But how close is Flight Simulator to real world?
Вставка
- Опубліковано 14 лип 2024
- Microsoft Flight Simulator is an awesome piece of software and comes incredibly close to re-creating flying within the limitations of a home computer or X-Box.
However, there's one major element that is missing and for me it makes a big difference to the realism, especially when flying small light aircraft.
As a real world pilot I want to show you what I mean in this video and demonstrate how the sim differs in real world scenarios.
I love Microsoft Flight Simulator and fly it almost every day but there's definitely something missing.
My name is Terry Kent and I am a General Aviation PPL private pilot operating out of North Weald EGSX about 12 miles to the north east of London in the UK. Short Field is my channel focused on the lighter side of General Aviation including flight and airfield reviews, equipment unboxing and review plus all things private pilot related. I use various cameras to record my videos including GoPro and Insta 360 and stills and edit them in Adobe Premiere Pro, I am an animator as well and often use animations to describe situations more clearly I use Blender and Adobe After Effects for these. I always attempt to post my videos in the highest possible quality, normally 4k.
I fly a 2011 Pipersport two seat single engine aircraft that is also known as the PS28 or SportCruiser in the USA (America) it is know under the FAA as an LSA or Light Sport Aircraft and can be flown on a very basic license. In the UK it is a Part 21 airplane which requires a full licence but it's generally cheap to run, affordable maintenance and great value for money. It cruises at 100 to 105 knots and has superb short take off and landing or STOL capabilities. I visit farm strips, back country and short airfields, some of them dangerous and I try not to crash :-), as well as international airports and try to learn something new every time I fly.
I fly VFR and IFR as well as visual and instrument approaches.
My videos may give helpful information to pilots but please remember these are just for entertainment, I am not an instructor nor should anything shown in my videos be used for real world aviation, also the airfields I visit may have totally changed or even closed since the making of the video so always consult the latest information for your country.
If you enjoyed this video, please give it a ‘thumbs up’ and leave me a comment in the box below, I love to read them and I also like to hear what you like or dislike about my video. Please share it with anyone you think would be interested and I'd so love it if you ticked SUBSCRIBE and DING THE NOTIFICATION BELL to be informed by UA-cam when I upload my next video. Thank you so much.
If you are interested, my video content is available to purchase as stock footage, please contact me via my email address in the ABOUT section of my channel for more information.
If you like my content (I don't get any revenue from this channel at all) you could buy me a coffee but no worries if you don't want too, I'm just chuffed that you are even interested in my videos, and if you ever see me at any airfields please come over and say 'Hi' and I'll probably buy you a coffee.
www.buymeacoffee.com/shortfield
If you see me around please, please come over and say 'Hi'.
Planning Software: SkyDemon www.skydemon.aero/
I can't afford a plane, but I can afford the most wonderful flight sim ever created for a home PC; end of story.
Pete, I love MSFS it's fantastic and I fly it all the time replicating real world A320 ops. However without motion it's really difficult to re-create that 'seat of the pants' feeling that all IRL pilots use to help them and it's why MSFS is harder to master than the real thing. Thank you for the comment and point me to some of your FS videos sir.
@@ShortFieldWhilst I partially agree with you, most people are not simming airliners in order to master them, rather they are trying to learn all the technology, procedures and some immersing themselves in ATC (Vatsim).
@@ShortField Having flown a lot in MSFS and had some flying lessons you are absolutely right about the "seat of the pants" feelings, the motions, etc. Trimming in sim is a pain because you can't feel the pressure from the trim tab in sim. It's very easy to over trim. However, motion in an aircraft can betray you especially in cloud so MSFS is great for instrument flying.
@@ShortField seat of the pants is only good for small aircraft, large aircraft is only numbers, matter fact they teach you to discard the feelings and go only by procedures, numbers and motoric skills. Get something like Brunner yoke and pedals and it's almost the same in VR except the G's
I bet you can afford an Ultralight
To simulate turbulence I get the wife to wobble my seat around. 🤣🤣🤣
sounds like a good marriage 😆
@@schlaepp1502 I do sometimes get turbulence about the head though. 🤣🤣🤣
Haven't convinced her that motors are a viable alternative yet? 6DOF motion platform soon!
🤣😂 for me just her calling "where are you?" does the job!😂😂
My children happily wobble the chair for me too.
If you want realism , do your pilot licence , if you cart afford to do that...be happy with a simulator....the two will never be the same....it is still better than watching TV.
I love MSFS but it is different.
I'm a sim pilot from the 80's. Got my license in 2011 and found that the sim was an incredible teaching tool for VOR navigation and procedures. My biggest problem in real life training was my landings. In the sim you tend to push down toward the runway. It drove my flight instructor nuts. I can still hear him saying. Power for altitude pitch for airspeed. Great video 😀
Nice video, although you are probably not aware of the huge advancements in flight Force Feedback yokes and motion platforms that greatly enhance the experience. You can now really feel all of those sensations you mentioned, including aerodynamic forces on the yoke, acceleration, vibrations and bumps, turbulence etc etc. It really is quite remarkable. It all depends on how much you are willing to spend. But this in combination with VR and a high fidelity flight model, such as A2As Comanche, really makes the difference.
I know and I have never tried VR, I'm going to though, thank you.
VR itself will not give you any of the physical experience you say the sim is lacking. It will add the third dimension and make your visual experience and immersion a lot better than a 2D monitor can give you.
You have to couple it with a force feedback peripheral for your yoke or stick and preferably a 6DOF motion platform.
I used to be an IFR rated GA pilot and I now fly virtually in VR + FFB + ButtKicker + 6DOF platform and the physical sensations are quite extraordinary. You can experience all the motion cues necessary to trick your brain and make you think you’re actually in a real airplane.
That’s why I did not understand the purpose of your video, you’re not comparing apple to apple!
Great IRL visuals tho!@@ShortField
@@ShortFieldgo for it, the Sim without all the hardware is just a preview or a switchology trainer . For comparison with real VFR flying this makes the difference and it comes even closer
Not feeling the bumps, deceleration etc is something which really hit me when I started flying gliders after having flown flight sims for decades! I had no idea takeoff and landing would be SO VIOLENT :D much more than airliners (obviously) but also wayyy more than other light aircraft I've been in! A winch start is something else and coming in to land and dumping all your speed and lift with the big barndoor brakes on the wings feels like you're falling, not descending :D It did however help me loads as I was quite quickly fairly proficient, so much so that my instructor remarked upon it! I think that was due to me practicing in MSFS to fly the same glider and at the same airfield even... I was used to the procedures and the visual of coming in to land or holding wings level on a winch TO... the body feeling was of course lacking but so much more could be practised again and again at home, regardless of weather or the cost of lessons. A fantastic tool for learning gliders and GA in my experience even if the "seat of your pants" feel is missing.
I think the most interesting thing about flight simulators and other simulations is how deeply and precisely the people making them have to understand the phenomenon in the real world to replicate it. It is all nice and well to say "this feels different" and with some effects it might be obvious why (e.g. the shaking missing) but to actually fix it in all situations you need an incredibly deep understanding both of the real world effect you are trying to simulate and the limitations and differences from the real world of the simulated environment.
My setup involves VR, haptics ( vibration ) and a small motion rig. And I do get all those sensations. Up to the point where if my haptics are not on for some reason, I cannot fly the plane. So it’s not the sim per se, it’s what you add as hardware that completes the puzzle.
I need that.
6DOF.... Costs about as much as your annual and certification. Add VATsim for human comms and ATC.
@@b6s4sheltervatsim doesnt cost money
Great video. Simulators have gotten such a stigma over the years. Growing up in Anchorage I've been around small planes my whole life. My dad had a Super Cub on floats and took me all over. I became an aerospace engineer and work on an AF base but never had the time or money to get licensed myself. During COVID I got into VR and then eventually followed that path to MSFS2020 and DCS building out my sim-rig gradually over the years. I seek out the most study-level aircraft I can get and practice real-life procedures as much as I can including the great experiences that services like PilotEdge and FSAcademy have to offer. When I had the opportunity to fly in the left-hand seat a few times with a certified instructor I know from work, I was able to fly like an experienced student right off the bat! Like you said, if you are very comfortable in the sim in all aspects of aviation (systems, navigation, communication, procedures, etc.) then the real aircraft actually feels more forgiving to fly than the simulator does :-) My instructor friend couldn't believe it. Indeed, going in the other direction was harder: my instructor friend struggled quite a bit on my simulator, mostly during the landing.
It's funny that comparing the sim to real life flying has only further discouraged me from pursuing my private license. Doing the comparison and blowing my instructor friend's mind was fun, but I didn't find myself rushing to schedule another flight with him despite the standing offer he gave me. I actually feel liberated from the pressure I always used to feel about getting into the flying hobby in real life. I'm quite satisfied being a sim pilot.
A lot of this may be the result of how I have optimized my sim-rig over the years. For a tiny fraction of the cost of a real airplane things like Buttkickers, JetPads, FFB yokes, motion platforms, and of course VR have all combined to create such an immersive experience at home that I really feel it is a great balance of most of the good sensations without any of the bad. I feel the subtle feedback from my engine RPM's, ground bumps, turbulence, gear movement, stall buffeting, etc. but I don't have to experience any more effects from bad air than I choose to. I also don't think I would appreciate having to actually pull all of the G's that I do in DCS on a regular basis. 🙂 Then there is the whole matter of living out whatever pilot fantasy you want without worrying about money or maintenance or risk to life & limb. 2024 is a great time to be an aviation enthusiast with an RTX 4090 ;-) Can't wait for MSFS2024!
Hi, from Argentina... When I was a PPL student, my instructor would get angry when I talked to him about the flight simulator. He would ask me to concentrate on the maneuvers and all that stuff. But he once told me that his other students had not used the simulator and since then he noticed that I did it better or easier because of my experience with the simulator. It is true that you have to feel the airplane, you become one with the airplane, and that does not happen in the simulator.
Bien de argento lo del instructor
I have a pilot license and yes, there are major differences between the real world and FS. However I would recommend everyone who wants to get his pilot license to practice a lot before you actually start taking lessons. It will definitely save you time (and money) learning to fly in the real world.
While it’s not perfect, I got a simple stick, throttle, and pedal setup for my xbox before I started flight training. I practiced both procedures like the checklists and runup, as well as basic maneuvers. Some things just don’t work in the sim, like stalls aren’t even close. But climbs, descents, turns, slow flight, steep turns, all close enough that practicing them in MSFS helped me master them quickly in flight training. I advanced very quickly from zero time to solo and I credit that to not just playing with the simulator but actually practicing procedures and maneuvers in it.
Worth mentioning, the sim is also fantastic for emergency practice. I’ve spent hours intentionally failing the engine at different phases of flight and altitudes around where I fly and making simulated emergency landings. While in real life you won’t ever make an off airport landing unless it happens for real, you can do it without limit in the simulator. Flying the plane all the way to the ground in small clearings, figuring out at what altitudes you might actually be able to make the impossible turn, finding survivable landing spots straight ahead from my local runways, the simulator has given me a lot more confidence because I now have a plan for nearly any possible emergency, that I’ve actually flown in a simulation of the planes I fly. It may not be the real thing but with max gross weight and high density alt in the sim I’m confident if it was doable there it would be doable for real.
Practicing procedure seems like it is a good idea. It gets it into your brain so that you are able to absorb flying vs mundane rote stuff. Also you can practice flight planning and see how accurate you are in a sim by adding events to throw you off.
There is one key thing developers will never, ever be able to program into their sims, and that's the "fear of death." C'mon, did this video really need to be made? Do people really need to be told that it's not like the real thing? But then, my local grocery store had to put a sign out front that reads "Don't run over the pedestrians."
The model correlation and the experientia are not necessarily directly related.
I have used sims for years and then got my first lesson in a real aircraft [a Piper PA-28 Cherokee] and it felt like it had the acceleration of an F1 car.
You can't get that in a sim!
My eyes lit up when I saw this Video.
I'm a low hours microlight student, the weather for almost a full year now, has curtailed my Lessons, my next lesson was meant to be Stalls LAST August.
To maintain my enthusiasm and passion for wanting to learn to fly I bought MSFS on Xbox S and bought a yoke, throttle and rudder set up.
So it's not the real thing obviously, I'm not learning in a Cessna 152!😂..but I'm hoping it will help me with the Basics that I've covered so far in real flight.
Great Video and not made me feel like I've wasted my money😂
Awesome Good Luck, where abouts are you based? The weather hasn't been great, and that is why myself Terry and many others turn to the sim during the winter months to keep those vital decision making skills sharp.
Fantastic, you will learn so much just on the sim, probably will save you a few hours in flight time. Also you can go over your lesson afterwards in the sim to fully ingrain them to your memory.
@@crisjpalmer Been Having lessons at Ince Blundell near Formby Merseyside, Beautiful coastline to fly around in...but the Weather seems determined to try to kill my dreams.
@@ShortField I feel like I'm "all the gear but no idea" so Simming has been my only way, even trying to fly in live weather and realising why my lesson was cancelled😂
@@QuantatativeStealing It definitely helps ... I got two lessons in when covid lockdowns hit, so I had spells of 2/3/4 months where I couldn't fly as the rules kept changing. The sim definitely helps, keep chomping away at the procedural stuff ... practice some nav good old compass and stopwatch stuff it will help build your confidence.
Hey Terry, great video! Have you tried Flight Sim in VR? I was impressed how different it is, it's almost a completely different sim. It still not exactly realistic, but when in VR is is a huge leap even though you are missing the feel and forces.
I made a video from the VR perspective. I'd link it here, but it seems the comment gets blocked.
No I need to check out VR.
@@ShortField I can't wait for your next Flight Sim video where you try it :D
@@ShortField please do, I think you will come away with a new appreciation for the sim, not quite flight, but VR adds a lot to the sim.
One thing that's also different is the ability to feel the aircraft trim. I find trimming the aircraft in flight sims a lot more difficult than in the real thing. However, its much safer to practice IFR approaches to 200ft minimums in a flight sim.
VR is a great addition for serious flight sim. It makes the visuals much more immersive and "realistic".
the answer is the A2A Comanche. The reason you're having trouble trimming aircraft in the sim is simply because the aircraft you fly are trash.
One hundred percent .... my biggest bug bear in MSFS is the lack of feel when trying to trim the aircraft.
@@davidtsw Didn't you state in your previous comment that you aren't a real pilot? quite a statement saying that every third party aircraft other than the A2A Comanche is trash?
@@crisjpalmer you don't need to be a real pilot to know this, which is why there are plenty of real pilots who claim/pretend that many of those toys are realistic
@@davidtsw Oh Ok, you do realise i am literally the guy flying in this video and i can assure you that whilst the A2A comanche is good and honestly far superior than a lot of other products it still lacks the "Feel" that you get in a real aircraft. Modern sims are great but they "Do" have certain limitations.
Quite thought provoking this one, Terry!
And agreed! Flight simming will always have it's limitations.
It cannot deliver the sheer visceral assault on the senses of flying in real weather.
Nor can it, I feel, imbue we simmers with the sense of joy that you routinely display and convey in your excellent videos.
But it is great as a learning tool, and serves as a good introduction to the field of aviation generally.
I personally love the learning of all the systems, proceedures and protocols that go into flying in as real an environment as it is now possible to simulate.
So, until the day arrives whereby we can plug our brains directly into the PC - not something I would nesessarily advocate, I shall continue to suppliment my
flight simming experience vicariously here on your channel.
Many thanks.
Cheers Phil I was a simmer before learning to fly and I'll be a simmer long after I stop, it's a fantastic way to get your altitude fix.
The purpose of flight simulators is to simulate various situations and procedures, allowing users to become familiar with aircraft instruments and practice handling different scenarios. It’s important to note that flight simulators and real flying experiences serve distinct purposes, and both are valuable for training.
100% agree, thanks.
Agree, but you can simulate the feel of fly but it’s going to be extremely expensive and it’s likely a type specific build too
So I'm not a real pilot and I don't claim that a flight sim can ever feel just like real flying, not even level D flight sims, but:
Wind turbulence: get Active Sky and RealTurb. It's night and day.
Can't judge the distance on short final? get VR for 3d vision
Want to feel the bumps? Get a buttkicker seat or better yet, a full motion seat. $$$
Want to fight the controls? Force feedback controls are on the rise again so soon enough there should be more options and more support.
And most importantly, choose the best GA plane that nothing else can touch in MSFS - the A2A Comanche (ok, Im glad the other pilot mentioned it).
So yeah, a lot of what you mention can actually be replicated in the flight sim pretty well. It's just a matter of cost.
I was going to say the same thing, I do fly IRL and agree that the ‘feel’ is missing in the sim, but you can add things to the base sim to get round some of that with motion devices, add-ons that have gone the extra mile to replace the default airports with more accurate versions and make more realistic weather in the sim. These things will get you much closer but not perfect.
Real pilot, real CFI here. It is still a simulation, no matter how much $$ you throw at it. Anxiety, of flying, of weather or an aircraft approaching can not be simulated. Never. Because a sim can be paused. Not so in real life.
Great Feedback David, i used to have the "Sidewinder" Joystick back in the day and have really missed the "Force Feedback" experience in MSFS. Modern sims with appropriate hardware definitely come close to the real thing and as Terry said .... i actually find it easier landing irl than i do in the sim.
@@flexairz obviously. The same thing can be said about the multi-million simulators that airlines use
@@crisjpalmer I agree on the force feedback and it seems to be making a return as it was huge at the recent flightsim expo. Lots more controllers now going to support FF
During my discovery flight the instructor asked if I had flown before because of how well I was handling the controls. I contributed my skills to my flight sim set up. He actually said I was just as good as some of his 3 month students!
I can’t afford yet to get my PPL so I bought FS2020, a joystick and airbus throttle quadrant and add on. I learned so much with UA-cam and practice on the simulator (VOR to VOR, NDB navigation, pilotage, charts, Climb level and descend, radio coms, GPS, procedures…) I’m learning to fly the Fenix A320 airliner. I bought pilot2ATC to master radio coms and plan to fly on Vatsim when I’ll be more confident. That’s so rewarding to fly planes in the sim, I have so much fun discovering the world for free. it keeps motivated to save for my PPL to fly IRL. 🌿hi from New Zealand
Perfect, MSFS will save you plenty of hours in the real cockpit. Let me know when you do start your training. My fav is the Fenix and I find it very realistic as 'feel' is not so important on airliners. Good luck sir.
While anti gravity technology doesn’t exist to give us full on realistic gforces, you absolutely CAN get movement forces through both controls and seat as FFB sticks, yokes and rudder pedals exist and in fact there’s just been a big bump in manufacturers interest in making such devices with 4-5 MORE FFB sticks and other FFB yokes and rudder pedals announced at the recent FSExpo, along with a motion platform that can give you movement cues and the bumps.
So apart from full on sustained gforces I have to disagree on that part.
Funny thing is the turbulence simulation was a bit more true to irl when the sim released than it is now but a lot of people complained that it was too strong, or that they couldn't maintain straight and level flight when using real world weather. At the end of the day though, missing the feel is crucial, even an FAA certified FTD feels nothing like the real airplanes they simulate.
After being religiously an x-plane user, when I got into a plane to learn to fly I noticed that difference. The other thing is the lack of resistance on the stick/yoke and how you can’t really get anything similar unless you install a real airplane into your living room.
Force feedback sticks are being made again.
@@ArchOfficial yeah, that's a fair point too
When I learned to fly, we just had a large poster on the wall and had an armchair in front of it. We called it armchair flying and was designed for you to become familiar with all the instruments and their positions. Pretty much MSFS does the same and is more of a familiarity and procedure trainer. I actually found it difficult in the plane as if I got into difficulty in the sim, I could pause it and get back in front of the aircraft. In the aircraft sometimes I felt myself looking for the pause button if I was falling behind the aircraft.
Flying poster, those were the days.
With Mobiflight a few cheap Arduinos and some switches LCDs displays you can work magic. It may not be as real as real, but it is impressive how far it has came.
The worst part is traveling to an awesome destination and then I leave my house and I am still in a lame location. I started with sims on a Tandy 1000 and FS1 in '83. Ive been through all of it.
It’s super interesting how a lot of what you are describing is completely possible to do in flight sims like the pilot being pushed around during rudder input during flight or the need for a lot of rudder at take off.
Though the g-forces will never be simulated no matter what really. Gonna go fly a Super Cub later this summer, where I will learn more about this myself!
You can immediatly feel the difference even when you are a passenger on the A320N. I have hundreds of hours of sim flight in the A320 and everytime I get on a plane and feel the winds, the ground effect, the acceleration forces when taking off, I realize how hard it gets when all those forces strike you while flying.
That being said, I am trying to get from simulator to a real world academy and get up there.
I love flying the A320 and in that I really believe I could jump into the real thing and fly it, mainly because it's system driven and the missing 'feel' is not required, however in a light aircraft that dynamic element is needed as so much is based on 'seat of the pants' in a small aircraft. Thanks for the watch and comment
If the only complaints about MSFS is missing the physical G forces and a few missing sound vibrations, then that is a fantastic substitute for less then 1/10 the cost of actual pilots license and maintaining real planes.
100% agree.
Thank you for another great video Terry. It's a big help to us simmers stuck on terra firma to get your comparisons, very helpful indeed!
My RLE is confined to an hour up in a PA28 out of Compton Abbas a couple of years ago when I did quite a lot of the actual piloting.....a memorable experience, but I'm afraid the meagre pension doesn't run to lessons, oh, and I did have a few trips up in a Chippie whilst in the RAF many moons ago😏
I was a real world pilot years ago light single and twins.
I agree completely but MSFS is something i never thought would come along i love it but to get the best out of it you need VR and maybe a motion rig.
Have you checked out the DOF Simulator seat with a butt kicker? Full set up is around 8k plus. It will give you the pitch, roll, heave, surge, yaw and sway. The butt kicker will add to the bump feeling. Just saying.
Wonderfully put across Terry and I can totally see the FS2020 has transformed sim flying. You know where my brain went for flexwing but I'll keep quiet for now :).
Thanks Giles, I am a simmer and will always be, long after I stop flying.
From someone who flies in simulator and real life. Although not the same, the simulator has helped me in many ways. Most importantly being vatsim. Starting out, real life ATC communications where super easy to me because of the time I spent on vatsim. Although I do agree that MSFS does not capture the real feeling of flying smaller planes! Great video!
Agreed
In french, one of the oldest aviation country (remember that all first US fighter pilots all flew on french planes as volounters in the french air force) there is an expression that translates to the feeling of flying light aircrafts as "piloter aux fesses" which litteraly means "piloting with the feel of your ass", which is the thing that makes real navy f-18 pilot having more trouble on dcs than IRL to land on a carrier: the lack of feeling your aircraft sinking or rising and so on!
Unless you're willing to pay thousands for a full motion platform, there's no way msfs will replicate the physical sensations of flight. What it does do well is the visual and audio cues. It's great for practicing procedures. Connect to VATSIM and you have realistic atc.
In my case I use a triple monitor setup which feels really immersive.
I’m always close to my checkride in and have around 70hrs in a c172. The sim has helped but not when it came to maneuvers and landings.
The feel of flying you can never replicate that. 45 degree steep turns. I love that feeling of being pushed back into my feet. ❤
I'd agree that a sim helps you learn. Before I got my PPL (many years ago and now well out of date), I played MS FS - in the 1980s! So when I put the hood on and the instructor put the aircraft in an unusual attitude, I was able to get out of it quickly because I knew what inputs were needed. That was a great feeling. But you're dead right, nothing compares to the sensations of the real thing. Great video, thanks Terry.
I don't fly any more but your channel gets me up there...
Oh, deffo great for system and learning.
You need to buy a 6dof motion platform and VR goggles in order to get the feel of flying via situation.
I find it so frustrating that we had affordable force feedback with the Sidewinders in the early 2000s but then flight sims didn't follow this technology as simracing did. Seat of pants feeling is greatly simulated by the force feedback in sim racing wheels, we just need the same following of the tech in flight sims.
Agreed, feeling the rudder forces would really help a lot! But it's coming back! With the patent expiration, more and more manufacturers are now announcing force feedback sticks. You can already buy some kits from garage builds (though with long wait times), but others, like Moza, are set to offer off-the-shelf products. 2024 / 2025 might become the best year for force feedback!
@@gerhard-b yeah but even if the hardware is slowly coming back, the software totally dropped support. I hope MSFS 24 will have support for ffb but 2020 doesn't
@@Myosos No native support in the software, but the manufacturers of the sticks implement their own! They read the telemetry from the sim and translate the data into force feedback for the stick. Maybe that's even the best way to do it since every hardware setup can be different. All the sim has to do is provide accurate telemetry data (currently done via SimConnect, I think).
@7:35 I totally agree that landing in the sim is more difficult than landing in real life.
A few people have commented already on advancements in the home simulator market. Force feedback yokes and sticks are reappearing in the market place, motion rigs have become affordable, and of course VR…
With all these things, the experience is still not the same as real life - but it’s getting pretty close in all important respects.
Force feedback means you can now trim accurately, and the whole process of trimming is very close to that IRL. As well, of course, as actually being able to feel the controls load up and relax as airspeed increases or decreases.
Motion rigs, do give the sense of acceleration/deceleration, as well as imparting turbulence, and the impact of the gear on the ground, as well as a few other tactile cues when the gear is raised or lowered say. It’s not perfect, and the lumps and bumps of a grass strip or other surfaces isn’t well modelled. But a good turbulent cross wind approach in a motion rig feels pretty realistic.
And then VR - the absolute game changer! With the only real caveat that it’s a bit like wearing a diving mask, in that your peripheral vision is compromised somewhat. But jumping into a Spit and formating on another Spit at Duxford or wherever, is intoxicating, as well as being mad remarkably easier, being in VR rather than a pancake screen such as a monitor.
I’m the opposite of you, as I rarely fly the airliners, as that’s what I do for a living - so GA flying, or hooning around in a Typhoon, or Spit is my thing. And while it could can never match the real thing for excitement - it can get a lot closer than your video portrays…
I would go so far as to say if one were an ab-initio student, a rig such as I, or @VRFlightSimGuy has, would help enormously in almost every aspect of flying training (I think VFR Nav might be where it falls down a bit, as you can’t exactly draw chinagraph lines on a chart in VR), certainly the physical aspects of flight anyway.
There is a drawback though, and that is cost. You need a powerful PC to do VR justice, and the extras such as the headset itself, the motion rig, the force feedback controls - it’s a big spend! You could probably get a PPL for the same sort of outlay!
But, as someone who has been flying now for 46 years, and is approaching retirement - the access I have now in my ‘man-cave’ to a top tier home sim is far more convenient than driving nearly an hour to our local GA field, all the prep involved in renting a 172 or similar, just to fly somewhere for what becomes a very expensive burger. I can walk to the bottom of our garden, wind up the sim, and be wazzing around the Mach Loop in minutes. And of course, I can let the neighbours play - a curry evening, a few bottles of wine, and a (very competitive) landing competition ensues! Can’t do that in real life!
TL;DR each have their place, and with the advancement in tech, sims are getting ever closer to real life. My advice (which is worth exactly what you’ve paid for it) is to find someone with a motion rig, and VR, and have a go in a higher end setup - it will blow your mind just how good it is!
Wonderful Phil, looking forward to FF sticks and yokes. I fly more hours on the sim than I do in the real thing so I'd never want to not have it.
Awesome video Terry, i had enormous fun taking part in this .... hopefully we can try some other stuff in the near future.
Great to see you in the flesh so to speak Chris.
@GolfFoxtrot22 When this weather finally sorts itself out, I will have to head up to Darley Moor !!! Was meant to be going to East Kirkby today, but decided to listen to my gut 😬⛈️
@@crisjpalmer I wanted to drag the NiNE out for a check flight but its just been too gusty today. Where are you based?
Most definitely buddy!
One thing to look out for is the options for realness in the sim. There are options that will add right rudder for you. Take it off and it's a bit more similar to the real thing. At least it is for me but I fly out of a paved runway. Not tried soft field yet.
You're right about MSFS but keep in mind that no Simulator will replace real flight.
I think you should try Virtual Reality especially the Pima Crystal. By the way, you are able to feel the aircraft much more than on a monitor ;--)
Judging distance for flaring at landing is much better in VR.
Hi Terry, I love your videos! I'd love to visit some of those nice strips in the UK in the future! I've recently started my PPL training, after more than 15 years and a few thousand hours of flight simming experience. There's always those sim pilots bragging about landing a 747 on a 800ft grass strip, but I've always tried to pursue as much realism as I could. Flying online on a network like VATSIM has helped me tremendously with my R/T for example. Often I hear other flight simmers who've taken real flying lessons that flight instructors frown upon us simmers. And I can also see a bit why, but for me personally I think it's helped me in a very positive way. I guess they sometimes are having a hard time trying to get rid of bad habits that simmers have taught themselves over the years. The other day, after I put in only 7 hours of flight training, my instructor said I would almost be ready to solo, where most students need 20-30 hours to achieve this level of airmanship. Bottom line I guess, is how seriously you take flight simulation and try to stick as close to real world operations and procedures as you can and it will be a great tool for your flight training.
Thanks Jeroen I have been a simmer longer than I've been a pilot and have flown more virtual hours than real. MSFS is an awesome tool and I love it I was worried this video would be taken negatively and some simmers have taken it that way, however I wanted to give my view and point out that real flying is actually easier than virtual. Good luck with the training.
Great video and was funny seeing Psion Flight Simulator on here - a blast from the past!
I know it was so crap but in my mind I was actually flying.
I learned to fly back in the nineties. Flying club owned three Morane Ralleys that were fairly cheap to rent. It was much easier to land a real plane than a similar Cessna in the MS flight simulator 95. Human eyes have depth sight so it is much easier to assess distances when flying a circuit. And, as you say, you "feel the plane under your ass" which makes landing a lot easier than with the flight simulator.
Great video! Flight simulators are an essential tool for instrument training and to practice instrument approaches. As well, it is a great tool to familiarize yourself with the approaches at an airport you are planning on flying to.
From a stick and rudders standpoint, I find the forward/side slip, spins, and crosswind landing algorithms to be mediocre at best. Then there is the element of “feel” which, as you mentioned, gives it a shallow feel.
But still, as I’m sure you will agree, Flight Sims are a must have in your pilot bag of tricks.
I found flight sim pretty invaluable during my training a couple times. Early on I was struggling a lot with landings, knowing when the round out etc. My instructor came to my office, had me wear a VR headset, and he just repeated time after time landing at our local airport. Eventually we got it down and I commented "I didn't know it was possible to land without that annoying squelching sound" which he still comments on til this day. That directly translated to real life to knowing how to round out and flare properly in real life. We tried also without the VR headset but it wasn't quite there for doing circuits without it.
Next is during instrument training, keeping up with the ILS/RNAV's and the procedures and stuff.
Also more recently programs like VATSIM and BeyondATC for keeping on top of radio phraseology. Would say this is one of the areas that is sometimes the most/least realistic depending on who you get on the app.
If I crash in Flight Sim , my real life is find :D
I hope to see the comparison about flight model like flat spin , p-factor, etc.
Flight sim is great for practicing instrument flying. I imagine you could use it to practice what you would do if accidentally entering IMC. I use it all the time to stay proficient at landing and turns.
Can you answer a question I have. When I am practicing doing turns I find it kinda hard (actually very hard and hence this question) to concentrate on flying to my desired heading while also having to watch the turn coordinator for proper angle and to keep ball centered while also glancing over at the altitude gauge. This gets really hard and I find myself porpoising up and down in altitude.
Just recently I was interested in finding out if a pilot "feels" slip in plane and found a video where instructor told student to close eyes and he knew where the ball was at all times without looking at the indicator. So that is answered....its easier in real life as you feel the slip in seat of the pants.
So now I wonder, in real life and you bank the plane and start the turn, do you feel the plane starting to lose altitude or gain altitude and can you hold the altitude just by feel?
Great question definitely feel when the aircraft is coordinated in real flight, uncoordinated feels wrong. Thanks for the great comment 👍
I use XPlane with VR goggles, yoke, peddles, and other physical controllers. The VR headset puts me in the plane for a very realistic experience. While the sim does keep me sharp on many things, you are correct, I can't feel it.
Thats what she said
@@neon_Nomad 😁
Realism is proportional to your budget....Motion, FFB yoke/stick, harpics, Active harness, G seat.
Not very surprised to hear that MS flightsim doesn't bump you around...
Fantastic info 👍
excellent
Time to upgrade to a DOF Reality motion platform. Still out of a lot of peoples reach at £2500 but if you can afford it. It does give you that seat of the pants feel and buffet from turbulence and ground effect and the feel of the grass runways. In the same way VR is next level in Flight sims to give you a realistic 3D environment that you actually feel you are immersed in, Motion platforms and now we are getting Force Feedback Yokes and flight sticks which are yet are another level up getting as real as it gets.
But as you mention in the start of your video it's just amazing how far we have come from the early eighties flight sims to where we are now in 2024. We have realistic visuals, weather, Aircraft flight models, VR to give you that real 3D in the cockpit flying environment and now we are getting more affordable motion platforms and Force Feedback controls!
Amazing time to be a flight sim enthusiast, especially for someone like me that has only had 2 real life lessons as gifts but cannot be a real life pilot, but has had a passion for flight all my life.
Another thing I've noticed: C172 enters a spin way too easily in MSFS compared to reality.
It amazes me that the real plane is more forgiving than the sim one.
I think that's because the sim is based on figures it doesn't account for a pilots reactions and IRL the pilot feels the stall and a wing drop before it happens through the feedback the aircraft is giving them the sound of the airflow and the way the prop windmills and they will feel the controls getting sloppy and the stress on their neck trying fighting to keep their head up against the high angle of attack (even if unconsciously the pilot will add subtle inputs that stop the spin from developing). A fixed base sim can never replicate this.
I just this week got a force-feedback yoke, and it helps with realism a lot. I also have a haptic feedback seat, which also helps. Agreed about the lack of g-forces, but it is still a pretty amazing experience.
I think it should be absolutely clear by logic, that a flight simulator - be it MSFS or X-Plane - will not be able to replicate physical sensations like in an actual aircraft, no matter if GA or jetliners. As others pointed out there are yoke systems providing relatively realistic force feedback - but that's it. If you want to go the full Monty you could invest in one of these gaming chairs for VR which roll and rotate in a number of directions, and have force feedback motors underneath them.
In general there is only so much one can replicate with a flight sim. I built my own G1000 replica to get more immersion and realism. But I will never have the full feeling of an actual plane, but I am aware of that. Flight sims are tools, primarily to learn aviation and the basics of a plane and how to fly it. If you want visuals: MSFS (flying through Bing Maps). if you want realism and actual physics: X-Plane (which can look quite similar to MSFS if you put the effort into it).
Both sims have VR support and I strongly encourage trying out VR on each one. But also, for VR a pretty beefy PC is needed if you want to have 30+ FPS in a headset.
I know that and you’re correct it is obvious but what I was trying to demonstrate (maybe badly) is that bit that’s missing makes a big difference to how you fly especially in a light aircraft. I must admit my setup is really basic and I’ve never flown in VR maybe I should try some of these new things and report back. Thanks for your great comment Marcus.
This here is game. Simulator for me is certified ftd.
Excellent summary Terry, I fully agree with the differences you've pointed out! 👍👍
I very recently made a side-by-side landing video visually comparing FS2020 with the real world (first video on my channel, can't post the link here or comment will be removed for the public).
I love using FS2020 for pre-flight: I fly to airfields and explore especially mountainous regions that are new to me a day or two before my actual trip. This way, I already know what to expect and have much better situational awareness than just looking at maps or satellite imagery (which I also use of course).
The closest to our beloved Cruiser I could find in MSFS 2020 is the Bristell BR23 (payware). X-Plane 12 can be equipped with a decent Sport Cruiser, but it's quite a hassle (you need two extensions combined, and at least one is payware).
As a real-life Sportcruiser pilot it’s a shame the PS-28 is not in MSFS 2020.
Spot-on observation that the seat-of-the-pants feeling is lacking in any flight simulator. I do have a high-end PC plus a VR headset at home. Flying in VR is in my opinion the closest one can get to the real life experience while sitting in a chair firmly planted on the ground.
I do use MSFS often when planning a real-life flight to an airfield I haven’t been before. It helps with orientation on the surroundings during the actual flight.
I had the Sportcruiser in X-Plane but we do need one one in MSFS I'm sure it would be popular, perhaps Inibuilds could add it to the list of the 500+ aircraft they're building atm :-)
No force feedback or altitude sickness , vr flight is chair flying
Love the video Terry, as always. Sims are great for procedural stuff, Ir practice, etc, but I've found it to be lacking in a lot of ways. It's especially unrealistic if you get closer to the edges of the flight envelope - stalls, for example.
Totally agree Scott thank you sir 👍👍👍
Great video Terry, I previously spoke to you about a Eurostar SL cockpit I am making for flight sim.. Well its slow progress and its still not complete but hopefully ill get it done soon. I completely understand about the "feeling" of flight as when I started learning it almost killed flight sim for me but as you say having a good imagination is key! I hope to meet you one day!
Love to see that sim, are you planning on making it move?
The problem with 2020, the flight dynamics (Eg the dangerous bit from base to finals) are not as good as previous versions. Hopefully 2024 should be better in that regard and the graphics. One can now use VR, force feedback controls and seat - all a bit closer to reality.
Flight sims are a useful training aid though and will only get better, but will be heavy on computing power.
Interesting video though Terry 👍😊💜
Having been a sport aircraft pilot myself, I have always thought sims to be devoid of real air turbulence and bumpy ground. That said, MSFS2024 is supposed to introduce real ground physics and in some addon aircraft and scenery's in 2020, the enhanced ground interactions go some way to fooling the mind that the ground is indeed bumpy and uneven. Hopefully 2024 will add to this, I think full VR would go a long way to tricking the brain into feeing more realism as well as many VR pilots will attest to however I have yet to experience VR flight
this is a great video, really interesting to see the insight in this comparison, well done. However there are two points that somewhat spoiled it for me:
1. The script reading makes for quite a wooden narration. Try bullet points for a more natural conversational feel with less reading mistakes.
2. The classic private pilot error of thinking you need to eat the microphone on your headset. 🙃 You really don’t need the mic so close to your mouth. The quality of the mics on these is actually really good but everyone insists on eating them and it just makes the sound so horrible. So much unnecessary sibilance and popping, mouth clicks etc which makes the sound really quite unintelligible 😕.
Thanks for the comment and the constructive feedback. I don’t always script stuff but this time the intro and some elements were (pretty obvious 🤣). The mic on the A20’s does need to be pretty close to your mouth otherwise you just can’t hear it, however I’ll experiment with it. Really appreciate the kind comments, thank you.
I have a pilots licence and my own plane in the past, now I'm old I have flightsim and loving it, great to enjoy navigation etc, who cares if it's not exactly the same of coarse it won't be but with VR it's close enough for me
Nice vid, well put together. I would say tho' that the main takeaway was that you can't 'feel' a plane in the SIM. I'm not sure this is a 'PROBLEM', as your title suggests? MSFS is a SIM, but I don't think any reasonable simmer is disappointed that they can't actually feel the bumps and movements of real aviation, short of having the money and space for some mad hydraulic system. Also, the rudder required on TO can be better replicated in good quality Payware planes.
Really interesting and I'd agree with you being a PPL and also enjoying MSFS at home.
On a separate note, I'd be interested in picking your brains about your drone shots, specifically around manned aircraft in flight - I am looking at doing something similar and just wanted to discuss the reality of it etc?
Sure, check my email in the channels about section.
oh, the ZX Spectrum screenie brought back memories - not sure if painful and joyful though 😂 a little bit of both!
By the way, simulation of flying without the physical effects of air currents and accelerations is like a marine simulator without feeling the waves. Good fun for views, procedures, but a far cry from the real thing.
Transducers, mate! :-)
They make a world of difference without breaking the bank.
With a DOF unit, and SimHaptics through an amp with some tactile transducers (bass shakers), its much more realistic than just on a stripped pc desktop.
Thanks for the video. Greatly appreciated. Completely agree you can never repeat the physical environment in a desktop sim. Having said that, can get some feedback with decent transducer setup (ground roll, turbulence, ground effect) which does add to the immersion. Certainly on my setup.
Although not 100% the answer, I would suggest a good quality VR headset and the DOF Reality motion platform; you then get to feel acceleration / deceleration / turbulence etc; and in MSFS 2024, the ground itself will be much more real...I can't afford a plane either but my setup is as real is it gets! Great video by the way.
Need to try VR
There are headshake plugins out there that can somewhat fake the feel you get in real life. However I do agree you can't quite get a perfect simulation. But for those of us who don't have tens of thousands to spend on real life flying, flight sim will do.
This is a kind of obvious comparison. Of course in a simulator you won’t get gravitational forces, for that you have to be in the air. A simulator with a good 6 degrees motion rig can give you a lot pf that feeling you get in a real airplane, but of course there is no gravitational forces that will mimic the real world.
I like to add that learning to fly in flight simulator is a real thing. I did it, I got my ppl at 43 hours over 2 years. I wasn’t able to fly every week, sometimes I couldn’t fly for months. The sim kept me constant and saved me a lot of money.
100% agree but what I'm trying to show is not a negative for MSFS but a factor that every real world pilot uses when flying especially light aeroplanes. It's a missing element that makes flying a real aircraft actually easier than the sim and I just wanted to give simmers (and I am one of them) that (obvious) info. Without movement MSFS is really a cockpit procedural trainer which it does fantastically well.
Trim. Thousands of hours on flight sim and I still struggle to trim the plane nicely.
And the most important thing, in MSFS you don't have the fear to fail and kill yourself 😅
That adds another element to real flying, you can't 'F' it up :-)
I do agree with your comments in general, I’m a real pilot too, and I’m just starting to use a simulator, I used to find them very boring. Now I built one with Virtual Reality, this technology takes care of most of your observations. Also, now you can even add one of those moving seats and the pads, which combined with the VR really makes you feel you are flying the real thing
Very Nice vidéo😊😊😊
Thank you for showing us the differences, it was really nice to see everything nicely summed up in the video. :) One thing I would highlight is the editing. As an editor, I would recommend not to cut clips every 3 seconds; you could keep them longer. While it's true that our Gen Z attention span can be short (which I have :D), we also appreciate smooth and longer shots.
Your video was great though, exciting to watch and very well written! I was amazed with the drone shots (if they were captured by a drone).
Thanks Mike, I must admit I am guilty of the quick editing technique and although it works well for some shots I am a bit too generic with the cuts and sometimes it’s just not required. Appreciate the feedback sir.
You should do the same comparison when Microsoft Flight Simulator 2024 releses this November 👍
wonder if anyone else noticed the Synology in the baggage area.
Lol yes believe it or not a follower gave me that when I was moaning about how much hassle storing footage was :-) Good spot sir.
I find light aircraft very twitchy compared to either the real world sky ranger or the Ikarus. Shame we dont have either in the sim as it would help me practice manoeuvres in the aircraft I am flying
Agree with what you say no feel in flight sim 2020. Would like to know if anyone have used the force feedback yoke's? I did gain a PPL back in the eighties and did visit Andrewsfield so I can't be that far from you. (trained at Southend) When I retired I treated my self to a few hours on a British airways 737 sim with a BA training captain at Heathrow, now that is what I call a sim. (don't think I will get one of those though as I dont have the odd £14 million to spare)! Last night I did use the new PMDG 777 aircraft and flew manually from Southend to Exeter and managed to a greaser of a landing though set up the approach much to early so skimmed across part of devon at 1000ft with flaps and gear down! (beginners luck) Another thing with MSFS not so easy to spot the airfields (unless markers used) Very interesting video thanks.
It is relatively cheap and easy to add vibrations to your seat. For G-force simulation, though, a full motion platform is required. Which is a much more expensive proposition
The problem with flight simulators is when you crash you don't die IRL
Yeah, there is that :-)
I've been flight simming since a teenager... around my 25th Birthday I had a "flying gift certificate" given to me. I was really excited but sadly the flight was nothing like I expected. It was a hot summers day, you could feel the turbluent warm air, the cabin was boiling and I very quickly became nauseous, so bad that I had to give up any opportunities to fly the aircraft. I never get motion sickness in a car so I was really annoyed. The pilot told me to look out far to the horizon so my brain could get relate with my position which did help a lot. He also said its common to feel like this "initially" in a small aircraft and that the body quickly gets used to it.
i am a flight student in Florida and this pretty much sums up what ga feels like, you do eventually get use to it thought after a long time.
You do get used to it. I threw up early into my training on a hot summer day in the pattern.
The biggest thing that helped was the XC flights especially the solo ones!!
Love your video, but give a chance to X-Plane, and you will get better realistic physics.
Fs20 is a good game that's invite normal people to get the first experience on a simulator.
Thanks for the tips!
Excellent vid. Comparing my PPL days to flying the 152 even in VR in the sim, the subtle (or not so subtle) effect of the atmosphere on the airframe, which can be quite pronounced, is the main difference for me.
Oh and A2A are indeed fab. The Comanche is highly recommended. And as part of our Virtual Airline we’ve replicated a tour of some of your favourite air strips. Once it’s tested and ready to go will tag you (somehow 😀)
Yes please let me know Mark.
Same with racing. I can get a sort of base from a sim so Im not completely new when I turn up at the track but its nothing like the real thing.
If I’ve not flown in ages fsx is handy to remember dial and switch locations. Practise emergency’s , check lists etc.
I’ve added a quest 2 Vr headset which is really good for ten mins then I get sick 🤢