Angle Shooting On The Tabletop, Strategy Or Cheating?
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- Опубліковано 20 сер 2024
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Arthur, Scott and Andy sit down for a discussion about Angle Shooting. No, not the kind where you sneak a quarter inch of a battle-cannon out from behind cover. We talk the psychological side of "gaming" you opponent and what we think is and isn't fair on the tabletop. Let us know your own thoughts down below!
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It is important to note that attempting to influence the opponent's actions via mind games and misdirection is not only good, but an extremely important part of the game, so long as it is done via gameplay, not via your own communication to them! Threat overload as a strategy is a classic example of this, as the whole point of shoving so many scary things up the board at once is to mess with your opponent's ability to properly assess the threats they are facing and hopefully make a mistake in their response. The "Distraction Carnifex" is another classic example of this. Moving a screening unit up to deliberately bait an opponent into bringing in a reserve unit where you want them, placing a scary melee infantry unit that can advance and charge behind a wall to deliberately threaten a much larger area than they can get to on average because of the mere possibility that they roll high, deploying all your fast units on one flank to give the appearance of an evenly distributed battle line before suddenly moving them all to converge on the other flank. Things like this are all good examples of using gameplay to misdirect and influence your opponent. It would cross the line to actively tell my opponent that the Carnifex is more of a threat than it is, for example, but I would say not so much if this is the impression the opponent gets from the actions I take in game (using extra stratagems to keep it alive when I don't actually care of it gets killed, for example).
Only 25mins in but I have thoughts. The problem with these games at a competitive level is that they are perfect information games. So technically to play at the highest level there should be no time limit and each player can consult the rules fully. Given practically this isn’t done then in the spirit of the game information should be revealed fully by each player in the interest of time saving.
Because of this trust in second hand information one can use it to their advantage. For example specifying certain rules and move distances of a particular unit to direct the attention away from another one.
Bluffing is a part of poker because it is an imperfect information game. But angle shooting is not because it is not a part of the mechanics of the game, which is betting, calling, drawing, etc. in specific orders.
So yes angle shooting should be against competitive rules in tabletop games. If it appears that information provided was false or used to gain advantage.
Totally fair assessment! It is definitely something you don't want to see happen in games as this plays into the Social Contract that we both (both players that is) are agreeing to
Appreciate the feedback and thoughts on this!
I agree for the most part, though I do believe that knowing your rules should play into some degree of skill at the game. Remembering what combos you can create with your units and what you need to do to pull them off is as much skill expression as moving your units safely. Simply put studying up on what is possible and how certain armies play is part of skill, similar to studying someone's opponent in chess, and not knowing about certain information can, and arguably should, make you vulnerable in some ways. I would also say there are obvious limits to that but as a whole, just because a game allows for perfect information doesn't mean both players shouldn't have to put in effort to get it.
That said there's also a related problem in that GW sells the rules, so if you want verify what a unit does, and by extension if your opponent isn't cheating, you have to pay up, pirate, or take your opponent's word for it. Obviously throwing a massive wrench into that philosophy.
So honestly, i think the LSV story explains how this works perfectly, if youre playing a competitive game you cant trust your opponent and should ignore them. You need to play purely off of game rules and stats in competitive. Thats not what you should do with friends or casually, its obviously a lot more fun when you can enjoy your time with your opponent.
Edit: I also wanted to add, LSV specifically built that deck in a way to cause angle shooting type moments, he ran a 1 of a specific card because he didn't like it, but it forced everyone to constantly play around it.
is it okay to have that type of play in tabletop games though?
@chargingfromdeepstrike_studios I don't know if you can say whether it's acceptable or not, unfortunately it's always gonna exist, especially the more competitive you get in games.
21:14 the best games are the games played by intent, it makes the game clean and the actual best player wins.
When I win, as rare as it is, I want to know I beat the player, not the rules.
I was a young warhammer player about 20 years ago and when I asked a guy what a unit did. He was playing the mercenaries army which was like a new thing at the time. He said they are melee specialists, so I flew my sorcerer to their flank and on his turn he right faces and smokes him with this unit of what turned out to be pistoleers. That guy was and probably still is a dick and a liar. I have always remembered it.
Not what i thought the topic was lmao. Thought it was literal like in warhammer 40k where its nearly impossible to actually hide because people can find a stray antenna to "see" an opponents model. I wish GW could say you have to see at least a full extrimity to shoot at something.
One time i was playing someone and they thought the nightbringer was attached to a unit. I felt bad but he never asked and cmon nightbringer is over 6 inches tall. Hahaha.
That’s ANGLE shooting, not ANGLE shooting! (lol)
I believe it is against the spirit of the game. Poor sportsmanship.
Same as lucius below I'm around 25 minutes in and have a view.
It isn't cheating but its dishonest manipulation of the opponent since all information is available from start. An example would be the game airsoft, it's a game built on honesty and people doing the right thing. If people don't it ruins the experience not just for the other player/s but for yourself because YOU know you did something you shouldn't of. That being said if you are willing and happy to win a game while lying and being underhanded to your opponent then so be it but know you are actively damaging your own community instead of ensuring those around you are having a fair and fun experience to keep the passion of your hobby alive.
Got bored with the games before the actual content
Why not fast forward?
@@chargingfromdeepstrike_studios to which point? There are no chapters on the timeline and no timestamps.
We usually use games or hobby progress as ways to lead into episodes, although we can definitely start including chapters on the episodes to ensure listeners can jump into the "meat and potatoes" of the cast.
Appreciate the feedback, hopefully you got a chance to power through and give it a listen
Asking "How deadly is that guy / how easy is that guy to kill?" isn't a valid question. You can give your opponent the unit's stats, but asking them to tell you what they should do is just ASKING to get played by your opponent. Telling your opponent what they should do unprompted is not okay.
Is there harm in it? Is there space in a wargame to have psychological gaming? To try to influence an opponent? Or is that frowned upon?
Why is this even a controversy? Play a real war game like Infinity, where “cutting the pie” is absolutely a thing.
thats not the type of angle shooting the cast is actually about
As far as sharking your opponent by expoliting common tournament shortcuts is bullshit. There are time limits and shortcuts help finish games in time. Exploiting shortcuts undermines the advantages of those shortcuts and makes tournaments go longer and games not finishing.
Which shortcuts are you referring to?
Your "leading armies" your whole goal is to preserve your troops and wipe out the enemies or have them withdraw. Read the Art of War, Angriff by E. Rommel.
As long as your playing properly within the rules and the randomness of dice you're achieving a similat effect of war/ battle minus the true carnage and sacrifice.
Real war sucks though, and its boring too, we aren't trying to replicate that, we are playing with toys. If I want to play a game of deception, there are games for that, things like poker or twilight struggle come to mind.
If it makes the game feel bad, I am not doing it. Warhammer is a complicated game, misrepresenting rules just makes it less enjoyable for everyone.
You may wanna cut down your intro, 30 seconds is way too long.
We are cooking up something fresh for 2024 which will be a little less. Either way, hope you enjoyed the episode