J-BEND vs STRAIGHT-PULL spokes
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- Опубліковано 2 лип 2024
- Which spoke is stiffer, more durable and lighter? Which builds better wheels? Well…it depends….
Tristan answers the most common questions about the different types of spokes:
-Which is stronger?
-Which is stiffer?
-Which is more durable?
-Which is lighter
-Which is easier to replace
-Why are ‘factory’ wheels often straight pull?
-Why use one over the other?
Here at Wheelworks we build with both J-bend and straight-pull. Hit the link below to view our website.
→ www.wheelworks.co.nz/
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Simple, objective, informative: thanks for making a quality video on the subject!
Glad it was helpful! -Tristan
Thank you (only) 6minutes and very clear and to the point as good as it gets
As a wheelbuilder of 40years experience, including professional team mechanics, this is exactly my opinion also.
ProBikeMechanic UK
I have an interesting discovery to add to the straight pull vs j bend comparison. I had a very high end mountain bike with carbon Reynolds rims laced to DT 240S hubs, which are straight pull. I had an issue that I took ages to solve, and it was this: in the 3 highest gears, as I would pedal, my rotor would rub every revolution on the brake pads. This did not happen in any of the other 8 gears. When the bike was in the stand, and I spun the wheel in any gear, the rotor was dead straight. So, there was something happening in the high gears that was causing the rotor to rub. I checked the frame, the pivot points, everything, but to no avail. I eventually determined that it must be hub flex, and so I was going to be upgrading my drivetrain, and I wanted the new 12 speed Microspline, so I built up a when with a j bend XTR hub. Lo and behold, the rubbing issue disappeared.
It is my belief that a straight pull hub is going to flex and twist more than a j bend hub. It is the spokes bracing the hub flange of a j bend that resists the flex and twisting that the straight pull flange cannot resist. I'm curious to see if anyone else has encountered this issue, and if they agree with my assessment.
I think I'm having the same problem. Again, on a straight pull dt240exp hub.
have same problem in my fulcrum 27.5 mtb wheelset, worse because i can also feel the front end flexing rubbing the rotors in w/c it is not being solve/no solution at all.
I looked at the timing of video...6 minutes and thought no way that he can pull it off in that time frame! But you did, awesome video, very informative and some of the best 6 minutes I ever spent watching content on YT! Subscribed and will recommend to friends and looking forward to more clips.
Wow - thanks Marcel! I find it difficult to compress a subject down to only 6 minutes and inevitably I can't cover edge cases and I'll miss things so I'm glad you enjoyed it. -Tristan
Thanks for a no bullshit video on this subject that gets right to the point.
Thanks Ryan. We love what you're doing with your channel too - stay in touch if we can help. -Tristan
Very well done. Defiitely a step above 99% of all other UA-cam videos.
Love the rapid fire format. Excellent production!
Regarding weight, I found that straightpull isn't necessarily lighter in total. Yes the hubs are lighter, but the spokes tend to be at least 10mm longer. Multiplied by 28 or 32, and its a significant amount of weight that typically negates anything saved from the lighter hubs. In the case of DT 240 it actually came out lighter to build with j-bend.
Thank you. Straight to the point and quick video.
Thanks for the video guys!
Our pleasure! Thanks for the comment and feedback -Tristan
This information is absolutely amazing for novice builder like myself. I would be interested in your guys take on interlacing or non-interlacing spokes. Thank you so much for amazing videos.
Great question....I'v actually been wondering this myself recently. Why do we interlace spokes? Because it's always been done that way? Are there any advantages or disadvantages with modern components? I'd love to do a bit of testing on this so stay tuned ~Tristan
Great video! Super clear and I’ve been wondering this for a while
Glad to hear it! We're going to be answering more of these common wheelbuilding questions and dispelling some myths so get subscribed -Tristan
Great video. Learn a lot. I've been very happy with all nine of my Wheelworks wheels. Four of them are road wheels with straight pull and Wheelworks have done a stellar job with making them perfectly.
Thanks David - I'm stoked that you're enjoying the fleet! -Tristan
amazing material!! thnks U Weelworks
Our pleasure!
A very well done video explaining the two spoke types.
I am looking to start building wheels.
I am now subscribed to your channel.
Thank you!
Your videos are superb!!!. Great information that is really useful and easy to follow. You also speak really clearly. Your passion for what you do comes through. You make me want to move to NZ so that I can get my wheels from you. As much as I love my bikes and the research that goes with them, it would be good to be closer to knowledge heads like you guys so I could get to the truth faster. Cheers from Aus.
Thanks Phillip! We have free shipping to Australia and ship a couple of wheelsets a week over the ditch so reach out on sales@wheelworks.co.nz if we can help. Thanks for the kind words -Tristan
Just discovered this page. Excellent videos
Well this video made up my mind, thanks for that!!! I'll build my first wheel set with J-Bend spokes...
I have some old mavic wheels, 24 spokes, they are soft and mushy as hell. Ideal for city with 32mm tires :))
Uhhh, I asked for this in one of your last videos, thank you so much for the answer! ✌🏽
You should have asked for a free set of wheels or the lotto numbers! -Tristan
Great Video thanks👍
Glad you enjoyed it
It's a 6+ minutes full of informations. Great video.
Glad it was helpful!
the video did it s exact purpose very well. well made video and thx. the reason they make them so much now is for profitability not bcs that they are better.
very informative, tnxu sir...
Great video - thank you! Would love to see you do a similar comparison on nipple types/materials.
Great idea!
Very interesting comparison!
What would be really useful is a hands-on video about calculation of straight-pull length.
I find trying to find a virtual point in space for calcs very confusing and nowhere as straightforwards as ‘J bend”.
Thanks.
Not totally relevant to this video, but for future: bladed vs round spokes and thoughts on lubing spokes when building!
Great ideas thanks Luke!
HI
thanks for this movie
simple and with god examples you have explain this topic
thank you for that
best regards
Glad it was helpful!
Thanks for posting this video, I recently bought a set of Enve wheels and was wondering if I was giving anything up with the J-bend spokes they use - nice to know I'm not . I actually had a spoke snap on me when I hit a crater and it was on an entry level set of rim brake wheels (Campagnolo Scirocco), not a great feeling when your doing 25mph on a busy road. The 16 spokes on the front wheel definitely factored in as did my 220lb weight, now I'll only use a minimum of 20 spokes (24 is preferred) and of course a much better wheelset.
We're here when you're ready for a better quality wheelset which won't break spokes ;-) -Tristan
@@WheelworksHandcraftedWheels can you please get me a strong 26"¹ rear disc wheel recommendation.Happy with a good condition second
Many thanx
@@josephfuller496 no problem! You can take a look at the options here (www.wheelworks.co.nz/dt-swiss-alloy/) then drop us a note through the website with questions -Tristan
If I need wheels professional done, I am great as I lace the wheel so they tighten same amount of turns when hand then to the pros to finish, I can get 0.2mm myself but sometimes I want more better
Thanks for that very useful video. When I got this right, j-bend should also work better with asym rims?
Asymmetrical rims are more about increasing the spoke tension on the low-tension side of the wheel - they have a very small effect on lateral stiffness. -Tristan
Nice informative video, thank you!
I just broke a SP spoke on my gravel 24 spoke Al asymmetrical wheel on the cassette side while pedaling hard out of a roundabout.
It broke at the hub end and I am worried other may follow since it a light wheel used a lot for routes where people ride even FS bikes.
Should I change all spokes on that side since I tend to ride in remote areas as well?
If a straight-pull spoke broke at the head then I'm very confident that all of the others will eventually break. I'd suggest getting the wheel rebuilt with a good quality spoke by someone who is experienced. -Tristan
Thanks Tristan! I've been inspired by you and Gav to try and build a budget bling set (hopefully a wheelworks set next). Do you think the spoke length (shorter for j-bend) wound compensate for the ~15g difference in hub weight? If I'm looking at trying to build the lightest set possible with the idea of reusing the hubs on a proper build in a year or two, is something like a 240 straight pull the path?
Thanks,
Liam - (XC wheel interest)
Hey Liam! An Aerolite spoke is about 0.016 g/mm so if the flanges were 15mm bigger on both sides then you'd save around 7.8 grams in spoke length, so it does start to claw back the weight! Obviously a thicker / heavier spoke would have even more weight.
The main concern with re-lacing hubs is to re-use the same lacing pattern. With a straight-pull hub this isn't a factor as you don't get any options, whereas with a J-bend hub you've got 4 possible lacing options, plus different spoke crossing options. I'm not sure there is a 'right' answer here so I'd be more tempted to chose a good quality hub. -Tristan
@@WheelworksHandcraftedWheels thanks so much Tristan!
Snapped a few spokes out of the blue on my i9 wheelset, how would I go about fixing that? Rebuild whole wheel or ?
Well....best thing you can do is get subscribed to our channel for our upcoming "why do spokes break" video :-D Everything we talk about is with steel spokes, if you have the aluminum I9 spokes then you're best working with whomever built the wheels for you as some will apply but some wont. -Tristan
Very informative. There's a brand out there that says it uses straight pull spokes on some of its wheel types because of "excellent torsional strength." First, is "torsional strength" a twisting of the wheel or twisting of the spoke or something else? Second, is that a legit concern? Third, if so, is the torsional strength of straight pull spokes better than J-bend?
Sounds like they found a fancy-sounding word! This doesn't make any sense to me - I read it as the spoke twisting but you care more about *stiffness* there not *strength* and it's not something that happens to a spoke after being built anyway. So without knowing more, I'm calling bullshit -Tristan
Great video! In relation to lateral stiffness- would you say that j bend for example work better with an alloy rim and a straight pull would work better with carbon? to compensate or mitigate the stiffness of the rim material
Great question. Lateral stiffness is certainly less important with a (good) carbon rim as they are stiffer than aluminium. We took advantage of this on our TrailLite and EnduroLite front wheels by lowering the spoke count from 32 to 24 in addition to using a much lighter layup to save weight. The loss in lateral stiffness from a straight-pull hub would certainly be felt less (or not at all) on a carbon rim. It's been a few years since I've really delved into lateral stiffness and it's something that I want to do a lot more research on this year as it's a really interesting subject. Thanks for the feedback and questions - keep them coming. -Tristan
@@WheelworksHandcraftedWheels cheers 👍
I’d say if you ride tubeless with Cushcore, it’s gonna be a win for J bend on “ease of replacement.”
I’d take off 3 brakes and cassettes before I wanna mess with pulling MTB tires off and patching the tubeless tape, etc.
I really like your video's! Very good advice! 😁I have a question. I want to build my own wheels for my roadbike and I'm doing a lot of research for it. I picked DT Swiss 350 non-disc hubs (J-bend) and DT Swiss RR 411 28'' Rim front 28H and the asymmetric 411 rear 28H. I want a 1 over 3 spokespattern in the rear and a 1 over 2 or 1 over 1 spokespattern in the front. But I'm not sure what brand I need to choose for the spokes, so I was wondering what the difference is between Sapim Laser and DT Swiss Revolution. They are both double butted, 1.5mm in the middel and very light. What would you recommend and will this be a good wheelbuild that I have in mind?
If this is your first wheelbuild then a heavier spoke will be much easier to build with. Revolutions and Lasers 'wind up' a lot as you're building and can be really tricky. A spoke like the DT Swiss Competition will weigh a little more but will make your wheelbuilding experience significantly more enjoyable :-) -Tristan
I had built up the RR411 asym rim and didn't like it at all. It's a super flexy rim that does not benefit from more even spoke length and tension. R460 or R470 (disc) built up so much stiffer of a wheel.
I've build my wheels with this asymetric rim and have no issues with it. I've laced them 1 over 2 in de back and radial in the front and they just ride lovely! I go a lot faster with them then with my previous wheels. But I also don't know how the normal rim rides, so I can't compare it
@@LizanneSilvertant Having built up plenty of wheels myself, the standard non-asym DTSwiss road rims are actually stiffer. Just giving you my experience for future reference.
Sounded pretty bias towards the jbend that would come on a huffy . Which I've never seen straight pull on a huffy. I've bent more jbend rims than I have straight pull .
You're correct but there is a bell curve of price. It's hard to comprehend but the wheels that come on a Huffy cost around $1 each (!!) and I honestly don't know much about the fabrication of these other than they rely on cheap labour and massive volume. Once you get into our market / price range of wheels the extra CNC machining time (extra cost) to make straight-pull hubs will be offset by the reduced labour of lacing if you're doing enough of them on a production line. 6-bolt vs center lock rotors is another tradeoff - the 6-bolt hubs cost more because they take longer on the CNC machine, and installing and tightening 6 bolts takes longer, but stamped steel 6-bolt rotors are so much cheaper so the total hub + rotor price is lower. This is why you see 6-bolt rotors on most entry-level and mid-level mountain bikes. -Tristan
Excellent content, thank you!
I would suggest not recording in a big room since it gives a big echo of the sound.
Thanks for the tip!
You left out: Double Butted Spokes..? which helps prevent impact on the Rim that causes the rim to crack near the spoke...? And what are the advantages of adding a washer under the nipple to disperse the stress over a wider space in the rim..? From what i understand, Straight-Pull are very stiff and do not allow flex so the entire impact of bumps is put on the rim which causes cracks.
This video could have gone more in depth. And explained all the pros and cons of J-Bend vs Straigh-Pull vs Butted spokes.. You didn't give us a complete picture.. Please elaborate on ALL options and their unique advantages.
Hi Rob. This video covered the differences between J-Bend and straight-pull spokes and didn't go into the differences in spoke type or whether spoke washers are needed. Those are great topics and ones we'll look at for future videos. -Tristan
Question about spoke count:
I'm diving into wheel options for my Turbo Levo, specifically looking at DT Swiss HX 1700. I noticed the factory option comes with 28 straight-pull spokes, but there's an alternative to build the same wheels with 32 J-bend spokes on 350 hybrid classic hubs and XH 531/581 rims.
How crucial is the spoke count in (e)MTB wheels, and would the shift to 32 spokes provide noticeable advantages in durability or performance? Keen to hear your experiences and insights.
Spoke count has more to do with lateral stiffness and ability to stay true should a spoke or two break. Stiffer carbon rims can use fewer (and lighter) spokes without a noticeable drop in lateral stiffness. An ebike generally wants as much lateral stiffness as possible as the extra weight of the bike. ~Tristan
Love to hear you go over the best HUB for working with an E-bike. Is the industry nine Hydra King? or are there competitors like DTSWISS 54T Ratchet? I'm not rich. But I want bulletproof wheel build. So I want to integrate Cushcore and use quality spokes. I don't have a huge Budget. Was considering Hope Pro4 Hubs( cheaper then most), with Dtswiss XM Rims., curious what you think.
The Industry 9 is probably the worst hub for an ebike on that list as the high engagement point design puts a lot of stress on axles and bearings and these wear out very quickly.
The DT Swiss classic (not the EXP) system works really well on ebikes, as do the Pro4 and our Dial hub.
Dial has faster pick (72 engagement points) and Hope has lotsa colours. You can't go wrong with either.
-Tristan
Great video, I would add as a pro shorter overall spoke length for J-bend increases lateral stiffness and stability.
There is also the physical contact at the cross off spokes with J-bend that increases stiffness and prevents spokes from turning under pressure.
The weight pro for straight pull...the minuscule weight gain for straight pull hubs is in the center of the wheel so the rotational mass gain is actually nonexistent...
I am all in for J-bend ✌
Does aluminium straight pull spokes require more tension than J bend spokes? Eg 305 wheels from Industry nine.
The material will change the amount of tension required but only slightly. Essentially (and this is a gross oversimplification) the spokes need to have enough tension that they're stretched enough that they won't go slack while the wheel is being (ab)used. -Tristan
I had a mavic wheelset with straight-pull spokes and got a stick caught in the wheel and it ripped the spoke through the flange of the hub making the wheel virtually useless.
Hey, I have a problem, that my wheelset from the brand XLR8 uses the straight pull spoke, and after riding it on bumpy tarmac for several kilometers, the spoke loosened and separated from the nipple. After fixing and truing it, the problem comes again and again. Is there any suggestions to solve this? Is it safe to over-tensioning the straight pull spoke while truing it?
Thanks
It sounds like a build-quality issue with the spoke tensions being too low. I would suggest you reach out to XLR88 and see if they can help you. -Tristan
@@WheelworksHandcraftedWheels Thanks for the answer, man!
Hi there, great video! What are your thoughts on proprietary spokes? Ie the I9 system and the larger diameter alloy spokes? Obviously harder to source a replacement spoke etc but are they stronger, stiffer? Thanks 🤙🏻
Overall we haven't had great luck with either the I9 spokes or similar Mavic aluminium spokes. Spokes generally function best under tension and aluminium isn't the best material for this use case. -Tristan
@Wheelworks Handcrafted Wheels
Thanks for the reply Tristan. Good to know 🤙🏻
Hmmm. I'm considering getting a DT Swiss 350 hub straight pull because the flange diameter on the drive side is larger, meaning the bracing angles between the two sides will be improved. The J-bend version of DT Swiss 350 have the two flange diameters exactly the same. This is the only reason I'm considering the straight pull, and my current Hope Hub is so blooming noisy.
The flange diameter is larger to compensate for the reduce center-to-flange because of the thicker straight pull flanges. The bracing angle at the rim will be *very* close between those two hubs. -Tristan
@@WheelworksHandcraftedWheels Thanks for the reply.
so that would mean you choose dt 240 over dt 180?
Personally I'm using our super-modular, J-bend, light weight, easy to maintain Dial hubs
www.wheelworks.co.nz/dial-portal/
-Tristan
Portuguese subtitles please 🙏
Apparently you've never actually had to change a broken spoke on a straight pull setup. The clusterfuck of spokes around the hub make it impossible to easily slide the old one out and the new one in
Hi thanks for the great video... Can I purchase DT swiss straight pull spokes from you for Shimano RS370 wheels for my road bike?
Give us a call on 04 387 3592 during business hours and we'll see if we can help -Tristan
@@WheelworksHandcraftedWheels thank you Tristan
Why are j-bend spokes used for high grade wheels?
J-Bend hubs are easier to measure the hub dimension for wheel building..
I can't believe I didn't talk about this but YES! Unless you are 100% certain of the dimensions it can be really tough. If we're building a unique hub using expensive spokes we'll often test-built with some cheap straight gauge spokes to test our spoke length calcs and quickly bring the wheel to enough tension and dish/true that we can evaluate whether our measurements and calcs were correct. Total PITA - thanks for mentioning this. -Tristan
@@WheelworksHandcraftedWheels to be fair, this is a bike-industry issue
to me as a mechanical engineer it's completely insane that there are no CAD models available for rims and hubs from the manufacturer(s)
determination of the perfect spoke length would literally be a 2 minute job
I broken spokes, I’m 260 pounds and pick bad lines. Not very often though, every few years
I'm in the process of learning the art of wheel building. I've successfully built two j bend wheels without many hiccups.
Then I tried to build a wheel with an existing straight pull hub I already had... what an absolute nightmare! Never again.
I find some parts of the wheelbuild easier, however the initial measuring and spoke calculation can often be a real nightmare! -Tristan
I'm wondering about 28 vs. 32 spokes...
That keeps me awake at night too -Tristan
straight pull is the same as t-head?
does a t-head work in a straigpull dt swiss 30 hub?
Straight pull and T-head are NOT the same thing. Another industry "standard" which makes things super confusing for users :-( Tristan
Straight pull hub is just a way to reduce cost for hub's manufacturer...
This seems to be their main reason, yep. -Tristan
All I got from the video is that type of spoke does not matter
Mega easy to lace a straight pull wheel and fairly straight forward to replace a spoke without removing the rotor and cassette. Apart from that they are just terrible.
I'm so regretful not to watched this video before, just bought the lightest hub i found and was straight pull, hard to find the spokes and also is very difficult to build, do not worth the effort
This is where our knowledge really comes into play - we love working through these types of issues with our customers BEFORE they buy wheels from us so they know they'll fit their bikes correctly -Tristan
I always hear the "easier to find a replacement" line in favor of j-bend... how often are y'all really breaking spokes in remote locations where bike shops don't carry what's now a common spoke type? This is a non-issue, and really if you're going to be in such a location, you should be carrying spares for things like that along on your trip.
I disagree - based on the number of people who call us looking for replacement spokes for their Roval / Bontrager / etc wheels because the dealer they bought the wheel from can't supply them, I'd say getting replacements in the correct length is tough -Tristan
@@WheelworksHandcraftedWheels Just called the four bike shops within 10 miles of me... all four had sufficient straight pull spoke stock that when I said I wasn't sure what size they said some variation of "just bring the wheel in, we carry most sizes so I'm sure we have it on hand" and I have personally broken spokes at Whistler and Tahoe over the last five years and on both occasions, the first shop I stopped in had them in stock.
@@troybrowning839 I'm glad to hear your experiences finding spokes are positive! -Tristan
All I hear is claims with no scientific evidence. Conveniently when comparing bracing angles you only showed the spokes facing the outside of the flange what about the ones facing the inside? Those are steeper. Also the lack of choice of lacing patterns is being sold as a negative while it's obviously a positive as it forces you to use the best possible lacing pattern: 2 cross for 24 hole and 3 cross for 28 and above. Lacing is 100% faster with straightpull and less prone to errors. Defending J bend really is mainly for retrogrouches, which a lot of cyclists seem to be. I am planning some experiments with a physics lab in Berlin to debunk fantastic claims like these.
Hi Xaver - I look forward to seeing what you and your team find! Please let me know when your experiments are finished up -Tristan