Tbh a moment of any primarch ripping out a greater demons heart roaring "For the Emperor!" is badass as it is... but the Khan? Boy, that scene just lands so flawlessly, because of who Jaghatai is as a person. Because he is one of the most... unknowable but ultimately most human primarchs of them all. Plus his bromance with Sanguinius is so wholesome. I really don't know if I'd be ready for a scene of the Khan waking up to learn of his brothers death. I mean... I want that scene, but damn...
I'll never understand why Big E didn't just allow the remaining Thousand Sons to die in a blaze of glory in the Webway. Both he and Magnus knew the legion was on borrowed time, so why not use that little remaining time to die on their own terms and in a beneficial way? Just imagine the scene of the entire 15th legion charging the hordes of Chaos, powers fully unleashed with no fear of death.
Because GW wanted them to be traitors. The writers made Big E unreasonable because they had to. Same with Lorgar, Angron and the others. This is what happens when you write a story with a predetermined outcome.
@@sovereigneverblight5825True that is but still a shame, of all the traitor primarchs who could have been redeemed Magnus up till that point seemed the most likely. Just think it would have been a cool twist near the end having Magnus and the 15th fall defending the Webway Gate. One last act of redemption.
Well yeah that was what the Emperor was saying when he said he had to sacrafice them in order to get a new Legion. That's why Magnus denied him, he's been fighting for his son's lives since literally before the Heresy was even a thought. Then on top of that, they fought and died to collect his shards and put him back together so hey may live, he wasn't about to betray them right after that. That's why Vulkan said he wouldn't have done it either when Magnus turned his head to ask him
I think lorgar and magnus are the two most important primarchs for the emperor to have mishandled. The two of them represent more than all the others what comes next after the dust settles. Magnus's scholarly nature and lorgar's philosophical mind would have put meaning to the struggle of the imperium.
Magnus said one of the dumbest things in the entire heresy "Sometimes you can make a deal with the things in the warp and come out the better". So much for him being the smart one.
@@ironduke5058nah he just wanted to role play as all the gods Nurgle:sitting in chair endlessly. Khorne: many kill in his name endlessly. Tzeentch: he’s constantly playing chess with mortals lives. Slaanesh: enduring eternal suffering
While I can see Magnus being No.1, for me No.2 is the Khan. A Primarch we knew next to nothing about, but as the story progressed he went from being unknowable and detesting his father, to understanding why his father did what he did, and outside of Dorn, being one of the most respected Primarchs at the end of the Heresy
I still don't know what the Emperor expected when he told Magnus "I love you like a son and because of my fatherly love we can have one last chance...oh but you have to kill all YOUR sons that you sacrificed all this for". That was so supremely hypocritical I nearly turned to chaos myself. All he had to do is NOT add in the son-killing bit and he had Magnus at the most crucial time.
Especially since all the original Thousand Son astartes are going to die soon anyway. Truly one of the all-time high moments of the Big E really dropping the ball, right next to not letting Angron win that final battle on the mountaintop of Nuceria (just give him two or three Custodians or even fight by his side yourself, who cares about a day if it gives you back a much less broken primarch than Angron would turn out to be). Still the dumbest thing was not telling the Primarchs "hey guys you know how the Eldar can use the webway and it gives them HUGE tactical advantages as well as making them immune to warp shenanigans? I'm going back to Terra to work on getting that technology for ourselves. Please wrap up the crusade asap and come visit me, I've got a nice villa set aside for each of you on the palace grounds. Love you all xoxo Dad". So very very much problems could have been avoided with so very little extra empathy.
@@wanderhillen2435 He's a bad dad AND a bad manager. Have we seriously contemplated the fact that he might be an idiot? Like a genuinely stupid person with a stupid amount of power? This whole situation has a bit of "Glass Onion" energy, doesn't it?
@@2012sonora It definitely had a couple of uneven bits (I also found the whole Malacador-death-but-not bit really jarring and felt unnecessary). I liked it overall and it had some great bits, but it also left me even more convinced that the Emperor is everyone's worst enemy.
The Great Kahn went from the Steps to the Stars on a great journey with his sons to return to the place of his creation. In his own words “I fight for an Empire who never wanted against an army that would have taken me in a heart beat” His closest brothers Horus fell, then manipulated that fool Rus to attack Magnus. Then the death of Sanguinius. All three of his closest brothers gone. Horus, The Angel, Magnus. Then as was stated above lost his closest sons. But he would manage to stand on Terra as he had vowed to do, even when cornered by the Iron Warriors, Death Guard, Emperors Children. Still he found a way to Terra. FOR THE KHAGAN AND THE EMPEROR.
The fall of Magnus to me, has always been the most tragic. I'm starting to listen to the siege now, currently listening to the Lost and the Damned. Fury of Magnus is going to be an absolute doozie.
I’ve been good with your assertions so far, but I have to take exception to Vulkan. Yes, he had a lot happen to him over the course of the heresy & he was on Terra at the end, but his journey is only interesting in summary. Having to slog through those books was a monumental chore. They are collectively the weakest books in the series - yes, even the Iron Hands vs warp-tainted Dinosaurs novel was better. For that fact alone, Vulkan should be ranked below Robby G.
the thing about Magnus rejecting the emperors offer, Vulkan actually says thats not how it went, and it was Magnus who pleaded with the Emperor but the Emperor said he could not do anything as Magnus had already sold his soul to Tzeentch
I don't know why most people ignore Vulkan's observations on how the conversation went. Seems to me that it was all in Magnus' head so he could justify finally selling his soul completely
A thousand sons is the book that made Magnus my favorite primarch and the other books that I read dont come close to that one for me but Im far from having read them all though. But I dont like traitor primarchs behaving like emotional children as they so often seem to do, loyal primarchs before they turned traitor I find the most interesting. Primarchs not having the control of their emotional state always strikes me as very weird.
I can easily see how all of your rankings are spot on. But as you said, they are subjective, and I could see Sanguinius being seen as number ine as well, being as pivotal as it is to the Heresy. I would guess some people see Dorn as number one, or Guilliman as their personal favorite due to his heroism. But as far as the quality of the writing, your rankings are definitely valid in an objective sense too, something very close to them, anyway!
Top 5 - Magnus - everything he went through Corax - Diddo + the capability to fight the guerrilla war Vulcan - Diddo Sanguinius - to finally read what happened Lorgar - IMO we learned the most about Lorgar, than any other Bottom 5 The Gorgan - as a IH successor player I just wish there was more there Perty - For a top strategists who... always missed the compliments given him... he was out strategized by a IF captain, not even a primarch Fulgrim - agree he fell too quick and was not used throughout but stayed true the ADHD'ness of the lore... squirrel Angron - no depth there... but loved the depth of Kharn Alpha Legion - As you said Rho... I loved the twins, but wish there was more there.
As much as Magnus really did something wrong... you cant help but feel for the fact that he has to choose between killing his beloved father or killing his beloved sons. What sort of twisted shit is that? A true tragedy
Although I can't forgive Magnus for sacrificing the civilians of Prospero for an 'ideal' he abandoned moments later, I do agree with your assessment here. What was the Emperor thinking?! "Just kill your sons, my beloved son, and everything will be all right."
@@warrenoakes4521 the heresy and preheresy primarchs are the least interesting but the preheresy and heresy traitor legions are the most interesting more than the loyalists (except for blood angels)
While lorgar isn't one of my favorite primarchs he does have a great story. But like I said last time magnus story is bad. The moral of never learn from your mistakes and don't grow from them. Is just not to my taste. Love you Rho bit have to disagree with your number one spot. Still think that has to go to Sanguinius. Or maybe Horus. And kurze.
I think Vulkans story is just to silly. Just because he is a perpetual they put him through every death imaginable. No primarch dies of a heart attack but Vulkan, no one dies in a nuclear explosion but Vulkan, no one is tortoured to death ... but Vulkan... It makes it seem like Vulkan dies so easy, because in one book he dies more than all other brother combined...
I will give you 1 & 2, but the Khan at 3? Perturabo and Fulgrim so low? Not a chance. Dorn did nothing during the Heresy except be mad until the traitors got all the way to Terra. Great videos, you always put out quality content, but I just have to disagree with you on those. Perturabo and Fulgrim were there every step from Istvaan V until the gates of the Palace.
The emperor should of accepted his son back and had him and magnus children fight in the webway and they would have got wiped out instead of his custodes and could have possibly helped in the vengeful Spirit for less collateral damage
Tbh a moment of any primarch ripping out a greater demons heart roaring "For the Emperor!" is badass as it is... but the Khan? Boy, that scene just lands so flawlessly, because of who Jaghatai is as a person. Because he is one of the most... unknowable but ultimately most human primarchs of them all. Plus his bromance with Sanguinius is so wholesome. I really don't know if I'd be ready for a scene of the Khan waking up to learn of his brothers death. I mean... I want that scene, but damn...
I'll never understand why Big E didn't just allow the remaining Thousand Sons to die in a blaze of glory in the Webway. Both he and Magnus knew the legion was on borrowed time, so why not use that little remaining time to die on their own terms and in a beneficial way? Just imagine the scene of the entire 15th legion charging the hordes of Chaos, powers fully unleashed with no fear of death.
That would be pretty dope.
Honestly I agree would have been the best redemption arch of the setting. And a much needed reinforcement for the loyalist cause.
Because GW wanted them to be traitors. The writers made Big E unreasonable because they had to. Same with Lorgar, Angron and the others.
This is what happens when you write a story with a predetermined outcome.
@@sovereigneverblight5825True that is but still a shame, of all the traitor primarchs who could have been redeemed Magnus up till that point seemed the most likely. Just think it would have been a cool twist near the end having Magnus and the 15th fall defending the Webway Gate. One last act of redemption.
Well yeah that was what the Emperor was saying when he said he had to sacrafice them in order to get a new Legion. That's why Magnus denied him, he's been fighting for his son's lives since literally before the Heresy was even a thought. Then on top of that, they fought and died to collect his shards and put him back together so hey may live, he wasn't about to betray them right after that. That's why Vulkan said he wouldn't have done it either when Magnus turned his head to ask him
I think lorgar and magnus are the two most important primarchs for the emperor to have mishandled. The two of them represent more than all the others what comes next after the dust settles. Magnus's scholarly nature and lorgar's philosophical mind would have put meaning to the struggle of the imperium.
Magnus said one of the dumbest things in the entire heresy "Sometimes you can make a deal with the things in the warp and come out the better". So much for him being the smart one.
Lorgar is smarter than Magnus, unironically
Smart and wise are not the same thing.
The Emperor did.... That's what he meant.
@@SeaBass215AMThe Emperor got the Heresy and got turned into a corpse on a torture chair. You sure he was talking about him?
@@ironduke5058nah he just wanted to role play as all the gods Nurgle:sitting in chair endlessly. Khorne: many kill in his name endlessly. Tzeentch: he’s constantly playing chess with mortals lives. Slaanesh: enduring eternal suffering
While I can see Magnus being No.1, for me No.2 is the Khan. A Primarch we knew next to nothing about, but as the story progressed he went from being unknowable and detesting his father, to understanding why his father did what he did, and outside of Dorn, being one of the most respected Primarchs at the end of the Heresy
I still don't know what the Emperor expected when he told Magnus "I love you like a son and because of my fatherly love we can have one last chance...oh but you have to kill all YOUR sons that you sacrificed all this for". That was so supremely hypocritical I nearly turned to chaos myself.
All he had to do is NOT add in the son-killing bit and he had Magnus at the most crucial time.
Especially since all the original Thousand Son astartes are going to die soon anyway. Truly one of the all-time high moments of the Big E really dropping the ball, right next to not letting Angron win that final battle on the mountaintop of Nuceria (just give him two or three Custodians or even fight by his side yourself, who cares about a day if it gives you back a much less broken primarch than Angron would turn out to be).
Still the dumbest thing was not telling the Primarchs "hey guys you know how the Eldar can use the webway and it gives them HUGE tactical advantages as well as making them immune to warp shenanigans? I'm going back to Terra to work on getting that technology for ourselves. Please wrap up the crusade asap and come visit me, I've got a nice villa set aside for each of you on the palace grounds. Love you all xoxo Dad". So very very much problems could have been avoided with so very little extra empathy.
@@wanderhillen2435 He's a bad dad AND a bad manager. Have we seriously contemplated the fact that he might be an idiot? Like a genuinely stupid person with a stupid amount of power?
This whole situation has a bit of "Glass Onion" energy, doesn't it?
I don't think Graham McNeil did a great job with that book tbh
@@2012sonora It definitely had a couple of uneven bits (I also found the whole Malacador-death-but-not bit really jarring and felt unnecessary). I liked it overall and it had some great bits, but it also left me even more convinced that the Emperor is everyone's worst enemy.
And it got retconned afterwards. Emps told him to buzz off.
The Great Kahn went from the Steps to the Stars on a great journey with his sons to return to the place of his creation. In his own words “I fight for an Empire who never wanted against an army that would have taken me in a heart beat” His closest brothers Horus fell, then manipulated that fool Rus to attack Magnus. Then the death of Sanguinius. All three of his closest brothers gone. Horus, The Angel, Magnus. Then as was stated above lost his closest sons. But he would manage to stand on Terra as he had vowed to do, even when cornered by the Iron Warriors, Death Guard, Emperors Children. Still he found a way to Terra. FOR THE KHAGAN AND THE EMPEROR.
The fall of Magnus to me, has always been the most tragic. I'm starting to listen to the siege now, currently listening to the Lost and the Damned. Fury of Magnus is going to be an absolute doozie.
The stupidity of Magnus is more like it. Shoulda listened to dad about not fucking with the warp
@@lordcurze Also true, pretty arrogant for a guy with one eye.
Vulkan lives!
STOMP STOMP
Yes he does brother and together we will find him and bring him back.
@@SSGfishbobfollow me bruda I kno da whay
Fun series. I loved it.
I'd probably flip Khan and Vulkan's positions, but I'm biased toward the Salamanders in general lolz
VULKAN LIVES!!! *stomp stomp*
I’ve been good with your assertions so far, but I have to take exception to Vulkan. Yes, he had a lot happen to him over the course of the heresy & he was on Terra at the end, but his journey is only interesting in summary. Having to slog through those books was a monumental chore. They are collectively the weakest books in the series - yes, even the Iron Hands vs warp-tainted Dinosaurs novel was better. For that fact alone, Vulkan should be ranked below Robby G.
My thought as well, doesn’t help that for me Vulcan felt one of the most “plot device” heavy primarchs outside of maybe Angron after his demon hood.
Great stuff Rho!
the thing about Magnus rejecting the emperors offer, Vulkan actually says thats not how it went, and it was Magnus who pleaded with the Emperor but the Emperor said he could not do anything as Magnus had already sold his soul to Tzeentch
I don't know why most people ignore Vulkan's observations on how the conversation went. Seems to me that it was all in Magnus' head so he could justify finally selling his soul completely
A thousand sons is the book that made Magnus my favorite primarch and the other books that I read dont come close to that one for me but Im far from having read them all though. But I dont like traitor primarchs behaving like emotional children as they so often seem to do, loyal primarchs before they turned traitor I find the most interesting. Primarchs not having the control of their emotional state always strikes me as very weird.
Hai Chogoris!
For the Khan!
Keep up the good work!!!
Had a feeling Magnus would be close to the top.
I can easily see how all of your rankings are spot on. But as you said, they are subjective, and I could see Sanguinius being seen as number ine as well, being as pivotal as it is to the Heresy. I would guess some people see Dorn as number one, or Guilliman as their personal favorite due to his heroism. But as far as the quality of the writing, your rankings are definitely valid in an objective sense too, something very close to them, anyway!
Could you cover the journeys of other protagonists in the Horus Heresy? And their impact on the setting?
Nick Kyme ruined Vulkan! If you took all of his dialogue, throughout the entire Heresy - you wouldn't be able to fill a single page.
3rd, the keshig approve of this position.
A Interaction for the Interaction God, a Comment for the Comment Throne, for the Almighty Algorithm
Top 5 -
Magnus - everything he went through
Corax - Diddo + the capability to fight the guerrilla war
Vulcan - Diddo
Sanguinius - to finally read what happened
Lorgar - IMO we learned the most about Lorgar, than any other
Bottom 5
The Gorgan - as a IH successor player I just wish there was more there
Perty - For a top strategists who... always missed the compliments given him... he was out strategized by a IF captain, not even a primarch
Fulgrim - agree he fell too quick and was not used throughout but stayed true the ADHD'ness of the lore... squirrel
Angron - no depth there... but loved the depth of Kharn
Alpha Legion - As you said Rho... I loved the twins, but wish there was more there.
As much as Magnus really did something wrong... you cant help but feel for the fact that he has to choose between killing his beloved father or killing his beloved sons. What sort of twisted shit is that? A true tragedy
It would be great to see a "What-If" for if Magnus had said "Yes"
Although I can't forgive Magnus for sacrificing the civilians of Prospero for an 'ideal' he abandoned moments later, I do agree with your assessment here. What was the Emperor thinking?! "Just kill your sons, my beloved son, and everything will be all right."
Vulcan lives!
If only Magnus had been a good boy and chilled on the throne for a few millennia.
Good choices 😊
How you could have Khan above Dorn blows my mind.
For The Kharn!
No 1 magnus
No 2 Vulkan
No 3 Lorgar
No 4 Jagati
Magnus should be the next traitor primarch to get a spotlight and time to shine. Followed up by the return of Leman Russ.
lorgar wasnt even the most influential word bearer in the heresy the main bad guy was erebus
All the chaos primarchs are completely disrespected, and aren’t even second in command, cos they’re complete losers xD
@@warrenoakes4521 the heresy and preheresy primarchs are the least interesting but the preheresy and heresy traitor legions are the most interesting more than the loyalists (except for blood angels)
While lorgar isn't one of my favorite primarchs he does have a great story. But like I said last time magnus story is bad. The moral of never learn from your mistakes and don't grow from them. Is just not to my taste. Love you Rho bit have to disagree with your number one spot. Still think that has to go to Sanguinius. Or maybe Horus. And kurze.
I'm predicting Magnus will be top
Have to agree entirely with Magnus being far and away the best heresy story
Overall the traitor primarchs were more interesting to me as their stories were more tragic.
It's too bad chaos has to act stupidly for the Imperium to win.
The Khan... "Superior".
I think Vulkans story is just to silly. Just because he is a perpetual they put him through every death imaginable.
No primarch dies of a heart attack but Vulkan, no one dies in a nuclear explosion but Vulkan, no one is tortoured to death ... but Vulkan...
It makes it seem like Vulkan dies so easy, because in one book he dies more than all other brother combined...
I dig it
THE WARHAWK
I'm close with your top 3, but for me it would be Magnus, Lorgar and Angron with Perturabo in a close 4th.
I will give you 1 & 2, but the Khan at 3? Perturabo and Fulgrim so low? Not a chance. Dorn did nothing during the Heresy except be mad until the traitors got all the way to Terra. Great videos, you always put out quality content, but I just have to disagree with you on those. Perturabo and Fulgrim were there every step from Istvaan V until the gates of the Palace.
⚡️⚡️⚡️⚡️⚡️
ALGORITHM
Magnus's story contains nothing wrong.
All traitor primachs should be higher.
Lorgar has the most interesting story of all the primarchs and leman Russ is the worst primarch 😮
Also Léman Russ is the worst
Vulkan!!
The emperor should of accepted his son back and had him and magnus children fight in the webway and they would have got wiped out instead of his custodes and could have possibly helped in the vengeful Spirit for less collateral damage