Spoke threads are NOT cut, but they're rolled on. It's effectively just cold forging. Material is not taken away, it's merely moved about. I even have a spoke cutting and rolling machine at work for trimming spokes to size, the spoke is rolled between two dies using a big old lever and presses the threads onto the spoke like butter. It's also much easier to replace a spoke on the go if the tyre doesn't have to be removed. Great benefit for all you tubeless junkies. ;) Also, these hubs are nice and all, but there's two things often overlooked with an inexpensive Shimano hub. Cup and cone bearings take much better lateral loads than cartridge bearings, and forged hub flanges are much less resistant to cracking than CNC machined hubs (again down to that "removing material" process involved with machining). For the most part it just doesn't matter anymore though, but I've seen a few boutique hubs fail just because they were trying too hard to be exotic.
hi, hub bearing are not supposed to take lateral loads, on a bike unless you crashing the force is always perpendicular to the rotation axis of the wheel
@@paulc.7487 Ever been around a corner? Ever been out of the saddle tugging aggressively at the handlebars during a sprint? Ever ridden offroad on rough terrain? Ever seen somebody on a BMX at a skate park? Hubs are subjected to all kinds of lateral loads regardless of the type of bike or where it's ridden. You can't just say they not supposed to take a lateral load, because they're always going to be subjected to those loads whether you like it or not.
@@stormeporm Shimano have always forged their hub shells. They've got the tooling to do it, which makes the cost and time to produce one hub much smaller than any competitor using CNC machines etc. It's also more difficult for smaller brands to imitate them as the initial outlay of the tooling to forge hubs is considerably more expensive. This is also one of the main factors to Shimano using cup and cone bearings, the tooling is relatively expensive so that smaller brands can't replicate it.
Spokes such as DT Swiss, Sapim & Pillar do NOT have cut threads. They are rolled threads, formed from the body of the spoke. As a result of the forming process the threads are slightly larger in diameter than the body.
@@janeblogs324 no you get cut threads which removes material like when they are made by CNC or on a Lathe and then you have rolled threads that are work hardened due to the thread been formed by working the material rather than removing it. Rolled threads are better in every single way
There are engineering design reasons for everything. Rolled threads as said will be work hardened ( but they can also be annealed), you can cnc cut or manual lathe cut threads ( I have done many) you can then temper the material to suit, so no difference between the rolled threads. But sometimes there are different design reasons for having more pliable and even less stronger threads in order to break first therefore protecting more expensive parts. For example.
I love my i9 hydra engagement. Just be sure to stay on the cartridge bearing maintenance and check or change them regularly. With the precision and small tolerance of the pawl/drivering any bearing slop will transfer largely into the pawls. Mine started making a strange noise so I immediately tore it all apart and found the brake side bearing had some wear. New bearings and good to go again. Love the sound too.
That's the problem with obsessing on engagement points - you're relying on ONE pawl's engagement to carry the torque loads. Since it's not distributed through three or four pawls, it tends to want to move off-center. Any bearing slop only exacerbates the problem. I really don't get the obsession. I want good engagement, but also stout engagement. Something like DT or King provide 18, 36, 54 or more points of simultaneous, radial engagement that distributes the load, thereby reducing the possibility of failure.
@@dudeonbike800 exactly this. Load needs to be spread radially. Where you're 'designing flex to help you' you're just lunching your bearings and fighting against them. Starting is terrible on these i9's too and I could never recommend for UK use.
Built a custom set of wheels last winter with Christmas gifted I9 hydra hubs, couldn't be happier this season as it's my first local race series and the hubs have proved to help with the uphill. The noise coming down helps people know I'm behind them. I'm pretty sure helps keep wildlife away too. Thanks Doddy for the in depth look into I9 hubs.
I run DT Swiss wheels with the ratchet drive system it reminds me of the difference of using a high-quality ratchet that has less degrees between engagement in tight places it can be the difference between not being able tighten or loosen a bolt.
seriously? whoever does this, smeared it with grease to show how quietly the hub works, but in the end they turned on the music. I wanted to hear silence or at least something but not music.
So just watched, to me I think they just didn’t have the audio recorded of the hub in both ‘oiled’ and ‘greased’ versions. Hence why we heard the oiled version, but not the greased. Editor simply didn’t have the audio to add it so added music to fill the void.
I recently switched from a conventional hub to the i9. If the original hub hadn’t failed, I would not have given it a thought, but I LOVE the difference it’s made. No delay between pedaling and the wheel turning means better control up techy climbs, slightly faster acceleration out of corners, and (I think) better shifting. Lots of freehub oil keeps the sound to “fun” level, not overwhelming at all.
I have a regular Shimano hub on my 2022 (budget) hardtail, indeed it hampers every now and then when I put power through the cranks. At first I didn't know what it was but now I know it's the pick up from the hub, so thanks for the info!
High points of engagement was never that appealing to me since I'm not a climber. Pedal kickback is more of a nuisance than engagement. The only tech I really want in hubs is silent ones. I was so bummed when Shimano axed their development of lower tier silent hubs. The current options on a market cost as much as a decent used mtb.
@@toneloke7489 You are absolutely right, frame design contributes a lot. Still I feel like there's no drawback to a hub with sub 60 engagement points for downhill. I see people running complicated devices like the Ochain active spider to solve a problem that would rarely occur if they just ran a cheaper hub. For racers I get it, a lower number of engagement points is not a guarantee that you won't get pedal kickback 100 out of 100 times. But for the rest of us without sponsors I feel like it's a good compromise.
Yeah, that's the upside of lesser engagement hubs, less pedal kickback. I also find them smoother. I have 120T and 36T hubs. The times when your ride mates have to pedal while you're still freewheeling is such a treat. Lol There's another factor though, it depends how draggy your hubs are.
I thought the impact of a freehub on pedal kickback is eliminated once you reach a certain speed (that is pretty slow, like 15km/h)? Assuming a reasonably tall gear as well. O-Chain is to deal with pedal kickback introduced by frame kinematics more than the drivetrain, at least from what I understand.
Great vid! In 2020 I purchased a Evil The Following. In 2021 I saved up for a set of Industry Nine 315 carbon wheels with Hydra Hubs that completely transformed the bike. If you’re just hammering down mountains these hubs aren’t needed, but on technical rolling, rocky, rooty, trails like I ride HYDRAS ROCK!
Doddy great video! As always your information is spot on. If I could add something about the cheaper hubs. You touched on technical up hill climbs and sometimes hearing the cracking sound from the hubs. What happened with mine was after experiencing that the hub can actually jam. It can also take small chips out of the teeth of the pawls. My suggestion to anyone that has just bought a bike and spent a couple thousand dollars is to be aware of the limitations of the cheaper hubs and adjust your riding accordingly. It is also difficult to get parts for cheap hubs. In my case the bike manufacturer didn’t even know what hub was on my bike because they source hubs from several different suppliers and the all have the same part number but can be slightly different. I’m now rolling on I9 enduro S wheels with hydra hubs and they are amazing. I found that the almost instant engagement is only noticeable in situations where you want to put the power down quickly there’s just no lag. Also when you have to ratchet your pedals that .52 degrees is a game changer. I don’t notice any pedal kick back when descending rough sections of trail on my bike.
Ace video - well explained. The idea of noisy hubs is worrying. Noise is lost energy. And metal on metal = wear. It really doesn't matter if its soft steel or HS steel if both pawl and ring are the same - as hard steel will cut hard steel as soft steel will cut soft steel. Nice hubs, but the metallurgy will dictate they will wear faster. Its just science if the springs are too heavy. How come no one uses drawn clutch roller (Sprag) bearings specifically for one way drive? Lighter, cheaper and instant - and zero noise!
If I’m not mistaken the Onyx Vesper hubs have a sprag clutch system and are almost if not completely silent.Haven’t ran them but I’m looking at a new wheel set and I’m considering a set of the onyx hubs
@@kendorcruz9075 mind out with onyx though, the engagement system they use has a fair bit of flex. I.e if you pull the rear brake so the will doesn't spin, the cassette and cranks still spin a fair amount even if the rear wheel is stationary
Between a pawl system and a ratchet system, I'll chose the ratchet one. Easier to service and I dont have to worry about losing engagement because it does not have pawl springs.
I'd love to see a comparison between a (3/6/...)pawl-system and a ratchet system, ideally also compared with an Onyx-hub (silent hub with infinite engagement). from a technical/practical point of view with advantages/disadvantages on the different systems.
I have onyx hubs which I admittedly haven’t ridden that much due to an injury. But for however much I have ridden them I couldn’t be happier. I just love the pure sound of rubber hitting the trail without the annoying buzzing. The sprag clutch works flawlessly and gives you pretty much as instant engagement as possible. Hubs are a bit heavier due to the sprag clutch system tho. However, since that weight is at the center of the wheel, you don’t really feel the difference, at least I couldn’t. If you like quiet trails and have money to spare I highly recommend.
I really enjoyed Doddy's explanation of the hubs. I particularly enjoyed the talk about the flexing of the hubs. I had a set of Stan's wheels that always ate bearings, I guess that could be why.
Went from some Hope Pro 4's (which are bombproof amazing hubs) to some I9 Hydra's. I'm in love. Crazy how good they feel. Basically instant engagement. Sound amazing. And they look even better!
I'm in Utah on a Trance 29, so only 115mm of rear travel. I find the high engagement I get from the Hydra pretty critical for the techy/rocky climbs we get out here. I also take the bike to Moab quite a lot and use up all of that suspension. Chain growth is pretty minimal on this bike, so I don't feel any kick back. I kind of tune out the sound, but it's there, for sure. I also use grease to quite it down. I have used the older Torch model and I found the drive side bearings wore out really quickly. The Hydra design seems to have solved that issue.
Quality spokes don't have cut threads, they have rolled threads, where no material is removed. A double-butted spoke is also thinner in the middle than it is where the threads are.
i want to learn more about sealed bearing, some have 4 bearings some have more but 4 sound strange, to me the more the better. I want to see what's inside and how 4 bearing work inside
Hub is at the centre it's mass has a small effect on how quick or how much momentum your bike carries, these will only offer as you've stated quick engagement (assuming all hubs having similar lateral stiffness) For bike acceleration and deceleration having light rims etc.. matter as there is less force needed to input by the rider, but that does not equate to bike momentum as heavier rims once up to speed help produce your momentum it's just trying to slow them down 😄
I think you may need to look at the physics behind rotating mass and don't try to convince yourself otherwise. All race vehicles go for the lightest wheels they can along with the lowest un-sprung mass as even though it represents the lowest proportional actual weight of the total vehicle, it has the greatest effect on its performance.
@@zenscapeUKmedia that wasn't the question. Work in = work out in any energy system. I'm just equating heavier wheels to a flywheel. And anyway it has no real world cause and effect on our mtbing world worth considering. What you any many others describe is acceleration and deceleration not the actual momentum or stored energy within the system.
@@stevenconnor4221 Again look at the physics. In a perfect system you theoretically have 100%, so work in =work out as you say. But you rarely get anywhere near 100% as there are so many factors taking their slice of the force. To change speed, first you have to overcome the mass of the object (bike) you're trying to move. Newton's 2nd law (F=MA) describes force required (from the rider) versus Mass (the weight of the wheel) and acceleration (rate of change). Any MTB session is not about straight, constant speed lines. Its all about acceleration (to counter a hill or obstacle), wind, braking and then restoring speed. About 25 years ago, I had my first pair of hand-built wheels made. It wasn't a great bike, but boy those wheels transformed it into something special. Doddy is 100% right about great, lighter wheels. Best investment you can ever make to any bike. But hey, stick with your heavy flywheels if you're happy riding at a constant speed over flat terrain. Each to his own.
@@zenscapeUKmedia f=ma (or p=mv or E=0.5*m*v^2) prove his point that heaver wheels carry more momentum (more m, more f, p or E). true, it is harder to accelerate them (which he states) and won't help your suspension as you say. But the statement of the video, that lighter wheels carry more momentum is false. also light wheels can be unstable, why supposedly some downhill racers even add weight to their front wheel.
A freehub using a pawl system being described as a "super" hub... ha! I thought you'd at least look at something actually innovative like Onyx and their use of a sprag clutch for truly instant engagement through a mechanism that is literally friction-free and long proven for industrial durability. People only like pawls because they are loud, sort of like those annoying/arrogant folks that put loud exhaust systems on their cars
Love my i9 wheels! As a bigger dude the enduro 305 wheels have been bullet proof. I have had other wheels hold up to my abuse but they always show their weakness eventually.
Ahkshully...if you can accelerate and decelerate quicker, your bike carries less momentum. Unless you meant that compared to the wheel weight (angular momentum) the bike itself has an increase of linear momentum, but still the overall momentum is smaller
I've got a Stumpjumper Evo HT 29er 2012 model, life hadn't gone well since buying it, it's never had the opportunity to visit any proper trails, just been used on road and sometimes local woods (unfortunately though weather + horse riders tend to destroy the paths I'd like to tear through on the bike), but in hopes to soon start getting to some real MTB environments I've just revived it a bit, with a new uprated BB, Hope narrow wide chain ring, XT cassette, Hope jockey wheels, and new chain, but now all the vibration from the worn out drive train is dealt with I can feel how weak the rear hub seems, my local specialized concept store cleaned it out nd regreased it, but it's got a noticeable grumble when pedaling now. So looks like I want my first new wheel set in the near future, but I don't know enough to know what to buy, to be getting an upgrade without spending more than necessary.
Yeah, how come onyx doesn't get any limelight? When I got my Vesper's it was the biggest performance upgrade I ever did. Saved me from countless near-falls on technical terrain, and definitely less pumping required, super smooth rolling
I just had to compare these spokes to Berd spokes. Here it is if anyone is interested. I9 4-5g per spoke at about $1.10 usd. Berd. .4g Per spoke at $8 usd.
I'm running a 350 with the stock 18t and it's somehow in a world better than the 18t "bear pawls" hub it replaced. I'm not sure how that's happening, but I'm happy with it.
Not a fan of the spoke construction. It puts the delicate little thread onto the most expensive part whereas in a normal constrution both sides are on cheap replacable parts.
My i9 hydras were nice for engagement, except for the pawls skipping, the pawls wearing out the metal they are recessed into, and the rear axle snapping in half. Otherwise, they are great.
The only problem i have with the Hydras is that I can't make up my mind if I want em loud or silent. I just recently greased em with the hub grease because I THOUGHT I wanted them to be more silent. And now I miss the loudness 😭
Wish you’d guys cover the actual other system like DT Swiss. Not just variations on the same kind. Having said that, I’ve crushed one of the pawls on the regular 3-pawl system on my old bike. I now have a DTSwiss 370 with a 60 tooth ratchet which gives a full 60 points of contact at the time. Not 12. 🤷🏻♂️
Why screws in the hub flanges? 20 years ago, Pulstar was already producing straight pull hubs 🙄 never had a broken spoke, even with much higher spoke tension.
I know this is going to be contentious, but god I hate the way those I9 hubs sound. Can you make a video on trying to add grease so they're quiet, or at least quieter? Also, a major benefit to running stuff like DT Swiss is not only are parts easier to find, but something like the freehub is not absurd. The freehub of a Hydra is $230. The DT Swiss freehub is like $60-75, depending on if you have a pawl or ratchet version. In fact, I could literally buy an entire replacement DT Swiss for less than the price of the freehub of the Hydra, and DT Swiss is no slouch when it comes to quality parts
Soooo, to make my brand new DT240 DEG hub louder, change to freehub oil instead of grease? My mechanic and I removed the excess grease but left a fair layer still on and it's still almost completely quiet while riding below like 20+mph unless i also backpedal quickly. Lol. Kinda nice, but also kinda want more nouse than THAT tho. Maybe just wait for a few hundred miles to break in first, THEN go to freehub oil?
Same here, technical climbing is the biggest advantage I notice. If I ride a bike without instant engagement, it's really noticeable now, like my mountain bike with curly bars.
Depends on the stick. My rear wheel has eaten so many sticks it must think they're tasty at this point. Doesn't even go out of true. I have DT wheels though, not these i9 things.
Dumb question, but when climbing technical sections, and there is rear wheel hesitation, how to you know if it's the cheap hub points of engagement, or just a momentary loss of tire traction in back? You can have all the points you want in the hub but if the tire cannot get enough traction for the lower gear ratio you are in, the tire's going to slip and the bike (and pedals) will hesitate. Therefore, tire selection for climbing would not be a tad more important...?
I have the Hydra Trail 270... My trail bike is now lighter, faster and it sounds so cool... Even when I'm just walking it... Those tics I hear makes me frown on the outside like I'm tough, meanwhile I'm really smiling inside because I'm happy 😣😁
I have a set of Bontrager hubs on my Trek. They don't make noise at all and never have. Yet they never fail to engage. I've always wondered why they are silent. Too much grease inside the freehub?
Momentum= mass x velocity. So, if you change to a lighter alternative, you will have LESS momentum. (About 2:00, where you claim lighter = "carry more momentum")
I have onyx hubs but my rear rotor is jingling or rattling on bumps or is pretty strange. Maybe it always did but I could not hear it before. I think it is new though.
Doddy did mention that, however it's not as simple as that. It's a matter of probability. At the exact moment you compress the rear suspension super fast, the pawl can be anywhere on the drive ring with any hub. So if you have a super sloppy 15 degree engagement hub the pawl could still be right next to a tooth and engage instantly. It's just more likely with a faster engagement hub. But if you do the calculations for pedal kick back based on speed, you have to be going relatively slowly and compress the suspension super hard for the hub engagement to be a factor. The hub has to be spinning slower than the chain growth is happening and that's actually very rare.
OK, so let's just massively ignore the fact that i9 spokes are aluminum and as such 100% guaranteed to fail no matter how low the load you put on them is as long as you reach enough cycles. The grade they've chosen does has great tensile strength though, but only half the sheer strength of stainless.
Good video!!, i love the sound of those hubs!! and of course the performance. im from venezuela, but i live in peru now, how can i buy those hubs? at least the rear one, here in Peru there is no cycling store selling that brand. is there a website available to buy it? thanks in advance.
When I was a kid in the 60's we used to grab my dads empty gigarette packs and mount them on the seat stay with a clothes pin so the pack went into the spokes now that my friends was a high engagement noise lmao
those spokes can twist on high tension, because of drag on the threads and the distance between the threads and the niples its gonna be a tiny twist and this is not ideal for a precise fine tuning
The I9 wheelsets puts a lot of questionmarks over my head: -afaik aluminum has no „infinite fatique“ properties, despite steel, carbon or titanium. The spokes are destined to break even in theory. - High engagement has little benefits in mtb despite road or trials. On full sus it has even theoretical drawbacks (pedal kickback) - the rotating mass almost solely matters on the outside of the diameter. Physically the heavier the center (hub/cassette/disc) of the wheel is compared to the outside (rim/tire) the faster it will accelerate. - good bearings are nice, still all the drag comes from the seals… It’s a lot of money for a peace of mind with no actual benefits 🫤 Hope Pro4 ftw. Even a loon like me can service them.
I have Hydra hubs on my hardtail and Onyx on my full suspension bike, and I really can't tell a material difference in the engagement while riding. But the absolute silence of the Onyx hub is fantastic. All you hear is the noise of your tires on the trail. Well, maybe a tiny bit drive train noise, too.
@@kenannable4747 I used to run ONYX hubs on my race BMX, I'm having wheels made for my Mondraker Foxy XR as we speak, Onyx hubs and Halo Gravitas rims.
On The Other Hand... the placement of the ratchets on the inside of the hub shell, means the load bearings of the 'super hub' are Farther from the dropouts; in comparison to a basic shimano hub where the rachets are in the freehub body. that longer distance puts more bending stress on the axle. -they make up for it by going with a 12mm axle vs the 10mm of the basic shimano Still, this strikes me as a 'brute force' kind of solution vs cleverly spacing those bearings farther apart.
Hi, a noobie question so are this hub suitable for foldable bicycle or just for mtb or road bike? Sorry I got absolutely got no knowledge about bicycle 😅
4:28 So when engaged it is effectively 12 ACTIVE POE and 690 possible POE. This is really industry BS. DT Ratchet has, for example, 54 POE in engaged state and the contacting area is 100% (so it is in effect much secure connection). 12 active POE with contacting area of less than 10% is something else. It is like when you are talking often about contact area of the tire with the ground and not about number of knobs on that area but when it comes to hub engagement mechanism you are willingly and gladly effectively comparing apples to oranges.
@@deterrentdubz9116 Doddy is making commercial. Have nothing against it. I am just saying that so called "points of engagement" is really a misleading term.
I like my Onyx Vespyr better. But you are right, there are only 12 POE at any given moment. Also reliability of the pawls and smaller teeth surface under high torque is an issue; DT 54T ratchet suffers the same issue.
We need to consider the total contact surface area for all engaged pawls and the angle between pivot and face. Two teeth per pawl gives no more surface area than one deeper pawl.
OK I fully understand - new advanced technology is cool and we need progress to have better bikes. BUT do we really need thousands engage points in hubs?
@gmbntech #askgmbntech Hi Doddy! Since we're talking about hubs already. Would be nice if you make a video on premium hubs vs cheap online hubs (Arc, Koozer, etc.). Somehow these cheap hubs perform equally just as good. Tho, your point of views would be valuable.
Spoke threads are NOT cut, but they're rolled on. It's effectively just cold forging. Material is not taken away, it's merely moved about. I even have a spoke cutting and rolling machine at work for trimming spokes to size, the spoke is rolled between two dies using a big old lever and presses the threads onto the spoke like butter. It's also much easier to replace a spoke on the go if the tyre doesn't have to be removed. Great benefit for all you tubeless junkies. ;)
Also, these hubs are nice and all, but there's two things often overlooked with an inexpensive Shimano hub. Cup and cone bearings take much better lateral loads than cartridge bearings, and forged hub flanges are much less resistant to cracking than CNC machined hubs (again down to that "removing material" process involved with machining). For the most part it just doesn't matter anymore though, but I've seen a few boutique hubs fail just because they were trying too hard to be exotic.
How do you know/see that a flange is forged? Do all shimano hubs have forged flanges?
hi, hub bearing are not supposed to take lateral loads, on a bike unless you crashing the force is always perpendicular to the rotation axis of the wheel
@@paulc.7487 Ever been around a corner? Ever been out of the saddle tugging aggressively at the handlebars during a sprint? Ever ridden offroad on rough terrain? Ever seen somebody on a BMX at a skate park? Hubs are subjected to all kinds of lateral loads regardless of the type of bike or where it's ridden. You can't just say they not supposed to take a lateral load, because they're always going to be subjected to those loads whether you like it or not.
@@stormeporm Shimano have always forged their hub shells. They've got the tooling to do it, which makes the cost and time to produce one hub much smaller than any competitor using CNC machines etc. It's also more difficult for smaller brands to imitate them as the initial outlay of the tooling to forge hubs is considerably more expensive. This is also one of the main factors to Shimano using cup and cone bearings, the tooling is relatively expensive so that smaller brands can't replicate it.
Spokes such as DT Swiss, Sapim & Pillar do NOT have cut threads. They are rolled threads, formed from the body of the spoke. As a result of the forming process the threads are slightly larger in diameter than the body.
Dang, all threads are meant to be rolled, especially bolts
@@janeblogs324 what do you mean they are “meant” to be rolled, emphasis on the meant?
@@janeblogs324 no you get cut threads which removes material like when they are made by CNC or on a Lathe and then you have rolled threads that are work hardened due to the thread been formed by working the material rather than removing it. Rolled threads are better in every single way
I thought all spokes had rolled threads. Maybe not.
There are engineering design reasons for everything. Rolled threads as said will be work hardened ( but they can also be annealed), you can cnc cut or manual lathe cut threads ( I have done many) you can then temper the material to suit, so no difference between the rolled threads. But sometimes there are different design reasons for having more pliable and even less stronger threads in order to break first therefore protecting more expensive parts. For example.
I love my i9 hydra engagement. Just be sure to stay on the cartridge bearing maintenance and check or change them regularly. With the precision and small tolerance of the pawl/drivering any bearing slop will transfer largely into the pawls. Mine started making a strange noise so I immediately tore it all apart and found the brake side bearing had some wear. New bearings and good to go again. Love the sound too.
That's the problem with obsessing on engagement points - you're relying on ONE pawl's engagement to carry the torque loads. Since it's not distributed through three or four pawls, it tends to want to move off-center. Any bearing slop only exacerbates the problem.
I really don't get the obsession. I want good engagement, but also stout engagement. Something like DT or King provide 18, 36, 54 or more points of simultaneous, radial engagement that distributes the load, thereby reducing the possibility of failure.
@@dudeonbike800 Exactly why I chose the DT HYBRID hub for my eMTB
@@dudeonbike800 exactly this. Load needs to be spread radially. Where you're 'designing flex to help you' you're just lunching your bearings and fighting against them. Starting is terrible on these i9's too and I could never recommend for UK use.
Built a custom set of wheels last winter with Christmas gifted I9 hydra hubs, couldn't be happier this season as it's my first local race series and the hubs have proved to help with the uphill. The noise coming down helps people know I'm behind them. I'm pretty sure helps keep wildlife away too. Thanks Doddy for the in depth look into I9 hubs.
I run DT Swiss wheels with the ratchet drive system it reminds me of the difference of using a high-quality ratchet that has less degrees between engagement in tight places it can be the difference between not being able tighten or loosen a bolt.
Those I 9’s are awesome. Been riding Chris Kings for several years they have served me well.
How's the maintenance like on those? They're probably my favorite sounding high engagement hub for sure
seriously? whoever does this, smeared it with grease to show how quietly the hub works, but in the end they turned on the music. I wanted to hear silence or at least something but not music.
Pretty much ruined the whole point for sure
They've done it to get comments I reckon... and here we are!
Agree, please stop the music, it adds nothing and just distracting
Haha agreed. I was like... What the hell! Well let's hear it. Buzzkill.
So just watched, to me I think they just didn’t have the audio recorded of the hub in both ‘oiled’ and ‘greased’ versions. Hence why we heard the oiled version, but not the greased. Editor simply didn’t have the audio to add it so added music to fill the void.
I recently switched from a conventional hub to the i9. If the original hub hadn’t failed, I would not have given it a thought, but I LOVE the difference it’s made. No delay between pedaling and the wheel turning means better control up techy climbs, slightly faster acceleration out of corners, and (I think) better shifting. Lots of freehub oil keeps the sound to “fun” level, not overwhelming at all.
I have a regular Shimano hub on my 2022 (budget) hardtail, indeed it hampers every now and then when I put power through the cranks. At first I didn't know what it was but now I know it's the pick up from the hub, so thanks for the info!
In the Philippines, we have this term called "Tunog Mayaman" or "Sounding Rich" when the hubs sound extra loud and crisp.
Interesting.
Here in Canada we say "Wealth whispers". Rich people typically aren't loud and obnoxious.
High points of engagement was never that appealing to me since I'm not a climber. Pedal kickback is more of a nuisance than engagement. The only tech I really want in hubs is silent ones. I was so bummed when Shimano axed their development of lower tier silent hubs. The current options on a market cost as much as a decent used mtb.
It might have to do with your bikes suspension curve, but I totally get your point 👍
@@toneloke7489 You are absolutely right, frame design contributes a lot. Still I feel like there's no drawback to a hub with sub 60 engagement points for downhill. I see people running complicated devices like the Ochain active spider to solve a problem that would rarely occur if they just ran a cheaper hub. For racers I get it, a lower number of engagement points is not a guarantee that you won't get pedal kickback 100 out of 100 times. But for the rest of us without sponsors I feel like it's a good compromise.
Yeah, that's the upside of lesser engagement hubs, less pedal kickback. I also find them smoother. I have 120T and 36T hubs. The times when your ride mates have to pedal while you're still freewheeling is such a treat. Lol
There's another factor though, it depends how draggy your hubs are.
re going to be required to tune quite often, on these you gonna remove the tubeless tyres tapes volves to tune the rim
I thought the impact of a freehub on pedal kickback is eliminated once you reach a certain speed (that is pretty slow, like 15km/h)? Assuming a reasonably tall gear as well. O-Chain is to deal with pedal kickback introduced by frame kinematics more than the drivetrain, at least from what I understand.
Great vid! In 2020 I purchased a Evil The Following. In 2021 I saved up for a set of Industry Nine 315 carbon wheels with Hydra Hubs that completely transformed the bike. If you’re just hammering down mountains these hubs aren’t needed, but on technical rolling, rocky, rooty, trails like I ride HYDRAS ROCK!
Doddy great video! As always your information is spot on. If I could add something about the cheaper hubs. You touched on technical up hill climbs and sometimes hearing the cracking sound from the hubs. What happened with mine was after experiencing that the hub can actually jam. It can also take small chips out of the teeth of the pawls. My suggestion to anyone that has just bought a bike and spent a couple thousand dollars is to be aware of the limitations of the cheaper hubs and adjust your riding accordingly. It is also difficult to get parts for cheap hubs. In my case the bike manufacturer didn’t even know what hub was on my bike because they source hubs from several different suppliers and the all have the same part number but can be slightly different. I’m now rolling on I9 enduro S wheels with hydra hubs and they are amazing. I found that the almost instant engagement is only noticeable in situations where you want to put the power down quickly there’s just no lag. Also when you have to ratchet your pedals that .52 degrees is a game changer. I don’t notice any pedal kick back when descending rough sections of trail on my bike.
I love how doddy appreciates the design and quality of products.
Ace video - well explained. The idea of noisy hubs is worrying. Noise is lost energy. And metal on metal = wear. It really doesn't matter if its soft steel or HS steel if both pawl and ring are the same - as hard steel will cut hard steel as soft steel will cut soft steel. Nice hubs, but the metallurgy will dictate they will wear faster. Its just science if the springs are too heavy. How come no one uses drawn clutch roller (Sprag) bearings specifically for one way drive? Lighter, cheaper and instant - and zero noise!
If I’m not mistaken the Onyx Vesper hubs have a sprag clutch system and are almost if not completely silent.Haven’t ran them but I’m looking at a new wheel set and I’m considering a set of the onyx hubs
@@kendorcruz9075 mind out with onyx though, the engagement system they use has a fair bit of flex. I.e if you pull the rear brake so the will doesn't spin, the cassette and cranks still spin a fair amount even if the rear wheel is stationary
Because they're poor at peak load handling, relatively speaking
@@kendorcruz9075 Yep, they are totally silent 😶
Between a pawl system and a ratchet system, I'll chose the ratchet one. Easier to service and I dont have to worry about losing engagement because it does not have pawl springs.
I'd love to see a comparison between a (3/6/...)pawl-system and a ratchet system, ideally also compared with an Onyx-hub (silent hub with infinite engagement). from a technical/practical point of view with advantages/disadvantages on the different systems.
I have onyx hubs which I admittedly haven’t ridden that much due to an injury. But for however much I have ridden them I couldn’t be happier. I just love the pure sound of rubber hitting the trail without the annoying buzzing. The sprag clutch works flawlessly and gives you pretty much as instant engagement as possible. Hubs are a bit heavier due to the sprag clutch system tho. However, since that weight is at the center of the wheel, you don’t really feel the difference, at least I couldn’t. If you like quiet trails and have money to spare I highly recommend.
I really enjoyed Doddy's explanation of the hubs. I particularly enjoyed the talk about the flexing of the hubs. I had a set of Stan's wheels that always ate bearings, I guess that could be why.
Went from some Hope Pro 4's (which are bombproof amazing hubs) to some I9 Hydra's. I'm in love. Crazy how good they feel. Basically instant engagement. Sound amazing. And they look even better!
Yeah I9 Refused to warranty their hub with any E-bike. I was disapointed
I'm in Utah on a Trance 29, so only 115mm of rear travel. I find the high engagement I get from the Hydra pretty critical for the techy/rocky climbs we get out here. I also take the bike to Moab quite a lot and use up all of that suspension. Chain growth is pretty minimal on this bike, so I don't feel any kick back. I kind of tune out the sound, but it's there, for sure. I also use grease to quite it down. I have used the older Torch model and I found the drive side bearings wore out really quickly. The Hydra design seems to have solved that issue.
Quality spokes don't have cut threads, they have rolled threads, where no material is removed. A double-butted spoke is also thinner in the middle than it is where the threads are.
Spoke threads are rolled, not cut so there is no material removed, there is still a stress riser though.
The grease made it produce music.... Cool.
I use moly grease to quiet them down,it's pretty thin and coats the parts well,really stays on the surfaces.
i want to learn more about sealed bearing, some have 4 bearings some have more but 4 sound strange, to me the more the better. I want to see what's inside and how 4 bearing work inside
Can it carry more momentum if it’s lighter? momentum = mass x velocity.
Hub is at the centre it's mass has a small effect on how quick or how much momentum your bike carries, these will only offer as you've stated quick engagement (assuming all hubs having similar lateral stiffness)
For bike acceleration and deceleration having light rims etc.. matter as there is less force needed to input by the rider, but that does not equate to bike momentum as heavier rims once up to speed help produce your momentum it's just trying to slow them down 😄
I think you may need to look at the physics behind rotating mass and don't try to convince yourself otherwise. All race vehicles go for the lightest wheels they can along with the lowest un-sprung mass as even though it represents the lowest proportional actual weight of the total vehicle, it has the greatest effect on its performance.
@@zenscapeUKmedia that wasn't the question. Work in = work out in any energy system. I'm just equating heavier wheels to a flywheel. And anyway it has no real world cause and effect on our mtbing world worth considering. What you any many others describe is acceleration and deceleration not the actual momentum or stored energy within the system.
@@stevenconnor4221 Again look at the physics. In a perfect system you theoretically have 100%, so work in =work out as you say. But you rarely get anywhere near 100% as there are so many factors taking their slice of the force. To change speed, first you have to overcome the mass of the object (bike) you're trying to move. Newton's 2nd law (F=MA) describes force required (from the rider) versus Mass (the weight of the wheel) and acceleration (rate of change). Any MTB session is not about straight, constant speed lines. Its all about acceleration (to counter a hill or obstacle), wind, braking and then restoring speed. About 25 years ago, I had my first pair of hand-built wheels made. It wasn't a great bike, but boy those wheels transformed it into something special. Doddy is 100% right about great, lighter wheels. Best investment you can ever make to any bike. But hey, stick with your heavy flywheels if you're happy riding at a constant speed over flat terrain. Each to his own.
@@zenscapeUKmedia I don't disagree with you. I was just jumping in on something Dody said about them giving you momentum. Tbh I can't even remember.
@@zenscapeUKmedia f=ma (or p=mv or E=0.5*m*v^2) prove his point that heaver wheels carry more momentum (more m, more f, p or E). true, it is harder to accelerate them (which he states) and won't help your suspension as you say. But the statement of the video, that lighter wheels carry more momentum is false. also light wheels can be unstable, why supposedly some downhill racers even add weight to their front wheel.
Glad they are constantly improving the technology...
I have a high engagement hub and haven't noticed any significant pedal kickback, but definitely helped on the technical climbs!🤘👍
it depends on your frame and suspension layout but it's not a big a deal as many people claim
Im sure mine too because I use Nukeproof Scout the hardtailll
I'm running Chris King wheels on my steed. I love the almost instant engagement.
A freehub using a pawl system being described as a "super" hub... ha! I thought you'd at least look at something actually innovative like Onyx and their use of a sprag clutch for truly instant engagement through a mechanism that is literally friction-free and long proven for industrial durability. People only like pawls because they are loud, sort of like those annoying/arrogant folks that put loud exhaust systems on their cars
straight pipe go brap
This is “best on UA-cam” level video. Andrew, you’re on point.
Love my i9 wheels!
As a bigger dude the enduro 305 wheels have been bullet proof. I have had other wheels hold up to my abuse but they always show their weakness eventually.
Ahkshully...if you can accelerate and decelerate quicker, your bike carries less momentum. Unless you meant that compared to the wheel weight (angular momentum) the bike itself has an increase of linear momentum, but still the overall momentum is smaller
I’ve wanted I9 wheels for a few years now, those damn thing look and sound boss.
I've got a Stumpjumper Evo HT 29er 2012 model, life hadn't gone well since buying it, it's never had the opportunity to visit any proper trails, just been used on road and sometimes local woods (unfortunately though weather + horse riders tend to destroy the paths I'd like to tear through on the bike), but in hopes to soon start getting to some real MTB environments I've just revived it a bit, with a new uprated BB, Hope narrow wide chain ring, XT cassette, Hope jockey wheels, and new chain, but now all the vibration from the worn out drive train is dealt with I can feel how weak the rear hub seems, my local specialized concept store cleaned it out nd regreased it, but it's got a noticeable grumble when pedaling now.
So looks like I want my first new wheel set in the near future, but I don't know enough to know what to buy, to be getting an upgrade without spending more than necessary.
Get a wheelbuilder to build you a set, it can be cheaper than you think. Especially with alloy rims (go DT Swiss)
If you're in the UK you can't beat a Hope rim for price and durability
I'd like to know the torque capacity and longevity of the system before I care about the sound.
It would be great to compare I9 to Chris King to Shamanos newer silent hubs.
How about a video on internals of an onyx hub? It’s a different mechanism and it rolls silent. They are on me MUL-MUL-MULLET machine-they roll fast.
Yeah, how come onyx doesn't get any limelight? When I got my Vesper's it was the biggest performance upgrade I ever did. Saved me from countless near-falls on technical terrain, and definitely less pumping required, super smooth rolling
Oh, not forgetting the fact that it's totally silent. It is such a joy to hear the sounds of nature in the forest
These are absolutely beautiful.
I just had to compare these spokes to Berd spokes. Here it is if anyone is interested. I9 4-5g per spoke at about $1.10 usd. Berd. .4g Per spoke at $8 usd.
Love my I9 Hydra hubs!
Neat! I have a Mavic rear hub with that config on my old GT ZR3.0 road bike.
Great vid, cheers, just reminded me why i use the 36t DT Swiss hub.
Only thing I don’t like about dt is having to remove the drive ring to get to the inner hub shell bearing.
I'm running a 350 with the stock 18t and it's somehow in a world better than the 18t "bear pawls" hub it replaced. I'm not sure how that's happening, but I'm happy with it.
Finally i get to know the different. Thank awesome video!
Not a fan of the spoke construction. It puts the delicate little thread onto the most expensive part whereas in a normal constrution both sides are on cheap replacable parts.
My i9 hydras were nice for engagement, except for the pawls skipping, the pawls wearing out the metal they are recessed into, and the rear axle snapping in half. Otherwise, they are great.
The only problem i have with the Hydras is that I can't make up my mind if I want em loud or silent. I just recently greased em with the hub grease because I THOUGHT I wanted them to be more silent. And now I miss the loudness 😭
Am I the only one who prefers a quiet freehub?
You are not alone. Onyx +1
No but then you don't need a bell😁
@@nomad-pq4yw8iy7v i don't need a bell. I just enjoy sneaking on unaware pedestrians 😆
@@nomad-pq4yw8iy7v there's always a need for a bell!
I can't even hear whatever's in my 10-year old XC bike, and I love that about it.
Hail Hydra!
Wish you’d guys cover the actual other system like DT Swiss. Not just variations on the same kind. Having said that, I’ve crushed one of the pawls on the regular 3-pawl system on my old bike. I now have a DTSwiss 370 with a 60 tooth ratchet which gives a full 60 points of contact at the time. Not 12. 🤷🏻♂️
Why screws in the hub flanges? 20 years ago, Pulstar was already producing straight pull hubs 🙄 never had a broken spoke, even with much higher spoke tension.
Great video but have you had the chance to have a look at the Onyx Vester ?
I know this is going to be contentious, but god I hate the way those I9 hubs sound. Can you make a video on trying to add grease so they're quiet, or at least quieter?
Also, a major benefit to running stuff like DT Swiss is not only are parts easier to find, but something like the freehub is not absurd. The freehub of a Hydra is $230. The DT Swiss freehub is like $60-75, depending on if you have a pawl or ratchet version.
In fact, I could literally buy an entire replacement DT Swiss for less than the price of the freehub of the Hydra, and DT Swiss is no slouch when it comes to quality parts
No mention of the Ringdrive system which is also relevant if you want to discuss hubs.
Standard steel spoke threads aren't cut, they're rolled. Material is not removed.
Soooo, to make my brand new DT240 DEG hub louder, change to freehub oil instead of grease?
My mechanic and I removed the excess grease but left a fair layer still on and it's still almost completely quiet while riding below like 20+mph unless i also backpedal quickly. Lol.
Kinda nice, but also kinda want more nouse than THAT tho. Maybe just wait for a few hundred miles to break in first, THEN go to freehub oil?
2:04 how are lighter wheels carrying momentum better than heavier wheels?
Same here, technical climbing is the biggest advantage I notice.
If I ride a bike without instant engagement, it's really noticeable now, like my mountain bike with curly bars.
So what happens to the spoke threads in those nice hubs when a stick gets in your wheel?
You buy a new wheel 😉
@@countspokeula539 i guessed that 😆
Depends on the stick. My rear wheel has eaten so many sticks it must think they're tasty at this point. Doesn't even go out of true. I have DT wheels though, not these i9 things.
Really gonna miss Doddy!
Dumb question, but when climbing technical sections, and there is rear wheel hesitation, how to you know if it's the cheap hub points of engagement, or just a momentary loss of tire traction in back? You can have all the points you want in the hub but if the tire cannot get enough traction for the lower gear ratio you are in, the tire's going to slip and the bike (and pedals) will hesitate. Therefore, tire selection for climbing would not be a tad more important...?
Is flex also used as an advantage in Bitex BX103R touring hubs with six pawls and six bearings?
I have the Hydra Trail 270... My trail bike is now lighter, faster and it sounds so cool... Even when I'm just walking it... Those tics I hear makes me frown on the outside like I'm tough, meanwhile I'm really smiling inside because I'm happy 😣😁
great explanation
Amazing tech, definitely buying a set when I win the lotto haha!
I have a set of Bontrager hubs on my Trek. They don't make noise at all and never have. Yet they never fail to engage. I've always wondered why they are silent. Too much grease inside the freehub?
Why couldn't you replace the drive ring and pawls and convert a Torch to a Hydra?
Momentum= mass x velocity.
So, if you change to a lighter alternative, you will have LESS momentum.
(About 2:00, where you claim lighter = "carry more momentum")
Random question, but what's the fork, on the left, on the wall in the background? Looks like a RS motion Control red logo, Lyriks?
Is there a QR version of this one ? The casette that came with my Marin Bobcat Trail5 as too much wobble and too much lag
I have onyx hubs but my rear rotor is jingling or rattling on bumps or is pretty strange. Maybe it always did but I could not hear it before. I think it is new though.
Higher engagement does mean more pedal kickback though
Doddy did mention that, however it's not as simple as that. It's a matter of probability. At the exact moment you compress the rear suspension super fast, the pawl can be anywhere on the drive ring with any hub. So if you have a super sloppy 15 degree engagement hub the pawl could still be right next to a tooth and engage instantly. It's just more likely with a faster engagement hub. But if you do the calculations for pedal kick back based on speed, you have to be going relatively slowly and compress the suspension super hard for the hub engagement to be a factor. The hub has to be spinning slower than the chain growth is happening and that's actually very rare.
OK, so let's just massively ignore the fact that i9 spokes are aluminum and as such 100% guaranteed to fail no matter how low the load you put on them is as long as you reach enough cycles. The grade they've chosen does has great tensile strength though, but only half the sheer strength of stainless.
in theory. but google smith diagram for 7075. depending on the load, the number of cycles can be interpreted as ininite (for a human life)
Been happy with my bww pure xcr hubs
Great, now I have to go pull my hub apart to see what it looks like...
May i ask what is best recommended free hub body? I've experience on gouging on my Hyperglide freehub
Good video!!, i love the sound of those hubs!! and of course the performance. im from venezuela, but i live in peru now, how can i buy those hubs? at least the rear one, here in Peru there is no cycling store selling that brand. is there a website available to buy it? thanks in advance.
When I was a kid in the 60's we used to grab my dads empty gigarette packs and mount them on the seat stay with a clothes pin so the pack went into the spokes now that my friends was a high engagement noise lmao
Nah, only 36 point. 😀
those spokes can twist on high tension, because of drag on the threads and the distance between the threads and the niples its gonna be a tiny twist and this is not ideal for a precise fine tuning
I'm still using 20yo LX, and prefer quiet freehubs.
The I9 wheelsets puts a lot of questionmarks over my head:
-afaik aluminum has no „infinite fatique“ properties, despite steel, carbon or titanium. The spokes are destined to break even in theory.
- High engagement has little benefits in mtb despite road or trials. On full sus it has even theoretical drawbacks (pedal kickback)
- the rotating mass almost solely matters on the outside of the diameter. Physically the heavier the center (hub/cassette/disc) of the wheel is compared to the outside (rim/tire) the faster it will accelerate.
- good bearings are nice, still all the drag comes from the seals…
It’s a lot of money for a peace of mind with no actual benefits 🫤
Hope Pro4 ftw. Even a loon like me can service them.
good points, but i doubt that a 200g rim with a 300g hub will accelerate slower than the same rim with a 10kg hub.
Hope option is the only one fore me 😉
I got a high engagement hub with +100 points on my dh and my enduro and I've never felt pedal kickback inconvenience me in any way
Could you check for microspline without taking the wheel apart cheers
You forgot to mention that the spoke don’t touch each other. Very unique
Why the industry nine over the Onyx ? Just personal preference ?
Bigger wheel bearings
@@janeblogs324 Can you elaborate on that please ?
Paid promotion
I have Hydra hubs on my hardtail and Onyx on my full suspension bike, and I really can't tell a material difference in the engagement while riding. But the absolute silence of the Onyx hub is fantastic. All you hear is the noise of your tires on the trail. Well, maybe a tiny bit drive train noise, too.
@@kenannable4747 I used to run ONYX hubs on my race BMX, I'm having wheels made for my Mondraker Foxy XR as we speak, Onyx hubs and Halo Gravitas rims.
Would a light grease like SRAM butter damage the freehub or would it be fine?
On The Other Hand...
the placement of the ratchets on the inside of the hub shell, means the load bearings of the 'super hub' are Farther from the dropouts; in comparison to a basic shimano hub where the rachets are in the freehub body.
that longer distance puts more bending stress on the axle.
-they make up for it by going with a 12mm axle vs the 10mm of the basic shimano
Still, this strikes me as a 'brute force' kind of solution vs cleverly spacing those bearings farther apart.
How do lighter wheels carry more momentum? Momentum is mass * velocity, ergo less mass less momentum!
are there cheaper no noise at all, i know the onyx vesper don;t make sound at all, but they are too expensive for me
GMBN, where the lowest spec wheel they have come with a DT Swiss 370. Which use pop off end caps(no cup and cone). Good acting Doddy!
Hi, a noobie question so are this hub suitable for foldable bicycle or just for mtb or road bike? Sorry I got absolutely got no knowledge about bicycle 😅
Vespar for me only because of sound or lack of,,,, but i love this spoke system from i9
Which is faster, the closed axle 6200 or the normal axle
4:28 So when engaged it is effectively 12 ACTIVE POE and 690 possible POE. This is really industry BS. DT Ratchet has, for example, 54 POE in engaged state and the contacting area is 100% (so it is in effect much secure connection). 12 active POE with contacting area of less than 10% is something else. It is like when you are talking often about contact area of the tire with the ground and not about number of knobs on that area but when it comes to hub engagement mechanism you are willingly and gladly effectively comparing apples to oranges.
You’re not really understanding what’s going on are you?!
@@deterrentdubz9116 Doddy is making commercial. Have nothing against it. I am just saying that so called "points of engagement" is really a misleading term.
I like my Onyx Vespyr better. But you are right, there are only 12 POE at any given moment. Also reliability of the pawls and smaller teeth surface under high torque is an issue; DT 54T ratchet suffers the same issue.
We need to consider the total contact surface area for all engaged pawls and the angle between pivot and face. Two teeth per pawl gives no more surface area than one deeper pawl.
OK I fully understand - new advanced technology is cool and we need progress to have better bikes. BUT do we really need thousands engage points in hubs?
maybe for racers only
The question is at what point does it not make a difference?
No. I agree with your sentiment.
@gmbntech #askgmbntech
Hi Doddy! Since we're talking about hubs already. Would be nice if you make a video on premium hubs vs cheap online hubs (Arc, Koozer, etc.). Somehow these cheap hubs perform equally just as good. Tho, your point of views would be valuable.
How much reliable can conversion end cabs quickrelease system can handle in extreme trails
They're as reliable as having a quick release. The end caps aren't the weak part: having dropouts and a skewer are.