More Engagement is NOT Always Better? - New DT 350 and 240 EXP, Compared
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- Опубліковано 3 сер 2021
- We take a look at the Ratchet mechanism that makes the 350 such an amazing hub, as well as the newer Ratchet EXP design that the ultra-lightweight 240 hub runs. We also examine what has changed between the new and old versions, along with helping decide which is right for you.
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Link to DT's breakdown of pedal kickback:
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Reliability is key and I've been a long time user of DT350s after a lesser quality brand blew up on a descent and resulted in me breaking my pelvis, wrist and ribs when the hub went fixie for a moment after bearings and pawls failed and jammed the internals. Prior to microspline I was also a fan of DT making steel freehub bodies available to avoid cassettes notching the splines and making cassette switch-out difficult and suspected creaking - this, at least, is no longer a concern as the microspline freehubs are steel. I've never been a huge fan of ultra-noisy hubs and high engagement has never been a thing that mattered much. After seeing and feeling what a lesser quality hub can cause (crash/injury), overall quality has been the goal and DT350s have given me confidence.
Why aren't you saying what that lesser quality brand is? I think others and myself would like to avoid going through what could be a life altering crash if possible.
Yea what lesser brand is this? Oem hubs on low spec bikes?
Please state what brand of hub wrecked you.
He didn't state what brand maybe he just made it up
@@GhettoSuguru bruh people don't lie on the internet, especially UA-cam comments ... What's wrong with you??
🙃
I am a big fan of the simple ratchet design because it simply works even in very neglected state. you basically would need to throw in a handful of dirt to make it not work, especially the 18t 350 version. most pawl based systems are way more prone to slipping/creaking/jumping when not held in tiptop state. and if its time to service them its super simple to just pull out the ratchet(s), clean them, and throw them back in with a bit of grease. never had problems with the 350/240 versions and use them on all my wheelsets regardless of road, gravel, commuting or mtb.
They're phenomenal! A great option, no matter what type of riding you do.
- Dan at Fanatik
Thanks for the video, Dan. You made it very easy to understand the differences between the hubs and your voice sounds just fine. Good job.
Thanks for explaining pedal kickback in a super simple way. It’s a concept that I think can get over complicated really fast.
Agreed. It's not generally much of an issue, but it comes into play here and there. Mostly I just wanted to talk about how these hubs work, which I think is pretty cool.
Cheers - Dan at Fanatik
I’ve had countless sets of Dt hubs over the years, from 180s all the way to 440s and never had a hint of trouble. I can’t say the same for Hopes and Chris Kings which have given me everything from niggles to catastrophic failure… Quality stuff
One thing that would be cool, is if DT started anodizing their hubs to make them look as cool as they perform. Most parts i choose black, or raw, but my hubs and stem, i prefer matching anodized beauty!
Agreed. Black get old.
they sell decals, but yeah ... they should do matte black w purple and black with orange. Maybe an exclusive Halloween edition. I've been pitching that to CK and i9 for 2 years and they've both said they have something similar coming, but so far nothing. I wonder if it's cause current supply issues.
I'm not a huge i9 fan, but people would seriously lose their shit if they made a matte black with a shiny purple logo.
I've bought two XM1700 wheelsets specifically for the OEM 350 spline hubs that are silver in the center.
Great product video and I see your continued improvement. Please keep it up.
Thanks!
- Dan and Doug and the rest of us at Fanatik
Great video! I've been a 240/350 rider for years, and love them. I just recently broke that tradition with I9 Hydras, but ONLY due to the fact I couldn't find any DT's with the HG cassette body (running gates cog).
Simplicity, serviceability and durability are factors I look for in a hub. It's the reason I went with DT Swiss 350 hubs on both my mountain and gravel bike. Performance upgrades were the 36T star ratchet and ceramic 6902 off-road bearings from Boca Bearings. The DT Swiss rep said the 36T is more durable than 54T and the difference in engagement is slight. Couldn't be more pleased.
Cheers, glad you're digging them!
Thicker grease will reduce the ratchets longevity. You need a thin coat of "DT Swiss Special Grease" (red version for ratchets) for maximum engagement and longevity.
Always use manufacturer's recommended driver lubes no matter what hub OR be willing to pay the price! Use the wrong or too heavy a lube and it may start freewheeling in both directions! Too thin a lube and it won't last. Walking sucks! Waiting for parts/service might be even worse.
Take care of your junk! Properly! NOTHING lasts forever!
@@rollinrat4850 the rat has spoken
I've been riding DT for several years, amazing hubs! classic 240s and the new EXP seems just as good.
Learned so much thanks to this video. Thanks for educating us!!
Cheers!
- Dan P.
Love my Dt 350 hubs on 511 rims. Simple, solid and something i dont need to think about too often.
Part of the reason i went Dt 350 is its a quieter hub. The 18 tooth is quietest. I upgraded to the 54 and found its quite a bit louder. Just something to consider. Nothing like a Chris King or I9, but noticeable. A diet of thicker grease seems to be working - with no pops or skip so far.
Thicker grease will reduce the ratchets longevity. You need a thin coat of "DT Swiss Special Grease" (red version for ratchets) for maximum engagement and longevity.
I have never noticed any difference in pedal kick-back from moving to a high engagement hub nor has it affected my suspension performance as far as I can tell. I guess it depends more on suspension kinematics
It absolutely does differ from bike to bike, thanks for pointing that out!
- Dan at Fanatik
This pedal kickback explanation was over simplified to make a marketing argument, IMO. When you are in a small rear cog and/or your rear wheel is spinning fast (both typical for DH) pedal kickback quickly becomes a non issue.
@@brandydog47 The argument that when your wheel is spinning at most realistic riding speeds pedal kickback wouldn't come into play is sound, but there are plenty of braking situations where the wheel is completely locked up. I just saw a good example of that in this video, figured I'd share: ua-cam.com/users/clipUgkxIcU0AGk-ip6fXizpyGox06ToMkioeAtv
- Dan at Fanatik
I built my first wheelset using dt 350 older model boost hubs. J-bend. Laced to Raceface ARC 28H rims. 27.5 and Sapim Race spokes. coming from 26" wheelsets on "budget" mtbs from decades earlier, this wheelset on a new hardtail was a revelation. Its remained bombproof and true after years of jump training etc.
I also own a new carbon rimmed bladed spoked hydra hubbed centrelock 29er wheelset. its lightweight and nice. Overly expensive to my mind.
I expect to build a wheelset with 240 dt hubs, exp, and decent carbon rims. I'd love to try Berd spokes too. I suppose if the hydras are similarly priced I may go that route. I go up, slowly, alot. Engagement helps most when you need instant torque.
I run the 54t ratchets on my HT now. So easy to service. I love the hubset. the 350 is PHENOMENAL. A big upgradable step up from most high end entry level oem offerings.
They are so simple, it's an awesome design. And yea, bombproof is right!
-Dan at Fanatik
TL;DR 350's. exception: going on an extra set of race wheels I only use for races. If only one set, avoiding the EXP ratchet racket.
Owner and maintainer of 180, 240, 350 and Hope hubs. After less than a single season all SINC ceramic bearings were beyond dead and gone. The 240 EXP ratchet lock ring key required an additional $100 piece to remove it, plus addition $50 bench vice to install on work bench to remove. If your shop does it, could cost about $100 + in bearings plus $50 -$250 to install, depending on city you live in. Getting the preload just right even with a bearing press was a bit tough tough to finesse. 350's and Hope hubs both have stood the test of time (over 3 years of the hardest use of all my hubs). The double sealed steel bearings on the Hope hubs honestly feel like they get better with time.
I'm a big fan of my Bontrager Rapid Drive 108POE. There isn't a huge difference from the stock 54T but the little less slop is great for tech climbing!
I've had 240s, 350s and Hydras ... I like 350s (w 54t) best on my enduro, which I use mostly at bike parks. I like the simplicity, durability and feel ... And the 54t I pretty much have just cause I like the sound.
Great video!
I was the one in fact to first announce the engagement failure of the EXP at the mtbforum.
Was a big disappointment to buy such an expensive item and having such problems…
Hopefully it is now fully solved, though DTSwiss should have handled this differently
Agreed. Bit of a stain on their otherwise stellar reputation.
Cheers - Dan at Fanatik
@@FanatikBikeCo What are the odds of getting an older version if you buy now or going forward? Anyway to tell which version you have?
Excellent review. As for what I look for is reliability, less noise and higher engagement. Unsprung weight can be an issue but most hubs are separated by only a few grams so it’s basically a toss up. I’m not out winning any World Cup races.
Big fan of DT350s. glad to hear the EXP teaching problems are solved. Would like to try silent hubs though. Thinking of trying a Shimano XTR rear hub.
Ive ridden the hell out of decades old XT and XTR and Dura Ace QR hubs. Even older Campagnolo Records. They're wonderful, very smooth and fast, very quiet and reliable as long as you overhaul them regularly. Let the bearings get gritty or ride with cones mis-adjusted and they WILL die quickly. Far too many riders IGNORE their bearings! I repair lots.
LEARN how to use cone wrenches, how to flush and relube cassette bodies and make perfect adjustment. NOTHING lasts forever! Shimano makes the best valued hubs on the market. I don't know much about the new microspline hubs. My old ones haven't worn out yet!
I've been on a 350 for years with the last 5ish being on the 36T ratchet, which is all the engagement that I need...... I'm not a fan of the new EXP design though.
Instant engagement and silent make Onyx hubs perfect for me. I don't like slack when I'm pedaling.
Also, I can now hear the traction my tires are getting and if they start to slide. Very hard to hear with loud hubs.
Love loud hubs ... BUT I like em less and less. Still like em, but I guess the novelty of it wore off a bit, and one thing that might eventually get me to go with Onyx is sometimes I'm trying to hear other parts of my bike for whatever reason, and they make that kinda difficult. Heard nothing but good things about em though. Right now I got 350s on the DH and CKs on the trail bike ... Been eyeing Unions and might try Onyx with em, we'll see what the Christmas bonus looks like though!
What did you have before the Onyx? And do you know how they are with durability, reliability and serviceability?
Good point on the audibility of tire traction. It's a good signalling so to become more aware of body positioning on the bike during engagement.
@@topspot4834 My Intense has Chris King hubs (they are loud) and riders come up to me and say your hubs sound so awesome.
My response is always "Yeah that sound gets old after a while". My Evil has the silent Onyx hubs.
@@believe8263 That's funny, nobody's ever mentioned my King hubs. My King hubs stay quiet when I simply flush out and lube the driver more often. When they get a bit noisier, that's when I overhaul 'em. I use the CK ring drive lube. You can experiment with different lubes to make them louder or quieter. Its a very quick & simple process requiring simple tools. It takes 15 minutes at the most.
My King hubs all purr nice and quiet until I'm coasting over 20mph.
All that said, I'm a long time fixed gear mtb and road rider, as well as a singlespeeder. So I don't coast on any of my bikes very often. My habit is to pedal always if my pedals aren't going to bang into the rocks and logs.
I think this shows the laughable thing about riders and their demand of noisy hubs, high POE, spin tests etc....Coasting on your bike will NEVER get you very far. Unless you're riding at a ski resort or shuttling, you're going to need to PEDAL for much more time than you ever coast. POE only makes a real difference when you're ratcheting the pedals thru techy sections and rock gardens, trials style.
I also ride several much more affordable pawl type hubs like Shimano's and Campagnolo. They work just fine and last a long time as well. But ONLY when you overhaul and MAINTAIN them often!!
I bought CK stuff for the ultra high bearing quality and sealing ability. Nobody else on earth makes hubs with bearings that last virtually a lifetime! Nobody else even makes their own bearings! CK even produces their own balls! I don't believe anyone makes a stronger driver than CK either. CK drivers grip tighter the harder you pedal, until the hub shell bursts that is! In the way a CK driver engages, you could call this a 'circumference' of engagement, rather than mere points of engagement. I think CK claims their driver can withstand 600 horsepower. 300 hp would be insanely strong considering a strong human puts out less than 1hp.
Im a retired aerospace and medical device machinist. I watched a mechanic at a shop completely disassemble a CK hub to the bare shell while I observed. I was very impressed and I bought it on the spot. Chris King was also a medical device machinist before. It really shows. I'm very familiar with this kind of quality. There is no higher quality than medical or aerospace manufacturing because human life is critical. Everything is documented and traceable. Ive built this sort of quality myself. That hub is now 27 years old. I bought it not long after they started making hubs. I had his headset for about 10 years before. I'd already seen the bearings. Ive never replaced a single part in my first hub! Well over 100000 miles on it. Ive bought three more sets of CK hubs used, some quite ignored and contaminated. I was able to flush out and restore them all of them to good working order. I think this shows the high quality as well. You don't even 'need' to buy them new! Even then, I think CK's high price new is well justified when they last as long as they do. What would be a better value? I overhaul my CK hubs less than once a year and they rarely ever really need it!
Ive also a run a wheel building/repair business for 30 years. I have overhauled lots of blingy, fancy, overpriced, so called high end hubs. I know that lots of these could use much better machining, inspection and quality standards. Ive measured their tolerances and many failed according to manufacturing industry bearing standards. These are published engineering standards available to anyone who looks. They are not cheap standards to apply! For this kinda money, that folks pay for blingy junk, I think that's unacceptable.
how quiet and durable are the two things on the top of my list after that if i can get parts on a road trip and how modular as to not have to buy a new set up whenever a new "standard" pops up.
Know your style. Know your bike suspension design.
For sure - to get the most unimpeded movement in the rear suspension, you don't want to hinder the movement with pedal kickback. For freeriders who want to be able to slow to a crawl on top of a feature, then punch forward to clear the rear wheel - you want high engagement like 102.
I like my Spank Hex Drive for my trail and park rides. I upgraded from a 20 POE generic hub to 102 and I found the pedal kickback helps me stay in control - less pedal slips because of more pressure on landing. I hope I don't snap the chain ... maybe another reason for DH riders to use lower POE hubs.
I wanted to hear your thoughts on going from 18 to 54 points of engagement for road use. How much additional drag would you think that it would cause. I am looking for the loudness, but keep hearing about Drag???
Try the Sprag clutch design of the Onyx hubs. Amazing and silent, and instant engagement . I do love All things DT Swiss though!
OoOo first time seeing the EXP design, I like!
the 350 with 36t is bulletproof. As much as i sometimes yearn for a few more engagement points, it really doesnt impact my wider riding
I have been using dtswiss 350(striaght pull) hubs on both of my bikes for while and loving it. Any advantage using straight(looks better) pull hub vs j bend?
Straight pull spokes are less commonly available in shops. You might wait awhile to order a single spoke for a repair.
Most good shops have dozens if not a hundred j bend spokes lengths/types on hand or can cut to order.
If you're ever traveling far away or on a big riding trip, this is a big issue.
If you ever change to different rims, spoke calculations are much more difficult on straight pull hubs. Often very frustrating and a waste of my time.
Ive built custom wheels as a small business for 30 years. I almost refuse to use straight pull spokes. My wheels very rarely break spokes because of careful design and attention to the smallest detail. J bend are so common everywhere and they're plenty strong and well proven over decades. Besides, vanity is just dumb when prioritized above function.
Also, ALWAYS use brass nipples. Alloy doesn't save much weight! Brass lasts way longer and can't be compromised by leaked Stan's sealant! Ive seen entire wheels destroyed by the ammonia in Stan's more than once! DONT use Stan's except in a pinch!!
A silent, stiff hub with easy serviceability is on top of my list.
I wanted to go for the Onyx Vesper, but I got insecure about the possible drag on my drivetrain and so the performance (suppleness) of my DVO-suspension. Especially whilst braking on DHs in steep technical terrain. After going for a Newmen's Fade hub (36 poe, so 10° engagement) on my Ibis Ripmo (DW-Link), I never felt my rear suspension feeling smoother on fast & steep tech stuff (EWS-tracks of Dolomites). Tech climbs also seem to not require any more engagement points anymore. So I still remain a bit unsure, until one day, I could swap out my rear hub, back to back, with a high engagement one and redo those climbs and descends, to be able to compare it properly..
Cheers! That's good to hear, and have fun experimenting!
- Dan at Fanatik
On my Ripmo AF I bought with the stock ibis branded hubs and wheels, then I upgraded to bontrager line elite 30 carbon rims with the Bontrager rapid drive 108 hub and noticed the better engagement right away and would go back to the stock 3 pawl hub ever.
@@tonykasunic1 So, do I understand correctly, that you like the ~ 3° engagement and don't notice much of a pedal kickback?
Does 2022 HG freehub comes in steel? I think I read before that the old vs new bearing position have been moved outward more or something. What about the QR end caps for boost and non boost to QR, front and rear, are they the same? Planning to buy the pre 2022 350s because of cheaper price. Is the Glossy paint the only bad thing about it? Is it also true that the centerlock hubs have smaller bearing sizes than the 6 bolt versions? Thanks a lot! You are the best on this technical stuff!
Have you guys tried a couple of the same bikes with a high engagement hub, vs a lower engagement hub? And if so, does it feel different suspension wise?
some people notice it, some dont. theres a reason most pro enduro/downhill racers are running o-chains.
I destroyed the metal ratchets on my dt swiss… not sure how.. now I have the 360 … love it!
Did you ever service them? Lots of riders ignore their hubs and bearings until it's too late. As a mechanic I KNOW, nothing lasts forever.
Ive seen one DT star ratchet break under a strong road racer but the hub was seriously abused and neglected over many years. I seen many 'lesser hubs' destroyed by ignorance and misuse.
Like my Hell's Angel neighbor used to say: "You gotta take care of yer shit!"
Sprag clutch on the Onyx hubs has a soft engagement that may be beneficial for FS bikes in some circumstances .
It is the hard clunk on low engagement hubs I find annoying when climbing, not worth any DH benefits IMO.
There's a stream crossing on one of my local trails and when the water is high (20 Cm / 8") the fast engagement of my hub keeps my feet dry.
I've got Chris King on my Ibis and I9 on my Pivot.
That's a great reason to go with a high engagement hub, I know exactly what you mean! - Dan at Fanatik
Totally agree with the assessment. But, using footage of a Dreadnought is not the best since it pretty much has no kickback with the high idler.
Good catch!
I value reliability and serviceability and will pay a premium for it. I've never had any issue with DT hubs. I've worn out pawls before and they are a PITA to work with. Regarding the 240 noise... I would think that having one engagement ring fixed to the internals will transmit that high frequency noise into the shell and out to where we can hear it. When both rings float in between two springs, much of that noise is dissipated internally within the shell. Makes me wonder what problem they are trying to solve by fixing one side. cool shirt, btw. I'd rock that.
They did that primarily for weight savings. Your reasoning makes sense to me! We don't have many size options left, but I've got small and extra small shirts left. We're working on getting new ones. www.fanatikbike.com/products/fanatik-logo-tee-1
Cheers - Dan at Fanatik
Was the issue with the newer hub star ratchets, just on the 240 models or both the 240 and 350 hubs?
Just the 240 I think. The 350 has not EXP.
That is an interesting argument. I'm going to upgrade the 370 on my Switchblade to the LN 36t upgrade.
I feel like I'm taking crazy pills when people "demonstrate" the kickback issue by dropping a bike on the ground. When the wheel is rolling this doesn't happen in any way the matters in the real world. Kickback when the wheel is rolling would only happen when the suspension travels far enough and fast enough to catch up with, and pass the hub's engagement, but usually suspension speed and travel is tied to wheel speed, so the faster you're going the less likely kickback will happen. The only scenario in which you might experience kickback is some kind of low speed drop, or trials situation, in which case you would be barely moving and kickback isn't affecting what 99.99% of riders consider "suspension performance" anyway.
I think it's a great demonstration of what pedal kickback is-it very clearly shows this phenomenon's effect, although it does, as you point out, control for some real world variables.
DT's own public assessment (their full explanation in the link following), is that "if the angular speed of the hub is higher than the speed of the freehub body generated by the chain tension, there will be no pedal kickback or negative influence on your suspension. But it is not easy to reach this critical speed, because the faster you ride, the higher the possibility of harder compressions and the faster the freehub body speed reached by the chain." - DT Swiss (www.dtswiss.com/en/wheels/wheels-technology/engagement-angle-technology )
There's a very in depth assessment of pedal kickback, suggested by commenter Shanerr J and produced by Trail POV , here - ua-cam.com/video/XGxYZ9Rh2t4/v-deo.html
Steve at Vorsprung also has a great video that further elaborates on some real-world scenarios involving pedal kickback, here - ua-cam.com/video/grNUgu0H9YA/v-deo.html
As I mentioned in the video, I personally do not find the effects of high or low engagement hubs to really change much in how I ride or how much fun I have when I'm riding.
The only place I find kickback to be a bore is when I'm riding scree lines, in which my rear wheel is locked almost the entire time. In those instances I often have to pedal backwards to re-clock my cranks and get them parallel to the ground again part of the way through the run. This is a very niche type of riding/situation though.
I do have a number of friends and coworkers who complain about pedal kickback, and they describe it in high speed, steep situations where they are heavy on the rear brake and where the wheel does in fact stop moving from time to time while still encountering harsh obstacles at high moving speeds. I am not knowledgeable enough to figure out whether a 36t engagement hub work better for them/their bike/their riding than an infinite engagement one, but I don't profess to be. I am a fairly trusting individual, and am inclined to trust the bright minds at DT Swiss. If they say that this comes in to play in mountain biking in some circumstance, I'd like to think they aren't fabricating it for marketing purposes.
Thanks for bringing up some good debate, and thanks for watching!
Cheers - Dan at Fanatik
I used to race XC in the 90s and I was still using a Suntour freewheel instead of a free hub; and I never had any idea how many points of engagement those freewheels had. I was still damn fast. The fact is it didn’t matter.
@@FanatikBikeCo The Trail Pov video is good, it describes the math involved when looking at a static system for the majority of the video, then at the end when it introduces speed into the equation it says the same thing I did, that the suspension rarely moves fast and far enough when going a low enough forward wheel speed for kickback to happen. The Vorsprung video says basically the same thing towards the end as well.
The DT link doesn't work, but "I'm inclined to trust the bright minds at DT Swiss" is kind of an appeal to authority. An authority that's trying to sell their hubs now with this new angle that they're better against the kickback boogeyman than competing high end hubs? I like DT hubs, they don't have to "engage" in this desperate marketing to sell a few more hubs.
I don't even care about high or instant engagement hubs, I just think it's silly to show a bike dropping on the floor and imply that that's a problem that's happening when you ride, and here's the solution to this problem that you can buy from us. Then when you site your sources that dive beyond the static bike drop, they arrive at the conclusion that this isn't a problem at all for the overwhelming majority of riding scenarios.
That's cool that your friends and coworkers are riding down steep, fast trails with the rear wheel locked up, and it's gnarly enough that it's kicking their pedals back enough to complain to you about. I would love to see video of that.
@@keirfarnum6811 Amen.
Oh, and I fixed the link to the DT website. It was trying to use the parenthesis at the end as part of the URL. I'll put it here as well:
www.dtswiss.com/en/wheels/wheels-technology/engagement-angle-technology
Great summary.
I just got my DT Swiss 240 2023 year model. I understand this hub comes with the 36 t Ratchet. When I try the engagement lock it feels that there’s some idle space before the ratchet engages. Is that normal ?
I like a more silent hub. I also want a lower engagement hub to prevent kickback so Onyx is off the list. Can I apply more grease on the DT Ratchet to lower the sound of the hub?
Absolutely! The DT hubs are still not very loud, relative to the Hope Pro4, for example.
- Dan at Fanatik
Dan I like your videos, it might help if you focus/zoom to smaller components and give it a few seconds air time. I climb a lot, so high engagement looks appealing, but what comes up must go down (not downhill style), so in between is good for me. I a ppreciate your passion.
Thanks Paul, I appreciate hearing that! We will absolutely take your advice into consideration for upcoming videos!
I think in between is just fine! At the end of the day, you get used to what you're on, and for engagement in particular, it doesn't make a massive difference for most of us!
- Dan at Fanatik
The head of marketing at DT Swiss needs a raise. To claim low engagement reduces pedal kickback is clever, but comical.
If you've never had high engagement, ignorance is truly bliss, but after having Onyx and now Hydras, low engagement hubs are one of the first things I noticed when getting on a bike with them.
Not only do they not "klunk" when starting a pedal, but the ability to back pedal and work technical features is unmatched.
Great hubs though!
Just bought my first set of hydras getting laced as I type! I guess I'll find out if this so called pedal kickback is BS or not.
What's that oil slick hub in this video?. Ty
A limited edition DT 240 EXP! Pretty slick 😉. They are no longer available, unfortunately.
Cheers - Dan at Fanatik
I'm looking to upgrade my DT 370 rear hub. Do I go with a completely new hub or should I upgrade the current 370 ?
Replacing the entire hub is hard, because you have to rebuild the whole wheel, which would likely require new spokes.
I recommend upgrading your 370 to the ratchet system (or if you already have that, maybe a higher engagement set of ratchets if that's what you're looking for).
Here is DT's video on moving that hub from a 3-pawl system to the ratchet system.
ua-cam.com/video/RfFBlLnW6sg/v-deo.html
Thank you kindly....
For me, it was a pure pleasure of learning to build own wheels. Not the cheapest solution but yea, 240 for a road bike are great. Though I'm not sure the RR511 were the best pick, since the wheels came out a bit heavy (tires, lite butyl tubes, rim tape and the quick release). Sure, they're fast...
It is a fun thing to be able to do yourself. Good on ya for figuring it out!
- Dan P.
it would be cool if I could convert my 6 bolt dt Swiss 350 hub to a centre lock one, I can't find any information online if I can simply buy the centre lock end piece to change it over
The center lock version uses a different hubshell so it’s not possible to covert it.
Correct, you can only go the other direction. Out of curiosity, why? 6-bolt rotors are so much more readily available and require only a multi-tool to remove?
- Dan at Fanatik
@@FanatikBikeCo It’s predominantly cosmetic, I prefer the centre lock looking Shimano rotors
340s are great, but I do prefer Hope Pro 4s, and RS4s for lighter work. Great vid btw
Actually, a 350 (271 grams) is lighter than a Hope Pro 4 (304 grams). Not a massive difference though, and they're both phenomenal hubs! We actually weigh all the components on our site (and list it on the product page) so that we can get a weight estimate for the Custom Bike Builder
Thanks, I'm glad you liked it!
- Dan at Fanatik
They're louder because the inboard ratchet is no longer floating. Its directly connected to the shell so it transfers the sound better
Ahh good call, that makes sense.
- Dan P.
If you ride a hardtail, this does not apply to you. Hardtail single speed, you want the Onyx! It was, however, an informative video.
Very true.
I’m a madman and ride full rigid (Jones Plus), do I disregard all the physics and just buy the expensive as hell Onyx? I’m wondering if they are as trouble-free as DT Swiss. Been riding a Hope Pro 2 on original bearings for 7 years no problem though. Dan at Fanatik please just tell me what to do for my next Jones. Ripping it up in Oly, WA and smirking at all these overbiked FS fools here in the meantime
@@greenyankee Do it! Onyx all the way on a hardtail. The added weight is a non-issue as far as rear-suspension performance. On full suspension bikes, additional un-sprung weight on the back-end (anything on the swingarm, including the rear wheel), has a negative effect on your suspension. For your hardtail, doesn't matter!
Guys, i need some Info. Does someone have had or still using the 1650 rims? Are they somewhere in between of the todays 1700 and 1501 rims? Am i right?
I'm not able to find out what those rims are in the aftermarket, sorry.
- Dan at Fanatik
Ultra high click hubs also tends to make shifting harsher compared to hub with arouon 30 clicks. My DT180 hub feels a lot smoother during shifting compared to my zipp's zr1 hub.
I live in New England, MA! I'm FuhkT. Need a "Does it All" hub... Upgraded DST 370? 18 pawl, to 54 ratchet. Hope it works.$130.00 for parts!!!! Good lord!
I blew up my DT Swiss 350 hub three seperate times in 4 months. The hub was brand new on my '22 Transition Patrol. The first time I was trying to pedal off a drop and went over the bars because the hub allowed the pedals to shoot forward. Each time, I was shredding the internals. Metal shavings would be present upon opening the hub. The bike shop is going to give me retail replacement value to get a hub of my choice after dealing with DT's warranty (they take forever with warranty issues). DT Swiss has also acknowledged company wide issues with their current ratchet system. These are junk in my opinion.
Man, the 350? That's a bummer to hear. Historically they have been phenomenal. Glad the shop is able to get you sorted.
- Dan at Fanatik
Is that new ratchet system ebike compatible?
They have their new Hybrid series designed for E Bikes in the 350 which gets beefed up internals and hubshell. They also use 2.34mm spokes.
Reading the responses people don't understand the "kick back" issue....
100
All about the downs for me. I would take lower engagement all day to have smoother suspension.
Well 8 months in I don't have any issues with the Chinese 60t hollow ti coated star ratchet hubgrade on my 350's 😂
31$ cdn you should carry this stuff guys
I have the Mavic ID360 hub and occasionally it jams, the dirt build is more than the force of the spring so I have to clean it out. Bloody grimy British weather
regarding POE, the 18 pt POE definitely has a frustrating amount of slop. The crank arm clanging forward doesn't feel great. 36 alleviates this somewhat and is fine for road/gravel, for MTB I want a little more though.
That's actually on the point.....i was telling the same shit to my bikeebuddies all the time....they concidered me as old fashioned by the choice of freehub bodies.....now they gonna make eyes 🤣😂
Loud hubs keep hikers from being surprised when I ride passed them and also, I hope, prevents another cyclist from crashing into me when trails meet. I do have a bell but wished my hubs were as loud as Chris Kings.
I never listen to what people say when they make their claims as to what hub is the best. I found out after using Mavic years ago their hubs suck. Then I heard Industry 9 were the best. Got me a set of those and hated them the first time I had to remove the cassette. I use White Industries hubs now on all my custom built wheels and have never wanted anything else.
Dan, I just bought the I9 hydra wheel system from you guys. Sliver Hubs black spokes, yea, I'm that guy. Now I'm 100% freaked out. They told me they were Dan approved. What should I do?
I won’t ever go back to low engagement hubs for the simple reason that I ride all kinds of trails.
I have lots of i9 hubs without issues. To be honest I'm not sure the engagement is that important and I live in a very techy rocky area. And the hydras I found obnoxious in their sound. I'd say for best value...DT 350. For better engagement i9 1/1.
Use Dumonde Tech freehub grease over the oil. It makes the hubs way quieter
At this point, my I9 hydra is pretty dam easy to own, at at 140mm travel kickback has never happened.. No tools needed to grease, and i doubt itll need parts any time soon.
I have Industry Nine Hydra on all three of my bikes right now! They are great hubs, and I don't plan on replacing them anytime soon. I just think DT's Ratchet design is the coolest thing. It's so simple, I love it!
- Dan at Fanatik
@@FanatikBikeCo I can agree with you there. They are a great, reliable hub that can be serviced everywhere, even though they won’t need to be serviced often!
I just want the best click click click bong hub out there
Reliability vs. Price for sure
in terms of engagementhow many teeth does a 240xt have
36 teeth, unless you get the upgraded one, which has 54 teeth.
- Dan at Fanatik
Looking for the strongest hub for a high torque ebike but with sram xd.
I run Hydra hubs on reynolds blacklabel rims and have never noticed any increased kickback in my pedals. The Hydra is amazing when gonig through technical terrain.
The ratchet free wheels are really strong, like 300lb rider strong!
Ive seen strong racers break DT star ratchets when their hubs were neglected. In failing, I mean the ratchets cracked. Broke into pieces!
Ive never seen the driver fail in an abused/ neglected Chris King hub. Due to their design, it's practically impossible!
DT is much more common though and we service them much more often. DT350 is our go to for 'reasonably priced' custom wheel builds.
That said, I still ride a 30 year old DT Hugi hub as well as several well aged Kings. They're both quite nice hubs, I'll recommend them to my customers. I build and repair lots of wheels. Kings are the best hubs on the planet though. Hands down. Ive never needed to replace a bearing after over 100000 miles!
a big point you failed to mention is that onyx hubs dont cause any pedal kickback when going downhill. the sprags are not in contact with anything when not engaged
Wouldn’t pedal kickback engage the sprags in the same way as pedaling? I would think so! Try compressing your rear suspension and see if the pedals don’t turn.
i have the 240 exp hubs on my xc bike and if i had it to do over i would get the 2022+ dt 350. why? the 6902 bearing. the 240exp uses these dinky oddball sized bearings which none of the good bearing companies like skf, ntn or nsk make. you're stuck with DT for something decent or a junk generic like enduro. with the new 350 you can put very high quality bearings in them for $5-6 each if you buy from a major bearing supplier and the skf are better than the OE dt bearings. they can take a beating and still roll smooth
run 350s on the road and MTB. nothing beats em
No doubt a super reliable hub. There is a reason its gone largely unchanged for so many years!
Great information well presented but the music is not needed imo.
I wonder if anyone has tried to put a reverse freewheel design in the bottom bracket to eliminate kick back all together. Kick back would rotate the cranks in reverse so a design where the chainring could turn freely in reverse and engage when pedaling.
Or this could be just a stupid concept 😅
Hahaha, that's a fun idea. I think it practice it would be way too complicated for something that in reality is not much of a big deal.
Cheers - Dan at Fanatik
It’s the DAMN size‼️ DT is NO longer producing 135QR or 142TA HUBS‼️ Grrr… I’ve given up on Carbon full suspension CRAP MTB and gone to old school sweet riding steel hardtail frames with lighter weight rubber. These older bikes have 135QR or 142TA and not this Boost & Super Boost crap. I’m running a 27.5 x 2.6” rubber with 30mm internal width rim and still have room for more rubber with 135QR dropouts‼️I don’t race anymore (it became a 2nd job) but I still enjoy riding my MTB’s. So with a hardtail you learn to ride smoother by going around things in the trails. I know it’s impossible to miss everything but you will learn. My back & knees plus lack of fitness makes it so I need gears but riding is so much more enjoyable when you are on a lighter weight steel hardtail. Like climbing it’s a love hate relationship, you hate doing it but love it when you get to the top.
Very machined out
this must be a little secret
Anyone with high engagement and a dw link knows this.
When you eat Sean Dyche’s breakfast
DT Swiss is cool but the 240 exp has disengagement issues
They have addressed those. If you're having issues with yours, get in touch with the retailer you purchased it from, they'll replace the affected internal components.
Here's how to know if yours is affected:
www.dtswiss.com/en/ratchet-exp-maintenance-notice
Cheers - Dan at Fanatik
@@FanatikBikeCo Thanks for sharing that. I don’t have a 240 exp because of this issue, I ordered a wheel set last week and just went for something else. My brother has a wheel set he got this year with 240s. Over the past month he’s had disengagement issues, it ruins rides and he’s had to walk his bike a few times. This issue wasn’t that well publicised. It’s summer and some people will be missing out waiting for replacements or trying to work out what the issue is.
@@satchelofdoom1564 Bummer, that stinks. DT definitely could have handled it better. Hopefully he's able to get it resolved quickly and get out riding again.
- Dan P.
Yeah. Once you go DT ? And buy the tool kit? You'll never go back... just don't neglect your rr hub bearings. If you leave that drive ring in there for many years? You might never get it out. Take the drive ring out once ac year just to make sure its not corroded and now permanently bonded... like. Even if you put enduro ceramic bearings in that last 5 years? Take that drive ring out n regrease it
Love how the marketing contradicts itself. Low engagement is now good? Oh wait buy our expensive one worth more engagement. 350's are great. 240's are for when weight is more important then value.
There truly are suckers born every minute! This is a marketing rule and they know it as a fact!
Just IGNORE marketing bullshit. It's truly no better than propaganda, brainwashing or fake news. Marketing BS' entire purpose is to separate you from your money. I have marketing experts in my family.
Think and learn FOR YOURSELF! Seek fact and truth. Spend your money wisely!
@@rollinrat4850 the rat has spoken
When Metal Vocalists become DH riders
Why is the hub $518 damn haha
Onyx Vespers pimping
Value vs. what you get, the 350 weighs in....
Still like the I9’s, made in the USA baby… MERICA!
High pivot mtb
More clicks not more better? Huh???
🤯😂
New 240 not as versatile. I would give up weight differences to change engagement nevertheless if 240 inside ratchet goes bad bye bye hub!
It is easily swapped out (although not as easily as the 350, you do need a tool).
- Dan at Fanatik
350 for me. Quieter and reliable.
Engaugment and easy of maintenance.
Spoke count. 48 hole