How Games Get SMGs Wrong - Loadout
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- Опубліковано 9 гру 2023
- From Call of Duty to Counter-Strike, the sub-machine gun has dominated virtual battlefields, so much so that nearly every shooter has at least one that players would label “overpowered”. Today, some consider the weapon to be niche or obsolete, but why has the SMG reigned supreme in gaming for so long?
With the help of Keeper of Firearms & Artillery, Jonathan Ferguson, we’ve come to the Royal Armouries museum in the UK to learn more about the history of the SMG, and find out why games are getting the humble SMG wrong.
In this episode of Loadout, Dave Jewitt visits the Royal Armouries to talk to Keeper of Firearms & Artillery Jonathan Ferguson to chart the many differences between real SMGs and their virtual counterparts.
You can check out more episodes of Loadout right here. - • How Games Are Lying To...
You can check out our Firearms Expert Reacts series here. - • Firearms Expert Reacts...
If you're interested in seeing more of Jonathan's work, you can check out more from the Royal Armouries right here. - / royalarmouries
If you would like to support the Royal Armouries, you can make a charitable donation to the museum here. - royalarmouries.org/support-us... - Ігри
I'm proud and pleased to say that Loadout is back for another season!
Loadout is one of my favourite projects that we get to work on each year, and I always look forward to reading all of your thoughts, as we do these deep dives into the history of firearms and gaming, dissect virtual arsenals, and break down tropes and interesting stories.
Be sure to tell us what you think and what you'd like to one day see us cover, and make sure you subscribe and come back each week as we've lots more to come over the next few months.
❤
37th week of asking for episode on games (not) keeping track of rounds in chamber between reloads. (and 61st week of asking for Expert Reacts episode on Bullet Girls Phantasia)
Just a nit picky, heads up - I'm not sure that was actually True Lies being shown at 2:41. I'm not sure what Arnie movie it actually is, but from the many times my younger self has re-watched True Lies - I don't think that clip is from it. That's just nit picking though. Once again, another great video fellas!
Could you do something about mechs?
Glad to see it back, always nice to have more longform in-depth videos.
Out of curiosity are you guys planning to return to Tarkov for the react videos with this month's update and Arena now that recoil is getting significantly reworked? I know that's one of the main complaints Jonathan had about the game when you would show it to him.
@@Gigadweeb Potentially! Tarkov is a little tricky to record gameplay for as I am reliant on what loot I can get, but I'm sure we'll return to Tarkov/Arena at some point for sure
always happy to listen to Jonathan Ferguson talk about guns
Same tbh
Reddit
Any video that features Jonathan Ferguson is a watch
*MUST watch
Ironic
He is living treasure
Reddit
Dave and Jonathan videos are the best thing on this channel IMO
(by far)
Nothing else comes even close.
Imagine having your ancestors blamed for those who do the tasks of ownership for them and how they’re marketed.
I'd love to see a loadout episode on how games get sights (i.e. telescopic sights, red dots, iron sights, etc) wrong.
👀
Kids gonna hate holographics when they realize how sand blasted the reticles look
18:58
"Freshly slapped MP5"
Shows operative racking the charging handle like any other gun
*Anger*
Man Dave has seriously skilled up in both his weapons knowledge and presentation. Its apparent in this and in his other videos with Jonathan.
Nothing else to add, just thought he deserved a shout out for how much hes improved.
Thank you, I appreciate that!
Fingers crossed one day I get to have a bit more range time too!
I liked how Red Orchestra featured SMGs as a rare class that you couldn't have as many of. It was a highly limited but powerful class.
Dave is the Robin to Jonathan's Batman. I love the way they play off each other.
In the first Ghost Recon game, an MP5 would do next to nothing to enemies wearing bullet proof vests.
The best one
@@Fingeringmyboarddude Sure is! It really felt like a tactical sim at the time.
@@fredbyoutubing still does plus you can genuinely get like 2000 fps for the ultimate gaming experience now
Fred that’s why they’ve been phased out irl too! With innovations in body armor 9mm was seen as losing too much effectiveness for the special forces units that tended to use them, leading to the rise of carbines
I really am glad to see this, not just because of Jonathan but also I love seeing Dave as well. That is also why I am so glad the Expert Reacts now includes Jonathan and Dave talking more often.
It will be interesting to see how the armor rework coming to Escape from Tarkov this new years will impact SMGs. More realistic armor hitboxes and a greater emphasis on landing multiple shots in the same spot might make them more viable. That being said, the top tier SMG ammos like 9x19mm PBP, SS190 (5.7x28mm AP), and .45 ACP AP are difficult to obtain so the MP7 may remain the only “meta” SMG.
I don't understand why anyone would use any other pistol caliber when .45 ACP exists in an "armor piercing" flavor lol.
I tried so hard to kind tarlov but it takes more time to get ammo in the game than it does to get a job and buy it IRL
@@andreivaldez2929The problem with .45 ACP is less the ammo and more the weapons. The only SMGs currently in Tarkov that fire .45 ACP are the UMP and the Vector. The UMP has tiny mags and a low fire rate. The vector has a great fire rate but unlike its 9mm counterpart, its mags are small so it out of ammo almost instantly.
@@andreivaldez2929.45 acp as a base round is subsonic. .45 acp also uses more mass than velocity when fired. It in no way would be good for armor piercing in a realistic setting. 9mm luger would be the best round nose pistol caliber to make AP honestly due to its availability and number of arms that use it.
Lots of SMGs are viable with the leg meta.
Battlefield 1 did an interesting thing with the two proto-assault rifles in its arsenal: it assigned them to different classes. The Fedorov Avtomat figured as more of an SLR than a sub gun - with its Arisaka ammunition and more traditional size - and went to the Medics. (Incidentally, I think DICE saw the popularity of the weapon and its play style influencing Medics to stick close to the action, allowing them to be more aggressive and put them in closer proximity to battle casualties, loved it, and that's why they gave Medics SMGs in BF5.) The Ribyerolles 1918 carbine, meanwhile, with its short barrel and intermediate cartridge, went with the other sub guns to the Assault class. This arrangement allowed for some cool and diverse approaches to class - pushing the front lines and taking objectives as a Medic, performing counter-suppression as an Assault grunt - and the game really benefitted from this counter-intuitive decision.
i think you overthinked the reason for smg going to medic in bfv. the most simple explanation is that smgs are not as powerful on a WW2 setting vs WW1. more automatic automatic weapons in the field with large caliber means the smg lost a ton of value, because you are no longer charging a bunch of people that can shoot twice by the time you empty your mag.
One of the biggest sins related to SMGs in games, is that SMGs actually do less damage per shot than handguns.
It should be same damage per shot, faster fire rate. Like Doom 1993's chaingun
like in team fortress 2, where the SMG deals 8 damage per shot while the pistol deals 15, which combined with the pistol's surprisingly high rate of fire, means that the pistol has a higher DPS.
well, depends on how similar the smg is to the handgun. everything from barrel length to feed/extraction, will effect the Muzzle velocity but a mostly negligible change. for instance a 1 shot pistol should have a better Muzzle velocity than say a blowback pistol as with everything else being the same, some of the energy will be lost ejecting the spent case.
the biggest sin they do more damage then ar's and lmgs
Love seeing more from this series. The “experts react” stuff is great, but this kind of deeper exploration is what I’m really here for
I love how much Dave has evolved over the years thanks to hanging out with Jonathan, especially now that he appears and talks to Jonathan during some of those weekly expert videos
I KNEW IT! I saw that the Loudout playlist had been updated a bit ago and was wondering if a new season was starting. Completely accidental that I saw that, I was just looking for the Experts React playlist.
That was such a well-made video that I don't even know what to comment. Like, you left no questions unanswered and mentioned all my favorite videogame SMGs. Well done, all.
Also, congrats on another season of Loadout!
Amazing video, but i would like to point out that there are mistakes with the video game names.
For example Cod4 Remastered says that it was released in 2019, yet it was actually released in 2016.
Or Payday 2 being developed by 505 games while it was developed by OVERKILL and released by Starbreze.
505 did publish Payday 2. Starbreeze is the parent company of the dev studio. They later bought out the rights from 505.
Love this series, guys! So well-written and incorporating actual weapons with Jonathan is great
Yay! It's that special time of the year for another Loadout season!
Our special holiday treat
I would like to see a video on the use of anti materiel rifles and anti tank rifles
the BIGGEST of pews
this is rly well made content. I actually know one or two things about guns and find this refreshingly clear and interesting. It gives you a perspective, it's not too complicated or preachy. I like it. Keep up the good work.
I've had the privilege to fire proper submachine guns. It was at a aerie of fundraising shoots over the years. I love the mp5 series, especially the SD. The P90 and MP7 are amazing fun, easy to use and dual role. I've fired a skorpion from the 60's, that fired crazy fast rates od .32acp, which I would only recommend for shooting rats off a tractor. I've fired a first ring cz scorpion and a newer model with longer barrel and a suppressor on it. Of course I got to try am original MP40 and an M3 grease gun. There's a few more, but I didn't get enough time to form a solid opinion of them. I like the current CZ Scorpion and the P90 most, with the M3 grease gun being a great choice too, it's very easy to control and throws the big .45acp slug a little faster than the pistol, and at around 600rpm, it's going to hurt, even in body armor
John combined with Dave complaining about younger gamers is great lol
I felt that in my bones
Great series, you guys together are unstoppable!
Loadout and Jonathan Ferguson reacts are honestly the main attraction of the channel and it's not even close. Incredible series, the love for videogames and guns is just overflowing from the screen, and it's all thanks to you guys. Much appreciated
The reference to sci-fi weapons and SMGs being interlinked is very true with the likes of Star Wars and the E-11. A prop based on the real Sterling SMG, the E-11 acts much like its real-life counterpart with great use at shorter ranges but struggling at armor piercing or long-range precision. It's cool to see SMG history represented in episodes like these on Loadout.
Unfortunately, no one told the Stormtroopers :D
Such a good series! Keep up the good work
This is a fantastic video
I hope you guys make more of these
14:19 it is my favorite too! always loved, the feel, the look, the animations, it's just gorgeous and powerful.
This series is so good! Keep up the great work yall
The P90 I remember from when I was younger in the ‘90s as just being so cool to look at in games
Kinda mentioned in the csgo example but I think the cost niche is also a good reason they show up a lot- pistol calibers are cheaper and easier to build simple full auto firearms around due to the lower pressure and ability to use blowback operation, so games that have an economy, rarity tiers, crafting, etc can place smgs in the niche of cheapest full-auto weapon. They tend to be a 'good deal' in terms of lower effectiveness but much lower cost compared to full rifles, so are popular.
10.5/11.5" barreled 5.56 AR15 with a suppressor is the current irl meta. SMGs got nerfed when the devs put body armor into the game. Now you only see them in use with certain VIP protection services and such.
To be fair, the current trend towards more open world sandbox settings, enabled by much greater render distances, and the buffs on body armour has started making the 5.56 less than appealing, so we're already seeing a new meta emerging which includes guns that, 20 years ago, were considered nerfed into the ground due to size and calibre, so it's important to remember that everything is a buff or a nerf away from either temporary or permanent obsolescence.
nah, the irl meta is long barreled 155mm
@@peterclarke7006
....no?
Those are for people with skill issues and the upcoming M7 is arguably a mistake of a rifle.
In close combat, you aim high or aim low. At longer distances, the capability of 6,8x51mm to defeat armor is questionable. So, you end up with plinking at foes using a pretty good scope.
Great.
Great video! Very useful and/or interesting information that points to shortcomings of video game design principles.
This video gives me so much nostalgia of the many games where the SMGs were my go-to, especially as a fast-paced player.
as somewhat of firearms and video games connoisseur this series tickles my fancy. Thank You Dave and Jonathan
Now it feels like a real Sunday!
I'm a fan of the big ol' Battle Rifle, myself, but the SMG is definitely the right tool for the job when it comes to clearing buildings or even exteriors that are closed-in (like that shanty-town enemy hide-out in FC2).
That's a magnificent vide! You just earned a subscriber!!!
Always had a soft spot for the mp5sd since the very first Rainbow Six game. That integral silencer just looks so slick.
I absolutely love the work you do with royal armouries
The Loadout Series are amazing. Keep up the great work!
Thank you!
The special forces connection also might stem from the fact that short rifles weren’t really common until the late 20th century. Whether it’s NATO sticking to “full power” 7.62 in big battle rifles or the soviets at first delineating the long SKS as the “rifle” and the AK as a “submachine gun”. People didn’t see service rifles as CQB implements, leaving those with specialized roles to use SMG’s.
This series' production value is nuts now, love to see Dave and Jonathan's knowledge and presentation skills get the showcasing they deserve
Thank you!
I may not be dressing up in cowboy hats and tuxedos like the first season, but we're very proud of the style and quality of the show a few seasons later!
Really cool video! Battle-rifles next!
"Light, Fast, Pistol caliber, but ooh so effective"
first clip shows someone getting mowed down.
I just busted out laughing.
I'm only subscribed to this channel for game trailers and for Dave and Jonathan's content.
I really love how you look at the topic from both, a real world, and a game design point of view: as a notoric theorycrafter, this is exactly my niche too.
Do you have an episode about battle rifles (especially in comparison to ARs and DMRs)?
Theorycrafter here, too! I am writing a table-top RPG (Dungeons amd Dragons and so on, if you know that) with a modern military setting. But I have no military experience - I just like the fantasy/cinenema style of it. So I met with a friend with that kind of experience and knowledge... And it was a harsh back and forth between realism, game simplicity and balance. That video resonated strongly with me.
9:30 boy, I felt that passage of narration. I keep wondering if games are speeding up, but I think I might just be slowing down lol
Jonathan = 🐐
I really like Rainbow Six Siege's way of handling ballistics. SMGs and Pistol calibers aren't as effective as Rifles at penetrating limbs and breaking walls. This generally gives greater advantage to attack in terms of destruction.
The high rate of fire, at close quarters against lightly armoured opponents makes them really excellent. In a military setting, against modern body armour tho, I don't think a 9x19 bullet would be very effective. It's just the way games work out damage and resistances so if you fire enough low powered rounds they'll still cause a lot of damage due to the high rate of fire.
They really don't work like that. No one really uses guns in full auto irl, except in rare circumstances, and soft armor will stop pistol rounds and at that point you're basically trying to punch someone until they stop which isn't reliable - just look at the 1997 North Hollywood shootout for a relatively modern example; bad guys wearing armor were shot dozens of times with pistols and shotguns and didn't stop fighting, while a couple rifle rounds stopped the fight fairly quickly.
@@andreivaldez2929 yeah but against unarmoured opponents, and just the sheer amount of lead flying at them would at least make them look for cover, giving you that slight edge. As they said in the video IRL they are a niche weapon but as I said, computer games logic doesn't work like in real life so even if they're wearing armour if you shoot them with a BB gun enough times they will eventually die coz the damage stacks. Some games get it more realistic than others but I get what you're saying, I probably didn't make myself clear enough in what I meant.
@@andreivaldez2929 not super sure about that one.
@@andreivaldez2929 Tbh, Mătăsăreanu was stopped pretty much because he was shot in the legs which were unprotected
@@andreivaldez2929The cops were likely using standard load hollow points, and out of pistols.
+P and +P+ are a thing.
Found it a little amusing how Dave's shots were always slowly moving to the left
very well produced
I think Loadout should do an episode on the FAMAS.
Its such a unique assault rifle in both its aesthetics i.e. that iconic carrying handle/sight protector.
As well as how it operates mechanically, being only one of a few blowback operated assault rifles.🙂
the production quality is insane
Thank you! Chris and Adam are absolute wizards when it comes to production, they're the reason this show looks so shiny haha
On the topic of the name "sub-machine gun", I believe the name was meant to refer to the weapon being machine gun that was chambered in a cartridge smaller than a standard rifle caliber, or "sub-caliber", if you will. So, in a sense, sub-machine gun basically means a machine gun or automatic weapon chambered in a pistol cartridge.
Interestingly, this year's Call of Duty, Modern Warfare III, has de-emphasized the SMG in a way similar to what Jonathan describes that irl modern fighting forces have done in the video. The game is very Assault Rifle-centric and SMGs are much more a niche category for players who want to maximize movement, sacrificing firepower that's mostly reserved for the game's assault rifles and battle rifles. This decision has been mostly unpopular with the playerbase.
Ngl Gamespot this is the only thing I watch on your channel
I believe Ready or Not really puts SMGs into a realistic perspective. Since you're put into situations where accidentally shooting a civilian/hostage with a rifle can be an issue, you're really forced into thinking what's a better pick before starting a mission and body armor really counts between stopping the bad guys or getting shot yourself - so your loadout really makes a difference, including the ammo selection you're choosing for the weapon system.
There's also the aspect of barrel length where in tight spaces a rifle can be problematic to handle (since the game will not allow you to aim as in real life because there's no space for you to deploy it properly in tight rooms) and Ready or Not and a handful other games really lean into this issue as well in CQC scenarios.
I have no idea if this would be interesting but could you possibly do an episode on aiming down sights in video games?
wish cod would follow CSGO's example, ridiculous that i can get 10 body shots with a 6.8 battle rifle in warzone then get vaporized in half a second when someone with an SMG gets 5 head shots
Love Loadout
Interesting video! 🎈🎈🎈
In games SMGs usually offer the highest fire rate and the lowest recoil and bullet hosing can be so much fun.
Mass Effect Andromeda has one particular burst fire SMG that can be modified to full auto with an amazing cyclic rate. Not only is it fun to use but also one of the most effective weapons in the game.
HE'S BACK!
I think it could have been mentioned that the AK was considered a replacement for the SMG class (among others) by the Russians/Soviets when it was introduced, so militaries moving away from them is not even a recent trend.
The UMP being brought up drives me nuts because people consistently forget WHY the UMP was broken in MW2. It's one of the slowest killing SMGs (even 3 shot weapons), but also was a 3 shot at all ranges, so suppressors literally didn't affect the gun in any practical metric.
The KRISS Vector, MP5K and P90 are objectively faster killing guns. where you'd expect to use it. The MP5k also being the only 800+RPM 3 shot weapon in the game... that you could equip Rapid fire to get a blistering near 1000RPM 3 shot.. I'm not even talking about Stopping Power yet...
Loved seeing an insurgency sandstorm clip!
Then we got Swedish kulsprutepistol, meaning bullet spraying pistol, which basically indicates that an SMG is a full auto default firing mechanism and a pistol cartridge carbine
In my opinion, the difference between submachine gun, personal defense weapon, and machine pistol are as follows:
Machine Pistol: Literally just a pistol capable of automatic or burst fire-eg. G18, Beretta 93R, etc
Submachine Gun: A weapon chambered in a "handgun cartridge" with full-auto or burst capability, specifically intended to be used two-handed-aka. _not_ a pistol form-factor with a tacked on stock or foregrip-Think Thompson or MP5
PDW: Somewhere between a machine pistol and SMG in size; higher capacity, lighter and more concealable than typical SMGs; emphasis on being a purely defensive weapon for "security" or "crew" type roles-The FN P90 or HK MP7 fall under this rubrik
They're totally arbitrary distinctions at the end of the day, just like the difference between "battle rifle" and "assault rifle", what counts as a "carbine" or "intermediate cartridge", etc. But it's a cool topic, since it helps show how people personally mentally classify weapons
Dave’s beard is making him look more and more like Jonathan over the years
Classic MW2...Akimbo G18 with FMJ secondary with Barett ACOG as primary...absolutely absurd weapon loadout that allows OHKs at a distance (without losing FOV) and taking out entire groups at moderate to short range with the secondary. It was so good that my LAN group ended up banning the G18 outright, and banning the use of the ACOG with the Barrett as literally everyone was using a variation of that loadout.
I got the opportunity to fire a MAC-10 once, and the most memorable thing where the constant jams I got over the day. It wasn't particularily fun. I always liked a standard AR-15 or even a Steyr AUG more then SMG's.
Submachineguns and special forces have this connection because in most of their ops, the point is to get as close as possible and as quietly as possible.
MP5SD, while not as quiet as in games, is a ridiculously silent weapon. Meaning that if you do actually have to use it you don't immediately tell everyone in the AO that you're there.
Also, Submachineguns are more compact and maneuverable when clearing rooms and corners. It also is almost always lighter than SBRs and carbines and has lighter ammo and magazines.
This does not mean that SOF units don't use rifles. They do.
You would see subs vs rifles/carbines be more of a thing if games would actually make their heft and size and lenght of pull be an actual thing. And in fast paced shooters it is never going to happen, thus they seem more powerful.
I'm so glad this series exists. It's nice to have a way to indulge in the interest without having to listen to some cringy fetishist
Growing up in the 1980s, the HK MP5 was the rock star of the age and in the early 90s rainbow six games only cemented into the cool factor in the brain. Currently, when I play speedball paintball, I use my MP5 pb marker due to the ergonomics. There are few guns that feel as good as the. MP5. If I had to clear a room, a MP5SD would be my choice.
I loved using the MP5 on COD medium maps. I could "Snipe" with it in single-shot, or close quarters on semi-suto.
Entering 'Office' in Counterstrike with a bunch of grenades and an MP5 is as cool as it gets.
Every game designer seems to think the Kriss vector has to be the most powerful weapon.
This is actually the first time I've seen Mr. Ferguson fires a weapon. That makes him even more awesome!
He does that more and more in the newer videos. Maybe as a reaction to American commenters accusing him of never having fired a gun, on account of being British?
@@Mikebumpful Really? Dang.
@@Mikebumpful In newer seasons we felt it added something special to the narrative, being able to see a real version firing helps illustrate the differences in video game portrayals. And since we had the opportunity to, we have started to explore it more with the help of the Royal Armouries and their range.
as for Tarkov's AP rounds for the SMGs, they still struggle with mid-high tier armors, especially the 9mm ones, with armor piercing 4.6x30 or 5.7x28 still not being able to pen the highest class armors.
I'm still old enough to remember the P90 in counter-strike having a scoped sight... (beta 0.9 I think still had it but it was dropped by v1.0)
Great episode as always though I feel it was a missed opportunity to discuss weapons such as the AAC Honey Badger which are now able to provide the tactical advantages of an SMG whilst in an intermediate cartridge, perhaps something for the future?
The concept of Carbines etc is definitely something that has come up but I think is worth its own discussion, you are totally right though!
Jonathan Ferguson my beloved.
Whats that song that starts playing at 6:16?
Dave is a chill vibe.
😎
I’d argue the M231 is not a PDW as it’s defending the Bradley and NOT the crew/personnel. It’s also used more as an offensive weapon. Therefore neither use meets the original. NATO PDW terms etc… This was oddly discussed on the Forgotten Weapons Reddit very recently and was also the consensus there.
Great video, but no mention of the OG Half-Life MP5. I mean, it had a grenade launcher! I’ll have that thump sound in my head forever.
Boy do we have a video for you coming soon!
@@IrregularDave ohlalaaa, looking forward to it!
Jonathan
Hear me out
Submachine Gun: Pistol caliber, automatic capability, magazine in front of the trigger group
Machine Piatol: Pistol caliber, automatic capability, magazine behind the trigger group
In games it's always the speed//fire rate of smgs that make them op
Would like to see the guns of MGS1 b/c of the recent Master Collection rerelease.
Ah. Cartridge power wise, you are right to categorize things like MP7 or P90 as SMGs. However, both those guns have muzzle velocity much more comparable to the original AK-47, which is decidedly a rifle. I would argue "sub-intermediate rifle" might be a better term here.
MP7s and P90s are classified as PDWs (personal defense weapons) not SMG.
But then again the term PDW has been expanded , and some say it includes 300blk SBRs, AKS-74Us and MP5Ks
It has been a long debate in regards to terminology. To make it simple SMG: full auto pistol caliber cartridge with *or without stock*. It must have a charging handle. Machine pistols have slides & yes a reciprocating slide affects accuracy performance. No SMG is not a umbrella term however PDW is.
No Max Payne or Division 2?
Tut tut... Nice video, thanks!
Overpenetration isn't really an argument, as 9mm is less frangible than .223, it's sometimes more likely to go thru several thin walls (despite it being worse in defeating body armor). As for a shorter barrel, and less signature, while suppressed, .300BLK is really a better choice. That being said, 9mm PCCs definitely have an appeal to the civilian market, if only for the ammo price.
2:40 is not True lies, the scene is from Commando (1985)
'this is not a plane this is a canoe with wings'