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You do a good job . I too hate the Phillips head but what were my choices as an American a flat head. Uhhh. Then I started buying kits that included square head Robertson about time something that works. Canada ya got it right aye.
I know a carpenter who only uses torx. They are more expensive but the work goes so much faster and never a scratch from misshaps. I wish philips never existed.
In the building of ANY furniture that requires screws, I exclusively use torx head screws. They just work better and faster. Once or twice, I've used Robertson heads. I won't lie, if they were more readily available in my area, I'd probably switch to them.
@@Rancid-Jane If the bit breaks you can just toss it and grab another from the 10 pack you bought for 5 dollars. If the fastener strips you're likely spending 30 minutes trying to find vise grips or a drill and ez out to get it out
One of our favourite gags at work is when we are sending crates from Canada to the US we seal them up with Robertson screws. But not before taping a Robertson bit to the inside of the crate lid, for the receivers on the other end to add to their toolbox.
I'm an Englishman permanently living in Sweden (and enjoying Stumpy Nubs's video frequently). I only came across Robertson screws a few years ago, since Torx are the most popular here in Sweden. I like both. In fact I like both so much that I chucked all my flat-head, Phillips, and Posidriv/Superdriv (a type of Phillips) screws in the scrap metal bin some time ago. All I use, these days are Torx and Robertson and all my 'camming-out', slipping out, chewing-up-of-screw-heads and wounded hands days are well over.👍🏻
Canadian here. I love Robertson screws. You can place a screw on the screwdriver and it will stay in place no mater what position. Where ultimate torque is required, I must admit Torx has the advantage.
@@ronblack7870you do when dealing with small screws but still need higher holding power of said screw. Torx shines with tiny screws (and yes, better than robertson or allen)
@@ronblack7870 Yeah exactly. Torx is just the name; it does not mean it's the best for torque. I mean think about it, technically the more points something has, the closer it is to a circle. And hint, a circle is the worst geometry for a screw head haha
I race wooden outboard boats for 30 years in Canada and the USA. At one race in Canada, an American pal flipped and damaged his boat. The racing family got his boat on shore and assessed the damage, quickly determining repairs could be made in time for the next day's program. Out of nowhete came pieces of plywood, angle brackets and, of course, "red Robbie" screws. My pal was busy cutting wood to shape, happily accepting Canadian competitors' help (borders don't matter in the racing family) UNTIL the moment he was provided with a screwdriver and handful of screws. "What in *!*^? are these?", he asked. We assured him they'd do the job and as there were no Phillips or Slots to be had, he reluctantly started to use them. He went from grumbling to glee in the course of a half hour. Boat repaired, he announced he'd hit the local hardware for "some paint and stuff". The local hardware was the Canadian Tire store where he bought a can of aerosol paint... and boxes and boxes of Robertson screws and a handful of yellow, green, red and black Robertson drivers. As far as I know, that weekend in Canada changed his screw selection preferences for the rest of his career.
Many of us Americans understand that Robertsons are superior, or at least that Phillips screws are the absolute worst kind of screw ever invented. But Robertsons can't become my screw of choice when none of the stores here have any of them for sale. For me I've just converted to torx, since I can get those and like Robertsons they also don't cam out.
I have no experience with "Fitzbobs" whatsoever, but I can imagine the next guy cursing him to high hell for using them, because unless they are popular there by then, they'll probably have no equipment to deal with those screws.
Slot/flathead is better than philips. Philips will be dead one day, needing specialized custom-made tools for old stuff to take apart. You know what will never be dead? _A thin bar._ Flathead has historical compatibility. Philips is just bad.
All the way back in 2011, when I was just 18 years old, I got my first set of subwoofers for my first car. I made the most common rookie mistake when mounting the subwoofers into the enclosure. When I went to mount the subwoofer into the subwoofer box, the phillips screwdriver slipped off of the screw and punched a hole into my brand new subwoofer. I was very upset. My dad told me about the square head screws. He explained how it was one of his favorites because it wouldn't strip out when building decks. I ended up trying the square head screws on a new set of subwoofers. I was amazed. The fact that I could literally let go of the square head screwdriver and it just stay completely inside the face of the screw without falling off. I will never go back. Square heads (Robinson) are the best!
Λυπάμαι πραγματικά για το ατύχημά σου. Σίγουρα όποιοι χρησιμοποιούν βίδες ph έχουν παραπάνω από μία άτυχη στιγμή. Θα έπρεπε να έβαζαν φυλακή όσους τις χρησιμοποιούν εν έτη 2024... Αλλά θα σου έλεγα ότι εάν το μεγάφωνο ήταν Ιαπωνικής προέλευσης ή σχεδίασης και χρησιμοποιούσες τις βίδες της συσκευασίας τους, μάλλον έπρεπε να δουλέψεις με κατσαβίδι "JIS".
Torx are definitely nice, but as a Canadian I can say confidently that if you're using Phillips and you have Robertson as an option, you're certifiably insane!
Weighing in from Canada. As a licensed carpenter, I can say that for the most part, we only use robertson screws. If hardware comes with phillips, we often toss them and swap out the safer screw. They are so much better and safer and even given the upgrade cost on installing random things, it's a time saver.
@@svn5994 I've driven thousands of unpilot holed 3.5in Torx, including building a 400sqft deck... never seen one strip. Ever. And that was while using an M18 impact on the most aggressive setting which commonly strips or snaps the heads off phillips drywall screws. I have seen 300 series stainless Robbies strip out and I have seen old Robbies driven by someone else which were on the verge of stripping after decades of corrosion, but a few taps with a hammer on the driver seated it deep enough to turn it out. Torque ratings on Torx are about 150% of Robbies or Phillips across the board, so you're either using some incredibly inferior version of Torx/Star, somehow screwing up driving them, or making stuff up. Robbies also have a penchant for sticking on the bit after getting the impact treatment, much more so than Torx or Philips. This can be a feature when using non-ferrous screws to keep them on your bit as you start the drive, but in most applications it's kind of annoying as the Robbie will sometimes steal your bit if your bit holder is getting loose.
@@reversalmushroom They're fine if you have to restore something old in its contemporary original condition. Apart from that they're outdated because they're unsafe! The video tells it quite early at 1:18.
no simplicity is the soul of genius. in the good old days we only needed slotted screw drivers. now you have dozens of screw drivers to add to all clutter. most modern advances in technology cause mote problems than they solve!
They are absolute garbage. They don't even self-center the screwdriver in the slot, making them basically impossible to use with power tools. I got several boxes of slotted screws (500 screws in each box) that I inherited that are collecting dust, I just can't use them, it's so much pain in the ass. I'm gonna "gift" them to someone else on the first opportunity.
@@johngillon6969 there are in fact at least 7 different slot sizes, combine that with at least 2 different type of slots. Also if you ever had to put more than 2 screws into anything youd know how much nicer torx is compared to slot or philips.
"Brought closer to imperfection" as a person working in a shop that 90% of the time uses square drives, yeah that is an accurate way to describe the philips drive.
I worked for a Canadian company installing their large machinery all over the world, crated up with stout lumber and a plywood skin. Using all Robertson screws. Except for one panel, using Phillips. Under that was a toolbox including Robertson screwdrivers and power driver tips.
Many of the companies I work at have been the same. Then there was the time the new guy put the toolbox in place and no one had told him about the Phillips screws....
Correction, that so called phillips is just a improperly made Robertson, you just need to find the right size robbie for the job, and maybe a hammer to help correct the deformation
Robertson is 10 times the better socket design for turn fasteners . Phillips is only as good as the very first cut into the screw head , it tapers down to a point to where it can strip easier and easier after use . Face it , some US screw maker won't accept the fact that Robertson is even better than torx , Phillips and possibly a slot screw design .
My first video of yours, and I'm hooked, not because I'm a carpenter but because I'm a fan of clever humor. I will watch this video many times to make sure I didn't miss anything!
I remember when I first became an electrician and used a Robertson for the first time I thought "WTF? This is so much better than a Phillips! Why don't we use these more often!?"
Same here, I used a Robertson bit for the first time to undo some boards on my porch to remove a tree growing under it. 15 year old screws and they were all rusty but none of them cammed out. I couldn't believe how well they worked
@@pong9000 philips is trash. And poorly made philips is even more common and thus more trash. Robertson is good, and even poorly made they still work very good.
I did a little electrical work for a friend in Canada years ago. I had to buy a set of Robertsons to do the work for some reason. I don't exactly remember why, but I liked them and was happy when they made it to the US. Have you used the combo straight / phillips and Robertson tips? They are great, but I keep loosing them!
Using a philips head on an impact driver I've had a cam-out slip that punched a deep hole into my nearby thumbnail. Hurt like hell and took months to heal. Then there's slotted - nobody likes a slotted/flathead screw EXCEPT on carburetor adjustments. It's super handy to see at a glance how far you've turned the screw when fine tuning a throttle or idle mix screw.
@@rexlion4510 carburetor are still used in motorcycles here in India, oh, they do meet emissions standards, costs alot lower than over rated fuel injection systems and very fuel efficient too.
I have been a finish carpenter and cabinetmaker for over 50 years and the first thing we did on a job was throw all the philips screws in the garbage and replace them with Robertson. This is what kept us in business.
I do the same with every wall anchor kit coming with any purchased object: throw away the anchors and Phillips screws, and use my own Robertson screws.
I should start doing this, but with Allen (hex) screws rather than Robertson. I'm British, and 'Allen keys' are more common than anything else except Phillips.
Back in the 1970s I was deeply involved in Speaker cabinets building. At that time there were no accesible power screwdrivers, much less impact drivers available. All I had to hand assemble hundreds of wood screws, were standard slotted hand screwdrivers and hand driven large swivel screwdrivers, as well as expensive Stanley ratcheting screwdrivers that had to be cleaned and regreased frequently to make their crossed spiral grooved axles work properly! Building a large pair of speakers meant ending with sore hands and hurting arms! But the terrible nightmare was slipping the stoopid slotted screwdriver and ripping an ugly and very costly hole through the cone of an expensive speaker, destroying it... OUCH!. One happy day, a good friend of mine happened to return from a trip to Canada, and he brought me a box of "Robertson" head screws and a simple square tip screwdriver... IT WAS MARVELOUS... THE BEST THING EVER, OR EVEN BETTER THAN SLICED, TOASTED BREAD!!! In addition to avoiding all the risk of slippage and speaker cone pocking, one very nice discovery was that the square tipped screwdriver had a WAY BETTER fit on the screw head, thus necessitating MUCH LESS PRESSURE to keep the screwdriver tip perfectly engaged inside the screw head, resulting in much less force needed to drive the screw into hard woods! That was a nice surprise that ended the pain in the arms resulting from having to exert a much stronger force on the slotted screwdriver to keep the tip firmly into the screw head... remember that in the 1970s, we had to drive everyone of the several hundred screws into the wood by hand! All in all, the magnificent Robertson screws and screwdriver were a huge blessing for me. The few Robertson screws that I still have at hand, are even BETTER fitting on the screwdriver tip, than the much overtouted "Torx" of the much recently promoted "SPAX" brand wood screws, as the Robersons are much more tightly held on the tip of the screwdriver! Lastly, those sctews on electrical panels, outlets and lightswitches can be effortless ang perfectly tightened with a number 1 or number 2 Robertson screwdriver, which is very important for getting the necessary tightening torque for proper electrical connections and avoiding overheating defective contacts and fires. God Bless the Robertson screwhead design!
no accesible power screwdrivers? you could easily have, cut the shaft of a robbie driver and put it in a variable speed 3/8 drill? think twice work once
I'm not even gonna watch the video before commenting; based on the title alone I say HERESY!!! I'm a Phillips-loathing American and I hope our Canadian brethren can rescue us from this plight!
Amen, brother! As a fellow American, I stand proudly by my workshop hardware bins full of Robertson screws. We Americans may have done a lot of innovative things first, but the rest of the world does a better job of learning from our mistakes and improving upon them, while we stubbornly clutch the old ways as somehow sacred.
Stumpy, I have to commend you for this piece: not only is the writing stellar, but the research that went into this is equally impressive. Love it when you delve into the history of the craft.
@@Simonfrios ....and what "purpose" is that? Typically, material gets damaged when this occurs ....or someone might get hurt .....so what's the purpose of a cam-out .....more properly known as a screwdriver slip. .
@@taxicamel did you watch the video? Cam out to stop a screw from breaking by over-torquing. it's hard to think of a use-case for that, but sounds like it could serve a purpose
@@Simonfrios Yea, and the part he leaves out or doesn't know is that the "cam out" feature of a Phillips screw was intentionally designed into it, it wasn't an "accident", the very purpose is so that there's screws that can be used on a mass production line without snapping off head's or stripping threads, it's all covered in the language of the patent and is not an accident due to a bad design that just happened to find a home. If industry loved it for it's mass production qualities then ok, so why does America get demonized for that? Another thing not covered in this highly educational video is that there's more than one type of cross tip screwdriver and fastener, and guess what? The aircraft industry doesn't use Phillips, it didn't during WW2 and hasn't since, neither does Japan and that's why the screw head's on all the cross tip fasteners on Japanese motorcycle's and the Keihin carbs on Harley's strip out when you try using regular Phillips screwdrivers on them, they're ground entirely different and a Phillips screwdriver only contacts a tiny bit of the cross cuts in the screw head, Japanese vehicles use JIS (Japanese Industry Standard) cross tip fasteners, they're easily identified by a punch mark dot on the dome of the screw head, all people have to do is just order a set of JIS screwdrivers online and then they can quit blaming America for the fact that they're using the wrong tool for something. And when it comes to aircraft you have to watch, everything from screwdrivers being ground different to different thread pitches on fasteners can easily get people in trouble who don't know what they're doing but think they do, nuts and bolts on aircraft use thread pitches you won't find in a tap and die set you buy at the auto parts store, even tool dealers like Snap-On have to special order the stuff unless they're one that services the aviation industry, even the octane rating for Avgas is measured using a different scale than what automotive pump gas is, that's why I roll my eyes and bite my tongue every time I'm around some screwball who swears up and down about how much better his bike runs on the 98 octane gas his cousin who works at the airport hooks him up with, measured the same way pump gas is measured it's actually right around 93 which you can get at any gas station below 5,000 ft elevation and is a lot cheaper than Avgas, which because it has anti boiling agents and other necessary chemicals in the event it's put in an aircraft with a supercharged engine that can fly at high altitude those chemicals are actually detrimental to what they're trying to do at relative sea level on the pavement anyway, but these are guy's that believe octane is a chemical in gas that the more of it you have the faster you'll go, and I learned a long time ago not to try telling them different, they're the same guys who think all the Japanese screws are junk because they all strip. Another industry that has people stripping screws that don't know what they're doing is firearms, that's why even your best Snap-On screwdrivers strip the slots on screws in guns, and even then the industry itself isn't standardized, there's different screwdriver sets for Winchester's, Remington's, Colts and just about every firearm you can name, that's because they've been in business long before anything was standardized and all developed their own fasteners. The moral of the story is use the right tool for the job and quit blaming your shortcomings on America.
One area in America, where the Robinson screw has taken over is the decking industry. If you’re trying to drive a 3 inch screw into pressure-treated lumber it’s the only screw head design, strong enough to use with an impact driver. I wish we had these in everything.
Here in France there is one particular place where Robinson screws are commonly used : the attachment of the grounding wire in metal door frames, usually done in the dead bolt hole. My guess is it does help to prevent dropping the screw at the bottom of the door frame, where it would be very difficult to recover it.
In Canada, the first thing you do when you by an American product that comes with Phillips screws ...is throw the screws away and sub Robertons. Saves a world of frustration.
I’m an American in a state not too far from Canada. My carpenter brother-in-law loves the square-drive screws. An added benefit he described is that unlike a Phillips, if you start to round over the bit you can just file or grind it back into shape and keep going without heading to the hardware store.
That's one of my favorite things about square drive! Plus, not that I've had to do this, is the fact that you can make you own bit *from scratch* if need be, with just a grinder or file. Can't do that to replace your stripped Phillips driver!
@@goxilo Well, if you have a steady hand, a good eye, and a dremel, you can really make any driver by hand if you need to. I have a long running habit of making oddball screwdrivers out of nails and pieces of scrapwood. I think last time it was a 6 pointed star security driver. I could have ordered a cheap chinesium driver and waited a few days for it to come, but I didn't want to wait. I could have just drilled the screw out but didn't want to risk the damage from flakes of metal getting into sensitive places.
Loved the video! I'm a bicycle repair guy, and the Japanese companies (Shimano), and I believe the Japanese car companies use what looks like a Phillips, but is actually a JIS (Japanese Industrial Standard) screwdriver. I always wondered why the screw driver so easily slipped out. No problem once I got the JIS screwdriver. Finally, the new stuff is using allen bolts.
Tool-wielding Canadian, here. I couldn't imagine the frustration of trying to drive Philips-headed 3" construction screws all day long. You've heard the arguments and I don't need to repeat them. Neat story though- I was visiting friends in the Pensacola FL area maybe 4 years ago, and we found ourselves walking along a boardwalk. I stopped dead to marvel at what I was seeing- the entire boardwalk had been constructed with Robertson screws. I took the opportunity to razz my American host, and even he was surprised.
I'm an American homebuilder, and I freaking hate Philips head screws. If you've got a quality screwdriver (🪛), they're fine, I guess, for little things, but for drills/Impact drivers, absolutely the worst.
My grandfather was a sewing machine repairman in the 70s through 90s. I remember him complaining about the decline in the quality of machines made in Asia. I also remember a few lectures about the evils of philips head screws. He loved slotted screws. I have one of his old long slotted screwdrivers. But I hate slotted screws.
they have their place, the others all require the driver to be straight on or it won't stay on the head when you turn, but a flat head can turn it at an angle. unfortunately, the head always slips off the slot left or right as you turn it too which pretty much negates that one advantage 😂
Slotted screws are great, if you only plan on rotating a screw at one rotation per 5 seconds, and never tight enough to accomplish anything. Great for Grandpa's wasting time in the shed to avoid the wife and kids.
Having a shop standard is the dream! I use pockethole joinery in the cabinetry I make, and I was pretty stoked to find milescraft makes Torx t20 pockethole screws. T20 everything!
Shame on Kreg for making this terrible screw design more popular. Their screws strip very easily and the bit gets stuck in the screw constantly. It's the worst screw design ever made, much worse than Phillips.
I'm English. I spent years with stripped phillips screws and a slighter different version called posidrive. Both useless. Then four years ago I discovered Robertsons, I LOVE them.
I was wondering why pozidrive hadn't been mentioned. because that's my big hate. By a set of bits, and it includes a few of each, looking almost identical, and leaving one to wonder which to use when confronted by a head which might be phillips. Or might be pozidrive. I then have to try a few until one seems to grip best. Is this only suffered in Britain? I like Robertson screws, though, of which I have a few, but phillips are far more common, and to a lesser extent but increasingly, allen and torx.
@@raghardeishi972 Yes many DIY people are confused between Philips and Posidrive. Of course Posi have an X stamped on the head . Some manufacturers have created a Slot/Philips hybrid which are useless. Of course an impact driver will bash them in.
@@raghardeishi972 You an see which is which if you know what to look for, but if you have to explicitly look for the difference I wouldn't call that obvious.
I emigrated from the US to Canada as a child... When I went to my American relatives to install central AC my relatives were blown away by how awesome the Robertson screws I used on ductwork were and how the screws didn't fall off the screw driver bits
"I had a beater" robrtson driver, I would put into my phillip, give it a Bash, and whala ready for another try. Electricians have a version of roberston with wings like a flat screw driver with a roberston diamon in the center, works very well. Do not want slips, tools un controlled, and bashing around in a hot pannel
Typically informative and charming. The triangular drive you show at two minutes in is used on my electric espresso machine, presumably to discourage users from taking them apart, which I need to do. I guess I'll have to grind one from an old Phillips screwdriver. cheers from sunny Vienna, Scott
Canadian here. And living about 5 minutes drive away from the old Robertson factory in Milton. I can't stand what passes today for "Robertson" - the problem is that it's about impossible to find a real one. The entire industry is making "square drive" and there's little or no commonality, besides gross dimensions) between different driver and screw manufacturers (enough to fit 0, 1, 2, 3 and #4 sizes). Back in the day, Robertson made both screws and drivers. Today you'll find drivers and bits that don't seat well in screws and cam out easily. Some have no taper, some the corners are too sharp and require a fight to remove from the screw. You'll find screws with shallow square impressions, incorrect taper, no pyramid at the bottom, far too weak to take significant torque from a driver, etc. These problems all manifest to some degree when hand-driving and will drive you off a cliff to insanity when using a power driver such as a drill or impact. It's nearly impossible to power drive a square screw today with any speed without it camming out well before it's fully driven. Many times, again because of the weak screw construction, you'll strip the screw before it's even gone through 3" of fir lumber. Being in the construction/reno trade, I really wish Torx was more widely adopted here in Canada. While you can find them from specialty hardware sellers and in super-premium products at the big box stores, ion every case they're much more expensive than the common robby.
The same crappy manufacturing tolerances also happens on Philipps heads. The screwdriver is a #3 but the bit os so "sharp" that it fits on #1 screws. Or the screw hole isn't deep enough and you have to file off the tip of your screwdriver. If you get good quality drivers and screws, you get good fit, no matter the type. Get a bunch of screws and drivers from flea markets you'll have problems. And as a Canadian, I'm proud of that Canadian invention and that's all I'm looking for. And as an electrican, that's all I work with!
I remember having such problems when using a drill. Then I bought quality bits from a well know Canadian hand tools supplier and haven't had much problems since. Except for the occasional screw stuck to the bit after removal. In any case, proper bits helped a lot with the other issues.
Agree. The problem with all US 'square' drivers is that the drivers are not properly tapered. Order a set of proper Robertson drivers from Canada. You won't be sorry.
Wasn't there robertson and there was square drive. I think one was a tapered socket the other straight walled socket? Same was for Phillips and Posi-drive.. very often cheap poor quality screws and Hardware was used on the flat pack stuff like the IKEA copy cat..
European here, I've got several Robertson bits here but I can't say I've ever encountered those screws. Here's my experience: most quality products around here use torx, cheaper stuff uses pozi, cheaper products that are both for European and American markets use philips. Wall boxes for outlets and electrical stuff such as fuse boxes use either flathead or a combination of flathead and pozi or flathead and torx.
Same here, I've never seen Robertson head in my life. But I was surprised that there was no mention of pozidriv. That's been the only choice for woodworking screws until recently.
This. Torx is vastly superior to Robertson. They're easier to fit to the bit due to having six correct orientations, but the real advantage is the large rounded contact patch allowing much higher torque - some torx heads are rated at 2,000 nm - the #4 Robertson head is rated for just 8 nm! It's not even close... and while you wouldn't need that much strength in a wood screw, having so much headroom translates to a driver bit that literally never wears out. I've never replaced a torx bit in my life, other than when they were lost.
@@abhibeckert If torx sizing made any sense, and if they weren't specifically designed to require you to buy more tools all the time, then MAYBE. But torx are arbitrary sizes, arbitrary in number of points, and randomly have security holes in the middle that are intentionally designed to screw with you. I have never taken anything off with torx and thought "oh, this was meant to be user serviceable"
@@Normy12 Torx is not arbitrary, it's based off inbus head (metric Allen) - in fact, you can use Torx to loosen rounded inbus head (although it can damage the bit, if too much torque is applied). And how its sizing doesn't make any sense? Higher number=bigger head, it's not any worse than Philips sizing Electronics manufacturers putting safety Torx on everything is another thing, but atleast it's somewhat common compared to tri-wong and other proprietary heads
@@abhibeckert I agree, but please give me a source for torx screws in small sizes (2-56, 4-40, 6-32 with several lengths for each size. Metric m2, m3, m4 would be acceptable). And small (100 or so) quantities. Here in the US it's the same problem with finding a decent source for square, Robertson or internal hex drives screws.
Man... of all youtubers "shilling" things, you are unparalleled in actually coming through with great products made by real people and I have spent so much money on your affiliate links. My wife may come after you. 🤣 I JUST bought a high end contractor table saw for my shop to replace an old cheap Ryobi one that had just lost all its accuracy and the fence was wonky. I would love to have a full cabinet table saw but my "shop" is only a garage space so I don't have a ton of room and have to sometimes move my tools around depending on the project. This product is perfect for me and just what I need to get the most use and accuracy out of my contractor saw. I just bought one of the kits from your link. One of the things I love about your channel is you offer solutions and tips for professional wood workers, prosumer hobbyists like myself, and just occasional weekend warriors. Thank you for this!
I am a commercial cabinet maker, and have been doing so for more than47years! I did use the phillips screws, and then my fasteners supplier gave a box of Robertsons , it was about the same time that screwguns came out, ( they were corded,but they were much faster than the way we were using for more than a decade! I have been using them since! I think they are much easier to use and don't lose their grip on the screw,or CAM out, But it is like EVERYTHING else, PERSONAL PREFERENCE! GOOD SHOW, MY FRIEND!
wow wow wow, best version of John Candy! 20 years ago I worked in a bike shop and sent a very expensive spoke cutter back to the US for calibration and it was packaged up in a little crate using Robertson screws. THe company said they had to machine a bit to dismantle the crate 😂
very likely, as robertson bits were few and far between at that time, I had a few sets, but they were all cheap junk and would twist off, round/cam out if there was any torque required. then again, I could snap off flat heads, both the screws and screw drivers by hand, often phillips heads too. when using an impact or drill-driver, when you hit hard material, they ALL will shear off the fastener just below the head with enough power holding the bit in place. been there done that for 25+ years, when I had only hand tools. yeah I have a very strong grip
Well, to be honest, if you have to machine a bit for something that isn't horrible flat-heads, square is a pretty easy shape to make. I wouldn't be bothered for a second by this, if buying was inconvenient for whatever reason. An old flat-head might be a great sacrificial candidate, since two sides are already shaped close enough.
I’m a woodturner (hobbyist) and was introduced to the Robertson screw about 35 years ago. I don’t use many, but I really like them for mounting wood to faceplates, etc. Of course I use a power screw driver with a clutch feature so I could probably get by with other configurations. God bless those who do flat work and drive screws by the thousands. Thanks for sharing this information with all of us. This one’s a keeper.
Im an electronic technican and we did a lot of huge scale AC ventilation systems electro assambly and used self cutting sheet metal screws. We quickly went away from phillips heads and replaced them with square head screws. 1. most phillips heads got rounded by the bits, once they were screwed in you wont get them out again. 2. the bits for our cordless screwdrivers went dull all the time and we had to replace them so we start replacing them with square heads and torx and we never had any problems.
Put several hundred Robertson head screws in my deck. Drove in like a dream and when I had to dismantle it several years later I didn't have to drill even one of them out!
You must live in a low corrosion region. I live in subtropical humidity, and time before fasteners rust to uselessness is a crucial variable. Maybe stuffing Robertson and Torx with wax right after driving, might change this. Not that they are the worst.
@@billtaylor3499 I don't understand why you aren't using stainless steel screws for an outdoor application. I use them for anything that is going into a kitchen or bathroom, or anything for outdoor use. No corrosion problems ever.
As a Canadian I admit that Torx are great but the relative cost here is prohibitive. Philips are my screw of choice for drywall. Go into a Canadian hardware store (including Home Depot and Lowes) and Robertson make up the majority of screw choices. When purchasing hardware like hinges, towel racks, etc. that come with Philips screws I often toss them in favour of Robbies if possible.
Phillips is good for collated screw guns, which is why it will never stop being the drywall screw of choice. Phillips will also likely never be replaced in manufacturing. It works really well with auto feeding screw drivers on production lines, especially with really small screws. Here in NZ we are big on square drive in the construction industry, but torx is slowly gaining momentum, mainly with higher quality speciality screws. Phillips is ever present.
Most of the screws that come with hinges, towel racks, etc, are almost worthless. They may work in a pinch, if nothing else is available, but I usually toss them for something longer and better quality.
@@Patrick-857 A bunch of computers and tiny electronics do use torx screws. Some of the ones in mobile phones are absolutely tiny, yet still torx and automatically driven. Phillips is cheaper, true.
@wombatillo One thing I hate is torx in European cars. They use that and a bunch of really weird ones. The problem is that torx can handle the specified tightening torque at the factory, but not the required breakaway torque for the poor bugger that has to repair the thing. Another example of European cars aren't built to be repaired.
Robbie's are easy when getting my wife to get me a driver, " Just say " Square Head, with: Red Handle or Green Handle, or Yellow Handle or Black Handle". she always gets me the right one!
I lived in Colorado years ago. As a Canadian I brought with me boxes of Robertson screws and built a few decks for myself and friends The neighbours in the area were flabbergasted at how fast I screwed the boards down .To me it was just a normal day.
Every couple weeks I get a talking to at work because I have a pile of unused Phillips head screws that come free from vendors. I buy Torx screws separately to use. Robertson screws started to become popular with carpenters in America until they discovered Torx. Square drives are still common with electrical equipment. If you walk through the fastener aisle of a hardware store, it's still mostly Phillips, but I'm convinced that no one actually buys them, they've just been there for years.
@@rightwingsafetysquad9872 definitely more a fan of torx than 'square' - maybe it's just poor quality bits & screws we get here but trying to drive in a square at anything short of near perfectly perpendicular with the driving bit and it spits it out faster than my kids with brussel sprouts.
@@alexd9784 Cursed for 20 minutes, then blessed for years when they learned how much better square is than Phillips. Then maybe ignored because Torx is even better.
this weekend I decided to put a single screw in the wall for a picture... a Philips. had to use both hand hanging over the washer to reach... had I just used roberston I wouldn't have strained to touch the wall to screw it in. most Americans don't know what they are missing. makes repairs or dismantling things easier as well.
The living quarters of my motor coach , built in Oregon, are entirely assembled with Robertson screws. As a Canadian it is a treat to pull out the old #2 robby to remove a panel. Another screw I like is the dual robertson and phillips used in electrical applications.
I like those combination head screws that accept Slotted, Phillips, AND Robertson bits. I have only noticed them used on washing machines and garage doors though for some reason.
I went back to the USA (I'm an American Veteran who moved down under as a teacher after 9 years Army) some years ago with my Australian Partner to visit family and she wanted to see Niagara Falls. I was born in Michigan by the way. We drove to the Falls and then the old Fort at Niagara and took the tour... I noticed the cannons pointing across the St. Lawrence seaway at Canada and made a comment ... dumb me, but the patient tour guide then explained the war??? All the years I watched it's "Hockey Night in Canada" on CKLW! Even at 75 I learn something here, thank you.
@@demwood8921 Actually I learned that in Jr High school. Saying that I grew up on 164 acres in Northern MI ... I wasn't aware that Canada was that damn close across the St Lawrence Sea Way ... those antique cannons could nail the British. ... I did learn about Chief Pontiac making a deal with the French to allow logging on THEIR lands in Michigan. Detroit was French at the time.
@@demwood8921 It was pretty much a blip in the textbook for me, I couldnt tell you that much about it. I'd have to look it up to actually learn what happened, all I remember is that the british fought us again to get us back and lost, and thats pretty much it.
I'm an American living in Canada. I was arrogantly clinging to my Philips when I first moved here until I had professional experience with impact drivers. A robbie and an impact is unmatched for framing work that requires screws. The bit fits very tightly in the head, and you can even move the driver around after putting the screw on the bit for a limited time. Phillips is good for amateurs and for furniture assembly from Ikea. Robertson is what professionals use.
Great video. Worth pointing out that in Canada, Robertson screws are so overwhelmingly common that it's actually difficult to find any other head style in the usual big-box stores. Usually you have to go to a specialty fastener store to get slot-drive screws and Philips (the one exception being that hinges prepackaged with screws will often have Philips screws).
I don't know if it's the same everywhere in Canada, but here in Québec most screws sold in stores are either Square+Philips screws or Square+Philips+slotted screws. Yes we have Robertson-only screws, but they're not as common as the other two.
I've never had trouble finding Phillips screws in Home Depot, Rona, or Canadian Tire. There are lots of options. The only time I've noticed a lack of Phillips was when looking at deck screws which were overwhelmingly Robertson. There were a couple models of Phillips off to the side in the specialty stuff, but the rest was all Robertson. Not that I'd ever want to use Phillips for driving in a 3 inch deck screw.
Canadian here, who lived first as an adult in New Zealand and the US before moving back to Canada. One of the first things I had to do was get some Robertson bits. I had been going to comment about how some consider the Philips tendency to camout being considered a feature by some, before torque drivers were invented, but you covered that. 😺 A bit more about the first time Robertson tried to license the design: In 1913, Robertson co-founded a limited company in the UK, called Recess Screws (1913), Ltd., based in Gillingham, Kent. In 1926, another company, Kent Construction and Engineering, Co., Ltd., bought the assets of Recess Screws (1913), Ltd., which included Robertson's screw patent (which they'd been marketing under the trademark "Recess"), and promptly formed a new company, called Recess Screws (1926), Ltd., combining both firms' product lines (Kent already produced other lines of screws and bolts under their own trademarks) under a new trademark, "Chequer". Unlike the preceding, I can't find anything on the web to confirm the following now, but I recall reading somewhere that the other co-owners of the first Recess Screws deliberately bankrupted the company, so that the other company they controlled, Kent Construction and Engineering, could purchase Recess Screw's assets, including Robertson's screw patent, and cut him out of the picture. Ford's plant in Windsor, Ontario, Canada started using Robertson screws -- 700 of them each, apparently -- supplied by Robertson's own Milton, Ontario factory in locally-manufactured Model Ts, and found that they saved two hours of assembly time. Ford wanted to license the design from Robertson, so he could have his company manufacture them as part of its vertical integration, but Robertson was unwilling to license his US patent to Ford because of his bitter experience in the UK with Recess Screw. That said, Robertson himself held the US patent for his design -- apparently unlike the situation in the UK? -- so I'm not sure I understand what outcome Robertson was afraid of.
Because of ford not just wanting to license them but buy the patent, he didn't want to leave the possibility of his manufacturing going down to any other company , let alone one across the river in a foreign country controlled by a competing empire, the british.
My ex-brother in law is a carpenter by trade and he has built hundreds of decks in and around the Detroit area. Since he was based out of Windsor Ontario, he always used Robertson screws. One of his employees, a fellow from Michigan, decided to go on his own. He tried Phillips screws but soon converted over to Robertson which he purchased by the box load in Canada. Other builders in the area took note and now there are lots of Robertson screws to be found in the area since they work so well with deck screw guns.
Compared to Phillips, almost anything (except flathead) works better with power tools. Never seen a Robertson screw here in Europe, and the most common screw used to be Pozidrive (a more grippy Phillips variant), but I noticed at some point the DYI stores one by one switched their store brand screws from Pozidrive to Torx.
Interesting annecdote, i was once removing screws from a house using a drill and one small philips head wouldn't come out, i kept going at it and eventually ended up stripping it, after a brief moment of thought i tried a Thompson about the same size as the hole and it came right out. I was proud of myself for outside the box thinking. XD
You failed to mention that in Igloo construction in Canada, we use Robertson screws constructed of hardened ice. Once two blocks of ice are fastened together, the joint is warmed and then rapidly frozen, causing the screw and the blocks to melt and fuse together. We're not concerned about over torking or shearing off the head of the screw in this application, but we desparately want to avoid the stripping that occurs with Phillips head screws and the resultant dangerous ice shards that fly about. Thanks for sharing the supremacy of Canadian screws with your audience and the world.
@@CADRollHunter Trick from mechanical assembly (bearings and stuff), I summer use a freezer to pre cool them(liquid nitrogen might overdo it), in winter a deep fryer to pre heat them. Maybe cover in batter first, deep-fried ice cubes are a treat!
As an Australian I find the image of an ICE screw too bizarre to comprehend so I'm GUESSING this is one of those Canadian jokes they play on visitors. . . . .
I am an Engineer, so I was curious about the different screw heads and materials. I just disassembled and reassembled a large outdoor structure that stood for over 20 years in Wisconsin outdoor weather. Since I was curious about different screws and drives available I decided to use a mix of hardware. -Hexhead wood lag bolts -Carriage bolts -#2 Phillips head -#2 Square drive (Robertson) -T25 Torx drive -Unidrive (Phillips + Robertson) I also used multiple screw and bolt material. -Stainless Steel -zinc plated steel -galvanized steel -ceramic coated steel (Deckmate) -zinc layer -chemical adhesion layer -epoxy coating layer -durable protective finish As expected the stainless Square Robertson drive could be removed and reused after 20 years in pressure treated wood and only a few stripped out. Most of the damage was caused while inserting them. I believe that I was able to remove all of them. About 30% stripped while trying to reuse them. The Galvanized and Zinc plated steel dissolved away and could NOT be removed. The zinc plated failed completely while the galvanized had less material loss, but enough to cause failure when trying to Remove. The real surprise was the Deckmate ceramic coated screws with the Unidrive. Using the Robertson or the Unidrive allowed them to come out with no stripping or camming out. The ceramic coating even allowed the Phillips drive to remove them with occasional canning out but NO stripping out. Even the Stainless Torx and Robertson had occasional stripping of the screw head. They were all removed easily and all worked when reused. I think the steel becomes work hardened and can be heat treated. Then the ceramic coating with the zinc underneath helps with the surface hardness, grip, and corrosion resistance. Torx creates weaker points in the screw that can strip out, because of thin metal “teeth”. But the bit usually lasts. A few stripped out when being inserted even on the first use. Robertson’s square drive creates immense forces on the screw head because the square shape doesn’t have a surface that is perpendicular to the torque of the driver. Phillips cams out and encourages stripping due to loss of engagement with the bit. Unidrive (Phillips + Robertson) created a bit that engages well with the square feature. The side forces created friction that prevented camming out and the Phillips flanges created a surface perpendicular to the torque to prevent stripping. With less teeth than the Torx, it was less likely to break off the small teeth created in the head.
after a 35 year furniture making career, two things stood out as best value...the square drive screw and the blessed millimetre. Never heard of Robertson. Thank god we dumped imperial measurement 55 years ago (NZ)
There is no inherent benifit to the metric system. The imperial system has measurements that are more intuitive, such as a foot being roughly the length of an average mans foot. I've never in all my life heard a metric user ever utter what should be the most common measuremet. A decimeter. Measurements are somewhat arbitrary, which is why I'd rather use a more intuitive system. If you cant do fractions you probaby have no buisness building anything anyway.
Not going to argue with that - I've stripped plenty in my time with inattention. My car uses Torx everywhere so I've had to buy a load of new screwdrivers (always a good day when you get to buy new tools 😀)
True. Although any fastener experience is improved through using quality tools and fasteners. I've rounded off Tx heads before, usually some user error involved where I've not cleaned out the broach before undoing the fastener. One of the good things about Pz (and indeed Ph) is that for typical DIY purposes you can do about 90% of your work with a #2, and the other 10% with a #1 and #3. So you can have a good stock of #2 and a few #1 and #3. I've actually got some #4 but never had anything that uses them. Whereas Tx, you need a good spread of sizes... They're more suited to engineered items, such as cars, where an engineer has determined the clamping force required and hence the fastener size and torque required. Whereas with wood we just shrug and say "yeah looks about the right size".
PZ is just Philips with extra steps. Garbage material still means you'll murder the profile. Square is great because neither the tool nor the material matters much.
@@Volvith Once thing I learned the hard way - never cheap out on fasteners or tools. I've not really seen Robertson's here in the UK - though apparently they are widely available.
Here is a tip. If you take a Robertson screw, put it on the head of the driver, tap the point with a pair of pliers you can actually hold the driver up by the tip of the screw and swing it around. The head won’t come off the driver. As a Canadian electrician, I love my Robertsons.
Proud Canadian here, I still have some of my father's Robertson drivers from the 1950's complete with wooden handles. They are still as true as the day they were made. i challenge anyone to find a Phillips driver that has not stripped and become dull after 70 years!
The old Philips are equally good. The post-60's Philips are generally poor, as you say. The modern Robertson fares better when being made overseas with low grade steels and poor quality control.
Short version of the story: A friend of mine is a (Canadian) engineer. His company built and crated a piece of equipment that they then shipped to Holland. The Dutch company was apparently perplexed and frustrated when they took delivery. The Canadian company had to DHL a Robertson screwdriver to Holland so they could open the crate. 🤣
Weird, because I can easily find square drive in other European countries, like Portugal and Germany. It would have taken minutes to go out and get a Wera or Wiha square drive which I'm sure are readily available in the Netherlands.
I assume this is going to get covered later, but at 0:24 I can already answer "neither". Torx is the right answer. It's just a matter of time. My favorite feature of the square drive is how if the driver is even off-axis by a tiny amount it will usually cam out and ruin the head almost instantly. The US seemed to flirt with square drive about 15-20 years ago. While they're still available, Torx seemed to rapidly replace it in the consumer's mind.
So many, chefs kiss! Informative history, with little nuggets of humor that only is limited to the amount that you pay attention. Keep this type of content flowing, love it.
When I worked at Hatteras Yachts in New Bern, NC, we only used the square hole screws. The screwdriver was called a 4-way screwdriver, because it had the bits for four different sizes of screws that were used on the yachts. I still have a few loose ones in the bottom of my old toolbox from the 80s.
Fun fact - when you order a Leatherman accessory bit pack for the Wave, Leatherman add a few Robertson bits ... for Canadian customers. I still prefer Robertson for 99% of things - but 99% of things don't use Robertson. When doing electrical work nothing beats Robertson. Drywall works okay with Phillips, never enough torque to "torque out" or strip. And a deft hand with a drill and Phillips head (or correctly torque set impact) will set the screw head about a paper thickness or 2 below the surface. Perfect. I like Torx too but #2 Robertson's do most of what I need. Cheap #1 Robertson screws will strip easily. I even have a #0 Robertson screwdriver - have never used it. When I built my shed I used Robertson screws most everywhere instead of nails. But the sheathing got some extra nails for shear strength.
You'll use #0 Robertson a lot if you're using #4 wood or machine screws in Canada. :) Electrical is Robertson all day all the time - only an idiot would use a Philips driver - that includes in the US - for screws that aren't exclusively Philips.
@@ctrlaltdebug Indeed - (but) for drywall the torque required is too low for cam out, never mind stripping the head. Drywall screws are also nice and sharply pointed with hard/sharp edges on the threads - they cut into the wood really efficiently (low torque). (Oddly enough I have one of these screws on my desk as I write this...).
As an American, I've been buying Kreg branded screws (they're Robertson screws) for woodworking for years. Had no idea this was the go-to design in Canada. If the Kreg screws weren't 4-5x the cost of Phillips, I'd use them almost exclusively. Worth knowing, firearms typically use slotted/flathead screws, but they are not the same as hardware store slotted screws and require (if you want to avoid destroying them) specialty drivers. The difference: standard slotted screws and screwdrivers are tapered. Gunsmith screwdrivers have a hollow grind so they fit precisely in the slot and evenly displace the torque.
As a Aircraft engine mechanic, to be clear we don't use torx at work. But I know the more contact points the better. I exclusively use torx at home and in projects that allow it. Edit: I found a couple of other departments that do in fact use torx also on engines.
European here. I haven't used a Phillips screw in many decades. Nearly everything here is Pozidriv (often incorrectly spelled "Pozidrive") or Superdrive with no cam-out issues, unless you're using the wrong screwdriver, obviously.
The only issue is that people always seem to think pozi and Phillips are interchangeable, and don't see any problem using the wrong size. THAT is what causes most stripping and camming on pz imo.
@@Knowarxana This is just what you think. I well recognize the difference between PZ and PH and I always use the exact matching size of bit but I still have issues. The biggest problems are screws smaller than 4mm in diameter, panhead screws and unscrewing. Who says that he never has camming issues in these cases is either amazingly skilled or just liar. With torx, you don't even need to push on scredriver. As I said - I tried it once and never wanted anything else. And with ball-torx screwdriver, you can even screw at an angle of about 20-30°. Try that with PZ.
Pozi is one of the worst human factor error inducing inventions in recent years. I'm happy Torx is ending the cursing and sweating when servicing parts which were last seen by a "oh, it's just a cross shaped screw head, I'll use my cross shaped screwdriver" person. Especially below M4 sizes it's almost impossible to see the lines and with a good amount of Loctite the damage is guaranteed.
@@m.a.6478 personally I'm a fan of JIS, but I can't count the number of stripped heads I've had to deal with on older Japanese motorcycles, where people have used Phillips, not realising the difference. JIS has a really satisfying positive lock. If it hasn't been wrecked by a Phillips, I've got out stuck screws that haven't shifted for 50 years. I shudder whenever I hear someone refer to a "cross head screw"
The manufactured home industry was rife with "robbies" back in the 60s. In 2008 I went to work for a modular building company in Mentone California. One of their products had sheet steel for interior walls, all held in place with Robertsons screws. They came on a plastic coil fed into an auto-loading power driver and could drive at least 12 screws a minute and more with practice. I still have shoulder problems after driving thousands of those. Not mentioned in the story is Frearson drive screws manufactured by the Reed & Prince Manufacturing Company of Worcester, Mass. The favorite of boat builders, it is a non-cam-out design. One advantage of this type is that the largest driver will fit the smallest screw and vice versa.
Industrial designer from Europe here, we use exclusively Allen and hex cap, they support a buttload of torque, almost never strip (apart from very bad quality or extremely rusted ones, but even then it's rare) and while they require the driver to be straight on, there are drivers that end in a ball shape, allowing for a decent amount of misalignment at the cost of torque. It's a bit weird to me that despite being extremely wide spread in the metal working industry (at least in Europe), it's almost never used for wood working.
Canadian tool maker, we use them all the time. My only issue is the US still using imperial fractions. We have to have 2 sets of tools for metric and SAE. Metric is so much better overall and I say that as someone who started on standard. Want to know tap drill size-subtract the pitch from OD of tap. 10X1.5 tap is 8.5 drill. 3/8-16 tap...Ok first i need to do long math to find its measurement in inches 0.375 now I have to use 1 over 16 for the pitch=.0625?? Now subtract .0625 from 0.375 to get a new decimal number and use a chart to find the nearest drill. I mean you get to know the standards quick, but what a waste of time. Love using a ballend to get at those bad angles or cut an allen to get into a tight spot. The robertson is still better than those for fitting like a collet in a bridgeport(milling machine) taper fit goodness. The square drive is not a robertson, hence the frustration with them. Though still better than junkie philips.
I've don't think I've ever seen a _self tapping_ hex head screw. In terms of what might be called "bolts", they're pretty much the default choice, but anything self tapping is either cheese head (slotted), philips, pozidriv or torx.
@@Croz89 They definitely exist, tho they most often use a different design than the classical cone-ish shape, instead having a drill-bit shaped section at the front followed by (almost) normal threads. a bolt is when a screw and a nut are put together, it's very commonly misused. Now that I think a bit more about it, maybe it's not as often used because wood is so soft you can't really slap a bunch of extra torque into the screw, otherwise the wood just strips, so you might as well play it safe and use a less torque resistant screw.
@@thorinbane ho yeah true I didn't think about that, milling machines (and lathes as well), have square sockets specifically for the chuck, some parts of the tool changing system (for manual lathes at least) and almost nowhere else ! I was wondering whether or not a square socket could transmit more torque (the angle of "attack" being 90° rather than 60° for an hex) , what's your opinion on that since you used both ?
How small do you go in driver bits and screw sizes? I generally prefer hex socket for anything technical but in my experience especially screws made for 3mm keys and smaller are very easy to strip even with good quality hand tools and if the screws are stainless steel the task becomes even more delicate.
You forgot about the JIS, often improperly called 'The Japanese Philips'. They don't cam out. Also, when I was an apprentice mechanic, the only time I encountered Torx was on European cars. I worked at a dealership that represented three European marques, along with one Japanese and a Korean. The europeans were Renault, Peugeot, and Fiat. The first time I encountered them was holding down the seats of a Peugeot 405 Mi16x4. Yet weirdly I was one of the only ones that ever bought the Torx drivers, in the form of a 3/8" set. I enjoyed a few 'free' lunches renting them out to the tradesmen.
JIS are fkn great if you're using a JIS driver. Sadly I've seen so many JIS screws torn to hell by people using Phillips drivers. I've had to cut out JIS screws bc of this.
Hi from England,where we have not only philips but pozi drive as well. you can hardly tell the difference but get it wrong and you strip out pronto. I was so happy when I lived in Canada and found Robertsons , they are the, best no question in my mind.
@@wesdoobner7521 my problem with Allen heads comes down to the miniscule differences in dimensions between Metric and Imperial Allen heads. When some prior idiot uses the wrong size bit/key/socket, you can look forward to an hours long exercise in Frustration as a result.
@@Velshard Don't know about where you're from, but you can get allen key sets that are imperial and metric. Has all the common sizes, and its only 31 pieces total. /s Seriously I never understood /why/ there are two size sets. I'm Australian, so we use both for whatever reason, but having metric sizes for the sake of simpler size names in metric makes no sense.
@@Velshardyes if the fit is not absolutely perfect, don't even try it or that head will strip in no time at all. at larger sizes this is of course less of a problem.
Torx is my favorite screw head. Nearly impossible to strip out. I used #8 Robertson head stainless finishing screws and had trouble with the heads stripping out, not so with the Torx screws I used later.
I am Canadian and a woodworker. I have used Robertson screws all my life and have 100yr old furniture with original Robertsons still holding them together. Unlike Phillips screws, you can put a Robertson screw on the tip of you driver and wave the damn thing all over the place making it easy to feed into a pilot hole. Most of us Canadians hate Phillips screws along with slot.
A few years ago I built a small crate at work to ship some samples to England. I put it together with #2 Robertsons because that’s all we use at work. I included a #2 Robbie driver bit on the outside of the crate so they could open it but I was later informed that they did indeed have one of their own.
That doesn't really surprise me that the UK had Robertsons. Many right hand drive Model A Fords were made and exported from Canada to the rest of the British Empire due to tax advantages (as opposed to shipping from Detroit). The Canadian made ones had Robertsons, so it is likely that they spread throughout the Empire that way.
@@va3ngc Brit here. I have a couple of sets of screwdriver bits that contain Robertson bits, but I've *never* seen a Robertson screw to test them on. Torx are quite common over here, and we also have Pozidriv, which are similar to Philips, but with parallel sides to the "crucifix," which avoids the infuriating cam-out problem. They also fit Philips screws better than Philips bits...
I can guarantee that Torx screws can cam out. I have done it to hundreds of them. As a professional boat builder and maintenance tech I will ALWAYS use a Robertson square head screw. We call them square heads though. I really like that the screw will (most of the time) stay on the screwdriver before you start driving it. On boats in particularly you have to put screws inside crevices, holes, and around corners and blind spots. Even in my home shop I will always use square drive heads. I live in a major boating center port and all hardware stores carry square head screws in brass, stainless, plain steel, washer heads etc. I have hand drivers and bits for driver guns. I have every size from 00 to 3. I can’t recall ever needing ,or seeing a #4 head. Usually go to bolts then or other ways to fasten things together. Even though I have stripped a lot of Torx screws there are actually variations than appear to be a certain size but are actually a “special” proprietary head, especially for fences, decks, etc. Grrr! The box will always come with one or two of these bits but later you have to use trial and error to get the right match.
About 20 years ago a friend of mine who had a contract with a company located at Platsburg (25 kms from the border) sent wood boxes containing home made dies. He made the "error" to fasten those with Robertson screws. The company returned back the 15 boxes with the mention "can't open the cases". Furtermore, they charged shipping to my friend. Stubborn people! We had a great laugh to see the boxes coming back., but my friend canceled the order as he was so angry.
@@trollking99 We never understood why they didn't called in or mailed a request for a solution. They simply shipped the boxes back without warning. I'm sure there was some store at Platsburg where they could have find Robertson screwdrivers.
@@irolaan292 Perhaps they wanted to prove some useless point. And why not just pry open the boxes? Anyway, your buddy made the right call to cancel their order LOL
All you need to do is insert a flathead at an angle if you don't have a robertson lmao, even a posidrive jammed in can work. Idk if i'd trust any product from anywhere that couldn't figure out how to remove a screw without the proper bit lol
I was 45 years old, doing a deck job at my house, when I finally learned how terrible Phillips screws were. Discarded them all, replaced everything with torx and the job went a lot faster and smoother. I use Robertson too, both are great solutions.
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Please check the link below for the Center Finding rulers, when I click on the link I get a web page cannot be found error. Just FYI.
P
You do a good job . I too hate the Phillips head but what were my choices as an American a flat head. Uhhh. Then I started buying kits that included square head Robertson about time something that works. Canada ya got it right aye.
I know a carpenter who only uses torx. They are more expensive but the work goes so much faster and never a scratch from misshaps. I wish philips never existed.
In the building of ANY furniture that requires screws, I exclusively use torx head screws. They just work better and faster. Once or twice, I've used Robertson heads. I won't lie, if they were more readily available in my area, I'd probably switch to them.
Far cheaper to use Robertson with principally the same result. There might be a completely different reason for someone to use a torx.
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I find Torx driver bits break easily. They can't take the torque I guess.
@@Rancid-Jane thats the point, the tool breaks instead of the fixing
@@Rancid-Jane If the bit breaks you can just toss it and grab another from the 10 pack you bought for 5 dollars. If the fastener strips you're likely spending 30 minutes trying to find vise grips or a drill and ez out to get it out
One of our favourite gags at work is when we are sending crates from Canada to the US we seal them up with Robertson screws. But not before taping a Robertson bit to the inside of the crate lid, for the receivers on the other end to add to their toolbox.
ha ha ha
Slightly evil but I love it.
This is wonderful😂
😂😂😂
you need to get out more.
We ought to start a rumor that the Torx drive was invented by Peter Tork, who simply wanted users to stop monkeying around.
Hey, I’m a believer.
Well, Mike Nesmith's mother did invent liquid paper. So it's not that far fetched.
I'm in the "star drive" for the space age camp. (Ie. Torx by another name)
@pariahzero It's difficult to find dilithium crystals to power the special driver though...
🤣🤣🤣
I'm an Englishman permanently living in Sweden (and enjoying Stumpy Nubs's video frequently). I only came across Robertson screws a few years ago, since Torx are the most popular here in Sweden. I like both. In fact I like both so much that I chucked all my flat-head, Phillips, and Posidriv/Superdriv (a type of Phillips) screws in the scrap metal bin some time ago. All I use, these days are Torx and Robertson and all my 'camming-out', slipping out, chewing-up-of-screw-heads and wounded hands days are well over.👍🏻
Pozidriv is infinitely better than phillips
Old Phillips screwdrivers are great for repurposing into awls. Two minutes on a grinder and yer done!
@@islandseeker1260 Indeed, but how many awls does the average carpenter need? I've managed with just one for the past 50 years.
Canadian here. I love Robertson screws. You can place a screw on the screwdriver and it will stay in place no mater what position. Where ultimate torque is required, I must admit Torx has the advantage.
you can snap off the head on a robertson screw so i don't think you need more torque handling.
@@ronblack7870 never happened to me once in over 55 years of using them. Also, after a Philips head strips out, try to remove it!
I'm a American and still like the Robertson or Square Head screws. Though Reed and Prince isn't all that bad.
@@ronblack7870you do when dealing with small screws but still need higher holding power of said screw. Torx shines with tiny screws (and yes, better than robertson or allen)
@@ronblack7870 Yeah exactly. Torx is just the name; it does not mean it's the best for torque. I mean think about it, technically the more points something has, the closer it is to a circle. And hint, a circle is the worst geometry for a screw head haha
I race wooden outboard boats for 30 years in Canada and the USA. At one race in Canada, an American pal flipped and damaged his boat. The racing family got his boat on shore and assessed the damage, quickly determining repairs could be made in time for the next day's program. Out of nowhete came pieces of plywood, angle brackets and, of course, "red Robbie" screws. My pal was busy cutting wood to shape, happily accepting Canadian competitors' help (borders don't matter in the racing family) UNTIL the moment he was provided with a screwdriver and handful of screws. "What in *!*^? are these?", he asked. We assured him they'd do the job and as there were no Phillips or Slots to be had, he reluctantly started to use them. He went from grumbling to glee in the course of a half hour. Boat repaired, he announced he'd hit the local hardware for "some paint and stuff". The local hardware was the Canadian Tire store where he bought a can of aerosol paint... and boxes and boxes of Robertson screws and a handful of yellow, green, red and black Robertson drivers. As far as I know, that weekend in Canada changed his screw selection preferences for the rest of his career.
and so are the days of our lives
Many of us Americans understand that Robertsons are superior, or at least that Phillips screws are the absolute worst kind of screw ever invented. But Robertsons can't become my screw of choice when none of the stores here have any of them for sale. For me I've just converted to torx, since I can get those and like Robertsons they also don't cam out.
@@hairpig I'm about a week away from retirement. Maybe I'll supplement my pension by smuggling Robertson drivers, screws and bolts into the US.
Well, screw you @@hairpig
I have no experience with "Fitzbobs" whatsoever, but I can imagine the next guy cursing him to high hell for using them, because unless they are popular there by then, they'll probably have no equipment to deal with those screws.
The intentional cam out of Phillips haunts my dreams like an evil villain never could. Anything is better than Phillips. Except slotted.
Slot/flathead is better than philips.
Philips will be dead one day, needing specialized custom-made tools for old stuff to take apart.
You know what will never be dead? _A thin bar._
Flathead has historical compatibility. Philips is just bad.
Correction: the "accidental" cam out. Retroactively claimed to be a "feature".
@@Volvith Flathead (slot) is an early evolutionary step that is deservedly near extinct.
Hah! Well said.
@@Volvith No one makes slotted screws in the same volume as Philips nor Square (or even Torx) today. So no, slotted isn't going to suddenly come back.
Being informative, entertaining and 'the right length' earned you another subscriber.
Wow - what a tool bench!
All the way back in 2011, when I was just 18 years old, I got my first set of subwoofers for my first car. I made the most common rookie mistake when mounting the subwoofers into the enclosure. When I went to mount the subwoofer into the subwoofer box, the phillips screwdriver slipped off of the screw and punched a hole into my brand new subwoofer. I was very upset. My dad told me about the square head screws. He explained how it was one of his favorites because it wouldn't strip out when building decks. I ended up trying the square head screws on a new set of subwoofers. I was amazed. The fact that I could literally let go of the square head screwdriver and it just stay completely inside the face of the screw without falling off. I will never go back. Square heads (Robinson) are the best!
And made and invented in Canada.
Weird how it says there's a reply here and yet won't show it. Someone musta been shadowbanned.
All the way back in 2011? Man that was last year!
Λυπάμαι πραγματικά για το ατύχημά σου. Σίγουρα όποιοι χρησιμοποιούν βίδες ph έχουν παραπάνω από μία άτυχη στιγμή. Θα έπρεπε να έβαζαν φυλακή όσους τις χρησιμοποιούν εν έτη 2024... Αλλά θα σου έλεγα ότι εάν το μεγάφωνο ήταν Ιαπωνικής προέλευσης ή σχεδίασης και χρησιμοποιούσες τις βίδες της συσκευασίας τους, μάλλον έπρεπε να δουλέψεις με κατσαβίδι "JIS".
@@reversalmushroom it's been a plague on youtube for years now, their autocensor bot is out of control
Torx are definitely nice, but as a Canadian I can say confidently that if you're using Phillips and you have Robertson as an option, you're certifiably insane!
100% long live the Robertson!
Philips are only really widely used in drywalling.
I can say confidently that if you're Canadian, you are certifiably insane. How's that Trudeau thing going for ya?
There is only 2 things left in the world that haven't been ruined by Canadians.
@@wannabecarguy What? wtf you talking about.
Weighing in from Canada. As a licensed carpenter, I can say that for the most part, we only use robertson screws. If hardware comes with phillips, we often toss them and swap out the safer screw. They are so much better and safer and even given the upgrade cost on installing random things, it's a time saver.
i switched to torx screws a long time ago. the square drive ones still are prone to stripping out
@@Thrunabulax10 Haha and torx don't? Maybe if there werent 20 sizes of torx and we didnt already have robertson but sadly nope.
@@Thrunabulax10 Torx is significantly more prone to stripping.
@@svn5994 I've driven thousands of unpilot holed 3.5in Torx, including building a 400sqft deck... never seen one strip. Ever. And that was while using an M18 impact on the most aggressive setting which commonly strips or snaps the heads off phillips drywall screws.
I have seen 300 series stainless Robbies strip out and I have seen old Robbies driven by someone else which were on the verge of stripping after decades of corrosion, but a few taps with a hammer on the driver seated it deep enough to turn it out.
Torque ratings on Torx are about 150% of Robbies or Phillips across the board, so you're either using some incredibly inferior version of Torx/Star, somehow screwing up driving them, or making stuff up.
Robbies also have a penchant for sticking on the bit after getting the impact treatment, much more so than Torx or Philips. This can be a feature when using non-ferrous screws to keep them on your bit as you start the drive, but in most applications it's kind of annoying as the Robbie will sometimes steal your bit if your bit holder is getting loose.
@@A_Person_You_Dont_KnowTorx is best because only the right size will fit.
This explains my lifetime of frustration with screws and screw drivers!!! Thank you!
There's a special place in hell for an engineer who calls out for a slotted screw
What's wrong with those?
@@reversalmushroom They're fine if you have to restore something old in its contemporary original condition. Apart from that they're outdated because they're unsafe! The video tells it quite early at 1:18.
no simplicity is the soul of genius. in the good old days we only needed slotted screw drivers. now you have dozens of screw drivers to add to all clutter. most modern advances in technology cause mote problems than they solve!
They are absolute garbage. They don't even self-center the screwdriver in the slot, making them basically impossible to use with power tools. I got several boxes of slotted screws (500 screws in each box) that I inherited that are collecting dust, I just can't use them, it's so much pain in the ass. I'm gonna "gift" them to someone else on the first opportunity.
@@johngillon6969 there are in fact at least 7 different slot sizes, combine that with at least 2 different type of slots.
Also if you ever had to put more than 2 screws into anything youd know how much nicer torx is compared to slot or philips.
"Brought closer to imperfection" as a person working in a shop that 90% of the time uses square drives, yeah that is an accurate way to describe the philips drive.
I worked for a Canadian company installing their large machinery all over the world, crated up with stout lumber and a plywood skin. Using all Robertson screws. Except for one panel, using Phillips. Under that was a toolbox including Robertson screwdrivers and power driver tips.
More companies ought to give you the tools to work on your stuff! *said while staring angrily at a box of proprietary tools that I've had to make*
Many of the companies I work at have been the same. Then there was the time the new guy put the toolbox in place and no one had told him about the Phillips screws....
Correction, that so called phillips is just a improperly made Robertson, you just need to find the right size robbie for the job, and maybe a hammer to help correct the deformation
@@n3m37h Works really good on stainless fasteners!
Robertson is 10 times the better socket design for turn fasteners .
Phillips is only as good as the very first cut into the screw head , it tapers down to a point to where it can strip easier and easier after use .
Face it , some US screw maker won't accept the fact that Robertson is even better than torx , Phillips and possibly a slot screw design .
My first video of yours, and I'm hooked, not because I'm a carpenter but because I'm a fan of clever humor. I will watch this video many times to make sure I didn't miss anything!
I remember when I first became an electrician and used a Robertson for the first time I thought "WTF? This is so much better than a Phillips! Why don't we use these more often!?"
Same here, I used a Robertson bit for the first time to undo some boards on my porch to remove a tree growing under it. 15 year old screws and they were all rusty but none of them cammed out. I couldn't believe how well they worked
i did carpentry before becoming an electrician and i miss the square tip deck screws we has every day
@@pong9000 philips is trash. And poorly made philips is even more common and thus more trash.
Robertson is good, and even poorly made they still work very good.
I did a little electrical work for a friend in Canada years ago.
I had to buy a set of Robertsons to do the work for some reason. I don't exactly remember why, but I liked them and was happy when they made it to the US.
Have you used the combo straight / phillips and Robertson tips? They are great, but I keep loosing them!
Same and same
Using a philips head on an impact driver I've had a cam-out slip that punched a deep hole into my nearby thumbnail. Hurt like hell and took months to heal. Then there's slotted - nobody likes a slotted/flathead screw EXCEPT on carburetor adjustments. It's super handy to see at a glance how far you've turned the screw when fine tuning a throttle or idle mix screw.
true!
Yeah, but nowadays most folks would say, "what's a carburetor?" 😂 We are the dinosaurs of this era.
Also firearms, flathead screws look much nicer on a gunstock than anything else IMO.
@@rexlion4510 carburetor are still used in motorcycles here in India, oh, they do meet emissions standards, costs alot lower than over rated fuel injection systems and very fuel efficient too.
@@loendsti just about every pit bike or small ATV use them too
I have been a finish carpenter and cabinetmaker for over 50 years and the first thing we did on a job was throw all the philips screws in the garbage and replace them with Robertson. This is what kept us in business.
Absolutely true
I do the same with every wall anchor kit coming with any purchased object: throw away the anchors and Phillips screws, and use my own Robertson screws.
I should start doing this, but with Allen (hex) screws rather than Robertson. I'm British, and 'Allen keys' are more common than anything else except Phillips.
You should have collected the Phillips screws and resold them in the USA for a neat little profit.
@@jcalpha2717 Don't you dare!
Back in the 1970s I was deeply involved in Speaker cabinets building. At that time there were no accesible power screwdrivers, much less impact drivers available. All I had to hand assemble hundreds of wood screws, were standard slotted hand screwdrivers and hand driven large swivel screwdrivers, as well as expensive Stanley ratcheting screwdrivers that had to be cleaned and regreased frequently to make their crossed spiral grooved axles work properly! Building a large pair of speakers meant ending with sore hands and hurting arms! But the terrible nightmare was slipping the stoopid slotted screwdriver and ripping an ugly and very costly hole through the cone of an expensive speaker, destroying it... OUCH!.
One happy day, a good friend of mine happened to return from a trip to Canada, and he brought me a box of "Robertson" head screws and a simple square tip screwdriver... IT WAS MARVELOUS... THE BEST THING EVER, OR EVEN BETTER THAN SLICED, TOASTED BREAD!!!
In addition to avoiding all the risk of slippage and speaker cone pocking, one very nice discovery was that the square tipped screwdriver had a WAY BETTER fit on the screw head, thus necessitating MUCH LESS PRESSURE to keep the screwdriver tip perfectly engaged inside the screw head, resulting in much less force needed to drive the screw into hard woods! That was a nice surprise that ended the pain in the arms resulting from having to exert a much stronger force on the slotted screwdriver to keep the tip firmly into the screw head... remember that in the 1970s, we had to drive everyone of the several hundred screws into the wood by hand!
All in all, the magnificent Robertson screws and screwdriver were a huge blessing for me. The few Robertson screws that I still have at hand, are even BETTER fitting on the screwdriver tip, than the much overtouted "Torx" of the much recently promoted "SPAX" brand wood screws, as the Robersons are much more tightly held on the tip of the screwdriver!
Lastly, those sctews on electrical panels, outlets and lightswitches can be effortless ang perfectly tightened with a number 1 or number 2 Robertson screwdriver, which is very important for getting the necessary tightening torque for proper electrical connections and avoiding overheating defective contacts and fires. God Bless the Robertson screwhead design!
no accesible power screwdrivers? you could easily have, cut the shaft of a robbie driver and put it in a variable speed 3/8 drill? think twice work once
I'm not even gonna watch the video before commenting; based on the title alone I say HERESY!!! I'm a Phillips-loathing American and I hope our Canadian brethren can rescue us from this plight!
Did you mean Robertson?
Robertson all the way!
big fan of the square. the cross sucks.
Amen, brother! As a fellow American, I stand proudly by my workshop hardware bins full of Robertson screws. We Americans may have done a lot of innovative things first, but the rest of the world does a better job of learning from our mistakes and improving upon them, while we stubbornly clutch the old ways as somehow sacred.
Torx > Roberston
Stumpy, I have to commend you for this piece: not only is the writing stellar, but the research that went into this is equally impressive. Love it when you delve into the history of the craft.
Ditto. Great puns and humor and had fun with the story.
@@earlyriser8998 agreed. His humor is on point. I'll never forget that "cam-outs" actually serve a purpose.
@@Simonfrios ....and what "purpose" is that? Typically, material gets damaged when this occurs ....or someone might get hurt .....so what's the purpose of a cam-out .....more properly known as a screwdriver slip.
.
@@taxicamel did you watch the video? Cam out to stop a screw from breaking by over-torquing. it's hard to think of a use-case for that, but sounds like it could serve a purpose
@@Simonfrios
Yea, and the part he leaves out or doesn't know is that the "cam out" feature of a Phillips screw was intentionally designed into it, it wasn't an "accident", the very purpose is so that there's screws that can be used on a mass production line without snapping off head's or stripping threads, it's all covered in the language of the patent and is not an accident due to a bad design that just happened to find a home.
If industry loved it for it's mass production qualities then ok, so why does America get demonized for that?
Another thing not covered in this highly educational video is that there's more than one type of cross tip screwdriver and fastener, and guess what? The aircraft industry doesn't use Phillips, it didn't during WW2 and hasn't since, neither does Japan and that's why the screw head's on all the cross tip fasteners on Japanese motorcycle's and the Keihin carbs on Harley's strip out when you try using regular Phillips screwdrivers on them, they're ground entirely different and a Phillips screwdriver only contacts a tiny bit of the cross cuts in the screw head, Japanese vehicles use JIS (Japanese Industry Standard) cross tip fasteners, they're easily identified by a punch mark dot on the dome of the screw head, all people have to do is just order a set of JIS screwdrivers online and then they can quit blaming America for the fact that they're using the wrong tool for something.
And when it comes to aircraft you have to watch, everything from screwdrivers being ground different to different thread pitches on fasteners can easily get people in trouble who don't know what they're doing but think they do, nuts and bolts on aircraft use thread pitches you won't find in a tap and die set you buy at the auto parts store, even tool dealers like Snap-On have to special order the stuff unless they're one that services the aviation industry, even the octane rating for Avgas is measured using a different scale than what automotive pump gas is, that's why I roll my eyes and bite my tongue every time I'm around some screwball who swears up and down about how much better his bike runs on the 98 octane gas his cousin who works at the airport hooks him up with, measured the same way pump gas is measured it's actually right around 93 which you can get at any gas station below 5,000 ft elevation and is a lot cheaper than Avgas, which because it has anti boiling agents and other necessary chemicals in the event it's put in an aircraft with a supercharged engine that can fly at high altitude those chemicals are actually detrimental to what they're trying to do at relative sea level on the pavement anyway, but these are guy's that believe octane is a chemical in gas that the more of it you have the faster you'll go, and I learned a long time ago not to try telling them different, they're the same guys who think all the Japanese screws are junk because they all strip.
Another industry that has people stripping screws that don't know what they're doing is firearms, that's why even your best Snap-On screwdrivers strip the slots on screws in guns, and even then the industry itself isn't standardized, there's different screwdriver sets for Winchester's, Remington's, Colts and just about every firearm you can name, that's because they've been in business long before anything was standardized and all developed their own fasteners.
The moral of the story is use the right tool for the job and quit blaming your shortcomings on America.
One area in America, where the Robinson screw has taken over is the decking industry. If you’re trying to drive a 3 inch screw into pressure-treated lumber it’s the only screw head design, strong enough to use with an impact driver. I wish we had these in everything.
Cargo trailers in America are screwed together with Robertson screws..
Travel trailers use a combination, square works best but a large Philips will do too.
Torx beats them both.
@@chuckschillingvideos I like Torx, but in my experience it's harder (ie slower) to fit into the screw vs Robinson. Also I think Robinson are cheaper
Canadian screws better for lumber? There's gotta be a Lumberjack joke in there somewhere...
Here in France there is one particular place where Robinson screws are commonly used : the attachment of the grounding wire in metal door frames, usually done in the dead bolt hole. My guess is it does help to prevent dropping the screw at the bottom of the door frame, where it would be very difficult to recover it.
I don't believe I've ever come across your channel before, but your dry humor is definitely going to bring me back.
It has a very high PPM (Puns per Minute) quotient!
In Canada, the first thing you do when you by an American product that comes with Phillips screws ...is throw the screws away and sub Robertons. Saves a world of frustration.
In the us you throw away the Robertons screws if you ever have to remove them.
Americans do this too. Iykyk
correct
Maybe you do. We don't@@harpintn
@harpintn Lol self-defeating behaviour 😂😂
I’m an American in a state not too far from Canada. My carpenter brother-in-law loves the square-drive screws. An added benefit he described is that unlike a Phillips, if you start to round over the bit you can just file or grind it back into shape and keep going without heading to the hardware store.
That's one of my favorite things about square drive! Plus, not that I've had to do this, is the fact that you can make you own bit *from scratch* if need be, with just a grinder or file. Can't do that to replace your stripped Phillips driver!
@@goxilo Well, if you have a steady hand, a good eye, and a dremel, you can really make any driver by hand if you need to. I have a long running habit of making oddball screwdrivers out of nails and pieces of scrapwood. I think last time it was a 6 pointed star security driver.
I could have ordered a cheap chinesium driver and waited a few days for it to come, but I didn't want to wait. I could have just drilled the screw out but didn't want to risk the damage from flakes of metal getting into sensitive places.
I do this with Torx also. Zing it on the belt sander for 2 seconds while spinning your drill, and back to getting stuff done.
Tell him to buy the Robertson bits with carbide inserts. They take ages to wear out. TASK makes and sells them in Home Depot Canada.
Loved the video! I'm a bicycle repair guy, and the Japanese companies (Shimano), and I believe the Japanese car companies use what looks like a Phillips, but is actually a JIS (Japanese Industrial Standard) screwdriver. I always wondered why the screw driver so easily slipped out. No problem once I got the JIS screwdriver. Finally, the new stuff is using allen bolts.
An important point which I wish had been raised because it applies to all Japanese motor cycles as well.
Tool-wielding Canadian, here. I couldn't imagine the frustration of trying to drive Philips-headed 3" construction screws all day long. You've heard the arguments and I don't need to repeat them. Neat story though- I was visiting friends in the Pensacola FL area maybe 4 years ago, and we found ourselves walking along a boardwalk. I stopped dead to marvel at what I was seeing- the entire boardwalk had been constructed with Robertson screws. I took the opportunity to razz my American host, and even he was surprised.
I'm an American homebuilder, and I freaking hate Philips head screws. If you've got a quality screwdriver (🪛), they're fine, I guess, for little things, but for drills/Impact drivers, absolutely the worst.
Good for new, clean things going together, but taking apart old, out in the weather can be hit or miss.
They are almost always star head in America.
@@michael_mcgowan Sounds like user error to me, eh.
@@pickelsvx Sounds like some loser who needs to try and put other people down because he can't come to grips with how pathetic he feels to me, eh
I live in the uk and Ive never in my life seen or heard of a square head screw. The existence of such a thing baffles yet intrigues me
They are the best. You should get some Robertsons.
I buy Robertson decking screws in tubs of 1500 and use several each season. Thank goodness for Robertson screws and lithium impact drivers.❤
As a Canadian who moved to the U.K. I miss Robertson
Living in Canada, its the screw of choice. Phillips have the disadvantages mentioned. Robertson by far used here.
Common in pocket screws
My grandfather was a sewing machine repairman in the 70s through 90s. I remember him complaining about the decline in the quality of machines made in Asia. I also remember a few lectures about the evils of philips head screws. He loved slotted screws. I have one of his old long slotted screwdrivers. But I hate slotted screws.
they have their place, the others all require the driver to be straight on or it won't stay on the head when you turn, but a flat head can turn it at an angle. unfortunately, the head always slips off the slot left or right as you turn it too which pretty much negates that one advantage 😂
Let's not even start on Allen Keys.
the only advantage of slotted screws is that they are the one screw that can be easily removed using makeshift tools such as a butter knife.
@@islandwills2778 There is one other advantage - slotted screws make the best "ting" sound as you toss them in the garbage can in a fit of rage.
Slotted screws are great, if you only plan on rotating a screw at one rotation per 5 seconds, and never tight enough to accomplish anything.
Great for Grandpa's wasting time in the shed to avoid the wife and kids.
Coming to Canada from the UK I’m a great fan of the square head screw. It’s amazing that they’re still pushing the ordinary slit screw in Europe. 😮
i was thinking about torx the whole time. very funny at the end
It only took us a century to figure it out. Progress!
Robertson drivers have a consistent colour code, which makes it easy to find the right one with a glance. Also, John Candy was the best Chris Farley.
I can’t find a color-coded Robertson set in US retailers. Everything is instead color-coded according to brand.
@@spencerjoplin2885 harbor freight
It's so logical its almost.... metric
@@ad905 Now, imagine if SAE had decimals instead of janky fractions
@@InfernosReaper fractions are only janky if you lack the intellect to use them..
Thank you Kreg for single-handedly popularizing #2 Robertson in the States. It’s my shop standard.
Having a shop standard is the dream! I use pockethole joinery in the cabinetry I make, and I was pretty stoked to find milescraft makes Torx t20 pockethole screws. T20 everything!
@@leestuurmans2837 Yeah, but sometimes you need two hands to guide the Torx screw into the pocket. Not so with the Robertson.
square suck.
Shame on Kreg for making this terrible screw design more popular. Their screws strip very easily and the bit gets stuck in the screw constantly. It's the worst screw design ever made, much worse than Phillips.
@@coolbugfacts1234
Wow, this was so fascinating!! I had no idea...of course I didn't!! You're the one who is bringing it to us all! Thanks, this was very enjoyable!
I'm English. I spent years with stripped phillips screws and a slighter different version called posidrive. Both useless. Then four years ago I discovered Robertsons, I LOVE them.
I was wondering why pozidrive hadn't been mentioned. because that's my big hate. By a set of bits, and it includes a few of each, looking almost identical, and leaving one to wonder which to use when confronted by a head which might be phillips. Or might be pozidrive. I then have to try a few until one seems to grip best. Is this only suffered in Britain? I like Robertson screws, though, of which I have a few, but phillips are far more common, and to a lesser extent but increasingly, allen and torx.
@@ColinElliott-nx4rk You can like look at screw, and look at screwdriver. It's obvious which fits which.
@@raghardeishi972 Yes many DIY people are confused between Philips and Posidrive. Of course Posi have an X stamped on the head . Some manufacturers have created a Slot/Philips hybrid which are useless. Of course an impact driver will bash them in.
Pozidrive is essentially an improved Phillips allowing for more torque and reduced tendency to cam out.
@@raghardeishi972 You an see which is which if you know what to look for, but if you have to explicitly look for the difference I wouldn't call that obvious.
I emigrated from the US to Canada as a child... When I went to my American relatives to install central AC my relatives were blown away by how awesome the Robertson screws I used on ductwork were and how the screws didn't fall off the screw driver bits
Fun fact, phillips head screws, when stripped, basically become robertson head screws. It's shockingly easy to remove them that way.
I'll often use a Robertson screwdriver on un-cammed out Philips screws/bolts.
I've tested this fact many times and while true, it is almost never "fun"
@@scottshannon3654 But it is fun, it means every phillips screw is actually a robertson screw in disguise. Just gotta strip em first.
"I had a beater" robrtson driver, I would put into my phillip, give it a Bash, and whala ready for another try. Electricians have a version of roberston with wings like a flat screw driver with a roberston diamon in the center, works very well. Do not want slips, tools un controlled, and bashing around in a hot pannel
#3 Phillips screws also fit #2 Robertson drive tips.
Edit for clarity.
Typically informative and charming. The triangular drive you show at two minutes in is used on my electric espresso machine, presumably to discourage users from taking them apart, which I need to do. I guess I'll have to grind one from an old Phillips screwdriver.
cheers from sunny Vienna, Scott
Canadian here. And living about 5 minutes drive away from the old Robertson factory in Milton. I can't stand what passes today for "Robertson" - the problem is that it's about impossible to find a real one. The entire industry is making "square drive" and there's little or no commonality, besides gross dimensions) between different driver and screw manufacturers (enough to fit 0, 1, 2, 3 and #4 sizes). Back in the day, Robertson made both screws and drivers. Today you'll find drivers and bits that don't seat well in screws and cam out easily. Some have no taper, some the corners are too sharp and require a fight to remove from the screw. You'll find screws with shallow square impressions, incorrect taper, no pyramid at the bottom, far too weak to take significant torque from a driver, etc. These problems all manifest to some degree when hand-driving and will drive you off a cliff to insanity when using a power driver such as a drill or impact. It's nearly impossible to power drive a square screw today with any speed without it camming out well before it's fully driven. Many times, again because of the weak screw construction, you'll strip the screw before it's even gone through 3" of fir lumber.
Being in the construction/reno trade, I really wish Torx was more widely adopted here in Canada. While you can find them from specialty hardware sellers and in super-premium products at the big box stores, ion every case they're much more expensive than the common robby.
The same crappy manufacturing tolerances also happens on Philipps heads. The screwdriver is a #3 but the bit os so "sharp" that it fits on #1 screws. Or the screw hole isn't deep enough and you have to file off the tip of your screwdriver. If you get good quality drivers and screws, you get good fit, no matter the type. Get a bunch of screws and drivers from flea markets you'll have problems. And as a Canadian, I'm proud of that Canadian invention and that's all I'm looking for. And as an electrican, that's all I work with!
And the cheap Chinese shit now days with the screws that aren't a #2 but no where close to a #3. And they strip pretty easy.
I remember having such problems when using a drill. Then I bought quality bits from a well know Canadian hand tools supplier and haven't had much problems since. Except for the occasional screw stuck to the bit after removal. In any case, proper bits helped a lot with the other issues.
Agree. The problem with all US 'square' drivers is that the drivers are not properly tapered. Order a set of proper Robertson drivers from Canada. You won't be sorry.
Wasn't there robertson and there was square drive.
I think one was a tapered socket the other straight walled socket?
Same was for Phillips and Posi-drive.. very often cheap poor quality screws and Hardware was used on the flat pack stuff like the IKEA copy cat..
European here, I've got several Robertson bits here but I can't say I've ever encountered those screws. Here's my experience: most quality products around here use torx, cheaper stuff uses pozi, cheaper products that are both for European and American markets use philips. Wall boxes for outlets and electrical stuff such as fuse boxes use either flathead or a combination of flathead and pozi or flathead and torx.
Same here, I've never seen Robertson head in my life. But I was surprised that there was no mention of pozidriv. That's been the only choice for woodworking screws until recently.
This. Torx is vastly superior to Robertson. They're easier to fit to the bit due to having six correct orientations, but the real advantage is the large rounded contact patch allowing much higher torque - some torx heads are rated at 2,000 nm - the #4 Robertson head is rated for just 8 nm! It's not even close... and while you wouldn't need that much strength in a wood screw, having so much headroom translates to a driver bit that literally never wears out. I've never replaced a torx bit in my life, other than when they were lost.
@@abhibeckert If torx sizing made any sense, and if they weren't specifically designed to require you to buy more tools all the time, then MAYBE.
But torx are arbitrary sizes, arbitrary in number of points, and randomly have security holes in the middle that are intentionally designed to screw with you. I have never taken anything off with torx and thought "oh, this was meant to be user serviceable"
@@Normy12 Torx is not arbitrary, it's based off inbus head (metric Allen) - in fact, you can use Torx to loosen rounded inbus head (although it can damage the bit, if too much torque is applied). And how its sizing doesn't make any sense? Higher number=bigger head, it's not any worse than Philips sizing
Electronics manufacturers putting safety Torx on everything is another thing, but atleast it's somewhat common compared to tri-wong and other proprietary heads
@@abhibeckert I agree, but please give me a source for torx screws in small sizes (2-56, 4-40, 6-32 with several lengths for each size. Metric m2, m3, m4 would be acceptable). And small (100 or so) quantities. Here in the US it's the same problem with finding a decent source for square, Robertson or internal hex drives screws.
Man... of all youtubers "shilling" things, you are unparalleled in actually coming through with great products made by real people and I have spent so much money on your affiliate links. My wife may come after you. 🤣
I JUST bought a high end contractor table saw for my shop to replace an old cheap Ryobi one that had just lost all its accuracy and the fence was wonky. I would love to have a full cabinet table saw but my "shop" is only a garage space so I don't have a ton of room and have to sometimes move my tools around depending on the project. This product is perfect for me and just what I need to get the most use and accuracy out of my contractor saw. I just bought one of the kits from your link. One of the things I love about your channel is you offer solutions and tips for professional wood workers, prosumer hobbyists like myself, and just occasional weekend warriors. Thank you for this!
I am a commercial cabinet maker, and have been doing so for more than47years!
I did use the phillips screws, and then my fasteners supplier gave a box of Robertsons , it was about the same time that screwguns came out, ( they were corded,but they were much faster than the way we were using for more than a decade!
I have been using them since! I think they are much easier to use and don't lose their grip on the screw,or CAM out,
But it is like EVERYTHING else, PERSONAL PREFERENCE!
GOOD SHOW, MY FRIEND!
wow wow wow, best version of John Candy!
20 years ago I worked in a bike shop and sent a very expensive spoke cutter back to the US for calibration and it was packaged up in a little crate using Robertson screws.
THe company said they had to machine a bit to dismantle the crate 😂
very likely, as robertson bits were few and far between at that time, I had a few sets, but they were all cheap junk and would twist off, round/cam out if there was any torque required.
then again, I could snap off flat heads, both the screws and screw drivers by hand, often phillips heads too. when using an impact or drill-driver, when you hit hard material, they ALL will shear off the fastener just below the head with enough power holding the bit in place. been there done that for 25+ years, when I had only hand tools. yeah I have a very strong grip
Strange, because three sizes of Robertson bits come in almost every driver bit set.
Well, to be honest, if you have to machine a bit for something that isn't horrible flat-heads, square is a pretty easy shape to make. I wouldn't be bothered for a second by this, if buying was inconvenient for whatever reason. An old flat-head might be a great sacrificial candidate, since two sides are already shaped close enough.
I’m a woodturner (hobbyist) and was introduced to the Robertson screw about 35 years ago. I don’t use many, but I really like them for mounting wood to faceplates, etc. Of course I use a power screw driver with a clutch feature so I could probably get by with other configurations. God bless those who do flat work and drive screws by the thousands. Thanks for sharing this information with all of us. This one’s a keeper.
Im an electronic technican and we did a lot of huge scale AC ventilation systems electro assambly and used self cutting sheet metal screws. We quickly went away from phillips heads and replaced them with square head screws.
1. most phillips heads got rounded by the bits, once they were screwed in you wont get them out again.
2. the bits for our cordless screwdrivers went dull all the time and we had to replace them
so we start replacing them with square heads and torx and we never had any problems.
The entire time I was yelling ToRX! Great history lesson. I like history.
Put several hundred Robertson head screws in my deck. Drove in like a dream and when I had to dismantle it several years later I didn't have to drill even one of them out!
You must live in a low corrosion region. I live in subtropical humidity, and time before fasteners rust to uselessness is a crucial variable. Maybe stuffing Robertson and Torx with wax right after driving, might change this. Not that they are the worst.
@@billtaylor3499 I don't understand why you aren't using stainless steel screws for an outdoor application. I use them for anything that is going into a kitchen or bathroom, or anything for outdoor use. No corrosion problems ever.
As a Canadian I admit that Torx are great but the relative cost here is prohibitive. Philips are my screw of choice for drywall. Go into a Canadian hardware store (including Home Depot and Lowes) and Robertson make up the majority of screw choices. When purchasing hardware like hinges, towel racks, etc. that come with Philips screws I often toss them in favour of Robbies if possible.
Phillips is good for collated screw guns, which is why it will never stop being the drywall screw of choice.
Phillips will also likely never be replaced in manufacturing. It works really well with auto feeding screw drivers on production lines, especially with really small screws.
Here in NZ we are big on square drive in the construction industry, but torx is slowly gaining momentum, mainly with higher quality speciality screws. Phillips is ever present.
Most of the screws that come with hinges, towel racks, etc, are almost worthless. They may work in a pinch, if nothing else is available, but I usually toss them for something longer and better quality.
Interesting, here in Europe they are only at most about 20% more expensive than pozi, well worth it though...
@@Patrick-857 A bunch of computers and tiny electronics do use torx screws. Some of the ones in mobile phones are absolutely tiny, yet still torx and automatically driven. Phillips is cheaper, true.
@wombatillo One thing I hate is torx in European cars. They use that and a bunch of really weird ones. The problem is that torx can handle the specified tightening torque at the factory, but not the required breakaway torque for the poor bugger that has to repair the thing. Another example of European cars aren't built to be repaired.
Robbie's are easy when getting my wife to get me a driver, " Just say " Square Head, with: Red Handle or Green Handle, or Yellow Handle or Black Handle". she always gets me the right one!
I keep getting distracted analyzing your super-organized workbenches. 😍 So lovely!! 🤤 Then I have to rewind to hear what you said.
Love that you're infusing your great sense of humor back into your videos while keeping then well researched and informative. Well done !
I lived in Colorado years ago. As a Canadian I brought with me boxes of Robertson screws and built a few decks for myself and friends The neighbours in the area were flabbergasted at how fast I screwed the boards down .To me it was just a normal day.
Every couple weeks I get a talking to at work because I have a pile of unused Phillips head screws that come free from vendors. I buy Torx screws separately to use. Robertson screws started to become popular with carpenters in America until they discovered Torx. Square drives are still common with electrical equipment.
If you walk through the fastener aisle of a hardware store, it's still mostly Phillips, but I'm convinced that no one actually buys them, they've just been there for years.
@@rightwingsafetysquad9872 definitely more a fan of torx than 'square' - maybe it's just poor quality bits & screws we get here but trying to drive in a square at anything short of near perfectly perpendicular with the driving bit and it spits it out faster than my kids with brussel sprouts.
@@alexd9784 Cursed for 20 minutes, then blessed for years when they learned how much better square is than Phillips. Then maybe ignored because Torx is even better.
@@alexd9784call me what you want but don’t call me late for dinner
this weekend I decided to put a single screw in the wall for a picture... a Philips. had to use both hand hanging over the washer to reach... had I just used roberston I wouldn't have strained to touch the wall to screw it in. most Americans don't know what they are missing.
makes repairs or dismantling things easier as well.
The living quarters of my motor coach , built in Oregon, are entirely assembled with Robertson screws. As a Canadian it is a treat to pull out the old #2 robby to remove a panel. Another screw I like is the dual robertson and phillips used in electrical applications.
I like those combination head screws that accept Slotted, Phillips, AND Robertson bits. I have only noticed them used on washing machines and garage doors though for some reason.
@@MildMisanthropeMaybeMassive ecx screws?
@@portable_wall9222 I think so. Google also brings up something called a Combination-Head.
I went back to the USA (I'm an American Veteran who moved down under as a teacher after 9 years Army) some years ago with my Australian Partner to visit family and she wanted to see Niagara Falls. I was born in Michigan by the way. We drove to the Falls and then the old Fort at Niagara and took the tour... I noticed the cannons pointing across the St. Lawrence seaway at Canada and made a comment ... dumb me, but the patient tour guide then explained the war??? All the years I watched it's "Hockey Night in Canada" on CKLW!
Even at 75 I learn something here, thank you.
You mean the War of 1812? I wager they don't teach that in US schools.
@@demwood8921 Actually I learned that in Jr High school. Saying that I grew up on 164 acres in Northern MI ... I wasn't aware that Canada was that damn close across the St Lawrence Sea Way ... those antique cannons could nail the British. ... I did learn about Chief Pontiac making a deal with the French to allow logging on THEIR lands in Michigan. Detroit was French at the time.
@@demwood8921 It was pretty much a blip in the textbook for me, I couldnt tell you that much about it. I'd have to look it up to actually learn what happened, all I remember is that the british fought us again to get us back and lost, and thats pretty much it.
I'm an American living in Canada. I was arrogantly clinging to my Philips when I first moved here until I had professional experience with impact drivers. A robbie and an impact is unmatched for framing work that requires screws. The bit fits very tightly in the head, and you can even move the driver around after putting the screw on the bit for a limited time.
Phillips is good for amateurs and for furniture assembly from Ikea. Robertson is what professionals use.
Great video. Worth pointing out that in Canada, Robertson screws are so overwhelmingly common that it's actually difficult to find any other head style in the usual big-box stores. Usually you have to go to a specialty fastener store to get slot-drive screws and Philips (the one exception being that hinges prepackaged with screws will often have Philips screws).
Philips are still annoyingly common. We rely too much on US stuff.
I don't know if it's the same everywhere in Canada, but here in Québec most screws sold in stores are either Square+Philips screws or Square+Philips+slotted screws. Yes we have Robertson-only screws, but they're not as common as the other two.
Those screws that come with hinges are almost invariably shitty and need to be thrown away.
I've never had trouble finding Phillips screws in Home Depot, Rona, or Canadian Tire. There are lots of options.
The only time I've noticed a lack of Phillips was when looking at deck screws which were overwhelmingly Robertson. There were a couple models of Phillips off to the side in the specialty stuff, but the rest was all Robertson. Not that I'd ever want to use Phillips for driving in a 3 inch deck screw.
Torx are pretty common now
Canadian here, who lived first as an adult in New Zealand and the US before moving back to Canada. One of the first things I had to do was get some Robertson bits. I had been going to comment about how some consider the Philips tendency to camout being considered a feature by some, before torque drivers were invented, but you covered that. 😺
A bit more about the first time Robertson tried to license the design: In 1913, Robertson co-founded a limited company in the UK, called Recess Screws (1913), Ltd., based in Gillingham, Kent. In 1926, another company, Kent Construction and Engineering, Co., Ltd., bought the assets of Recess Screws (1913), Ltd., which included Robertson's screw patent (which they'd been marketing under the trademark "Recess"), and promptly formed a new company, called Recess Screws (1926), Ltd., combining both firms' product lines (Kent already produced other lines of screws and bolts under their own trademarks) under a new trademark, "Chequer". Unlike the preceding, I can't find anything on the web to confirm the following now, but I recall reading somewhere that the other co-owners of the first Recess Screws deliberately bankrupted the company, so that the other company they controlled, Kent Construction and Engineering, could purchase Recess Screw's assets, including Robertson's screw patent, and cut him out of the picture.
Ford's plant in Windsor, Ontario, Canada started using Robertson screws -- 700 of them each, apparently -- supplied by Robertson's own Milton, Ontario factory in locally-manufactured Model Ts, and found that they saved two hours of assembly time. Ford wanted to license the design from Robertson, so he could have his company manufacture them as part of its vertical integration, but Robertson was unwilling to license his US patent to Ford because of his bitter experience in the UK with Recess Screw. That said, Robertson himself held the US patent for his design -- apparently unlike the situation in the UK? -- so I'm not sure I understand what outcome Robertson was afraid of.
Because of ford not just wanting to license them but buy the patent, he didn't want to leave the possibility of his manufacturing going down to any other company , let alone one across the river in a foreign country controlled by a competing empire, the british.
Great presentation. You are gifted at explaining things with a hint of humor.
I love your blend of humour and information, James, and this is a classic Stumpy Nubbs video. Excellent - thank you.
The Torx, the solution to the the problem that had already been solved.
Ding Ding Ding.. I only see Torx in the US.. Them weirdos to the north still using squares.. Guess South park got them right lol..
@@FJB2020 People use them in NZ if they're doing high-end construction work and don't care about the cost of the screws
The best thing about Torx screws is when your screw is a T20 and your bit is a T25
@@cottrelr That's why you get a bit kit that has like five or six of each. 😅
And Spax T-Star is the answer to torx ;-)
My ex-brother in law is a carpenter by trade and he has built hundreds of decks in and around the Detroit area. Since he was based out of Windsor Ontario, he always used Robertson screws. One of his employees, a fellow from Michigan, decided to go on his own. He tried Phillips screws but soon converted over to Robertson which he purchased by the box load in Canada. Other builders in the area took note and now there are lots of Robertson screws to be found in the area since they work so well with deck screw guns.
Compared to Phillips, almost anything (except flathead) works better with power tools. Never seen a Robertson screw here in Europe, and the most common screw used to be Pozidrive (a more grippy Phillips variant), but I noticed at some point the DYI stores one by one switched their store brand screws from Pozidrive to Torx.
@@kaasmeester5903 Square (not Robertson) is quite popular for example in ikea furniture. Torx is no doubt the superior option.
Interesting annecdote, i was once removing screws from a house using a drill and one small philips head wouldn't come out, i kept going at it and eventually ended up stripping it, after a brief moment of thought i tried a Thompson about the same size as the hole and it came right out. I was proud of myself for outside the box thinking. XD
You failed to mention that in Igloo construction in Canada, we use Robertson screws constructed of hardened ice. Once two blocks of ice are fastened together, the joint is warmed and then rapidly frozen, causing the screw and the blocks to melt and fuse together. We're not concerned about over torking or shearing off the head of the screw in this application, but we desparately want to avoid the stripping that occurs with Phillips head screws and the resultant dangerous ice shards that fly about. Thanks for sharing the supremacy of Canadian screws with your audience and the world.
If you're not using maple syrup (#3 dark of course) as caulking you're building it wrong anyway.
Does that work in July? There’s plenty of ice but the screws don’t freeze quite as solid.
@@dsigetich Yup, that's an issue in the summer! 🤣
@@CADRollHunter Trick from mechanical assembly (bearings and stuff), I summer use a freezer to pre cool them(liquid nitrogen might overdo it), in winter a deep fryer to pre heat them. Maybe cover in batter first, deep-fried ice cubes are a treat!
As an Australian I find the image of an ICE screw too bizarre to comprehend so I'm GUESSING this is one of those Canadian jokes they play on visitors. . . . .
Now I know more about screws than I ever wanted to know but I feel enlightened none the less. ☺
Great video. Very informative. Your humor throughout was much appreciated and very witty.
I am an Engineer, so I was curious about the different screw heads and materials.
I just disassembled and reassembled a large outdoor structure that stood for over 20 years in Wisconsin outdoor weather. Since I was curious about different screws and drives available I decided to use a mix of hardware.
-Hexhead wood lag bolts
-Carriage bolts
-#2 Phillips head
-#2 Square drive (Robertson)
-T25 Torx drive
-Unidrive (Phillips + Robertson)
I also used multiple screw and bolt material.
-Stainless Steel
-zinc plated steel
-galvanized steel
-ceramic coated steel (Deckmate)
-zinc layer
-chemical adhesion layer
-epoxy coating layer
-durable protective finish
As expected the stainless Square Robertson drive could be removed and reused after 20 years in pressure treated wood and only a few stripped out. Most of the damage was caused while inserting them. I believe that I was able to remove all of them. About 30% stripped while trying to reuse them.
The Galvanized and Zinc plated steel dissolved away and could NOT be removed. The zinc plated failed completely while the galvanized had less material loss, but enough to cause failure when trying to Remove.
The real surprise was the Deckmate ceramic coated screws with the Unidrive. Using the Robertson or the Unidrive allowed them to come out with no stripping or camming out. The ceramic coating even allowed the Phillips drive to remove them with occasional canning out but NO stripping out. Even the Stainless Torx and Robertson had occasional stripping of the screw head. They were all removed easily and all worked when reused.
I think the steel becomes work hardened and can be heat treated. Then the ceramic coating with the zinc underneath helps with the surface hardness, grip, and corrosion resistance.
Torx creates weaker points in the screw that can strip out, because of thin metal “teeth”. But the bit usually lasts. A few stripped out when being inserted even on the first use.
Robertson’s square drive creates immense forces on the screw head because the square shape doesn’t have a surface that is perpendicular to the torque of the driver.
Phillips cams out and encourages stripping due to loss of engagement with the bit.
Unidrive (Phillips + Robertson) created a bit that engages well with the square feature. The side forces created friction that prevented camming out and the Phillips flanges created a surface perpendicular to the torque to prevent stripping. With less teeth than the Torx, it was less likely to break off the small teeth created in the head.
after a 35 year furniture making career, two things stood out as best value...the square drive screw and the blessed millimetre.
Never heard of Robertson. Thank god we dumped imperial measurement 55 years ago (NZ)
For that reason alone, I like my European car. No fumbling under a car figuring out fractions of an inch
@@140288albert so you would rather fumble around with millimeters, ok then,,,
@@140288albert metric sucks balls. Imperial all the way 😅
Roberston drive is tapered, not a true square, that is what allows it to self align and to stick to the drive-bit without magnets.
There is no inherent benifit to the metric system. The imperial system has measurements that are more intuitive, such as a foot being roughly the length of an average mans foot. I've never in all my life heard a metric user ever utter what should be the most common measuremet. A decimeter.
Measurements are somewhat arbitrary, which is why I'd rather use a more intuitive system. If you cant do fractions you probaby have no buisness building anything anyway.
Glad to see the Posidriv gang in the comments - once you've tried 'em you'll never use Phillips again 👍
Pz is only good with a very high quality bit or screwdriver. Torx is much better because you can use the cheap stuff in most cases.
Not going to argue with that - I've stripped plenty in my time with inattention. My car uses Torx everywhere so I've had to buy a load of new screwdrivers (always a good day when you get to buy new tools 😀)
True. Although any fastener experience is improved through using quality tools and fasteners. I've rounded off Tx heads before, usually some user error involved where I've not cleaned out the broach before undoing the fastener.
One of the good things about Pz (and indeed Ph) is that for typical DIY purposes you can do about 90% of your work with a #2, and the other 10% with a #1 and #3. So you can have a good stock of #2 and a few #1 and #3. I've actually got some #4 but never had anything that uses them.
Whereas Tx, you need a good spread of sizes... They're more suited to engineered items, such as cars, where an engineer has determined the clamping force required and hence the fastener size and torque required. Whereas with wood we just shrug and say "yeah looks about the right size".
PZ is just Philips with extra steps.
Garbage material still means you'll murder the profile.
Square is great because neither the tool nor the material matters much.
@@Volvith Once thing I learned the hard way - never cheap out on fasteners or tools. I've not really seen Robertson's here in the UK - though apparently they are widely available.
I don't care about the content of the video, but your wonderfully organized shop kept me watching.
all for show👌
Here is a tip. If you take a Robertson screw, put it on the head of the driver, tap the point with a pair of pliers you can actually hold the driver up by the tip of the screw and swing it around. The head won’t come off the driver. As a Canadian electrician, I love my Robertsons.
Proud Canadian here, I still have some of my father's Robertson drivers from the 1950's complete with wooden handles. They are still as true as the day they were made. i challenge anyone to find a Phillips driver that has not stripped and become dull after 70 years!
Got plenty of Phillips that have never been stripped or dull. Mainly I only use them for hose clamps on certain vehicles.
The old Philips are equally good. The post-60's Philips are generally poor, as you say. The modern Robertson fares better when being made overseas with low grade steels and poor quality control.
I have some Phillips that have stripped in only 5 years, and I'm not a carpenter or anyone who would use them super often.
Stumpy Nubs is one of the best, love your videos man
Short version of the story: A friend of mine is a (Canadian) engineer. His company built and crated a piece of equipment that they then shipped to Holland. The Dutch company was apparently perplexed and frustrated when they took delivery. The Canadian company had to DHL a Robertson screwdriver to Holland so they could open the crate. 🤣
While square screwheads are rare in Europe, it is not difficult to buy a square bit.
Weird, because I can easily find square drive in other European countries, like Portugal and Germany. It would have taken minutes to go out and get a Wera or Wiha square drive which I'm sure are readily available in the Netherlands.
I'm an European who never has seen a Robertson screw. Though I have a bits set including square bits. Until now never understood what they are for.
@@Mike40M Ditto. I've come across triangular heads, argh.
The Dutch could have taken a regular screw driver.Cut the end off. Went to a grinder and ground it square
I assume this is going to get covered later, but at 0:24 I can already answer "neither". Torx is the right answer. It's just a matter of time.
My favorite feature of the square drive is how if the driver is even off-axis by a tiny amount it will usually cam out and ruin the head almost instantly.
The US seemed to flirt with square drive about 15-20 years ago. While they're still available, Torx seemed to rapidly replace it in the consumer's mind.
lol I love all the little jokes in here maple syrup, butter, etc. too many to capture. great video very entertaining but very informative as well
Yes! I was laughing quite a bit through this video! He was in fine form! Healthy dose of sarcasm too.
So many, chefs kiss! Informative history, with little nuggets of humor that only is limited to the amount that you pay attention. Keep this type of content flowing, love it.
When I worked at Hatteras Yachts in New Bern, NC, we only used the square hole screws. The screwdriver was called a 4-way screwdriver, because it had the bits for four different sizes of screws that were used on the yachts. I still have a few loose ones in the bottom of my old toolbox from the 80s.
Fun fact - when you order a Leatherman accessory bit pack for the Wave, Leatherman add a few Robertson bits ... for Canadian customers.
I still prefer Robertson for 99% of things - but 99% of things don't use Robertson.
When doing electrical work nothing beats Robertson.
Drywall works okay with Phillips, never enough torque to "torque out" or strip. And a deft hand with a drill and Phillips head (or correctly torque set impact) will set the screw head about a paper thickness or 2 below the surface. Perfect.
I like Torx too but #2 Robertson's do most of what I need.
Cheap #1 Robertson screws will strip easily.
I even have a #0 Robertson screwdriver - have never used it.
When I built my shed I used Robertson screws most everywhere instead of nails. But the sheathing got some extra nails for shear strength.
You'll use #0 Robertson a lot if you're using #4 wood or machine screws in Canada. :) Electrical is Robertson all day all the time - only an idiot would use a Philips driver - that includes in the US - for screws that aren't exclusively Philips.
Drywall screws are also very hard steel which helps prevent strip out. It's those soft tiny screws and cheap wood screws that always strip out.
@@ctrlaltdebug Indeed - (but) for drywall the torque required is too low for cam out, never mind stripping the head. Drywall screws are also nice and sharply pointed with hard/sharp edges on the threads - they cut into the wood really efficiently (low torque).
(Oddly enough I have one of these screws on my desk as I write this...).
As an American, I've been buying Kreg branded screws (they're Robertson screws) for woodworking for years. Had no idea this was the go-to design in Canada. If the Kreg screws weren't 4-5x the cost of Phillips, I'd use them almost exclusively.
Worth knowing, firearms typically use slotted/flathead screws, but they are not the same as hardware store slotted screws and require (if you want to avoid destroying them) specialty drivers. The difference: standard slotted screws and screwdrivers are tapered. Gunsmith screwdrivers have a hollow grind so they fit precisely in the slot and evenly displace the torque.
"Just like the Egyptians would have done if they had screwdrivers." My favorite line in any recent YT video.
🎶 Torque Like an Egyptian🎶
It was delivered with such authority. With alien tech there was of course no need.
@@Dowlphin stop watching little girls cartoons man. Now I know why people need pushed around.
As a Aircraft engine mechanic, to be clear we don't use torx at work. But I know the more contact points the better. I exclusively use torx at home and in projects that allow it.
Edit: I found a couple of other departments that do in fact use torx also on engines.
F-22 uses torx or improved profile or something. I have the fasteners and the NSN is for an F-22.
For Boeing we use them pretty commonly in the wings
@@GeldUndKokaine-kc1hp I though Boeing just used whatever they found on the floor...
Torx recess fasteners have been used in the UK in aerospace for a few decades now.
@@andrewdking that’s cool, I have seen them before on other titanium aircraft fasteners too, but it’s somewhat unusual from my limited perspective.
European here. I haven't used a Phillips screw in many decades. Nearly everything here is Pozidriv (often incorrectly spelled "Pozidrive") or Superdrive with no cam-out issues, unless you're using the wrong screwdriver, obviously.
If you never have cam-out issues with pozidriv you must be kind of magician ;-)
After I first tried torx, I never wanted anything else.
The only issue is that people always seem to think pozi and Phillips are interchangeable, and don't see any problem using the wrong size. THAT is what causes most stripping and camming on pz imo.
@@Knowarxana This is just what you think. I well recognize the difference between PZ and PH and I always use the exact matching size of bit but I still have issues. The biggest problems are screws smaller than 4mm in diameter, panhead screws and unscrewing. Who says that he never has camming issues in these cases is either amazingly skilled or just liar.
With torx, you don't even need to push on scredriver. As I said - I tried it once and never wanted anything else.
And with ball-torx screwdriver, you can even screw at an angle of about 20-30°. Try that with PZ.
Pozi is one of the worst human factor error inducing inventions in recent years. I'm happy Torx is ending the cursing and sweating when servicing parts which were last seen by a "oh, it's just a cross shaped screw head, I'll use my cross shaped screwdriver" person. Especially below M4 sizes it's almost impossible to see the lines and with a good amount of Loctite the damage is guaranteed.
@@m.a.6478 personally I'm a fan of JIS, but I can't count the number of stripped heads I've had to deal with on older Japanese motorcycles, where people have used Phillips, not realising the difference.
JIS has a really satisfying positive lock. If it hasn't been wrecked by a Phillips, I've got out stuck screws that haven't shifted for 50 years.
I shudder whenever I hear someone refer to a "cross head screw"
The manufactured home industry was rife with "robbies" back in the 60s. In 2008 I went to work for a modular building company in Mentone California. One of their products had sheet steel for interior walls, all held in place with Robertsons screws. They came on a plastic coil fed into an auto-loading power driver and could drive at least 12 screws a minute and more with practice. I still have shoulder problems after driving thousands of those.
Not mentioned in the story is Frearson drive screws manufactured by the Reed & Prince Manufacturing Company of Worcester, Mass. The favorite of boat builders, it is a non-cam-out design. One advantage of this type is that the largest driver will fit the smallest screw and vice versa.
Industrial designer from Europe here, we use exclusively Allen and hex cap, they support a buttload of torque, almost never strip (apart from very bad quality or extremely rusted ones, but even then it's rare) and while they require the driver to be straight on, there are drivers that end in a ball shape, allowing for a decent amount of misalignment at the cost of torque.
It's a bit weird to me that despite being extremely wide spread in the metal working industry (at least in Europe), it's almost never used for wood working.
Canadian tool maker, we use them all the time. My only issue is the US still using imperial fractions. We have to have 2 sets of tools for metric and SAE. Metric is so much better overall and I say that as someone who started on standard. Want to know tap drill size-subtract the pitch from OD of tap. 10X1.5 tap is 8.5 drill. 3/8-16 tap...Ok first i need to do long math to find its measurement in inches 0.375 now I have to use 1 over 16 for the pitch=.0625?? Now subtract .0625 from 0.375 to get a new decimal number and use a chart to find the nearest drill. I mean you get to know the standards quick, but what a waste of time. Love using a ballend to get at those bad angles or cut an allen to get into a tight spot.
The robertson is still better than those for fitting like a collet in a bridgeport(milling machine) taper fit goodness. The square drive is not a robertson, hence the frustration with them. Though still better than junkie philips.
I've don't think I've ever seen a _self tapping_ hex head screw. In terms of what might be called "bolts", they're pretty much the default choice, but anything self tapping is either cheese head (slotted), philips, pozidriv or torx.
@@Croz89 They definitely exist, tho they most often use a different design than the classical cone-ish shape, instead having a drill-bit shaped section at the front followed by (almost) normal threads.
a bolt is when a screw and a nut are put together, it's very commonly misused.
Now that I think a bit more about it, maybe it's not as often used because wood is so soft you can't really slap a bunch of extra torque into the screw, otherwise the wood just strips, so you might as well play it safe and use a less torque resistant screw.
@@thorinbane ho yeah true I didn't think about that, milling machines (and lathes as well), have square sockets specifically for the chuck, some parts of the tool changing system (for manual lathes at least) and almost nowhere else !
I was wondering whether or not a square socket could transmit more torque (the angle of "attack" being 90° rather than 60° for an hex) , what's your opinion on that since you used both ?
How small do you go in driver bits and screw sizes? I generally prefer hex socket for anything technical but in my experience especially screws made for 3mm keys and smaller are very easy to strip even with good quality hand tools and if the screws are stainless steel the task becomes even more delicate.
The Robertson kicks ass. I bought some to put some furniture together and I loved them. They are super secure and give a lot of confidence.
You forgot about the JIS, often improperly called 'The Japanese Philips'. They don't cam out.
Also, when I was an apprentice mechanic, the only time I encountered Torx was on European cars. I worked at a dealership that represented three European marques, along with one Japanese and a Korean. The europeans were Renault, Peugeot, and Fiat. The first time I encountered them was holding down the seats of a Peugeot 405 Mi16x4. Yet weirdly I was one of the only ones that ever bought the Torx drivers, in the form of a 3/8" set. I enjoyed a few 'free' lunches renting them out to the tradesmen.
Most cars use torx screws to attach the rear view mirror to the windshield. As an autoglass tech I see it quite a bit
JIS are fkn great if you're using a JIS driver. Sadly I've seen so many JIS screws torn to hell by people using Phillips drivers. I've had to cut out JIS screws bc of this.
@@drtaverner Yes. Animals. They walk among us.
yes if you're going to bleed the brakes on a Japanese motorbike definitely invest in a JIS driver
@@stahlbergpatreon6062 Or open any laptop.
Hi from England,where we have not only philips but pozi drive as well. you can hardly tell the difference but get it wrong and you strip out pronto. I was so happy when I lived in Canada and found Robertsons , they are the, best no question in my mind.
Torx heads are love, Torx heads are life.
Torx is ok, but for bigger bolts (like intake manifold bolts) I like high grade allen head bolts (same as robertson basically but a hex shape).
@@wesdoobner7521 my problem with Allen heads comes down to the miniscule differences in dimensions between Metric and Imperial Allen heads. When some prior idiot uses the wrong size bit/key/socket, you can look forward to an hours long exercise in Frustration as a result.
@@Velshard Don't know about where you're from, but you can get allen key sets that are imperial and metric.
Has all the common sizes, and its only 31 pieces total. /s
Seriously I never understood /why/ there are two size sets. I'm Australian, so we use both for whatever reason, but having metric sizes for the sake of simpler size names in metric makes no sense.
@@wesdoobner7521Yeah Torx strip out too just not as bad as Phillips.
@@Velshardyes if the fit is not absolutely perfect, don't even try it or that head will strip in no time at all. at larger sizes this is of course less of a problem.
Torx is my favorite screw head. Nearly impossible to strip out. I used #8 Robertson head stainless finishing screws and had trouble with the heads stripping out, not so with the Torx screws I used later.
I am Canadian and a woodworker. I have used Robertson screws all my life and have 100yr old furniture with original Robertsons still holding them together. Unlike Phillips screws, you can put a Robertson screw on the tip of you driver and wave the damn thing all over the place making it easy to feed into a pilot hole. Most of us Canadians hate Phillips screws along with slot.
I'm a convert to Robertsons, but I'm not Canadian. Do I need to move north and start drinking Carling Black Label? 😃
The other advantage of the Robertson is that it doesn't need firm pressure to drive it in or to remove it.
As a Canadian, I loved your presentation and as a woodworker and hobbiest, am never without my Robertson's.
A few years ago I built a small crate at work to ship some samples to England. I put it together with #2 Robertsons because that’s all we use at work. I included a #2 Robbie driver bit on the outside of the crate so they could open it but I was later informed that they did indeed have one of their own.
That doesn't really surprise me that the UK had Robertsons. Many right hand drive Model A Fords were made and exported from Canada to the rest of the British Empire due to tax advantages (as opposed to shipping from Detroit). The Canadian made ones had Robertsons, so it is likely that they spread throughout the Empire that way.
@@va3ngc Brit here. I have a couple of sets of screwdriver bits that contain Robertson bits, but I've *never* seen a Robertson screw to test them on.
Torx are quite common over here, and we also have Pozidriv, which are similar to Philips, but with parallel sides to the "crucifix," which avoids the infuriating cam-out problem. They also fit Philips screws better than Philips bits...
As a Canadian that was an amusing video . as a millwright and woodworker Ive used every fastener imaginable and the robby is my go tooo fastener .
Same, tool maker/ machine tool builder. Robbie at home and hex at work.
I can guarantee that Torx screws can cam out. I have done it to hundreds of them. As a professional boat builder and maintenance tech I will ALWAYS use a Robertson square head screw. We call them square heads though. I really like that the screw will (most of the time) stay on the screwdriver before you start driving it. On boats in particularly you have to put screws inside crevices, holes, and around corners and blind spots. Even in my home shop I will always use square drive heads. I live in a major boating center port and all hardware stores carry square head screws in brass, stainless, plain steel, washer heads etc. I have hand drivers and bits for driver guns. I have every size from 00 to 3. I can’t recall ever needing ,or seeing a #4 head. Usually go to bolts then or other ways to fasten things together. Even though I have stripped a lot of Torx screws there are actually variations than appear to be a certain size but are actually a “special” proprietary head, especially for fences, decks, etc. Grrr! The box will always come with one or two of these bits but later you have to use trial and error to get the right match.
Hex bolts work well to except you have American and metric sizes just like bolts. Grr!!!
About 20 years ago a friend of mine who had a contract with a company located at Platsburg (25 kms from the border) sent wood boxes containing home made dies. He made the "error" to fasten those with Robertson screws. The company returned back the 15 boxes with the mention "can't open the cases". Furtermore, they charged shipping to my friend.
Stubborn people!
We had a great laugh to see the boxes coming back., but my friend canceled the order as he was so angry.
Why didn't they just ask your buddy to ship them Robertson drivers instead of all that rigmarole?!?
@@trollking99
We never understood why they didn't called in or mailed a request for a solution. They simply shipped the boxes back without warning. I'm sure there was some store at Platsburg where they could have find Robertson screwdrivers.
@@irolaan292 Perhaps they wanted to prove some useless point. And why not just pry open the boxes? Anyway, your buddy made the right call to cancel their order LOL
@@trollking99 Because they are pompous asses. Or just plain stupid.
All you need to do is insert a flathead at an angle if you don't have a robertson lmao, even a posidrive jammed in can work. Idk if i'd trust any product from anywhere that couldn't figure out how to remove a screw without the proper bit lol
I was 45 years old, doing a deck job at my house, when I finally learned how terrible Phillips screws were. Discarded them all, replaced everything with torx and the job went a lot faster and smoother. I use Robertson too, both are great solutions.
love both torx and robertson, not sure which is better because both are so good
Telling his screw driver he was sorry and took a shot of maple syrup. I HAVENT LAUGHED THAT HARD IN A LONG TIME. THANK YOU!!!
I also like “ he injured his best nosepicker”
Yeah, but I laughed even harder when he said a Canadian screwdriver was a canuckleheaded idea.
@@robw9435 That one too. He was on fire in this one.
Not just sorry, but soory.