Warhammer 40K - Warhammer Isn't Fun!
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- Опубліковано 20 сер 2024
- Warhammer 40K - Warhammer Isn't Fun!
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Arthur and Bill join me as we have a chat about what makes the game fun, or unfun, for us gamers, and what kind of game appeals to different kinds of gamers.
We also talk about what we can do when we fall out of love with the game, something many of us have struggled with in our hobby careers.
Trident Wargaming a podcast/video series going over multiple systems and sharing our experiences in them. Painting tips and tricks, hobby hacks, tactic talks and sharing the resources in this great hobby - Tabletop Wargaming
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40 K has become unplayable. GW has no idea how to write rules. It’s all about selling models. Cheers to one page rules!
They are a model company first and foremost, the latest codex dropping seem to be toned down compared to previous editions. Might be a better balanced approach and less pushing new models (or we can hope anyways)
what is fun in 40k? after many years i think i cracked it... it's Da Boyz. orkz. U win iz a gud fight! U lose iz a gud fight. Waaagh. in fact i MUST jump into orkz
That is the way, find something that brings joy! WAAAAAAAAGH!
i can 100% lose and have fun
infact almost every time i play i have fun, i play for fun mine and my opponents.
That's a solid way to play!
The most fun I've had in 40k by far is doing this:
Doing whatever I think is fun and rolling with it.
My absolute favorite thing to run atm is Death Korps of Krieg, infantry ONLY.
You can squeeze out 150 bodies + 30 cav in a 2000 point game. Now I know what you're thinking: "I can't get it in under 2000 points, how're you doing this", well here is the party you need to understand:
Turn off your competitive brain. Turn off any sense of self preservation. Embrace the Helldivers 2 mentality, embrace glorious battle in the sense of thousands of flashlights blinding your enemy, as we are running:
6x 20-man squads of DKoK Infantry, each with 2x flamers and 2x meltaguns for 120 infantry
3x 10-man squads of death riders, each ridemaster with 1 plasma pistol
1x Death Korps Marshall
3x DKoK Death Rider Commissars
3x DKoK Death Rider Squadron Commander (each leading a squad)
Now it is at this point you must decide: Full Monkey Brain? Or Not?
Half-baked army:
2x additional Death Korps Marshalls
3x DKoK Command Squads
3x DKoK Heavy Weapon Squads
Or:
Full Monkey Brain:
No additional Marshalls
No Command Squads
4x 20-man Infantry Squads each with 2 Heavy weapon Squads included, each including whichever weapon (Lascannons), with both special weapons members having a Meltagun or Flamer, both sergeants carrying power weapons, because at this point you may have realized that we are NOT keeping these squads in the back. Instead, we are *charging* with these squads, because apparently, currently, taking a heavy weapon squad does not increase the points value of the squad (WHY?) and you get a free lascannon or 2! ;)
If you choose not to do this approach, take 3x 10-man DKoK Grenadier Squads (I know, they're legends), add only 1 heavy weapon squad per, and best get to steppin son because we are CHARGING!!! And I believe there are enough points left over for a spare squad of something.
First list: 1995 pts
Second list: 1990
Third list: should be around 1840 points
The point? There is no point. Just have fun!
(My Space Marines list is literally just: bring as many dreadnoughts as I can fit into the points... Yes I have 6k points in Dreads... Yes I will field them... No I am not kidding, this is how I play.
Modern 40k is a card game with expensive miniatures as avatars, not a wargame. Once you see it...
I have not heard that one before!
@@Trident.wargaming The first thing you'll see with this POV is that almost all the game's interactions take place in the list building phase, or off the table. And then it's about trying to stack buffs and get Gotchas during the game. Movement and positioning are almost trivial to the outcome compared to how you build your deck/army. An inordinate amount of strategic and tactical information from the table conditions are mostly ignored in favor of deploying powers and buffs instead. The entire suite of possible battlefield conditions is relegated to a +1/-1 modifier. Wargames account for the battlefield, card games don't.
As a new player, like several months old, this is what I immediately realized. "The Game" is the list build. The tabletop is a, largely superfluous, exercise in statistics; the three-dimensional, spacial aspect of the tabletop is irrelevant.
Another commenter wrote that 40K is a dice-driven card game, which it is. IMO, they need to accept and lean into that. A "competitive army" should be built the same as a magic deck - pulling from the entire range of GW products that have synergistic, and often unintentional, effects. Given the popularity of MTG, GW probably realizes this, but, other than the hobby aspect, it becomes hard to justify the use of models in the first place. So what can you do with a model that you can't do with a card? Answer -- terrain effects - include them as part of the "list build."
I think the problem is that the game has changed so much, it's no longer a wargame, it's as you said a dice driven card game now. I've accepted that it won't be going back so I play the older editions
@@DMKA94 That's fine, but there is nothing wrong with being a dice driven card game, as long as its fun. Wargames without the list build aspect of card games can feel like dry runs in applied statistics, which is one reason they aren't more popular, IMO.
Playing for narrative moments is my fun in the game. Go for the crazy thing to happen!
I found some awesome space elf STL's and I'm about to use them to dive into One Page Rules
Love the video! Playing salamanders, my lists almost always change from game to game and love to add in uncommon units just to try them out, earlier I even brought an allied knight just to try him out
40k hasn't been fun for a long time. Too much to keep track of, too many "gotcha!" moments to worry about, too many absurd combos due to bad rules writing. The Old World is pretty damn tight for a WHFB ruleset, and I've been having a great time. Probably the most fun I've had gaming since Warmachine mk2.
Additionally, you're right. Armies need to feel unique. Making them more same-ish for the cause of competitive balance can sacrifice a lot of whimsy that makes the game "fun"
the gotcha moments are a thing but we have talked about this as being apart of the social contract between players. most of us want a solid game and to win based on generalship, not cause we caught the opponent in a wombo combo (although not everyone follows that mentality)
If you’re not having fun with 40k, it’s because you aren’t an Ork player
A big reason why people don’t “paint for fun” anymore is because the hobby is so expensive, it can be hard to justify buying a model without being able to actually use it on the table top. That’s why I love skirmish games so much, like 40k Killteam, or starwars legion’s shatterpoint. Because of the low cost on entry, it’s a lot easier on the wallet to build multiple different factions.
A fair point, it's all dependant on where you are at and how much disposable cash you have for plastic dudes lol. Whatever you play the tabletop hobby is excellent
10ed is definitely not that fun to play; everything feels too samey and it boils down to who can fish for the most 6s. Positioning will always be important, but being in the right position means nothing when you either cannot hit, cannot wound, or cannot get through a save due to terribly written special rules or stratagems.
9th had some fun parts but there was waaaaaaaaaay too much to keep track of during the game. See stratagems and stacking faction and subfaction special rules.
I didn't play from late 6th to all of 8th, so view my opinion through that lens. The height of 40k was 4th-5th edition, IMHO. Yes there were some issues but the game as a whole was just so much more fun to play, and factions all had a distinct identity beyond "we fish for 6s in a slightly different way."
With all (most) of the rules coming from a marketing perspective instead of a making a better game perspective and the E-sports, ultra hardcore competitive scene bleeding into everyone's games, it seems like 'the death of fun'. We as a play group have had a dilemma but we have side stepped the Meta chasing and just created a fun dynamic 'Fun before rules' never "That pesky Fun getting in the way of my Rules".
Having a group that plays the same and having everyone on the same page is huge. You can have open and matched play work together (as an example) but it can create some moments of feel bad. Cherish your gaming group as long as you can cause it leads to having fun with your friends.
I left after the LoV launch debacle and never looked back
I play about two games of 40K per year, and almost every time I come away thinking that I didn't really enjoy it. Warhammer Ancients, and in particular The Old Word, I enjoy much more, and a large part of that is that the rules don't lean towards rapid destruction of one side or the other. Battletech I play about eight or nine games per year, and even this weekend where I couldn't score a hit for love nor money, I had a great time, because there are active decisions to make throughout the playing time. In 40K if you've not got the first turn there's a better-than-even chance that you're already lost, and the lethality of the game makes every mistake or misplay crushing. I don't enjoy being on either side of that equation.
What I find fun is successfully casting "Treason of Tzeentch" against my opponents Librarian and having it blow up a rhino ;)
Also, I find that what happens with so many of the table top war / rpg's is they keep watering down the difficulty or game play in order to reach the largest customer base possible and then loose what made them fun and unique to play as opposed to a reskin of the same game that every other company has.
🙃
Having a play group that is on the same page is super important. Nothing worse than trying to balance our different minded player bases Open play vs Competitive play. You can make it work but there is potential for feels bad on either side.
In order to have fun while losing, it has to be close. If you kill a third of my units in turn one before i get to move, thats game. We can scoop and reset, or we can play it out but the result will be inevitable and thus pretty unenjoyable.
If we play a game that genuinely comes down to turn 5, that's fun.
Part of this is making sure the person or people you play with understands what level of competitiveness you want to have, and them *actually* bringing something appropriate.
Too many times while playing mtg i would go to a casual game night and 3/4 of my matchups would literally be whatever was in the top8 at the most recent protour.
We narrative players need safe spaces with high fences to keep the zero sum must win players out 😂
That's fair to say. I have a friend who used to say it's all about who makes the least mistakes during a game. If I make a bad move and get blown out because of it, it's still fun and I've learned a lesson. Although turn 1 getting alpha struck can be a disheartening blow, it just means we need to hide better or take a look at the terrain to make sure it will support matched play properly.
Our new terrain set is excellent for that particular issue as well.
I'm with the guy who said no part of losing is fun lol. Learning that I can't deploy in a certain way doesn't make the dopamine machine go brr for me. I'm a very casual player though, so it's understandable.
The game, for me, is really just a structure we can use to do something while we hang out and chat and eat and drink etc. Someone running a netlist and tabling me over and over is almost like someone going into a party and turning off the music so everyone can hear him sing😂
As WS player whose 3500pts and 99% (have one legal model) l can say that w40k, after the sm codex , became extremly unfun.
You might enjoy the new MCDM game. You never miss! Isn't that FUN?!
Warhammer is a lot of fun. You all described how the stages the game is fun for 100's of hours BEFORE you even get to place your models across your opponent. Hell, even the social "haggling" about rules, terrain, True Line of Sight, tilted dice and other vague outcomes in a competitive match is fun, ESPECIALLY if you're losing and your opponent shows a lot of grace.
40k has never been more fun, because raw models are mattering less and format + sportmanship matters more. 40k is a social game now, it's about "clubs", leagues, helping each other, reading-lists, placements, nerding about stats, extra-activities and community like any hobby "sport".
If you just go to college basketball training only to dunk the ball for 2 hours while ignoring everyone and then go home then it's not going to be fun.
I like you guys talking about your hobby and pumping each other up about paint jobs etc but we can't see that shit, PLEASE put pics while you're talking about it
We can definitely edit pictures in of our work. If you want to see majority of our painting follow our other socials such as Facebook and Instagram - all the painted goodies you can handle!
GW needs to have a slice of Battletech: Dark Age level of humble pie to get the Share holders and Management to respect their customers for Warhammer to be good. But as of now, they coast on the power of Sunk Cost Fallacy to keep making money off of games that are the table top equivalent to the new Madden NFL video games.
Definitely easier said then done but agreed GW does need to make sure they are at least catering to the 80% of the gamers. The matched play demand has helped progress the game like never before though I will add and other games could use the level of support (Horus Heresy for example is years behind and in dire need of consistent suport)
On a side note.. Battletech also could use a big revamp in my opinion. The system is very very crunchy and dated. - I ended up bailing and playing Adeptus Titanicus (plays faster and still has some granular layers of damage and game play)
EDMONTON?! HI 😊
Yes indeed Edmonton!
@Trident.wargaming I'm going to have to get a hold of you guys soon. A group of friends and I started Nerd Nights and I definitely don't want to have to compete for 40k tournaments haha
That's why you play AoS 😊
Lmao
I have heard this before, AoS 4.0 is supposed to be the bees knees
Why are the windows with your faces so small?
Picture in picture editing. We use the thumbnail as the background and post the cast on the picture itself.
It because the hosts are very ugly :(
40K is completely hot money driven garbage!
Many games cost a bit of money to play, I will admit 40k has a steep price point but for the support it is getting, it is worth it (for me anyways)
What other games do you play?
Well, my 2c after selling off $2500 of 40K and KT...
Purchased Mantic Deadzone and Firefight, Core Space and subbed OPR.
Just as much fun for less than half the price ant most important - STABLE RULES WITHOUT THE RELENTLESS BOOK PURCHASES.
I'm happy with my 2c.
@@wetland3010 exactly right 👍😎
@@wetland3010 Who buys books when PDFs for free exist LOL.
Hate these channels that just whinge. YOU are whats wrong. Its boring. If you dont like it youre free to do something else.
You did not listen to the episode, that much is clear
We talk about what players can do if they are not having fun in the trinity of the hobby.. playing, building and painting. You just commented based on the title.
Boooooo. Watch the video.
@@Trident.wargaming Yes. I commented on your negative, clickbait title and as the title was such a crappy subject I had no wish to watch.
@@chargingfromdeepstrike_studios No.
Once you play a variety of TT wargames you see what trash 40K is. The more serious you take the game the less fun it is.
Trash compared to what though? 40k is in a pretty good place and there has been more positive changes in 10th i think then we have had before.