Sonic's State of Quandary
Вставка
- Опубліковано 16 лют 2018
- After Sonic Forces' average reception and despite Mania's success, it's further highlighted that Sonic The Hedgehog's been faced with an identity crisis that goes beyond a zest for changing his game play style. In this video, I discover and enlighten how Sonic's declined and caused a split in his fandom, how unpredictable his path has become since Shadow The Hedgehog, how much the development team behind his games constantly change, and how disconnected the head of the team is with consumers and fans of the general community, using Sonic Mania as one of the bases for this discussion as well. To get Sonic out of this limbo and on a firm path to success, both critically and financially, it seems a lot must be done to fix and restore what is fractured and shattered...
Sources:
-Sonic Unleashed' Sales by May 2009: www.segasammy.co.jp/english/i...
-The State of Sonic Team & it's Lost Developers: board.sonicstadium.org/topic/...
-Iizuka on Sonic 4's Physics: www.sonicretro.org/2010/11/foo...
-Iizuka on Sonic Lost World: mynintendonews.com/2013/07/02...
-Iizuka's disinterest in Sonic Adventure 3: nintendoeverything.com/sega-a...
-How Iizuka defines Sonic: conflictingviews.wordpress.co...
-Iizuka on Sonic Mania's Classic Levels: www.tssznews.com/2016/09/20/ii...
- Christian Whitehead reaffirming Sonic Mania's experience: www.tssznews.com/2016/09/22/ch...
-Sonic Mania's outcome determining Sonic's future direction: www.siliconera.com/2017/07/06/...
-Shun Nakamura Approving Automation: • DASHING LIKE A MANIAC ...
-SEGA CEO Admitting the Company Betrayed it's Fans in 2015: www.gamespot.com/articles/we-...
Music:
The Supernatural - Sonic Adventure 2
Way to the Base - Sonic Adventure 2
Down in the Base - Sonic Adventure 2
Soarin' Over the Space - Sonic Adventure 2
Keys the Ruins - Sonic Adventure 2
Rooftop Run (Night) - Sonic Unleashed
Dive into the Mellow - Sonic Adventure 2
Hydrocity Zone Act 2 - Sonic Mania
This Way Out - Sonic Adventure 2
I'm a Spy - Sonic Adventure 2
Unstable World - Sonic Adventure 2
Vs. Egg Dragoon - Sonic Unleashed
Lovely Gate 3 - Sonic Adventure 2 - Ігри
I also hate how Classic Sonic and Modern Sonic is even a thing I miss when Sonic was just sonic
Litten Fire If sonic forces would have been a perfect time for sega to do a sonic and shadow game. IF the game was just about sonic and shadow stopping eggman the game would've been better
+hedgehog the sonic if only they didnt bring back classic sonic
Litten Fire I completely agree (though sonic generations was fair enough as the whole premise of the game was that it celebrated the anniversary and took a look at the most successful parts of sonics history)
Uh classic sonic and modern sonic has been here since they brought sonic too 3D. Classic sonic is the classic 2d gameplay while modern sonic is the 3d sonic gameplay.
Racist Sonic. The point is that he was still just called Sonic regardless of 2D or 3D. Now is when they're considered two separate people
"Bottom line, it'd be insanely short sighted and a waste of great talent if they were done with Taxman's work on Sonic, let alone Classic Sonic."
That didn't age well, and I'm not even surprised
Unleashed was marketed pretty well. It was the first time a 7 year old me ever laid eyes on Sonic. I still remember the advertising 12 years later.
This was so analytical and emotional at the same time!
Right now, it's Ace Attorney suffering from quandary, same as with Sonic.
I am Natalie, it's a pleasure to meet you! I mentioned you in my 3D All Stars Video.
Man you really pour your heart into these videos and make very solid points always. Keep it up.
At the space level why does it look like the death star in the old 1979 Star Wars the empire strikes back
Oh it's the Death Egg. It was the last level in Sonic 2, but has been one of the recurring stages/locales throughout Sonic games & it was always meant as a parody of the Death Star from Star Wars.
34 minutes and 52 seconds of straight FAX, NO PRINTER 🔥🔥🔥
2:11 I can see a clear problem with that gameplays: Sonic accelerates almost instantly. Sonic never was about BEING FAST, but about BECOMING FAST instead, avoiding obstacles to gaining constantly speed, and being fast as sound was the reward of a good play, not the gameplay. They also need a smoother controllers with better sensibility at lower speeds, because they feel clunky when you're not running.
I initially had the impression that Classic Sonic was Modern Sonic's younger self especially since in Generations, Eggman himself says it. Then I got confused when Sonic Team asspulled the concept of Classic Sonic and Modern Sonic being in separate dimensions.
"What the fans want won't be an advancement of the series"
*puts classic sonic in every single game besides lost world including the mobile titles*
Lizuka is a walking contradictory
Yeah. I can never read the guy.
You're so right
Did you call him "Lizuka?"
How do I nominate someone for an Emmy?
"Use time intelligently"
*puts up generations footage*
I see what ya did there.
I am a master of not at first realized puns. Foolish mortal. (ALSO 9,892 WE GETTING CLOSER)
Izuka is a hypocrite.
He thinks that if they made a adventure style(SA3) game it will be a step back for the series....and yet he's the guy who wants old zones and classic sonic in modern and old style games.
A Guy
Whether I agree or disagree with Izuka‘s claim, The Adventure Style is an option, but they have to rely on Nostalgia if they’re going to bring it back. Remaking SA1 and SA2 is their safest bet.
They don't need to rely on nostalgia to bring it back. They can have new ideas for the storyline and gameplay and still work.
TheZeldaExperienceWithin
Here’s the problem, Sega and Sonic Team haven’t done a Sonic Adventure styled game since 06. Making an original title (SA3) would have at least a 90% chance of failing, no matter how good it turns out. Given Sonic Team’s neglect and 06’s scars permanently on said formula, not to mention the doubt, we still can’t move forward with the Adventure Style yet
Remaking SA1 and 2, if done correctly, could help give more confidence towards the fandom and developers. If there’s one thing the Boost Games have the Adventure Games don’t, is polish. I’m sure Sonic Team is capable to put that same amount of polish into an updated SA1 and 2, along with tighter controls, improved mechanics, better writing, and additions like 06’s free mode.
I’m sick of the nostalgia to, but playing it safe is their best bet.
More people than not want another Adventure game though. No matter what they are going to get detractors regardless of what they pick.
TheZeldaExperienceWithin
True, but it depends on how bad the detraction itself will be.
Some don’t want an Adventure Styled game because they don’t even trust Sonic Team anymore. At this point, you have to choose what would be less of a detractor. If they were to make another Adventure Styled game now, you bet there will be more of a risk of high backlash.
Sometimes, you have to show if you’re capable or not before doing a big task.
This video has more effort put into it than Sonic Forces. This was a great video
so true
yea
Tru thooooooo
Undoubtedly agreed.
The funny thingie is... the internet in general has similar arguments but, people explain them so poorly and usually being assholes to the fans. THIS is how you do it, so I just can say:
Hey! Videos can't be that perfect!
"We'll start with the divided fandom and how much sonic has fallen over the years"
...
Well, what's left of it, anyways.
Whats crazy is despite having consistently inconsistent Sonic games the sonic fanbase is still going so strong. Its almost like a meme at this point.
I love people like you. You don't shout and argue at Sega nor the fans but made valid points as to why the Sonic series has decline over the years. I wish the best for him honestly.
At this point, since Forces came out I've seen SO many videos analysing the current state of Sonic and 99% of them say that Sonic Team should seriously just go back to the Adventure formula and improve upon it. This makes me glad because it not only confirms that I'm not the only one that's been thinking this myself, but it shows there is an actual demand from people, and they don't demand this purely down to nostalgia but the fact that it's THE most we've ever been able to control Sonic in a 3D environment that gives us freedom of movement and has an identity...
Idk adventure is an unremarkable platforming style that feels way 2 basic as it was left. I don't think sonic problem is that fundamental. I want a whole game of original, well done boost levels. I think people would be really satisfied with that.
SuperMarioT - 3D sonic is yet to be fully invented. The visual iconography of the loop for example was included but only realised with automation. It's a 2D mechanic.
They need a 3D common set piece which serves the same function but reinvented for 3D. (Sonic Utopia game-play to start with).
I suggest a bowl-like piece of geometry in which the player can skillfully build speed and then apply it to their surroundings. This is how the 2D loops work (you know the jump to the bottom of the loop trick I see 6:44).
So yeah, Loop 2D: it costs a minimum speed to get past the obstacle but mastering it grants even more speed.
3D bowl: Player can't progress while inside but then mastering it grants more speed.
They need to stop this surface level half assing of iconic visuals without looking into what they did for the game as a mechanic.
Edit: I think I left this comment twice sorry im tired
I understand your statement on Adventure, but I never meant for it to mean that they mimic exactly what both Adventure games did. Like SuperMarioT mentioned, I only wish they approach the style in a way that Mario Sunshine (or 64 if you want to dig a little further) was essentially re-approached by Nintendo: via Mario Odyssey.
In my opinion, building upon the foundation of simple controls is key for mascot characters like Mario and Sonic. Their gameplay roots from their 2D debuts and one of them has kept this heart for the majority of their 3D titles. Sonic is still an action platformer at heart and I don't believe this should mean that his gameplay in 3D can't or shouldn't be focused around that DNA. As you've said, it's all about adapting and I agree that the loop in Sonic does not work in 3D (by the same standards).
We've seen the loop worked into 3D fan games without the use of automation, and it functions superbly. However, what started as a low skill, high reward in 2D becomes a medium skill medium reward in 3D. The risk of falling out the sides becomes apparent in the third dimension and you're essentially not given the same visual thrill as the camera simply makes it look as if Sonic is just running uphill. Your bowl idea is one thing, but I suggest something that has ALREADY been used in 2D Sonic games that still work PERFECTLY for a 3D Sonic game: the corkscrews. Unlike the loops in 3D Sonic (if the player was in control of those segments), the player could actually see ahead of them in these screws as it would both let them prepare for the obstacles ahead, and display an amazing spectacle as reward. In fact, corkscrews have already been a huge thing in 3D Sonic games, but unfortunately the automation, just like in the loops, completely takes away the input players might have had on such an encounter. I hope I didn't go too off the rails there but I certainly think Sonic has a PLATFORMING identity in 3D. I do like the Boost gameplay, but I don't think it should define his 3D outings as much as others think it should.
hmm. Camera's always gonna be a bastard. I can't think of another game that does this but we could have another camera angle appear on the screen at the same time as the following sonic one. If the level design complexity comes anywhere as great as the classics then (utopia still) we'd need a birds eye view as its own button.
TheFrostyflakeboi I do commend Mr Lange for his consideration of art style. The classic look made it easy to judge distance and shape, and Utopia addresses the depth perception problem with it's almost origami look. I know that's not an issue everyone had but me likes.
Great video/rant. This deserves more views. Hopefully it blows up soon. I like how you started calmly but transitioned into a more annoyed voice as the video went on. As a Day 1 Sonic fan since the Genesis here are the directions I see SEGA can take.
Option 1. Take a chance: Fans keep asking for Adventure 3. Give them that. If it works it works. If it doesn't it doesn't. What's the worst that can happen at this point? Doesn't hurt to try. Obviously, take the flaws the Adventures games do have and learn from them to make the 3rd game a better experience.
Option 2. Try something else. The boost mechanic has run its course. Perhaps a new style of Sonic game we haven't thought of yet is what we need.
Option 3. This will be the most unpopular of my three options. Keep Sonic 2D (for now). Let Christian and his boys continue making 2D games like Mania. We can all agree they know what they are doing and that the security of classic sonic is secure. Many purists argue Sonic can never truly work in 3D. I don't agree with that statement, but will acknowledge Sonic's transition to 3D is inconsistent (especially the past decade). Therefore, if SEGA is too scared to attempt Adventure 3 and if they cannot think of anything new to do other than the same ole boost concept then the best thing to do would be to not do anything at all. Keep doing the 2D games and rebuild Sonic's reputation with that and only consider a new 3D game when SEGA knows for sure they have something. This will obviously alienate fans of that style, but its a sacrifice I'm willing to take if it means ultimately increasing the quality of Sonic games. I see a lot of cool 3D sonic mods of Generations on youtube. Why not make a game like that similiar to Mario Maker where fans make stages you can boost through? Just trying to be creative.
I feel like Sega lacks any confidence in Sonic if I am being honest.The amount of times they shoehorn in some dumb or weird gimmick in a Sonic game is ridiculous.Like,there is a big difference between innovating and throwing darts at a wall in the Dark.Besides it is not even necessary,games like Sonic 3 and Knuckles or Sonic Mania proves this.
Funny, it's almost like they share the same problems with Nintendo pre-Switch era
Wii U, and some say the Wii
I meant their main line games in concern with those 2 consoles. Though, I agree they were good consoles
Financially Nintendo wasn't doing well with the N64 or the GameCube. The SNES sold less than the NES but it was still considered a success. The N64 and GameCube, however beloved they are were considered failures in terms of systems sold.
It got to the point that Nintendo was considering leaving the video game industry if their next system did as badly as the GameCube did. If it wasn't for the Wii exploding in popularity we might not have Nintendo games anymore.
The problem with the N64 was the lack of third party games. It had some of the greatest games ever made on it with Super Mario 64, The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask, Paper Mario, Star Fox 64, Smash 64, and Goldeneye 64, and had many fantastic Mario sports games like Mario Kart 64, Mario Party, Mario Tennis, and Mario Golf, and it managed to get two great games in the Banjo series.
However, other than that there weren't really any big must own titles on the N64. Paper Mario was the only RPG on the system other than Quest 64 and the latter wasn't that good from what I hear. If Mother 3 had come out we could have had one of the greatest 3D RPG games ever made on the system but sadly that never came to pass.
The Nintendo 64 was great for platformers and first party games in general, but without any other RPG's and the fact that its cartridge format alienated developers it failed.
The GameCube was much better in terms of variety of hit video games but it suffered from more lack of third party support and the mini disc format once again alienated other developers which caused it to fail.
More so Use Gimmick Wisely and have Confidence in your product.Time Travel and Team Mechanics are good examples of this.
The sad part about his state is... I believe it's not ending anytime soon. Why???? Both Sega of Japan and Sonic Team have become so radioactive to their mascot that I think no matter how good the next game will be, we'll be back to square one by the time the next one comes. That's what happens when your franchise is run by lolcows.
That Shadow Siren so what your saying is that sonic is essentially in a never ending cycle of mediocrity?
SniperYoshi I honestly don't want to see another sonic game for the next 2 years at the very least until the current issues get addressed and rectified because I will not accept another subpar game from sonic team the next game is all or nothing for me.
Mulik Goodwin if thats the case, i would need to wait whole 2/3 years with people talking shit about 3D Sonic just because Forces was dissapointing. I want a GOOD 3D Sonic game so everyone could just shut up and see that Sonic can work in 3D.
Agustin Leguiza I want that too but Sonic Team is just not providing I'm seriously on the verge of giving up on this franchise altogether if the next game is not good it will just tell us that sega and sonic team do not care and don't deserve anyone's money.
That Shadow Siren
All fronts of SEGA and/or related to Sonic are radioactive for their mascot at the moment. That includes SEGA of America with their shitty PR and social media pratices and the Mania team.
Even as someone who defends Sonic Forces, I gotta say this has to be one of the most constructive criticisms to the Sonic franchise I've ever heard.
I think Sega should take notes.
You should also remember that Sonic Forces is essentailly a sequel to Sonic Mania with Sonic's ending in Mania and Classic Sonic's introduction in Forces being bridged together. I say that is another example of Forces trying to get more nostalgia crammed in and in this case with some recent memories of playing Mania
16:22 - Iizuka got it backwards. Adventure isn't a step backwards, it's a step forward... and what Iizuka is doing is the ACTUAL step backwards. Green Hill Zone version 9154, Classic Sonic, more Classic Sonic, Classic joining with modern Sonic, 2D gameplay taking more and more space in every game to the point where 3D gameplay is just a very rare minigame in between the 2D levels.... how is THAT going forward? How is taking one dimension away a progress? How is taking away features a progress? How is reliving the same old same old all the time a progress? How is making the story to stagnate and constantly bring up the empty storybeats of the Classic games a progress? How is the aesthetics looking ever more bright and kinder-gardenish a progress???
Sonic's future is scary.
Sonic_171 000x
I know a thing or two about Bad Futures, but as long as Sonic Team learns their lessons, they’ll be on route for a Good one!
It's a Mii! Because i've been with this franchise for a long time and it always seem to go downhill for me more.
It's a Mii! Okay. But it is fine for me to expect a lot more mediocre to terrible crap than good with Sonic in the future.
Again, a very sour perspective.
KaitoFlameZX Which is justified. :)
Sonic Team should listen to what Miyamoto said before. "A delayed game is eventually good, but a rushed game is forever bad." Seriously, that is one of the most useful advice Miyamoto has ever given to the public. It would help SEGA a whole lot if they understood this advice
DarkSonic180 It kinda does. Look at Breath of the Wild. Instead of releasing it early, Nintendo decided to delay it over and over, so it can come out complete and polished. While I agree that the wait was frustrating, we ended up getting a fantastic Zelda game that even got GOTY award. If it was rushed, it may have not been as good as the completed version that we got
While it's true that delayed games can still end up bad(Mighty No. 9), they can help most of the time.
*DUKE NUKEM FOREVER*
There was also that quote where he said:
“People are willing to put up with mediocre gameplay for the visuals.” when referring to the success of Donkey Kong Country on the SNES. That man knew something about the market.
I wish Bethesda would follow that Philosophy as well...
That second quote sounds like Sticker Star and Color Splash.
Bloody Hell, that was 34 minutes? I was so sucked into what you were saying I didn't notice, someone needs to show this stuff to SEGA Seriously you know exactly what you're talking about my friend
Sergeantmajormario SMM he absolute does.
Yeah he does
Sergeantmajormario same
haha, get it?
rule thirtyfo-
Great video! Here's the core of the problem for me, and it plays into the problem that Sega has with keeping its talent: Sonic, as a property, has no visionary. Nobody to lead the way and to keep things on track in the long term. Zelda has Aonuma. Mario has many of Miyamoto's protégés, like Koizumi and Hayashida. Smash has Sakurai. They all have a central figure who is there to say "no" to ideas when they don't feel appropriate for their respective franchises. Iizuka is so willing to try new things that are completely out of left field in an effort to appeal to more people, but nobody is there to say "well maybe not THAT."
Sure, sometimes it feels like Mario and Zelda don't evolve fast enough. Sometimes it can feel like there are elements that are archaic and traditional. But it's better to hold too closely to your heritage than to not hold closely enough. There is value in trying to bring in new people, yes. But not at the expense of a cohesive vision for the direction of the franchise as a whole.
I honestly think time is repeating itself here. Think about it,
Early 90s, Sonic is this new, hip franchise that was capable of competing with Mario.
Late 90s, Sonic and Sega in General are struggling against Sony/Nintendo.
Early 2000s, Sonic is getting somewhat popular again due to Sega going third party thus being more accessible.
Late 2000s, Sonic 06. Need I say more. Though Unleased was a spark of something good.
Early 2010s, Colors and Generations are great games that brought most fans back.
Here we are now, and Sonic has more of an identity crisis then ever. Yes, Mania is a spectacular return to form to the classic Genesis era, but just MONTHS LATER, we got Forces, a disappointing, misguided attempt at copying what made Colors and Generations great to fans.
I honestly don't know how this series is going to survive in the 2020s, unless Christian Whitehead takes over the franchise.
Early 90s: Sonic is good and compete with Mario
Late 90s: Sonic is struggling to pass in 3D
1998 up to 2003: 3D games that gets praised for the most part
Rest of 2000s: The cost of too much ambition above that of a solid gameplay led to very epic and memorable games but that don't play as good as the ones before (except Unleashed but whatever)
2010s: Sega is scared shitless to do anything ambitious and interesting so they have to rely on their classic gimmick and make boring and unmemorable games with bad self aware comedy and memes everywhere (oh and Mania is apparently the best game ever made since Sonic 3)
Ah yes, mania. A fan game that became Canon and ironically the most polished sonic game in years.
The passion for Sonic in this video and the screenshot at 13:12 that highlighted how Sonic Team has changed over the years just earned you a sub.
I think it would be for the best if they just did classic, adventure, and boost games separately to please those people instead of shoving elements from them in one game. Forces tried this and ended up not having an identity, with classic, adventure, and boost fans all rejecting it.
You can see this with Mario. 2D fans have the NSMB games, collectathon fans have Odyssey, and people who want linear 3D games have Galaxy and 3D World. They don't shove all that stuff in one game, and that's part of the reason why the Mario franchise is of high quality. Those games had visions and were executed in a way to meet that vision.
Yeah it needs to be seperate games, you cant make 1 game cater to everyone because it might not be properly balanced.
Like in forces, i think Classic sonic is only like 20% of the game while Modern and Avatar are 40%
tbh i think a lot of Sega's probs cannot be regarded from outside the production cycle. There must be a fundamental, root problem in there somewhere i just can't see it
I like the idea but i dont think sega should strive for that right now, there not in the position too in my opinion. they should focus on just 2D and Boost and once we finally feel like theyve done it, then introduce the adventure style
but then the fans will complain about another 2d /3d games being made eventhough both games are two different games
AceRay, now that's something to consider. They need to pace themselves, have more than one type of game per year. It's hard to sustain though.
17:14 YOU FREAKING GOT IT. So classic is okay but not adventure? I miss when every Sonic Game had brand new levels
We haven't had a fully original Sonic game since Sonic Colors. And that was 2010. The Adventure style would be fine, but for some reason Izuka hates it.
Fire Izuka. Please
We haven't had a fully original Sonic game since Sonic Colors. And that was 2010. The Adventure style would be fine, but for some reason Izuka hates it.
Fire Izuka. Please
We haven't had a fully original Sonic game since Sonic Colors. And that was 2010. The Adventure style would be fine, but for some reason Izuka hates it.
Fire Izuka. Please
Izuka is the one in charge of the series and the direction it goes in. Sega just decides deadlines and stuff but the actual contents in the game are the one who is leading the project.
In defense of Lizuka, Adventure style was basically a dead end with 06, so it is insanely risky. Classic on the other hand was safe with Whitehead. It's hypocrite, but reasonable
It's Sucks where Sonic is right now. At this point he's been known to be a hit and miss series, at this point it can only get worries or better as time goes on. Also there's the Sonic Movie coming as well so yeah. This video should be shared to as many people'z or Sonic Fans as possible. #MakeSonicAwesomeAgain
PopTevin lol we totally got a 1 - 2 hit - miss last year. Where are all the developers though seriously. It's the originality I'm worried about.
True on that!
Oh boy. Can't wait to see how that turns out. (Seriously, did they not learn anything from the Adventure games when it comes to human characters?)
The Sonic series works better with realistic Humans in it because the series has always taken place on Earth and been described as being in the real world. It looks cooler too in my opinion because it breaks the mold and goes against conventions of aesthetics.
However, I think that only can work when all the characters and environments are CG. Having a real Human next to a CGI character is going to look weird no matter what.
"The series works better with realistic humans". I'm not saying there is no way for human characters to work in a world where anthropomorphic animals exist, it's just that SEGA handling of that concept has been very hit and miss. Mostly miss in the video game side of things. It got so bad that they essentially made a retcon in which Sonic and his friends all actually live in a different world parallel to that of where humans supposedly are, rather than all being from the same world.
Iizuka or anyone in sonic team NEEDS to listen to this video. I legit agree with everything you said! Someone send these videos to sonic team. I think they have time for a 35 minute video that could change their way of production. The fact that they may miss a video that could potentially mean a lot to the future of sonic makes me a little sad.
Great ideas, points, and research SuperMarioT!
To Sonic Team/SEGA of Japan/Whoever is responsible for Modern Sonic Games...Are you seriously going to hide yourselves behind that pathetic 06 excuse? What freaking children you are. Yeah, 06 flopped sure, but that was well over a DECADE ago and everyone already long moved on from that and now we're more ready for another adventure game than we ever were. Stop being such massive babies who for some reason can't forget about what happen in the past. People want you to attempt another Adventure game so pull yourself together, forget for a minute about that spooky scary 06 boogeyman and just do it. Oooh b-b-but we made Adventure style game(06) and critics, as well as gamers hated it! Yeah we sure AF hated it, but it was YOUR fault. We didn't wanted to hate it, you made us hate it. Because obviously releasing the game during holiday season to ensure highest possible profit simply had to take priority over developing a good game that actually works RIGHT!? You can't develop a Classic Game because at this point people want Taxman to handle those exclusively(Because sure as fuck you can't do it properly anymore). You can't develop another Boost to Win gameplay because people have enough of it after how mediocre Forces was. At this point Adventure Type Game is quite literally the only safe bet you have right now so grow some balls already and do it. Trust me, another Adventure inspired game will be a huge success but only if you put Heart and Soul into it.
Sonic Team hasn't put any heart & soul into a game since 2009. They made absurd changes which hurt the series like Roger Craig Smith's unfitting voice for Sonic, making Amy sound like a Disney mouse, or hiring lead writers whose only knowledge of the series came from DiC Cartoons & Memes! The Joke Direction of 2010s Sonic needs to end already, we need a Sonic Game that we can take seriously again, a return to form to the Golden Age of 3D Sonic in writing, tone, gameplay, & getting to raise chao again.
@@WaterKirby1994 Exactly. I'd love to see a 2010s Sonic game with the story and direction of the Adventure games
The fact that you’ve been able to keep me watching for 30 minutes is proof of a well-written video. Good job!
This was an amazing and very well done video. And honestly, I completely agree. A major problem Sonic Team has as of now is that I don't think they know what to do with Sonic nor how to view criticism.
I saw two reviews with the head of Sonic Team and the producer of Forces. One with the head of ST stated that he was surprise of the positive feedback of Mania's announcement, thinking that fans would think that it looks too old for 2016-2017. The other was with the producer of Forces, where he stated that he didn't want players to actually try to focus like other games, so that everyone could play and enjoy going fast. If those two statements are true (because I don't know where those articles/reviews are), then I think Sonic Team is in big trouble.
I just want a fun Sonic game. While I personally don't think the past few were *bad,* I *do* think that they have been a step backwards from previous titles. What ever happened to taking what worked and improving on it? Why pander so much on nostalgia? What happened to the people that knew what Sonic was on the team? And stop trying to please everyone. Mario isn't for everyone. Zelda isn't for everyone. Halo isn't for everyone. Why should Sonic? And like you said, this leaves Sonic in this limbo of an identity crisis. There isn't even a simple question of what is Sonic, because that answer changes for almost anyone you ask.
Once again, very well done video. I love that you didn't blame the fans nor say that Sonic is ruined. You made strong arguments with very strong points, and I thank you for that.
I felt PASSION in this video I applaud you for your efforts.
Honestly, Sega and Sonic Team need to remake the first Sonic Adventure game in this new engine so that they can take a step back to understand where the Sonic series was headed before it strayed too far from the Genesis/Mania gameplay. They need to slow things down, build a world, flesh it out, and polish it.
Sonic just needs world building, modern Sonic doesn't have any other than he's from generic Earth that most of the time has humans, but sometimes doesn't. He's from nowhere, nor are most of his friends, and they just sorta hobo around to the next set of Eggman schemes game after game. Compare that to Mario where he has structure in the Mushroom Kingdom, Mario has origins, stories, friends, enemies, power ups, surrounding locations/levels, and much, much more that all center around and follow the rules set by that universe.
Great video though man, summed up a lot of what I've been feeling for the last two decades with the Sonic series. It makes you feel bad for the developers at Sonic Team who you can clearly see have talent and are creative people, but they are so poorly mismanaged and directed to the point of embarrassment.
but if they go back and try anything with adventure one wouldnt it be some of the issues spoken about like using nostalgia and possibly ruining a game?
loosetehbest Not really, shamelessly dangling classic Sonic or Adventure levels/material in front of us for the sake of sales isn't the same as rebooting.
At the moment all modern Sonic games take place in their own self contained, unestablished, unoriginally generic worlds and locations. There is no Canon, and they don't build off each other's like the classics did. We might as well be following a brand new Sonic every game.
Like was said in the video, they need to settle on a style of gameplay and build off it, but they also need to build a universe that Sonic can come back to and fans can grow familiar with instead of No Where City, that was probably inspired by the world designers randomized PC wallpaper of the day, that we see every game. He needs his own Mushroom Kingdom, a place where fans can become attached to so that when Eggman attacks they're not just seeing a random City that Sonic happens to be in being destroyed, somewhere the stakes are much higher than Sonic's random vacation spot of whatever game he's in at the moment.
Well, Sonic's supposed to live in the real world and that was the appeal of the Adventure style of games so I'd like to see more of that.
TheZeldaExperienceWithin No reason he still can't, just make it less random and meaningless.
Whitescarver but sonic doesn't tend to stay in one area too long does he? As far as I remember he was always travelling
This mad-man stayed up until 3 A.M. last night finishing this! *BE. GRATEFUL.*
Stardust Speedway Gaming is Right!
Yeah he is
And it shows.
Sonic Team needs to see this video.
the biggest problem with sonic is the speed
speed is fun, but if you want constant speed, play a racing game
sonic is a PLATAFORM game with speed reward based on your effort to master the levels.
(basically any plataform ever, but more extreme)
Sonic with a sword and his Werehog form were great ideas, they just were held back by the level design and not taking advantage of his abilities respectively.
Someone at SEGA should sit Izuka down in a chair and slap nonsense into him
Wow. This WHOLE Video actually summed up my thoughts on sonic's future. You have my thoughts cleared out for and improved. I honestly agree with this video as a whole. and I just wish sega or someone in sonic team, can actually just make sonic what he was from the 90's... Just Sonic. Very well explained video.
My friend, I just want to say thank you. I've watched a fair amount of videos like these since Forces was released, and among all of them, you're in the lead. This video delved deeper in to more detail than I could possibly think of and that's saying a lot considering my first impression of the trailer for forces seemed like they wanted to appease to each part if the fanbase. Someone needs to post this on all of Sega's social media sites until they finally decide to get it right.
However, I don't want to be that guy, but, to be brutally honest, I think it may already be too late. At least for this veteran. I was in the minority that forgave Sega for '06, mostly because I didn't know that Yuji Naka and the original team bailed out at the time until 2014. But Lost World and Boom were clear signs that they just don't care anymore. And now, with the nonchalant slap to the face and flip of the bird that is Forces not to mention the way things went down at SXSW, it seems like they're only focused on banking on Classic at the moment and have another racing game in the works.
I'd say for solid storytelling, hit up the comics series, but Sega managed to drop the ball on that as well along with Ken Penders' lawsuit over his ideas being "stolen" for Sonic Chronicles: Dark Brotherhood and Archie Comics having to remove all his characters and concepts, as well as reboot the book, go on a 7 month hiatus and finally canceling the books before reaching its 300 issue.
Sure, there's the IDW series coming out next month, but with the strict mandates that Sega slammed on Archie in the aftermath of Penders' lawsuit will most likely be enforced in both the new comic and future games. Making the storytelling a dull experience.
And with Yuji Naka moving to Square Enix, there's no way the Chao Gardens, let alone the Adventure style games will ever return at this point.
Also, it's really stupid of them to hire someone that catered to the 2D fans and still tried to throw him under the bus, but won't hire the fans, specifically the guy who made Green Hill Paradise, and is coming very close to proving that sonic cam work in a 3D environment.
Hell, even Lego proved that they can make a 3D Sonic game better than the home company that created the series, Lego! In the same year no less.
I want to commend you and other fans like you for keeping the faith that Sega and Sonic Team are one day going to finally get it togther, but all of the ever increasing evidence that something is going on at Sega behind the scenes that are causing people bail out on them as well as Sonic Team to work for Nintendo or other companies to work on future projects, and hire new developers with little or no knowledge of the franchise's history, is making it insanely difficult to continue supporting the series I've grew up with since Sonic 2.
Not to mention the fact the Sonic Boom cartoon seems to go the meta/Teen Titans GO route and use the comedy, references, and 4th wall breaks as an excuse to say, "We acknowledge that we're screwing up a lot, but we're not going to do anything to fix it.".
You hit the nail right on the head, but at this point, I doubt they'll listen or rather, they will listen and will still screw up somehow. We gave them 10 years since 06 to get it right. After, Forces and how they tried to pull an EA on the fans, I can't take another deliberate disappointment like that. So, I'm done. Rant over.
So I see two big issues that could plague Sonic in the long term:
1. Muddled brand identity.
2. General mismanagement at Sonic Team.
Paradoxically enough, I think, and this is completely based on my own assumptions, its Sonic Team's constant attempt at giving these novel or 'out there' concepts to 3D Sonic that keeps the sales going strong. However, there will come a point where fans will get fatigue by these constant new directions that Sega will lose consumer trust. The problems wont just be that the quality of the games are lacking but also how to market them.
So...the DCEU?
Now here's the things Sonic Team NEEDS TO STOP bringing in their games:
*No Classic Sonic
*No more new gameplay styles (for Sonic)
*No 2D sections
*No Old Stages (unless it wasn't in Generations & Mania)
*NO MORE UNFINISHED ANYTHING! (Story, Gameplay, Physics, etc.)
*No more rushing
Jalen Payton
Aw, no more Sonic Rush?
Stardust Speedway Gaming No. I mean no rushed games like 06 & Boom.
And no more speed boosters and invisible springs! :)
lilmattere Yeah! No invisible springs and bring back the Modern Dash Panels
Yeah but dont spam them every two feet from eachother xD
This video is deep. Someone send this to Aaron webber. THIS CAN'T GO UNHEARD. SERIOUSLY!! SOMEONE PLEASE TRY JUST TRY TO GET THIS VIDEO TO SEGA OR AARON WEBBER. Get a translator or something
It's a Mii! TRY SON TRY Seriously or else we'll just keep getting weak games
I have. I've spread the video to most people i know
We need every bit of help to spread the message to Sega. I would if I could, but I honestly don't know how, if I even have the ability to. We must try none the less.
Jared foxy perhour - alpaca king- Exactly!
Webber is more a spokesman for Sega. If you send this to him, make sure the higher ups understand this video too, because webber can only do so much. Iizuka and the corporate heads at Sega are the ones who really need to see this.
My boy. Take this video, head straight into Sega of America, and show them. Hoping they would somehow see this video out of the Thousands on UA-cam is impossible.
That or have a shit ton of people tweet it at them.
SEGA needs to hire people who have some kind of idea on how 3D Sonic should work, and who can put those ideas into practice. There are fans out there who can fill that role (Sonic Utopia and Green Hill Paradise Act 2) and would give almost anything to be in that role. It wouldn't hurt SEGA to hire those fans.
OH yeah the whole "ceiling running is a skill" thing reminds me of bethesda saying "its not a bug, its a feature"
I kinda wanna make my first video on it but we haven't reached the renaissance era for Sonic, maybe in success but really to me, it's the Nostalgia Era
If I were to hazard a try at fixing the problem, I would say let whitehead and headcanon work on classic games with near absolute freedom, and have a separate team for modern sonic games, with that team being heavily reined in by dedicated fans to ensure that modern sonic games don't fall into the current bad habits they seem to have.
I swear. I always ask myself at the end of these videos...
WHY AREN'T YOU A GAME DEVELOPER?! YOU KNOW SONIC SO WELL LIKE THE BACK OF YOUR HAND!
Geezuz christ...this was a long video to take in one sitting lmao
Imo, There won't be a defined good Sonic game unless the fandom pulls itself together or pulled a Cod & have different teams work on different play styles.
The fandom is not going to do that, you can't force people to like what they don't like.
+SuperMarioT You are my second most favorite sonic UA-camr of all time below Cobi. Your sonic videos are always so right on point with what's true and needed for sonic. Thank you & I love your channel.
This was a fantastic video. You have a very well structured set up and your opinions on the subject matter are top notch here. I agree with you whole heatedly. We seem to share a similar outlook on the series as well. This comment might be long so I apologize in advance.
I feel like the Adventure style would be great to have again. Sega has no other options left anyway. I'd also like to see if the parkour ability could be used for it as well. It had potential like you said but the level design of Lost World didn't do it any favors. It would lend itself better to a more grounded and focused set of levels. On the subject of other playable characters. Sega's making it harder on themselves by not taking advantage of them and their abilities and in reality, it's not that hard to get. They just need to use the other characters in a similar fashion to Sonic and make sure that they all move fast. Just replace things like Sonic's bounce attack and parkour with things they can do. For example: Tails = Flight, Knuckles = Gliding and climbing, Shadow = Chaos powers etc. (The boost could also be used exclusively for Super Sonic this way too.) Sega's always wondering about how to make Sonic work in 3D and all I have to say to Izuka and his team about that is: "You should have found your answer by now!"
To quickly mention the Wisps, if Sega wants them to stay in the series, I think they should be power-ups for the Chao in their Chao Gardens. It's a more creative use for them at this point anyway and if they want to use power-ups in levels, that's what the 4 shields, speed shoes and invincibility items are for. Also, with Sega and Sonic Team's thoughts on 06, It happened over a decade ago. The bashing it got back then was understandable but it's time they got over it. Yes. The game was embarrassingly,laughably bad, no question there but the series will never truly recover if we keep licking old wounds like 06 all the time and constantly rely on Classic Era "nostalgia" which has been milked bone dry at this point anyway. Like it or not, they need to let it go.
Lastly, If Sega and Sonic Team REALLY want to "Win Back Fans Trust" as much as they say they do, there is one other thing that Sega can do if not an obvious one. Stop rushing all of their games for any sort of anniversary or holiday releases, (In other words, when they are making the next game whatever it may be, they need to TAKE... THEIR...TIME! Doing that along with having a proper vision for the series would help them with the series tremendously and for goodness sake... be honest with how a game's development is going, (what it will have as well as it's overall goal.) Finally when talking about their next game in any form or fashion, whatever they do, DON'T LIE ABOUT IT!) False advertising and empty promises just continues to make them look bad and loose even MORE trust in the eyes of their fans! Or in Genesis terms: if Sega wants Sonic to stay in the "ZONE", then they need to get their "ACT" together!
God SMT I love how informative and how many interesting ideas there are in your meaty 30 minute videos
A fantastic video. Very well structured and informative. Thank you for the amount of substance and thought you put into these videos.
I totally agree with your thoughts. Recent Sonic titles have been entirely too dependent on nostalgic factors and dated elements in order to try and shoehorn quality into their titles. It's a very artificial thought process, just because fans appreciated the zone when it was an original concept before doesn't mean they'll appreciate its repeated return. A Sonic game I genuinely adore is Sonic Colors. There's originality and creativity into the worlds and artistic design of the worlds of the Colors. There is substance and story elements to the world and how it exists, giving it that needed cohesion and believability. The wisps are a welcome, original concept which are not only a charming aesthetic idea, but also contribute to the gameplay. While I didn't always had fun with Sonic Colors and some of its more finnicky platforming sections, it was still a bit more clear and concise on what it wanted to be as a game. No one's objective ought to be a people-pleaser. Sonic shouldn't include forced or artificial gimmicks for the sake of trying to please an impossibly wide spectrum of consumers, but rather have a focus and clear intent on what kind of specific gaming experience they want to make. I suppose I ought to clarify what I desire in a potential, 3D Sonic game.
I have yet to play any Adventure style games, my experience has came from the boost formula titles. While the boost can be entertaining, I think I would be more enticed by the less constrained Adventure style of gameplay, from what I witnessed in videos. The main objective in the design, from my perspective, is to ensure that you have a clear intent of how the character should play and make sure there is natural synergy between each of the moves. Make sure the level design adheres to such a natural moveset and is adjusted to such abilities (you know, slopes and loops, but without the automation) and ensure that the presentation and story elements are clear and concise. A setting that is evocative of the fantasies of Sonic's world and original in its design. A narrative that has consistency and is correspondent to Sonic's lore.
Anyway, sorry for the lengthy comment. Great video again
great analysis, you pointed out the problems of the series so well i really don't know what to add.
really, really great, i'm subscribing to you
Sonic Team jumped ship to Nintendo? That explains some things...
30:06 Same applies for Paper Mario. Literally almost no one wants to see it be experimental. Being different or unique or creative means nothing when the product is complete garbage and the ideas don't fit like Sticker Star and to a lesser extent Color Splash.
That's grat, but I do have to wonder if we'll even get a new Paper Mario game in the future or bot.
Super Paper Mario made the mistake of going overboard with its choice of character design & as a result later games didn't even let us have the personalized Toads, Goombas, Koopas, etc from the 1st & 2nd Paper Mario Games or the Partners of those species that we came to love. Bringing back Goombella would have helped sell a newer Paper Mario game.
Personally, unlike most fans, I'm more acceptable to what Sega gives for Sonic. I not afraid to admit that I enjoyed games like Sonic 2006 and Sonic Boom and think they're pretty great, but it's still nice to watch videos like this.
13:17 Imo it's almost unfair why they left. I mean tbh I feel like Nintendo already has things figured out with their gaming franchises that developers from Sega and Sonic Team shouldnt move over to their side for assistance. Like their company is way more capable as of now, (no offense to Sega) to make a game without the extra developers from past games. I just wish that Sonic Team still kept and committed towards the developers that made good sonic games. Botw, Xenoblade, and Mk8 are all series well received. Funny how they had sonic team developers on their side to help with fully successful and good reputation games imo.
damn half an hour long. Good Job. Every minute watching was worth it.
This is one heck of a breakdown. This is so well informing, this vid alone should have all of the Sonic fanbase subbed to you.
Or a least a million subs. Really, you deserve more.
This was an amazing video man! Great job on this. I agree on all of it!
I love how you crafted your sentences! Good job!
If we get an Adventure style game, Have the fans make it. I am very skeptical about Sega and Sonic Team's effort since Forces...
And yeah you cant please every sonic fan with 1 game. Everyone has their own preferred gamestyle.
notice how takeshii izuka always uses the words "evolve" and "move forward" when questioned about a gameplay change that winds up not working well or being fun.
these are buzzwords to brainwash the player into having higher expectations than they should, people. wake up.
Even megaman 11 even if the game is not out yet and we don't know if it will deliver it could still fail (i highly doubt it). It still feels great to have a team that has an idea of what the fans want seeing the many interviews on megaman 11 with the developers put a smile on my face. Sega has made a 2d game before but one of the big reasons sonic mania was received better with the launch trailer as opposed to sonic 4 is because WE KNEW who christian whitehead was WE KNEW who headcannon was and some of us knew who pagodawest games was and we knew what they were capable of. But now with sonic team I just don't know...
Besides, the issue with Megaman was less that they were making bad or mediocre titles, and more that they weren't making any Megaman games for a while.
That's a great video you've done there especially giving Sega/Sonic Team an important advice. I wasn't fully optimistic about what Sega/Sonic Team's goings with those Sonic games but I srsly hoped Sega should be aware to make the games much coherent, and interesting in the future.
Aaron Webber is kind of a shill, to be honest. He'll go on his personal twitter to berate a guy for refunding Sonic Forces and saying that gamers deserve better but he definitely doesn't mind trying to sell a 20 year old feature and making a haf-assed excuse for it.
FoxCordova17 Don't tell the Sonic subreddit that. But yeah, I admit that the sonic twitter gave me some good laughs, but it only really serves as distraction from the mess that sonic's been over the years.
I feel like Sonic 06 would have been a great game if they took there time. I hate how they rush these games because they give us a date, we want to be surprised and amazed on time and structure. But all we get is bland plots and the same levels such as Green Hill and chemical plant. SEGA has made wonderful 3D games but then it started to die down on quality and dedication they put into the games. SEGA needs a big game changer if they want to succeed in the future.
I actually like forces and lost world...yeah I'm a weird sonic fan. I think that they're biggest problems are the wisps and nostalgia (sonic team's problems not lost world and forces although nostalgia and wisps are some of forces problems though) I believe that 2D sections as much as people say they hate em as do I, they likely (and unfortunately) will stay. Honestly where I believe sonic is heading next will go introduce another gameplay style (again) then mania 2 will come out, everyone will love that and hate the new style and then the cycle once again shall continue
Combining could work in theory...
Momentum physics of the Genesis games, the depth and complexity of the Adventure games, and the modern boost with added parkour, all kept in something of an open world could make for an enticing new experience. Just needs polish, focus, and talent.
Very insightful video. It really makes me wonder what direction Sonic will take, and whatever that may be, let's hope it's a direction that will better the series and its relationship with the fans
I'm not getting my hopes up for any SonicTeam Sonic game from now on unless for some bizarre reason they manage to make something worth while. Wether it'd be Boost, Adventure, or remake.
I just want a sonic game thats fun and made with LOVE. I don't care if its boom, classic, adventure or boost. I just want a game that shows that sega cares
hedgehog the sonic play generations
+Silver/Nick Sonic Generations isn't a new game. It's almost six years old at this point. The feeling has worn off for most Sonic fans.
hedgehog the sonic i just want a GOOD 3D SONIC GAME. I want people to just shut up and see that Sonic can work in 3D. I havent had a GOOD 3D Sonic game since 2011. 7 Years!!
Agustin Leguiza well Sonic Team has been working on something since generations so....
Agustin Leguiza Yeah i know where you're coming from. I also want a good 3d game. I don't mind even if its boom. If it's made well and by a team that cares. I just don't have any preference for any 3d sonic game. I just love sonic plain and simple.
I've been absent from watching your videos for a while but I decided to start watching them again! I agree with a lot of things you said in the video and I hope Sonic can get back on track again.
Well again, at least the late 25th Anniversary wasn’t a total disaster compared to the 15th.
DarkSonic180 No it’s not.
DarkSonic180 So you’re saying that mania is just as bad as 06 and sonic gba?
Bort Theattorney
Don’t bother with DS180, he’s a manchild.
gameman5804 Agreed.
I know you showed psyco that meme.
Not cool to cry over words on the internet.
If you ask me, there's no redemption in how Sonic Team and SEGA handles Sonic. They simply never learn from any of their mistakes, no matter how many times it happens. The best solution is just put the mainline Sonic series on ice for a good number of years and let the Mania team work on more original 2D Sonic games, and eventually their own 3D Sonic game.
Not sure about that (Not the part where they should make the 2D titles, more the part abut them making a 3D Sonic game).
Sega needs quit it with relying on Nostalgia, there's nothing wrong with nostalgia but when us it all the time. It's receptive and boring. I was really excited for Forces but turned out be a disappointment but Mania was the best Sonic game i've played in years. Make a Mania 2 and new 3D Sonic no gimmicks or nostalgia pandering. Gameplay style I like the boost and adventure gameplay and why not fuse them together.
Every Sonic fan (or hater I think) and people who are worried about sonic has to watch this video to understand what's going on with Sonic. People like SomeCallMeJohnny, Caddicarus, ect. really need to see this. Caddicarus actually likes Sonic now because of Sonic Mania having a great idea and focus and more people would like Sonic as well if the guy you mentioned did listen carefully instead of lie, get greedy and put on too many nostalgia goggles on his face. Some one needs to spread this video to everyone. I personally like Sonic, but I know he could be even better if they do listen carefully.
THANK YOU SO MUCH. 2D Nostalgia fests are going to kill this series someday.
13:27 Wow. I never knew that. That is so sad. All these people that we as fans loved and adored their work moved on to other projects no sonic related and succeeded tremendously. I think that's the most depressing thing yet. Lol Sonic Team is so abandoned. Rip having good developers... Imagine the possibilities of they had just stayed. Not that I'm judging them or hating them tho.
while i hear you, i see the sa2 gameplay....
damn, i love that gameplay.
I would be fine with Sega making the taxman and stealth in charge of sonic from now on. 3D sonic has nowhere left to go. It had a brief renaissance with half of unleashed, Colors, Generations, and some parts of Lost World, but Sonic Team took that momentum and flushed it down the toilet.
I have 3 things to say.
1. Congratulations, You have turned me into one of the most confused Sonic fans ever to exist in the current era.
2. Nostalgia pandering = Mislead marketing hype
3. It's about time I play a few more Sonic games, including Free Riders.
free riders? boi
My friend has an Xbox 360, and I want to take the challenge.
alright then
I'll have to drop my trousers and wave those back and forth, to select the game mode.
lol
A lot of this should be common sense. But Sonic Team and SEGA's attempts at 'bringing in new fans' isn't mutually exclusive to just Modern Sonic.
It was in his DNA as the American icon for SEGA's branding to act as an experimental plaything, even as far back as Sonic and Knuckles attemtping to experiment with the proto Sonic 3D Blast style of isometric gameplay which would've been feasible had the technology been up to snuff to suit Yuji Naka's desires.
Sonic Adventure (back when it was Sonic RPG for the SEGA Saturn) wanted to include other gameplay styles to bring in fans who otherwise wouldn't have been interested in Sonic before.
Its been built up over the years that everyone has 'their' core ideal of Sonic and it isn't mutually exclusive to just gameplay like Classic 2D, Rush 2D, Adventure, Adventure(ish) in the case of Heroes, 06 and Shadow, Boost, Storybook games, ETC...
You also have Sonic fans that get antsy over aesthetic details like US Canon over Japanese Canon, preference of realistic artstyles vs cartoonish looks.
Again, this split was built up over the years with so many different expectations and far too many people having an expectation that fails to be met by nature of SEGA being a Japanese company who more than likely misinterprets what their core consumers (I.E Western Fans) want.
2008 Sonic fans wanted more Classic Sonic? Oh you mean *Sonic 4* Fans respond with jerky physics, Modern Sonic, Green eyes and generally wanting a more focused product based on their expectations when they hear the title Sonic 4.
And as stated where Mania succeeded and Forces fell flat was in focus and the clear cut goal of "This is the game we want to make, lets do it" rather than attempting to bridge together Classic, Modern, a hint of Adventure but not too much and ultimately ending up with a rushed product by that and a number of other Behind the Scenes problems.
Focus at the end of the day is what Sonic Team needs to think about and just focus on crafting something that they want to make.
I'd be perfectly fine with Modern Sonic having a hiatus while Sonic Team chip away at a new focused Sonic game whatever it may be now that the Hedgehog Engine 2 is complete leaving Sonic Team free to refine their skills and work on a product that will reinvigorate the series with a new spark of life.
Barring any sort of gameplay style that the fans want, like you said, the Sonic series just needs a defining statement of "This is what Sonic is now, and this is the direction we're going, if you don't like that, then sorry, but we're gonna have to cut our losses here. Bye!"
Granted my cynical side expects nothing perfect or even something I'd even like if Sonic Mania is going to be where Sonic is headed, but at least I'd understand that "Okay, this isn't to my tastes, but that's fine, the series knows what it wants now and I can pretty much take or leave the Sonic games I love while leaving the series to the people that love wherever the series is headed now"
And once again, it might not completely silence people who clamor for a new Sonic Adventure or whatever but it would at least show that Sonic Team have a plan and will stick with it as they come to refine the games from then on.
But that's idealism talking, I don't think this is gonna be the case.
I have a concept that Sonic Team could implement into a future installment. In at least one 3D game, implement Team Sonic (Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles) and their abilities from Sonic 3&K and Sonic Mania. Sonic will use either the Adventure or Boost formula, while Tails and Knuckles will strictly use the momentum-based Adventure formula. The character-specific paths from Sonic 3&K and Sonic Mania will come back (if two or more characters traverse the same levels). Knuckles climbs on walls. Tails flies for a short period of time. Sonic uses either a drop dash, boost, insta-shield, or super peel out. But they all spin dash.
The elemental shields or Wisps could come back. but only Sonic can use all of their abilities. Tails and Knuckles could find hidden upgrades, like Sonic Adventure 1 and 2, but instead the upgrades are tucked away in the levels. Either that, or the Special Stages and Super forms can return as a reward for exploration. This is one way to establish core controls and brand identity. Players will recognize gameplay concepts and character personalities from older games. Finally, the players will experience a new part of Sonic's world and a new story.
Kirby....Kirby has had a series of Experimental Spin off games, most of Kirby’s game collection is spin offs. But other than those experimental titles, there still is a main Focus for Kirby, and that focus is that of a 2D Platformer, sure There are Many spin offs, But only one Gamestyle Has Been Done Twice, And it didn’t Get in the way Of The main focus of Kirby, a 2D Platformer. While sonic is trying many Different Playstyles at once And has Basically thrown Focus out of the window, Sonic should be more like Kirby and Focus on Mainly one Thing While Occasionally Giving Out a new idea or ,Spin off (at least that’s how I see it).
Train #4 No Kirby is boring, it always has the same gameplay style, that's the point that's Sonic's so unique, because of all of the different gameplay styles.
While Kirby does have the same Gameplay The Ultimate Gaming Hero They mix it By Making you eat a fruit that Turns you into a black whole, or Taking control of a giant Killer robot, Or Turning you’re fiends into Friends, Giving a whole new edge too the copy ability system. Since Kirby has Focused On One Playstyle, they were able too Add More Too it and perfect it, Sonic Focuses On More Than one often leaving One out or Favoring One Gameplay style over another not Improving That Gameplay style. (And if you would’ve watched the video you would’ve known that because SMT States The Same Thing in His Video)
+The Ultimate Gaming Hero At least Kirby having one gameplay style makes the franchise stable, whereas with Sonic having a bunch of different gameplay styles is a bit of a clusterfuck. Mario also has one gameplay style, while expanding upon it in each new game, rather than making entirely new gameplay.
Basically what I said Calibur The Plumber
Train #4 I already knew that. Also I watched this video I'm just saying that that's the reason why I became a Sonic fan and also the reason why I find Mario and Kirby boring.
Even though I love Sonic Mania and Sonic Forces, I have to agree entirely that Sonic Team need to get their shit together. If they are to succeed, they need developers who have an idea for Sonic and try to establish a formula that works best for Sonic that keep his speed and platforming in check.
The level design is one of the biggest examples. The level design needs to balance out Sonic’s speed and platforming by having alternate pathways with plenty of secrets such as the red star rings and they rewarded for exploring the levels. The best example is with Sonic Generations. The levels were very open and and reward players with the red rings for exploring these levels. The length in levels need to feel long as well (Not like the Werehog) cuz one of my main issues with Forces is that the levels were way too short. Levels need to be around 3-5 minutes long so they don’t end halfway through and with alternate pathways with challenging platforming obstacles can make these levels feel long. Levels also need to feel less automated and allow players more control over Sonic. It’s fine in certain areas but they don’t need to be in a Sonic game about 90% of the time. The level that showed the example of far too many automation is Luminous Forest in Forces. While I thought the stage was okay, it has way too many dash panels that felt unnecessary like in the two halfpipe segments. So, to Sonic Team, they need to have less automation and scripted sequences so they can allow more control for the player. If they get the right people who know how to design a Sonic level then I have no doubt that the next game’s level design will be an improvement over Forces. Granted, Forces’ level design was okay at best in my opinion but it needs a bit more refining.
When it comes to development if Sonic Team are developing the next game, they do need to take their time developing it but they need to test the game to make sure that there aren’t any bugs within them and remove them to make sure they function properly. Also, if they’re too late to finish the next game before the deadline, they need to push the deadline back another year so they can iron out all the kinks because as what one of my favourite reviewers Exoparadigmgamer said, ‘It is never a good idea to rush a game out just to meet a deadline.’
Furthermore, they need to stick to a formula that Sonic has adapted over the years and keep it that way. If they want to do the boost formula, they can stick with the boost formula. If they want the adventure formula, they can stick with the adventure formula. So long as they don’t include any experimental gameplay style. As much as I love the Werehog in Unleashed, it was unnecessary and didn’t fit with Sonic’s element and that’s speed and platforming.
Finally, yeah Sonic Team really need to stop relying on nostalgia. No Green Hill. No Chemical Plant. Just no reimagined levels except for 100% original stages. That way, it makes the next Sonic game feel fresh and new and combine that with the level design that I mentioned and then it could get something great.
These are just what I think should happen. I do think that Sonic Mania and Forces are steps in the right direction for the Sonic series. But if Sonic Team are going to keep it that way, they need to up their game a lot more by having developers in their team who understand the formula of the Sonic series and a consistant time in development to test and remove bugs and glitches to make the next Sonic game a great experience. Otherwise, it’s gonna be another flop for the Sonic series.
It is just what I think should happen in the next Sonic game. Anyway, good video.
EDIT: I forgot to add this during my comment, but Classic Sonic does not need to be in the next game or anywhere except in another 2D Sonic game.
D.Dude25 DL if it's gonna be 3d, make it 3d dammit. And no I'm not talking about the 2d sections, that's a pretty neat idea tbh. It's the fact that it's just a 2d game from behind, in tight corridors and simple control.
Sonic utopia comes to mind as fast as sonic himself. Level tropes were designed for a 2d plain, and their existence in 3d is always treated with automation as address. NEW IDEAS people. How about a circular bowl you can roll around in to gain speed and fling into the distance? Why not introduce physics nuances like rolling into enemies head on slowing the player down?
It's all in the design. My problem is that 3d sonic hasn't even been properly INVENTED yet. Kinda half assed. They took the visual iconography of loops but didn't think of a functional alternative to a mechanic which tests your speed and can let you gain more with skill. Like that bowl I mentioned for example.
The 2D sections need to go. There's nothing innovative about it, it just limits the level design. There's no reason to force 2D in a 3D game.
TheZelda'srealnameislink Yeah I guess. 3D games used to be released along with the Dimps ones so when they stopped making those they tried to put everything in one form of gameplay. If you try to please evryone you please no one as was said in that video I faintly remember regarding Sonic's current state of being.
Dude you know Sonic better then the Sonic Team. Great Vid bro
I'm relieved u're back to making videos like this once in a while cuz i can't wait till u reach 10k subs man
True words spoken.
This video explains so much about Sonic's issues that I really never considered before. I hope SEGA/Sonic Team cleans up their act and finally address the issues of Sonic's identity crisis.