DEFINING ADVENTURE - The Adventure Formula
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- Опубліковано 4 лис 2017
- The five Sonic the Hedgehog titles categorized as the "Adventure Formula Titles" - Sonic Adventure, Sonic Adventure 2, Sonic Heroes, Shadow the Hedgehog and Sonic '06 differ from each other in significant ways; despite this, fans still associate them as a single gameplay era for the series. If it is a formula, what are the tenets on which it is built? Let's see if we can parse that out.
Thank you all for your patience with this video. I have been promising it since September. Those who have followed me on Twitter for a while will know my wife and I recently went through the single most painful experience I've ever known, hence my long absence. I hope that this video will make up for the wait.
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/ thekazeblade - Ігри
Don't forget that the Adventure era game also have:
1. Some form of character themes.
2. Fully 3D gameplay.
Reverof Enola just like infinite and shadow
I don't remember Shadow the Hedgehog introducing any new character themes, and wasn't Unleashed all 3D? I think 360 degrees of movement is what you're talking about.
Sean Fronteras uhh yeah All Hail shadow i am all of me, never turn back the dark theme of Shadow totally arent new Shadow Songs introduced in Shadow The Hedgehog and both day and night time stages of Unleashed are TOTALLY FULL 3D (day: 3D with 2D sections/ Night: full on 3D beat'em up-platformer)
P.s. for everyone else: pls dont take my reply srsly its pure sarcasm cos appearantly someone needed a Gaming History lesson with Sonic as the main topic bc they forgot over time 😑 BOI
That makes sense, I thought you meant themes for new characters.
unleashed had a lot of 2d sections through the boost gameplay, granted it wasn't as evident as sonic colors or generations, butit did had some 2d section, minimal but yeah
"provided Sonic Team is willing to put the time and effort into fixing it"
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Daniel Hirst *cue eggman's crazy laugh from sonic generations*
Sadly, this is true.
One thing that sets SA1 and SA2 apart from the other adventure based games is how more grounded the physics of speed were. The legs and movement animations felt like they matched your pace, as if you can feel sonics feet connecting with the ground with every fast step, as if there was grip. It felt real in that if sonic existed in the real world, that is how he would look and have to function to be fast, unlike in the other games where it just looks like his feet are moving fast, but too slow for the insane speed sonic is going. Heroes was the 1st to change the feel away to something more smooth and "locked" where you feel like you hit the speed cap very easily and there is no bobbing or "turbulence" to emphasis momentum. Basically felt more like driving a f-zero racer than running. I dare say there only has been one other sonic that nailed the sense of speed physics since, and that is sonic utopia a fan game.
I'm doing Adventure 2 through '06 next season, so I can't in good conscious watch this right now.
But _GAWD_, I want to.
we're still waiting for Other M though.
does that mean you'll also be playing, riders, rush, and....uh....sega tennis? i think...was that before 2006?
I see you Geek Critique. Also I really hope you do Forces as well, you're one of my favourite game critique channels and I really want to hear your thoughts!
I like this
The Geek Critique all you need to know is that the engine is pure ass
I feel like an “adventure” formula basically means a literal translation of the 2D gameplay of the classics into 3D. That’s what the original adventure games feel like.
Very nice analysis, an Adventure remake would be pretty nice, especially with the technical flaws of the original game. Polishing it up for the modern era and appealing to the fans of the Adventure formula games with a fresh new take of the game and leading up to a SA3 in a way, would be a smart move for Sega/Sonic Team. I've never thought hard on it, but the more I think of it, it really is an awesome concept that ought to happen someday. Hell, I feel like it would be the next best step after a game like Forces, with its tone and all.
Sonic should be Classic only
ikagura You’re being inconsiderate.
@@ikagura why don't you stay in the 90s then?
I think your primary issue is including Heroes and Shadow as "Adventure titles", and analyzing them to help define the formula. Most people consider those games to be their own separate thing.
thats because they are
They're separate from the Adventure games because they utilize very distinct, one-time gimmicks which don't build off their predecessor in anyway at all. Namely the teamplay mechanic in Heroes and the gunplay mechanic in Shadow. Sure, the Adventure games had their alternate playstyles which changed things up, but the core speed-based Sonic gameplay was always kept more traditional.
Not to mention, one of the main aspects of the Adventure formula is their sense of control. You know, when Sonic actually had a sense of weight, precision, and responsiveness to him, in addition to speed? Heroes and Shadow don't have that. If we can disqualify Rush as a classic Sonic game based on the vastly different style of movement, I think this is a valid argument for the Adventure games
Anyway, we shouldn't even be defining this. When people say Adventure Formula, they mean like Adventure 1 and 2. End of story. They don't mean like Heroes or Shadow. Some aren't even thinking of 06 (although many do consider that a "failed" adventure game). We're essentially putting words into their mouths here by including all these other games.
his points are utterly weak when he tried to define everything
cause all this points are wrong
Adventure games don't have emphasis on exploration, the adventure games allow for exploration thanks to the smooth control and movement of sonic, even in adventure 2and its restrictive linear level design, looking for stuff and explore to see what you can find, this being lifes, rings, shields, or animals for your chaos, all was intuitive and rewarding, not a single game after adventure rewards curiosity and exploration, maybe just 06
and good level design can do so much when control and movement is absolute garbage like in any boost game
then the multiple perspective thing is just such a miserable excuse to relate from heroes to 06 to the adventure style, like if only this 5 games and only 5 games have had a story told through multiple perspectives, what about sonic advance, sonic rush, sonic forces, with that logic this series should also be adventure games
when he said unleashed could be adventure but it wasn't because of this, was simply one of the dumbest things i ever heard
and the secondary gameplay supplemental to primary, this is just laughable, this point varies so much between the 5 games he used, this point varies so much between the 2 true adventure games, adventure 1 does this to some degree, and adventure 2 doesn't, the 3 gameplays share equal amount of time in A2. and just because knuckles moves similar to sonic, and the mechs trace back to gama and gamma plays with some momentum tracing back to sonic, its bullshit, he just made mess out of this video, all the games are their own separate thing, the only game that attempted the adventure formula was 06, but 06 did so many thing differently thatit was just unrecognizable.
he made a terrible job defining the adventure games, and its so annoying cause this could be so simple, but then use games tht have nothing to do with adventure style and messed everything up
While SA2 is my favorite 3D sonic game and I enjoy Adventure Style more than the Boost, and I believe that the perfect Sonic game is something achieved through a combination of the two, not one or the other, I do confess that I have been asking for Remakes of the original SA1 and SA2 for quite some time and greatly would appreciate one.
I think mixing the boost formula by having the full 360 3D control of Sonic with platforming, exploration, spindash and such with a certain way to boost could work. Perhaps you gain boost on a meter by keeping consistent speed and, with enough energy on the boost meter from consistent speed, can boost. Boosting is only allowed in one burst, but is really OP. The boost allows Sonic to go to areas he can't go to without the boost. With paths in the levels that cannot be reached without the boost, there is a risk/reward factor with if you want to go to a route with more rings and more so of a chance to boost again.
I totally agree with this. The fangame Sonic World, for example, integrated the stomp and drift into a game that otherwise played like Adventure and it worked wonderfully. Taking that philosophy further would probably the best course of action for the series.
The Boost being a resource as it currently is is largely fine. What would need to be changed is have it increase Sonic's speed Gradually over it's duration instead of be an on/off dynamic, which would make keeping you speed going more engaging without taking that agency away from the player like in older Adventure, and even Classic games.
Have its acceleration be tied to total rings as well, to reward perfect play, and have it largely interact with momentum the way it currently does so that the SpinDash can take the helm of momentum centered gameplay.
So basically, take what Sonic Advance 2 did and make it 3D?
ChaddyFantome I highly doubt there will be a remake of sa1 because on xbox one it is backwards compatible but maybe sa2
Nothing like a good old fashioned 5am Sonic analysis to start my day.
But yeah, as an Adventure fan, you pretty much covered all the points. I suspect that an Adventure 1/2 remake at least is on the horizon. One thing I’d like to add is maybe include/refine the parkour mechanics from Lost World. That could add a lot to spice up the level design.
And a ranking system/chao garden/multiplayer, but that goes without saying...
Ssaaame
All I care about is a full 3D game, controls that actually feel nice and let you move all around, actually being able to control the camera, and proper momentum based physics.
No boost, multiple paths, playstyles, serious story, rewarded for exploring.
I'm a little worried because of what happens at the end of Sonic Forces.
This isn't an actual spoiler but I need to say it.
SPOILERS!!!
At the end of Sonic Forces, Sonic tells Tails, "Don't worry Tails. I don't think that's the last we've seen of him," or something close. Judging by that statement, I don't think we done with Classic Sonic, sadly.
Seth Davis
And most likely Mania is gonna get sequels...
Classic Sonic is taking over.
I like Mania, but Classic in the Modern games is dumb af.
Hunter The Hedgehog Yep.
Seth Davis
Tell that to the Zeti and the Werehog...
Austin Reed
You think that the Werehog will come back ?
i like the werehog i would rather have him come back then classic sonic
I've seen a lot of people suggesting that a new Adventure-like game should incorporate boost elements in Sonic's gameplay as of late. I think that's inevitable. Think of areas like the orca from Emerald Coast, the last part of City Escape or Metal Harbor, the Mach Speed sections from 2006 and many others.
Boost mode from Advance 2/3 could mesh well, and it would even make sense with the Adventure-style games (apart from SA1)'s method of scoring. If you can maintain boost mode, you get more points and a higher time bonus, meaning maintaining high speeds would be another way of obtaining high ranks.
@@charliekahn4205 Which ties in quite nicely with some of the core tenants of the Classic era, considering the whole point of those games was mastering the platforming in each stage to maintain your speed and momentum. In a way, it would sorta be like the ultimate fusion between all three of the main styles of Sonic games.
Personally, I think a combination of the Adventure and Boost formulas will result in the perfect 3D Sonic formula. You see, when controlling Sonic the two essential elements of his control should be speed and platforming. In the Adventure games, due to the responsive controls, platforming as Sonic was very smooth, though when at high speeds the control becomes twitchy. The opposite is the latter for the Boost games, the low response control compensates for high speeds but sucks when platforming. In order to fix this, Sonic should be given 2 modes of movement, when not boosting Sonic's control will be very similar to Adventure, when boosting he will have control similar to the boost games. A few modifications should also be given to the boost, for example I think the boost should have a tighter turning radius, but it adjusts depending on the tightness of the turn. A shallow or regular turn will sustain the boost's inertia but a tighter turn will result in the boost losing inertia (the drift can be there as well, but it should be something like the Mania Special Stages like the tighter Sonic turns, Sonic will drift). Also the control should be tied to Sonic's momentum, going down hill let's you gain speed and going up hill makes you lose speed. This will also apply for the boost, for example maybe Sonic can't actually boost until he starts running and also when starting up the boost, it shouldn't get you to max speed, instead keeping up speed and gaining momentum down hills will let you go faster with the boost and the challenge is keeping up that speed. The rings should not only be the catalyst for charging up the boost gauge, but maybe the more rings you collect the faster your acceleration to top speed will be and maybe if you take a hit and lose your rings, you also lose all of your ring energy. Also there should be no dash panels and scripted sequences, to be honest with this gameplay going through loops and corkscrews would be fun. The level design should also be like a more condensed version of Sonic Utopia, being more open ended, wide and organic with many opportunities to find goodies or reach other areas through terrain with the momentum mechanics. As a few side stuff, the homing attack should also carry on forward after each attack to make it more satisfying to pull off. Also I think the Spin/Roll should replace the slide attack, which could also be away to gain much more momentum going down hills. If you've played Sonic Utopia, you'd know how satisfying to is to curl up into a ball and rocket off ramp shaped piece of terrain, launching you across the level. The parkour system should also be reimplemented, though not in the way Lost World did it with it's Price of Persia feel, instead it could be like the Spider Man games where Sonic can preserve his speed onto a wall with some sort of homing kick attack and run up and along it as long as he has momentum to pull it off.
Mikester_Paltoes
I have considered this as well.
Mikester_Paltoes We need a Sonic game that combines both the boost and adventure formula. With characters that play like Sonic but with their own unique abilities.
Mikester_Paltoes BOOSTVENTURE!
Dash pads aren't bad in of themselves really.
They are only bad when overused or used lazily.
If springs on walls in the Classics are fine, Dashpads should be so long as they are largely stage elements the player has to actively move towards for speed or redirection, just like springs in the Classics.
Also, I love your ideas overall and have deadass been suggesting something almost scarily identical!
I disagree with the roll needing to replace the Slide.
Sonic has enough rolling and spinning moves as is, and the Slide better and more variedly expresses elements of his character.
I also don't think the Boost needs to be affected by Momentum, but that is because I also think the SpinDash should come back for momentum related shenanigans.
The Boost should be like a special move you have a limited resource of but can skillfully replenish, but acts as a sort of ''cheat code'' or trump card, to bypass these things strategically.
As wonderful and thought-provoking as always. Welcome back Kaze. Don’t leave us again.
We need a Sonic game that combines both the adventure and boost formula. With characters that play like Sonic but with their own unique abilities.
Sonic Badass Kind of like 06 with the speed sections except it should be boost sections that you can control.
BlueCorp Yeah.
I'd say, making boost gameplay not so imba and automated af. For example - make a passive boost with a short cooldown (for getting initial momentum and avoiding boost-button-abuse) and secondary boost for breaking obstacles (enemy, destructable objects etc.) with, we say, 3+ shots with larger cooldown. I think, with some corrections - it will work.
I guess for me, what makes it hard to accept Unleashed as an Adventure-formula game despite it having multiple playstyles and a story that would fit right in with the Adventure games, is the way Sonic plays in the daytime stages. What I like about the Adventure games is how easy it is to control Sonic in a 3D environment. No matter how fast you are going, you can turn on a dime and move however you want. But in Unleashed, the faster you go, the more resistance there is, the more he controls like a car with mechanics like drifting or sidestepping because he can't actually turn under his own power. Some may like that because it feels more realistic to them, but it doesn't translate well to a game with platforming elements, however light they are or how fast the game is. This is a Sonic that was built from the ground up specifically to careen down long, straight corridors like a subway train, and not to do much else unless you slow the frak down, then you get some degree of control over where your jumps go. If you want to make precise jumps, you need to stop first. If you're going fast, don't even dream about it. It just feels sooooo different to play than any of the Adventure formula games, even Heroes. I miss that "flow" to the movement. The daytime stage controls just feel incredibly stiff to me, though they were improved to a degree in Colors and Generations, but not quite enough. There's also the 2D daytime sections which is where much, if not most of the platforming lies. Even the 3D sections tend to be built like you're blazing through a 2D section with the camera pulled behind Sonic instead of next to him. I just want a fully 3D gameplay style with controls built entirely for that.
"I guess for me, what makes it hard to accept Unleashed as an Adventure-formula game despite it having multiple playstyles and a story that would fit right in with the Adventure games, is the way Sonic plays in the daytime stages"
It is though...Just a different interpretation while following the basic formula. It ISNT Sonic Adventure 1 or 2 but a sub series of them. That's why its called "World Adventure". It uses very similar design choices from the Adventure and ends up making an amalgamation of many different sonic games at the same time.
"But in Unleashed, the faster you go, the more resistance there is, the more he controls like a car with mechanics like drifting or sidestepping because he can't actually turn under his own power. Some may like that because it feels more realistic to them, but it doesn't translate well to a game with platforming elements, however light they are or how fast the game is"
It's based off of real physics(Sonic games are all based off certain physics to a degree).
Despite Sonic not turning as smoothly, that's what makes his gameplay so skillfull. In fact, the more you learn to master Sonic the more you'll realize how he's a lot more fluid than you think.
ua-cam.com/video/ANMNDTPeyMg/v-deo.html
"This is a Sonic that was built from the ground up specifically to careen down long, straight corridors like a subway train, and not to do much else unless you slow the frak down, then you get some degree of control over where your jumps go. If you want to make precise jumps, you need to stop first."
Not necessarily true. In many Sonic games(the classics too) there are a lot of moments where the game slows you down for a platforming section before you move back on speeding down the path. Some moments like Dragons Road Act 1 or on the outside parts of flying battery do something where it gives you the choice of either slowing down or taking risk(ala spin dash or Boost jumping across the bottomless pits).
Sonic was built for speed like a car but he's also an anthropomorphic creature:P
Which lets him do stuff like this:
ua-cam.com/video/O3b5k6DdMVM/v-deo.html
(aside from the glitches)
"There's also the 2D daytime sections which is where much, if not most of the platforming lies."
Hmm..Sorta..It's a little bit like 55/45 when looking at the ratio of 2D/3D platforming segments in Unleashed.
"It is though...Just a different interpretation while following the basic formula. It ISNT Sonic Adventure 1 or 2 but a sub series of them. That's why its called "World Adventure". It uses very similar design choices from the Adventure and ends up making an amalgamation of many different sonic games at the same time."
For me, what separates the Adventure formula games from the rest of the series (gameplay wise) is the emphasis on efficiently navigating completely 3d environments. Those were 3D games. This contributes in part to how I feel about the controls.
"It's based off of real physics(Sonic games are all based off certain physics to a degree).
Despite Sonic not turning as smoothly, that's what makes his gameplay so skillfull. In fact, the more you learn to master Sonic the more you'll realize how he's a lot more fluid than you think."
I know. I've played through some of the daytime stages hundreds of times. I get how the controls work. I'm still not satisfied, and I'll probably never be. I get it working to a degree, but the physics of the 2D games are different than Unleashed's physics. The classic games encourage you to make use of the environment, using slopes and halfpipes to gain speed. You do lose control a little bit, but this is easier to justify in a 2D space, and what works better for a 3D environment may be different. I think the resistance that comes with going faster CAN work (it generally does in Sonic Utopia, at least turning is still smooth enough that you don't need a side step or drift button) there's just something about how it happens in Unleashed that's stifling and it shouldn't be a surprise that I find it more enjoyable to be able to control my direction like in Adventure. It just depends on how much of a focus there is on platforming, on making movements more complicated than just going straight ahead. In my view, the controls influence how the levels turn out. The classic games are built around how that Sonic moves. The Adventure games are built around how that Sonic moves, and the Unleashed-so on games are built around how Sonic moves in those, and the moments where he's most at home are on a road.
"Not necessarily true. In many Sonic games(the classics too) there are a lot of moments where the game slows you down for a platforming section before you move back on speeding down the path."
Again, this is stuff I already know and it sounds solid on paper but I just don't appreciate how it was done in Unleashed. I find the amount of platforming bits in some of the modern stages in Generations to be a more even, consistent mix, and the controls were tweaked enough for breezily traversing those sections to be more fun for it. The platforming parts in the daytime stages are nice, but they're more sparse and... simply put, I want more throughout the stage, like in Modern Sky Sancutary or Seaside Hill.
" I find the amount of platforming bits in some of the modern stages in Generations to be a more even, consistent mix, and the controls were tweaked enough for breezily traversing those sections to be more fun for it."
Generations feels too conflicting with the platforming in my perspective. It doesn't have that feel of naturalism in this game, more so due to all of the 2D sections despite classic Sonic already there and that fact The only thing I fully appreciate when it came to the boost gameplay were the fixed button mapping and Seaside Hill. The physics of Generations are disappointingly worse so It's not as fun to speed run(plus there isn't any sense of challenge). The platforming was decent but all it added was more to it, not let the stages have a cohesive transition. Seaside Hill is a good example of having that sense of flow yet freedom within it's design.
"The classic games encourage you to make use of the environment, using slopes and halfpipes to gain speed. You do lose control a little bit, but this is easier to justify in a 2D space, and what works better for a 3D environment may be different"
Yes. The classic games had more emphasis on that(if we're getting technical, Sonic 1). A key to Yuji Naka's philosophy when starting off with Sonic. I personally would love to see a transition from this to 3D. I particularly do find enjoyment in World Adventure for the very reason of using speed , abilities and making use of the overall level design to become more effective at speedrunning through the game. I can understand your preference for an approach that doesn't pertain around World Adventure.
"I know. I've played through some of the daytime stages hundreds of times. I get how the controls work. I'm still not satisfied, and I'll probably never be. I get it working to a degree, but the physics of the 2D games are different than Unleashed's physics. The classic games encourage you to make use of the environment, using slopes and halfpipes to gain speed. You do lose control a little bit, but this is easier to justify in a 2D space, and what works better for a 3D environment may be different."
I guess it depends on how you want Sonic to be. I don't care that games deviate from the physics of classic Sonic(Mario Sunshine to Mario Galaxy is a good example) That is why makes him very special more than any other platformer I've encountered. Shifting the the formulaic equation of speed, mechanics and gravity even just a little, you'll get a completely different Sonic game just based on the slight change in his physics.
The Classic games(Sonic 2 and 3k respectively)have to rely more on the environment to gain "top speed". Gaining speed in both Sonic 2 and Sonic 3 is as easy as revving up a few times to get close to the same speed as the red horizontal spring. Such a great feeling.
"For me, what separates the Adventure formula games from the rest of the series (gameplay wise) is the emphasis on efficiently navigating completely 3D environments. Those were 3D games"
That is why I expressed it was a *sub series*(as was stated by Hashimoto) and not apart of the mainline Adventure games. Gameplay wise, it's similar to Adventure 2 except larger levels and more exploration. A basic description mind you, but there are similarities(shouldn't be surprisingly considering the programmer of Adventure 2 was directing Unleashed).
The navigation in the Adventure titles never really felt fleshed out. Adventure 1 especially is guilty of throwing in 3D environment for Sonic to effectively run around but the level design around that was far to inspired from the likes of Mario. The controls of Adventure is close to how I would want 3D sonic to work but I never found the Adventure games realized in it's full potential. That is why games like Heroes, Shadow(even that game) World Adventure and Generations felt like 3D titles that gave Sonic the right control to compliment the level design in their own retrospective games.
the Kazeblade messed up to be honest
he messed up from the moment that he put 5 supposed adventure games there, which is just false, there are only 2 adventure titles, adventure 1 and adventure 2, and no, not just because of their name
the reasons he used to justify from heroes to 06 as adventure formula games are weak as hell
starting with:
"an emphasis on exploration", he is right on this but how he justified it is completely backwards, mainly his points were talking about the level design of the games, without talking about the control design of the characters(when this is the most defining trait of the adventure games that separate them from the rest). he said that the adventure games have linear level design that doesn't allow for much exploration, while the boost games have a more open level design. and while this is true to some degree, the adventure games are still the ones that allow for much better exploration. this is where the control design and overall movement of the characters comes to play. besides the fact that generations which is the game that has more paths to take, the level design can be summed up as 3 linear paths you have to take really fast. this isn't by any means an open level design.
While the boost games have better level design(at times). whats the point of good level design when the control for exploring it is just garbage? the boost games control scheme allow for one thing and one thing only: "going forward really fast" from unleashed all the way to forces this is the main problem, you are damned if you don't take the level fast your damned for not using the boost, trying to explore a boost game is just playing the game wrong. this is why the treasure hunt for the moon medals in unleashed is so infamous. cause the control to do that is just awfull, and it hasn't gotten much better ever since.
I talked about the boost lack of exploration through the character movement and control, Now to the wrongly called adventure games.
heroes and shadow have practically the same control and movement, with shadow even worse, this 2 games sacrificed control for more speed, which is something that i have never appreciated, the control is very slippery and the movement is very "runing on ice" physics. now with the level design, in Heroes yes its linear and longer but the control interfieres more to do the exploration so in this game, exploration is less emphasized because the control gets very intrusive, (still better than the boost games tho), it encourages you to go forward for the most part. in shadow the level design was open but confusing, with little things to make it stand, the level designs are confusing and uninspired, sometimes the levels could be complete mazes and with the control from heroes but even worse, exploring is just awfull, for me shadow is the worst 3d sonic game so far. and with 06 the control for exploring is actually much better, but it sacrificed all the speed the character had, making a 180 degree in control and movement making it too sensitive when turning and not having nearly enough speed to be worth a damn, and the level design is actually very open an cool to explore which is something i can appreciate, but the control again interfiers because it makes sonic to damn slow, and his movement too sensitive that it makes every step you take a dangerous situation.
its not about having an emphasis on exploration, is just allowing for some exploration at all. and the first 2 adventure games are the only games that allow for this. heroes and 06 kinda tried and to some extend they did put in exploration but not even remotely close to how good that was in both adventure games. because even if the levels are very linear, the game control allows you to slow down and look for stuff, break crates, and find some extra lifes ring, animals for your chaos and your shields. the adventure games allow you take the level at your own pace, something that not a single 3D game has ever done after.
the "story told through multiple different narrative perspectives"
this is singlehandedly the most lazy excuse to relate heroes, and 06 to the adventure formula, (and now even shadow? aright i'll roll.) like if this 5 games are the only ones in the whole series that ever used this trait as a design element.
this is just a story telling element that its just used to have multiple playable characters with different abilitys and/or to extend runtime of the game. it really has nothing to do with the chore design of the games since this trait can be used in any game if its decided like that.
if this stupidity of "story told through multiple perspectives" was only a trait of the adventure formula games, games like the sonic advanced series, or the sonic rush series would be adventure games, which they are obviously not, the rush series are more of a full 2d boost game, and advance goes more with the classic elements, heck even mania and 3 and knuckles would be adventure games if this statement was true, sonic forces which is oficially a boost game would be an adventure game aswell.
This also ties with unleashed but in reverse, Acting like unleashed isn't an adventure formula game just because it doesn't have a multiple perspective ignoring the fact that the daytime stages are completely designed around the boost, you know like the other boost games, its just dumb. It isn't an adventure game thats obvious, but not because of that, c'mon.
"Secondary gameplay remains supplemental to primary gameplay"
this is just completely wrong again, because throught all 5 games he (wrongly) put as adventure games, this varies a lot, with only adventure 1 and heroes and even shadow being the games that pull this trait accurately,
a) Adventure 1 has sonic playing through 9 levels, while the rest of characters play 6,5,4,,4,3 and then you have tails who play very similar to sonic making 15 stages to the others that play something different from each other.
b) Adventure 2 looses this focus by making by making the primary gameplay a freaking 3rd of the game, while in the others you have a broken treasure hunt that can open a lot of annoyance and mech shooter that is just as bad as it was in adventure 1, could be even worse
c) Heroes has one primary gameplay through the whole game, since all the teams play similar, but with some changes that made each team distinct from each other, there is really no suplemental gameplay in heroes, its all designed around the tag team.
d) Shadow has again only one gameplay style there is no suplemental gameplay
e) 06, primary gameplay is sonic i think (heck the fact that i'm not even sure just shows unaccurate this trait is), but it still is 1/3 of the game and then you play as shadow who is sort of similar but not really and silver which is just something completely unrecognizable from the "primary gameplay".
so how can this "supplemental" thing be a trait from "the adventure formula" games when among this 5 games alone this varies so much, heck this varies a lot from the 2 true adventure games.
in any case this is more accurate to the boost formula since Colors doesn't have a supplemental gameplay style, it has gimicks, and to Forces since the OC plays very much like modern sonic.
Kazeblade made a terrible job defining the adventure formula here and instead just made it more confusing than it deserved to be, if you want a much more accurate video defining the adventure formula, i suggest checking Em. Bani' video called "adventure vs boost gameplay a sonic diatribe"
Sonic should be fully 2D
I gotta say, I've been watching analytical Adventure videos from intelligent fans like you and they all leave me feeling optimistic that the formula has a strong chance of resurfacing. We need to move on from the cynicism that's been plaguing this franchise for too long. The fact that Iizuka now sees that more and more people want a new Adventure game is a good sign. Thanks, KazeBlade, you keep being you.
One point about the Adventure formula that is predominant in SA1 and in Sonic/Shadow’s stages in SA2 is how speed is earned. Since SA1 was essentially a 3D Classic Sonic game, it gave us things like momentum and exploration. If you didn’t want to explore, you would just go on. Just like the Classic games.
Scripts, dashpads and a button that grants instant top speed is hardly earning it.
@@snakey888 It was a first attempt, on a new engine, on new hardware, with unreliable physics and no time to test the controls, so the game was essentially held together with duct tape.
@@snakey888 Downward Hills, springs that propel you, and an ability that can just be revved up isn't much different.
Sure there were moments when the game just wanted you to go fast like Speed highway, but there's still a challenge to even that (and let's not forget stages like chemical plant zone).
I don't want to argue which is more pure, because that doesn't really matter.
The reason Nostalgia does not bother me in Mania is because you have to make sure the game is good. Make sure your game is good also if you have a crappy game with a bunch of nostalgic lines of old in it it looks like you're using the nostalgia to keep the game afloat but if you have a good that happens to have nostalgic lines or setpieces in situations in it it looks like it's just using it as a topping not using the nostalgia as the sole means of survival I just wish game developers would learn that.
Plus, I'd also like to think of Sonic Unleashed as a sort of transition game for the series. As in a game that starts a new era but still retains a few elements from the previous similar to Sonic Adventure.
I also consider 06 to be more of a Sonic Adventure remake than the real SA3.
Even if Sonic Colors was the game that brought me back into the series, and I do generally prefer the boost games over the early 3D games, I must say, I really, would like an Adventure-type game done right. I would love a modern take on that gameplay, only this time, I would really apreciate if the games were more functional, I can't count how many times I've went back to one of these 5 games and had a death happen on account of a homing attack that just won't work if you do it to early, and dosen't have a lock-on reticle to indicate when you should use it. I really like games like SA1 and 2, I kinda like Heroes and Shadow(though that's probably becuase Shadow was and-despite what they did in to his character in his own game-still is my favorite Sonic character), and while I don't hate 06, I'm mostly just indifferent to it(but I do kind of like it).
Adventure 1 has a lot more exploration elements then you'd think. Sonic's spindash can be used to bypass good chunks of nearly every level he's in, and Tails can fly over the majority of most of his stages outside of Ice Cap. I somewhat disagree with your use of Knuckles in regards to exploration in SA2, however. While it's true that his levels are quite broad and can be tackled in a verity of ways, the fact that you can only organically find one emerald piece at a time linearizes the stages in a horrendous fashion. Again, while it is true that you can find these pieces without using the radar, it's highly unlikely that you'll do so unless you stumble into one that's just floating out in the open. In general, SA2 doesn't reward you all that much for exploring. There's certain portions that reward you for clever use of Sonic's spindash ala SA1, but it's somewhat of an oddity. In an attempt to streamline what worked in SA1, they overall created a far more linear environment that tramples on several aspects of Sonic Adventure's design.
Edit: Sonic 06 also has some of this in its gem system for Sonic, and certain aspects of Silver's gameplay can be manipulated to broach a task in any way you please. With Silver, you're given a few different ways to defeat your enemies that don't involve hurling objects in your vicinity at them, and Sonic's gems allow him to outright skip entire segments of his levels. It's entirely possible to not only bypass Silver in Kingdom Valley, but to complete his segment of the stage with the sky gem.
SA2 rewards you plenty with exploration. In fact, it has more branching paths BECAUSE it is more linear. While SA1's levels are more open and spacious, this largely limits how many branching paths it can actually integrate cohesively into its level structure.
Additionally, SA2 has plenty of goodies hidden in nooks and crannies for you to find. They just aren't as out of the way as in SA1.
Final Rush and Sky Rail are particularly big examples of this, allowing you to jump through entire sections to land on background elements to reach otherwise unreachable areas. SA2 simply encourages playing through the level more via it's ranking system, leading people to ignore it's more explorative elements.
Others include the upgrade in every stage, and the FindTheLostChao missions for every stage.
As for treasure Hunting, I HIGHLY disagree. SA2 Treasure hunting actually not only rewards you MORE for Exploration than SA1, but REQUIRES it.
The radar in SA2 exists along with it's hint system and more refined level design to create a far more robust treasure hunting experience.
Because the radar only tracks 1 shard, the hint system can be more involved than a glowing orb simply telling you where to go at all times.
In SA1, Treasure hunting actually robbed all the engagement out of exploring, because you weren't actually doing any, just following blips and glowy balls where they told you to go.
In SA2, the hint system and more distinct level set pieces and geometry along with the radar encourage learning the ins and outs of the stage in order to become familiar with them, and learn to recognize set pieces and patterns in the emeralds behavior and placement.
While a good deal of people don't like the Treasure Hunting to begin with, and thus gravitate to SA1's for being quick and painless, to call them better, more involved and more explorative to me comes off as rather short sighted.
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nO fOoD oR mOvIeS? i'M oUtTa HeRE!
I'm not sure why Heroes and Shadow the Hedgehog are dubbed "Adventure Formula Titles". That seems extremely flawed.
i know right there are only 2 adventure games, and not just because the names alone
this guy just made everything all the more confusing
@@Rex67Diego9 I'd consider 06 to kinda be an adventure game, but adventure 1 and 2 are the main ones.
@@louiepikmin3184 yeah adventure 2 is a failed attempt at the adventure formula. but thats why i don't consider it that, cause it failed.
This is very informative! And yea, I really want a remake of Sonic Adventure. Just get someone other than Sonic Team to do it cause Sonic 4 (which was co-developed by Sonic Team and Dimps) told me that they don't know **** when it comes to understanding what people like about gameplay styles.
4:26 you forgot the Ratchet & Clank remake.
I'm seriously curious what Iizuka's idea of a sonic game is, forces seem to imply that a sonic game is about fighting against oppression and to save the world
I've always felt as though the Adventure Formula was the gateway to potential of 3D Sonic and that the Boost Gameplay was just getting in the way of that. This video makes those opinions with me even stronger, considering how Forces has fared in the gameplay department. And it honestly comes down to Sonic Team's willingness to go back to it and see what exactly the Adventure Formula's flaws were and how they can fix them. I mean, the fact that they went back to the Colors style of gameplay shouldn't mean it's impossible for them to attempt Adventure again. Especially considering how Iizuka himself must know at this point thats what the fans want. Even though he doesn't want to sacrifice "advancing the series" for pleasing the fans, he should ask himself if Forces really went out of it's way to advance the series much at all and what exactly the Adventure Formula could do for Sonic's future.
Monkey D. "Straw Hat" Luffy personally I feel that boost gameplay is better than the adventure formula
Da Third Echo
To each is own.
Monkey D. "Straw Hat" Luffy But Generations has way more exploration than SA2.
Sonic Badass SA1 windy vallay (beta) is wayy bigger than seaside hill act 2. let's be straight only reason why some of SA1 and SA2 was linear is due to the dreamcast hardware limitations.
Also even so it were only on SA1 and SA2 Chao Garden have to come back since it gives more interest for exploring and finding animals for the chaos and makes replaying the level more rewarding that the Red Coins.
you had an outstanding thesis thank you for this video,keep it up kazeblade! 👍
I really like the essay style of this video. I am subbing and hope to see more!
In my opinion, the TRUE adventure formula is a platformer taking RPG elements, but not the same as a Metroidvania.
And in some extend, Sonic Unleashed is like a transition between adventure and boost formulas, due to the fact that it has villages and expanded hub worlds like SADX does.
If there is going to be an Adventure 3, Sega would most likely screw it up and rush the developers to get the game out for the holiday season.
James Williams They would rush in terms of content but they've learned to make things polished since 06.
BlueCorp This has been the case even before Sonic 06 and Sonic Boom Rise of Lyric proved that Sega hasn't learned anything when it comes to rushing the developers to get the game out even after Sonic 06.
James Williams You obviously don't know what actually happened to Sonic Boom.
James Williams Sonic Boom failed because The developers weren't told what system the game would be for so they used an engine which would work on The Xbox or the Play Station. when it was revealed to be for Wii-u the developers tried to make it work but the engine was incompatible. furthermore The show writers came on and most of the game was scrapped eventually resulting with the scrap heap that was Sonic Boom.
James Williams but 06 already released
If SEGA goes back to the Adventure Open-World style, then I bet you now they'll be back to the big leagues (Or at least make the boost games less linear, and a little longer).
Adventure s just as linier
No, games like Sonic Generations and Sonic Adventure 2 weren't linear at all. (at least to me)
To be fair a lot of the earlier stage designs in Adventure 1 fit the exploration nature people associate with the games, and were even "Massive levels" in their own right. Of course the easy one to cite would be Wind Valley, which is so long that the entire section could have been its own level without the prior two level set ups, but even looking at the second part of speed highway you can see some elements of this. Its not exactly massive but it has a lot more going on that the final did, with an entire upper or middle path running through the level giving you much more to do than just speed through this tiny part of the city, which honestly felt kind of out of place or tacked on imo.
As for 06, couldnt agree more. It honestly has some of the more interesting level designs the series has to date, and while the style is a bit off the level themes are again, some of the most interesting to date. Infiltrating a base in the snowy mountains, chasing down a train with high speed action, running through a city thats collapsing all around you, even aquatic base which is arguably the weakest had some potential. Its just a shame that the game never fully utalized it by say having the second part of White Acropolis be in eggmans base, or actual underwater sections in Aquatic Base where you need to run through the underwater sections to reach the next part of the base, ultimatly making it feel more like an enviornment than corridors, like it currently does.
A few things I disagree on. One is the story. In terms of the same basic tenants like multiple perspectives, Unleashed did abandon that aspect of the Adventure formula. However as far as presentation and tone, it did REFINE the style of Adventures story! It wasn't trying to be like a Mario game like Lost World and it wasn't trying to be overly hardcore like 06. It was light but with an edge and hint of a darker element around the corner. And that phrase is what most great Sonic games have in common as far as storyline. It looks nice at first and then moves on to darker corners, giving a strange realism to the world you are running through. It's magical in that way. Unleashed is heavily inspired by the Adventure games through and through, which is why I find myself loving it every times I play it.
The Adventure games have core principles that are very clear cut. They have the story style I mentioned earlier, multiple perspectives, gameplay styles that either follow Sonics game style as a base, or a different style that lends itself to the style and tone of the games world and story. And in respect, those side gameplay need to be refined and perfected, much like how Nintendo polishes their new gameplay elements in Mario (like the Galaxy gameplay and Fludd mechanics in Sunshine, you have to make what you're doing different GOOD and fun! It's that simple!).
This is what most Sonic Adventure fans want and it's been this straightforward for a while. It's the rise of UA-camrs and other voices that overly complicate what makes a good Sonic game or how it works that makes these things a bit vague. And I love your analysis and agree very mich with it. However I think you're looking a little too deeply and foggily on it. Thanks for the analysis and keep up the good work.
I enjoy your Sonic videos, but something I could never get behind was calling anything after Sonic Adventure 2 "Adventure" games. Starting with Sonic Heroes, the feel of the controls changed drastically, and so did the philosophy of the design (Needing multiple hits to kill enemies, level design etc.). I'm more inclined to say that the games following Adventure 2 but preceding Unleashed are a different era of Sonic entirely. It's not like when something is made has anything to do with where it fits in, right? We don't say Secret Rings and Black Knight are the same as Unleashed or Colors do we? They're different ideas and philosophies.
When I say I'd like to see another "Adventure" style game, I do not have Heroes, Shadow, and 06 in mind, and I'm pretty sure most people feel the same way. I'm saying I'd like to see Sonic have good control once again. I hate how he feels like I'm controlling a 2 ton car in the more recent games. It looks cool to move fast, but it's not that fun to control. To be honest, I wish they'd make an Adventure style game where you only play in Sonic style levels. In SA1 and 2, the only levels I really enjoy playing are the Sonic, Tails, and Shadow stages. Everything else is mediocre at best, unfortunately. But those Sonic levels still hold up well if you ask me. We can talk all day about whether the Adventure games designed their levels properly, but what's important to me is that it felt GOOD to control Sonic/Tails/Shadow through them. That's all I really want when I bring up the Adventure formula. That, and Chaos would be nice to have back for extra game content. :)
Good stuff! I pretty much have to agree with everything you said. To sum it up, I think physics and storytelling are the specific aspects of the Adventure series that uniquely defined them and made them stand out so much to the gamers that support the Adventure formula so much.
While many people are clamoring for a Sonic Adventure 3, I have another suggestion... How about a game that not only takes a lot of the good elements from the Sonic Adventure games, but also adds some sensibilities from the boost Sonic games? Fark The Electric Jester demo already does this, while improving on the physics present in the Adventure games (thanks to LakeFaperds' custom made HedgePhysics engine).
forums.sonicretro.org/index.php?showtopic=36171
Not enough? How about add some elements from Megaman X and Kirby, with lots of powerups scattered around, encouraging players to explore their surroundings... Still not satisfied? Fuck it. Throw in a fast paced stylish beat 'em up in there too.
I know I'm shilling for the Demo LakeFeperd made, but goddamn the potential for it is amazing. I featured the game on my channel. I speedrun it, pushing the game to its limits. It's like I have seen Jesus Christ in the flesh. It's janky on a technical level, but there is so much one person can do by himself. And even still, LakeFeperd has done an amazing job. :)
Marius Urucu Sooooooooo, what Sonic Boom was going to be?
Feels like the opening paragraph to a thesis. Which makes me kinda expect more next year..
You should tweet some of your videos to Sonic Team. You make a lot of fair, strong, and honest points that should be greatly appreciated and valued. Sonic Team needs to hear this kind of stuff.
Sonic Team isn't easy to access, they don't use UA-cam, they don't read the blogs on Sonic Sites like Sonic News Network. They only use Twitter or some obscure site that less than 1% of the fanbase even knows of.
The lack of a Chao garden mobile app is bad business. Ignoring adventure fans is bad business
I would love to see a 3d sonic game with the sonic advance 2 boosting mechanics. Those mechanics made that game so thrilling and addictive to play over and over again.
I just want the slower more momentum-based Sonic gameplay, I don't care much for the other characters or the Chao Garden.
amen
at 11:20 in, our boy finally begins to answer the question in the title...
-My perfect Sonic Adventure 3. Have more than one playable character
-Each character has their own story arch which leads to a last story
-MAKE SHADOW PLAYABLE AND NOT DESTROY HIS CHARACTER.
- Controls to handle like adventure 2
-No cheesy ass kid jokes. Sonic has more than just kids as fans
-Have the tone stick to the adventure plots. Don’t go so deep like 06 or shadow the hedgehog.
-chao garden
-2 player vs mode
-“Maybe Item upgrades”
-super sonic and super shadow
-Bring back crush 40
-Make tails important to the plot
-No boost formula
The non biased beauty of this video is incomprehensible 😌
non biased? maybe, completely wrong? definately
Like I said in the other comment, I think your appreciation of Unleashed story is undeserved. But I see you have a point that those Adventure era games had the story being told from different points of view.
I however disagree that this alone was the positive. The positive thing about this approach was that the story ended up being good. And the writers making the story from different points of view helped to achieve this goal. It forced the writers to naturally auto-correct what they were actually writing. It made them think about the flow of the events. It made the resulting story more believable and natural. Because it had an actual flow.
I think that if they were forced to do the same thing for Forces, they would improve the quality of that story, because they would need to revisit what is happening where and when and how that relates to the other events. Without this auto-correcting mechanism, writers just ended up telling any story that came to their minds. I am certain they even used the first draft without correcting anything.
you bash unleashed but think the adventure games have a good flow on story?
Yo amazing video and deep explanation of game design. Solid voice work too. Check out project 06 im very curious what you're take on it is. I think i brought back /shed light on the pitentia) potential of classic 2000s adventure 3d sonic game play & game design. Cheers
If we were to get a Sonic Adventure 3, I'd want it to take place immediately after Sonic Adventure 2, and have a post-credits scene leading up to Sonic Heroes.
To be fair, shadow the hedgehog fills that roll storywise. If I'm correct, the shadow in that game is the same as in adventure 2.
*reads disclaimer* yeah, no kidding. The flipfloppin' is real.
I think that an Adventure remake, with fixed glitches and physics would be the best way to see if the gameplay would still hold up.
I already like this video from the disclaimer.
I feel like a hell of a lot of people forgot about SEGA's response to Classic Sonic after Generations.
I think what the exploration in adventure games is the fact that sonic has a more decisive and accurate movement in slow speed and the game provides you with the freedom to walk around turn the camera co back and jump around.While in the boost games sonic is really stiff and not perceive in slow speed, plus you can't turn the camera around as it is fixed to wards the direction you have to go.This is not really noticeable because you are usually boosting homing on enemies or just running fast and forward with the side step providing you with the ability to turn easily.
I like making the comparison to a car and a pedestrian.When walking you have the freedom to change direction easily go across the road to the other pavement or let's say go back home in case you forgot something you can walk you can run but you ain't going as fast as a car.On the other side when driving you can go faster and faster as long as you are allowed to.On the flip side of things when driving you are forced to a specific route and you are always going forward. Sure you can take a turn to access an other street so you can skip traffic jams ect but you don't have the ability to move like you would on foot as you are in a viechle that builds for going from point A to point B faster.
What I'm trying to explain it thatthe levels are the same linear (with a few exceptions here and there) but the way you experience them is different
I feel bad for past you :-: so optimistic for forces... if only we could have sheltered you
I really liked how open Final Rush was in SA2! Although, what boosting is there in Sonic Heroes? The Rocket Accel functions different from the boosting in Unleashed, Colors, and Generations...
powblockmaster special stages in heroes
There's so much I want to say, but I don't really feel like typing it all out right now, so I'll just say this:
I so desperately want Sega and Sonic Team to try the Adventure style gameplay one more time. Adventure 1 was the first game I ever touched, so of course I'm going to have a ton of nostalgic bias, but regardless I genuinely feel that Sonic Adventure was the game that brought the classic elements of the 90s into a 3D space the best out of ANY Sonic title. It was just held back by a shotty and rushed development cycle, as was detailed early on in the video, though I still think it's a great game. Just think of what Sega could do with today's technology! Adventure 3 could easily be the best 3D title we've ever gotten (with enough time and effort of course). There's still so much untapped potential in the Adventure formula in my eyes, and if Sega picked it back up and gave it a fresh 2018-2019 coat of paint, they could truly make something spectacular.
thatquirkyredhead I hate sa2 because of mech and teusure huntering stages I would like a adventure style sonic only game.
Ghetto Link I would be good with having a choice of tails knuckles and sonic that have a different path but play mostly the same.
18:10 grinding is a mostly optional mechanic used in SOME levels. While it does change how you interact with level it's not a major change up. Boost is a mechanic designed for ALL stages and changes the level to be more reaction focus (unless you're sonic colors). It is a major change up to the gameplay different from adventure. P.S. this apply to the guns since they are mostly and do affect level design.
Well the thing is that the Adventure formula is fun and feels closer to classic Sonic games in 3D (Adventure 1 more than 2 in that regard). With more powerful hardware and given enough time to buff out the bugs there is a good chance of an Adventure game being the best Sonic game period, much like Mario 64 or Galaxy. A lot of Adventure and Adventure 2's issues were a result of being pioneers of the 3D Sonic series with Adventure being the first 3D games to have voiced full motion cut scenes and a lot of unique gameplay styles. Sonic Adventure (while flawed) shows obvious potential if effort was made to smooth out the edges.
Where have you been all my life? I find a new pro Adventure channel(or at least a channel that doesn't blindly bash it).
Overall, I'd say this analysis was good, but these are a few things I take issue with:
You severely undersell and even misrepresent how open the level design tends to be in Adventure 1, Heroes, and Shadow. Most of the levels in SA1 are very branching and/or open. See Casinopolis, the opening section of Ice Cap, Act 2 of Twinkle Park, Speed Highway, Act 1 of Red Mountain, Sky Deck, Act 2 of Lost World, and Act 2 of Final Egg. ALL of the levels in Heroes and Shadow are even more branching and spacious than the ones in SA1, so I have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to those two games. Even if the multiple pathways lead back to the main path, that's not a reason to dismiss them, and that's something the 2D games did as well.
Next, your definition of the 'Adventure Formula' is flawed. There is no reason for you to include Heroes, Shadow, and 06 along with SA1 and 2 as part of the 'Adventure Formula' when it comes to what fans are asking for when they say they want an SA3. When people say they want SA3, what they're talking about are SA1 and 2 only, not the later games. I don't know why you would assume the outcry for SA3 was also lumping Heroes, Shadow, and 06 into their plea. How did it not occur to you that the reason the 'Adventure Formula' is so vaguely defined to you is because you're incorrectly assuming what Adventure fans are asking for? When you fix that problem, the 'Adventure Formula' is a lot more clearly defined and it becomes a lot more obvious what they're asking for.
Your calling Unleashed an Adventure game in all but storytelling style doesn't make sense either. You say Boost doesn't discount it as an Adventure game because that's like saying SA1 isn't an Adventure game because it doesn't feature grinding. This is a false equivalence through and through since Boost is a gameplay philosophy that FUNDAMENTALLY changes how the game is designed and played, and grinding is a small, oftentimes optional feature on top of Adventure 1's movement and physics in SA2.
Your claiming of Unleashed as the best story in Sonic is ludicrous and I just can't agree with it. Your reasoning is it balances the tones of light and dark well, but what good is that if everything else is terrible? The pacing of the story is awful, starting off with tons of momentum, but then the plot disappears for the entire middle of the game while you watch the same scene of restoring a temple MULTIPLE times. Amy and Tails are almost entirely superfluous to the plot, especially Amy who doesn't do anything past her first cutscene. Other things are just generally poorly written, such as Sonic turning into a Werehog for no reason whatsoever, Sonic becoming sad about his Werehog form for one cutscene, then that plot point getting dropped entirely, Professor Pickle dumping exposition all over you about the ancient prophecy of the villain, and Chip just instantly regaining his lost memories within a single cutscene. And even your point about the tones doesn't hold up since Unleashed way too often kills the mood or there's a dissonance between the situation and the tone. Such as the Professor Pickle rescue cutscene having him rambling about sandwiches, random cartoon sound effects in scenes where they have no place, Chip distracting from a serious or epic moment by acting silly, Eggman acting like an incompetent buffoon, Sonic not taking a situation as seriously as he should, or the out of place freakish-looking bootleg Pixar human designs which clash with the characters in such a bad way. These tonal problems harm investment in the story and the believability of the world.
Ruby of Blue What do you mean he turns into the werehog for no reason? It clearly shows you in the intro of Unleashed he was mutated by Eggman, letting the darkness from Dark Gaia be inside of him, making him a werehog at night. Amy also has more than one cutscene. She was rescued by Sonic when the Dark Gaia monsters were surrounding Spagonia. Then when the Professor told her he knew Sonic, she wanted to know everything he knew. Yeah Amy wasn't a huge or important part of the game but she was just ok at least.
Lots of Adventure fans are also fans of Heroes Shadow and 06 and see them as part of the Adventure Era. Premydaremy for example. There's a few others but I can't remember who they are at the moment.
i'm just going to adress your story argument in unleashed as i agree with the rest of your points
firstly he never said that the story is the best thing ever, the story is good but it completely stomps on any story that any sonic the hedgehog game ever had, or if you think there are better sonic stories out there in his 3d career or his whole existance for that matter, please point out which and explain why.
i'm going through each of your points you put them in your last paragraph
"The pacing of the story is awful, starting off with tons of momentum, but then the plot disappears for the entire middle of the game while you watch the same scene of restoring a temple MULTIPLE times."
well the plot of the game in that part is for you to go and restore the power of the chaos emeralds so the plot isn't gone, what you are doing is essential to the story so i don't know why you are saying that the plot is gone, something that really interrupts a plot in a sonic game are gamma and big stories in sonic adventure.
"Amy and Tails are almost entirely superfluous to the plot, especially Amy who doesn't do anything past her first cutscene".
well they aren't the protagonists of the game, tails is in some way essential since you need him to travel to the different locations of the game, amy was very superflous yeah i agree, but in reality that really doesn't affect the plot of the story, so i don't know why is that a problem
Sonic becoming sad about his Werehog form for one cutscene, then that plot point getting dropped entirely, yeah this was a wierd thing to do.
"Professor Pickle dumping exposition all over you about the ancient prophecy of the villain"
sometimes exposition is needed in order to explain somethings, granted i don't think this was bad exposition since trying to explian that kind of stuff in another medium would make the game loose the focus on what you are doing. its certainly better than tikal´s exposition in Adventure 1, or tails telling himself what prison island is in Adventure 2.
"Chip just instantly regaining his lost memories within a single cutscene".
i don't remember this much, but if in that cutscene, something happen for him to remember then i'm fine with it, after all this was almost in the last part of the game so probably all the adventure and visiting the temples was what made him slowly recognizing who he was.
"And even your point about the tones doesn't hold up since Unleashed way too often kills the mood or there's a dissonance between the situation and the tone. Such as the Professor Pickle rescue cutscene having him rambling about sandwiches"
profesor pickle scene was actually really funny, and it didn't affect the course of the story in the least, so i don't see why is this a problem
"random cartoon sound effects in scenes where they have no place, Chip distracting from a serious or epic moment by acting silly"
granted the sound effects were uneeded but they weren't distracting anyway since those are only in comedic scenes, Chip was a comic relief, so him acting silly was his thing, he was a silly character and when he needed to be serious he was serious enough, i don't want solid snake level of seriousness in this game, cause that would actually make the tone confusing
"Eggman acting like an incompetent buffoon, Sonic not taking a situation as seriously as he should"
Eggman has always been incompetent thats why sonic always stops him and Sonic has never taken anything too seriously, he is just a guy that loves adventure so him not being serious is a core part of his character since he is actually enjoying the adventure
"or the out of place freakish-looking bootleg Pixar human designs which clash with the characters in such a bad way. These tonal problems harm investment in the story and the believability of the world."
i'm sorry but this complain is downright stupid, sonic is an antrophorpic cartoony looking hedghog that can talk, eggman is a scientist that has a body shaped after an egg, what the hell are you talking about when you say that this cartoon designs clash with the world, this designs fitt perfectly with a world where the main antagonist is shaped after an egg and and your protagonist is a cartoony hedgehog that has one eye with 2 pupils
what do you want then? a sonic 06 with realistic and final fantasy designed humans? that doesn't fit sonic the hedgehog at all.
i read your comment so i hope you read my answer,
in short you are being very nitpicky with the story and while it isn't an oscar worthy story, its sonic the hedgehog and i don't expect an oscar winning story for a cartoon hedghog that runs at the speed of sound.
this is just you looking for reasons to hate the story, and again while not perfect is by a very large margin the best story sonic the hedgehog ever had
Exactly.
This is a great analysis! I always felt that, if Adventure 3 is ever made, it should evolve the core aspects that you basically brought up. Exploration should be encouraged more by having larger, more explorable levels. Clearly defined starts and goals, but you're free to take almost any path you want. Essentially make Sonic Utopia a stepping stone, only with some more structure. Multiple playable characters with their own stories, but their gameplay are extensions to the main gameplay. Similar to many of the 2D Sonic games in that manner. I'm not sure if people would want inherently non-Sonic gameplay in a Sonic game at this point (which is, solely a platformer), so we'll refrain from mandatory treasure hunting (maybe optional for rewards) and fishing.
I also feel anyway that Sega's going to move away from the Boost formula because, according to their own words, that formula is extremely taxing to the art and level designers since they have to make miles of level in order for it to last a minute or two.
I personally like what the fan game Sonic World did with the Adventure formula. Carefully blending Heroes and Lost World's gameplay elements and level design ideas to create a creative twist on Adventure's formula that feels like a logical advancement. (When the stages are good, that is, I know that some developers are just starting out so I can't be too harsh, but this does make some levels feel amaturish.)
I'm sorry but saying Unleashed plot is better than SA1 and SA2 seem wrong on so many levels.
In the Adventure games, skillful play and exploration reward the player with faster completion and higher score, which in turn reward the player with bonus content (usually). SA1 DC did not do the second part, but SADX rewarded emblem collection with unlockable Game Gear titles. SA2 gave you Green Hill Zone for A-ranking everything, and Heroes gave you Super Hard mode. Shadow and 06 I don't know, but maybe Shadow gave you something for skillful completion.
Shadow apparently gave you something called expert mode, which made you replay all the other levels except much harder
The lack of "exploration" in the adventure titles is the same as the classics. Everyone acts as if the Classics were some kind of Metroidvania with pinball mechanics. THEY WERE NOT!
The Exploration is more in how one can exploit the flow and mechanics of Sonic's Movement then being some kinda of pseudo-Zelda title.
Man this is how I feel.
While the 2D games had some open agency to the level design, it wasn't just for the sake of being "Exploratory".
Aside from accessing special stages, the routes were more so rewards that were part of the journey.
nice logo you did there bro
Great video! Not entirely related, but I know for me personally, I don't want another "Adventure-style" Sonic game. What I *do* want is for Modern Sonic to try something more like Adventure's gameplay, though. I basically just want SEGA to pull another Sonic Mania and hire the fan developers of Sonic Utopia and make a whole 3D Sonic game like that. Multiple pathways, momentum-based speed that rewards experimentation, reflexes and memorisation, and fast-paced platforming. That's my DREAM 3D Sonic game. Add in Tails and Knuckles and maybe a few other characters with their own unique abilities, pathways and stuff and bam, best 3D Sonic hands down.
Wasn’t those sa1 glitches only on the Gamecube version?
Yeah give me adventure back,
Boost and genisis had their chance.
Dont kill adventure if boost fails.
Great analysis. The only thing I disagree is that I think Sonic Unleashed actually does utilize narrative from multiple perspectives. Or at least was supposed to do that, through the perspectives of Sonic and Werehog. Though sadly it failed.
As much as I'd like to see remakes of the Adventure games, that would only piss off the fandom even more than please them.
Making remakes would mean lots of fans would have something to complain about. Like "It doesn't have the same charm or spirit of the original!," or "Why did they remove X?!," and of course the famous "I hate these new graphics! The old ones were better!"
In this day and age, remakes are pretty hard to do when it comes to pleasing old fans. Just take a look at the complaints the Superstar Saga remake got despite having prettier visuals and whatnot. People are legit crying about Geno getting removed in the Super Stache Bros. minigame! And this is something I can easily see SEGA doing if they ever decided do remake those games.
SA1&2 remakes would be nice, yes, but knowing the Sonic fandom...nostalgia will probably cloud their minds, and they'll find stuff to nitpick over the remakes compared to the originals. The same can be said about nearly any fandom's reactions when it comes to remakes.
Making a new Sonic game in the style of the Adventure titles would just be an easier way out, rather than re-creating old ones, but that's just my two cents.
Still, I wouldn't mind if they tried. Sure, maybe they'll screw up in some way, but I like to hope that they can do something like that work if they put their minds to it. Of course, I would prefer if it was done in collaboration with another development team that has a good understanding of how these games work, as I'm not really confident about letting Sonic team alone working on such projects by themselves.
That's why 06 is best remade rather than say Adventure or its sequel.
Sonic World Adventure is apart of this technically. It's in the name and is lauded as a sub-series for the Adventure games.
You gave me hope
Thank you so much
Sonic adventure was a great time for me and I would love a polished remake
But in my opinion they should recast the original voice cast as much as they can anyway (they should keep Dean Bristow out of respect)
But with Ryan Drummond in his union and Sega not really caring about that it doesn't seem likely but if sonic adventure comes back it may be possible
I'm not sure if this would count as evidence for a Sonic Adventure Remake collection, but SEGA is releasing vinyls of SA1/2 pretty soon. That kind of merchandising could indicate something, maybe...? I dunno, it's a stretch.
The Adventure Formula is just SA1 and SA2
how are shadow and heroes sonic adventure titles? just because they all started with the 3d games and ended with the boost formula doesnt mean they actually have something in common.
Couldn't these definitions be applied to Mania and 3&K as well? Exploration, multiple perspectives (Knuckles), supplemental gameplay (bonus/special stages).
Well yeah. With the only difference being that those definitions are applied n a 2D environment, rather than a 3d one.
Maybe these can just be thought of as auxiliary elements that make for an engaging Sonic game (as opposed to the essential elements).
oh my god finally somebody actually uses the dreamcast version for adventure gameplay instead of garbage PC port
also awesome video.
I wouldn't want them to make sequels to adventure before getting a sense of feeling back to that style. Remember what happened when they made Sonic 4? I rather say have no Adventure Sequel but an Adventure style game for them to get a feeling for it.
I just want another sonic game with the adventure formula
I think they can build upon the sonic sections from adventure 2
I want to see a game with a cohesive inclusion of all three formulas: 2D platforming from the classic games, adventure zones and 3D platforming from the adventure era, AND fast-paced boost-style level sections.
That was the original plan for Generations, although Dreamcast Sonic never made it into the final game. Then Generations did nothing to compensate for the lack of Dreamcast Era content. This was made even worse by the fact that the game screwed up the levels chosen for Dreamcast Era & the complete lack of content from the game Shadow the Hedgehog.
@@WaterKirby1994 Wait dreamcast sonic was planned to be in the game? I already enjoyed generations, but to also include what is in my opinion the best sonic controls out of the different versions of sonic so far? Yeah that would've been amazing.
Would love to see Sonic be like he was in the original Adventure and for Sonic Team to expand upon that,like Sonic 2 did to Sonic the Hedgehog. As for playable characters.I always thought Sonic 3 and K,Mania,and Advance had a really solid approach to them.
Story Wise:I always enjoyed Sonic 3 and Knuckles approach.I could relate to Knuckles as a character since I had been betrayed by someone who was my friends.The level transitions,and the murial in Hidden Palace made Angel Island feel like a cohesive world.Plus the Level transitions themselves where non intrusive,since cutscenes tend to lack replayblity and players may or may not decide to skip them
And here I am waiting for a Sonic CD sequel...
don't forget this is a video... there's not much for the eyes here...
The optimistic discussions of Forces sure aged well didn't they? But in all seriousness, I personally would love to see some form of the Adventure Formula come back in stead of more boost junk or whatever the heck this upcoming abomination is trying to be.
Odd you criticized Colors' gameplay as clunky, given how I think Sonic had much smoother turning than in Gens, along with having a physics engine second only to the Adventure games (in the series). You can just run down a slope, building up a ton of speed, and then as it curves into a ramp, jump and reach some good heights; that's absent in Gens. While I understand the frustration with some of Colors' more blocky level design, it's also hard to understand how their expansive structure, incredible replay value (either via the reason I just mentioned or how Sonic's wisps and overall control lend to speed running very well) seem to go under the radar, especially given how Colors is capable (for the most part, anyway) of keeping things moving at a brisk pace enough pace or allows you to do so. Speed isn't handed to you like it is in Gens; it's something you earn in a manner similar to the way one does in the Adventure games (on a conceptual level anyways): the goal of the challenge (or goal) isn't just to get through a stage just one time. By utilizing the wisps, along with flexing with Sonic's physics, players can exceed expectations rather than simply meet them. Also, I've never quite got the criticism for the game having "too much" 2D.
I also want to comment on your analysis on the Adventure styled games' exploration, or what you dissected as the lack there of; exploration (as far I'm aware of anyways) isn't relegated to multiple paths only; Adventure and Heroes had notable scale. What I mean is that while it was generally one path forward with little deviations, Adventure presented players with massive level size to compensate. Just look at Twinkle Park Act 2 for the perfect example; anywhere you go, the game is nudging you to go forward. But the act is so massive and expansive, the player wind up running up and down and all around for awhile looking to see if they'd have found everything. Even if you aren't that sort of player and stick to one route period, Adventure made it very clear to the player that the world was much bigger than what they were experiencing. The world construction in Adventure was very natural that way; they aren't just artificial roads someone laid out for Sonic, they are actual, functioning worlds that you can view as such (and play as such). Heroes had this to some degree, as the worlds there were very large and often sported branching paths, it didn't naturally reward players as Adventure did. Instead of sloped hills and curves that let the player go ham with Sonic's physics, Heroes often displayed a change in scenery. But I think it still is worthy of being considered a paragon of sorts for exploration in a Sonic game because of how massive the worlds were; we never saw stages as open or meaningfully long as they until Generations came 'round. (Noticed that you billed this for 06, which is very true, but I think they still apply to the examples I brought up.
Personally, I'd prefer to not have a multi-faceted plot though. Unless they get the whole multiple playstyle thing right. Also, Big has momentum based platforming?
I was clueless about what you meant about the "Boost" in Sonic Heroes then realised you must mean the feature during Special Stages.
I know you probably aren't hanging onto that point much as it was intended to show how "Boost" isn't exclusively in "Boost Games" but not only are Special Stages almost always out of mind when discussing the series (unless they are terrible - see Sonic Lost World 3DS) but I think that "Boost" mechanic needs to be defined clearly as well.
I consider the "Boost" mechanic to be one that kills enemies, runs on some sort of limited meter and has next to no build-up or anticipation when being done.
I may be a bit of a detractor of the Boost concept but I think this is a fair summary as Spindash tends to have a wind up even in the case of Sonic Heroes where you can't do it in place and the Boost-esque mechanics in the Storybook series don't trivialise foes or hazards in the same way (Black Knight provides access to a timing based QTE like thing for critical hits). This goes for the "Boost" in Heroes as well as it may happen immediately and run on a meter but doesn't beat anything but distance (though I suppose they have no enemies IIRC with mines being there instead).
Yooo, Lastgogeta! Long time no see?
Actually, the Boost itself isn't that much different to rolling in past games truth be told, and doesn't trivialize enemies any more or less.
The difference is the ENEMIES.
Enemies in the Classics and Adventure era games had spikes or shields to force you to approach certain enemies in certain ways, while the Modern games speed section enemies do not.
Also, Sonic Heroes Boost doesn't hurt enemies because there are no enemies to hurt. Mechanically, it is exactly the same.
Oh hey, I think I remember you for the SK2 boards under another name. Need to get back.
I do think that the enemies are worth more consideration than I gave them before but that Rolling isn't very similar to Boosting. It isn't just how the enemies are designed but how it allows you to negate the design of the level and slope in a single tap of a button. Functionally, the Spindash in Lost World's ability to be carried over on landing can produce some of this effect but I found it to be better balanced.
Right. The boost in Heroes has the same functionality but it is framed in a Special Stage which tend to be gimmicky side levels, optional for the core experience and have a lack of enemies.
It would be nice if we brought back enemies with nuance anyway. Black Knight had some fine ideas but needed more time in the oven. Sonic Lost World's chargeable homing attack gave the player a reason to not bash the button over and over but auto-targeted multiple enemies at once even ones with defensive measures like the classics and Adventure games.
I didn't play Sonic Boom (Wii U or 3DS games) to know but it seems to be the most recent attempt to play with the idea in 3D.
Yea that's me alright. I go under GallantChaddymn on Gfaqs. I guess we share a lot more similar interests, lol.
In regards to rolling, Boosting allows you to do so as well tho. Spin jumps and Boost Jumps largely interact the same in the gameplay. The difference is largely just that one is restricted by the environment while the other is always at your finger tips.
Functionally, they are largely the same, even tho mechanically they are different.
The point I was largely trying to make was that the Heroes Boost, part of the main gameplay or not, shows the potential for it's use outside the Modern Sonic gameplay, and within the Adventure style or potentially a new style combining the elements of both.
Most people largely see the Boost as a mechanic as responsible for how the Modern games are controlled and designed, but this is short sighted.
Just as the Spindash functions differently in LostWorld, the Boost can and does functions differently based on the over arching systems of the game as a whole.
As for the charged Homing attack, I am strongly against it, as it needlessly bogs down the pace of the game. Sonic games aren't about combat, and I find it largely counterproductive to force the player to sit in a spot to defeat enemies.
While enemies having more nuance is important, it shouldn't come at the expense of the games pacing. Even in the Classics, enemies easily and near thoughtlessly were defeated by flying into them at high speed like a blue bullet. The nuance came from where you needed to hit them, and what move you used as a result, not how hard you needed to., and even in Heroes, you were given the ability to quickly mash through beafier enemies at your pace.
Sorry for the wait.
I'm not sure I get where you are coming from with Boost's potential in Adventure gameplay unless you mean to specify how it would work out.
On that note, I obviously wish Boost was nerfed hard but if it wasn't nerfed directly, I'd like to see the trick button return from Sonic Rush (something similar is in Sonic Advance 3). As far as I can tell, Adventure games just had short cutscenes or ramps where you press something for a trick while Unleashed had some QTEs where you could do an input for a trick and alternative path.
What if we could do a trick off any ramp (see Sonic Advance 3) or even any time in the air (see Rush) perhaps with some risk like a skating game as well as some bonus momentum or properties (perhaps some could attack as well).
That wouldn't correct for concerns with Boost itself but it would give players more to do without seeming out of place by any Sonic standard.
On the charged homing attack, like how Spindash was redesigned for Lost World, I think the charged homing attack and Sonic's secondary air attack (a projectile in Lost World) need some work. That projectile was even worse for momentum as you literally stay in place and the only possible action afterwards is Homing Attack or Wisp.
I'm not sure exactly what I want but even Heroes had Espio with a skill to turn invisible or Sonic's ability to remove shields (functionally close to homing attack and tied to perfect Spindash at Level 3). Sonic Battle also had some moves.
Part of my praise for the charged homing attack was as it didn't add any new inputs but made players need to think more than boost and sidestep or bashing the homing attack input. Perhaps it would have been wiser to make homing attack hit harder based on how far you are moving and travel further as well.
It doesn't sound great for small encounters but in a game without boosting where a trigger or Spindash accesses Max Speed. It could work.
i would like too see adventure 1, 2 and heroes remade in 1 game or at least both adventure games with shared chao garden rings and animals/ chaos drives
the japanese release of sonic adventure will be 20 years old in 2018 and the american release will be 20 in 2019
=D Great video analysis, dude. I'm a Sonic Adventure fan. As much as I praised the Adventure formula (Sonic Adventure & Sonic Adventure 2), I'll admit that it's not perfect and it needs more tweaking. I really wish that Sonic Team would go back and try the Adventure formula again because I do think they perfected Sonic's gameplay. The speed and platforming were balanced very well and I had full control of the Sonic characters. Sonic's physics were not too fast (Sonic Heroes) and not too precise (Sonic Next Gen). When you start moving Sonic with the analog stick, he moves slow for a few seconds and then goes super fast once he hits maximum speed. I like that because you have enough to time to react to enemies and/or obstacles and you can walk around levels and jump on platforms without having to move superfast. If Sega can tweak the Adventure formula, remove the speed boosters, make non-linear original fully 3D stages, and have Sonic's friends play just like him, but make sure that the levels coordinate with the characters' unique abilities, I think Sega would have a solid Sonic game.
While I don't think the boost formula is a terrible game mechanic, I do think that the boosting needs to be replace with the spindash. I hate how you can blast through the first few levels with just a push of a button. Speed should be rewarded to the player, not by pressing and holding a button. Sure, I don't need to use the boost the whole time in order to get through the level, but here's the thing, the level design has to accommodate with Sonic's boosting mechanic in order to create the sense of speed and thrill. Sacrificing platforming and exploration (for the most part) with long empty linear hallways and quick time events. The point I'm trying to get across is that the Sonic games with the boosting formula make it feel like I'm watching rather then playing the games. Some people like to say the boosting formula is a a "boost-to-win" type of gameplay, I don't believe that to be the case since there are areas where you have to jump, quick step, and homing attack, but I don't think the boosting formula is the right direction for the Sonic franchise, nor do I think it will last for another ten years.
I do think that the Adventure formula needs to return. Sega can bring new gameplay ideas to the table with the Adventure formula, but because Iizuka says that Sonic Team are not interested on going back to the Adventure formula just to please the Sonic Adventure fans (how ironic), I don't think we're going to see the Adventure formula any time soon. It's a shame because Sega had a gameplay mechanic that work with speed, platforming, and exploration, but threw it all away for a gameplay mechanic that heavily emphasis speed. Oh well, I guess I'll go back to play Sonic World again.
11:33
*SAY IT AGAIN*
*SAY IT AGAIN **_PLEASE_*
I mean, compared to the boost games yeah they're pretty open
I don't hate Sonic Team for using nostalgia, as long as it's not using overdone tropes like Classic Sonic and Green Hill Zone. I would be perfectly fine with Sonic Team remaking the Adventure games.
Honestly if Sonic Adventure got a remake, fixing the biggest issues of the game, I'd probably really enjoy it again.
I'm surprised you didn't mention the fundamental differences in how Sonic and his stages are designed.
The degree of their exploration only went as far as small rewards for sniffing out nooks and crannies and they were somewhat linear, but I think what adventure fans miss mainly is the level of interactivity. Using his moveset to traverse courses of various shapes and obstacles meant working for the speed you build and maintain, while simply not as visually or literally as fast as a Boost game, had more interactivity than them, and thus felt a bit more engaging. If anything I think adventure might have kept that element from 2d Sonic, speed as a reward for reactive and skillful navigation rather than at the press of a button.
And I love colors/generations as much as the next guy, but I do see the reasoning behind that phrase 'hold X to win' that it's critics use.
Generations has two completely different gameplay styles that don't have any cohesion? That's the whole point of that game. What would be the alternative for Generations? Making Classic Sonic's gameplay the same as Modern Sonic's?
Yeesh, those games after SA2 are considered of the Adventure formula? I thought it was following the... bad formula. (Particularly Shadow and 06)
You guys think they'll go for an SA1 Remake now that Forces is an official failure?
Forces isn't a failure, it's actually what Japanese fans heavily asked for. Try playing the game in Japanese it's better without Roger's Voice Acting. We got Shadow playable for the 1st time in the mainseries in over a decade, we now have Super Sonic DLC as well that's currently free download. The Custom Hero was the game gave us makes the game fun & heavily immersive. Overall while Forces could have been better, I wouldn't classify it as a failure.
Generations had just as many failings as Forces yet it isn't considered a failure is it? The 1 big problem most people have with Forces was actually a leftover from Gens known as Classic Sonic. Sure there's no such thing as a perfect Sonic Game, closest we got was Adventure or Adventure 2 Battle, there are plenty of great games. Although if 3K remake by Whitehead complete with &Knuckles mode were to get Bluelighted that would probably be the closest thing to Perfection we'll ever get in the Sonic series.
its the same cringey comedy the english version has. but just having more "hardcore" language which comes off just as lame.
and its an official failure since it hasn't been selling well worldwide anymore, and both fans aswell as reviewers have giving the game terrible grades, i haven't seen a single review saying that forces is anything more than below average.
Generations didn't have as much failing, and i still consider that game very average anyway, forces has some of the worst level design in any sonic game bar none, the jump has never felt more awkward when the boost games have terrible jumping in general and they made that worse and the 2d platforming sections are as bad as they've always been but now they decided to make more 2d sections than before with worse physiscs, adding the fact that turning is scripted instead of adding the drift, its clearly a game that doesn''t want to be played. it wants to play on its own. and since thats the case, i'm not paying for it
Y E S Thank you