6:45 This. SEGA caused their own problems when they started advertising Sonic as "fast", and now that's all Sonic is known for. It's gotten to the point where people complain whenever a Sonic level has areas where you have to slow down and do some platforming, even though Sonic games are supposed to be platformers.
God forbid there is some platforming in a platformer. And if you don't like the slow platforming, learn the physics and exploit the level design and you'll skip it. Ever since Sonic 1 you could do that (see RetropolisZone's Sonic 1 review). It's a million times more satisfying to skip a large platforming section by your own skill and wits rather than just be dragged along for the ride. TL; DR Don't like slow platforming in a Sonic game, then git gud scrub.
heaven forbid that there's fast paced platformers. seriously though, Sonic never stop being a platformer. ever heard of a speed running platformer like Mirror's Edge? where the whole point is to go through level as smooth as possible without stopping in order to sell you on the freerunning spirit? Sonic is the exact same thing, granted with more arcady elements like stomping. speedrunning as a platforming genre is growing more and more especially with the Indie scene. so why demonize Sonic for doing the same thing ahead of It's Time?
Thank you. This gotta go fast mantra has finally come back to bite Sega in the ass as now Sonic has gone from being known as an action platformer to a complete and broken speed orientated game icon that can't even work without some other mechanic there to compliment it. I've said time and time again Sonic went fast in the old days for hardware marketing. He went fast cos the Sega Genesis allowed him to. He went fast cos Mario didn't and it became a key selling point in all of their cheesy yet charming commercials. But in reality, the actual games were a lot more about rhythm and momentum-Keeping a steady flow of movement not just going ridiculously fast for the sake of it. It was ACTION, not just SPEED things like combat platforming and nice set pieces made Sonic but speed was like fanservice but now speed is the main force(don't get me wrong I don't hate that but Sonic has been whitewashed in people's minds. Now speed is all he's about which isn't accurate) NGL it's also why people can't handle combat in sonic heroes/were hog cos it isn't fast even though Sonic has had combat before.
The boost is a double edged sword really, definitely not one of the best things. On the one hand, you've got something that takes a good amount of skill to properly utilize, which fits in with the theme of the old games. You wanna beat a level in 2 minutes, you better get good at this and reduce your speed loss as much as you can. It also just lets you go really fast, which satisfies the guys that just want the spectacle. On the other hand, you've now got a tool that effectively lets you ignore momentum because you always have it at the single touch of a button, whereas before you had to physically build up momentum and maintain it. You can ignore any mistakes you made because in an instant you're just zooming off again. You're mostly invincible during it so you can completely ignore enemies in your path instead of caring about them. You're moving so fast the level can't stop to offer you any platforming, which you know... Sonic was kinda born as, a platformer. Generations was good and Unleashed was basically ass because the former actually put in plenty of platforming moments, and the latter was all 'run run run do this quicktime event now run more.' I won't say there's no fun to the boost but the boost is not the spindash. It's not one of the best things. If you like it though dood, have at it mang.
Dai Tian do you classify a platformer as something that's just being slow? there's so many ways to execute a platformer. the very basis is jumping and being launched. that's it. the boost gameplay is about flow based platforming. it's not about jumping as much as it is about consistently moving. you're not stuck to just one usable action throughout the entirety of the game. you have an entire versatile moveset, varying depending from character to character, that you need to utilise properly. speed is a challenge that you're graded on. not a reward for repetitive play. it's the main point of the series. Not a feeling like an afterthought like the classics. so calling it boost to win is ignoring the whole point of boosting. It's movement.
The low floor-high ceiling thing is something I've been thinking about a lot, especially in comparison to mario games. If you want to beat Super Mario Bros, you need to be very skilled. Enemies kill you in one or two hits, you have to jump on top of them, there's no way to just barrel through. Meanwhile in Sonic games, getting hit costs you your rings but you can pick them up again so you're almost invincible, you can hit enemies from any angle, and if you're rolling you don't even have to jump at them at all. Basically, Sonic games are easy as shit... IF you just want to clear the levels and see the credits. But the point of Sonic games has never been just to win, it's to be skilled enough to keep your momentum, move fast, and take faster, more challenging paths. The penalty for getting hit isn't dying, but it isn't just losing rings either. It stops you dead in your tracks, forcing you to get all your momentum again, something Mario never has to worry about.
beclark2001 But with the boost mechanic there isn't much skill needed to keep their speed because you get full speed with a press of a button and in most areas you NEED the boost to get through and you never lose it because it's based on rigs
beclark2001 what I'm saying is there isn't much skill based input from the player, but there could be a game that isn't all momentum based like sa1 or sa2, boost games feel very linear removing most or all exploration
Well yes, in the strictest sense movement speed is no longer the reward it used to be before they introduced the spindash. Nowadays more open and rewarding paths are behind more of a skill barrier than a speed barrier. Just like how you can skip the rising water section of chemical plant by being better at the game, so can you shave time and obstacles off your runs in the boost era by taking hidden pathways or chaining homing attacks to higher paths. Pure movement speed as a reward stopped being interesting after Sonic 1, so now you're rewarded for your skill with high, open pathways that allow you to beat the levels faster, among other things. Speed is still the reward, but it's intermediated by different pathways.
Fungo4 I never said that speed as a reward houldnt be the only thing, like I said it should be used effectively to make it a skillful use instead of the boost gameplay where that is near nonexistent
A human being who can analyse and evaluate Sonic fairly, objectively and without bias or extreme hyperbole? Who can see the good and bad in everything instead of turning his nose up at the smallest issues? *WHY AREN'T THERE MORE PEOPLE LIKE YOU!?*
Hey everyone! I had a mistake in this video pointed out to me a couple of times, which is that Dimps actually made one more game after Sonic 4 Episode II: Sonic Lost World on the 3DS. Totally an oversight on my part, and thanks to those who reminded me!
Good on you for acknowledging this oversight but... those games were terrible so I was fine with you ignoring them because even I forgot they existed until now.
My man 🙌🏻 Someone really needs to send this vid to Sonic Team. 14:11 Everytime I'm reminded of Sonic 4, I always just get annoyed. Dimps did a really great job with the Advance series so how could they have messed things up so badly?
Of course! The only reason the Classic physics can't be recreated in the Hedgehog engine is because it's already specialized for Modern Sonic gameplay.
Excellent analysis. I have been saying this about Sonic games for YEARS. Automation is way too overused in Modern Sonic games and shouldn't be used as a crutch anymore. I pray that Sonic Team looks at what Sonic Utopia is doing so that they can learn how to do Sonic properly in 3D. I'm not excited for Forces as much as I was before and that scares me
TyTheGuy Automatiom taking things directly out of your control and automating it. you do see there's a lot in the classics and Dreamcast era games just to be flashy and convince you that the games are about speed while you hold forward for 10 to 20 seconds with no variation. however, stuff like that rarely happens in the modern games because you have an entire controller full of movement options and the game actively utilizes them. so how is this automation?
Samir Malik The Dreamcast era games did have a lot of automation but it was rarely in the classic games, what I'm getting at is that the Boost formula games overuse boosters to gain speed rather than physics based movement from the classic games.
Great video as always, man. Personally, I'm waiting to see more of Sonic Utopia. Mr. Lange said that they're working on making the game more linear, and trying to fix the level design, as he's aware that the Green Hill Demo is too big and the player can easily get lost in it. Very curious to see where he and MurasakiFox take the project going forward. Also, minor nitpick: "Dimps have not developed another Sonic game since." Not true, they developed the 3DS version of Lost World. Lost World 3DS was the last Sonic game they worked on.
Still not sure how Dimps screwed up Sonic 4's design so much, yet demonstrated in the GBA era that they were capable of exercising the Classic Sonic formula with the Advance games (though those were a bit more speed-oriented).
Could not have said it better myself "literally". Hey, I know you got a lot more subscribers then me but I also made a video talking about sonic. I was explaining why many people were less excited for sonic forces then mania. I don't think I was able to explain very well, why the classic games were a good representation of sonic, like you did. Any ways, awesome video.
I'm unable to come up with a constructive and coherent comment about this vide, so I'll just say: I loved every single minute of it! Your analysis is spot on. You really do understand the fundamental elements which constructs a _good_ Sonic game, and this is the battle I've been waging against the mainstream Sonic community for almost a decade, which misunderstands the classics and completely miss the point on what makes a Sonic game good. So much so, that I felt the need to step out of my position as a developer to bring attention to the actual state of that so-called game that _dared_ to be named Sonic 4 when it was still in development back in the beginning of 2010.
I’ve never played Sonic 4. However, I just saw sonic casually walk up that walk, where he would’ve fallen in the original games. It changed the narrative from “he’s so fast, that he can defy gravity and go up this wall” to “on this wall, gravity is horizontal, and a little bit downward to slow him down.”
I’ve been thinking, and I think that Shaymay’s “Speed, Platforming, *and* Exploration” is an extension of the first Element shown here. Put simply, those other two elements increase the amount of applications for momentum, thus making the game in question more about momentum.
Nice dude This video encompasses what it took me three years of research to understand about Sonic. It's a great way to get someone caught up on how the *"serious"* fans think Sonic games should be made.
4:17 Sorry dude but your spreading misinformation when you state Lost World doesn’t affect Sonic’s speed in different terrains. You where literally stating this, whilst showcasing Desert Ruin’s which has sand lmao & Frozen Factory which allows Sonic to slide & skate, boosting his standard running speed. Even Parkour does this if you run into a wall with enough speed & Spin Dash to further yourself, by giving yourself some much needed extra juice, to sustain the Parkour technique. 15:07 Dimps went on to create the Sonic Generations 3DS & Sonic Lost World 3DS. Please stop lying would you. It’s infuriating!
"I can point to the classics that utilized little to no story" Are you serious...? Those games were LOADED with lore, especially Sonic 3 & Knuckles. They just didn't shove dialogue-heavy cutscenes in front of you every seven minutes; taking an almost Metroid Prime approach before Metroid Prime was even a thing. Not a very good way to start, if I'm being honest.
Lugbzurg For one, there is a distinct difference between story and narrative which I encourage you to research and discern the difference between, because S3&K does one extremely well and doesn't bother much with the other. Secondly, little to none of that lore you refer to is actually contained within the Classics themselves, and a lot of that was retroactively included later on through Sonic Adventure and the Archie comics. Since you need to experience SUPPLEMENTAL material to discover this, you kind of just proved my point that story IS supplemental, not fundamental :)
I would argue that even in the classics there is a fair share of automation and gaining instant speed aka boost panels, set pieces and the spindash. The only difference is that maintaining that speed was more key in those games, thats why I enjoy the boost formula mainly in sonic unleashed sure anyone can press a button down but try maintining that speed throughout adabat, not getting hit and getting a really good time, even though they have automation the real challenge is maintaining such a pace.
I feel you severely exaggerated the automation with the loading screens part. It's really not that bad and I think it's clear people are overreacting to such minimal segments and are playing those sonic games for the wrong reasons. They're expecting a playstyle very different and are wanting too much control not realizing what makes those games so fun. It'd the spectacle and the sense of speed that makes those games so fun. They aren't bad and automation is what makes it so fun when used sparingly. I agree with what you said about classic Sonic but when it comes to anything 3D I feel like you understand so little that you struggle but still maintain the mindset of a classic fan that doesn't accept change. This is why people hate the games so much. It's people like you that want sonic to instead play liek classic instead if enjoying them for what they are and realizing they're fun in their own way. Lost world wasn't bad in any means in terms of gameplay. In fact they nailed it for the most part but you seem to believe in the fallacy that they should all follow one gameplay philosophy or style. That simply isn't true. And grading them all with one system is like me grading every Mario game the same way as the first super mario Bros. when in reality such a review system of grading is so inherently flawed that you end up in the horrid mindset all other games are bad because they aren't like the classics. I can't review every mario games with a system that was for Mario Bros, it simply doesn't work like that. It's idiotic in my opinion to treat every sonic game and compare it with one gameplay style. Sonic and the black knight gameplay wise wasn't half bad just different. I Can't review Mario sunshine and compare it to super mario world. You shouldn't compare sonic generations or even the black knight to sonic 3 or sonic 1. Those gameplay styles are very different and are enjoyed in their own way and people do not enjoy classics for the same reason as they do for the modern games. But you have yet to understand that my friend as you're too blinded by the classics to see that unfortunately.
A little curious about your thoughts on Black Knight. Do you have a video on it? My take is that it (as well as Secret Rings and non-06 games prior to Boost) are more engaging since they don't have a mechanic eliminates enemies and levels in a single button press. I agree with your principles but think Lost World was still a more engaging step even if a flawed one.
Your argument on "boost to win" is so right, Bro. Is the Boost gameplay, there is momentum but it wasn't as focused as it should have been in modern games. Unleashed is a really good example of using the momentum from drifting or sliding and stomping, although it could just be the glitches.😆 At 4:40 you show a good example of what I'm talking about. I wanna see more of that.
Such an amazing essay, man. Kudos. Nothing warms my heart more than seeing a Sonic fan who truly understands what makes a great Sonic game tick. I cant think of a single point here that I disagree with. There is such a wide chasm of understanding between the different sects of fandom, but essays like this bring everything together in a way that’s easy to understand, granted you have played the games mentioned
7:03 - 7:34 This is why everyone hates Sonic Advance 2 & pretty much the rest of the trilogy (less so 1). They get frustrated when their momentum is constantly interrupted, and it's usually a case that occurs when they don't test out different mechanics, tricks and techniques introduced in the games to avoid this and even build their momentum quicker (the Boost Mode mechanic from Advance 2 can be retained if the player jumps and continues to a different direction from the wall or obstacle that stops them moving, which get you building up speed quicker again in that Boost Mode)
I like your analyses (analysises? whatever) of Sonic. But, I never really think in depth about stuff like this. I usually recognize what I find "good" and "not good" about the Sonic games that I like. And mostly, I realize that the whole "skill ceiling" thing is something I never cared about mostly because of the way I play Sonic. I've always been more reactionary, taking things as they come, and reacting accordingly in order to achieve speed. I don't try to abuse shortcuts and stuff. As such, I think that's why I find myself way more leneant on Sonic's more recent ventures. Still, while watching your video essays make me feel just a tad stupid (not your fault), I think you offer an interesting look at Sonic as a whole. I disagree on Forces, though. That game just makes me so happy. But whatevs, I get it.
You know what? You have just earned an enthusiastic subscriber today. You showcase things in a sound, fair manner. Never once have you come across as biased, judgmental, irate, or emotionally charged in any of your recent videos. Seriously, I think you might just be my favorite youtuber in recent years and I so hope you grow as a channel. See, I grew up playing all kinds of Sonic games starting with Sonic Rush, Colors DS, and the 3 Classic Sonic games, then the more heavily 3D games like SA1 and 2, and the modern version of Rush's gameplay like Generations and Unleashed. I even played Lost World as well. There's potential in every Sonic gameplay style in my eyes. And I try my best to look at the positive aspects of those gameplay styles and their potential. You seem to do the same thing too and I'm happy to see somebody else approach the series in the same kind of versatility as I do. It's not about one thing or the other, but the combination of certain moving parts and elements that truly makes each Sonic game enjoyable.
People keep forgetting that the Sonic Team we have now is NOT the same Sonic Team that people remember fondly from a decade ago. Most of SEGA's Talent left due to the irreversible damage to the chain of command that was done, as a consequence they are now the Nintendo Team.
8:18 Gotta *Throw Sonic Team under the bus* fast amirite? Seriously though, this video was great insight on the design mentality of the Sonic franchise.
In all fairness, "Sonic Chornicles: Dark Brotherhood" didn't really met its end because of bad reception or any other traditional reason, SEGA/Sonic Team/Bio Ware got a lawsuit on the ground that the Dark Brotherhood, main villain of this game, were a rip-off of the Dark Legion from the Sonic Archie Comic series. Ken Penders who create a bunch of characters in the Archie cannon was the one to sue them.
Spectacle elements via automation was also present in automation in the classics as well such as the Tubes in chemical plant, the Canons in Oil Ocean, triangle bumper hallways in Carnival Night, etc. Then there is rolling which while momentum based, largely leaves the game playing itself after a single input. Loops in particular largely required so little momentum to overcome, that calling it an obstacle over spectacle primarily in function largely strikes me as disengenous. Just wanted to give some more accurate perspective to the degree of which automation has existed and been integral to the series, and that while a problem when poorly used, isn't bad in of itself.
I think people forget that Dimps made Sonic Generations for the 3DS and in that game Classic Sonic's physics works like it did in the Classic Sonic games.
Also, to add on to the 'automation' part, have you noticed that every 3D Sonic game since Adventure has some sort of Dash Panel right before loops and steep hills? It almost makes me think the game's physics aren't, how should I say...confident enough to let you make that part on your own. For loops, it's a bit more understandable as people who have played fan games have trouble running on loops without falling off, but why steep walls? It's just something I noticed
unfortunately, only your first rule holds up to your preface also, doesn't Lost World's wallrunning have vertical momentum (speed gradient based on intertia)?
I love this video. The problem with most fans, is that they don't know what they want. These 4 things are actually what they want. I would also add an element though, a main form of gameplay that is the core of the game, with all other forms being optional. While you like games like sonic unleashed, wouldn't it be better if were-sonic was an optional way to play the game, rather than forced? I would argue that while a sonic game can be great without this element, this element is why the game is great, and breaking it creates a chore that the player has to endure to get to what they want! Classic sonic did this well. Sonic, tails, and knuckles were all alternate ways to play the game, without the player being required to play anything but as sonic. The special stages too! they were completely different from the rest of the game gameplay wise, but they were entirely optional. This is probably the one element that being ignored, is destroying sonic games. Unleashed would be better if were-hog mode was treated like classic game bonus stages. You could avoid them, but would be rewarded for doing them. You could play an entire game as just typical 3D sonic gamplay, and only playing as a were-hog when you choose to! Sonic adventure has this problem too, and while you say you don't mind the other characters mini-game-esque gameplay, It should be relegated to just that, a mini-game, but one that is optional! This one is hard to judge based on your standard of a great sonic game existing without the element, because the parts of the game that follow your elements and this one are great, while the other parts are sub-par. People love sonic adventure 1 because they don't think about playing as big the cat! Sonic adventure 2 is a high action exhilarating great game... as long as you don't think about playing the scavenger hunt, walk'n'shoot, and racecar forced levels. It's great that you only have to do them once to beat the game, and can replay whichever you like, but you are originally forced to do that! Sonic Heroes makes you switch up gameplay on the fly, and forces you into knuckles and tails style gameplay, even if you just want to play as sonic! The fact is, the parts of a great sonic game that *are* actually great, use this element in addition to your 4 listed elements. I'd argue that this is what fans *actually* mean when they complain that sonic has too many friends that draw the focus away from sonic. Again, I think most people don't understand what they want, because they don't want sonic's friends removed, they just don't want to be forced to play as them!
I love the boost gameplay, but I have the feeling it's a bit too easy to get a great amount of boost gage While you don't have a lot of opportunity to fill said boost gage, I'd like the boost games to take a more "Tony Hawk\SSX" approach by rewarding the player with little boost fule with many ocasions and longer combos leading to better rewards, making the levels kind of like, parts platforming, parts rithm acing game. Especially when grinding is a cool forme of automation but most of the time is just used as an infinit runner setpiece, I think you can make it like, a hiden and non obligatory Quick time event, You have no boost and some rails are ahead? Time to waste some time by griding slower and engaging in a manual trick combo to refill complitly the boost gage, once it's full, let Sonic lose his balance and get back in his fast grindig position, take a well timed jump and land on the higher more difficult but shorter path that require the boost to get to an hiden extra life, both rewarding for the skill, and hyper cool when done without failure or stops.
I'm in love with this content. really gives fact-based points, comparable to arin hanson's sequelitis. more videos like this man, you're doing great. I'm ready for sonic mania to sweep the fan base off its feet. to this day i re-play through sonic 3 & knuckles with genuine happiness; the game is lovely. seeing sonic mania as a revamped call to those classics in HD with new additions that don't drag the game from its purpose has me excited. Sonic 4 was odd in the way that it wanted to create a classic-esque feel to a modern title, but failed in its poor execution of mechanics as mentioned in your video. one would assume that a game like sonic mania wouldn't require as much work as a game like Sonic 4, or the 3D titles either. yet, look at all the praise sonic mania has already received! people are going bonkers because one of the most beloved video game characters is going back to his routes. this is what people wanted, and it's nice to see they are appreciative towards it. personally i want this to be the start of even MORE classic-style titles. cant be too difficult to come up with 2D levels. not nearly as difficult as 3D ones that introduce new gimmicks and mechanics along with it.
Always and pleasure to watch your videos, and I take great comfort in the fact that the guys working on Utopia are watching them too. Utopia can only get better.
The emphasis in Sonic games should not be on speed, it should be on exploration and platforming. Speed should only come in small bursts from time to time, like in Sonic 1. Sonic should be like a Mario game where Mario would sometimes ( not all the time ) run fast and go through a loop.
For me. One of your points is that the spectacle of the non skill required or minimal skill required parts of sonic games like escape from the city or the more modern sonic games takes away from the game especially with subsequent playthroughts is a problem. I understand what your saying but I think most people won't play through the game 20 times. I don't think that games should necesairily be balanced at the speedrunning community. Sure they should be taken into consideration but because most people don't play at that level a lot of people at the lower levels probably really enjoy those moments where control is taken away for a speeeeeeeeeeeeeeeed boost.
Came in here expecting this to be another misinformed opinion I've likely seen from the Sonic fanbase at some point in time. But this was pretty good instead, nice going dood.
For me,the boost games arent about earning your speed. Its about mantaining it. Thats were the skill celling enters: Its easy to press the boost button to gain speed,but the hard part is mantaining it.
In response to your comment about elements like spectacle only being a supplemental accessory, I'd argue that the element of spectacle in particular is just as integral as the games' more fundamental aspects, because Sonic's very conception was about putting on a show to draw the ire of passers by from the competition (specifically Mario, 16 bit war an' all that) It's the whole reason Sonic goes fast in the first place, going fast is cool, it just so happens that making Sonic with this novelty in mind came with some solid fundamentals to give it some substance. Characters as autonomous as Sonic pretty much already come with an intrinsic inclination to elicit oohs and aahs from their audience, think of the tagline "You will believe a man can fly", to the original Superman movie. Sonic is an escapist fantasy, It always has been, and what's the point of a fantasy if it's not in some way spectacular? Approaching Sonic from this angle doesn't distract from it's fundamentals, maybe in a worst case scenario such as in the story book games, but otherwise if anything it gives those fundamentals a sense of intent, instead of just being made to facilitate gameplay for gameplay's sake, which was never Sonic's bag to begin with. Otherwise, solid video as always.
sonic forces does at least uses the drill wispon to let players with a high enough skill to beat levels faster even if that skill level is not that high as i a slightly better than average sonic player can beat a level in the top 200 in forces on the ps4
I can't agree with you on that last point. Automation in MODERN Sonic Games is somewhat needed. I think that modern games have more of a spectacle than Classic and Dreamcast, so they need so effective set pieces. Yes, it gets old, but I think that it is needed in Sonic games nowadays,. I also can't agree that speed is a reward in Sonic. Not to mimic what was said in "Retro Rant:The Sonic Problem", but that can apply to any platformer. Sonic puts speed first, and THEN platforming, which is why I love the boost games and Adavance 2 so much. Therefore, I don't think it needs to be momentum based.
M -01 speed is a challenge in modern Sonic games. moment to moment stylish freerunning spectacle is the reward. what the modern games do better than the classics is use the spectacle as a carrot on a stick rather than a segmented part of the level. the games are usually thrilling to play as is but a lot of that is ruined by bumping into walls or what not. but that's why the ranking system comes in. if you want more smooth movement you need to put the effort into it, and in turn you start to do some pretty stylish things. it's like playing Devil May Cry. it uses the same carrot on a stick approach. combat is so stylish and the game tries it's best to let you know that you can make it even more stylish.
question: how would full analog control affect the gameplay? namely as in, tilt based speed input. I tested this out on unleashed & he can actually just walk instead of sprinting. perhaps that could be used as a way to maintain different speeds instead of a dedicated button for running or gradually building speed regardless of tilt?
This entire critique was fantastic! Not just based on being informative but also by having such an appealing style and presentation. You've just earned a subscriber!
even though I don't like the loss of physics in lost world I enjoyed the free platforming. I think freedom of movement should be another essential. the boost games lack this with restrictive level design and stiff control.
6:45 This. SEGA caused their own problems when they started advertising Sonic as "fast", and now that's all Sonic is known for. It's gotten to the point where people complain whenever a Sonic level has areas where you have to slow down and do some platforming, even though Sonic games are supposed to be platformers.
God forbid there is some platforming in a platformer. And if you don't like the slow platforming, learn the physics and exploit the level design and you'll skip it. Ever since Sonic 1 you could do that (see RetropolisZone's Sonic 1 review). It's a million times more satisfying to skip a large platforming section by your own skill and wits rather than just be dragged along for the ride.
TL; DR Don't like slow platforming in a Sonic game, then git gud scrub.
heaven forbid that there's fast paced platformers.
seriously though, Sonic never stop being a platformer. ever heard of a speed running platformer like Mirror's Edge? where the whole point is to go through level as smooth as possible without stopping in order to sell you on the freerunning spirit? Sonic is the exact same thing, granted with more arcady elements like stomping.
speedrunning as a platforming genre is growing more and more especially with the Indie scene. so why demonize Sonic for doing the same thing ahead of It's Time?
Thank you. This gotta go fast mantra has finally come back to bite Sega in the ass as now Sonic has gone from being known as an action platformer to a complete and broken speed orientated game icon that can't even work without some other mechanic there to compliment it. I've said time and time again Sonic went fast in the old days for hardware marketing. He went fast cos the Sega Genesis allowed him to. He went fast cos Mario didn't and it became a key selling point in all of their cheesy yet charming commercials. But in reality, the actual games were a lot more about rhythm and momentum-Keeping a steady flow of movement not just going ridiculously fast for the sake of it. It was ACTION, not just SPEED things like combat platforming and nice set pieces made Sonic but speed was like fanservice but now speed is the main force(don't get me wrong I don't hate that but Sonic has been whitewashed in people's minds. Now speed is all he's about which isn't accurate)
NGL it's also why people can't handle combat in sonic heroes/were hog cos it isn't fast even though Sonic has had combat before.
premydaremy A men
Sonic is about momentum based platforming.
"Even the boost games, which some fans errantly claim to be 'boost to win...'"
*Likes the video*
The Geek Critique *sees comment*
*instant like*
The boost is one of the best things to happen to sonic(other than the spindash). So when someone says it's bad I just laugh.
Blastoff Studios lel
The boost is a double edged sword really, definitely not one of the best things. On the one hand, you've got something that takes a good amount of skill to properly utilize, which fits in with the theme of the old games. You wanna beat a level in 2 minutes, you better get good at this and reduce your speed loss as much as you can. It also just lets you go really fast, which satisfies the guys that just want the spectacle.
On the other hand, you've now got a tool that effectively lets you ignore momentum because you always have it at the single touch of a button, whereas before you had to physically build up momentum and maintain it. You can ignore any mistakes you made because in an instant you're just zooming off again. You're mostly invincible during it so you can completely ignore enemies in your path instead of caring about them. You're moving so fast the level can't stop to offer you any platforming, which you know... Sonic was kinda born as, a platformer. Generations was good and Unleashed was basically ass because the former actually put in plenty of platforming moments, and the latter was all 'run run run do this quicktime event now run more.'
I won't say there's no fun to the boost but the boost is not the spindash. It's not one of the best things. If you like it though dood, have at it mang.
Dai Tian do you classify a platformer as something that's just being slow? there's so many ways to execute a platformer. the very basis is jumping and being launched. that's it.
the boost gameplay is about flow based platforming. it's not about jumping as much as it is about consistently moving. you're not stuck to just one usable action throughout the entirety of the game. you have an entire versatile moveset, varying depending from character to character, that you need to utilise properly. speed is a challenge that you're graded on. not a reward for repetitive play. it's the main point of the series. Not a feeling like an afterthought like the classics.
so calling it boost to win is ignoring the whole point of boosting. It's movement.
The low floor-high ceiling thing is something I've been thinking about a lot, especially in comparison to mario games. If you want to beat Super Mario Bros, you need to be very skilled. Enemies kill you in one or two hits, you have to jump on top of them, there's no way to just barrel through. Meanwhile in Sonic games, getting hit costs you your rings but you can pick them up again so you're almost invincible, you can hit enemies from any angle, and if you're rolling you don't even have to jump at them at all. Basically, Sonic games are easy as shit... IF you just want to clear the levels and see the credits. But the point of Sonic games has never been just to win, it's to be skilled enough to keep your momentum, move fast, and take faster, more challenging paths. The penalty for getting hit isn't dying, but it isn't just losing rings either. It stops you dead in your tracks, forcing you to get all your momentum again, something Mario never has to worry about.
beclark2001 But with the boost mechanic there isn't much skill needed to keep their speed because you get full speed with a press of a button and in most areas you NEED the boost to get through and you never lose it because it's based on rigs
beclark2001 what I'm saying is there isn't much skill based input from the player, but there could be a game that isn't all momentum based like sa1 or sa2, boost games feel very linear removing most or all exploration
Well yes, in the strictest sense movement speed is no longer the reward it used to be before they introduced the spindash. Nowadays more open and rewarding paths are behind more of a skill barrier than a speed barrier. Just like how you can skip the rising water section of chemical plant by being better at the game, so can you shave time and obstacles off your runs in the boost era by taking hidden pathways or chaining homing attacks to higher paths. Pure movement speed as a reward stopped being interesting after Sonic 1, so now you're rewarded for your skill with high, open pathways that allow you to beat the levels faster, among other things. Speed is still the reward, but it's intermediated by different pathways.
Fungo4 I never said that speed as a reward houldnt be the only thing, like I said it should be used effectively to make it a skillful use instead of the boost gameplay where that is near nonexistent
Acron why do people say the boost games are linear? Have you not played modern Seaside Hill? That place has paths everywhere.
A human being who can analyse and evaluate Sonic fairly, objectively and without bias or extreme hyperbole? Who can see the good and bad in everything instead of turning his nose up at the smallest issues? *WHY AREN'T THERE MORE PEOPLE LIKE YOU!?*
It's a dying race. We need to preserve them!
syweb2 I hunted them... I regret that...
The guy isn't as objective and fair as you think.
Rayan Mussa *11 months later* I assume it was an emotionally driven comment
I can't wait to see more of Utopia. It definitely ticks a lot of the boxes you've mentioned.
Hey everyone! I had a mistake in this video pointed out to me a couple of times, which is that Dimps actually made one more game after Sonic 4 Episode II: Sonic Lost World on the 3DS. Totally an oversight on my part, and thanks to those who reminded me!
Good on you for acknowledging this oversight but...
those games were terrible so I was fine with you ignoring them because even I forgot they existed until now.
I don't think it matters. The only things lost world 3d got right were the crafting, multiplayer, bosses, and first handheld 3d sonic.
My man 🙌🏻
Someone really needs to send this vid to Sonic Team.
14:11 Everytime I'm reminded of Sonic 4, I always just get annoyed. Dimps did a really great job with the Advance series so how could they have messed things up so badly?
BubbleButt TV probably the excuse of "classic physics can't work on a 3D engine"
Mikael Fernandes Sonic 4 wasn't 3D though
beclark2001 Sonic 4 wasn't a 3d *engine* either
Of course! The only reason the Classic physics can't be recreated in the Hedgehog engine is because it's already specialized for Modern Sonic gameplay.
I heard Iizuka said he wanted a different feel from the classic titles when co-developing Sonic 4 with Dimps. The rest is history.
Excellent analysis. I have been saying this about Sonic games for YEARS. Automation is way too overused in Modern Sonic games and shouldn't be used as a crutch anymore. I pray that Sonic Team looks at what Sonic Utopia is doing so that they can learn how to do Sonic properly in 3D. I'm not excited for Forces as much as I was before and that scares me
TyTheGuy Automatiom taking things directly out of your control and automating it. you do see there's a lot in the classics and Dreamcast era games just to be flashy and convince you that the games are about speed while you hold forward for 10 to 20 seconds with no variation.
however, stuff like that rarely happens in the modern games because you have an entire controller full of movement options and the game actively utilizes them. so how is this automation?
Samir Malik The Dreamcast era games did have a lot of automation but it was rarely in the classic games, what I'm getting at is that the Boost formula games overuse boosters to gain speed rather than physics based movement from the classic games.
Wow, you're more qualified to direct Sonic Team than Iizuka
That segment were you talk about the lack of momentum mechanics in Lost World and the skill level of the classic games was on point 👌
Great video as always, man. Personally, I'm waiting to see more of Sonic Utopia. Mr. Lange said that they're working on making the game more linear, and trying to fix the level design, as he's aware that the Green Hill Demo is too big and the player can easily get lost in it. Very curious to see where he and MurasakiFox take the project going forward.
Also, minor nitpick:
"Dimps have not developed another Sonic game since."
Not true, they developed the 3DS version of Lost World. Lost World 3DS was the last Sonic game they worked on.
gamelordabd You're absolutely right, thank you! I totally forgot LW 3DS was a thing lol
Those are not really Sonic games though, they are a mess.
SamVision lost world 3ds is in fact a sonic game
Still not sure how Dimps screwed up Sonic 4's design so much, yet demonstrated in the GBA era that they were capable of exercising the Classic Sonic formula with the Advance games (though those were a bit more speed-oriented).
PREACH, DUDE!
Sonic Robo Blast 2 is how Sonic games should be. It'd be cool to see an official Sonic game like it.
Always love the essay vidoes you post. Keep doing them, and we might see a change xD
Could not have said it better myself "literally". Hey, I know you got a lot more subscribers then me but I also made a video talking about sonic. I was explaining why many people were less excited for sonic forces then mania. I don't think I was able to explain very well, why the classic games were a good representation of sonic, like you did. Any ways, awesome video.
Tom Magenta sonic forces e3 gameplay footage hate, it's my most recent sonic video on my channel.
I'm unable to come up with a constructive and coherent comment about this vide, so I'll just say: I loved every single minute of it! Your analysis is spot on. You really do understand the fundamental elements which constructs a _good_ Sonic game, and this is the battle I've been waging against the mainstream Sonic community for almost a decade, which misunderstands the classics and completely miss the point on what makes a Sonic game good. So much so, that I felt the need to step out of my position as a developer to bring attention to the actual state of that so-called game that _dared_ to be named Sonic 4 when it was still in development back in the beginning of 2010.
Dimps made The 3DS version of Sonic Lost World
I’ve never played Sonic 4. However, I just saw sonic casually walk up that walk, where he would’ve fallen in the original games. It changed the narrative from “he’s so fast, that he can defy gravity and go up this wall” to “on this wall, gravity is horizontal, and a little bit downward to slow him down.”
I’ve been thinking, and I think that Shaymay’s “Speed, Platforming, *and* Exploration” is an extension of the first Element shown here. Put simply, those other two elements increase the amount of applications for momentum, thus making the game in question more about momentum.
i want lost worlds wall running to return its the only reason I go back and play that game so often
5:43 whoah!!!
7:13 The most savage fucking roast on youtube
16:00
Okay.. I never tried that sort of skill to pass the horrid chemical section..
Nice dude
This video encompasses what it took me three years of research to understand about Sonic. It's a great way to get someone caught up on how the *"serious"* fans think Sonic games should be made.
Don't mind me, I am waiting for an Monkey D comment.
that annoying guy whos in every sonic video and as a one piece profile pic?
Jsa Gaming yep
Oh no
That idiot blocked me.
I don't know why everyone complains about him, he seems alright to me.
OH SNAP, IM EARLY, BETTER MAKE A JOKE! (INSERT OBLIGATORY OVERUSED JOKE HERE)
4:17 Sorry dude but your spreading misinformation when you state Lost World doesn’t affect Sonic’s speed in different terrains.
You where literally stating this, whilst showcasing Desert Ruin’s which has sand lmao & Frozen Factory which allows Sonic to slide & skate, boosting his standard running speed.
Even Parkour does this if you run into a wall with enough speed & Spin Dash to further yourself, by giving yourself some much needed extra juice, to sustain the Parkour technique.
15:07 Dimps went on to create the Sonic Generations 3DS & Sonic Lost World 3DS.
Please stop lying would you.
It’s infuriating!
The very fact that the fanbase has a do and don't showes whats really wrong with them. *THEY'RE ALL FAKE*
is sonic utopia just like sonic lost world but a lot less Mario galaxy esque and without 2d stages,
"I can point to the classics that utilized little to no story"
Are you serious...? Those games were LOADED with lore, especially Sonic 3 & Knuckles. They just didn't shove dialogue-heavy cutscenes in front of you every seven minutes; taking an almost Metroid Prime approach before Metroid Prime was even a thing.
Not a very good way to start, if I'm being honest.
Lugbzurg For one, there is a distinct difference between story and narrative which I encourage you to research and discern the difference between, because S3&K does one extremely well and doesn't bother much with the other.
Secondly, little to none of that lore you refer to is actually contained within the Classics themselves, and a lot of that was retroactively included later on through Sonic Adventure and the Archie comics. Since you need to experience SUPPLEMENTAL material to discover this, you kind of just proved my point that story IS supplemental, not fundamental :)
TheKazeblade There is a lot of lore in the Japanese manuals though. They are quite big and is probably more detailed than the Adventure games
@@englishgiraffe2124 That's supplemental.
I would argue that even in the classics there is a fair share of automation and gaining instant speed aka boost panels, set pieces and the spindash. The only difference is that maintaining that speed was more key in those games, thats why I enjoy the boost formula mainly in sonic unleashed sure anyone can press a button down but try maintining that speed throughout adabat, not getting hit and getting a really good time, even though they have automation the real challenge is maintaining such a pace.
This should get more views.
I feel you severely exaggerated the automation with the loading screens part. It's really not that bad and I think it's clear people are overreacting to such minimal segments and are playing those sonic games for the wrong reasons. They're expecting a playstyle very different and are wanting too much control not realizing what makes those games so fun. It'd the spectacle and the sense of speed that makes those games so fun. They aren't bad and automation is what makes it so fun when used sparingly. I agree with what you said about classic Sonic but when it comes to anything 3D I feel like you understand so little that you struggle but still maintain the mindset of a classic fan that doesn't accept change. This is why people hate the games so much. It's people like you that want sonic to instead play liek classic instead if enjoying them for what they are and realizing they're fun in their own way. Lost world wasn't bad in any means in terms of gameplay. In fact they nailed it for the most part but you seem to believe in the fallacy that they should all follow one gameplay philosophy or style. That simply isn't true. And grading them all with one system is like me grading every Mario game the same way as the first super mario Bros. when in reality such a review system of grading is so inherently flawed that you end up in the horrid mindset all other games are bad because they aren't like the classics. I can't review every mario games with a system that was for Mario Bros, it simply doesn't work like that. It's idiotic in my opinion to treat every sonic game and compare it with one gameplay style. Sonic and the black knight gameplay wise wasn't half bad just different. I Can't review Mario sunshine and compare it to super mario world. You shouldn't compare sonic generations or even the black knight to sonic 3 or sonic 1. Those gameplay styles are very different and are enjoyed in their own way and people do not enjoy classics for the same reason as they do for the modern games. But you have yet to understand that my friend as you're too blinded by the classics to see that unfortunately.
This was the most concise and best-argued evaluation of Sonic's gameplay I've ever seen. Amazing stuff!
A little curious about your thoughts on Black Knight. Do you have a video on it? My take is that it (as well as Secret Rings and non-06 games prior to Boost) are more engaging since they don't have a mechanic eliminates enemies and levels in a single button press.
I agree with your principles but think Lost World was still a more engaging step even if a flawed one.
Secret Rings and Black Knight are totally fucked in terms of controls.
@@semvision have you played black knight?
HUZZAH FOR QUALITY!!!
I came here right after today's episode of Sonic Mania on Game Grumps.
Your argument on "boost to win" is so right, Bro. Is the Boost gameplay, there is momentum but it wasn't as focused as it should have been in modern games. Unleashed is a really good example of using the momentum from drifting or sliding and stomping, although it could just be the glitches.😆 At 4:40 you show a good example of what I'm talking about. I wanna see more of that.
i'd really love to know your overall opinions on the whole boost formula
Such an amazing essay, man. Kudos. Nothing warms my heart more than seeing a Sonic fan who truly understands what makes a great Sonic game tick. I cant think of a single point here that I disagree with. There is such a wide chasm of understanding between the different sects of fandom, but essays like this bring everything together in a way that’s easy to understand, granted you have played the games mentioned
Sonic Lost World
7:03 - 7:34 This is why everyone hates Sonic Advance 2 & pretty much the rest of the trilogy (less so 1). They get frustrated when their momentum is constantly interrupted, and it's usually a case that occurs when they don't test out different mechanics, tricks and techniques introduced in the games to avoid this and even build their momentum quicker (the Boost Mode mechanic from Advance 2 can be retained if the player jumps and continues to a different direction from the wall or obstacle that stops them moving, which get you building up speed quicker again in that Boost Mode)
I like your analyses (analysises? whatever) of Sonic. But, I never really think in depth about stuff like this. I usually recognize what I find "good" and "not good" about the Sonic games that I like. And mostly, I realize that the whole "skill ceiling" thing is something I never cared about mostly because of the way I play Sonic. I've always been more reactionary, taking things as they come, and reacting accordingly in order to achieve speed. I don't try to abuse shortcuts and stuff. As such, I think that's why I find myself way more leneant on Sonic's more recent ventures. Still, while watching your video essays make me feel just a tad stupid (not your fault), I think you offer an interesting look at Sonic as a whole.
I disagree on Forces, though. That game just makes me so happy. But whatevs, I get it.
You know what? You have just earned an enthusiastic subscriber today. You showcase things in a sound, fair manner. Never once have you come across as biased, judgmental, irate, or emotionally charged in any of your recent videos. Seriously, I think you might just be my favorite youtuber in recent years and I so hope you grow as a channel.
See, I grew up playing all kinds of Sonic games starting with Sonic Rush, Colors DS, and the 3 Classic Sonic games, then the more heavily 3D games like SA1 and 2, and the modern version of Rush's gameplay like Generations and Unleashed. I even played Lost World as well. There's potential in every Sonic gameplay style in my eyes. And I try my best to look at the positive aspects of those gameplay styles and their potential. You seem to do the same thing too and I'm happy to see somebody else approach the series in the same kind of versatility as I do. It's not about one thing or the other, but the combination of certain moving parts and elements that truly makes each Sonic game enjoyable.
People keep forgetting that the Sonic Team we have now is NOT the same Sonic Team that people remember fondly from a decade ago. Most of SEGA's Talent left due to the irreversible damage to the chain of command that was done, as a consequence they are now the Nintendo Team.
8:18 Gotta *Throw Sonic Team under the bus* fast amirite?
Seriously though, this video was great insight on the design mentality of the Sonic franchise.
In all fairness, "Sonic Chornicles: Dark Brotherhood" didn't really met its end because of bad reception or any other traditional reason, SEGA/Sonic Team/Bio Ware got a lawsuit on the ground that the Dark Brotherhood, main villain of this game, were a rip-off of the Dark Legion from the Sonic Archie Comic series. Ken Penders who create a bunch of characters in the Archie cannon was the one to sue them.
Spectacle elements via automation was also present in automation in the classics as well such as the Tubes in chemical plant, the Canons in Oil Ocean, triangle bumper hallways in Carnival Night, etc.
Then there is rolling which while momentum based, largely leaves the game playing itself after a single input. Loops in particular largely required so little momentum to overcome, that calling it an obstacle over spectacle primarily in function largely strikes me as disengenous.
Just wanted to give some more accurate perspective to the degree of which automation has existed and been integral to the series, and that while a problem when poorly used, isn't bad in of itself.
I think people forget that Dimps made Sonic Generations for the 3DS and in that game Classic Sonic's physics works like it did in the Classic Sonic games.
Also, to add on to the 'automation' part, have you noticed that every 3D Sonic game since Adventure has some sort of Dash Panel right before loops and steep hills? It almost makes me think the game's physics aren't, how should I say...confident enough to let you make that part on your own. For loops, it's a bit more understandable as people who have played fan games have trouble running on loops without falling off, but why steep walls? It's just something I noticed
unfortunately, only your first rule holds up to your preface
also, doesn't Lost World's wallrunning have vertical momentum (speed gradient based on intertia)?
I love this video.
The problem with most fans, is that they don't know what they want. These 4 things are actually what they want.
I would also add an element though, a main form of gameplay that is the core of the game, with all other forms being optional. While you like games like sonic unleashed, wouldn't it be better if were-sonic was an optional way to play the game, rather than forced?
I would argue that while a sonic game can be great without this element, this element is why the game is great, and breaking it creates a chore that the player has to endure to get to what they want!
Classic sonic did this well. Sonic, tails, and knuckles were all alternate ways to play the game, without the player being required to play anything but as sonic. The special stages too! they were completely different from the rest of the game gameplay wise, but they were entirely optional. This is probably the one element that being ignored, is destroying sonic games. Unleashed would be better if were-hog mode was treated like classic game bonus stages. You could avoid them, but would be rewarded for doing them. You could play an entire game as just typical 3D sonic gamplay, and only playing as a were-hog when you choose to!
Sonic adventure has this problem too, and while you say you don't mind the other characters mini-game-esque gameplay, It should be relegated to just that, a mini-game, but one that is optional!
This one is hard to judge based on your standard of a great sonic game existing without the element, because the parts of the game that follow your elements and this one are great, while the other parts are sub-par. People love sonic adventure 1 because they don't think about playing as big the cat! Sonic adventure 2 is a high action exhilarating great game... as long as you don't think about playing the scavenger hunt, walk'n'shoot, and racecar forced levels. It's great that you only have to do them once to beat the game, and can replay whichever you like, but you are originally forced to do that! Sonic Heroes makes you switch up gameplay on the fly, and forces you into knuckles and tails style gameplay, even if you just want to play as sonic!
The fact is, the parts of a great sonic game that *are* actually great, use this element in addition to your 4 listed elements.
I'd argue that this is what fans *actually* mean when they complain that sonic has too many friends that draw the focus away from sonic. Again, I think most people don't understand what they want, because they don't want sonic's friends removed, they just don't want to be forced to play as them!
I love the boost gameplay, but I have the feeling it's a bit too easy to get a great amount of boost gage
While you don't have a lot of opportunity to fill said boost gage, I'd like the boost games to take a more "Tony Hawk\SSX" approach by rewarding the player with little boost fule with many ocasions and longer combos leading to better rewards, making the levels kind of like, parts platforming, parts rithm
acing game. Especially when grinding is a cool forme of automation but most of the time is just used as an infinit runner setpiece, I think you can make it like, a hiden and non obligatory Quick time event, You have no boost and some rails are ahead? Time to waste some time by griding slower and engaging in a manual trick combo to refill complitly the boost gage, once it's full, let Sonic lose his balance and get back in his fast grindig position, take a well timed jump and land on the higher more difficult but shorter path that require the boost to get to an hiden extra life, both rewarding for the skill, and hyper cool when done without failure or stops.
I'm in love with this content. really gives fact-based points, comparable to arin hanson's sequelitis. more videos like this man, you're doing great. I'm ready for sonic mania to sweep the fan base off its feet. to this day i re-play through sonic 3 & knuckles with genuine happiness; the game is lovely. seeing sonic mania as a revamped call to those classics in HD with new additions that don't drag the game from its purpose has me excited. Sonic 4 was odd in the way that it wanted to create a classic-esque feel to a modern title, but failed in its poor execution of mechanics as mentioned in your video. one would assume that a game like sonic mania wouldn't require as much work as a game like Sonic 4, or the 3D titles either. yet, look at all the praise sonic mania has already received! people are going bonkers because one of the most beloved video game characters is going back to his routes. this is what people wanted, and it's nice to see they are appreciative towards it. personally i want this to be the start of even MORE classic-style titles. cant be too difficult to come up with 2D levels. not nearly as difficult as 3D ones that introduce new gimmicks and mechanics along with it.
I fucking love your videos
Always and pleasure to watch your videos, and I take great comfort in the fact that the guys working on Utopia are watching them too. Utopia can only get better.
The emphasis in Sonic games should not be on speed, it should be on exploration and platforming. Speed should only come in small bursts from time to time, like in Sonic 1. Sonic should be like a Mario game where Mario would sometimes ( not all the time ) run fast and go through a loop.
For me. One of your points is that the spectacle of the non skill required or minimal skill required parts of sonic games like escape from the city or the more modern sonic games takes away from the game especially with subsequent playthroughts is a problem. I understand what your saying but I think most people won't play through the game 20 times. I don't think that games should necesairily be balanced at the speedrunning community. Sure they should be taken into consideration but because most people don't play at that level a lot of people at the lower levels probably really enjoy those moments where control is taken away for a speeeeeeeeeeeeeeeed boost.
I feel like you low-key insulted Arin there and I'm not saying I don't like Arin, but that was hilarious.
Dimps made one final game after Sonic 4 Ep 2: Sonic Lost World on 3DS.
Came in here expecting this to be another misinformed opinion I've likely seen from the Sonic fanbase at some point in time. But this was pretty good instead, nice going dood.
While I would disagree with your point on automation (and the Sonic 4 part of it), your video was great !
about metropolis zone... if you are a skilled player then you're super sonic the whole level :)
7:52 burns
For me,the boost games arent about earning your speed. Its about mantaining it. Thats were the skill celling enters: Its easy to press the boost button to gain speed,but the hard part is mantaining it.
15:31
THANK YOU.
I don't like utopia. Except I like that momentum based modern sonic one. With the funny meme as a name
Any chance we can have a video on some of those more significant/better implemented supplementary tenets?
In response to your comment about elements like spectacle only being a supplemental accessory, I'd argue that the element of spectacle in particular is just as integral as the games' more fundamental aspects, because Sonic's very conception was about putting on a show to draw the ire of passers by from the competition (specifically Mario, 16 bit war an' all that) It's the whole reason Sonic goes fast in the first place, going fast is cool, it just so happens that making Sonic with this novelty in mind came with some solid fundamentals to give it some substance.
Characters as autonomous as Sonic pretty much already come with an intrinsic inclination to elicit oohs and aahs from their audience, think of the tagline "You will believe a man can fly", to the original Superman movie.
Sonic is an escapist fantasy, It always has been, and what's the point of a fantasy if it's not in some way spectacular?
Approaching Sonic from this angle doesn't distract from it's fundamentals, maybe in a worst case scenario such as in the story book games, but otherwise if anything it gives those fundamentals a sense of intent, instead of just being made to facilitate gameplay for gameplay's sake, which was never Sonic's bag to begin with.
Otherwise, solid video as always.
AAUGH MY PC WONT RUN SONIC ADVENTURE 2 CUS 120HZ RIP
sonic forces does at least uses the drill wispon to let players with a high enough skill to beat levels faster
even if that skill level is not that high as i a slightly better than average sonic player can beat a level in the top 200 in forces on the ps4
I agree with literally everything in this video. I didn't expect to.
Jeez, man. Are you in my head?
I like lost world. I don't think it should be compared. I think it's fun on its own
I'm definitely taking notes for my upcoming fanfic.
You are very very intelligent kaze. Why the fuck didn t Sega hire you yet
I love the automation a lot in Generations and unleashed but I understand... :(
I can't agree with you on that last point.
Automation in MODERN Sonic Games is somewhat needed. I think that modern games have more of a spectacle than Classic and Dreamcast, so they need so effective set pieces. Yes, it gets old, but I think that it is needed in Sonic games nowadays,.
I also can't agree that speed is a reward in Sonic. Not to mimic what was said in "Retro Rant:The Sonic Problem", but that can apply to any platformer. Sonic puts speed first, and THEN platforming, which is why I love the boost games and Adavance 2 so much. Therefore, I don't think it needs to be momentum based.
M -01 speed is a challenge in modern Sonic games. moment to moment stylish freerunning spectacle is the reward.
what the modern games do better than the classics is use the spectacle as a carrot on a stick rather than a segmented part of the level.
the games are usually thrilling to play as is but a lot of that is ruined by bumping into walls or what not. but that's why the ranking system comes in. if you want more smooth movement you need to put the effort into it, and in turn you start to do some pretty stylish things. it's like playing Devil May Cry. it uses the same carrot on a stick approach. combat is so stylish and the game tries it's best to let you know that you can make it even more stylish.
question: how would full analog control affect the gameplay? namely as in, tilt based speed input. I tested this out on unleashed & he can actually just walk instead of sprinting. perhaps that could be used as a way to maintain different speeds instead of a dedicated button for running or gradually building speed regardless of tilt?
the120cxx I can't do that naturally. I just lack this precision and patience.
The hard part isn't getting fast.
The hard part is *staying* fast.
Dude, you are FRIGGIN BRILLIANT!!!
Lets all send the link to @sonic_hedgehog from twitter to hopefully make them realise
Ice affects running in lost world yes?
One game series that executes all the key elements of a sonic game and does it well is a game series most wouldn't expect.
The SSX series.
I'm sorry, what?
A storyline that doesn't suck ass
Most of this is just your experience though.
"Mentions Sonic Utopia"
*Likes*
this was a great video. good job man!
15:06 AND I HOPE THEY NEVER DO AGAIN!
This is really well put together and your understanding of each game mechanic individually really shined through in this video. Excellent upload, man!
16:09 YA HEAR THAT BANDWAGONNERS?!? YA HEAR THAT?!?
you never talked about any of the Sonic Advance games. :/
No one cares about them.
Wrong.
The boost pad problem was present int he advance games, but for the mos tpart, they were mercifully used ot help sonci traverse long vertical bits
They are more or less the classic games but just with modern elements.
This entire critique was fantastic! Not just based on being informative but also by having such an appealing style and presentation. You've just earned a subscriber!
even though I don't like the loss of physics in lost world I enjoyed the free platforming. I think freedom of movement should be another essential. the boost games lack this with restrictive level design and stiff control.
If you want to play Lost World just play Mario Galaxy or 3D World.
SamVision I already 100%ed Mario galaxy. that game had an excellent use of physics BTW.
False....the set pieces in SA1 and 2 are meant as breaks for the player mentally while at the same time not breaking the flow of the level.
Good stuff as always! :)
You like doing ASMR huh.
This is like a sequelitis episode on sonic
I'm a Sonic fan that likes Egorapter...What am I
A contradiction.
Yur vids are great BTW 👍🏻