Here's a quick personal anecdote from my LGS: A kid walks in and says he's interested in trying Yugioh. A regular takes note and recommends the Albaz Structure Deck, saying that three copies gives you a pretty solid deck, which is true. But the kid is clearly hesitant. So I chime in and tell the kid to just get a single copy and see how he likes it. Then he can come back for more later if he so chooses. And that's exactly what he ends up doing. Did he actually end up coming back? I don't know. But the option of a $10 Starter Deck allowed him to give the game a try in the first place. It's very common in the Yugioh community at large to propagate the "3 Starter Decks plan" to beginners. Which isn't necessarily wrong. But it once again puts the entry at a $30 price tag, which people with a more casual interest may not be comfortable with. So something that I have recently adopted is a "2 Starter Deck plan" for new players. This allows you to still have customization options that allow you to drastically improve your deck by taking out most of the subpar cards for more copies of the good ones. But at the same time you only have to pay a more manageable $20. The third copy of a Starter Deck frequently only comes with a handful of improvements anyways, so the loss is usually not big. In this way Yugioh Starter Decks are actually kind of like all 3 of Pokemon's products in one. You buy one, you just get a simple Starter Deck, like the $10 Pokemon decks. You buy two, you get something more competent, like the $20 Pokemon decks. And if you go ahead and buy the full three copies, you get a fairly competitive experience that could hold its own at locals with just a couple of tweaks, like the $30 Pokemon decks.
Digimon is a game that you only need 2 prebuilt decks to have a fullpower deck. One example is the Double Typhoon deck which is releasing very recently
@@StellaEFZ the biggest takeaway is how weirdly good Digimon is at everything: set size/ratios, draft ability, "starter" decks, secondary market prices
I actually like the idea of a prebuilt deck containing sleeves, getting kids into the idea of protecting their cards early is good. Maybe not the '10$ or bust' starter decks, but definitely the structure decks and maybe stuff like fatpacks.
If the artwork is noce though, I wouldn't mind spending a bit extra on outer sleeves protecting it. Monocolour sleeves feels a bit boring in comparison to artworks ones.
The only type of product that could make sense to include sleeves with would be a fat pack. Since a fat pack already includes other fancy extras, 1 pack of card sleeves would fit in fine.
In Weiß Schwarz’s Project Sekai set there is a rarity called VR. The card is textless, but the ruling is that the card is considered as having the text. The ruling on that is you must have a texted copy of it separate from the deck as reference.
You mentioned Naruto TCG, which was my favorite card game ever, I would love to see you analyze what they did well vs why it eventually failed. (As much as I love base mechanics some of their trigger words got out of hand and there was never any reminder text)
10:39 Bushiroad announced that the Vanguard Overdress starter decks would be priced at five dlls each, but when they were released, every store was selling them at seven dlls, so there is something weird there. Maybe Bushiroad was selling them wholesale at four dlls each and expected LGSs to buy the starter decks as a loss leader for all the vanguard players they would get.
Several of Bushiroad's US distributors also have retail licenses. They compete DIRECTLY against their customer base for sales. The only reasons their customers can move product are that their customers customers are of the "support the LGS" mindset, or because of Bushiroad's "one and done" print runs. Eventually, unless the product was ass, there won't be any product to buy EXCEPT the non-distributor product.
Hey so as a shadowverse evolve player i'm going to chime in a bit, im not sure why the decks were listed at 30 dollars on most sites, my lgs has had them at 20 since launch. And the reason why tokens are so thick is because we have leader cards with NFC chips in them for the companion app, and they go in the token slot of packs, so the tokens have to be equally thick so you dont have an easily searchable box.
Someone said that Vanguard decks were the same, with an SRP of $5 but were being sold for $7. Their theory is that Bushiroad handed these stores an absolutely unforgivable profit margin, like if the Wholesale price was $15~17. Generally stores sell most products at double wholesale, unless it's something established like LEGO which can command fiercer margins.
i know about those and you mention them in the video but i mean if they used that treatment in the same way you described bushiroad using them, making arbitrarily useless versions of good cards in starter materials, rather than just a cool gift for already enfranchised players
I think your point about how focusing exclusively or mostly on competitive players is also extremely true in reverse. Wizards over the past few years has been essentially telling competitive players of all formats to go fuck themselves. The excessive focus on Commander (a casual format) keeps Wizards printing cards that are way too strong for competitive constructed play, and then they just don't care because LOTR made them 200 million
Tbf I don't think there are many. Yugioh is the only one that comes to my mind. Even things that copy yugioh to a degree have resources. Like elestrals and legions
Its easier for games to become horrible broken with no resource system than with one, and for an unestablished tcg one horrible format can kill it in its tracks. Yugioh is basically the only example and it took years of trial and error for the game to resemble the stable state its in now, and it still occasionally just prints cards that completely destroy what sense of balance is in the game.
Thank you for mentioning bushiroad bad practice of having Textless card in starter decks. another issue this brings up is that since the main set has versions of those cards with their full text with the sole exception of the Boss master you are affectively paying $10 for a re-print of the overtrigger, and four copies of the Boss monster. ~~ also the energy gauge which is a new mechanic in Vanguard which unfortunately works like heart stones mana, yes we are forced to use their official products and cannot make our own proxies~~
Tbf, the starter deck was supposed to be around 5-7 USD, but in the TCG, they increased the price and included sleeves to justify the price increase. X2
It would have been nice if Bushiroad Global upgraded our product by making it similar to D Trial Decks and included both versions of the cards at the increased price, even if they had to take them out of the DZB01 to make it worthwhile. X2
For the silvie deluxe set: well, you can buy the starter set alone without the extra stuff, so i think the super version of it is just for money grabbing people that want to resell it, or enthusiasts who really want a fancy version of it.
Just to note on this, the $30 Pokémon decks do not contain cards that are mostly rotating and in fact are usually good for +1year if not longer. The previous 3 released, Mew VMAX, Palkia Vstar, and Miraidon EX had at least a years life and in some cases the majority of the deck will last 2 years such as Miraidons.
Theres probably someone who explained this earlier. But the main problem the vanguard people are having with the new starter deck is the fact only 3 cards in the deck have proper effects. 2 at full playset, and 1 thats basically a token. And that makes up 16% pf the 55 card deck (including the token with the card count). Sure 16 of them are cards that have always been vanilla in starter products. But that leaves 30 cards without text on a $15 product. The older $5 dollar starter decks has at most 8 (but less in most cases) cards without text (excluding the 16 cards) Now, under normal circumstances, people might just ignore the new deck, but due to that token card i mentioned before becoming necessary for all decks both new and old. Also, i just see the leader cards from shadowverse as the flags from buddyfight. But until they find ways to incorporate leaders into the game in a more compelling way, i do think the flags from buddyfight are the better game mechanic.
It would have been nice if Bushiroad Global upgraded our product by making it similar to D Trial Decks and included both versions of the cards at the increased price, even if they had to take them out of the DZB01 to make it worthwhile.
Tbf, at the start of Buddyfight, flag cards were the same as the Leader cards. Even now, we have a leader card that technically does something (The Umamusume flags let you play with a Pure Uma deck mixing crafts). The difference is those “effects” are not written on the cards.
Allowing the opponent to see what class you're playing at a glance before the game starts is all the in-game utility it needs. Outside of that they serve as cosmetic value-adds to sets that don't require the devs to toss more power into a set to generate a chase card.
i rewatched lost worlds' excellent history of japanese tcg series and a recommended video led me to the 7 deadly sins of tcg design, it has been an awesome couple of weeks and now i'm at the bittersweet moment where i've caught up. guess i'll browse kohdok's other videos
12:05 Tbf that is a mostly ready-to-play deck; from what I gather from this video, it would be equivalent to the 20/30$ Pokemon starter decks since the deck is ready to play at locals.
15:40 to be fair, the game is Shadowverse. Shadowverse's mobile CCG does this exact thing and is basically just anime Hearthstone without the weird Hero Spell thing. So Evolve copying the Hearthstone mana system is something that base Shadowverse already does. It would be like complaining that Yugioh Rush Duel doesnt have a resource system. It doesnt have a resource system because standard Yugioh doesnt have one either.
If you look at the TCGPlayer price history for the Shadowverse starter decks they start at ridiculous pre-order prices like all products on TCGPlayer (an issue they need to fix btw, if you look at Yugioh products they pre-order price cards for hundreds) then on release day they were mass sold at $20. This happens for all products in the TCG space. LGSes are always more expensive. There's a good reason to pay that extra to support your local business. But the SVE decks were all between 20 and 22 on release and shot up when supply got wiped out before falling back to 20 every time there was a new distribution wave. You're hung up on something that is easily proven to not be the case. This is like saying boxes of Tactical Masters from Yugioh are $70 because that's what my local shop sold them for. They're not. That set type caps out at $60, and that one in particular was readily available at $50. So me complaining about and judging Tactical Masters being $70 is not a worthwhile discussion point.
I have started treating starter decks as standalone games. If a game looks interesting, me and my SO will buy two or three decks and just sticking with that. It's allowed us to try a few different games, expand and ones we like, and write off the ones we don't. The higher price of starter decks, the less likely we are to pick something up.
19:10 I disagree; I like the CSR/signed cards because they increase the supply of starter deck cards in the secondary market and decrease the cost of the exclusive cards available in the preconstructed decks.
You realize that's the product of people trying and failing to chase those cards, right? Blowing tons of money chasing something so scarce only available through a more expensive product. That sounds extremely sad.
@@Kohdok I do, but I don’t mind. Signed cards are a luxury and not needed to play. And since their inclusion makes the game cheaper overall, I want them included in every product.
@@Kohdok I don’t. That is why, contrary to public opinion, I love what Magic is doing since it separates game pieces from collectibles, which makes game pieces cheaper overall.
@@Kohdok Pokemon cards are dirt cheap because of whales cracking open multiple boxes for their chase. Embrace the whaling kohdok, it's a sustainable model that produces lots of delicious blubber for players.
as a shadowverse evolve player I agree that the starter deck prices are insane and no doubt put off a lot of newbies. sve did release entry decks that solve every problem you had with the starter decks. they were affordable, teaches the player how each respected class works without holding their hands, contain staples for the respected class and easily upgradable. the only problem is they were only released in japan... not sure if its because they didn't sell well in japan or if its bushi global being out of touch as usual.
One thing I feel missed by the one for 30 VS the three for 10, is that I can get three different Starter Decks for that 30. So my Magic can have upto three Colours, or I can get other complementary decks to boost my play
I think what could've been cool with Leaders in Shadowverse Evolve is if they were like the flags in Buddyfight, where they could be equipped with a weapon so they could fight too. That, or they could've been like Skill cards in Yu-Gi-Oh! Speed Duels.
I'm not sure how many opinions I can get from the comments about my starter decks for the game I'm trying to make. But a decision I've made and would like to stick with is that everything in a structure deck for my game at least can only be found in the structure deck, and double copies of every card in the deck. So you only need to buy two hopefully $10 decks for a full playset of the factions that come in the starter decks. And also for the starter decks to come out in multiple quantities 4 pre set, and to mainly focus around strategies that would be a little bit harder to try to make if they were just in the regular packs (A deck that requires a leader to work, a deck that wants you to have a bunch of token like cards). I also want to put a pack in each deck, but I fear it might have the Dragon Ball Super recussions I saw my local game store, where I as a cheaper player couldn't actually get multiple of the starter decks because everyone else bought it because it had the newest sets pack in it before the set released
Having a pack in the starter deck definitely can cause the issue you describe with decks getting bought up for the wrong reason. Digimon also had this happen with their first decks as well. Also, with digimons starter cards come in 2 or 4 copies so you need to buy 2 decks to get your full playset of 4, but then you end up with 8 of some cards which nobody ever needs. I'd say it would be much appreciated to have 2 of each to get a full playset.
@@geek593 I did think about that, but a problem I found is that deck factions would be kinda boring if I did, because my minimum deck size is 50 with 4 copies of a card being a playset, and so if I just gave them 4 copies of every card, it would only be 13 different cards and the deck would be 52, but if I have it as only half playsets that means it's 25 different cards and so more strategies can be shown from the same faction
I disagree with the take that sleeves arent important to fresh players. I doubt that in the last decade, players who have never played a card game before would instantly know that they need card sleeves and which brands to buy. I know personally I'd rather have sleeves than a booster pack because buying sleeves makes a $10 starter deck a $20 purchase. If I want booster packs, I'll buy them separately. It's 2024. I think people overall care more about "protecting their cards" (even worthless ones) than getting 11 worthless commons, 3 worthless uncommons, and 1 worthless rare that you probably can't even put in your starter deck due to unmixable attributes.
I agree on the Shadowverse Evolve point. I'm a fan of the CCG mobile game, but once I saw the $30 price tag, I checked out. I'm literally the target demographic and even I look at the entry level product and think it's too expensive for me (especially since I would want 1 of each starter deck). If they were $10, I would've easily bought all of them. And this is a strange relevation for me because I HATE buying $10 yugioh starter decks. It feels wrong to me for some reason. But it's undeniably better, especially for actually getting the product off the shelves.
I do think that Starter decks at least when bought in multiples should be able to get the player into a semi-competitive deck. Everyone likes to see cool cards and high powered action in TCG, that should also extend to people trying out the game for the first time.
He seems to believe games should provide bad cards and a poor new player experience as long as the price gets down to $10. If a single Yugioh structure is his baseline it's a very poor baseline.
15:50 so I’m not sure you were aware, but the reason that that mana system (and really the entire game) is like that is because there trying emulate Shadowverse the mobile card game. It ticks up automatically per turn in the digital card game, but not sure how well that translates to physical card game. I get that some of the cards they had to change to better fit a physical tcg, but if you read the effects of cards in Evovle and on the game there just completely different sometimes, like the gimmick of the mystic king card is completely removed in evovle
@@Kohdok which is odd since board games have solved it for years but instead of tapping into it, the do tedious things like double tracks in Shadowverse.
The mechanics translate very well while being adaptable to a physical game instead of digital. A focus on tokens, generated cards being in a back row instead of the hand, and clean representations of mana costs makes game states perfectly readable. The mana system sounds weird until you play it and get into the tempo of drawing and ticking up for turn in the same way you untap land in MTG. The game is built with a much better base than the digital game.
12:05 Keep in mind this deckset is just built with generic support of the clan it belongs unlike Orfist one that came the same date as this one which will get a bunch of better support and got a new boss card for it in the expansion after the release of thus Deckset's (If ya ask me the way Bushiroad has only stayed aflote has been because of their market at home and asia which are way cheaper) That is something I think you missed talking about, how a Starter deck has to also get some worth wile investments where if someone picks it up it has a motivation to get upcoming cards that power up the deck. Bandai does this pretty well with Digimon since a ton of cards in older starter decks can still be relevant today or got great retrains
i like how for shadowverse you get playsets of most of the cards in the decks, my shop hells a deck for $25 and has a deal where buy to get one free. I think the NFC card idea is cool but it brings up the price which is a big downside
Good discussion & elaborations! Thanks for the video. Loved all the How X Gets You to Buy videos, personally, would watch more but I'm not sure how nuch is left to be said on the topic, maybe just if something innovative catches your eye.
My first card game experience has a wierd addendum to the "first pack ultra rare." I got an Exodia piece in my first pack of yugioh, and it had me hooked (for better and worse) even before I really understood pull rates, I just knew it was very chance from some assumptions about the delivery (random cards). If the same experience was the point of a starter set (that even a child can gather is supposed to have a *specific list of cards*), throwing a chase random likely wouldn't have phased me. If I'm getting into it from the interest of playing the game, especially my first game, I wouldn't care if my Blue Eyes was "worse" than yours if it's the same Blue Eyes (until updated art Blue Eyes). But if this were an explicit point in its sale and marketing, it would only be disappointing because now there's this unnecessary coupled value judgement.
Reading comments from both vids just reminds me to remain skeptical when you hear marketing opinions from people who regularly spend $100 on speculatory cardboard.
Hey Kohdok. Why not review cards for collecting, like the advent cards of kamen rider ryuki, the rouze cards of kamen rider blade, the cards for kamen rider decade, the cards from goseiger, maybe some chemy cards from kamen rider gotchard. This could be a fun series and help go into how each rider was made, like how kamen rider blade is based off spades so his weapon was a sword. Also fair warning, if you do this idea, you may end up going down a rabbit hole deeper than a black hole. But, if you want a head start, the gotchard cards are the most recent and available cards
I think the reason why Shadowverse Evolve decks were so expensive is because the Leader Cards have NFC (Near-Field-Communication, not NFT) chips inside them? I think it's for unlocking a soundboard on the related App? Kinda cool but also kinda pointless. Especially since they don't do anything in game which is baffling.
Having cosmetics is important. It's a part of Shadowverse as a digital game and translates really well to a TCG market where sets need value adds to make box prices worthwhile. Playables move in and out of formats as power shoots up, cosmetics of characters you like can stay with you forever. It also dodges the Yugioh problem where an eternal format necessitates power creep to make sets even begin to provide value. Cosmetics like alt arts and rare leaders are a release valve for some of that pressure that always exists between game design and set design.
@@geek593 The TCG market had already had a cosmetics equivalent for years though. As you kinda said through holographics and alt arts. Leaders don't really fix any issues other games had since all do anything for the game besides. They are basically just glorified tokens. Leaders at best seem to act like Flags cards from Buddyfight. Doesn't really justify the price hiking caused by a kinda fun, but pointless gimmick.
@@ShadowEclipex You say that like SVE doesn't already have specialty treatments for its cards. There are alt arts, textured foils, and shatterfoils already. Leaders are an extra cosmetic you always get to see and will always be relevant without needing to be tied to playability of specific cards. Rose Queen had a special ultimate rare in set 1 that people loved. The problem is that Rose Queen's viability dropped after a few sets so people can't find much of a reason to play her anymore so that special card is mainly riding binder right now. If you pulled a special leader you really like you can always use it and a good set of leaders in a set will always add value to it. NFC is also not as expensive as you think and likely isn't adding enough of a premium to matter. The SVE starter decks are $20 because they're full value starter decks instead of needing two or three boxes unlike games like Yugioh. Yugioh SDs are only $12 because they fully expect you to actually pay $36 to get anywhere close to a good experience with them. Kohdok is trying to spin every but of information on the game as negative because he doesn't like Bushiroad. If it were just a Bushiroad product it would probably be worse but it's designed by Cygames. It's not an extension of BR's Vanguard line.
@@geek593 Kohdok isn't the only one trying to spin things here. I never said anything about SVE not having special treatments for it's cards, I was just saying there is already a way CCGs/TCGs have been handling they concept of special "cosmetics" for decades now. And it's always natural for a card to fall out of favor in a TCG, the only reason leaders don't is because they aren't needed for gameplay. You could use a standard poker card or an Uno card as your leader and it wouldn't change much. And yes, NFC might not cost much on it's own, but you need to also consider the costs of specialty printing the thicker cards, the programming costs for the NFC chip and the companion app, and the licencing fees for any special crossover leaders. SVE starter decks might be $20 now, but Kohdok showed plenty of proof that they used to be $30. And Cygames may be the designs, but Bushiroad is still the publisher, and some of there business practices should be questioned.
@@ShadowEclipex You're not understanding my point. There's no reason not to add extra cosmetics to the usual TCG setup when applicable, especially when porting over a digital game into physical cards. If SVE didn't have leaders people would wonder why they decided to cut one of the core cosmetic features out of Shadowverse. I say this genuinely. No one actually gives a shit that they're forced to play with a leader in tournament play. The basic ones cost pennies since they're from starter decks that have real gameplay value. No one has ever bought a $20 Dragoncraft starter just for the Rowen leader and dumped the rest of the box when half of your staples are in there. There are lots of basic leaders on the secondhand market because people upgrade out of them for specialty leaders if they want to swap cosmetics. People are happy leaders only provide a cosmetic benefit instead of gameplay because that would end up requiring people to play with leaders they might not resonate with and it would become just another card instead of a free choice cosmetic. As for costs, it clearly hasn't affected MSRP much. Thick cardstock tokens are in every pack and the pack MSRP is industry standard without cutting pack value back to cut costs. If cost really was such a concern in the starter decks there are plenty of supplementary materials and packaging that would be able to be cut but weren't. Likely because cost of production wasn't actually the reason these decks at $20 like I said but because of the configuration. Licensing is handled by Cygames and mostly done in-house with existing materials and IP. Crossovers aren't Universes Beyond levels of money pits either, they mainly pull from their own company or partnered companies under the same umbrella for cross-promotion. You and especially Kohdok are drilling into a completely benign aspect of the game and presenting it as a pure negative when there are very good reasons things work the way they do. It all strikes of bad faith.
~Looks up what the heck a "Field Center card" is~ Oh. Alright. I, uhh, I haven't played Yu-Gi-Oh in a long while and the more I see of modern play the happier I am I got out when I did. Thanks for the video.
Here me out, what if a Beginner deck includes this: $8.99 2 Decks, 2 Players, They Are Splashable. Primium Card (The front card and what the deck is based around). Comic. Rule Book. Key Terms/Words book. 2 Play Mats. Guide To Play Mat. 2 Special Boosters. 1 Coin to fit under a soda bottle. 2 Costom made Dice. Special Counters. (Not needed for play, just helps rookies out). Deck Box. Costomed Sleeves. Reusable outer box that does the thing like that Pokemon box does in your video about it's secret way of Temper Evident and way to close it. (Has Membership Offer on it). And, my creation: *Ahem* Deck Shell. *Rotating* "Taking inspiration from Pokemon's box Kohdok have showed in that video, this clear Shell encases the deck box to protect it, but also have departments to store game accessories like the dice, coin and rule books, counters, everything that's included in the box. It is clear to see in and made up of plastic, easy to seal and open with flashy cool designs, waterproof, and portable, fits inside the outer box like a soft glove. Great start for beginners to protect their cards, and for veterans, well they get something special from my game."
@@Kohdok Well, there's one in the DM: Blue Box you showed, so, I believe it would be fitting if 2 where there instead of one, 1 for each deck. So they don't fight over who gets the cards in the 1 pack, and maybe, give them more than enough to keep playing the game, but if 1 is the fitting number then I can actually rectify this, the 2 was just a concept. Yeah we buy booster packs to "boost" our decks.
@@kagemushashien8394 What you described is literally impossible for the price you're quoting. Like, the Costco Hotdog needs a towel.(And those only make sense because of the $60 Cover Charge you pay up front) But even if you could by some miracle get it down to that price, If one can get two Booster Packs alongside the deck for less than the cost of two Booster Packs, why would anyone ever buy a booster pack? That's competing with ones-self, and is the major flaw I pointed out in Ophidian 2350's decks. People looking to simply try out a game are usually not looking for all of that extra kit to tangle with. One of the reasons the Blue Box works so well is because it's CLEAN. It has exactly what someone needs to try out the game, a bit of flair to make some excitement, plus a taste of what more awaits, no excessive premium kit. A clean experience with a bit of hype and something to stash the cards in once the game is over is really all you need. As for the booster packs, I dunno, add a second rare slot or something so each player gets one.
Here's a quick personal anecdote from my LGS:
A kid walks in and says he's interested in trying Yugioh. A regular takes note and recommends the Albaz Structure Deck, saying that three copies gives you a pretty solid deck, which is true. But the kid is clearly hesitant. So I chime in and tell the kid to just get a single copy and see how he likes it. Then he can come back for more later if he so chooses. And that's exactly what he ends up doing. Did he actually end up coming back? I don't know. But the option of a $10 Starter Deck allowed him to give the game a try in the first place.
It's very common in the Yugioh community at large to propagate the "3 Starter Decks plan" to beginners. Which isn't necessarily wrong. But it once again puts the entry at a $30 price tag, which people with a more casual interest may not be comfortable with.
So something that I have recently adopted is a "2 Starter Deck plan" for new players. This allows you to still have customization options that allow you to drastically improve your deck by taking out most of the subpar cards for more copies of the good ones. But at the same time you only have to pay a more manageable $20. The third copy of a Starter Deck frequently only comes with a handful of improvements anyways, so the loss is usually not big.
In this way Yugioh Starter Decks are actually kind of like all 3 of Pokemon's products in one. You buy one, you just get a simple Starter Deck, like the $10 Pokemon decks. You buy two, you get something more competent, like the $20 Pokemon decks. And if you go ahead and buy the full three copies, you get a fairly competitive experience that could hold its own at locals with just a couple of tweaks, like the $30 Pokemon decks.
Digimon is a game that you only need 2 prebuilt decks to have a fullpower deck. One example is the Double Typhoon deck which is releasing very recently
@@StellaEFZ the biggest takeaway is how weirdly good Digimon is at everything: set size/ratios, draft ability, "starter" decks, secondary market prices
I actually like the idea of a prebuilt deck containing sleeves, getting kids into the idea of protecting their cards early is good. Maybe not the '10$ or bust' starter decks, but definitely the structure decks and maybe stuff like fatpacks.
I disagree. A booster pack instead of sleeves is immediate value for everybody.
those sleeves are always dog quality
If the artwork is noce though, I wouldn't mind spending a bit extra on outer sleeves protecting it. Monocolour sleeves feels a bit boring in comparison to artworks ones.
The only type of product that could make sense to include sleeves with would be a fat pack. Since a fat pack already includes other fancy extras, 1 pack of card sleeves would fit in fine.
@@Kohdok I would reckon OP is referring to stuff like Magic's Challenger/Event Decks
In Weiß Schwarz’s Project Sekai set there is a rarity called VR. The card is textless, but the ruling is that the card is considered as having the text.
The ruling on that is you must have a texted copy of it separate from the deck as reference.
You mentioned Naruto TCG, which was my favorite card game ever, I would love to see you analyze what they did well vs why it eventually failed. (As much as I love base mechanics some of their trigger words got out of hand and there was never any reminder text)
10:39 Bushiroad announced that the Vanguard Overdress starter decks would be priced at five dlls each, but when they were released, every store was selling them at seven dlls, so there is something weird there.
Maybe Bushiroad was selling them wholesale at four dlls each and expected LGSs to buy the starter decks as a loss leader for all the vanguard players they would get.
Several of Bushiroad's US distributors also have retail licenses. They compete DIRECTLY against their customer base for sales. The only reasons their customers can move product are that their customers customers are of the "support the LGS" mindset, or because of Bushiroad's "one and done" print runs. Eventually, unless the product was ass, there won't be any product to buy EXCEPT the non-distributor product.
Hey so as a shadowverse evolve player i'm going to chime in a bit, im not sure why the decks were listed at 30 dollars on most sites, my lgs has had them at 20 since launch. And the reason why tokens are so thick is because we have leader cards with NFC chips in them for the companion app, and they go in the token slot of packs, so the tokens have to be equally thick so you dont have an easily searchable box.
Someone said that Vanguard decks were the same, with an SRP of $5 but were being sold for $7. Their theory is that Bushiroad handed these stores an absolutely unforgivable profit margin, like if the Wholesale price was $15~17.
Generally stores sell most products at double wholesale, unless it's something established like LEGO which can command fiercer margins.
@@Kohdok bushiroad sounding like Konami lately
i have never heard of those bushiroad textless cards and that is ridiculous. if wizards did that with magic there would be *riots*
They did and there were. Even though the cards were play-legal and considered to have full effect.
i know about those and you mention them in the video but i mean if they used that treatment in the same way you described bushiroad using them, making arbitrarily useless versions of good cards in starter materials, rather than just a cool gift for already enfranchised players
I think your point about how focusing exclusively or mostly on competitive players is also extremely true in reverse. Wizards over the past few years has been essentially telling competitive players of all formats to go fuck themselves. The excessive focus on Commander (a casual format) keeps Wizards printing cards that are way too strong for competitive constructed play, and then they just don't care because LOTR made them 200 million
You do talk about resource cards but not enough about successful non resource games I would like to hear more about it
(eg. Lightseekers)
Tbf I don't think there are many. Yugioh is the only one that comes to my mind. Even things that copy yugioh to a degree have resources. Like elestrals and legions
Successful? Yugioh. End of talk
raw deal! lotr from decipher! they might not be around but I had a blast with them
Its easier for games to become horrible broken with no resource system than with one, and for an unestablished tcg one horrible format can kill it in its tracks. Yugioh is basically the only example and it took years of trial and error for the game to resemble the stable state its in now, and it still occasionally just prints cards that completely destroy what sense of balance is in the game.
Flesh and blood is fairly successful, keyforge had a good thing going for a while and lorcana is doing well right now
Thank you for mentioning bushiroad bad practice of having Textless card in starter decks.
another issue this brings up is that since the main set has versions of those cards with their full text with the sole exception of the Boss master you are affectively paying $10 for a re-print of the overtrigger, and four copies of the Boss monster. ~~ also the energy gauge which is a new mechanic in Vanguard which unfortunately works like heart stones mana, yes we are forced to use their official products and cannot make our own proxies~~
Tbf, the starter deck was supposed to be around 5-7 USD, but in the TCG, they increased the price and included sleeves to justify the price increase. X2
It would have been nice if Bushiroad Global upgraded our product by making it similar to D Trial Decks and included both versions of the cards at the increased price, even if they had to take them out of the DZB01 to make it worthwhile. X2
@@definitelynotmany4972 there's nothing to be fair about. Overdress started with 5 dollars decks that were of good value
For the silvie deluxe set: well, you can buy the starter set alone without the extra stuff, so i think the super version of it is just for money grabbing people that want to resell it, or enthusiasts who really want a fancy version of it.
Just to note on this, the $30 Pokémon decks do not contain cards that are mostly rotating and in fact are usually good for +1year if not longer. The previous 3 released, Mew VMAX, Palkia Vstar, and Miraidon EX had at least a years life and in some cases the majority of the deck will last 2 years such as Miraidons.
Theres probably someone who explained this earlier. But the main problem the vanguard people are having with the new starter deck is the fact only 3 cards in the deck have proper effects. 2 at full playset, and 1 thats basically a token. And that makes up 16% pf the 55 card deck (including the token with the card count). Sure 16 of them are cards that have always been vanilla in starter products. But that leaves 30 cards without text on a $15 product. The older $5 dollar starter decks has at most 8 (but less in most cases) cards without text (excluding the 16 cards)
Now, under normal circumstances, people might just ignore the new deck, but due to that token card i mentioned before becoming necessary for all decks both new and old.
Also, i just see the leader cards from shadowverse as the flags from buddyfight. But until they find ways to incorporate leaders into the game in a more compelling way, i do think the flags from buddyfight are the better game mechanic.
Tbf, the starter deck was supposed to be around 5-7 USD, but in the TCG, they increased the price and included sleeves to justify the price increase.
It would have been nice if Bushiroad Global upgraded our product by making it similar to D Trial Decks and included both versions of the cards at the increased price, even if they had to take them out of the DZB01 to make it worthwhile.
Tbf, at the start of Buddyfight, flag cards were the same as the Leader cards.
Even now, we have a leader card that technically does something (The Umamusume flags let you play with a Pure Uma deck mixing crafts).
The difference is those “effects” are not written on the cards.
Allowing the opponent to see what class you're playing at a glance before the game starts is all the in-game utility it needs. Outside of that they serve as cosmetic value-adds to sets that don't require the devs to toss more power into a set to generate a chase card.
i rewatched lost worlds' excellent history of japanese tcg series and a recommended video led me to the 7 deadly sins of tcg design, it has been an awesome couple of weeks and now i'm at the bittersweet moment where i've caught up. guess i'll browse kohdok's other videos
Shadowverse having complete play sets of all the new cards for $20 is perfect
Yeah, sure would. Shame they don't.
They have playsets of all the important cards in the starter decks.
12:05 Tbf that is a mostly ready-to-play deck; from what I gather from this video, it would be equivalent to the 20/30$ Pokemon starter decks since the deck is ready to play at locals.
That's not the point.
@@KohdokThen what is the point?
I think I saw you on a NY subway couple months ago, I wish I could say hi 😌
You should do a video about Jagun Fighters!
15:40 to be fair, the game is Shadowverse. Shadowverse's mobile CCG does this exact thing and is basically just anime Hearthstone without the weird Hero Spell thing. So Evolve copying the Hearthstone mana system is something that base Shadowverse already does.
It would be like complaining that Yugioh Rush Duel doesnt have a resource system. It doesnt have a resource system because standard Yugioh doesnt have one either.
6:30 @Sony This is important, you should hear this.
If you look at the TCGPlayer price history for the Shadowverse starter decks they start at ridiculous pre-order prices like all products on TCGPlayer (an issue they need to fix btw, if you look at Yugioh products they pre-order price cards for hundreds) then on release day they were mass sold at $20. This happens for all products in the TCG space. LGSes are always more expensive. There's a good reason to pay that extra to support your local business. But the SVE decks were all between 20 and 22 on release and shot up when supply got wiped out before falling back to 20 every time there was a new distribution wave. You're hung up on something that is easily proven to not be the case. This is like saying boxes of Tactical Masters from Yugioh are $70 because that's what my local shop sold them for. They're not. That set type caps out at $60, and that one in particular was readily available at $50. So me complaining about and judging Tactical Masters being $70 is not a worthwhile discussion point.
The thing you miss about the sleeves in the product: They are character sleeves for the deck.
I have started treating starter decks as standalone games. If a game looks interesting, me and my SO will buy two or three decks and just sticking with that.
It's allowed us to try a few different games, expand and ones we like, and write off the ones we don't. The higher price of starter decks, the less likely we are to pick something up.
19:10 I disagree; I like the CSR/signed cards because they increase the supply of starter deck cards in the secondary market and decrease the cost of the exclusive cards available in the preconstructed decks.
You realize that's the product of people trying and failing to chase those cards, right? Blowing tons of money chasing something so scarce only available through a more expensive product.
That sounds extremely sad.
@@Kohdok I do, but I don’t mind. Signed cards are a luxury and not needed to play. And since their inclusion makes the game cheaper overall, I want them included in every product.
@@definitelynotmany4972 I hope you're joking.
@@Kohdok I don’t. That is why, contrary to public opinion, I love what Magic is doing since it separates game pieces from collectibles, which makes game pieces cheaper overall.
@@Kohdok Pokemon cards are dirt cheap because of whales cracking open multiple boxes for their chase. Embrace the whaling kohdok, it's a sustainable model that produces lots of delicious blubber for players.
as a shadowverse evolve player I agree that the starter deck prices are insane and no doubt put off a lot of newbies. sve did release entry decks that solve every problem you had with the starter decks. they were affordable, teaches the player how each respected class works without holding their hands, contain staples for the respected class and easily upgradable. the only problem is they were only released in japan... not sure if its because they didn't sell well in japan or if its bushi global being out of touch as usual.
One thing I feel missed by the one for 30 VS the three for 10, is that I can get three different Starter Decks for that 30. So my Magic can have upto three Colours, or I can get other complementary decks to boost my play
I think what could've been cool with Leaders in Shadowverse Evolve is if they were like the flags in Buddyfight, where they could be equipped with a weapon so they could fight too. That, or they could've been like Skill cards in Yu-Gi-Oh! Speed Duels.
I'm not sure how many opinions I can get from the comments about my starter decks for the game I'm trying to make. But a decision I've made and would like to stick with is that everything in a structure deck for my game at least can only be found in the structure deck, and double copies of every card in the deck. So you only need to buy two hopefully $10 decks for a full playset of the factions that come in the starter decks. And also for the starter decks to come out in multiple quantities 4 pre set, and to mainly focus around strategies that would be a little bit harder to try to make if they were just in the regular packs (A deck that requires a leader to work, a deck that wants you to have a bunch of token like cards).
I also want to put a pack in each deck, but I fear it might have the Dragon Ball Super recussions I saw my local game store, where I as a cheaper player couldn't actually get multiple of the starter decks because everyone else bought it because it had the newest sets pack in it before the set released
Having a pack in the starter deck definitely can cause the issue you describe with decks getting bought up for the wrong reason. Digimon also had this happen with their first decks as well. Also, with digimons starter cards come in 2 or 4 copies so you need to buy 2 decks to get your full playset of 4, but then you end up with 8 of some cards which nobody ever needs. I'd say it would be much appreciated to have 2 of each to get a full playset.
Do your potential players a favor and provide full playsets of key cards instead of making them buy multiple boxes.
@@geek593 I did think about that, but a problem I found is that deck factions would be kinda boring if I did, because my minimum deck size is 50 with 4 copies of a card being a playset, and so if I just gave them 4 copies of every card, it would only be 13 different cards and the deck would be 52, but if I have it as only half playsets that means it's 25 different cards and so more strategies can be shown from the same faction
The physical version of the card game is so important compared to a virtual version when it comes to playtesting!! (Like you mentioned TTS.)
There was a fun comic in one of the old 2-player starter sets for MtG. I think it was 7the edition!
I disagree with the take that sleeves arent important to fresh players. I doubt that in the last decade, players who have never played a card game before would instantly know that they need card sleeves and which brands to buy.
I know personally I'd rather have sleeves than a booster pack because buying sleeves makes a $10 starter deck a $20 purchase. If I want booster packs, I'll buy them separately. It's 2024. I think people overall care more about "protecting their cards" (even worthless ones) than getting 11 worthless commons, 3 worthless uncommons, and 1 worthless rare that you probably can't even put in your starter deck due to unmixable attributes.
I agree on the Shadowverse Evolve point. I'm a fan of the CCG mobile game, but once I saw the $30 price tag, I checked out. I'm literally the target demographic and even I look at the entry level product and think it's too expensive for me (especially since I would want 1 of each starter deck). If they were $10, I would've easily bought all of them.
And this is a strange relevation for me because I HATE buying $10 yugioh starter decks. It feels wrong to me for some reason. But it's undeniably better, especially for actually getting the product off the shelves.
I do think that Starter decks at least when bought in multiples should be able to get the player into a semi-competitive deck. Everyone likes to see cool cards and high powered action in TCG, that should also extend to people trying out the game for the first time.
He seems to believe games should provide bad cards and a poor new player experience as long as the price gets down to $10. If a single Yugioh structure is his baseline it's a very poor baseline.
15:50 so I’m not sure you were aware, but the reason that that mana system (and really the entire game) is like that is because there trying emulate Shadowverse the mobile card game. It ticks up automatically per turn in the digital card game, but not sure how well that translates to physical card game. I get that some of the cards they had to change to better fit a physical tcg, but if you read the effects of cards in Evovle and on the game there just completely different sometimes, like the gimmick of the mystic king card is completely removed in evovle
I am aware. The system has always been clumsy when done physically.
@@Kohdokthe SVE sidekick app is done pretty well and handles it automatically thankfully.
@@Kohdok which is odd since board games have solved it for years but instead of tapping into it, the do tedious things like double tracks in Shadowverse.
The mechanics translate very well while being adaptable to a physical game instead of digital. A focus on tokens, generated cards being in a back row instead of the hand, and clean representations of mana costs makes game states perfectly readable. The mana system sounds weird until you play it and get into the tempo of drawing and ticking up for turn in the same way you untap land in MTG. The game is built with a much better base than the digital game.
12:05 Keep in mind this deckset is just built with generic support of the clan it belongs unlike Orfist one that came the same date as this one which will get a bunch of better support and got a new boss card for it in the expansion after the release of thus Deckset's (If ya ask me the way Bushiroad has only stayed aflote has been because of their market at home and asia which are way cheaper)
That is something I think you missed talking about, how a Starter deck has to also get some worth wile investments where if someone picks it up it has a motivation to get upcoming cards that power up the deck. Bandai does this pretty well with Digimon since a ton of cards in older starter decks can still be relevant today or got great retrains
i like how for shadowverse you get playsets of most of the cards in the decks, my shop hells a deck for $25 and has a deal where buy to get one free. I think the NFC card idea is cool but it brings up the price which is a big downside
Good discussion & elaborations! Thanks for the video. Loved all the How X Gets You to Buy videos, personally, would watch more but I'm not sure how nuch is left to be said on the topic, maybe just if something innovative catches your eye.
Shadowverse Evolve is the physical form of the computer game.
My first card game experience has a wierd addendum to the "first pack ultra rare." I got an Exodia piece in my first pack of yugioh, and it had me hooked (for better and worse) even before I really understood pull rates, I just knew it was very chance from some assumptions about the delivery (random cards). If the same experience was the point of a starter set (that even a child can gather is supposed to have a *specific list of cards*), throwing a chase random likely wouldn't have phased me. If I'm getting into it from the interest of playing the game, especially my first game, I wouldn't care if my Blue Eyes was "worse" than yours if it's the same Blue Eyes (until updated art Blue Eyes). But if this were an explicit point in its sale and marketing, it would only be disappointing because now there's this unnecessary coupled value judgement.
Reading comments from both vids just reminds me to remain skeptical when you hear marketing opinions from people who regularly spend $100 on speculatory cardboard.
11:16 Kohdok Becomes Seto Kaiba Moment 😱
Hi Kohdok,
I have a sealed booster box of Battlefield earth cards. Should I open it to see if I got the john travolta autographed card?
Do what you want, I'm not your dad.
Hey Kohdok. Why not review cards for collecting, like the advent cards of kamen rider ryuki, the rouze cards of kamen rider blade, the cards for kamen rider decade, the cards from goseiger, maybe some chemy cards from kamen rider gotchard. This could be a fun series and help go into how each rider was made, like how kamen rider blade is based off spades so his weapon was a sword. Also fair warning, if you do this idea, you may end up going down a rabbit hole deeper than a black hole. But, if you want a head start, the gotchard cards are the most recent and available cards
I'll leave that to Kamen Rider fans. More an Ultraman person myself.
@@Kohdok orb….there you got your cards and can still lose your brain cells the fun and safe way
@@KGKSkull Ultraman actually has a TCG coming out. Have fun playing Fruit Ninja!
@@Kohdok either way, feel free to take these ideas, like how the mayonnaise donuts took my trust for Japanese deserts
I think the reason why Shadowverse Evolve decks were so expensive is because the Leader Cards have NFC (Near-Field-Communication, not NFT) chips inside them?
I think it's for unlocking a soundboard on the related App? Kinda cool but also kinda pointless. Especially since they don't do anything in game which is baffling.
Having cosmetics is important. It's a part of Shadowverse as a digital game and translates really well to a TCG market where sets need value adds to make box prices worthwhile. Playables move in and out of formats as power shoots up, cosmetics of characters you like can stay with you forever. It also dodges the Yugioh problem where an eternal format necessitates power creep to make sets even begin to provide value. Cosmetics like alt arts and rare leaders are a release valve for some of that pressure that always exists between game design and set design.
@@geek593 The TCG market had already had a cosmetics equivalent for years though. As you kinda said through holographics and alt arts.
Leaders don't really fix any issues other games had since all do anything for the game besides. They are basically just glorified tokens.
Leaders at best seem to act like Flags cards from Buddyfight.
Doesn't really justify the price hiking caused by a kinda fun, but pointless gimmick.
@@ShadowEclipex You say that like SVE doesn't already have specialty treatments for its cards. There are alt arts, textured foils, and shatterfoils already. Leaders are an extra cosmetic you always get to see and will always be relevant without needing to be tied to playability of specific cards. Rose Queen had a special ultimate rare in set 1 that people loved. The problem is that Rose Queen's viability dropped after a few sets so people can't find much of a reason to play her anymore so that special card is mainly riding binder right now. If you pulled a special leader you really like you can always use it and a good set of leaders in a set will always add value to it.
NFC is also not as expensive as you think and likely isn't adding enough of a premium to matter. The SVE starter decks are $20 because they're full value starter decks instead of needing two or three boxes unlike games like Yugioh. Yugioh SDs are only $12 because they fully expect you to actually pay $36 to get anywhere close to a good experience with them. Kohdok is trying to spin every but of information on the game as negative because he doesn't like Bushiroad. If it were just a Bushiroad product it would probably be worse but it's designed by Cygames. It's not an extension of BR's Vanguard line.
@@geek593 Kohdok isn't the only one trying to spin things here. I never said anything about SVE not having special treatments for it's cards, I was just saying there is already a way CCGs/TCGs have been handling they concept of special "cosmetics" for decades now.
And it's always natural for a card to fall out of favor in a TCG, the only reason leaders don't is because they aren't needed for gameplay. You could use a standard poker card or an Uno card as your leader and it wouldn't change much.
And yes, NFC might not cost much on it's own, but you need to also consider the costs of specialty printing the thicker cards, the programming costs for the NFC chip and the companion app, and the licencing fees for any special crossover leaders.
SVE starter decks might be $20 now, but Kohdok showed plenty of proof that they used to be $30. And Cygames may be the designs, but Bushiroad is still the publisher, and some of there business practices should be questioned.
@@ShadowEclipex You're not understanding my point. There's no reason not to add extra cosmetics to the usual TCG setup when applicable, especially when porting over a digital game into physical cards. If SVE didn't have leaders people would wonder why they decided to cut one of the core cosmetic features out of Shadowverse.
I say this genuinely. No one actually gives a shit that they're forced to play with a leader in tournament play. The basic ones cost pennies since they're from starter decks that have real gameplay value. No one has ever bought a $20 Dragoncraft starter just for the Rowen leader and dumped the rest of the box when half of your staples are in there. There are lots of basic leaders on the secondhand market because people upgrade out of them for specialty leaders if they want to swap cosmetics. People are happy leaders only provide a cosmetic benefit instead of gameplay because that would end up requiring people to play with leaders they might not resonate with and it would become just another card instead of a free choice cosmetic. As for costs, it clearly hasn't affected MSRP much. Thick cardstock tokens are in every pack and the pack MSRP is industry standard without cutting pack value back to cut costs. If cost really was such a concern in the starter decks there are plenty of supplementary materials and packaging that would be able to be cut but weren't. Likely because cost of production wasn't actually the reason these decks at $20 like I said but because of the configuration. Licensing is handled by Cygames and mostly done in-house with existing materials and IP. Crossovers aren't Universes Beyond levels of money pits either, they mainly pull from their own company or partnered companies under the same umbrella for cross-promotion.
You and especially Kohdok are drilling into a completely benign aspect of the game and presenting it as a pure negative when there are very good reasons things work the way they do. It all strikes of bad faith.
What ur thoughts on Grand archive
if a single starter set cost $30+ it better comes with sleeves and all of that
Dude I love your content but I rarely get around to watching it because I have no idea what your titles mean.
I ACCEPT YOUR DM: BLUE BOX CHALLENGE!
CHALLENGE ACCEPTED!
Now...
*Clicks Pin*
What would make it better?
~Looks up what the heck a "Field Center card" is~ Oh. Alright. I, uhh, I haven't played Yu-Gi-Oh in a long while and the more I see of modern play the happier I am I got out when I did.
Thanks for the video.
This post is literally how I feel all of the time lol
4th viewer 👁️👄👁️
How much of a problem is piracy/"proxies" in TCGs?
30 dollars for 1 deck is ridiculousssssss🎉 2 decks for 10 dollars would be my approach
Here me out, what if a Beginner deck includes this:
$8.99
2 Decks, 2 Players, They Are Splashable.
Primium Card (The front card and what the deck is based around).
Comic.
Rule Book.
Key Terms/Words book.
2 Play Mats.
Guide To Play Mat.
2 Special Boosters.
1 Coin to fit under a soda bottle.
2 Costom made Dice.
Special Counters.
(Not needed for play, just helps rookies out).
Deck Box.
Costomed Sleeves.
Reusable outer box that does the thing like that Pokemon box does in your video about it's secret way of Temper Evident and way to close it.
(Has Membership Offer on it).
And, my creation:
*Ahem*
Deck Shell.
*Rotating*
"Taking inspiration from Pokemon's box Kohdok have showed in that video, this clear Shell encases the deck box to protect it, but also have departments to store game accessories like the dice, coin and rule books, counters, everything that's included in the box. It is clear to see in and made up of plastic, easy to seal and open with flashy cool designs, waterproof, and portable, fits inside the outer box like a soft glove. Great start for beginners to protect their cards, and for veterans, well they get something special from my game."
...Why do we buy Booster Packs again?
@@Kohdok Well, there's one in the DM: Blue Box you showed, so, I believe it would be fitting if 2 where there instead of one, 1 for each deck. So they don't fight over who gets the cards in the 1 pack, and maybe, give them more than enough to keep playing the game, but if 1 is the fitting number then I can actually rectify this, the 2 was just a concept.
Yeah we buy booster packs to "boost" our decks.
I mean, your proposal is absolutely absurd, but I'm sure you knew that already.
@@Kohdok What makes it, absurd?
I'm, curious.
Is it because the box is bloated?
Or it's because I added more boosters than needed?
@@kagemushashien8394 What you described is literally impossible for the price you're quoting. Like, the Costco Hotdog needs a towel.(And those only make sense because of the $60 Cover Charge you pay up front)
But even if you could by some miracle get it down to that price, If one can get two Booster Packs alongside the deck for less than the cost of two Booster Packs, why would anyone ever buy a booster pack? That's competing with ones-self, and is the major flaw I pointed out in Ophidian 2350's decks.
People looking to simply try out a game are usually not looking for all of that extra kit to tangle with.
One of the reasons the Blue Box works so well is because it's CLEAN. It has exactly what someone needs to try out the game, a bit of flair to make some excitement, plus a taste of what more awaits, no excessive premium kit. A clean experience with a bit of hype and something to stash the cards in once the game is over is really all you need.
As for the booster packs, I dunno, add a second rare slot or something so each player gets one.
Hello! I sent you a DM on Twitter! I didn't see a business e-mail address on your channel.