/Styrofoam/concrete/Styrofoam/plaster so very thick walls..
So was it less safe in a way?
@@kizk1737 more safe, it seems.
On the downside, it contained a MASSIVE HOUSE FIRE in a single room and turned a perfectly fine TV into molted glass.
@@chat-gpt-bot which is good... no? it's contained in one room versus burning the entire house to the ground?
Use smoke detectors.
My family built an ICF house in Fort Worth. About 4000 sq ft 2 levels and basement. Yep, a basement in Texas. I couldn't have been happier with it. We went with 12" walls in the first and second floors and 18" in the basement. A basement in hot climates is incredible. Even if the AC went out it would stay at 65F all year.
how much was it after all the concrete, icf blocks, and all that fun stuff?
Could you share who your builder was?
Who was the builder and how much per sq. ft.? What type of roof? How much are your utilities? I am in Lewisville, TX so I know the heat here.
Would you please let me know the builder as well? Looking to build in DFW as well. Thanks!
Live in TX and as well as the others here, I'd like to know too please..
Love your videos! they've been very educational and you're a good presenter. Keep up the good work!
Hey Matt. Love, love, love the videos you put up. So much of what you present has gone into my dream house planning checklists. As I settle on final layout and determine my construction method I would love to see an update to this pro/con. Some things to consider to pro/con: 1)installation of utilities. 2)planning for door/windows, 3)interior/exterior finishing, 4)how they lend to particular home designs (modern,colonial,large rooms, etc.) 5)any more intangibles (like you mentioned the sound proofing with ICF). Any other systems to consider? I hear there are a lot of shipping containers sitting around. :)
I am a Registered Designer in New Zealand with 35 Year worth of experience.
I liked your presentation, in that you explain the pros & Cons, you are not just a sponsors salesman. :-)
Hi Matt, I really enjoy watching your videos, my folks used the ICF to build their forever home, as to the roof and joists, it is a one story with a walk out basement, they used I think 8" or 10" steel joists, between floors and for the roof system, you can actually build another whole space in the attic if you wanted to, no cross bracing up there, and its a sealed system home, no opening windows except for two for egress, it uses a fresh air handling system.
This video answered everything I have tried researching for the past week.
I did a load of technical drawings working at an architectural firm for an ICF house a few years ago, it was an interesting project, interestingly enough we used SIPs panels for the roof. I saw you vidio and though that it'd be great to see and it didn't disappoint.
Due to Covid I'll be looking for another job now. I hope that you're all weathering the storm out there.
Great comparison video! I was wondering if you were going to include that "T-Stud " product in there somewhere. I found that insulated stud product to be very interesting when you introduced it back a while ago. Any future videos on that product coming our way? Thanks for all you do.
I build exclusively with ICF in the Southwest. The quite energy efficiency drives my passion for the product. Using a roll on waterproofing below grade termites aren't a issue, bedding a galvanized screen material in the roll on waterproof coating stops all mice,moles and voles. I was a commercial framing contractor for years and hate the new growth lumber we have today because it is weaker with higher percentages of wain compared to what was available in the 1980's. The math on energy is this, a stick frame house will drop 30 degrees in 15 hours with no heat source at 30 degrees F. A ICF house same conditions takes 84 to 96 hours to lose that amount of heat.
Glyn , I am sorry you have found those problems with ICF but it shows you going behind jobs done by non professionals. I have never had one leak or fail.
If you want a house with a custom frameless corner window, use ICF. The ICF will be able to keep the R-value around that window pretty consistan.
Matt,
One other building form I wish you would've included, Monolithic Domes. I'd like to see how they compare to ICF's as both are good for circular wind. Thanks for so many great videos.
I’ve had experience with ICF blocks both Nudura and fox blocks, and I enjoyed both, nudura seemed to have a harder time with the corner blocks blowing out! But both had good and bad things about them but I recommend it for foundations and basements, but I think traditional framing is nice for the rest. The fortyplex appartement we did was all icf 4 stories high and it worked well. Winter building with concrete can be a challenge aswell so pros and cons like u have said!
I've built two large custom homes with ICF, and five apartments out of SIP. I thought they were both brilliant till I built with them, then I thought they were a really bad idea, now I know their place in the toolbox. Personally I'd use ICF for foundations and walls, and use SIP for walls and roofs, but having spent time in water damage, mold and construction defect I'd be very careful about SIP envelope. Either way you build three of them before you can say you're qualified and profitable
Worked on an ICF house years ago. 2.5 million turned into 4 million with all the problems it caused the customer. One of the biggest issues was that the drywallers couldn't mount the drywall in any easy way because the plastic would strip, or be offset, etc so they were drilling hundreds of holes to find those strips. Same with crown mould, no proper way to mount it as well as the walls were terribly wavy.
I love the show especially you highlighting architects and builders around the country.
I've been building with SIPs for nearly 20 years. I've done everything from small vacation cabins to 30,000 sq ft event/religious centers. MM&I Construction and Design does a fantastic job with the design work. Their own brand name panel, Renegade Panels, is by far the most superior panel on the market.
Some of the cons you listed, while are partially true, can be alleviated by using an experienced SIPs builder. We've fixed crushed panels in the field, made electrical chases after drywall was installed, whatever needed to be done in the field. There are a few tricks to the trade, just like with any other building system.
Can you recommend an SIPs builder in the Dominican Republic?
I lived on the east coast of Puerto Rico when class 5 hurricane Hugo went directly over the island. The eye came tight over our house. The house was concrete construction. Throughout the night we had 3 palm trees come crashing onto the house. Nothing happened. If it had been stick construction, the would have destroyed the house.
Great video, great title! This is my favorite kind of Matt Risinger video.
Hi Matt, I have to agree with you when it comes to experience with ICF. In the first house I built I had a minor concrete blow-out and I can assure you, it will never happen again. But I believe it is the best form of construction for a house. You can heat them with very little effort.
I live in Canada and I have built basements with ICF's and loved it. I have framed and added 2" of foil faced foam on the outside of a 2x4 home and it was nice and warm! We built a couple straw bale homes in timberframed structures, they took a while but are reall nice and ogranic looking and very very warm. I have no ICF experience. Minimal log building experience. Even though it is not as sexy as some alternatives, framed homes are my favourite to build. ICF basement with framed home with foam insulation, metal roof, wood or stone siding and drywall inside. Passive solar, wood heating, yeah I like that
Love your show Matt would like to see something on 3D printed homes.
yes!
Matt, your comments on ICF were 100% accurate based on my experience with our previous home that was all ICF. Overall a fantastic house, but your comment on humidity in an ICF house was an insight that I never knew about and completely explained the condensation issue that we did have with the windows during winter. Definitely something to plan for.
Awesome info you’re providing!
I too would like to know the fix, besides maybe having to install a good dehumidifier.
Our house was in floor radiant heat which was amazing for comfort, however because the house was built to be super tight, and energy efficient, the builder made the mistake of thinking that a mini duct air handling system would be adequate. It wasn’t. We had an ERV unit but the mini duct air handling system just couldn’t move an adequate volume of air throughout the house and I suppose it couldn’t dump enough humidity out of the home ( about 5000 sq ft). We definitely needed a larger air handling system for the house. Perhaps we would have also needed an additional dehumidifier built into the system... but I’m not sure. I would definitely allow for that possibility.
We bought the house built already so we were not involved in choices. The other mistake that the builder made was thinking that the home would not require A/C because it was an efficient ICF house. For sure the house has a ton of thermal mass which is great for super comfortable heating, but during summer and being fully exposed to the sun that thermal mass works against you if you don’t have a cooling system. Once the house mass was heated by summer heat it was very tough ( impossible) to cool off by opening windows for ventilation. We added two small mini split A/C units and it turned out that only one was really required to cool the entire house ( although it took excessively long to moderate throughout the house because of the inadequate air handling system.
Bottom line :
include a proper air handling system
an HRV or ERV
I would do central A/C
Possibly add a dehumidifier to the system
It was a great house for all the positive reasons Matt pointed out. In our case the builder misjudged air handling and A/C requirements.
@Star Gazer1212 I honestly don't remember the cost of the AC units... but I think they were a few thousand each (installed CDN$). I don't think that mini splits are the best option though (however it was the only system we could install in our scenario). If possible, I would opt for central air instead. We did not install a dehumidifier at the time, but I do see the value in doing so.
kaveac thanks for the insight, I’m going to school for construction management, we haven’t talked much about ICF construction yet but we’re going through duct work and whatnot right now, so this is something I will definitely bring up to my instructors
Most everything I see in Austin is traditional framing. In Mexico I see a lot of adobe on concrete like you mentioned, it's all storm resistant. I love the idea of ICF, but it puts a lot of people off because it's not common and owners are a little afraid of it because there are so few vendors for it. Great video on all the different types, really enjoyed it.
Great video and explanation of the pros and cons of both building techniques. My dad has recommended sips for years and this provided additional clarification as I look to go from traditional to sip construction.
Jonathan Lipscomb Always listen time your parents. 😂
Used nudura icf for years primarily basements and foundations combined traditional framing on upper stories. Hard to beat traditional framing for adjusting down the road but icf for basements and foundation was nothing less than stellar.
My wife and I built our dream home in Colorado 3 years ago. Contractor I worked with talked my out of modular and into ICF by comparing it to Lego bricks. Pretty simplistic, but I was sold. 3 years later the overall performance of the home is crazy. My winter propane bill runs about $100 per month in a neighborhood with homes spending 6 to 7 times that. We even have trouble using the fireplace because the radiant heat in the floors keeps the house warm. It's not too shabby in the summer. Due to engineering issues there is one area that has an exterior framed wall and in the really cold or hot periods there is a dramatic difference.
100 year old houses with barely any insulation with the old old boilers and radiators will be about half that :)
@@nick21614how is that possible??
I built a house in NW Mt with SIP. That was 30 years ago. It has been, and continues to be amazing. It is very quiet, easy to heat and cool.. The 3200 ft two story went up in four days.
Most ICF forms are treated to prevent termite infestation
I've built some SIPS cabins at a couple of camps and they were insulated so well! Mid summer and the geothermal air conditioners hardly ran at all.
Geothermal HVAC in SIPS cabins? Talk about overkill
@Cbeddoe19 Good luck on that evacuated tube solar heating project! Always happy to see how other people approach problems. I would have gone for solar PV and ductless heat pumps (and maybe some electric storage) and called it a day.
@Cbeddoe19 Raw efficiency is definitely lower with solar PV, but combined with a 200-400% efficient heat pump it's easily competitive with solar thermal, and probably cheaper too.
What conpanycompany did you use?
I am doing an AirBnB Farm Share project with 1000 sf SIP cabins. Could you share the company you used.
?
Love to see something about the rise of post frame construction for homes. Pros/cons, where is it legal, etc.
When I looked into ICF construction several years ago it appeared quite popular at the time to use galvanized steel C beams for the roof joists. The ends get sunk directly into the ICF so that they are anchored into the concrete. You can then build a normal roof on the top, insulate it and sheetrock the underside using screws to attach. I may be oversimplifying, just trying to put it out there.
Helped on a DIY home build a few years back with a family that suffered a house fire. They did the basement themselves and everything was fine framing, putting trusses up but once we went to deck the roof the 4x8 osb wasn't lining up and after much head scratching we figured out the foundation was out of square by almost 3 inches corner to corner. That made for a long day
I have built all three types. When I build my own it will be with ICF.
Mr UA-cam Is ice good if I want a colder house ?
Are you basing your"when i build my owen" decision on location,(harsh inviroment),or the ICF as a physically structure is a superior built???
@@briannalaurel3973 Not OP, but if you can pump the heat out, yes. The concrete keeps the heat out so you need to pump some of the heat out and it will take less energy to do and it will stay cooler.
I like my Craftsman bungalow in Oregon. Re-fitting windows and insulation is pretty straightforward.
Fantastic videos.... we are building a new home, I feel so much smarter as I plan our new home....so much great info.
Dude...your table, though! You should do a build show on that behemoth. As always, great content. I am a little late to this video but your game is TIGHT!
I've had great experience with Insulspan for my SIP panels.
We built a sip home using insulspan 14 years ago in northern Illinois. Great company to work with. I think they were out of Canada if I remember correctly. I wanna say they were just getting started and we were one of the first few builds they did.
@@lumberjaketreeservicellc4002 I've used Insulspan since the mid 90's. They merged or were bought by a company out of Canada which manufactures an ICF block. My local manufacture is based out of Blissfield, Mi.
I’ve had good luck with FISHER’S SIPs out of Louisville, KY
Done ICF basement walls with traditional framing above grade mostly. Blue skin sticks to it nicely, still need the black dimple for protection from the backfill.
I have built with sip wall systems from insulspan out of Blissfield Mi. great company, when you do everything correctly, wonderful product, have no complaints, many happy customers.
I'm an HVAC contractor by day and artist by night and I'm designing for a total demo/rebuild of our house just outside of Washington, DC. The design will be modern with walkable roof and I'm really torn between ICF, SIPS and stick framing. We're working with a design/build firm to make sure its all done right (and not just pretty). High wind events aren't much of an issue but it sure does get hot and sometimes real cold here and moisture is definitely an issue in The Swamp (more than just a catchy political name) so no basement at all. This and the ICF video I saw earlier are really helpful. So many choices and things to consider. Keep up the great work and be safe out there in the field.
Great video and content. Thanks Matt. I recently built and ICF cabin. The cabin is in the mts. in the PNW and had to cary a snow load of 270lbs per SF... crazy!!! As such we had tons of engineering requirements which included lots of rebar, columns, etc. I should have worked more closely with our engineer to spec things out to avoid constant headaches. Our vert rebar from the footer to stem wall was 12"O/C which caused problems with the 6" ICF internal plastic webbing. Const bending bar back and forth for the first four levels of blocks. Secondly, our horizontal rebar was 9"O/C while the ICF block 'Build Block' had lock down holdings for rebar at 16"O/C. This meant we had to slide multiple piece of bar down one end, lay blocks, slide the bar back and tie. A huge pain. I'm not sure what could have been done, but it would have been nice to work more closely with the engineer to use larger bar and less of it. Lesson learned for the next house.
Yes, a year ago was a while for you original input here, but here is something that you and others have learned amid the styro block form media blitz.
Don't use these blocks if you want strength. Monolith pour, then insulate with foam both sides. It is structurally more satisfying, easier, and at the end of cure, during form stripping you will see how good of a perfect job you have right in front of your eyes. Foam forms, you cannot. And you will always wonder, where the segregation occurred. Some day you may want to bolt something to the wall hidden in inside the form, and a surprise awaits: porosity and pebbles.
We moved into our SIP house over two years ago and we are solar powered off grid as well. We live in Northeast Texas. Our SIP construction contractor was Ferrier Custom Homes out of Ft. Worth and the SIP manufacturer was Fischer SIPs out of Kentucky. We have been very happy with the home but our biggest surprise is how much energy is needed to keep the house cool in the Texas heat versus how little energy is needed to keep it warm in the winter. Our walls are 6.5 inches thick and our roof is 11.25 inches thick. We use individual room mini splits for A/C and a wood burning stove for heat. Thanks for the video.
Doesn't sound like a very efficient system, SIP should perform better than that I'd think. What type of floor and foundation do you have?
I plan to build in AAC Hebel concrete, this is best, thermally efficient, acoustic, light weight, durable and fire resistant.
@@mickeybowmeister1944 I must admit that we didn't pursue any options on the concrete foundation. I do notice that in cold and hot weather that the floor (which is just the foundation stained) right along the baseboards is either cooler or warmer that the floor a foot or two farther inside. I had already decided that we are getting thermal bridging all along the exterior wall foundation and I had not even considered it originally.
@@MichaelHoybook that's interesting, my understanding is there's large heat loss and gains through the slab edge which can dramatically reduce the efficiency of even a well insulated house. Normally I would add a 50mm (2") HD foam under the slab for at least 2' and ideally the edge to prevent that thermal bridging. Obviously this is not achieveable on a timber foundation i.e. piles, bearers, joists etc. Either way enjoy your home and Merry Christmas.
@BenjaminFranklin99 What part of the country are you in?
Have you had a blower door test on your home? Perhaps there are some leaks unaccounted for. I also agree that a thermal break would be good for your concrete floor. You could dig around the exterior of your home and install 2” of xps foam at least one foot deep. Here in Minnesota, we usually go down with it one foot and then put horizontally 3 feet. That is equal to a 42” frost footing. Temperature comes under your floor at a 45 degree angle.
enercept was super to work with...highly recommended.
i did first floor utilizing ICF and second floor in SIP....
Dude, great job on this video and I am somehow now interested in more architectural information from you! Liked and Subscribed :)
Matt said get an ICF contractor who've built several houses already. What if you just opened an ICF construction business❓
Here's a start: Build yourself an ICF shed. Then build ICF sheds, toy houses, and garages for family and friends. That should help you build enough experience to not guinea pig your customers.
Or go work for a good ICF contractor for a few years first... Apprenticeship is an amazing thing and it would be tremendously valuable to return to that type of learning system.
@Kenneth Bosley Yes.
Also, build your own business building, and use that as your showpiece as well. Should have mentioned that in the first place.
I can imagine in some places it would be hard to find contractors to work under since it’s a newer concept. Thus bringing your only option to invest in your own projects. I personally like the idea of doing a storage facility since it’s low maintenance.
@Kenneth Bosley
The first house build you sell to your enemy.
The second house build you sell to your friend.
the 3rd house build you keep.
ICF is not a bad idea however:
0:55 the main flaw in ICF system is insolation inside the walls at least that is a substantial problem in the EU and this is the reason why ICF isn't a major player in EU despite the fact that energy efficient houses are by the law a must in the majority of EU countries, not to forget a majority of houses in EU are built as solid houses (bricks & concrete as major material)
In the last years some ICF producer are trying to overcome that problem with different material inside and outside but right now not really successful.
Hi Matt, Probably also worth mentioning Cross Laminated Timber Construction (CLT) which is showing promising results for multi-storey apps. Really great video. Greetings from the UK - TIEMANN & Co Chartered Structural Engineers.
greatnesss!!!
very happy with the topic here!
looking at investing soon here in canada!
Wow! What a great job, thank you so very much for the information.
Matt, you should do a video on AAC block (autoclave aerated concrete) and precast concrete panels
I’ve worked with multiple SIP manufacturers and Extreme Panel out performs them all. Their product quality is top notch and the tolerances are super tight. You can even order them in a boat wrap type material if they are going to be in a wet climate or sitting on the site for an extended period. 10/10 would recommend.
its been many years but we used quite a bit of extreme panel Sips. They were excellent, though personally I would prefer non eps foam, ie closed cell foam.
@@sadydelapp-quiverlifesound9581 Would you mind elaborating on why you have such preference and possibly list pros and cons of each? Thanks much :)
I'm going to look at zip systems for my home remodeling project.
ICF we partnered with another contractor, went to 2 training sessions with Quad lock then started working with A DIY home owner to get him started. Quad lock comes with separate foam panels then the interlocking plastic spacers. MORE labor intensive than other companies but has lots of options . different thickness of foam , ability to cast in a concrete brick ledge, ability to build radius walls. To use an ICF floor and roof system you need scaffolding, form decking, adjustable jacks used to build freeway bridges. and be able to get your jacks out after your pour. We did an addition on a ski lodge in an avalanche zone and the roof had to have 12 inches of reinforced concrete designed so the avalanche could slide over the roof and not put pressure on the back walls.
You can easily mix ICF for exterior walls and roof and drywall for interior walls, making it that much easier for internal remodels
Regarding termites and ICF or any other construction material. Being in the pest control industry in Texas for the past 19 years we learned years ago about Bora-Care products. We used it exclusively on new construction builds due to its long term performance and being a safe natural product as well. Once the treated surface is enclosed and protected from UV light you have a lifetime protection basically. For ICF spray exterior walls two feet up from grade and spray foundation coating surfaces well. As added protection in ICF spray rafter over wall and two foot out from wall, including eave material. Since foundations are exposed retreat that area again per label. Great solve for issue. I am surprised manufacturers of the foam block have not mixed in borates in mixture to resolve the issue. This would be a permanent and effective fix.
Appreciate the insights. There's a company in Texas claiming to be developing SIPS that incorporate waterproofing to take the place of wrapping, and likewise for roofing.
I’ve built houses using Fox Block as you mentioned as well as SIPs. Both systems worked great. I did like the SIPs a little better because it came with the roof panels which really made a big difference. I’d never heard about ICF roofs. The SIPs I used at first were made locally by a friend of mine who had a small manufacturing company. After he moved away I switched to Winter brand panels and they worked well too. Both systems were great but I found that building such airtight houses the owners have ended up using air exchangers.
Build Block has roof ICF panels
Hey, thanks for the info. I'd like to see more on the Sips system and how to waterproof it. 👍
Depends on where your building. A rain screen is the answer but there is always good, better, best
Hi, I’m a representative for a SIPS manufacturer, based in Mexico (2) locations exporting to the US. We are currently building a house in Texas using our SIPS panels. You are absolutely right about OSB plywood sheathing rotting and why we produce with 3/8” fiber cement! Our panels give a close to finished product inside and out. We produce thicknesses 4”, 6”, 8” & 10” and 4’ x 8’, 10’ & 12’. I believe we offer the very best option of those presented. Thanks for the informative video!
Send me contact info?
Can I get your info. I like to talk you about your sips panels base in Mexico.
@@kevinr1577 hi Kevin i didn’t hear from you, if you’d like I can contact you, please provide your contact information and I’ll call you.
@@eissao921 hi Omar, i will happily contact you, if you’d like? Please give me your contact info and I’ll call you. Thanks
@@mkczekala give your info, In will contact you.
I added to my house with ICF for the basement part.
I loved the process.
I built my 1,014 sq. ft. SIP house in SW Texas in 2009, after changing my mind from ICFs when I learned about SIPs. I designed it myself, had the plans drawn by an experienced SIP planner, got my SIPs from SIPS Texas in Kerrville, and used carpenters who'd built one SIP house before. Everything went super smoothly, and I'm very happy with it to this day. I have stone veneer on the exterior. The best part is my electric bills, which run about $400 per YEAR (with electric central AC and gas central heat).
I built our house with ICF's for the foundation and the main floor is a DELTEC. We're sheathed with 5/8" plywood and 1" of foam and the stud bays are filled with 2# closed cell foam. The basement has 2" of foam under the floor and in floor heat. The basement is incredibly easy to heat and very comfortable. It is a walkout with 2 large windows and a patio door. My wife and I stacked the ICF's and we had a contractor place the concrete. He vibrated the concrete as he placed it. I have a friend here that strictly builds with SIPs from Extreme panel. He's fastidious about sealing and always uses an ERV.
adubbelde1 He’s with the best panel manufacturer out there! 😊
I've been in construction 36 years . I worked on an ICF house in 2008 I've been working with ICF ever since. I wouldn't build with any other type of construction can't recommend ICF enough it's brilliant.
Do you consider Adobe or rammed earth versions of ICF? just curious.
@@Krieghandt As a fellow ICF advocate, I see no issues with those other options intrinsically. The final product is of good quality and thermally and air sealing speaking, they do a great job. The issue I have is in their deployment. Labor is a super expensive cost for building in first world nations, so fast and easy assembly is essential for economic viability. In developing nations where concrete is exorbitantly expensive or hard to procure, EPS manufacturers are slim to none, and the final price tag is less than $20k, those other options have great appeal. Any style that utilizes cheap materials in exchange for more labor bodes well for developing and very poorly for developed nations. I believe they have their place for the eccentric in developed regions, and for great use in developing. (And I may be misunderstanding your question: I have never heard of Adobe or rammed earth ICF. An insulated block filled with rammed earth? Seems difficult to employ at best. Filled with Adobe? Eh... I guess I would need to see examples. Both seem a bit like a spotty patchwork idea that doesn't blend the best of both worlds. )
@@joshualruby Adobe comes in preformed 'bricks' and are 'mortared' in place with more adobe. Rammed earth is just that, a form filled with earth (clay) and rammed down. I do see your point about labor costs. DIY adobe is cheap. Rammed earth requires more than a little skill and equipment.
Especially in storm prone area's. If you live in one of these area's you know exactly where they are. I built mine in S. Florida in 2008 and IF I ever have to build another home, it will certainly be ICF. Even if I was in Canada or Alaska. Superior building lasts almost forever. Just look at the house during hurricane Michael @ Mexico Beach in Florida. Almost indestructible and it did not collapse or fail. Minor Damage was incurred, but, your Insurance Company will love you if you build with ICF. They do offer significant discounts for these homes.
The rigid polystyrene board is very flammable and in places where forest fires are a concern this is probably not the best solution.
Hello Matt,I am a ICF contractor as well as framer,General contractor from Red Deer, Alberta ,Canada.As for cost difference, it seems to work out from 3-5% more,for a complete home ,cost wise over a conventional framed home.As for the roof system,it can be either ICF,,Sips or conventional system.Personally,the ICF is my number one choice.Fast,efficient construction with easily addapted changes made on site. and energy efficient.As for remodels, it is actually easier and usually cheaper to create a wall opening in ICF as structural integrity is not a issue.Enjoyed watching your video.
Wish I could afford to have you help in remodeling/ insulating our 100 + year old homestead home in Idaho. Two-story, no insulation, no foundation, and leaning to the North. Must say your program, has become a real education for me. As a 78yr old veteran, I will get it done following information from you.
This is the video I’ve been waiting for. Rebuilding a home in NJ (hoping to salvage foundation) and leaning towards SIPs, but ICF has always intrigued me.
Go with the ICF! It's safe in a natural disaster and very airtight.
ICF for sure is the only way to go.
If your keeping you foundation take into account the additional weight of ICF sips shoulb be close or even less.
Agreed on foundation strength, well really it’s the soil bearing capacity, but if foundation has to be replaced (won’t know until the basement floor comes up if the footing is in decent shape) it’ll be ICF foundation to the first floor deck and either ICF or SIP walls and a SIP roof.
@@brendangalligan I would said exactly what you said a few years back. but with the new products such as zip wall, fluid applied sealants etc I would do traditional with all the latest technology. Watched Pure Life for Living on UA-cam and saw many of the problems of running wires in outside walls of SIPs . Mistakes on SIPs and ICFs are less forgiving. I am doing a gut remodel of a townhouse in OCNJ. What part of Jersey is your house located? Good Luck whatever you choose.
I’m 19, I used ICFs and every time I talk to someone about it they say I don’t know what I’m talking about and that’s not even what they’re called. This makes me feel better. Just because I’m 19 doesn’t mean I haven’t used a product that someone else hasn’t.
Nice. Way to go bro. My father is a general contractor and I convinced him to switch up and we’re starting in Arizona🤟
Would love to see you compare Woodcrete/Durisol/Isotex ICFs to the typical foam products in this session.
Very informative and well-presented. Thank you.
As a home inspector i have used and inspected this product and like it. Also saw how well it held up in OK. City after a tornado.
House or Home which product? He listed three types and many manufacturers
@@billbill8555 ICF mainly. In Oklahoma the ICF choice was Ice Block because it has metal ties but now mainly I see Fox Blocks. Panelization with Helix is where the industry is headed. Here is a great video to demonstrate. ua-cam.com/video/Ban8oq12Gmg/v-deo.html
I feel like the noise aspects of SIP vs. ICF was completely missed here and is definitely important in any dense urban or suburban environment. SIPs pass far more road and aircraft noise vs. traditional framing and rock wool insulation which pass var more vs. ICF. "Comfort" isn't just about temperature and drafts; noise matters, too.
I've build SIP house and added external rock wool insulation - 6 inch Neopor inside SIP + 4 inch rock wool.
From inside covered everything with foamed polyethylene plus drywall on top of it.
No issues with outside noise at all, I can easily miss airplane flying 1 mile above the house (near airport) when all windows and doors are closed.
3:30
@@olehserhiyenko1694 HOw thick are the walls then?
We just completed a timber-framed home built with MURUS SIP panels. The timber frame provider and MURUS are across the road from each other and work closely to make sure everything went together perfectly. I agree, to a point, with some of your cons, however, as with any project, it can be contractor dependent. We fired our's when the shell was complete for a multitude of reasons and finished all the electrical, mechanicals and interior finishes ourselves.
Awesome video! Great explanations of these systems.
As a SIPs builder I try to avoid EPS builds( you can see one in my "House that will Not Burn"vid). I have yet to get a dime from my recommendations But By far the Best SIPs system I use is by ICS SIPs in Colorado. The performance, speed of assembly and design tolerances are spot on. You do have to have your Electrical design well thought out as the boxes and conduit are in place pryor to the foam injection. I am looking forward to a build in Colorado with another Urethane SIPs manufacturer Thermocore from Indiana.
When I see framing jobs that take months till dry-in, the comparison of the week with SIPs is worth it for a lifetime of performance.
Any place you recommend like that in north Texas?
@@kam3410 The good SIPs manufacture in San Marcos went out of business. Low cost labor is tough to compete with and difficult for most builders to justify a shift for better homes. If you want to invest in your home rather than a utility company both of those companies ship nation wide. If you are looking for a builder I have a friend in Oklahoma. If you are interested let me know rather than Bob getting spam.
I've been looking at Thermocore as well. There is a somewhat local (to me) manufacturer in Arlington. My fear with Thermocore is the support if something should go wrong. What are your thoughts regarding mis-cut panels having to ship from out of state?
@@corydamon6526 Most every panel maker expects shipping, be it 20 or 2000 miles. Most makers QC by assembling panels on the floor before they ship. I have had panels that had to be modified in the field. The long wall at the end of my "House that will Not Burn" had to be modified twice. Panels tend to "Grow", more the longer the wall. For that reason I measure often. Corners are where they need to be addressed but are easy to modify.
I have yet had a manufacturing failure That could't be modified in the field.
I would be interested in the Arlington company. The first experience with SIPs was with a North Texas Company called Kingspan back in 2007". If I can help, let me know. Thanks
I checked out their website. I like the one piece corners. Looking to build in western Wyoming
I considered every method that you mentioned but I am in Mongolia so the availability of materials was a factor. What I ended up using was steel Sandwich panels for a quick build, maximum insulation and something I could do myself. I think this might be an underrated and less well-known method of construction. Also, it’s actually quite affordable in Mongolia due to local panel manufacture. I used a 4 x 4 frame similar to barn style and then screwed the panels directly to the posts and beams. It’s only a single story so it wasn’t necessary to create an incredibly strong frame and the panels themselves are very light.
I had the same idea, could you provide any photos of the house?
Hi, I am from Mongolia. I would like to learn more about the house you have built in Mongolia and how it's doing during the winter. Can you connect on social media?
Hey, Matt, could you do a refresher of this video comparing the pros and cons in relation to the cost of lumber prices being so high in 2021? We are looking at ICF for a future home build and trust your opinion. We built a metal frame aluminum siding/spray foam barndo last year, but even the roofing and siding costs are different, now.
I'm my part of the country I'd do ICF. I helped build several ICF homes in high school. It's pretty straightforward. In my area ICF is the way to go. 🌪
My dad built a SIPS house where he lives that is what I do.
I wouldn't use traditional framing unless the other 2 weren't available.