Old 440 Build Diagnosis - What Were They Thinking?
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- Опубліковано 11 чер 2023
- Nick's Garage Gear Shop
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Nick has taken apart more 440's than he can remember. But when he took this one apart, he found something he had never seen before. PLUS some highlights from the BBQ Meet and Greet and Mail Time!
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RV motors were commonly 0.155 down, matter of fact I'm working on one today.
Just found this quote on a Mopar forum discussing a 440 in a 1978 Winnebago RV: "For 78, the 440 was right at 200hp/320ft-lbs. If memory serves, the same year 440-hp was 250hp/350torq. Compression was advertised at 8.2, however real world actual compression was 7.5."
From an old Jegs catalogue...COMP Cams High Energy 252H Hydraulic Flat Tappet Camshaft Lift: .425" /.425" Duration: 252°/252° RPM Range: 800-4800. They no longer stock this cam.
Sounds like an RV cam.
Thanks for the info, Mercmad.
It`s a pooch.
@Sherlock I did the same damn thing!
@@jeffjankiewicz5100 Chevy guy must have built it as a joke!
I pulled one of those out of the 351W in my truck, it got a long block years and years ago and a Comp cams 252H is what the rebuilder used apparently. The thing was gutless even with a aluminum intake, good 4 barrel carb, headers and exhaust. Replaced it with an XE250H and what a difference.
1978 440, advertised compression ratio 8.2; actual compression ratio around 7.5-7.8. No mystery here.
Typical Calif smog motor.
Those were the smog years in all makes.
Volkswagens were required to meet emission specs they were not engineered for. Many people scrapped good cars in frustration that could not pass the smog tests.
Tricked out good VW engines were temporarily installed to pass emissions. Various concoctions were added to fuel tanks for any possible emissions test for improvement.
A Hot Rod Magazine project found bronze valve guides with tighter clearances produced the single most improvement for passing emissions tests.
When we are all flying in Cars like George Jetson this era of Cars will still be King. 1948 through 1988 has the muscle Cars that will live forever and the Music of the same era will be held in the same regard, and alot of this recognition is because of the Nick's of this world 🌎💪🚗
Strange that Nick has built so much engines and have never seen '72 up 440 factory pistons. They are all that way, the true CR deep in sevens even with the steel shim gasket.
Talking about pistons .020- .030" below deck, you are talking about the 440 six pack spec pistons with about 2.06" compression height, distance from the middle of the pin hole to the top of the piston. 2.06" + half of the stroke 1.875" and the factory rod advertised length 6.768" makes 10.703". Factory blueprint deck height is 10.725", which gives Nicks .020-.030" below deck. That's six pack, like TRW or Speed Pro L2355F replacement.
Now, a pre '72 regular 440, they used 1.99" compression height pistons without valve reliefs. That's already .093" below the blueprint deck height, and that's where for example all your factory "magnums" are. They are already below true 9:1 even with the steel shim, like TRW or Speed Pro L2266F.
And then the 440's from '72 on. They have 1.91" compression height. That's about 0.17-0.18" below deck. There is nothing unusual there, that's what they all are from the factory.
Had a great time. Whata party. Great food , great
People, great cars . Saw one of my childhood friends.
Thanks to Nick and the crew
Our pleasure!
Great to hear!
7.5 is common in the late 70s 440s. Mine came from a 77 highway patrol car. Pistons have a .045 dish in them. Was exactly 7.5 with a shim head gasket.
Nick is so grounded and humble. I love listening to him share his car, engine, and life knowledge. A top-notch man in my book.
What a crowd, what a show. Nick's is the best garage in Canada...
Could that guy who built that motor, was thinking "BLOWER MOTOR" ???????
Most Canadians are switch hitters
27:11 I remember the guy who gave you Don's piston and conrod. He gave it and turned around and walked away ! What a guy ! Cheers from New Zealand 🇳🇿
I still say Nick's garage is the best car channel on UA-cam
By far. Gotta have an old patient guy figuring stuff out.
If anyone can do it , Nick would be the one to do it Right the First Time , Kudos .
As a life long Mopar guy, have had many Mopar, and tuned Hemis back in the days. I had so many that I got the Nick name of Billy the Dodge. My good friend was a Chevelle 396 SS 396 owner, and we had many races against each other. Great memories of the late 60's.
Look at all those beautiful cars!! And so many gorgeous colours. Those were the days for great colours. Every kind of colour you could imagine and so bright!! Those were the days my friend. We thought they’d never end. The difference compared to modern cars is amazing.
Couldn't agree more!
Those were the Days. Mary Hopkin. 1968.
George is an Outstanding Cameraman and Editor..... nobody produces better content on UA-cam!
He IS! From hand-helds to the drone.
I especially like the sound effects when setting down packages. Has me laughing every time.
Agreed
From a South Georgia boy,you are a class act Nick.
Rainy day here in Toronto so the whole family gathered around to watch today's episode. Great as always.
The 252 may refer to the duration of the cam at .010 lift and that was milder than a factory HP cam. That was an engine that would have no problem running 85 octane fuel.
That was my first impression as well. Comp Cams 252H. Probably from the early 90s? I had a super mild SBC 383 stroker built by RHS in the mid 90's, it had a 260H cam to work with the emissions/pass emissions. That cam he has there is an RV/towing cam.
It is, their old high energy series, I put a 252H in my 300 six cylinder in the late nineties, it would lug down to 300 rpm and not rattle.
I looked it up summit sells it, it's a .450/450 .250/250 cam according to them
I have a '78 RV 440 that I am putting in my '70 Challenger as a temporary engine until I get my good engine done. I tore the heads off just to verify what the actual deck height actually would be. My pistons are .120 below the deck. I thought that had to be the worst ever until I see this engine with another .053. My good engine will be .005 when it is done but at the speed of machine shops in my area I won't have the block back until the fall. Until then this low compression RV engine will get me to the local cruise nights and painted up with my Edelbrock RPM intake and old Direct Connection chrome valve covers it at least looks the part!
I know the Comp Cams HE 252 was part of the High Energy line that they made in the late '80's and into the '90's. They had numbers from 240 to 270 and that was the advertised duration number. The 252 was considered a stock replacement cam for a low performance engine back in the day. The 260 was an RV cam and the performance cams started with the 268 and then the 270. The 280, 292 and 305 were the Magnum series cams and they all needed converters, compression and ran best with single plane intakes. Now this is across all makes, not just Mopar. As a matter of fact I was racing my '69 GTO from '83 to '92 and using a 292 most of the time but down graded to a 270 when I needed to drive the car everyday as my work car in about 1990. But the Pontiac cams used the exact same specs as small block Chevy cams as did the Olds grinds so I assume the Mopar cams were the same. I eventually switched to an actual Pontiac grind (041 Ram Air IV) and the performance immediately improved. I still own the GTO and it runs in the 11's with that cam but a lot of better parts in other places.
Nick, you are the Best on The Internet. Thank you for showing them how it's done son!
I have a 440 out of a 72 Imperial that I’ve been saving for a build. When I got it years ago, I pulled a head and confirmed that it’s standard bore (with a slight ridge), and had never been opened. I was shocked how far down the hole those factory pistons were compared to a factory Magnum/Commando/TNT 440, but as I recall they were closer to .070 down than .170! I get that trucks, busses, and motorhomes do fine with low compression, though, and I believe Steve Dulcich calculated about 7.5:1 compression on a stock motorhome 440 that he disassembled on Engine Masters. An engine like that may only make 250 horsepower, but it can make that full 250 hp for hours or days on end without any problems.
Nick. You will forget more than we will ever know ! What nice , kind , humble man you are !!
Thanks again Nick, and thanks for welcoming us all to the greatest community on UA-cam! Cheers
Nick was thinking what the heck when he found this 440's pistons so far below the deck He's answered the question to Dan's engines low compression There are big gains to be had here of that there's no question The annual Nick's Garage party was a blast Celebrating the best cars from the past A great atmosphere and the sky was clear For much more you couldn't have asked There's alot of appreciation for Nick improving folks motoring situation and putting right problems that could potentially cause devastation with a detonation You can tell by mail time and the determination Nick shows solving engineering crime Nick's Garage every week it's divine Thanks Nick and George Respect to all the party goers and mail time contributors and a big shout out to all the petrol heads watching from around the world
Hi rod nice review iam jeff from Australia watching from far away nick is fantastic
Great show tonight!!! George, your videography is getting better all the time. Especially liked the overview of the cars that people drove to the BBQ. Really liked that you had Nick in clear focus while the background wasn’t while Nick was thanking all the people who put the event together. Very well done. Nick and George - Thank You!
Glad you enjoyed it.
It's not low Nick, it's ready for boost!! 🐌🐌
Two turbos should see it right!! 😆
Shaun
Modern problems require modern solutions....LOL
The perfect solution.. More boost! 👍
👍Yes sir, the 440 professor is in the house! *Nicks House* Great video!
Thanks 👍 We appreciate you, Major.
Now, that is a Party! The best LIVE car show of 2023 🤪😃👍
We had a blast.
Hi Nick and everyone 😊! Have a Fantastic Blessed day 🙏 😀
Thanks William. You as well.
Thats a guy that stops along the side of the road to get you goin again.youre awesome.
Thanks 👍
Great tear down! I have seen that before. It's actually pretty common on the stock 1977-1978 440 HP engines. They're rated at 7.8:1 compression (blueprint) so you can bet they're well below that. Weird thing was they used that long duration wide lobe center Magnum cam in those HP 440's of that era. No dynamic compression or cylinder pressure and horrible chamber quench. Those engines always ran HOT and were real hard on the exhaust valves. I'd bet that was just a 'stock' rebuild of one of those late model engines or they were trying to save $$$ on cheap jobber pistons. Didn't look like they even painted the engine. Sealed Power (TRW) used to have an L2388 piston that was the low comp. replacement. I believe all those std perf. '72-'78 440's listed the same piston. If I recall the CH or compression dist. was in the 1.926 range. Even those lousy (1970) L2266 pistons which ALL the rebuilders used in the '80's was 1.991. There WAS a special piston just for the '77-'78 440 HP that was LOWER in the deck than the non-HP. The HP was rated at 7.8:1 and the regular 440 was 8.2 or 8:1. Don't know why anyone would ever use those pistons. Had to be some generic non-Mopar machine shop that built it.
That White Lithium grease will NOT dissolve in oil either. Just clumps up and floats around till you drain it. I've seen people do it. A real old timer's trick.
5:27 100% , Nick sounds like a 🤡 being surprised by these pistons. Tens of thousands of 440’s come that way. Anyone with a decent background in 440’s knows this.
I counted 121 cars and 15 bike's my harley was one of them. By far the best event ever just a great time with great
people and great food
The pistons are smogger slugs. They were easier to come by and much cheaper than the correct ones, don't throw them away, find a nice std bore 400 block fit them in that, it will boost the compression and make it run quite well.
This is a common problem with 'rebuilder' pistons and 'rebuilder' gaskets... 0.020" - 0.030" off... however, these pistons are extremely far down, 0.170", indicating WRONG pistons, WRONG rods, and/or WRONG crankshaft! (IF 0.170" is correct)
In this case, next step is check the amount of crankshaft stroke... maybe Chrysler had 'smogger' pistons way lower than anybody else...
MOST early 1970's engines from every company have actual compression ratio in the + 7's + !
Yet manufacturers were still claiming the magic regular gas "8 - 8.5:1"...
Cam spec.s/part number/usage can be closely determined by measuring the lift on the lobes...
Comp still sells 252H12 cams... about 206 degrees duration at .050" lift and on 112 LSA... usually considered a one step up car or 2 steps up truck performance cam giving about 400 - 800 more RPMs than stock and more power and a touch more torque... smooth idle... good MPG... good vacuum for power brakes...
@@BuzzLOLOL bah, it just needs some forced induction ;)
@@throttlebottle5906 - Those low quality pistons won't handle boost long... and will get horrible MPG when not in boost...
@throttlebottle5906 that's what I reckon too mate ! Lol. Cheers from New Zealand 🇳🇿
@@BuzzLOLOL said with "tongue in cheek", when it expels parts everywhere, problem solved.
Wow just Wow Nick what an interesting show this time, that 440 of Dan's is now in the best of hands. Those guy's in the live band look like they are legends in their own right. The cars lined up outside made the street look like your very own classic car show Nick, way cool. George thanks that video was something special.
Maybe for a 671 blower on regular unleaded , the cam should be a special grind also for a blown application.
Nick, back in the day we were taught to smear the heck out of a camshaft with white lithium grease prior to installation. Then prime the oil pump with the distributor removed until it built pressure.
I never had one come back, so it must have worked....
One day while I was out dirt biking I had the unfortunate luck of having a hole burn through the top of the piston. I took it apart and took the small bolt from the license plate and bolted it in the hole. It wouldn't start. I took it apart and using the tinfoil from my cigarettes I constructed a gasket for the bolt. It started and i rode it home about eight miles like that. New piston fixed it. I had one in my shop. 1980's. I've got a million of them Nick😊
Hi Nick.
My name is Jacques Poliquin from Montreal.
I'm the one who offers you Don Garlits piston and connecting rod.
It's was a pleasure to meet you.
The weather the band and hot dogs worth 5 stars.
Thanks for this great day..
Jacques
Thanks so much Jacques. For your visit and your kind gifts. 👍
Glad you had a good time !
I love these tear downs
We're tearing down a Hemi soon!
At least you we’re blessed with good weather ☀️for the car show Nick . MOPAR for life .👍🏻🇦🇺💯⛽️.
.170 is about the difference between compression height of 400 piston vs 440 piston. If it was bored .020, I would say they used some std bore 400 pistons by mistake.
7.5 would be good for a high boost application
Those are some of the Real Muscle cars that I remember and loved the most.
Thanks Nick, looked like a great party, but a long drive for me and my D-100. Central California watching
Awesome show there's no way that 440 would have been able to pull it's self with only 7.5 wow can't wait to hear it run when you are done with it Nick keep them coming and see you Monday
Nick, have you ever run into this: A co-worker heard I wrenched a bit and asked me what would lock a new motor up? It was his first complete build, and all the details sounded right (machining, parts matching, etc.). When he mentioned plastiguage, I asked what were the clearances when you pulled it out? He laughed and said: it's supposed to come out?
Meth Motors Open 24/7 365 We Never Sleep on the Job!!! All guarantees and promises and warranties are good until the tires touch the ground!!! Nick I’ve never seen any engine built like that before what a hack job!!!!
Thanks, Nick for another great episode! My 65 300L had 10.5 to 1 if I remember correctly and I drove it on the street as a cruiser and didn't have too much issue with detonation. 7.5 that's nuts!
Very cool!
7.5 for today’s gas and better road manners
Yes, this is a common problem with 'rebuilder' pistons and 'rebuilder' gaskets... 0.020" - 0.030" off... however, these pistons are extremely far down, 0.170", indicating WRONG pistons, WRONG rods, and/or WRONG crankshaft! (IF 0.170" is correct)
In this case, next step is check the amount of crankshaft stroke... maybe Chrysler had 'smogger' pistons way lower than anybody else... GM used bigger combustion chambers, instead...
MOST early 1970's engines from every company have actual compression ratio in the + 7's + !
Yet manufacturers were still claiming the magic regular gas "8 - 8.5:1"...
Cam spec.s/part number/usage can be closely determined by measuring the lift on the lobes...
Comp still sells 252H12 cams... about 206 degrees duration at .050" lift and on 112 LSA... usually considered a one step up car or 2 steps up truck performance cam giving about 400 - 800 more RPMs than stock and more power and a touch more torque... smooth idle... good MPG... good vacuum for power brakes...
Using old hotter cams from 1960's in newer smog engines with no compression was why 1970's cars got 6 - 10 MPG... they should have dropped back to 1950's cam grinds made for 7's compression ratio, but they wanted to advertise bigger HP numbers and more RPMs from their emissions slug engines...
Looks like everyone had a great time. Great job Nick.
Us included!
18:42 wow that band is great man. That's why the harmonica player drives a mean front engine Ferrari !
So glad to see a shop that has fun and does everything to make the customers happy and does such a awesome job
I never take it for granted that a car with a ‘rebuilt engine’ was done correctly after watching Nick’s videos.
Congratulations Nick. this is your first motorhome 440 .I watch a lot of different yourube channels. yours is one of my favorites. Thank you for all the great work you do.
Wow, thanks!
Always great videos. My only thought on the low deck pistons, and thick head gasket, was to supercharge or turbo charge the engine.
That white car has such a beautiful engine bay. Damn.
Wow 🎉😊 talk about a "big block"party! Holy mackerel what an awesome job and event!👍
Looks like everyone had a great time with all the delicious food and drinks and Wow 😲 talk about an incredible car show!👍😁
I wish I could have been there.
What a spectacular day and blessings!
Talking about coincidence, I lived in Harrison Ohio and I live in Rhode Island right now! If your next mail comes from another state I lived in it'll be a mind blower! Nope,all the best to you and the family!😊
It’s time to get Nick and Don Garlits together on video !!
Giasou Nikola,
Hi George, Manny & the gang, it is late Friday afternoon here in Melbourne, beautiful sunny afternoon. I was out walking the dog & cat yes cat & finally after being in Valiance workshop for 7 years the ultra rare VJ Valiant Hardtop with a 440 Magnum shoe horned into it finally emerged from Valiance Workshop.
Talk about being at the right place @ the right time. Stop Curtis the mechanic & finally cruise in a Aussie Mopar with a 440.
Effortless torque off the line & with 3:23 gears didn’t hang around.
Straight away I thought of you Nick & thinking how impressed you would be seeing a 440 in a Aussie Mopar & with exhaust manifolds NO HEADERS.
All stock nothing fancy & nothing poking out of the bonnet too.
What a party, that was absolutely awesome that you were able to put on such a bash & meet & greet all your customers. I so so wished I could have been there together with Eugene & Tim from Vancouver.
That band was great & the harmonica sounded awesome.
The 440 will be build right it is a given.
You should be on your way to Paros soon, enjoy your break thoroughly deserve it.
Cheers
Louis Kats your number 1 Fan from Melbourne / Australia. 🇦🇺 🇨🇦
Nick. I agree with you about the grease. If after 20 years it's still as white as that, then it's a lithium based grease, not intended for engine assembly. I think the confusion some have is that LUBRIPLATE 105 is a commonly used and accepted engine assembly lube, that also happens to be white, and, it's not a grease. I've used it myself to shelve an engine, coming back to it in maybe a couple of years, not twenty. It's not white anymore. It's "whiteish" almost leaning to a shade of gray. LUBRIPLATE 105 does not have lithium in it.
The only reason I can think of why those pistons were in the 440 was for boost. Its possible the customer may have discussed adding it way back when it was built. I owned an early 80's Ford that had the compression reduced to 7.9:1 and 10 PSI of boost, it ran amazingly well and broke more than one diff with it. The turbo failed and I removed it, the car was almost wouldn't run at such low compression. Just a thought because its hard to believe any engine builder could neglect such a point.
Good a reason as any. Just because it's unusual doesn't mean it's a mistake, the guy might have built it like that deliberately to accommodate boost while still running on pump gas. Makes sense.
George i got to give you that, your camera skill is super awsome bro and Nick's team are the best also... great video... thumb's up as always! 👍
I remember Big Daddy Don Garlits here in Hollywood Florida at Miami Hollywood speedway Park when they would have NHRA avents in the 70es a good man and easy to talk with!
Hello Nick,and all the crew
Howdy John.
I think that those are mid 70’s motor home pistons. They were around 7.8 to 1 with shim head gaskets. Even the stock high compression 440’s were closer to 9.7with factory uncut heads. It’s hard to believe that the engineers couldn’t figure out how poor of an idea it was
The low CR was to allow it to live day-in/day-out pulling heavy loads on junk gas without complaint. The engineers knew what they were doing.
This is a good one Nick!!! I'm thinking that maybe a low-deck (B engine) crankshaft, was used in this raised deck (RB engine) block thus creating a stroke radius of About 3/16" (0.1875") shorter than what the RB crank makes the piston travel... And my guess is, the decks on this block were shaved about 0.015" , at some point, so to avoid detonating on the low quality regular gas in that area it came from, and to avoid having to buy $6+ /gallon premium fuel , they lowered the compression ratio by using a crank with a 3/8" shorter stroke and a thick head gasket.... This way the people who sold this car could claim that it has a 440 Magnum, when it actually has a de-stroked 440 with 40% less power than what it SHOULD have... My opinion, but tell us what You find Nick... What are the casting #'s of that crank? My guess is it came out of a 400, with 3.375" stroke, instead of the RB 3.750" stroke....
That film of the car show and get together was impressive Nick!!!! You might find that your fan - base goes far & wide ... You people at Indy Auto have become quite the entertainers!!!
An Epoch episode Amigo!!!
And that get-together and car show was just AWESOME Nick!!! Wow!!!
They DIDNT use a B crank in an RB block
BECAUSE
B crank main journals are 2 5/8" dia and RB main dia is 2 3/4".
I learn a little something with every show!! Thanks Nick!!!
Don Garlits' rail was named the "Wynnscharger." I built the plastic Revell model (about 50 years ago.)
Dr Nick, with his stethoscope, I rest my case!!, excellent camera work on the party George, cheers.
I sure would love to have been there for that! Perhaps next time. It would be good to meet the one and only Nick Panaritis!
I had a similar situation. Years ago, I had a local machine shop known for quality work rebuild a 1969 440 for me. They did an excellent job with the work, but used the lower compression pistons and thick head gaskets. I was less experienced and didn’t understand that some shops rebuilt these older engines for street driven vehicles with lower compression due to the gasoline available at the time, unless told otherwise. I am now an old man with another 440. It’s from a 1967 Imperial that had 70,000 miles on it, but sadly, was crushed by a falling tree about twelve years ago. It will be built right.
Running behind again , but love seeing Nick trouble shooting a problem. Not sure why no one would not know your specs when building an engine especially when in the High Performance Dept. You got to check ,check ,and recheck ...Attention to detail ...that's one of the many reason Dr.Nick is so very good at what he does , plus a real love for the ol Muscle Car...Take care everyone.
I posted them the same day. The old Comp High Energy series.
Nicks definitely a personable guy never once tried to blow me off and im in your face kinda guy nicks truly a gentalman I'm saddened that this man with one of best channels on youtube doesn't have more subscribers please remember to like and make sure you're subscribed to his channel join in the love fest nicks garage is not only for mopars but other makes as well something for everybody
Thanks for that!
@@NicksGarage if anybody knows how to build 440s it you
@@darrenbrisson4336 Right on bro and agree with your post above too 100 plus percent!!!
Darren, your spot on there mate. Cheers from New Zealand 🇳🇿
Back in 2006 I bought a short block 302 topped with new TFS T/W 190 heads for an admittedly cheap “fire sale” $1000. It was a fresh OEM block, stuffed with used ‘86 HO flattop forged pistons, OE crank rods, pistons AND OG rings, bearings and timing chain…
I used the hard parts, but ran fresh bearings, rings and TC. I flycut the pistons on the exhaust side for a more aggressive cam and the engine runs great to this date. But, who would not replace out of spec wear items before being placed in a fresh block, while topping it with new heads with studs, and fitting ARP rod bolts? 😂
Nick , This is Chuck in Port Orange Fl. Love your show very good info. One subject your mopar viewers may find to be a help is to tell them to check the fuel pump push rod on mopar big blocks over the 50 years of having big block mopars I have had to replace two push rods on two 440s both were worn down about a 1/4 inch and did not feed enough fuel to the carbs. Thanks for what You and the Guys have created . Chuck in Fl. Owner of a 1968 Coronet R/t
The 302's are below the deck for a reason, and that's because of the piston expansion - I get igmos calling me about decking the block to get the pistons flush. Side note, got a 348 in the shop and their pistons are massive.
Dear Nick, I am so glad the 300 Club jacket fits and I hope you enjoy it. Your kindness and devotions to the cars and your viewers is so unique and wonderful. I look forward to coming up to your open house next year. Thank you again for all you do!!
Nick is so cool. He is down to earth and hard working. I wish I had his energy. Keep up the good work
Thanks for yet another GREAT video! Here's a total left field thought about the 440 with the low compression. Maybe it was built with thoughts of running it with a turbocharger. Depending on when it was built they may have looked at 7.5 as being "safe" given how there were fewer controls and such. Just a thought.
Nick, remembering back 50 years ago in high school auto shop we were taught to use lithium grease when assembling a new motor or camshaft. Later I learned that I was supposed to use a assembly lubricant, thank god when we used the lithium grease we never damaged anything.
Hey Nick, how ya doin? Enjoy your channel. That's the old High Energy 252 deg. stick. You remember the 268H High Energy that was popular in the late 70's-80's. Would help some with cylinder pressure with the 7.5 squeeze, but it's like this build was a conspiracy to see how weak you can build a 440. It's the kind of deal somebody would have tried to put in a motor home and run on regular unleaded back in the day. So, I just looked up the rest of the specs: .425" lift, 206 deg @ .050" on a 110 LCA. App reads: Excellent torque & mileage 361-400 2 or 4 barrel-so not even rec for 440. Smooth idle. Light towing. 9.0-1cr. Non HP OE replacement. 625 cfm carb. Operating range 800-4800 RPM. It's the kind of deal where you'd see a nice looking E or B bod at the drags and it runs low 16s at 85 mph and you wonder how could it possibly be so slow-well this is how. I bet if that poor 440 could talk it would say thank you for not making me run with this crap in me! Ha! Have fun fixin 'er up right and thanks for all the cool shows. Don Cann
Hi Nick and I worked for Chrysler Corp as a dealership mechanic for 16 years during the 80's and 90's. The Dodge motorhome 440 were all painted blue, and you were lucky if the engine had 8:1 compression from the factory.
I believe the reasoning with such low compression was to avoid detonation with low octane gas.
I believe the cheapest way to get lower compression was by raising the block decks as opposed to coming up with a new piston. I also remember tearing down a 400 lean burn. That I remember noticing how far down in the bore those pistons were. Like a lot of the stuff back in the 70's I believe the cheapest way to reduce compression was to raise the block decks...
Hi Nick - I've built a lot of Mopar performance motors and I suspect that "what they were thinking" was nothing at all. Probably either a local generic shop or DIY using the cheapest available pistons/other parts. As you noted, using white grease as assembly lube pretty much indicates that whoever did it was not an "engine builder!"
Whats the big issue with the lithium assembly lube?
Possibly a Blower/ turbo piston ratio but should be forged only...
NICK, SAID IM GOING TO BUILD IT MY WAY!!!!!
LOOK OUT YA ALL!!!
Nick:
I understand why you don't recognize the cam number, because it is specifically for hydraulic flat tappets in small block Chevys up to 400CID.
The low compression ratio would indicate that the motor was rebuilt for a power adder application, whether super-charger or turbos.
LOL, love your channel Nick but I can't believe I have torn down more 440s than you!! Over half the 440s I've ever seen/disassembled have .120 or .160+ negative deck! 1971 440s have a dish but are closer to the deck, like a '68-70 piston. A motorhome/industrial dished piston has the -.160+ deck, so 7:1 compression is max! With deck/head milling, thin steel head gaskets and the proper camshaft you can make a 9.5:1 440 with those -.120" (or even -.160+) deck pistons that run pretty good!!
I have never noticed piston depth below the deck. Very interesting!
Wow. The owner never would have been satisfied with the performance of that rebuild. Nick to the rescue!
And a great, stupefying, spectacular, wonderful, out of this world time was had by all. Even from Atlanta, Georgia (USA), all the way to Montreal, Quebec, Canada. Did I say that everybody had a good time as well. Heck, next time, if Atlanta is not too far to drive, then my little town in southwest Colorado isn't too far to drive either.
Come on up and join us. Thanks for watching.
I happened to be looking at an old Comp Cams catalog that I have (2000) and remembered that cam you pulled out. From the catalog It looks like it's a 'High Energy' grind number 252H part number 21-212-4. Specs show 800-4800 operating rpm 252 adv dur int/exh, 206 dur @.050 lift is .425, Centerline 110. It's the smallest hydraulic flat tappet cam they offer, looks like for an RV. The description reads "Excellent torque & mileage for 361, 383-400 (2 or 4 bbl). Smooth idle. Light towing, 9:1 comp. OEM replacement. 625 cfm carb." Hope this helps!
Hey Nick. Look on the block for numbers that could have been added when rebuilt. I have a 440 tucked away that had the same blue paint all over, and had pistons that looked way low, But I never measured them. The pistons had the same 3 on them.
RPM Operating Range: 800-4,800 ; Grind Number: 252H ; Cam Type: Hydraulic Flat Tappet ; Lifter Style: Hydraulic Flat Tappet ; Camshaft Series: High Energy.
That's about normal for all of the Chrysler engines I've had and rebuilt. The original and replacement 440 in my 68 300 were both .170 below. The 318 I put in my Rambler was .080 below deck. My two slant six's, one was .180, the other was .200. Seems fairly normal for Chrysler. Although, I did purchase a Chevy 383 from someone and found they just put stroker pistons on a stock crank. The pistons were 3/8" below the deck! He figured you just have to change the pistons, not the crank and it's a stroker motor.
That cam is a very old model from Comp Cams. Back when compression was low and gas was very bad. The cam was made specifically for low compression engines and if used properly it would barely avoid pinging. They had a 260 and a 268 version also at that time. The 440 most likely is out of an rv as they were notorious for low compression back then.
252H High Energy cam on a 112*LSA, low end torque and smooth idle, high vacuum. Good for 2.76/2.94 gears and a 12" converter. Perfect for those pistons/CR!! LOL
Bought a reman 440 back in 1989 from my lokal performance parts dealer here in Switzerland. Supposed to be remanufactured by Keith Black (if there really was such a thing?) with forged pistons and 10:1 compression for a very decent price.
Put it into my '71 Barracuda and did the brake in. Felt not very powerfull. After break in went on the highway to see what it's got. Accellerated to 120 mph and slowed down. Coolant temp stayed high and after cool down the engine made a knocking sound.
Took the heads of an found several seized pistons and the fact that they were very low in the bore. Checked the casting number of the block, it was a '74 low copression.
The pistons wre correct (forged 10:1) but the block was honed for cast piston clearance...!
The block was machined on the dealers expense and ran great afterwards!
I built a 7.5 to 1 440 with ported heads and a Hughes Whiplash cam. Made 415 hp 465 tq on the dyno. It is possible to still have fun on low compression.
300J club jacket looks good on you Nick ! There won't be many of those around mate. Cheers from New Zealand 🇳🇿
My brother went through this with an rv engine. He decked the block and heads to get the compression up