Spray Foam Insulation - The Ugly Truth?
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- Опубліковано 24 січ 2022
- 🔻DIY Spray Foam Insulation ~ Is it a Good Idea?🔻
• DIY Spray Foam Insulat...
Roger explains the pros and cons of having spray foam insulation in your house.
Spray foam insulation explained by the Which? Team.
Also called spray polyurethane foam (SPF), it is an alternative to traditional building insulation.
It's versatile and can be used to insulate your roof, loft, walls and floor, helping to retain warmth and reduce energy costs.
PROS AND CONS
Spray foam insulation offers a number of benefits, such as:
✔ It can be applied in difficult-to-reach areas.
✔ In some cases, it can provide additional soundproofing.
However, there are also some significant drawbacks to consider, such as:
✖ It’s more expensive than other types of insulation.
✖ It needs to be installed by a professional.
✖ It can be difficult to remove once it's been installed.
✖ Potentially reduces ventilation within the roof space, causing humidity and dampness; placing roof timbers at risk of decay.
✖ Harmful fumes are given off during installation.
✖ It shouldn't be used in listed buildings or houses with thatched roofs.
✖ It’s often ugly, messy and can’t be decorated over.
✖ It can affect the value of your property.
✖ It may prevent buyers from getting a mortgage.
We'd strongly advise getting specialist advice from an expert or two in this area and proceeding with caution.
What is spray foam insulation?
Spray foam insulation is a liquid foam that is sprayed into position and sets into an insulating layer.
It can be used to insulate your roof, loft, walls, floors and more. It has been in use for more than 30 years and is now becoming increasingly popular as it’s an effective insulator and can also stop air leakage.
There are two types of spray foam insulation to choose from. Closed-cell spray foam Open-cell spray foam. If spray foam insulation is right for your home and budget, the type you choose will depend on what you want it to do.
If you’re looking to insulate your loft, the Which dedicated guide explains the different types of loft insulation.
🔗 www.which.co.uk/reviews/insul... - Which?
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#SPF #FoamInsulation #RoofInsulation
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Some years ago we added a bathroom in our 180 year old brick farmhouse. When it came to insulation we decided on using spray foam. The chief reason for doing so was the number of rodents in the attic and walls. We were concerned about another space that the mice would have free reign at hence the foam. I did all the spraying myself. I used large kits that came with a 2 part foam in 2 pressurized tanks of chemicals. I suited up in coveralls, gloves, hood, face shield and HALF FACE respirator. The spraying went quite well using 2 kits to complete the job. when I got to the end of the first kit of tanks it spewed gases out without any foam forming. I completed the job with a second kit. To my surprise the house was filled with a fog. Well as it turned out it was only in my corneas. With a trip to the ER I came home with foggy vision and told by the ER doctor to seek specialist help in the morning. To my delight the fog had disappeared and my vision restored. So my advice is to let professionals do the work or use FULL FACE respirators.
The moral of your story is "Never let a DIYer do a professional's job."
That happens to everyone when they first start using it i hated the smell after awhile smells like roasting peanuts we used it for packing and shipping decades ago before it was used as insulation
That is correct full face mask. I use with new charcoal lined filters! You will also learn, the spray foam closed cell, will make the room much quieter, and extremely energy efficient!
@@outlet6989 Ha I worked on a 'professional' crew doing this and the same happened to me. It's a shit line of work, do not suggest it.
Ha I did about 40 tanks, had my house inspected for Voc and other pollutants and guess what. Passed with highest scores. Really need to stop acting like just because you cant do it properly, does not mean others cant.
I work as a carpenter. It scares me how willing we are to fill homes with plastic. This is going to be a recycling and waste nightmare in the future. I hate how much waste building homes produces. Mircoplastics into the environment just from cutting kingspan (no i'm not talking about proper dust extraction on site, where do you think the dust bag goes) let alone dealing with the waste of re-roofing later on down the line. Roger I respect your building skills and knowledge and have learnt a lot from Robin and yourself. What can we do to change the industry for the better?
He hardly mentioned the environmental problem. *Eventually* all that foam is going to end up in landfill or in the environment in some form.
Haha, reading byour comment I thought your best solution would be to use earthbag construction. Then the structure just weathers back to the raw materials (mostly).
Now just convince most people that living in a mud hut is ecosound ;^)
Oh really how about all that black mold on fiber glass insulation?
@@johnpitchlynn9341 9 times out of 10, mold that appears on fiberglass insulation is on the surface vapor barrier, not the interior of the batts. A carpenter myself for over 30 years, this issue of insulation and moisture barriers continues to confound and complicate the building process as often the minutia of building codes has not kept pace with the introduction of new technology resulting in multiple vapor/draft barriers being applied to both the inside and outside (and in between) of walls often creating what can easily become pockets of moisture and, eventually, rot. Sometimes, the old way is better.
What do you have against plastics personally I think they are the way of the future. It's the only sustainable future I see for the planet 3D printing plastic homes that can dissolve over time.
I worked for the man that invented this product. I'm glad you detailed the many possible drawbacks with this material. I was in the manufacturing side but was also required to understand the different applications which required different product mixes.
Personally I have always had concerns with long term degradation and off gassing. Everything breaks down over time.
Also, moisture build up or leaks can be a real problem. Running wires or piping after the initial construction is also a problem.
I think you covered it all quite well.
Btw, this material was discovered by accident. The company was called Flexible Products which specialized in flexable adhesives. The inventor and his brother were experimenting with a new formula for quite a while looking for a stronger, construction type adhesive. One morning they came back after a late night in the lab of what they thought was a failure and this huge foam blob was covering the table they had been using.
Years later, he sold out to DOW chemical and generously paid his long term employees large severance/ profit sharing checks and he retired.
Unfortunately, a short few months later, he passed away at a golf course on Tybee Island.
He was a good, kind, generous man and everytime I see this product, I think about him.
Thanks for your time.
Appreciate the back story, although a sad ending. I've been a bit leery on the use of spray foam as insulation. Heard awhile back that somewhere it was banned for insulation due to being so flammable. Aside from that, my issue with the stuff is with what you mentioned; potential for moisture issues and it seems like a disaster for any future plumbing or electrical work.
@@Mixdplate it's expensive too.
I dunno when this stuff is installed correctly ie air cards closed cell where closed cell is applicable and open cell where applicable can have huge benefits in heat savings and sound insulation. I can see it being a problem when trying to identify a leak in a roof but if you have a leak you have a problem anyway so not the foams fault. It gets installed quite a lot here in Ireland where we have a lot of high winds and cold wet winters and because our construction industry is quite heavily regulated I haven’t heard really any negative things about foam only positive
Hidden destruction when wet wood does not have proper air circulation for drying.
We put in spray foam that was soybean base. Sounds great--renewable, right. What we found is that mice and insects LOVE it. Now we have a constant chewing sound coming from roof and walls.
Put traps out for those things!
This must be a UK issue. No mortgage company in the USA ever asks about spray foam.
Yup. Must be some bad foam installers in the Shire. Because in the US, Foam increases home value instantly and it is actually highly sought after in a home.
I heat over 6k sq ft in harsh New England winters for $500 average per winter. Foam is a no brainer.
@@luckysevenairammo1217 $500 for the winter, Holy Smokes. We rented a 2600 sq ft house in N. Ca. The forced air heating bill was $500 per month.
@@ibberman Yup, 100% fully foamed home, 2,600sf upstairs 2,600sf downstairs including a loft above and part of the basement completely heated space with a 98% efficiency propane forced hot air system. And running a HVR fresh air intake, changes all the air in the house every 24hrs with 3 to 4 percent heat loss. It's absolutely amazing how efficient foam insulation is.
@@luckysevenairammo1217 That my friend, is incredible. What type of foam did you have installed ? Apparently that makes a difference. I'd like to try that in the future. Did you do anything different with the electric wiring that people seem to be concerned about ? Thank's for the insight. 👍
@@luckysevenairammo1217 The problems that the video talks about indicates they are still on the learning curve, they dont yet realize it is a "system", proper design and whole house continuos mechanical ventilation. Also a well maintained roof.
I had spray foam professionally done after a rehab of a 115 year old home. I gutted the attic “apartment”, repaired the weighted window pulls, ran all the electrical and CAT-6, added a proper adjustable vent, then spray foam in the rafters and walls up there, drywall, carpet. It went from the most uncomfortable room in the house to where the kids and I spent most of our time. Also sprayed a barrier around the skirt of the house which was exposed and accessible above the sandstone blocks in the basement. This house is in the southeastern US, where it’s hot and miserable in the summers, and grey and damp in the winters. Spray foam is _the_ best investment in energy savings and comfort I’ve ever made!
Until all your lumber rots out it is. And if you sprayed it on the inside of the roof directly, it will all rot out.
@@dannysdailys your toxic negativity is going to rot your soul Daniel. Becareful ding dong
I do water mitigation in the Southeast. Spray foam is one of the building materials we absolutely hate to come across. It's absolutely terrible to remove, and more often than not the wood is rotting underneath and the homeowner has health issues from breathing in mold spores.
Its a fire hazard, once this stuff is exposed to a heat source it will burn gard and fast and produces toxic smoke, thats why I never recommend it to any of my customers, fire safety is the most important thing
I live in a very cold area (below freezing for many months at a time) and spray foam is very popular due to eliminating drafty gaps. It’s good in new builds with the correct ventilation system for it. Mortgage companies in my country are fine with spray foam, so that must vary by country.
Is that Scotland perhaps?
Spray foam has a higher r factor per inch.
"Mr. Knees:" What you are saying rings reasonable to me. What country are you in and you latitude and altitude if possible.
Roger, I always enjoy your videos, which are packed with information that the normal home owner would know nothing about.
You touch on the matter of the condition of roof rafters that could become saturated if roofing felt breaks down, and it's that which would steer me towards using Celotex or similar.
Now that you've told your viewers how YOU create a warm roof, that's a 100% steer for me!
Thank you. Keep up the good work!
"A professional coming in and spraying the inside of your loft...."
Very optimistic there Roger with the use of the word 'professional'.
@@sounduser Well done you!
I call these wunderkinds FoamBros.
If you're an old movie fan, watch Tin Men
Almost 30 years ago we spray foamed the slate roof of an old stone cottage (inside obviously). This was done directly to the slates. I was worried for a long time about what we had done but here we are 30 years later and it's been absolutely faultless. We haven't even lost a slate off the roof in all that time. Not one. The main roof timbers were left exposed for the cottage look and the foam was hidden with plasterboard so, to the casual observer, it looks like an original ceiling. The cottage is very warm too.
My boss won't even touch a roof if it's been foamed as he says it's not worth the hassle.
@@Ryan-kg2fv that's the kind of thing I worried about. But to be fair, 30 years service has been pretty good value. I was worried that the battens would rot and we'd have no option but to re-roof but we have been fortunate. Would we do it again? Probably not. I'm much better at cutting in insulation now than I was then too 🤓
@@dugbert9 look what i said above please . 30 plus years experience on roofs .
I understand some about if they remove the old roofing that's glued to the foam. Myself I would roof over the old roof.
@@SawmillerSmith most of the time that's not possible. But that's the reason boss won't touch them. Too much hassle stripping them.
I got spray foam installed in my new home ten years ago. It was the open cell type. It’s been great as my utility bills are lower and the house is quiet. Cost was $7000 more than regular blown in cellulose insulation..it has paid for itself and will be a selling point when I come to sell the house. Absolutely no bugs in the house as it is completely sealed. I would do it again with another house.
Same here, 100% agree with you. I would do it again!
I believe open cell is not recommended for roofs in colder climates like the UK. Are you guys in hot climates?
BTW, my home is located in NW Florida. I don’t think that I would add open cell foam to an existing home. I could not be 100% sure about the condition of the roof. This was a new home which also had a synthetic underlayment (Titanium UDL-30) for better water proofing instead of tar paper.
@@eddieduff9740 rubbish the product has been approved and passed every bba test I've been I the industry for years and have yet to find any issues with opencell spray foam as long g as its done properly and almost the relevant tests and checks have been done 1st
@@private8559 only when used in conjunction with an adequate vapor barrier.
I used closed cell in my exterior walls, then batt behind it. Low utility bills. 28 years later still no issues. I'll use it again in my next house.
A well balanced presentation Roger, the biggest issue in our opinion, is when something does go wrong !! it is a nightmare to locate and assess the full extent.
I was a deputy fire chief in my city in South Louisiana (USA). The highest Carbon Monoxide Level issue I had ever come across, was in a renovation house. The house was elevated on piers (about 18", common practice in wet Louisiana), new windows, new doors, spay foam, new sheet rock. Furnace and water heater were not replaced. Fortunately the owners had an alarm system that included a CO detector and the alarm company made contact with the FD. The reading was over 225 ppm on our meter (33 ppm over 8 hours sets an alarm for work environment). Fortunately, no long term effects were had by the occupants. The occupants said "everything was new, had to be a faulty detector". After investigation, it was determined that the renovations were done so well, that a house that was designed, and needed to breath, no longer could. The house was initially built in the mid 1800s. This incident has always stuck in my head, and will never add such measures in a renovation. Just my 2 cents.
You can't build a modern house without modern ventilation. They likely didn't have a functioning HRV or ERV, which is now mandatory in many jurisdictions. Look up passive house standards for air penetration or a couple of Matt Risinger videos.
Needed vent fitting to each room then didn't they
have it done in summer and ventilate well.
A recipe for disaster in timber framed houses! If the CO2 doesn't kill you, the mold will, or if you last long enough the house will collapse on you because of rott.
My house is 150 years, timber framed typical German construction. I renovated for 5 years, no plastics, foam, glue, concrete or vapor barriers. Wood, clay and hemp all the way.
It's such a nice comfort level, everyone staying with us is amazed how well they sleep, especially people with allergies!
If you ever have the chance to stay in a clay house, try it out.
The furnace should have been replaced with a high efficiency model which gets combustion air from the outside, or better yet, a heat pump. Same with water heater. The stove needs a vent to the outside with makeup air, and preferably be electric. An ERV will bring in fresh air while keeping energy efficiency. The dryer also needs makeup air.
We have closed cell foam insulation in our 2200 sq ft two story home. We have Anderson 400 series window with tinted glass. Our house was designed and built to be air tight. The HVAC contractor studied the plants and in concert with the architect they designed a system that includes fresh air make up system that tempers the incoming air by using the exhaust air. All of the parts and materials were available and none had to be “special” ordered of fabricated. Having worked in the home construction industry for most of my life, I believe that spray foam is the best bang for your buck if you look at the entire house holistically and systems vs individual pieces of the system. We heat with natural gas and have central air. We live in the northeast U.S. and we have never paid over $100 per month for our gas and or electric service. While we paid more to build the home, our ROI is occurring within the first six years of our completed date. Thank you.
AMEN
Lucky you; my 1500 sq. ft. all electric home runs up to $ 400. per month. Our supplier is Reliant energy!
I cannot think I could live in airtight house. I have windows open at night (just a bit) even in winter :)
@@dmitripogosian5084 all newer homes have outside air exchangers to bring in fresh air. And thats a horrible idea to let all that cold air with the window open inside for a multitude of reasons. Whoever told you that was a good idea should be slapped across the face twice.
I live in Canada and have an R2000 home (Air tight) which is insulated using Roxal insulation and vapour barrier, Vanee Air Exchangers and sealed windows (triple glazed), skylights that can open up, and proper doors gaskets etc and also pay under $100.00 per month in gas. The exterior is wood coated thin interlocking paneling. Just above the foundation 2" above ground level, the wood framing/studs (2''X6"'s) stick out about 1.5 inches so there is that lip where air can seep in and upward to keep things dry on both side of the vapour barrier. I can fish my walls when needed, pull wires in out or out, work on receptacle boxes and not worry about any foam. Point is YOU DONT NEED TOXIC SPRAY FOAM!
I bought a house that had a sort of sunroom put on as an addition, over a crawlspace. I wanted to convert it into living space by adding a minisplit heat pump, but the floor was cold and drafty. Spraying foam on the underside of the floor solved both problems, keeping it warmer and sealing out all the drafts. I bought a tank of foam spray and it worked very well. You must wear eye protection and have very good ventilation--I had a box fan running on its highest setting blowing in from the entrance of the crawl space the whole time--there's no such thing as too much fresh air.
As an electrician I also always see issues where original cabling hasn’t been designed to surrounded by that extend of thermal insulation, which can lead to over heating of cables and possibly fire.
Also I see it as a nightmare situation if you ever need to make a repair or alteration, to locate or even cut through all the foam to add cabling for new fixtures or fittings.
Personally I believe that of this kind of insulation os going to be used all services should be informed so that it can be taken into consideration during design so that cabling size and maybe a conduit system could be installed to address certain potential issues. All this just means greater cost elsewhere so for me I would always go for modular insulation.
Limiting AC in the walls at headboard level in walls for tinier spaces is also an ignored imperative due to the EMF on your Pineal gland and brain at night which prevents the production of anti-inflammatory Melatonin and the flushing of the lymph fluids properly, negating dreaming which also leads to Attention Deficit, tiredness during the day, and how much outside radiation due to power meters, 5G, etc. Tiny Space compounds the impact due to exposure level but also less heat from DC current in walls and simple to take off the grid. SpaceMagic designs I have used on Tiny Texas Houses which were R&D for salvage building sustainable house proved out the contents of the house and wiring are often the cause of much illness... and as was pointed out, hypoxia is a bigger issue in tight tiny spaces, especially if constructed of outgassing materials that are harmful to health.
Have you seen properly installed wiring with proper overcurrent protection be damaged by over-insulation? I've seen burnt wires in both insulated and non-insulated walls occur from improper/DIY overcurrent protection but not the situation you describe. NEC wire sizing is VERY conservative.
@akita 1973 I took this possibility into account when I built my house. My entire electrical system is in schedule 80 PVC conduit. However, my house was built into a 30ft×60ft metal building. So I don't have ANY of the issues he is describing.
If they wiring was done to code and you DO NOT overload it it will be fine. now I have some tenanants that want to add a AC/fish tank/ tv vidio etc etc into one plug via extcords then complaian the circuit keeps tripping, GEEs really I wonder why?. Long story short if circuits are used as intended there should be no overheating problems. That why we have NEC , I would have no problem sealing my house with foam
Only way in my opinion the only common sense thing to do is use EMT. Then you can pull new wire if needed and also protect from possible fire dangers.
Roger. Totally agree with you. I have a letter in the "professional Builder" February 2020 copy which prompted a discussion that generated support to your conclusion. As a lifetime Carpenter & Joiner I am amazed that people fall for this concept. Fire could be a problem with over heated cables. Electricians I know are not happy with tightly packed insulation, which, even to a non-electrician is blindingly obvious! Another topic Roger you may like to discuss:, the obsession with washing roofs. I won't spoil your thunder!!!
@johnthebrexiter People wash their roofs? Did I get you right? I've never seen this but washing roof for what purpose? Doesn't it rain in your area? I have tried to wash down moss a few times with jetwash while cleaning the guttering - just to stay on top of it, but to no avail! :)
Some people wash their plants in the UK Keeps them shiny.
@@foppo100 This post is a whole new revelation for me. I need to get out more often :) Washing the roof, washing the plants, what comes next?
If I wash my hands, I do myself a service, if I wash my pants I do the world a service, but washing my roof and plants even washing my alloy wheels with a toothbrush are all a step too far! My roof is to keep the elements out: to keep me dry and warm, my plants are natural livng creatures and my alloy wheels have seen better days. I'm not in this world to attend to cleaning roof tiles or plants, not even neighbourhood cats! If I can get the council to clean the pavements once a year, I want a Noble Prize in Communication Skills and Diplomacy but since my council has developed very large death ears, I brush clean the pavement in front of my house once in a while and that's as far as I'm going to go with beautifying the world :)
Prince Charles was telling us he talked to his plants, later transpired the bushes he was attending to aren't his plants, didn't live in his garden - rather visited often by prior arrangement. Then there is this guy lives down the street in a flat at No 10, he was telling us importance of social distancing and observing rules saves lives and all that jazz. Did I go to hospital with covid more than once? No, he did. Did I get caught with my pants down? No, he did. Did I lie to people and their rep to cover it all up? Well, what do you think? Did I lie and lie denying the whole thing until there was indisputable evidence to the contarary and then only then did I admit? No, he did all that. Did I get a ticket for it? No, he did. Do I have 6 publically known children with probably 6 different women, perhaps some married and maybe more still in the closet? I leave this open. Things aren't what people claim them to be - the moral of this imaginary!
@@soundslight7754 An easier way to wash roofs is to apply a solution of copper sulfate to the roofing then wait for the rain to rinse off the dead moss, lichens, etc.
@@billwilson3609 I'll tremember, thanks Bill
I had spray foam installed when I had the house built ten years ago. I was aware that a roof leak could compound things a bit as the foam could retain some moisture. To add an extra measure of protection I specified that a premium quality synthetic roof underpayment be used instead of tar paper. I went with Titanium UDL-30. That’s the sort of thing that is used in Miami where hurricanes are common. This stuff is head and shoulders better than tar paper, but it costs the same price. You might lose all of your shingles in a storm, but your roof still won’t leak. It also does not tear or decay like tar paper. Having done that I did not have to worry about a roof leak with foam installed in my roof. I should also mention that with foam installed in your roof your entire attic space will only be about five degrees cooler or warmer than the ambient air in your home’s living space. That reduces the strain on your hearing and AC system located in your attic space.
Just a heads up, if your shingles were to come off, your roof would definitely still leak because the holes from the nails of the shingles would become uncovered and the water would penetrate to your sheating. I would advise you to climb up on your roof once every year and thoroughly inspect for exposed nails, torn or cracked shingles, and also exposed underlayment to ensure no water enters your roof.
The problem though, is that although your convinced, not all buyers are. Personally, I would not buy a house with it, and im not the only one.
I had that roof membrane used when my house needed a new roof installed. Recently, my house needed to have a four-point inspection. My home insurance company went belly up, and my new one required this. The inspector spent quite some time doing his inspection of the roof. When he finished, he informed me that he noticed that I had that membrane installed and told me that I would get a nice discount. In Florida, you will not even get an insurance policy if your roof is over 25 years old.
You do realize they nail the shingles through the underlayment right?
@@kevin83FL There could be a small amount of leakage around the nail shaft, but the synthetic underlayment is so much stronger and longer lasting than tar paper that it will still be waterproof for the most part. Tar paper absolutely disintegrates after about a month or so in the Florida sun. Synthetic underlayment will last more than a year if exposed. Nothing is perfect, but for the same price as tar paper synthetic underlayment is the way to go these days.
Had my house sprayed a couple years ago. No problem. My utility bill dropped, it's a lot warmer and didn't have to run furnace as much and it's quiet inside 👍
May i ask how long the off gassing took to go, ours was done 18 months ago and can be smelt in some of the bedrooms
@@ashtonwoodturnings225 mine doesn't smell anymore, it probably also depends on the climate. I live in Colorado and it's pretty dry here.
If you have offgassing, the contractor used the incorrect cheap foam. With the proper foam, any odor should have dissipated after the first hour. Or the water blown formulation that has zero offgassing.
when Spray Foam started taking my structural jobs away and customers believed it was a cure all-. a house has to breath to maintain structural integrity over the years.I also learned building material has changed over time.You seal up your home airtight and the air will be toxic from building materials. Now,In New Orleans with high humidity, spray foam was a disaster.The inexperienced contractors were spraying the crawl space under the older homes .Everything completely rotten within mths. This was 20 yrs ago,,I learned if you leave bread in a plastic bag ,it MOLDS,,lol-.,I was telling people this YEARS AGO.,GREAT CONTENT !☆☆☆☆
When you seal a home you get benefits but you have to consider the changes. Sealing means air has to be exchanged and vapour removed by means other than draughts, i.e., the house is no longer a colander. There are many ways to seal a house, spray foam is only one method, and, whatever method is used, the house owner has to plan on handling the moisture. This is best done with heat exchanger units - old and moist air out, fresh air in, and heat exchanged from outgoing air to the incoming air (read this sort of opposite in climates where the outside is hot and humid).
Old homes are leaky and work well enough when you can afford to heat them, or tolerate them unheated. Mould still happens around windows and all the other places which get extra cold due to water condensing. The moisture is worse when people use gas for heating since during natural gas generates a lot of water vapour (two water molecules for every methane molecule).
Blaming moisture on the closed cell foam is stupid. Moisture comes from human activity and the human has to take on the job of removing it.
You missing gaps of information to make your opinion accurate. Its been code now for 30-40 years to have an outside air exchanger in all homes. Thats why they should be as airtight as possible.
Houses do not need to breathe in any method that the builder / engineer does not specify if you build quality homes. Homes don't need to breathe or dry out because you should have properly managed your air and water proofing.
Hi @@wubanga10154 I am hoping someone is keeping count how many times we have travelled this circle.
As I recall we started after a rant about closed cell foam being (maybe) too good and the human activity related water vapour would leave the house feeling damp inside. Better, he said, to do the job "properly" with the multiple layers especially if you do it yourself and pay lots of attention to all the details. Then we pointed out that this would leave the house just as damp inside and the means of sealing the house was not the problem. The building code and common sense all say you have to manage the humidity if you seal the house properly. So this comes down to how people "should have managed [their] air". For what it's worth water proofing has nothing to do with this... that's the outside water getting in.
We are talking about water vapour before it turns into water in the walls.
Adding to the topic I am starting to calculate where in the insulation bat the water vapour will reach its dew point and become water. And this happens inside the bat... it sort of explains why a lot of insulation bats go mouldy.
Who said this was meant to be easy?
I actually experienced an unexpected bathroom issue, where after spray foam, the bathroom began to stink of sewer gas. It turned out that the seal in the house was so good, the vacuum effect you spoke about was in effect, but the bathroom fan was a bit overpowered and it would actually suck an occasional bubble out of the water trap in the toilet whenever the bathroom door was closed. We actually had to keep the bathroom door open to prevent that until we got a less powerful fan.
Won't happen with a properly vented house.
Your bathroom door should not have an air tight seal it's an interior door not an exterior door.
Have a insulated combustion air pot installed in your mech room and you will no longer have this issue. I am a licensed red seal plumber, gasfitter and electrician specializing in controls and heating installations
I have a similar issue in my upstairs toilet and figured it was the bog... thought the air trap in it wasn't working but now I wonder if its a air flow issue :?
@@DJCJ999 Could be that, could also be the amount of water in the bowl is a little too low for the air trap to be working properly (or a combination of the two.
It's interesting hearing about insulation in other countries. Here in Sweden the norm is 25-40 cm insulation in walls and floor and about the double in the roof.
In the humid south of the US, we put the moisture barrier on the outside, under the siding rather than over the studs inside. A popular way to insulate here is called flash & batt. We lightly spray foam to close the air gaps and then fill the cavity with rockwool batts. Very effective
air barrier over exterior sheathing is pretty much the standard now, even in colder climate.
Roger, I did a Reno on a house 170+ yrs old. Much to my amazement the house never was Cladded in any way. Yes the exterior clapboard siding was attached directly to wall studs. Then a layer of bricks were stacked in the cavities (nogging)? Then a generous treatment of lath and plaster. After removing the lath and plaster, rewiring and plumbing, Spray foam was my only hope. The results were amazing, a warm dry house in our very cold Canadian winters. Yes the boys applied that foam at -20c, and yes they knew what they were doing…always a guy monitoring things in the mixing truck.
The exterior siding was the cladding. That was pretty standard right up until World War II so no real surprises there. With wood siding on the outside if you ever have water intrusion it really doesn't have any place to go like it did previously when it could go into the interior and be absorbed in the HVAC. If you seal the outside with an impermeable paint when water gets through it is trapped in the siding and also exposes the framing to that same moisture trapping since there's no house wrap either. I have seen in some Restorations where there is no house wrap and moisture is going to get through because it always does that in some cases insulation is actually left out of those areas to better Aid with communication of that moisture to the interior so that it can migrate out completely.
That's how houses were built back in the day. And that's also a huge theory as to why old houses seemed to not rot out like newer houses. They were so drafty there was never a significant opportunity for moisture to collect and sit.
In your case, your walls could now be rotting from the inside out because you don't have a good moisture control layer on the exterior and now you've provided all sorts of nooks and crannies in the foam for moisture to collect.
The upside though of the cold inland Canadian winters is that they are also ultra-dry which helps a lot in my experience as long as you don't have an indoor humification system driving moisture through the walls to condense on the cold sheathing...
This is a very important video and hope this gets many many more views .... I've had a terrible time remodeling with spray foam and it's a disaster for plumbers and electricians and refinishers ...
Spray lacquer thinner on it it will melt like snow.
Lets keep this video up and running. That stuff will destroy your house.
What insulation would you recommend then? Everywhere Ive looked always says foam is the best.
@@brendakoldyk1647 Oof careful with that. I'd be damned scared to release the chemicals in the spray foam.
Very glad you spoke against recommending DIY! Using a spray gun for any product, whether insulation, paint, primer, or sealant, is as much an art form as it is science. The difference between a pro doing the job and a DIYer may very well be tens of thousands of dollars in future maintenance & repairs.
I'm pretty good with a spray gun and techniques for application, thanks to auto body work, but I don't know squat about what ratio of foam compounds would work best at 0ºC vs 40ºC. That's why we hire pros--they know their craft and they also accept liability for their workmanship and products (if they're worth hiring in the first place).
Spray foam in a steel framed home works out nicely. We built 3 of them, with a wall cavity of 8 3/8" on the exterior walls, heating and cooling the homes was very low cost.
Yeah, but every repair on electrical or plumbing was very expensive...I'd hate to see a water leak with that bullshit in it...
So do you recommend for metal buildings like an outside shop?
I would however I would use conduit@@hiramhaji7813
I have been using spray foam for a 100 years on valves and flanges etc but used it only once in a residential environment. All I would say (through harsh experience), ensure that your substrate, wooden structure is totally 100% dry and moisture free and does not hint of rot/mould or anything. My solum was compromised, thus increased moisture levels in the atmosphere and then by the time I got to it, I had x1 purling and x15 wooden beams to replace in my basement. Cost me thousands to resolve as I had to remove all the contaminated wood, new engineered flooring etc. The foam likely exacerbated the situation but the solum was the primary issue, so not really the foam to blame.
Another lesson learned - a sore one.
You have personally been using spray foam for 100 years?
@@h2wr No, he's either full of it or a time-traveller.
When they did our house, the attic was sprayed foamed directly on to the ceiling drywall and rafters, hence the attic isn't insulated, only the ceiling and walls of the structure. Is working great 11 years in. There is a slight wave in our ceilings but it is unique and it is waves! Likely caused by moisture in the spray foam at application.
I used Icynene in south florida and the insulation properties were amazing. I paid $7500 but I absolutely loved it. During construction, in the south florida summer with the house fully closed and NO air conditioning you could walk inside the house and be cool when you walked in. Sure, you would sweat after 20 minutes inside the house but in a home with no spray foam you could not even walk in! It is simple amazing.
As someone who has been in the foam insulation industry for 15 years, I see all these problems all the time. I do not even touch remodels if the HVAC is not being adjusted properly to figure for proper ventilation. I love foam, but a house needs to be built for foam. I do not typically like using it for remodels, and where we live remodelers are not typically intelligent enough to understand air tightness and moisture control and most foam companies are just as bad. They just know how to paint walls, cabinetry, and flooring. Spraying foam directly against the roof with close cell to water proof is the most ignorant thing I've seen other companies do. The roof is incredibly difficult to remove like you said. I believe that 70% of the foam insulation companies have no idea what they are doing and do not properly get their guys trained. They rely on equipment sensors to tell them if the foam is correct which is often too late. An applicator should be able to see it on the wall instantly and know. I also believe foam is sprayed half as thick as it should be. I sprayed my personal house to and R-42 in foam which was about 11.5 inches. I can run my house on an ERV for over half the year in Texas. I only kick on my air conditioning in the summers and winters at the extreme points.
In my Tiny Texas Houses I use a spray Icycnene foam but use older wood windows which intentionally allow for air flow, being in Texas which is warm most of the year, this works better... giving me a great way to buffer the heat gain, using self-sealing underlayment beneath a metal roof, 6" of open-cell stops all interior heat gain, providing shade, and thus with windows open, even at 107 F I get 80 F interior temp dropped to 76 at the bedside with a small battery-operated fan. Air flow, Venturi effects, insulation, moisture deflection especially in my often 80% humidity, all forms complex factoring that depends on where you are as to which solutions work best. 11 inches of rain in a week here is not common in other places, nor long freezes. Thanks for your very good presentation and view from a place where slate roof is rare.
I made walk in freezers and coolers for years and we never had any sort of water problems. In fact, the water would run off plus the foam was so tight on the metal skin there was no room for water. People also overlook how strong the foam is, having it inside a wall would make it much stronger than fiberglass in the same wall. If you had two walls one with spray in foam and one without, I bet the foam wall could support twice the weight. It's not all bad you just need to let it off-gas before covering it up.
You ever make a walk in cooler out of wood?
If you are relying on the Insulation to Hold Weight, you have already fucked things up beyond repair. What happens when someone decides they want another Outlet? Or if they want to run recessed lights? Where does the Water Go when there is a leak? It has to go somewhere...
There is no reason to have Spray Foam Insulation. It is nothing but a Detriment.
@@justinlast2lastharder749 IDK about your profession or education, but I am a Mechanical Engineer myself. What I can tell you, is that sometimes strenght does not only rely on the material itself, but sometimes how it is supported. Now foam might not have a lot of strength in itself, but it supports the load bearing structure sideways. So it actually helps a great deal with the loads by just fixing the beams in place, which is an enormous factor in load bearing calculations. However, my concern would be the longevity of this support, as foam insulation deteriorates quite quickly. As long as it acts like glue with a structure, it is fine. But it becomes porous and detaches itself quite quickly, and then the benefits are void. I guess what I´m saying is that you´re right, but for the wrong reasons...
I sold foam insulation long ago and I've seen walls buckle and sheetrock had to be replaced. Not a cheap proposition! Need expert installers!
Akk! So much to consider! I'm looking to improve the insulation in my house, but now I really don't know what to do!! Every contractor has a different plan, now I see why. Thanks for this video.
Thank you for finally explaining that. I first heard about this and could not find a clear reasoning for why the banks would have a problem with a more energy efficient structure.
As a roofer spray foam is a nightmare, I do alot of repairs when there's spray foam you can't get the broken tiles out as they are stuck solid ,so I think it's crap
A well used and thin sSlate Rip, sharpened in the tonight places, and slide it ext to the underside of the slate, to cut the foam clear. Keepnthat one for Foam cutting, and Cutting "Roofers Tippex" (Silicone) so you don't break the Slates while trying to remove them. Getting a Slate Rip Thin enough though, does take a lot of years. a good metalworkers could knock something up suitably thin, quite cheaply(a local engineer knocked one up for me, for a few beers in the local, plus a favour if he ever needed a hand with something, I ended up giving him a computer so he could chat to family in Australia (I built Custom Computers as a sideline, and was often asked to dispose of old computers to a good cause). 👍
Yes but why on earth would you spray the underside of the roof instead of the attic floor?
@@That.Guy.
Beats me, but it's not uncommon to come across roofs that have had it done. In the same way, in exposed coastal and inland areas round here, there are roofs with co create on top of the Slates as a "protective coating/glue" to keep the Slates on, which have the unfortunate result of the roofing timbers rotting out - though to be fair, that roof destruction does appear to take several decades for that to happen, but ironically it is in clean air areas, where good Slates, e,g. Pe rhyn and Dinorwig, when removed carefully, are pretty much like new after roughly 400 years, and they can be reused on a new roof, and easily last another 400 years, so it's a sad waste of good Slates for a short term fix. If a poor quality slate from a Teifi Valley Quarry was used on the original roof, with the service life of the original Slate only being in the region of 100 years, a cheap concrete coating to buy a few more decades, could be a bit of a bargain, in comparison. Those poor quality Slates mostly can't even survive a careful removal and you certainly can't reproof with them sadly, which is a bit disappointing for the current occupiers of the property. Thankfully, I was usually able to provide them with economical natural slate alternatives providing attractive roofs, by substitution with slate sizes a bit smaller than the most popular size ranges, with Smaller Thicker Slates delivering a very beautiful roof, and very happy customers appreciating the bargain they had obtained. I used to have a very satisfying job spreading affordable beauty. 🙂👍🇬🇧🏴🇺🇲
@@brownnoise357 Pure BS!
@@bobboscarato1313
Oh a Drive by, probably AI Troll that ant even put a comment in Context as to what the comment even relates to. To what are you referring, as nobody is perfect , all of us get things wrong, so with a comment like that, nothing is provided from which anyone an learn. As a retired Civil and Structural Engineer, QS/Surveyor, Building Materials Importer, exporter, Wholesaler , Retailer, specialising I good quality Natural Slates etc, plus roofer able to do mitred Hips in Natural Slate, and having stripped countless roofs for good quality secondhand Slates able to be reused for long service li es, I've seen pretty much everything that has destroyed roof timbers, walls, roof coverings, you name it. But obviously there is yet more .I am able to learn, and be able to pass on that is useful to others. So please enlighten me, and quit with this non productive Drive by insults Bollox. Right ? If you don't reply properly, then sadly you are just an Asshole . Correct ?🤔
My in-laws did icynene in their walls during a major remodeling about 10 years ago. They did in only in part of the house that had the drywall exposed. It turned out great. There is tremendous difference in comfort between the new and old. They wished they had done more of the house. If you have water entering the structure, foam won’t fix that. You are right you want to get qualified professionals to do this. Do your due diligence and check their past jobs. Done right, this is great.
Cellulose is cheaper and much safer.
Fiberglass dense pack is better than cellulose, unless you live in the midwest
@@beatch42 I wouldn't want fiberglass anywhere near my house where me and my family breathe the air.
@@MikeJones-rk1un but its better to have a science experiment sprayed in that is very rarley ever a perfect mixture. Or cellulose that's a powder filled with carcinogens and chemicals that is easier to come into your home through infiltration than dense pack fiberglass that only has borate added to it? That doesn't sound right 😕 20 to 30% of cellulose isn't even cellulose its additives and newspaper chemicals
@@beatch42 Borax is a naturally occurring substance. By your measure everything is carcinogenic. Sounds like a Californian.
Great to see your channel growing! Your Karndean looselay flooring videos helped me a ton.
Great to hear! Thanks for watching
As always, very clear and cogent arguments for and against. Many thanks, Roger
Love this video! You did an amazing job of explaining spray foam insulation and hashing through some of the issues associated with it. Thanks.
As I said elsewhere, I have about 30 years experience as a timber framer using with SIPs and closed cell polyisocyanurate spray foam insulation systems. I am retired now but I lean more towards dense pack cellulose without an air or vapor barrier/retarder. Finding “craftsman” willing to do it my way is difficult. I am fortunate to have satisfied clients that let me observe what works (and what doesn’t). Some places had blower door tests and thermal imaging to help me monitor our quality control.
So at 66 my wife and I are going to do dense pack cellulose for my “last” place …..ourselves.
We had it done (slate roof, good condition 1950s, closed cell) 1996 and sold in 2018 with no problem - and the roof space was great (no 45C in summer, -10C in winter).
Had the new family home done in 2019 (membrane + concrete tiles, 1980s 'Barret" build, closed cell) done in 2019. No problems since.....the roofers didn't comment / complain when they needed to re-channel the interface into the extension (~1985).
But then we used proper ventilation (open a window occasionally) and bathroom extractor fans.
Great video. Spray foam is fantastic for basement and crawlspace walls and IMO....that's it. Use rockwool bats done properly in the rest of the house. Use R 30 in your flat ceilings and make sure your attic is as close to the outside temp as possible by venting it properly.
Use baffles in your vaulted ceilings with soffit and ridge venting for air flow beneath the roof sheathing.
Some old style things are just better
True honest facts there Roger, a friend of mine actually has a company removing and inspecting this stuff and I’ve occasionally had to go in and construct a Entire new roof due to rot, which 9/10 times the tiles have fouled causing a leak which has gone undetected due to the foam, I’ve also noticed that the elderly seemed to get targeted for this stuff. You and the team keep up the good work 👍💪🏼
What a point that is! Any roof defects from slates,tiles,ridges,felt etc etc will most likely go unnoticed due to creating an internal water tight barrier with the use of the almost artight foam application. Surely the only outcome if there was to be a failure is a rotting roof?
100% right --- they target the older / pensioner type person because they do not know any local builders.
ua-cam.com/video/Hb1SGUgcMvU/v-deo.html
Anyone who puts closed cell onto the underside of a roof deck is a clown.. open cell on a roof deck is fine, water goes through it just as fast as fiberglass warning you of a leak just as well.
Don't knock foam unless it has been improperly installed. The energy it saves is astounding. I heat my 5,000 sf for the same cost as 1,800 sf older houses. It's a no brainer.
@@luckysevenairammo1217 Valid points but even in my dad's house in CT built in 1850 the installers missed loads of spots. Don't know if it is open/closed cell. Does save heat but maybe only about 25% max due to 3 walls having no insulation. Also, in the past installers would fill the attic with foam! That never made much sense to me. Final thought... the real problem is ALL or NOTHING thinking when it comes to solutions. Why not mask off critical areas for the purpose of leak inspection, access to wires, etc Use foam where it makes sense.
The obsession with "saving through efficiency" is perfectly summed up by the use of spray foam on the underside of the roof structure. Personally, I'm happy to sacrifice a little R-value up here in the Adirondack mountains for peace of mind knowing that my rafters and beams aren't being eaten away by unseen collected moisture which could lead to a huge replacement bill down the road. A cold roof with soffits and insulation on the floor instead of the ceiling is the most cost-effective and nearly equally efficient setup where I live.
In the 1980`s as a roofer , new building regs meant we could use new super strong (no more clumsy foot holes in the felt) plastic roofing felt , this of course attracted condensation like nothing else and very quickly caused rot . Pretty sure it was all to save a few quid and whoever was lobbied on the building regs team was asleep on the job..or well paid ! It was banned within 2 years as it would literally rain in your loft in certain conditions !!. Stocks were used illegally for ages too. The building trade is shameless with only a few good eggs imo .
Open cell spray foam sprayed directly onto the underside of the roof deck fully enveloping the rafters is 100% fine and hands down the best insulation available. Being open cell, water runs straight through it just as fast as fiberglass giving you immediate notice of an roof leak. It also slowly breathes not allowing condensation buildup provided your roof is not sealed in airtight on the top via membrane, rubber or completely covered with ice and water shield. There is completely nothing to worry about at all. As long as it is sprayed with open cell. The heating/cooling energy savings with foam vs fiberglass or cellulose is way more efficient and can not be beat. Saves big money.
Built and remolded plenty of houses well into the hundreds, frame to finish and restorations, my favorite. I agree with the spray foam on the rafter. I have never been a fan of it and goes against everything we were told about attic venting. If your ceiling is well insulated and your vents go outside, you should be just fine. If it's a truss roof and you don't go up there then double the layer
@@ericholdsworth6611 I here you, builder for twenty five plus years myself in New England. Initially spray foam went against everything I had been told about "the better a roof breathes, the better roof you have" but as I became familiar with foam tech and have asked hundreds of questions to foam installers and extensively researched it myself. I have learned that spray foam being applied tight to the underside of the roof deck is great way to insulate and is by far the most efficient means of insulating your home. You will then have more attic space and a cleaner attic space with it not being buried by dusty itchy rodent nest insulation, your entire attic will be fully conditioned temp, bug free rodent free mildew/mold free attic space. There can not and will not ever be any condensation against the rafters/trusses or roof sheathing because the foam itself has replaced all of the cold/warm air to cold/warm surface movement, no free air movement equals no condensation period.
The interior of the attic space below the foam can not form condensation either because it will always be the same ambient temperature as the rest of the space, no temperature differential, no condensation. The only real need with foam applied to the underside of the roof deck is to have some form of small air movement in the attic space to prevent any stale/stagnant air from building up in the space. It is as simple as trimming the bottom of the attic door to 3/4" above the floor or drilling a few 1 1/2" holes or cutting a hole and attaching a grille on the attic panel or pull down stair panel.
On the exterior side, normal lapped felt paper under the shingles allows enough air movement around the exterior of the sheathing allowing any surface moisture to dissipate and evaporate from solar warming. I also learned that only open cell foam should be applied to the underside of a roof deck because it still allows for a small amount of breathability and air transfer, soffit, hip, and ridge vent/slots can and imho should still be in place and foamed over because they will still alow for a very small amount of air transfer.
Another often overlooked fact is water can and will pass directly through open cell spray foam instantly warning of a leaky roof where closed cell would hold water without any way of knowing your roof is leaking.
Open cell is great on the underside of a roof deck and I would highly reccomend it to anyone.
@@luckysevenairammo1217 Thanks for that, I to am in New England and this is what I have been told, however is tough because as you know in New England with an older housing stock, those old building breathing properly lasted much longer than the tight wrap we now use. But I agree if you wish to insulate your attic it's by far the best way to go and yes, pest free. Thats a major plus, however I do have issues down the road if a remod happens. I have done work in some areas where a new kitchen happens every 7 years it seems. The money tree neighborhoods of New England There is also the issue when using a complete foam insulation job where the builders skipped the notion of fresh air and the houses became sick houses, like anything else, do your research.
This is one of the best UA-cam channels.👍 Good honest common sense advice. I often wonder how so many home owners manage to keep their investment when they don't follow the basic rules of common sense. " if it ain't broke don't fix it", there are so many companies out there theses days waiting for take your hard earned cash.
I live in hot, humid Florida. I built the house myself, and it's very airtight. I have spray foam (walls and roof) and insulated impacted windows and doors. I added an energy recovery unit for outside air, a high efficient two-speed AC, and a hybrid high-efficiency water heater with a hot water return. My electric bill is around $140 cheaper than my neighbors and their house is a little smaller.
This is the total opposite of anything we’ve ever seen from spray foam here in the south, USA. My house has been insulated with this foam for 20 years and no issues at all other than it cut my power bill down big time. We heat and cool 7,000 square feet for what my buddies heat and cool 1500 to 2000 square feet. It also cuts down on outside noise big time as well. As long as the attic is vented it let’s all the moisture out. As far as mortgage companies here it adds value to the building they’re looking to loan money for.
Yup. I don't know what is going on in the Shire with foam but they seem to have the wrong idea filled with bad mojo. I heat and cool 6k square feet here for the same as a 1k square foot ranch lol. Plus the basement is another 2,400. My home is completely foamed from stem to stern. Full closed cell on the concrete walls in the basement all the way up to 16" thick open cell in the attic directly applied to the underside of the roof deck.
I think the horror stories are coming from closed cell applied to roof decks which wouldn't warn you of a leak, where open cell allows water to run right through warning you of a issue. Another thing is having a tight home without a HVR system or poor ventilation and circulation. That is a must with foam. Other then that it's incredible stuff that makes the neighbors jealous.
Spray Foam insulation is a no brainer here in New England with long nasty winters. I heat over 6k sq feet all winter for around $500 in propane.
This guy already admitted he installs batted insulation 😆
@Josh McEltroy
You both right, but climate is the key difference - you in hot dry southern US, he - in cold damp England, UK. That's all.
He isn't selling anything here and has no axe to grind.
@@soundslight7754 UK gets rain almost non stop from October to May , depending on what part you live in. Heavy rain wind storms in summer also. I've always used foam board for lofts. Easy to cut and glue in leaving timbers exposed.
@@elainekerslake6865 Hi Elaine, I'm a Brit! Yes, there is a storm Dudley in progress right now :)
I came to rescue Roger :)
Sprayed foam fills everywhere, much less lilely to leave gaps and thermal bridges but removal is a pain and costly in case plans change. I'm a fan of PU foams for sticking plasterboards, filling gaps, fitting doors and windows etc.
I have Icynene open cell spray foam insulation under the ground floor suspended floors and in my roof. It is a fire retardant and was professionally installed. it has improved the insulation in the house for a lot less effort and expense than traditional methods. Building societies are lazy - they just rubber stamp a particular factor in a house without making the effort to actually investigate whether there is any sign that the timbers are actually rotting. Open cell foams allow air and moisture to permeate so rot should not be a problem. Having said that, it would be a good idea to treat timbers with anti-rot and anti-woodworm chemicals before spray foam is applied.
Here is the thing, if you have say a 100 year old roof, it is naturally tired, you can fix it here and there and make it water tight but its still old, now try stripping a foam sprayed roof compared to a traditional one, you will weep at the time and effort involved, never mind the mess, I dont blame mortgage companies turning people down, a sprayed roof adds no value to a house but detracts whereas a newly roofed housed definately adds value, I dont believe building societies are lazy, there just covering their end, not only that you cant actually check if you have rot as the water soaks into the rafters and they do rot, I know from experience.
Ok so you have gone for an open cell spray foam. Almost certainly the worst thing you could do. If you have felt under your tiles its 100% a disaster waiting to happen as moisture vapour will pass through it and as the vapour cools down as it gets closer to the outside, condensation will occur in the insulation and on the underside of the felt. If you have a breathable membrane under your tiles maybe you will get away with it but check if the breathable membrane manufacturer will still warrant their product if it has been sprayed with insulation. Closed cell foam would be preferable but I still wouldnt touch it with a barge pole, and as Roger says many mortgage lenders will not consider lending on a house that has it installed. It also isnt great insulation. To meet current standards you need about 150mm of thickness. Usually it's only 50mm at best (equivalent to about 100mm of quilt) so you leave your existing loft insulation in place. Again that's a serious mistake as then you can get condensation in the loft as well unless it still vented at the eaves, in which case the foam between the rafters is doing nothing insulation wise. Total waste of money with the potential to cause serious damage to your property.
@@zedzed1046
You are talking about an exterior roof failure to keep water out and yes it should be removed and repaired. Then a vapor permeable stick down water barrier installed if closed cell foam is to be sprayed to the inside of the roof deck.
Only if it’s painted with fire retardant paint.
I've have only recently started researching ways to insulate in hopes of having my home built, and I must say that this video is beautiful. None of these concerns was mentioned even once in all my past month researching. Thank you good sir! You got a new subscriber!
You need to provide ventilation baffles between the roof decking and the foam or fiberglass insulation to provide a path for moisture to evaporate from under the roof. These baffles need to communicate airflow between the soffits and the roof vents on the roof peak.
Correct
Really interesting video, my concern is enclosing a property with a chemical based thermal envelope and ignoring any potential health issues arising from the vapours coming of these products. I remember the cavity wall insulation debacle some years ago where householders fell ill because of the toxic fumes/vapours building up in the cavities and entering the interior. Adverse health issues through the use of chemicals in a living space can sometimes take a long time to materialise and not fully understood by the purveyors of these products. The building industry is littered with products that have found to be harmful to health and posthumously withdrawn. I personally over past couple years have come to realise that plastic is not a mans best friend anymore.
yes, there were some horror stories when this stuff first came out, but they've worked out the problems and it becomes inert once it's applied. there is absolutely no smell at all even a few hours after the spray foam cures now. I think many of the problems were due to inexperienced, untrained people who were mixing/applying it wrong.
It's a very dangerous proposition; never use foam either in walls, attics or basements. Extremely poisonous!!! Seen effects 40 years ago; yet some cos. are still pushing these products!
@@Synchrimedia it’s not odours we are talking about here my friend, emissions like carbon monoxide don’t smell nor does asbestos both are hazardous and lethal to human health. Asbestos use in construction was only banned as recently as 2000, tradesmen had been using it for a lifetime before and the cancers are only now appearing at an alarming speed. MDF is now another prime suspect which I believe is banned in some Scandinavian countries and so it goes on.
I've been a remodel carpenter for twenty years and think we all would be better off in mud huts 🛖
Bob Boscarto...
Yes. And those Model A Ford's are a crash hazard.
I wall never own a car of any kind because if them.
Here's 1 problem with spray foam in attics...If you have plumbing vents that go through the roof then you have a rubber boot around it on top of your roof to keep water from coming in. That boot usually dry rots, cracks & shrinks allowing a small amount of water to make inside the attic where the foam absorbs it. This grows a small amount of mold & algae. This will attract the outdoor roaches nicknamed "water bugs" or "palmetto bugs"...(they're roaches). The exterminator will not be able to stop the roach problem so if you've noticed this I recommend inspecting your rubber boots around the plumbing vents.
But that is only with open cell ? Closed cell does not absorb the water correct ?
@@itscard0man Great question but I don't know the answer.
Have a roofer replace the boots every 3 years to be on the safe side! Or you may do it yourself if you're no afraid or heights!
They have preformed foam vent inserts that go in before the spray. It allows for a half inch gap between the roof and the insulation. It vents open on the top and the bottom and allows for borescope inspection with the foam in place.
True I am an architect. We only will spray foam in the attic if the continuous 1” baffle from the soffit to the ridge vent. This allows drying of the back side of the roof deck. If any moisture from the house of from outside on the roof. Just use closed cell insulation filled full. It’s the most efficient. (R per inch) You will need like an R-49, so most likely will require furring out the rafters to create thicker rafter space.
I was on a commercial job once, a remodel of a school, they were spraying foam in the wall cavities and I was installing seismic anchors in the upper crawl space from posts to beams of the concrete roof structure, anyways I went home and turned on the news and that building was on fire..............turns out the fireproof foam, was conductive while wet and sparked a huge fire!
Moved from a doorman building in NYC to Chicago and gut-rehab two adjacent buildings into a live/work space. We used spray foam throughout the project (7000sq ft). I'm continually amazed at how small our heating and cooling costs are. Here in the US there spray foam insulation is sought after.
Great video. I'm in exactly the situation you've mentioned. Selling my house. But previous owners had spray foam insulation. After our buyers mortgage survey, we lost our buyers. Now in the processes of removing foam, replacing felt, etc. Pretty much new roof.
Many homes are built using 2x6 walls.
One engineer that worked in home construction told me after they used the closed cell,
they come back and fill in with open cell and have had good results.
You could use any number of insulation products for the remaining 3 1/2".
Closed cell foam should be limited to 1 1/2 - 2" thick. It has R6 to 7 per inch.
There are many cases where this has not been heeded and there are odors that linger for months if not longer making a home unlivable. Another reason to use a trained professional.
Open cell has R3 to R4 per inch. 2" Closed cell-R14 plus 3 1/2" open cell-R14 provides R28 total. This is before external sheathings are considered.
I don't think I would consider anything else if building new.
Our converted bungalow had been converted by previous owners with no insulation in the the rafters. In winter it was very cold and in summer, temperatures outside of +25c, resulted in upstairs temperatures of +30c all day and night with no respite. If you put your hands on the ceiling you would feel the heat coming through. Access to the eaves area was like walking into a oven. We had foam insulation retro-fitted via the eaves and some cut holes, and now the the upstairs temperatures are consistent with downstairs only peaking an additional 2 degrees. The foam insulation was the best investment we've made.
HI Roger As a long established spray foam contractor in the midlands i just wanted to thank you for a very balanced and accurate vlog. Spray foam IS looked on in a negative fashion by the mortgage lenders and their valuers. We, as an industry, have tried to have meetings with them to establish exactly what their concerns are, and to address them. ( BBA, Kiwa and Local Authority Building Control Depts are all happy with the product). Alas the 1980s saw a number of less scrupulous installers "sticking slates and tiles on" as you say, Whilst this can work if done correctly, with the correct ventilation, it can also hide a multitude of horrors and even cause them. However foam, when sprayed correctly, with the correct membrane (breather) and or ventilation gaps, then it really can improve the thermal performance and air thightness of our homes, factories and offices. Some people don't realiize that spray foam, is made from the same raw chemicals as PUR (rigid board insulation sheets). Yet we are all happy to fit lots of rigid board insulation into our homes. In terms of thicknesses, Closed cell foam is more or less the same thermal conductivity as the rigid insulation boards, so to meet the same U values we need to spray the same thickness, or a little more, to get the same thermal performance. (open cell needs nearly double the thickness to achieve the same U values). The main advantage, other than speed of installation, is the inherent Air tightness, NO More Gaps, that spray applied foam gives over even the best hand cut rigid insulation. So again i agree with everything you have said. I just wish we could educate the mortgage lenders and valuers, and help to reduce our carbon footprint and heat loss, and save money on ever increasing energy prices by properly insulating our homes. Kind Regards. Peter - Spray Foam Solutions Ltd
So that's why they bring along a two-pound hammer with them. Little old lady, "Why did you put all those large holes in my walls?" Mortgage lender, "Normal inspection procedure, lady."
I had to board out a loft because of this foam. As Roger said, the people buying the house, couldn’t get a mortgage until it had been removed. It was quite a small house , a simple up an over pitched roof. The foam removal company charged £2,500 and wouldn’t touch it until the loft space was boarded, which is understandable. That was another £800 so it can be an expensive business. Good video Roger.
This is the best builders channel by far I have learned so much!
I had spray foam applied directly to the underside of my slate roof years ago, but the wooden beams remain visible. It certainly works as insulation - when it snows the snow lingers on my roof much longer than it does on my neighbours’. As a bonus, the original builders had used a very sandy mortar to bind the slates and it was constantly shedding dirt on everything below. The foam sealed all this in so now I have a clean attic space for storage. Recently, however, I have considered installing solar panels but for slate roofs these require special brackets which, in turn, necessitate removal and replacement of the slates. With foam sticking them all down this will be a problem. If anybody is considering solar panels and foam, I’d suggest get the panels installed first!
They didnt wrap over the studs
Sorry DrSteve, but if you think fitting solar panels to a foam sprayed roof is a problem, just wait til you come to sell your home and discover that no mortgage company will finance your buyer because of the foam. Good luck with that!
@@stuarthorwood2101 Must be a Brit thing because I've never heard of it being a problem in the US.
Solar panels will poison you with emf waves
Now though all that “mortar dandruff” is collecting between the backside of slate tiles and outer surface of to insulation foam, acting like sandpaper between them if there’s even a little flex of / between the two surfaces.
And you’ve lost ability to monitor backside of roof for issues.
One benefit of spray foam which I didn't see/hear mentioned is that a thinner layer of spray foam provides a similar level of insulation to thicker fibreglass insulation.
Missing one thing in the video: health and safety.
There have been several cases where the contractor didn't do the mixing correctly and the spray foam kept on releasing chemicals into the air. The residents became hyper sensitive to urethane and their houses had to be demolished and replaced by a completely new house. Recycling of sprayed building materials is a nightmare as well.
Ran into a similar issue where the spray foam kept off-gassing V.O.C.'s into the living area. Husband got sick and passed away unexpectedly after about a year in the home. Wife kept getting sick and after extensive testing was done the V.O.C's were determined to be causing her issue but were "not" linked to his passing. As the HVAC contractor on the home we installed systems with fresh air, ERV systems, dehumidifiers(in La., very high humidity) and electronic air cleaners.
Glad someone said it... having worked the job, this stuff is NOT something I'd want to be surrounded by in the place where I live. I'll take poor insulation, thanks.
Thank you more need to speak up...I was living naturally even on greenhouses...my dad freaked out and got me a tiny home...was horrified that it was spray foamed being into natural health this extent. And that he didn't consult me...I like fireplaces..but I tried making it work...I had to move out because I wasn't well in there..when I go in as it's used for storage now the foam smell is very strong which I didn't notice when living in it....have known from day 1 I don't even want it for storage...what to do...I tried telling him but "he spent a lot of money on it" but my health lifestyle is priceless.
We built a new house. SIPS construction. Garage was site built traditional framing. Used 2 layers of 3” polyurethane closed cell foam board between the studs. Not only does this increase the strength by 300% the Insulation factor is ridiculous. A walk in commercial freezer uses 2-4” of the same insulation. My neighbor uses twice the energy to heat and their house is less than half as big!
We did it for our 4 walls, definitely saves on Electric bill in heating and cooling. Wish I would have done the roof....
I'm a roofer in Alaska. Since the 1970's onward they kinda went mad foaming everything here with no roof ventilation. I've seen buildings so rotten that the only thing preventing the roof from collapsing was the foam itself. About 20 years ago most of the builders realized that there needs to be an air gap between the foam and the roof to let the condensation evaporate. The other problem with spray foam is that it can kill you because it will be gassing off for months or years if it was a bad product or mixture or for some other reason it cannot cure quickly. Other than that it has maybe the best R-value of any insulation.
So what u use now? Styrofoam blocks?
@@ruairigogan6697 foam board is great on flat roofs. For vaulted ceilings it's more difficult to get a perfect fit between rafters but you can hit the edge where it meets the rafter with spray foam. Full spray foam everywhere is great when done right
The use of "vapour barrier" or rather vapour retarder is recommended for certain climate zones. For attics you need a good ventilation. You have to make sure that moisture in the air is vented out.
A good hardworking, honest man delivering the truth to us. May Allah almighty bless you with good health and long life.
Your correct observation about impermeable membranes is the reason I do not place plastic insulation on the exterior of dwellings. Cold bridging also allows condensation to occur within the un insulated gap behind the plasterboard, which leads to mold growth. Now do a flat roof structure.
Roger, you’re a top man… the videos you post are a great resource! Thank you.
The biggest problem with his argument is that it makes no sense to spray the roof instead of the attic floor. The attic floor is significantly less square footage and therefore half the price and far more practical
Anybody being positive about foam roofs please listen to skilled builder as i have been a roofer all my life 30 plus years . If you do any sort of repair its a nightmare . As its VERY difficult to get slates tiles off to replace . You have to individually cut foam from behind with a reciprocating saw or in my case a cut down wood saw as it has more reach and control . Cheers pete the roofer
Why no under felt or membrane? My foam does not touch the roof slates. I assume you are referring to closed cell foam used as a sticky plaster roof 'repair? Not a great idea, and quite different to the insulating purpose discussed here.
@@safetyladysilver8988 the felt especially the old type bitumen has normally disintegrated with age thats why people normally try the quick fix
@@safetyladysilver8988 and trust me people use it everywhere unless ive imagined it all those years
Always found the best hammer for hacking off the foam was the ones used for cleaning mortar off bricks, allows you to get right in to the lath.
@@zedzed1046 Cool . Last job i did when this foam was involved was rosemary tiles installing a double velux . There was no felt on the roof so once frame was installed you have to put the soakers down each side . The ONLY way it could be done is cutting between each laid tile takes ages a right nightmare
I was in the UK in 1988. While visiting Benson, England I was walking past a break in a hedge and I saw a beautiful timber and stone cottage with a thatched roof. It was small but looked amazing and stout. I asked if she minded me taking photos and she said not at all. Told me it had a dirt floor until her husband was a boy and a floor was put in. I asked her how old it was and she replied, “I don’t rightly know, its been in me husband’s family for over 800 years.”
Pretty sure there was no vapor barriers or spray foam in that cottage. Just timber, stone, thatch and a little lime plaster. It will still be around when all the OSB and plastic houses are long gone.
Nice video! Thanks. Definitely a renovation nightmare. Go with rock wool insulation everyday.
Thanks for your videos. I have this on my house and shop and we have metal roofs this is the best thing ever. But like everything there is some things to improve. The membrane we use in the roof before roofing is self expanding it closes around the nails or screws so even if some holes appear it will take care of that the other stuff just garbage...
This is spot on. The idea that in "theory" spray foam will create an air tight highly insulating barrier is true. In the real word with many many different interfaces of many many building components and materials air tight is effectively impossible. That leaves us with focused air leaks, focused moisture issues, and very difficult to repair rot issues (often in main structural components). The idea of high r value construction and air tight envelopes are good ideas but spray foam is not the way or at least not in its current methodology. We are going to be ripping up more and more structures with wet foam, mold, and rotten wood being the main contents in the dumpster.
You are right on so many counts. If there is only one place for all the airborne moisture to escape it will be a much higher concentration and. like you say, rot can take hold. I think that the foam sometimes shrinks back around the rafters to allow micro leaks.
@@SkillBuilder It does not shrink unless incorrectly applied/off ratio.
Thanks, you did a complete and clear presentation. This was mostly new information to me as I have not heard of a mtg company being concerned about foam unless it is backed on the other side by plastic and no air/vapor can escape. Today it is 109F or about 43C outside and the air temp in my attic is abt 150F, or 65 C. Moisture vapor does not stand a chance in Texas. I am considering spraying the underside of the roof, it might help.
I'm building a garage.
That explained a lot I didn't know about spray foam.
Thanks very much.
In defense of the closed cell. There are some places where it is excellent. We sprayed the crawl space bottom of our floor joists. We had them spray ALL exposed wood (even a thin layer on cheeks and bottom of joists/sill plates) to seal from dirt floor moisture. This saved us doing the laborious encapsulation.... We will always know if there are issues of moisture from above (unlike a roof) .... I should also mention at the same time we did and ABSOLUTE meticulous job of French draining/sealing block from the outside, digging all the way below the footer. Also used 2" foam board from footer all the way up to the sill outside. The exterior block foundation cannot wick from the outside to sill. This killed any moisture migration from the dirt crawl space. I would be leery of doing a roof for ALL of the mentioned reasons.
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I had my attic and crawl space open cell spray foam. It would be 30 degrees outside and my home inside was 60 without using heat. I love it!
60 is way too hot to have a house wtf, even 30 is too hot
@@mryan4452 WTF that's Fahrenheit not Celsius where you at.
@@Retiredmco was just joking, I know your country uses Fahrenheit.
@@mryan4452 okay then.
Excellent video. One other issue with spray foam as I see it if you want / need to run additional wiring in a wall with it you might as well forget it. Just rip off the drywall and remove it.
It is not as hard as some are saying. The wires needs to be 1 1/4 inch from the finish surface but even that is pretty darn easy. If I was remodeling some place I would not consider this to be a big deal. I have a couple to a few decades of experience using SIPs in Montana and I have been able to visit those projects and see what works and what does not. Build tight and ventilate right.
My bank was also one of those that said 'no' to this stuff.
I've noticed that NONE of these companies advertising on Face Book say that people have to check with their mortgage provider first before installing.
When I told them my bank said 'no' they stated they were going to speak to my bank flashing various 'certifications'....of course never heard from them again.
This was a so called 'reputable company'.
I've watched shows where they're applying this stuff and covering pipes and wiring in the walls with it. Should be fun if you ever need to work on that stuff.
@ryan craig
I agree with you, I like the idea of having a wall stud area completely insulated and draft free but for any work in the future it would be extremely difficult.
And when they spray the underside of the rafters and plywood roof sheathing, can you imagine trying to peel a sheet of plywood off the rafters to replace it when re roofing? The way the foam sticks to things I’ll bet it would be a nightmare
I remember back in the family house, the attic was so cold compared to the rest of the house. It only had insulation between the rafters that made the ceilings of the upper floor. The rest was pretty bare and the whole house could get really cold in winter.
@J 2130 It wasn't winter. It's just the UK.
As a general contractor I hated spray insulation and only used it if I could not convince the owner it was a bad idea. It makes a remodel job a nightmare.
If you put your wires in conduit and your plumbing pex pipe inside a poly pipe they are very easy to change out if you have problems if they are encased in concrete, insulation foam or even the ground. Works best if all fixtures are individually plumbed. You can also put all communication cables inside conduit for easy change out.
I had a job spraying this foam when I lived in North Carolina, you have no idea how insanely hot I was wearing that suit in 100 degree heat (I'm English btw)
insulate your suit with foam
Can you imagine trying to trace back a dry-rot outbreak in a house where that had been fitted? The mess would be the stuff of nightmares!
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@BK
He does sound happy...
How about termites
I've foamed two houses. Very happy with both over last 20 years. Happy customer.
Very helpful, I was considering this. Thank you.
we replaced an entire roof because of it spray foam, rafters had been trapped and water got in, of 6"x2" rafters there was only about 1"x1" left of actual solid timber in some of the worst ones. to be honest i think the material itself will be fine, it's more the people who out it in, quite a few cowboys going about offering it. had another one recently, older gentleman who we've done a lot of work for, had been convinced and scare mongered into ripping out all his existing insulation and having spray foam put in. a lot of places around my part of the uk are also bitumen roofing felt so any damp that gets in will wreck havoc
A note about moisture. It's not moisture until it condenses. Otherwise, it's humidity. A humid home is a warm home. Reduce the humidity in the air and the house is cooler. So you want humidity in the cold seasons and not in the warm seasons. Luckily, in the warm seasons, you either open a window or put on the ac to take the humidity from the air.
I put closed cell under my house and is way better than any other insulation. Stops air from coming through the floor also
The solution to moisture coming through the roof into the attic space is a product called Zip Sheating. The zip system if installed correctly creates a water and air barrier on the outside of the roof, all the joints are sealed with a specially formulated tape that is warranted for 30 years. The roofing and wall product is manufactured with the air and water barrier at the factory during manufacturing. It has been around in the US for about a decade and close/open cell foam can be applied directly to the underside. If your applying a new roof this system is worth a serious look, if your building new, it’s a must have.
Great video and food for thought. I don't know how toxic the spray foam is but judging by the full protective gear the guys installing it wear it would seem pretty toxic. The last time I saw anyone in that much protective gear they were dealing with nerve gas, and I wouldn't want that in my house!. The other point is what the hell you do with it when you remove it either because of the inspection problems Roger pointed out, or when the house is demolished / extended. It's a huge volume of stuff to go into land-fill that won't degrade and presumably can't be re-cycled (and that's ALL foam insulation - spay or sheet).
its fucking hellish stuff, useful for small tasks sometimes, but shouldn't be needed in the volume in the home, because who knows what gasses are coming off it while it cures, or when it degrades over time etc.
There have been cases where the owner has had to vacate the house for a week until the vapors have dispersed LOL
The main reason for the gear has to do with the fact that you do not want the stuff on your skin or clothes. It is tenaciously sticky and difficult to remove from everything. So they suit up like Hazmat. The actual respiration filtration isn't anything special - standard organic vapor.
Stuff is gross, but its not nerve gas. And if mixed properly it's not even particularly noxious as opposed to other household materials. But if not mixed properly... can be a real bad day.
I think your concerns about future disposal is fair. Though there are not a lot of building materials these days that are great in that regard. At least with sheet foam it can be reclaimed (assuming it's used in continuous sheets and not cut up into tiny little pieces.
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I would think protection while spraying it is unrelated to health hazards (or otherwise) once it's hardened. Car spray painters have a lot of protection to but that doesn't mean being around and painted car is a health hazards
An underrated aspect of closed cell foams is the rigidity and strength. Especially with the high density foams, it can be incredibly strong, in many cases stronger than the frame itself. Ultimately I think it just makes sense to combine structural and insulative components in things like SIP panels.
My company, based off a recent study, actually does fortifications with closed cell. I haven't seen first hand how much it actually helps, but I've been told it greatly increases the durability of your house in the event of tornados or hurricanes.
@@TheOneTrueNeravarOfOoo not many tornadoes in UK though …
@@terryurquhart2413 it's not destructive strength. it's meant as used in 150 year old houses that have no structure left in the old wood framing. I am under way a major Reno now and can't wait to spray it. the framing was completely encased in concrete and there is zero structure left
Ive been in an attic installing alarm systems that had a closed cell foam as thick as the ceiling rafters. The owner walked around on it like it was concrete. I still stayed on the rafters.
Great informative video.
Thank you from Coburg Oregon, America. I am about to spray foam underneath my place. I enjoyed your video, and have picked up some good tips watching it.