Thin-kerf vs. full kerf- Don't choose the wrong table saw blade!
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- Опубліковано 2 чер 2019
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My typical use of a table saw is ripping strips for cedar strip canoes. I used 3/16" thick strips ripped off the edge of a board. If I were to use a standard full kerf blade, this would mean that 33% of each board would be converted into sawdust. Instead I use a small 7.25" diameter blade intended for a skill saw that has a 1/16" thick kerf.
This means that I am still wasting 25% of each board in sawdust, but for a typical canoe that might need 26 board feet of cedar to make all the strips, using the thin kerf blade I only need 20 board feet. For every inch of board width I am getting almost one more full strip going from 3.2 strips per inch to 4.
BTW, cedar is very easy to cut so heat buildup is not a problem and the smaller diameter blade puts less load on the saw and is less likely to distort. Since this blade is the most likely to be in my saw, I end up using it much of the time when I'm doing other work. They are amazingly good blades for the price.
Just thought I would add another factor in here. Some saws come with splitters/riving knives that are too thick for thin-kerf blades, and can bind up in the middle of a cut. You may need to modify your existing one, or make/purchase a thinner riving knife if you want to safely use thin kerf blades with your saw.
Just enough good information to be high brow. Just enough self deprication to know that life should be enjoyable and we should all take a step back and enjoy it a little more.
Yes! Enjoy it a little more... with pasta :)
Indeed
Great video sir. One point I think you missed is when you run your wood through a thin kerf blade and have it jam on your standard width riving knife.
My thoughts as I've had this problem too.
Great point that I totally didn't consider!
So, I'm sitting in front of the TV watching your video. My wife walks in, sighs, rolls her eyes, and says "Another woodworking video? Really? We'll, at least, Stumpy Nubbs makes sense." That, my friend, is the ultimate compliment!
This just happened to me with my fiance. 😅
Sounds like a load of bs
The video reminded me of the duel of wits between Vizzini and the Dread Pirate Roberts in The Princess Bride.
Our Men's Shed operation used to use 2.5mm kerf blade in a 3 hp SawStop table saw, yet the riving knife was thicker. When this was pointed out to us by a visiting rep from the company we bought it from we switched to the thicker 3.2mm blades.
It’s awesome to look across the timeline of the channel and see the transition from stumpy to the teacher you are now. I am very knowledgeable because of you and the community and make my few hours a week in the shop all the more safe, productive, and fun!
That was a really useful explanation of a subject I’ve wondered about for many years, thank you so much.
First, long rip cuts in 8/4 oak and frequent breaker trips were the primary reason I upgraded my table saw motor from 110V to 220V. Using dedicated rip blades, even thin kerf ones, wasn't the ultimate solution. But even after all that I still organize my work so that all ripping is done with a dedicated rip blade and crosscuts with a combo. I'm never in such a hurry that changing blades is an issue.
James, great conversation and yes, it goes deep with all the variables. But remember, the cost of a kerf can add up. Take for example ripping a piece that is 2” thick and 72” long with a standard, 1/8” blade. Based on the most common stuff we rip ($5 - $20 / Board Ft) that kerf will cost you between $0.63 and $2.50. (The kerf is 0.125 BF) take that to exotics and Holly is $5.38, Cocobolo $8.13 and Gaboon Ebony a whopping $15 per kerf. So having a dedicated thin kerf ripping blade for your saw is a good idea for the next time you will be doing any considerable ripping. Switching to the thin kerf rip will save you $0.16 on a cheap wood or $3.75 on Gaboon Ebony. Everything else falls somewhere in the middle. And that is per rip. So imagine me ripping 1/32 veneers from 8/4 Ebony for banding. The resulting veneer is of less value than the kerf that went into the dust collector! And while a bandsaw rip will leave a smaller kerf, you have to start oversize to clean up the rougher kerf, plus the labor to do it. It’s all a little bit like putting dollar bills through a shredder connected to your dust collector.
Perfectly reasoned, and well presented. Good JOB!
Thanks James, always learning and you’re a great teacher!👍🏻
I switched to a Frued 24t full kerf flat tooth blade that you personally recommended and man I love it. It cuts much better than my 50t combo blade. Thanks for your informative videos. Helps make me be a better woodworker. Well, I still suck at it.
Excellent - as always. I learn so many things I didn't know I didn't know watching these videos. Just last night I watched a video where a guy was going on and on about how awesome thin kerf blades are. Then here comes StumpyNubs with logic and reason letting me know thin kerf has it's issues. Awesome!
Give your saw the best possible chance for success. If you have the choice run it on 220v vs 110v, keep your blades clean, make sure you align your riving knife correctly & use the correct blade.
Basically a compilation of what James brought to light.
Probably the most enjoyable educational video I have seen! Made me chuckle quite a few times! As always, thanks for sharing.
You’ve done it again! Awesome analysis on a debated topic. Love it, sir!
I've rarely laughed so hard watching a woodworking video. Well done, sir.
Thanks! I love my dewalt flexvolt table saw which uses thin kerf blades because it uses a battery powered motor. But I've noticed that I've been getting rougher cuts with my 40 tooth blade when ripping, than my 24 tooth blade. This explained a lot.
Great advice. I was struggling to cut some 2x6 maple on my hybrid saw. Now I’m going to try using a regular kerf blade with fewer teeth.
Something that I do is use a smaller diameter blade when (usually) I don't need full depth. It's amazing how much more power you will have and a bonus is that the blades are much less expensive! Keep up with the great videos, and thanks!
the wood work and tools related knowledge on this channel is far superior to any one else. i have subscribed. and thanks a tonne
FYI, A few years ago i used to watch your videos and didn't liked them, I always felt the need to see some action. Today, I believe that your videos have some much more to offer than the videos from other channels... Some day I'll pay you a beer!
It never ceases to amaze me that people get angry when people see a topic like this and disagree. It is ok folks you are right for your use cases.
Well stumpy, I knew this. Thanks for reminding me of the things I've known, but have slipped my mind over the years, Love the name and your videos.
I switched to a thin kerf blade when I was cutting strips for my cedar strip kayaks. I need over a hundred for a boat. They're only .200" thick so the kerf eats up a large percentage of the wood. Even with a thin blade I had a wheelbarrow load of sawdust. I don't know if you've priced cedar lately, but that sawdust is expensive! Now I only use standard blades if I'm cutting up 2x4's or pressure-treated stuff. But I like your videos - you always drill down into your subjects, and I always learn something new. Thanks Stumpy!
Have taking on this obsession with woodworking over the last few years and am becoming quite serious about it all. Whenever I have a question your channel is the first placei check. I will also be ordering a few ridge carbide blades for my knew Harvey table saw. I was curious about Harvey's Destroyer blades but don't see much reviews about them yet. Thanks for all you do for the woodworking community.
I have a dewalt 8 1/4 contractor saw and before I bought a new blade I was getting circular-saw-quality cuts..(brand new saw) I bought a full kerfed, Ridge Carbide Super blade, per stumpys recommendation.. The saw runs it just fine and I am getting glass smooth cuts if I do my part. This blade outperforms this saw, which has no problem pushing the full kerf. Thanks!!
Thanks James, as usual your video contains a lot of good info.
This site is just awesome. Thank you so much.
Great information!
My first saw was a radial arm which was very under powered running on 110 volts, so I bought a thin kerf blade hoping to solve that problem. Switching to 220 volts made a bigger difference.
My first table saw had a flex shaft which was like a large speedometer cable turning the arbor/blade and extremely under powered. A replacement higher horse power motor running on 220 volts made that saw usable but as we all know, the problem just moves to another area. In this case the cable life was shortened by 50% and a replacement shaft cost as much as a cheap contractors saw. I have long replaced that saw with a 3 hp cabinet saw which is used exclusively for ripping and dados, and I must say that it doesn't care how thick the kerf is.
Great video!
Here's a real -world example of where the lumber savings from thin -kerf makes a difference: ripping a hundred 3\16 cedar strips for a book - match grain kayak.
Once again, very informative and helpful, forget those guys that don't like the pop up jokes, keep them coming; anybody can make a woodworking video but yours are top notch and enhanced by the humor!
When I want thin kerf, I use a thin kerf 7 1/4 inch blade. At 1/16 inch, very little dust. At 7 1/4 inch, no significant warp. Great for a lot of the rough woodworking that I do, but takes a back seat for the finer jobs. Thanks for the ever informative talk.
For a newbie (not sure how long I can get away with saying that), this was an excellent video that explained so much. Thank you very much indeed for making this video.
8 more years
Great information video! I have been thinking carbide, but you have given me something else to mull over 👍
Thanks James, another excellent video. I have a special purpose ultra thin 8 1/2" blade I use to cut mitre splines in small boxes, I think the resulting finished product looks more balanced than a full 1/8" kerf. My saw has a 2.5HP motor so power is rarely a problem, but just to add to my strangeness, I swap my general purpose blade (40 tpi) for a dedicated rip blade if I have either multiple rip cuts or a single cut longer than 4', yielding few for few to no burn tooth. I also used a dedicated blade for sheet goods for same reason. The couple minutes invested a couple times in a day are well worth the efficiency gains IMHO. Thanks for sharing and cheers from BC.
Under powered saw? Three options possibly. 1)slower feed rate, 2) fewer teeth - which is also a good option for ripping, and 3) raise the saw blade up higher so the saw is not carving out a long, nearly horizontal kerf with a bunch of teeth. The last option reduces the number of teeth in the cut, minimizes friction and if you are careful, will not minimize fingers.
Most of which was covered in this video. But thanks for re-stating it.
I actually said "no way" out loud. I don't know why I'm still suprised when everytime I have a question, you already have a video for it. What I'm not suprised by, is that when I find that video, it's well detailed and answered more questions then I had even thought of yet. Thank you for your channel. And I've been loving the old mustache mike videos since I started a big scroll saw project recently. 👍. Much love stumpy nubs.
"You didn't know you didn't know" ... Priceless. This reminds me of ...
"Bootstrap's bootstraps."
"Bootstrap's bootstraps."
... There's one more advantage about thin blades... If you work with POM and you get short pieces that you need to make thin slices of, thin blades waste very little material (as the video already states), but you might get one extra slice (or even more), which results in a much lower cost for materials, since POM is quite expensive. Same thing if you cut aluminum.
-So if you work with very expensive materials, a thin blade could allow you to juust get you one extra usable piece out of that material. (One reason to consider getting a bandsaw for some uses).
For general-purpose rafter cuts, MDF and plywood, I'd probably choose the full size blade myself.
Great video as always, James, highly appreciated.
one of the most informative channels for woodworkers... just good, dare i say GREAT information. last year i built a 8x8 table - one tablesaw in each corner so each has a 6foot runoff, and each can have whatever blade(s) i need for each project so no switching. how did we get to be so lazy!?
Thanks for the great information James!
My dad left me his "Craftsman 10" (1950s era) table saw when he passed away. That gift got me going in woodworking over 15 years ago, and I will always have a warm place in my heart for that saw. That being said, I went out and bought a very nice 5/8 arbor Freud blade for that same old saw, and was disappointed in the saw's performance. The new blade was too heavy for the old saw's scrawny engine. A few years later, I bought a recent Jet table saw, reinstalled that Freud red blade on the modern saw, and the results were jaw-dropping: a nearly-planed finish on all cuts. An older saw engine may require a lighter blade.
"You had me at less math." -HA!
I’d add one thing: whether full or thin kerf, use SHARP, clean blades and everything works better.
Most definitely! Also, the blade quality is a big issue.
Thanks a bunch, I watched this s few times and it is starting to help my paralysis by analysis over blades. I think this entire issue comes down to the saw, if I had something bigger than a 1.5hp Ridgid table saw,I wouldn't even look in the direction of a thin kerf blade. For now I'm leaning 3 blades. 60 or 80t ply blade, think kerf because it was less expensive and I tend to do ply projects in waves..like now, 5 sheets of prefin maples. Then...a dedicated rip blade 24t Freude with a flat grind and thin kerf so I get double duty, lots of thick rip cuts in hardwood, and no dado stack yet. That leaves the 3rd spot for the 40 or 50t combo blade, this is where I'm considering spending 100$ or more and possibly full kerf, either Forrest or Ridge carbide I think..but it's a big chunk of change to find out that a full kerf sucks in this saw. And I cut a lot of stock that's over 1" thick, make a lot of thick table tops and just beefier pieces, all hardwood tho.
Reviews are very mixed if the 4512 can handle it. Only had thin on it up to this point and good results when I don't get super cheap blades.
Great video. Lots of info and lots of laughs.
I had to switch back to full kerf...thin kerf caused lumber to pinch between the riving knife and fence. It took a while for me to realize the problem, and then I finally read the kerf size specs printed right on the riving knife! Just something else to consider when deciding on which blade kerf to purchase ;-)
Thankyou! Very informative. I have a 2hp table saw. I will stick with regular kerf.
That explains a lot. I have a HF job site saw. I haven't noticed it bogging down a lot, but I did just mess up the blade and need to replace it. I had no idea what to buy until now. I tend to do more rip cuts.
Another interesting and informative video. Thanks Stumpy :)
Very informative and with a touch of humor.
"They preform like they're powered by a squirrel and a half."
HEY! I resemble that remark!
Great information James. Thanks for sharing it.
My first "real" table saw was an old 1.5 HP UniSaw and I always used thin kerf blades. 90% of my work was with 3/4" plywood so I probably didn't need it, but I didn't have any issues so thats what I used. When I did work in solid wood I did change blades to a rip blade or cross cut blade as necessary, also thin kerf. The key is to plan your work flow so you aren't changing blades all day. My current table saw is a Felder and they don't offer thin kerf blades. I can buy thin kerf blades in the Felder arbor pattern, but they are about three times the cost of the Felder blades, which are excellent in my experience. When I'm ripping up a lot of plywood that 1/16" makes a difference, sometimes between getting another part out of a sheet or throwing away a 1 or 2 inch off cut. The increase in sawdust was also very noticeable, 25% more as James mentioned. If I could buy a thin kerf blade for the same price (they are usually a little cheaper) I would still run them on my saw, which is definitely not underpowered.
Clearly and concisely stated. Very informative thank you
Your editor needs a bonus for this video!
Ripping strips for cedar strip boats... A strip is typically 5mm to 6mm thick. Using a standard blade turns more than a third of your lumber into sawdust.
Seven inch blades go as thin as 1.6mm... a substantial saving in timber and dust when ripping a hundred 5mm thick strips. Admittedly, cedar cuts like butter.
Is a table saw the right tool for such thin cuts?
Wow, I wish I knew this before buying my blade. But then again, without experiencing the issue of blade chatter/wobble, I probably wouldn't have known it existed or how to prevent it. Great video, this was exactly what I needed to understand about saw blades!
Thanks James, awesome as always.
Those thin Kerf bandits learning something now
Well done. Very organized and succinct.
wortheffort my favorite UA-camr commenting on a video from my second favorite UA-camr. Outstanding!
I’m going to watch this again… I got so fixated on the numerous pop-up comments, I didn’t pay much attention to the actual presentation! Great job, I needed a good laugh..
Damn you James, just when I thought I knew it all, you have to go and spoil it! LMAO. Brilliant as ever!
Seriously though, Thin Kerf builds heat and cools faster, if the same heat energy is input, the lower thermal mass means more extreme heat build and cooling thermal stresses on the blade, causing the Teeth to dull faster and the Blade to warp.
My machine is 2hp and has no difficulty running full kerf blades.
This was a very good; scientific video. I really liked it and it helped me moving forward in my new woodworking hobby. I, unfortunately, purchased one of those portable small table saws for my birthday thinking that it would be the tool that I need for woodworking. It is my first table saw and it's not very precise at all. I think its geared more for cutting 2x4s to build a house, lol!
Thanks again for the video, Sir! I really like the content of the videos you put out. Some of the best UA-cam has to offer.
Great advice. Great video. Thank you for sharing.
Thank you for a video packed with good advice.
Love the preemptive comments! Thanks for all the advice!
Thanks for this info! You just saved me some money from purchasing a thin kerf blade. My saw does not bog down and cuts clean, so I don't think I need a thin kerf.
Regarding the feed rate, in the Jeep world, we have a saying: "As slow as possible, as fast as is necessary" when rock-crawling. That minimizes damage in the event that a vehicle slides while on a rock, causing a slower speed impact with the undercarriage (or side) of the vehicle. The table saw is the opposite: "As fast as possible, as slow as is necessary". The solution to an underpowered saw that always burns your wood is to get a better saw to cut the stock that always burns. The 'underpowered' saw might still be useful for smaller projects, and a small crosscut sled, or miter sled, could work very well on that smaller saw.
I love how he jokes about himself before the trolls can lol.
Great information my friend! love your videos!
Very informative, as well as entertaining. Took me back to 9th grade shop class, except I didn't have to worry about getting sent to the principle's office for snickering through the whole class at my classmate's wisecracks.
You also hit me right in the feels when you said "crappy jobsite saw". I paused and tought "Yep, that's me!"
I like my crappy jobsite saw, we should form a support group 😂
@@rickgreenhalgh1357 I'll get some patches so we can have jackets!
My father trying to rip cut an oak sleeper for me. I suggested i just cut it with my circular saw... eventually we made it through.
As always, a great explanation and 100%, correct
Well that certainly was educational. Trying out some new brews this week? But seriously I do enjoy your tutorials and the down to earth persona, keep ‘em coming!
Another winner. Very useful info.
Great Presentation!!
I consistently look at your videos, and I’m a metal guy but I like your presentations almost to the point I may want to do the same with metal sculpture art. Most folks are way to serious or too opinionated “ this is the only way”. Thanks
That settles it, I'm buying either a thin or thick kerf blade!😉 But seriously, thanks for the pros and cons, lots of useful tidbits.
Great video as always. Thanks.
“Truly, you have a dizzying intellect.” - the Dread Pirate Wesley, the Princess Bride
Lot’s of good lines in the move Princess bride
INCONCEIVABLE!
No one would surrender to a dread pirate westley
James, with all the side bars during the presentation had me cracking up so much. Now I have to rewatch the vid so I can get the gist of these kerf problems
Get the right blade for the job.
--Thin kerf finishing blades work rather well for plywood when you're using a circular saw guide.
--A good thin kerf high tooth count TCG bade can be versatile on a miter saw.
-- A full-kerf FTG blade is nice on a table saw. My great grandfather always used this on his table saw. "Ah que muchacho! Don't waste time changing blades. Square the parts, cut the parts front-side first. Sand it neatly, put a neat finish on it. Have pride in your work. You're going to be stuck with it for the rest of your life.
One thing you forgot to mention is the need to change the blade knife accordinately to the width of the blade... so you usually better stick to one kerf for all your saws (or be prepared to tune the knife everytime you change the blade... even on my Delta it's not that easy to get it precisely set).
Personally, I will never use a thin kerf ever again. When cutting cherry and maple they vibrate so much... It's even worse on a 12" mitre saw...
Try a smaller diameter blade instead with thin kerf.
I bought a used, inexpensive table top table saw on FB marketplace. I then spent twice as much on a beautiful full kerf, glue line blade. I think I made the right decision.
Planning a simple project this year in the "driveway workshop", and this has to be the 3rd Stumpy Nubs video I landed on while looking for information on stuff. Don't know why i didn't subscribe sooner LOL. BTW you had me at "less math" too.
Good info, great subtitles.
William Ellis : I read them in Jim Gaffigan’s voice.
Great information! Thanks!
My dad used to sell Homelite chainsaws back in the day. They were lugging saws and used thicker kerf chainsaw blades than the Stihl's. The Stihl's would cut circles around those old Homelites but would pinch a lot easier.
I switched to the Ridge Carbide full kerf blade soley for the less math. It has helped with setup and more accurate joinery
Nicest blade I've ever had!
Thank you for the knowledge.
Excellent video with good info. How about a discussion of 10" blades vs. circular saw blades? I've switched to cir. saw blades for most cutting on an extra job-site saw (Bosch 4100) and like the performance. I can't cut very thick wood, but it is very good for what I do on this saw.
Thank You for this information… I got a thin 60 tooth for cutting trim and false treads but found it’s not good for long heavy cuts
Great video. Question. I've been having a hard time at the big box stores trying to figure out whether the blades are full kerfs or not. Obviously the ones labeled thin kerf are not. If it is not labeled "thin kerf" are the chances good that it is full kerf? Also a flat cut would be nice too. Do you or anyone else out there know of a halfway decent blade that has one or both of my needs that doesn't cost a fortune. I just want something to cut 1/8 or 1/4 box joints on my table saw and I would rather pay less and not have it stay sharp as long. An actual model number would be great. Thanks!
Always great information
One point not mentioned if you use a thin kerf blade,on my table saw I have to change the riving knife as well
I'm actually thinking about a full kerf for my new (to me at least) unisaw. It's a 3 hp. I think a good full kerf will run just fine
Thanks for the help.