MASSIVE correction here on the relationship between Lorgar and Kor Pharon: The beatings were emotional and brutal, Lorgar 'allowing' them because he was trying to learn about any good or truth, and breaking down more than once trying understand it and it's contradictions. It wasn't 'like a nephew kicking your knee', as soon a Kor learned it didn't have that much of a physical effect he had multiple full grown men beat lorgar until his entire body was bleeding, broken and unresponsive. Lorgar also had multiple full on seizures by not knowing or comprehending his psychic abilities, going unconscious and having severe pain that he rationalized as his god talking to him. He didn't Choose to be abused, and it's pretty sad to try and rationalize anything in that book as him choosing pain, when he was only trying to understand the world. He's above Perturabo for sure, minimum.
I find it really bad that by the time they rated Lorgar, he was rated lower than Ferrus. Why? Anyways, a few points I think should be mentioned would be that each Primarch had aspects; and Lorgar's was devotion. And that object of devotion was what pretty much drove him to chaos despite growing up on a chaos worshipping planet
Lorgar...is one that I will always curse for what he became but just from our own world's past and current history, zealotry truly is a poison as Chaos has shown time and time again and he knew nothing else and had no true way out before the poison had taken hold so even though he saw the light of the Imperial Truth, he could not ever accept it because his own flaws had been exploited to breaking point. I hate him, but I can see why he did what he did.
The only I don't agree is Vulkan, even if he's written ajusted and well, he saw the destruction of his legion in Istavaan V, he had to destroy and effigy of Ferrus Manus witnessing the fall of the Iron Hands. Got tortured to oblivion, felt unimaginable pain entering Macragges obrit. Vulkan had to help Rogal put the Emperor on the throne. He even left the Salamanders. I don't think he's right in the head. Nick Kyme did him a disservice.
I think the biggest tragedy of magnus is that hes the primarch who least wanted to fall. The one who tried his hardest to help his father and mankind. The one with the purest intentions. Yet hes one of the only ones i cant imagine having a good ending. Just by the nature of tzeetch. He didn’t have a chance from the start. And the emperor didn’t even equip him to try. The man had to outplay an almost all knowing and all powerful god of schemes and wasn't even told the god existed in the first place. The emperor made a fish, warned it of crabs, then threw it in a sharktank. Of course there are things he could have done differently. But somehow i doubt tzeetch would have allowed him to get into contact with russ . Or communicate with terra through some other means. Or glean any information from the warp that doesn't reinforce his worst ideas
Coraxs whole sadness gets entirely fucking cut off at the knees with that haphazard hamfuckingfisted reference to Edgar Allan Poe with "Nevermore". It felt like a 15yo wrote that.
Leman had his loyalty manipulated into almost killing his brother and kickstarting the heresy, that’s gotta at least be superhuman sad for primarch tragedies.
Dorn was able to defy Khorne by drawing on his idea of "Just" war. Dorn has a foundational belief that war can be waged for a good reason, directly contradicting Khorne's idea of slaughter for slaughter's sake.
What's even worse for Perturabo is that some of his men ignored his order to burn down his home world/decimate it. He learns of this after the fact when a space marine captain tells him that some of the men disobeyed the order. When Perturabo hears this he smiles briefly (presumably proud of them for disobeying his order) The space marine captain is confused by this and continues to tell Perturabo "Don't worry we killed them all of the for their disobedience." Fixed grammar. 'Tell me not all of them did as I bade unquestioningly,' said Perturabo. Forrix hesitated. 'There were a few rebellious elements, my lord.' Perturabo smiled thinly, as if this were a good thing. The first captain continued. 'They have been dealt with. Please, attend to my words. You must return to the fleet.'
I would argue for Fulgrim to be a bit higher, he actually got married a few times while he was on Chemos and even loved his wives, but he just kept outliving them, and he ended up becoming desensitised to them until he just stopped getting married. I just think that’s really sad
I wish we got more of him before his fall to see how he truly wished to uplift imperial society. We needed a real moment similar to (I will always bring up Bezerk when talking about Fulgrim because he is Griffith of 40K, prove me wrong) the Bonfire of dreams scene where he speaks of his dream, no putting his image first, not letting his jealousy get a word in, just a true, honest expression of what he sees for humanity.
i think you guys forgot that corax grew up as a slave and essentially pulled an angron type rebellion. his worked sure, but given everything that happens during the heresy, i do think that he deserves a depresso espresso. whereas kurze definitely deserves a truly traumatised (under angron ofc). his entire personality is essentially a coping mechanism to a lifetime of trauma. and tbh, i think that everyone in superhuman sad except guilliman and alpharius deserves to go to espresso depresso, with lorgar at the bottom of that tier
To be fair, there is one single moment is 40k where Angron is happy... and it's when he dies after destroying the Choral Engine, and Khorne silences the Nails and gives him true peace until he reforms.
Magnus was supposed to sit the Golden Throne. His loyalty and arrogance led him to destroy Big E's web way project while trying to warn him of Horus. He didn't turn; he backed himself into a corner.
Not really. He did break through then… things get complicated. His soul shattered, and well the shards that continued were there to warn him and continued to shatter after when they tried to restore his soul. He kept shattering- destroying and sabotaging himself until his death. The nobel shard was on Terra while many were scattered
By far the biggest tragedy was when Mortarion had to resort to sticking his plasma pistol in watermelons for decades after Guilliman stranded him on a backwater as punishment for his beautiful poetry about his mother.
45:57 that was me, the “customer is right in matters of taste”. I used to run a pizza place, the owners never trained me when they promoted me to run the store. My rule was, “respect my staff and we will respect you”. I had not issue with remaking an order, especially if WE messed up. The owners didn’t appreciate my goal of improving morale, so I quit on them. If you don’t care about your staff, then I don’t care about you, OR you business.
The main issue of my store was hiring more people so people could get time off. Last I heard, that location hasn’t made a profit in several months. My ONLY reaction is: good!
I feel like this is unfair to Corvus. He had to put down his own raptor sons because they were mutated. He fought hard to let them live, considered them true sons. It truly broke him, and he was already pretty broken up. Corvus has similar ideals to Mortarion and still got screwed over. He wanted freedom, and all he got was the death of his sons via mutation, betrayal, and his own gene seed defects. His last act was throwing himself to the warp to hunt Lorgar for SOME measure of retribution. Man's given up on his own future in the hopes of taking down the killer of his legion. That's pretty dang tragic.
@@Sorrel-Fox Corvus had an enormous amount of the Emperor's trust and respect. Just tossed him the keys to the Palace's greatest secrets. Must be the Shaman in each of them.
The only reason Vulkan is so low on this is bad writing. If James Workshop actually had a cohesive vision for all this besides 'and in the end, most people are dead', Vulkan would be a broken but powerful hero, and Ferrus would have more than half a book.
Vulkan should be 40K’s epitome of a good person living in a world that wants to beat him into the mould of terrible bastards, and the struggles that come with that imo.
One key detail I'm not sure shows up all that well in most discussion of Perturabo, is *regret*. He regrets his actions at Olympia, as can quite clearly be seen once it is over. Likewise, during the well known "bashing Fulgrim's face into a Warhammer mini" scene, Perturabo makes multiple statements regarding Vulkan. You could interpret this as Perturabo respecting Vulkan. At the same time, however, this is after Perturabo nukes Vulkan very much with the intent to kill, and when that fails, hands Vulkan over Curze for torture, and when that continues to fail, builds a duplicate of the maze Perturabo's workshop is kept in to assist with the torture. This certainly doesn't scream respect. The seeming reason Perturabo is complimenting Vulkan, is by comparison to Fulgrim. Fulgrim has thrown away his craft, Vulkan has perfected it. Fulgrim is selfish, Vulkan is selfless. The Perturabo discussion about Vulkan is Perturabo's regret at the situation he has put himself into, having joined the side of lunatics, comparing who he is with to the alternative.
I feel like people don’t consider enough that while yeah, Magnus’ pride and ego lead him into making a lot of mistakes, the whole reason that all happened is because he was singled out by FUCKING TZEENTCH, the GOD of TRICKERY and DECEIT. It’s like shitting on your friend because he got outplayed in a game of chess by Magnus Carlsen
Great point, C.unterpoint. Magnus was the only primarch with advantage of knowing about chaos and warning from his father to not talk to the spice squid. They even had the whole family intervention to cut his warp cable. Better analogy would be making fun of a friend who challenged Magnus Carlsen at chess and losed by mat in 3, which is perfectly valid reaction.
Despite being one of the most stoic primarchs, Jagathai has some heartbreaking moments. He had his three oldest friends all die, each of whom was trying to help him, even if some did not have the right info. He had to personally kill his sons who took a vow of honor, hating himself and the war for forcing such circumstances. He had to see the desolation of Prospero, and see the shattered shade of Magnus, learning slowly about the truth of the Heresy, and then forced to fight against Mortarion. And then all throughout the Siege of Terra, he’s forced to helplessly lose ground, defend further and further, giving up on parts of the palace and those who were defending it, resulting in his own painful half-death.
Come on guys....Hal knows what's up...Curze was COMPLETELY alone....imagine if the Knights of Caliban had never found the Lion and Luther hadn't brought him in and cared for him.....How would the Lion have ended up ? Probably completely feral and unable to relate to any other person he shares a genetic link to.
People hate other people that are fond of themselves, probably some derivative of the crabs in a barrel urge. Fulgrim unironically is one of the most goated primarchs, only surpassed by guys like guilliman and sanguinius. He's a great fighter, great statesman, great general, he's one of the primarchs who can be useful outside of war unlike several who only know how to be good fighters and warlords. He's great by every metric.
@@plasticbag4102 he conquered a full planet with a handful of soldiers, which granted is not advisable but the fact he was capable of doing it I think shows he was a crazy good strategist and general. The decision to do such a thing might not be outstanding strategy on his part but I don't think he did it out of logic, he did it for ego, which was always an issue for him.
@@jebrooks and unknown little fun fact, hes one of the few thats not too arrogant to learn from mortals, marines, or other primarchs. Hes insecure and acts arrogant at points, but if you look at his whole character before being corrupted hes about as open and humble as it gets. Meanwhile when Dorn gets told someone betrayed the emperor he almost beats them to death but hes the level headed guy
Your question at the end about returning Primearchs made me think this: if you did a Corvus BirdMan warp entity kit, you could make it a 2 for 1 and have an alternative build option be Sanguinius. Treat both as these weird Warp Entities that fight Chaos in time of need like Celestine due to the Eye of Terror expanding.
That would be a fantastic kitbash. I already love the idea that the Warp seems to be in the process of reincarnating Sanguinius to begin with, so to mix him in with Corvax would be *great.*
Just finished Hammer of Olympia a little while ago and Perturabo isn’t actually all that sympathetic. His foster father wasn’t a great guy but he did try so many times to connect with Perty in his own way. But the two could never seem to understand one another and the politics of the world did play a part. Perturabo’s sister brings up excellent points about just how little Perturabo tried to fit in or understand others. And Olympia was noncompliant in the loosest sense. They just wanted to chat and get a better deal for their world cause Perturabo kept getting all their soldiers killed. They were starting to suffer from serious depopulation issues. Then he came back and killed them all. Also. The fact they wanted to put Kurze lower because he didn’t try to improve his situation when Perturabo is the definition of that kind of behavior and he got a lot of sympathy is crazy. Lol
Maybe I'm just neurodivergent as fuck, but Magnus botching every major descision he has to make is relatable. He may be an arrogant prick, but he genuinely cared, and his potential was immense. Some people just aren't practical or savvy enough to think quickly when they feel they are forced to act. I'm not saying Magnus is good by 40k standards, but he is easily one of the the most human Primarchs to me. It's clear to me that Magnus simply wasn't a leader type. He probably would have done far better as an advisor, or better yet, as a beacon on the Golden Throne.
Yeah, agreed. Magnus to me embodies the idea of "I care too much and therefore I cannot take not doing something". This leads him to constantly act when he should have waited. He's very emotional in a way that I find very human and it sets him apart from his brothers, many of which feel like they are above it all
Not only they didn't want to do Monarchia but even when they are ordered to do it, they do it in the most Ultramarine way possible. They give the citizens a week to leave, the assist them in leaving, they patrol the city to make sure that anyone who wanted to leave but couldn't did so and only then bombard it. Honestly, Monarchia is a tragedy only to the mind of the average Word Bearer and Word Bearer fanboi. At worst, it was a slap on the wrist
@raushan3443 The people that died as well as the priestess who was blinded were amongst those that stayed because of they wanted to and represented maybe 1% of the whole city, perhaps less. If you want more details, you can pick up First Heretic, it's a very good book.
I'd put Leman higher on the list atleast to dreary demi-god. Next to Dorn he took the loss of the Emperor very hard to the point ran from his broken form in grief and shame that he couldn't save him, he got furious with Constantine Valdor a long time friend on not getting atleast angry at the fact the emperor is 'dead' and he was grieving the loss of his brother and rival Lion'El Jonson in a space wolf short story where this space wolf was going through the trails and found leman in a cave drinking alone. I agree that Leman had a pretty good upbringing but hes been through the ringer with losing his brothers, the emperor and even his sons when he couldn't take out Horus and his sons had to bail him out which he didn't want. But as the rest of the brothers go next to Vulkan he makes a great sounding board by convincing Corvus not to sacrifice himself cause he found out hes made of the warp and Leman told Corvus he got stabbed with the Dionysian spear and chose to face Horus anyway despite knowing the truth of his existence and let Lion vent to Leman by letting himself get stabbed which I imagine hurt like a mf. TLDR Leman has been through shit during the Heresy and came out of it ashamed and losing brothers left and right including his dad and despite taking the blows he had to be atleast be there for his brothers that where left since Corvus was suicidal and Lion was just unfamiliar with the feeling of losing someone close and could quite process the feeling and just took it out on Leman cause he of all people could understand him.
I think Fulgrim is Superhuman Sad, because his downfall is an accident. Taking his Primarch book as context, he was a noble leader who made the bettering of lives one of his biggest motivations. The Laer Blade corrupted him, he became a thrall of his worst impulses via Slaneesh. If he never took that sword, he could have been the Imperium's greatest asset.
Magnus shots himself in the foot but at the same time a lot of Magnus's crash out could've been avoided if the Emperor had just told him about Chaos earlier. Not excusing the dumb stuff he's done but I always saw Magnus's fall as one of Big E's bigger mistakes because it was easier to solve than most of the other traitor primarchs
He did though? Like he explicitly warned him about fucking with the warp, sure he didn't tell him about the chaos gods, but he out and out told him not to do exactly what his dumbass did.
I have a trick for keeping track of Alpharius and Omegon. "Alpharius Omegon" was found first, took the name Omegon, and is now Alpharius again. "Omegon Alpharius" was found last, took the name Alpharius, and was killed by Dorn.
@Wh40kk This is the part where I go all Perturabo and say "there's power in a name" lol. But, there is. Most people use "first" and "last" because it's the foundational delineation between them. But "Alpharius" means first, and "Omegon" means last. So "the first who is last," and "the last who was first" seems fitting to me.
The real tragedy is that sanguinius the most noble and honorable of the primarchs was given to the legion of cannibals and berserkers, and he had to reshape them, in a lot of cases personally working to help them then seeing so many die, and in the end knowing his death has cursed all the remaining ones
Some primarchs like corvus are just extensions of their legion, But sanguinis is interesting because he's one of those primarks that are actually quite different from his legion and took great efforts to reshape their culture
@@klaykid117 I'm not deep in the lore, but I think Sanguinius did have a great rage within him. It could be that he was like his sons, but more adjusted, and he worked to help his sons similarly temper their rage
Konrad completely belongs to cry me a river, bc at one point in one of his books where we see his life on Nostramo at one point he had 2 possible futures as he was about to kill a child. 1 future was that if he hesitates the kid will run away and then grow up to kill him, and the 2nd future was that if he forgives the kid he would become the robin to his batman and he would be able to show him how to forgive people and grow as a person. And after he kills the kid, it's discovered that the kid did not have the weapon that he saw in the 1st future.
Don't stop telling guests to say they're gay, its funny. Of course Guilliman is saving the Imperium, he's a well-adjusted human being. Do you know how rare that is in 40k? I maintain my position that Fulgrim fell the furthest of all the traitors.
Honestly surprised lorgar isn’t higher He had so much against him and still was the most loyal during the crusade He was hand picked by chaos to be their herald He was raised on a planet that believed in chaos But He still converted said planet to worship the emperor and followed him only to be betrayed he turned out good against all the odds and was still rejected
Konrad 1:25:31 blew up his own planet when they went back to crime after begging him to come back for YEARS so no I’ve got 0 mercy for him as he had a bad beginning but everything else was his decisions only even Fought Lion and torture Vulkan thinking he could turn his brother crazy
Vulkan lives in the most inhospitable and hostile planet of almost any primarch other then callaban and fenris and Barbaras He suffered from shit head writing
Honestly I disagree with where Angron is placed. Because he chose to be a tyrannical monster, even through everything he experienced. His son's didn't get his gladiators killed and yet he subjected them to his torture. Hell, Conrad is more tragic then him.
Naw, I would say he didn't have a choice because of the butcher's nails. There was no choice because the Emperor took all of them away from him. He didn't bother to take Angron's nails out because he deemed Angron too broken and the removal not worth the effort. Same with the rebel gladiators that Angron escaped with. Are you telling me Big E couldn't have spared a few extra combat suits or spun up the teleporter one more time to evacuate them along with Angron? He could have secured a loyal (albiet short lived) primarch and legion if he pulled just a little bit more effort for Angron.
@RetroRadianceLight To be fair, if Big E acted like any amout of a father he wouldn't have had the heresy happen. Mortarian and Angron are both great examples of Big E's inability to read the room and act accordingly.
But Conrad did try "good" and then it turned just like in his visions , stuff got worse as soon as he was gone. Plus yes he and Sang had visions, but Sang was instantly beloved by all. Conrad was the opposit. To a point where terran officials send assassins to kill him. Which was before Horus got corrupted.
@@piotrjeske4599 Konrad's precognition was far stronger than Sanguinius'. Talos the Soulhunter' visions were very powerful for an Astartes. It was killing him.
Pert is defo a Cry me a River Primarch. He has a lot of good parts but his fall aint that amazing, he has some shit jobs, but he doesnt have the hardest or most dangerous, he wishes he could spend more time building even though he absolutely could, as we've seen every other Primarch that wanted to do things outside of war, found time to do things outside of war. If Lorgar can secretly prop up a religion, Guilliman can turn every world he visits into a matropalis, Dorn can fortify and leave most worlds in a better state than he left them, Magnus can go around doing whatever he wants, Fulgrim can peruse the arts with his sons, Vulkan and Ferrus can find time to make all kinds of things. I think Perturabo could have found the time to build the occasional Amphitheatre, instead he just felt sorry for himself and wished he got more recognition for his ability to do things he never actually found the time to do. Plenty of Primarchs had worlds they had personally worked on and were proud off, Lorgar had Monarchia, Guilliman had Calth, Fulgrim had the Perfect City, Magnus had Tizca. Pert had the time to read on terra and bond with the Emperor over a shared interest in ancient wisdom, same with Magnus, but he never found the time for any of his grander projects and frankly never put himself out there. He may be depresso, but it's entirely his fault, he's more self-sabotaging than anything, he wants recognition but doesnt put himself out there to be seen, he wants praise but doesnt do anything or highlight anything he's done to warrent praise, instead, what little he does, he expects someone on the other side of the galaxy to go out of there way to discover, appreciate and then praise. So Perturabo, without a doubt, can cry me a river. Also after everything that happened in the Heresy, I think Corvus could warrant Depresso Espresso after his legion got massacred and he had to personally put down a chunk of the men he'd recruited during the heresy because of their mutations. Also his gene-flaw is literally depression. Also Lion gets way to much shade here, and it's worth noting, of all the Primarchs with a parental figure, he's the only one who's parental figure not only betrayed him, but was nearly an accessory to an assassination attempt and was then later fully betrayed by said father figure. The Lion didn't give pert the siege engines because he had an ego, he did it because he knew Pert was the best man to use them and to gain Perts favour for the future, it had the benefit of being the most pragmatic and effective decision militarily, and gained him some political support in the process. Nemiels death was just straight up bad writing and completely wasted the story potential of Nemial and Zahariel, and is completely dropped, it just should not have happened. Also worth noting, Kurze, in-lore, is straight up given in-universe plot armour as his excuse for not being clapped by the Lion, people tend to overlook this, especially kurze fans, because it basically confirms the Lion should be able to take Kurze but simply wasnt allowed to kill him because plot/fate didnt let him, which is why, when he decides to take him alive, wipes the floor with him. Lion deserves Dreary, Corvus deserves Depresso Espresso and Pert can cry me a river.
He didn't have time to build anything though. Just tinkered between missions. His masterwork of a city that served to host the Council at Nikaea was promptly torn down after being used to trial Magnus (his only warmly retatable brother) for Witchcraft. The rest recorded the Iron Warriors as an un-named ally for nutcracking the hardest compliances. The Emperor looked sadly upon him during their reunion on the mountain. "Your road will be hard. But few are worthy of it.”, said the emperor, “I have many tasks for you. The indefatigable. The indomitable. The unrelenting. You shall be my Lord of Iron.” Perturabo almost climbed into lower orbit on that mountain to met his real Dad, and risked falling the last minutes oxygen deprived. The other brothers (except Mortarion) were visited in nicer, economical ways. Perturabo was too overwhelmed with love and awe to care. That was betrayed in the name of utility. Corvus had a nice college dorm style visit from Big E. He saw Big E as a regular dude. The Truth was hacked by Corvus' gifts. Guilliman "Big E's Last Tool, His Last Hope) said to the dying Frater Mattieu. "The Emperor uses people." Ohh Perturabo got USED...Bigly. Big E, Brothers, All Four Chaos gods. : )
But Perturabo did grow up on a fairly civilized world, and had a loving family. He was a huge jerk. The Lion was no less the giant dickhead, and still quietly respected but disliked socially.
Perterabo had the worst sieges, the worst battles and he was the most deserving of praise yet he was always looked down upon. He was nothing more than a tool for others to use and discard as they saw fit. Yet still he carried on and did not break. He hard carried the Horus heresy and siege of terra, fought Daemon Angron and Fulgrim, won then gave them a verbal beat down only to then get soul cancer. The bloke is seeping in tragedy.
@@SomersetDrinker Theres several problems with this. His entire thing was Sieges and the way he fought and lead his men was entirely up too him, fighting with gruelling attrition tactics all the time is on Pert. He didnt have the worst battles at all, he had one notably gruelling campaign, much of Perts resentment was down to his legion being spread thin because they built so many forts and left small garrisons to defend, and the Iron Warriors themselves resented being put on Guard Duty. They didnt get the shit jobs that nobody wanted to do because they we're the hardest, they were literally just given more guard duty than most other Legions, with the exception of the Fists, who didnt complain about Guard Duty, and the Ultramarines who actually liked working on the worlds they took. And Sieges are literally just digging trenches and lobbing shells at the enemy, and occasionally charging in, which, for Iron Warriors, wasnt very risky most of the time. As for the second claim. He absolutely broke, when his world rebelled and he decided to brutally supress it and basically kill everyone, it caused infighting within his Legion, and when he saw his Sister, she basically reminded him that he was meant to be the Emperors Lord of Iron, and that he was just being a petulant child, at which point, he killed her, realized she was completely right, and had a meltdown. Then Horus, who did nothing to make his life easier while he was warmaster, comes along, praises him, and Pert just does whatever he says because he knows the Emperor wont forgive him, and decides double down on being a failure and sides with Horus. He also doesnt carry the Heresy, it's a vastly overblown claim that people parrot far too much at this point. He was lucky enough to have the powerful siege engines given to him by the Lion, the Astartes Anonymous claim that he somehow played to the Lions ego simply isnt true, Lion praised Pert and tried to convince him to back him as the next Warmaster as a political move, and then gave him the siege engines, partly to gain Perts favour politically, but also because Lion knew Pert was the best guy to have them, believing he was still loyal. Pert never has to actually go up against another Primarch, he never has to fight a full Legion because the vast majority of Fists are at Terra, he nearly looses to an Imperial Fist Fleet because he decided to watch the Naval battle from his flagships Hanger bay, and only comes out of the battle as well as he does cause the Fists are ordered to retreat, and follow the order even though their winning the battle and can do irreparable damage to the Iron Warriors and likely even destroy their Flagship, with Pert on it. Hell, a boarding Party of Fists even makes it to the bridge, face to face with Pert. He isnt at Beta Garmon, he isnt at Molech, his legion has a horrible time getting torn up by the Tallarn's and a small amount of space marines from 3 or 4 legions. The most he does is at Terra, which he leaves after being replaced by the Death Guard, who frankly do perfectly fine, the Traitors had all but won without Pert, the only reason they lost was cause Horus died. Frankly, the only Legion that really did less than them was the Emperors Children. The most important thing Pert did was bring Angron into line and have a chunk of his Legion try and slow down the Ultramarines after they get through the Ruinstorm and do his best to lead the Siege effectively, and this was the only time he had to directly compete with a loyalist Primarch. And he didnt bring Fulgrim, that was Lorgar's Job. Meanwhile Mort has to handle the Khan Directly, Curze disctracts the Lion for as long as he can, Lorgar and Angron tag-team the Ultramarines and put up the Ruinstorm to block off the Ultramarines, Blood Angels and Dark Angels so the Traitors can prep for the Siege. The Alpha Legion nearly wipe out the Space Wolves, stop Corvus from making any kind of comeback in the Heresy, and fight a brief guerrilla war against Dorn long before the siege. I could go on, but Pert is absolutely Cry me a River tier, and he didnt carry the Heresy. He has his moments dont get me wrong, but his writing is all over the place. He is one of the least consistently written primarchs and thats saying something.
The thing I've never understood with the Cabal thing, is they're given a choice between a death in a few generations if Horus wins, or a death in 10k years if the Emperor wins.... The obvious answer for me, is the Emperor wins and you get 10K years to solve the problem XD And the xenos lives that would be also destroyed if the Emperor wins don't really matter for the Imperium ^^
Love how just like they mentioned at the beginning, Guilliman randomly ends up right in the middle lol (especially if you count the twins as 2 separate)
Ok, the Lion didn't kill Nemiel for no reason. Their ships were being assaulted by Daemons and the Lion knew he needed the Librarians to use their powers to save the fleet but Nemiel, being a Chaplain was denying the Lion because of the Edict of Nikkea and the Lion did not have time for it and in desperation he lashed out. The act allowed him to save the fleet but he does regret this so it is entirely a tragic act about the cost of command in a definite crisis.
They described it outside of being bleeped as when you expel...stuff (in the case of the models, a noxious looking gas) from every orifice of your body. It's not just gas, it can be other stuff that UA-cam now forces people to bleep needlessly.
About Russ (as nobody in this podcast is ever on his side xD): He had a bad time during Alaxxes, a long episode of instrospection, depression and lost of any sense of being. But, he ends up learning from it (learning in Leman's way, of course). Every time something was wrong with him or something bad happened to him, he never put the blame on others and carried on. And, most importantly, he remembered and wanted everyone else to remember every time he fucked it up. So in that sense is similar to the Lion, indeed: they were able to deal with the bad things on their lives
And, about Fulgrim, I think Arthur Bones has a great argument about his tragedy being the tragedy of drug addiction. Which immediately places himself in the first cathegory
I would like to see a clone of Angron so he wouldnt have the butchers nails and then transfer his soul into that body to see how he would think ofnhis past actions wothout the rage spikes stabbing him in the brain.
55:47 the Alphalegion is tinfoil hat mode what are you talking about. Alpharius and Omegon are two sides of the same coin. Unless it’s their purpose aka sabotage espionage and assassination.
No that’s pretty bog standard alpha legion talking points. I don’t claim to know what’s true but Alpharius and Omegon do have subtlety different personalities
I dunno if I recall correctly. Spoilers for the end and the death. But Dorn is about to give up, to Kohrne, and some space marines, dunno who exactly recall there's 2 hear him through a wall and he's like okay I am not alone or something, and keeps fighting to resist.
no i think it's literally that khorne gets cocky and says "say it, who is the blood for?" and dorn, in his stuborness and desire to cut down all megalomaniacs by 10 pegs just says in his tts voice "No."
Rann and the bringer of sorrow hear him talk to himself, they try to get through to him but they cant. the only thing dorn hears is the sound of battle, khorne and the emperor calling for aid. if i remember correctly cyrene valantion freed him or khorne was just like "okay i get it you will not be my demon primarch" and let him escape
Leman did kinda realise he’d been manipulated into destroying Magnus and the Thousand Sons, not to mention potentially having killed on of the lost primarchs… I wouldn’t rank him super high on the tragedy tier list but I think there are a lot of layers that he kept hidden (particularly with how he deliberately distanced himself from his other brothers and avoided forming any close bonds with them, which is itself part of why we never really get much insight into Russ’ emotional state, he just doesn’t ever really open up about it)
I'm hoping that when Guiliman has his rematch with Fulgrim, he shatters the Laer Blade and not only does it somehow enables a redemption path for Fulgrim but also somehow allows Ferrus to talk to his sons like Sanguinius did to Dante.
Can’t abide that Vulkan rating. The nuances of the story might have been written poorly, but it was definitely tragic. It shouldn’t be a popularity contest on who’s plotline is best.
The biggest tragedy for the Khan was watching or hearing his brothers make the worst decisions possible and he can’t do anything about it
The curse of being a rational man in an irrational universe. It's a miracle he didn't go bugfuck insane sooner...
Didn’t he want to install the nails?? And help kill the world eaters who didn’t
@tufo6306 are you thinking of kharn not the khan
@@tufo6306 jaghatai wanted the butcher's nails?
@@kelakogreenaddict1888he got Kharn from the world eaters and Kahn the white scar Prim confused
I love that Alex is now just a permanent part of the crew
MASSIVE correction here on the relationship between Lorgar and Kor Pharon: The beatings were emotional and brutal, Lorgar 'allowing' them because he was trying to learn about any good or truth, and breaking down more than once trying understand it and it's contradictions. It wasn't 'like a nephew kicking your knee', as soon a Kor learned it didn't have that much of a physical effect he had multiple full grown men beat lorgar until his entire body was bleeding, broken and unresponsive. Lorgar also had multiple full on seizures by not knowing or comprehending his psychic abilities, going unconscious and having severe pain that he rationalized as his god talking to him. He didn't Choose to be abused, and it's pretty sad to try and rationalize anything in that book as him choosing pain, when he was only trying to understand the world. He's above Perturabo for sure, minimum.
I find it really bad that by the time they rated Lorgar, he was rated lower than Ferrus.
Why?
Anyways, a few points I think should be mentioned would be that each Primarch had aspects; and Lorgar's was devotion.
And that object of devotion was what pretty much drove him to chaos despite growing up on a chaos worshipping planet
Lorgar...is one that I will always curse for what he became but just from our own world's past and current history, zealotry truly is a poison as Chaos has shown time and time again and he knew nothing else and had no true way out before the poison had taken hold so even though he saw the light of the Imperial Truth, he could not ever accept it because his own flaws had been exploited to breaking point.
I hate him, but I can see why he did what he did.
The only I don't agree is Vulkan, even if he's written ajusted and well, he saw the destruction of his legion in Istavaan V, he had to destroy and effigy of Ferrus Manus witnessing the fall of the Iron Hands. Got tortured to oblivion, felt unimaginable pain entering Macragges obrit. Vulkan had to help Rogal put the Emperor on the throne. He even left the Salamanders. I don't think he's right in the head. Nick Kyme did him a disservice.
I think the biggest tragedy of magnus is that hes the primarch who least wanted to fall. The one who tried his hardest to help his father and mankind. The one with the purest intentions. Yet hes one of the only ones i cant imagine having a good ending. Just by the nature of tzeetch. He didn’t have a chance from the start. And the emperor didn’t even equip him to try. The man had to outplay an almost all knowing and all powerful god of schemes and wasn't even told the god existed in the first place. The emperor made a fish, warned it of crabs, then threw it in a sharktank.
Of course there are things he could have done differently. But somehow i doubt tzeetch would have allowed him to get into contact with russ . Or communicate with terra through some other means. Or glean any information from the warp that doesn't reinforce his worst ideas
The fact that Malcador was more dissappointed with Magnus than with Horus or Lorgar says a lot.
Coraxs whole sadness gets entirely fucking cut off at the knees with that haphazard hamfuckingfisted reference to Edgar Allan Poe with "Nevermore". It felt like a 15yo wrote that.
If you ever needed a reminder that the whole setting sounds like some guys in their early 20s that haven't left their maturity leave being 15 XD
I think a lot of 40k sounds like a 15 year old wrote it. Thats one of the reasons why I like it
Leman had his loyalty manipulated into almost killing his brother and kickstarting the heresy, that’s gotta at least be superhuman sad for primarch tragedies.
Hal did explain Alpharius story line better than everyone else
Dorn was able to defy Khorne by drawing on his idea of "Just" war. Dorn has a foundational belief that war can be waged for a good reason, directly contradicting Khorne's idea of slaughter for slaughter's sake.
Dorn follows the Catholic idea of Just War Theory
What's even worse for Perturabo is that some of his men ignored his order to burn down his home world/decimate it. He learns of this after the fact when a space marine captain tells him that some of the men disobeyed the order. When Perturabo hears this he smiles briefly (presumably proud of them for disobeying his order) The space marine captain is confused by this and continues to tell Perturabo "Don't worry we killed them all of the for their disobedience."
Fixed grammar.
'Tell me not all of them did as I bade unquestioningly,' said Perturabo. Forrix hesitated. 'There were a few rebellious elements, my lord.' Perturabo smiled thinly, as if this were a good thing. The first captain continued. 'They have been dealt with. Please, attend to my words. You must return to the fleet.'
Sorry but WTF is that last sentence in the first paragraph?
@@Battouga Fixed it. I don't know how I worded it that badly.
I would argue for Fulgrim to be a bit higher, he actually got married a few times while he was on Chemos and even loved his wives, but he just kept outliving them, and he ended up becoming desensitised to them until he just stopped getting married. I just think that’s really sad
I wish we got more of him before his fall to see how he truly wished to uplift imperial society. We needed a real moment similar to (I will always bring up Bezerk when talking about Fulgrim because he is Griffith of 40K, prove me wrong) the Bonfire of dreams scene where he speaks of his dream, no putting his image first, not letting his jealousy get a word in, just a true, honest expression of what he sees for humanity.
i think you guys forgot that corax grew up as a slave and essentially pulled an angron type rebellion. his worked sure, but given everything that happens during the heresy, i do think that he deserves a depresso espresso. whereas kurze definitely deserves a truly traumatised (under angron ofc). his entire personality is essentially a coping mechanism to a lifetime of trauma. and tbh, i think that everyone in superhuman sad except guilliman and alpharius deserves to go to espresso depresso, with lorgar at the bottom of that tier
For me the most tragic is Magnus the Red, the Emperor gave him to much knoweledge but hide him the truth about the warp. And this is why he falls.
I've said it twice in chat, and I'll say it again here: Sanguinius is the most tragic of all primarchs, because he has the Lamenters as successors.
True, poor fuckers just drew all the straws, yet all of them were the shortest
To be fair, there is one single moment is 40k where Angron is happy... and it's when he dies after destroying the Choral Engine, and Khorne silences the Nails and gives him true peace until he reforms.
It was for 8 seconds before he was blew up, then give him oblivion after is dissipation and reformation.
Magnus was supposed to sit the Golden Throne. His loyalty and arrogance led him to destroy Big E's web way project while trying to warn him of Horus. He didn't turn; he backed himself into a corner.
Not really.
He did break through then… things get complicated.
His soul shattered, and well the shards that continued were there to warn him and continued to shatter after when they tried to restore his soul.
He kept shattering- destroying and sabotaging himself until his death.
The nobel shard was on Terra while many were scattered
Magnus did the best he could with the information he had at the time.
By far the biggest tragedy was when Mortarion had to resort to sticking his plasma pistol in watermelons for decades after Guilliman stranded him on a backwater as punishment for his beautiful poetry about his mother.
That shit was peak comedy😂😂😂
45:57 that was me, the “customer is right in matters of taste”. I used to run a pizza place, the owners never trained me when they promoted me to run the store. My rule was, “respect my staff and we will respect you”. I had not issue with remaking an order, especially if WE messed up. The owners didn’t appreciate my goal of improving morale, so I quit on them. If you don’t care about your staff, then I don’t care about you, OR you business.
The main issue of my store was hiring more people so people could get time off. Last I heard, that location hasn’t made a profit in several months. My ONLY reaction is: good!
Entitled boomers mad the younger generations look out for each other. And the sky is blue.
I feel like this is unfair to Corvus. He had to put down his own raptor sons because they were mutated. He fought hard to let them live, considered them true sons. It truly broke him, and he was already pretty broken up.
Corvus has similar ideals to Mortarion and still got screwed over. He wanted freedom, and all he got was the death of his sons via mutation, betrayal, and his own gene seed defects. His last act was throwing himself to the warp to hunt Lorgar for SOME measure of retribution. Man's given up on his own future in the hopes of taking down the killer of his legion. That's pretty dang tragic.
@@Sorrel-Fox Corvus had an enormous amount of the Emperor's trust and respect. Just tossed him the keys to the Palace's greatest secrets. Must be the Shaman in each of them.
The only reason Vulkan is so low on this is bad writing. If James Workshop actually had a cohesive vision for all this besides 'and in the end, most people are dead', Vulkan would be a broken but powerful hero, and Ferrus would have more than half a book.
Vulkan should be 40K’s epitome of a good person living in a world that wants to beat him into the mould of terrible bastards, and the struggles that come with that imo.
@@doot_slayeryeah but that would require Johnny W. to make their narratives coherent
One key detail I'm not sure shows up all that well in most discussion of Perturabo, is *regret*. He regrets his actions at Olympia, as can quite clearly be seen once it is over. Likewise, during the well known "bashing Fulgrim's face into a Warhammer mini" scene, Perturabo makes multiple statements regarding Vulkan. You could interpret this as Perturabo respecting Vulkan. At the same time, however, this is after Perturabo nukes Vulkan very much with the intent to kill, and when that fails, hands Vulkan over Curze for torture, and when that continues to fail, builds a duplicate of the maze Perturabo's workshop is kept in to assist with the torture. This certainly doesn't scream respect.
The seeming reason Perturabo is complimenting Vulkan, is by comparison to Fulgrim. Fulgrim has thrown away his craft, Vulkan has perfected it. Fulgrim is selfish, Vulkan is selfless. The Perturabo discussion about Vulkan is Perturabo's regret at the situation he has put himself into, having joined the side of lunatics, comparing who he is with to the alternative.
@@epiceg9464 More so what his allies could be if he had not gone traitor, wishing he had someone competent on his side rather than Fulgrim.
I feel like people don’t consider enough that while yeah, Magnus’ pride and ego lead him into making a lot of mistakes, the whole reason that all happened is because he was singled out by FUCKING TZEENTCH, the GOD of TRICKERY and DECEIT. It’s like shitting on your friend because he got outplayed in a game of chess by Magnus Carlsen
i mean these are warhammer fans expecting intelegance is unwise
Great point,
C.unterpoint.
Magnus was the only primarch with advantage of knowing about chaos and warning from his father to not talk to the spice squid. They even had the whole family intervention to cut his warp cable.
Better analogy would be making fun of a friend who challenged Magnus Carlsen at chess and losed by mat in 3, which is perfectly valid reaction.
I have a lot of sympathy for Perurabo. I like the competency and can relate cause I have some social deficits as well.
Despite being one of the most stoic primarchs, Jagathai has some heartbreaking moments.
He had his three oldest friends all die, each of whom was trying to help him, even if some did not have the right info.
He had to personally kill his sons who took a vow of honor, hating himself and the war for forcing such circumstances.
He had to see the desolation of Prospero, and see the shattered shade of Magnus, learning slowly about the truth of the Heresy, and then forced to fight against Mortarion.
And then all throughout the Siege of Terra, he’s forced to helplessly lose ground, defend further and further, giving up on parts of the palace and those who were defending it, resulting in his own painful half-death.
Corvus having his 'Old Yeller' moment was sad, but you made it funny.
Come on guys....Hal knows what's up...Curze was COMPLETELY alone....imagine if the Knights of Caliban had never found the Lion and Luther hadn't brought him in and cared for him.....How would the Lion have ended up ? Probably completely feral and unable to relate to any other person he shares a genetic link to.
I’ll never understand the hate/disrespect for Fulgrim and his lore, probably my favourite Primark along with Sanguinious and Mortarian
People hate other people that are fond of themselves, probably some derivative of the crabs in a barrel urge. Fulgrim unironically is one of the most goated primarchs, only surpassed by guys like guilliman and sanguinius. He's a great fighter, great statesman, great general, he's one of the primarchs who can be useful outside of war unlike several who only know how to be good fighters and warlords. He's great by every metric.
@@jebrooksmaybe not a general, but defo a great swordsman and politician
@@plasticbag4102 he conquered a full planet with a handful of soldiers, which granted is not advisable but the fact he was capable of doing it I think shows he was a crazy good strategist and general. The decision to do such a thing might not be outstanding strategy on his part but I don't think he did it out of logic, he did it for ego, which was always an issue for him.
@@jebrooks and unknown little fun fact, hes one of the few thats not too arrogant to learn from mortals, marines, or other primarchs. Hes insecure and acts arrogant at points, but if you look at his whole character before being corrupted hes about as open and humble as it gets. Meanwhile when Dorn gets told someone betrayed the emperor he almost beats them to death but hes the level headed guy
@@aguspuig6615 fulgrim might be the only traitor primarch who got a net downgrade in their fall to chaos
Your question at the end about returning Primearchs made me think this: if you did a Corvus BirdMan warp entity kit, you could make it a 2 for 1 and have an alternative build option be Sanguinius. Treat both as these weird Warp Entities that fight Chaos in time of need like Celestine due to the Eye of Terror expanding.
That would be a fantastic kitbash. I already love the idea that the Warp seems to be in the process of reincarnating Sanguinius to begin with, so to mix him in with Corvax would be *great.*
Just finished Hammer of Olympia a little while ago and Perturabo isn’t actually all that sympathetic. His foster father wasn’t a great guy but he did try so many times to connect with Perty in his own way. But the two could never seem to understand one another and the politics of the world did play a part. Perturabo’s sister brings up excellent points about just how little Perturabo tried to fit in or understand others. And Olympia was noncompliant in the loosest sense. They just wanted to chat and get a better deal for their world cause Perturabo kept getting all their soldiers killed. They were starting to suffer from serious depopulation issues. Then he came back and killed them all.
Also. The fact they wanted to put Kurze lower because he didn’t try to improve his situation when Perturabo is the definition of that kind of behavior and he got a lot of sympathy is crazy. Lol
Are we forgetting Corvus had to kill everyone of his mutated Sons who were loyal and sad too
Maybe I'm just neurodivergent as fuck, but Magnus botching every major descision he has to make is relatable. He may be an arrogant prick, but he genuinely cared, and his potential was immense. Some people just aren't practical or savvy enough to think quickly when they feel they are forced to act. I'm not saying Magnus is good by 40k standards, but he is easily one of the the most human Primarchs to me.
It's clear to me that Magnus simply wasn't a leader type. He probably would have done far better as an advisor, or better yet, as a beacon on the Golden Throne.
Yeah, agreed. Magnus to me embodies the idea of "I care too much and therefore I cannot take not doing something". This leads him to constantly act when he should have waited. He's very emotional in a way that I find very human and it sets him apart from his brothers, many of which feel like they are above it all
I’m glad Aaron was joking about angron being cry me a river cause i’m cleaning while i watch and for a second. I was like wait has Aaron been through.
Not only they didn't want to do Monarchia but even when they are ordered to do it, they do it in the most Ultramarine way possible. They give the citizens a week to leave, the assist them in leaving, they patrol the city to make sure that anyone who wanted to leave but couldn't did so and only then bombard it.
Honestly, Monarchia is a tragedy only to the mind of the average Word Bearer and Word Bearer fanboi. At worst, it was a slap on the wrist
Didn't people die and a remembrancer go blind?
@raushan3443 The people that died as well as the priestess who was blinded were amongst those that stayed because of they wanted to and represented maybe 1% of the whole city, perhaps less. If you want more details, you can pick up First Heretic, it's a very good book.
Amber King and Dutch feel so right on this podcast.
I'd put Leman higher on the list atleast to dreary demi-god. Next to Dorn he took the loss of the Emperor very hard to the point ran from his broken form in grief and shame that he couldn't save him, he got furious with Constantine Valdor a long time friend on not getting atleast angry at the fact the emperor is 'dead' and he was grieving the loss of his brother and rival Lion'El Jonson in a space wolf short story where this space wolf was going through the trails and found leman in a cave drinking alone. I agree that Leman had a pretty good upbringing but hes been through the ringer with losing his brothers, the emperor and even his sons when he couldn't take out Horus and his sons had to bail him out which he didn't want.
But as the rest of the brothers go next to Vulkan he makes a great sounding board by convincing Corvus not to sacrifice himself cause he found out hes made of the warp and Leman told Corvus he got stabbed with the Dionysian spear and chose to face Horus anyway despite knowing the truth of his existence and let Lion vent to Leman by letting himself get stabbed which I imagine hurt like a mf.
TLDR Leman has been through shit during the Heresy and came out of it ashamed and losing brothers left and right including his dad and despite taking the blows he had to be atleast be there for his brothers that where left since Corvus was suicidal and Lion was just unfamiliar with the feeling of losing someone close and could quite process the feeling and just took it out on Leman cause he of all people could understand him.
a fan animation about the Emperor making the Word bearers kneel has a line that goes insanly hard : " God was real and he hated us "
I think Fulgrim is Superhuman Sad, because his downfall is an accident. Taking his Primarch book as context, he was a noble leader who made the bettering of lives one of his biggest motivations. The Laer Blade corrupted him, he became a thrall of his worst impulses via Slaneesh. If he never took that sword, he could have been the Imperium's greatest asset.
You guys should do a list ranking primarchs badass feats
Magnus shots himself in the foot but at the same time a lot of Magnus's crash out could've been avoided if the Emperor had just told him about Chaos earlier. Not excusing the dumb stuff he's done but I always saw Magnus's fall as one of Big E's bigger mistakes because it was easier to solve than most of the other traitor primarchs
He did though? Like he explicitly warned him about fucking with the warp, sure he didn't tell him about the chaos gods, but he out and out told him not to do exactly what his dumbass did.
Thanks for featuring my minis!
I have a trick for keeping track of Alpharius and Omegon. "Alpharius Omegon" was found first, took the name Omegon, and is now Alpharius again. "Omegon Alpharius" was found last, took the name Alpharius, and was killed by Dorn.
Is that canon or speculation?
@exquisitecorpse__ yes lol. Which part?
@@dramsac17 I hadnt gotten to that part in the video yet I just assumed this was your theory. I get it now
@Wh40kk This is the part where I go all Perturabo and say "there's power in a name" lol. But, there is.
Most people use "first" and "last" because it's the foundational delineation between them. But "Alpharius" means first, and "Omegon" means last. So "the first who is last," and "the last who was first" seems fitting to me.
@@dramsac17 Oh I live how poetic that naming pattern is.
The real tragedy is that sanguinius the most noble and honorable of the primarchs was given to the legion of cannibals and berserkers, and he had to reshape them, in a lot of cases personally working to help them then seeing so many die, and in the end knowing his death has cursed all the remaining ones
Some primarchs like corvus are just extensions of their legion, But sanguinis is interesting because he's one of those primarks that are actually quite different from his legion and took great efforts to reshape their culture
@@klaykid117
I'm not deep in the lore, but I think Sanguinius did have a great rage within him. It could be that he was like his sons, but more adjusted, and he worked to help his sons similarly temper their rage
Vulkan should be in truly traumatized for being given terrible books by gw.
Lot of ppl love his books what u mean
As always, shitting on Magnus and his decisions will never not be hilarious.
Konrad completely belongs to cry me a river, bc at one point in one of his books where we see his life on Nostramo at one point he had 2 possible futures as he was about to kill a child. 1 future was that if he hesitates the kid will run away and then grow up to kill him, and the 2nd future was that if he forgives the kid he would become the robin to his batman and he would be able to show him how to forgive people and grow as a person. And after he kills the kid, it's discovered that the kid did not have the weapon that he saw in the 1st future.
1:06:55 "Lorgar was horrifically beaten as a kid"
"Good" I love it lol
Don't stop telling guests to say they're gay, its funny.
Of course Guilliman is saving the Imperium, he's a well-adjusted human being. Do you know how rare that is in 40k?
I maintain my position that Fulgrim fell the furthest of all the traitors.
Isyander and koda collab????
Did you ever hear the tragedy of Angron The Red Angel?
Honestly surprised lorgar isn’t higher
He had so much against him and still was the most loyal during the crusade
He was hand picked by chaos to be their herald
He was raised on a planet that believed in chaos
But He still converted said planet to worship the emperor and followed him only to be betrayed he turned out good against all the odds and was still rejected
Konrad 1:25:31 blew up his own planet when they went back to crime after begging him to come back for YEARS so no I’ve got 0 mercy for him as he had a bad beginning but everything else was his decisions only even Fought Lion and torture Vulkan thinking he could turn his brother crazy
It's really unfair for Peter Turbo to think Big E would take him to dinner when Sanguinius is literally the best son a father could ever ask for.
I want Fulgrim and Leman to come back, but i want Leman to have gone bad, and Clonegrim to have escaped and is redeemed.
Vulkan lives in the most inhospitable and hostile planet of almost any primarch other then callaban and fenris and Barbaras
He suffered from shit head writing
Plus his villagers were being kidnapped by Drukhari on the regular. Hence his deep hatred for Eldar.
Somewhat Mortarion was right about fearing the psyckers that would be is downfall... Ladys and gentlemen, enter CALAS TYPHON!
59:19 at the end of the book “head of the hydra” Alpharius said that this is his record and all records lie. So we don’t know for sure.
Honestly I disagree with where Angron is placed.
Because he chose to be a tyrannical monster, even through everything he experienced. His son's didn't get his gladiators killed and yet he subjected them to his torture. Hell, Conrad is more tragic then him.
Naw, I would say he didn't have a choice because of the butcher's nails. There was no choice because the Emperor took all of them away from him. He didn't bother to take Angron's nails out because he deemed Angron too broken and the removal not worth the effort. Same with the rebel gladiators that Angron escaped with. Are you telling me Big E couldn't have spared a few extra combat suits or spun up the teleporter one more time to evacuate them along with Angron? He could have secured a loyal (albiet short lived) primarch and legion if he pulled just a little bit more effort for Angron.
@RetroRadianceLight
To be fair, if Big E acted like any amout of a father he wouldn't have had the heresy happen. Mortarian and Angron are both great examples of Big E's inability to read the room and act accordingly.
Im waiting for a Nurgle/Deathguard fan to spray liquid ass on on their models just for that touch of realism.
Then, take them to a tournament 😂
Lmao 😂 OMG, that would be so baller! Imagine that extra bit of realism! I love it!
But Conrad did try "good" and then it turned just like in his visions , stuff got worse as soon as he was gone. Plus yes he and Sang had visions, but Sang was instantly beloved by all. Conrad was the opposit. To a point where terran officials send assassins to kill him. Which was before Horus got corrupted.
@@piotrjeske4599 Konrad's precognition was far stronger than Sanguinius'. Talos the Soulhunter' visions were very powerful for an Astartes. It was killing him.
Vulkan should have been in truly traumatized for having to be in the War of the Beast
Pert is defo a Cry me a River Primarch.
He has a lot of good parts but his fall aint that amazing, he has some shit jobs, but he doesnt have the hardest or most dangerous, he wishes he could spend more time building even though he absolutely could, as we've seen every other Primarch that wanted to do things outside of war, found time to do things outside of war.
If Lorgar can secretly prop up a religion, Guilliman can turn every world he visits into a matropalis, Dorn can fortify and leave most worlds in a better state than he left them, Magnus can go around doing whatever he wants, Fulgrim can peruse the arts with his sons, Vulkan and Ferrus can find time to make all kinds of things.
I think Perturabo could have found the time to build the occasional Amphitheatre, instead he just felt sorry for himself and wished he got more recognition for his ability to do things he never actually found the time to do.
Plenty of Primarchs had worlds they had personally worked on and were proud off, Lorgar had Monarchia, Guilliman had Calth, Fulgrim had the Perfect City, Magnus had Tizca.
Pert had the time to read on terra and bond with the Emperor over a shared interest in ancient wisdom, same with Magnus, but he never found the time for any of his grander projects and frankly never put himself out there.
He may be depresso, but it's entirely his fault, he's more self-sabotaging than anything, he wants recognition but doesnt put himself out there to be seen, he wants praise but doesnt do anything or highlight anything he's done to warrent praise, instead, what little he does, he expects someone on the other side of the galaxy to go out of there way to discover, appreciate and then praise.
So Perturabo, without a doubt, can cry me a river.
Also after everything that happened in the Heresy, I think Corvus could warrant Depresso Espresso after his legion got massacred and he had to personally put down a chunk of the men he'd recruited during the heresy because of their mutations.
Also his gene-flaw is literally depression.
Also Lion gets way to much shade here, and it's worth noting, of all the Primarchs with a parental figure, he's the only one who's parental figure not only betrayed him, but was nearly an accessory to an assassination attempt and was then later fully betrayed by said father figure.
The Lion didn't give pert the siege engines because he had an ego, he did it because he knew Pert was the best man to use them and to gain Perts favour for the future, it had the benefit of being the most pragmatic and effective decision militarily, and gained him some political support in the process.
Nemiels death was just straight up bad writing and completely wasted the story potential of Nemial and Zahariel, and is completely dropped, it just should not have happened.
Also worth noting, Kurze, in-lore, is straight up given in-universe plot armour as his excuse for not being clapped by the Lion, people tend to overlook this, especially kurze fans, because it basically confirms the Lion should be able to take Kurze but simply wasnt allowed to kill him because plot/fate didnt let him, which is why, when he decides to take him alive, wipes the floor with him.
Lion deserves Dreary, Corvus deserves Depresso Espresso and Pert can cry me a river.
He didn't have time to build anything though. Just tinkered between missions.
His masterwork of a city that served to host the Council at Nikaea was promptly torn down after being used to trial Magnus (his only warmly retatable brother) for Witchcraft. The rest recorded the Iron Warriors as an un-named ally for nutcracking the hardest compliances.
The Emperor looked sadly upon him during their reunion on the mountain. "Your road will be hard. But few are worthy of it.”, said the emperor, “I have many tasks for you. The indefatigable. The indomitable. The unrelenting. You shall be my Lord of Iron.” Perturabo almost climbed into lower orbit on that mountain to met his real Dad, and risked falling the last minutes oxygen deprived. The other brothers (except Mortarion) were visited in nicer, economical ways. Perturabo was too overwhelmed with love and awe to care. That was betrayed in the name of utility. Corvus had a nice college dorm style visit from Big E. He saw Big E as a regular dude. The Truth was hacked by Corvus' gifts.
Guilliman "Big E's Last Tool, His Last Hope) said to the dying Frater Mattieu. "The Emperor uses people." Ohh Perturabo got USED...Bigly. Big E, Brothers, All Four Chaos gods. : )
But Perturabo did grow up on a fairly civilized world, and had a loving family. He was a huge jerk. The Lion was no less the giant dickhead, and still quietly respected but disliked socially.
Perterabo had the worst sieges, the worst battles and he was the most deserving of praise yet he was always looked down upon. He was nothing more than a tool for others to use and discard as they saw fit. Yet still he carried on and did not break. He hard carried the Horus heresy and siege of terra, fought Daemon Angron and Fulgrim, won then gave them a verbal beat down only to then get soul cancer. The bloke is seeping in tragedy.
Except Perturabo didn't have time in-between. He was constantly sent around to break impossible sieges, one after another after another.
@@SomersetDrinker Theres several problems with this.
His entire thing was Sieges and the way he fought and lead his men was entirely up too him, fighting with gruelling attrition tactics all the time is on Pert.
He didnt have the worst battles at all, he had one notably gruelling campaign, much of Perts resentment was down to his legion being spread thin because they built so many forts and left small garrisons to defend, and the Iron Warriors themselves resented being put on Guard Duty.
They didnt get the shit jobs that nobody wanted to do because they we're the hardest, they were literally just given more guard duty than most other Legions, with the exception of the Fists, who didnt complain about Guard Duty, and the Ultramarines who actually liked working on the worlds they took.
And Sieges are literally just digging trenches and lobbing shells at the enemy, and occasionally charging in, which, for Iron Warriors, wasnt very risky most of the time.
As for the second claim.
He absolutely broke, when his world rebelled and he decided to brutally supress it and basically kill everyone, it caused infighting within his Legion, and when he saw his Sister, she basically reminded him that he was meant to be the Emperors Lord of Iron, and that he was just being a petulant child, at which point, he killed her, realized she was completely right, and had a meltdown.
Then Horus, who did nothing to make his life easier while he was warmaster, comes along, praises him, and Pert just does whatever he says because he knows the Emperor wont forgive him, and decides double down on being a failure and sides with Horus.
He also doesnt carry the Heresy, it's a vastly overblown claim that people parrot far too much at this point.
He was lucky enough to have the powerful siege engines given to him by the Lion, the Astartes Anonymous claim that he somehow played to the Lions ego simply isnt true, Lion praised Pert and tried to convince him to back him as the next Warmaster as a political move, and then gave him the siege engines, partly to gain Perts favour politically, but also because Lion knew Pert was the best guy to have them, believing he was still loyal.
Pert never has to actually go up against another Primarch, he never has to fight a full Legion because the vast majority of Fists are at Terra, he nearly looses to an Imperial Fist Fleet because he decided to watch the Naval battle from his flagships Hanger bay, and only comes out of the battle as well as he does cause the Fists are ordered to retreat, and follow the order even though their winning the battle and can do irreparable damage to the Iron Warriors and likely even destroy their Flagship, with Pert on it.
Hell, a boarding Party of Fists even makes it to the bridge, face to face with Pert.
He isnt at Beta Garmon, he isnt at Molech, his legion has a horrible time getting torn up by the Tallarn's and a small amount of space marines from 3 or 4 legions.
The most he does is at Terra, which he leaves after being replaced by the Death Guard, who frankly do perfectly fine, the Traitors had all but won without Pert, the only reason they lost was cause Horus died.
Frankly, the only Legion that really did less than them was the Emperors Children.
The most important thing Pert did was bring Angron into line and have a chunk of his Legion try and slow down the Ultramarines after they get through the Ruinstorm and do his best to lead the Siege effectively, and this was the only time he had to directly compete with a loyalist Primarch.
And he didnt bring Fulgrim, that was Lorgar's Job.
Meanwhile Mort has to handle the Khan Directly, Curze disctracts the Lion for as long as he can, Lorgar and Angron tag-team the Ultramarines and put up the Ruinstorm to block off the Ultramarines, Blood Angels and Dark Angels so the Traitors can prep for the Siege.
The Alpha Legion nearly wipe out the Space Wolves, stop Corvus from making any kind of comeback in the Heresy, and fight a brief guerrilla war against Dorn long before the siege.
I could go on, but Pert is absolutely Cry me a River tier, and he didnt carry the Heresy.
He has his moments dont get me wrong, but his writing is all over the place.
He is one of the least consistently written primarchs and thats saying something.
Great Show lads. Keep it up, any plans with putting isyander and koda in?
When's Red coming back?
Yeah we want red
Probably when his schedule opens up.
I has never thought about the facy that kurz had survived eating murderers and absorbed their evil... 1:23:42
Shrumzy, word of the day, tysm😊
You have entered the painted realm
i swear shrewsbury and calth being compared might the funniest thing i've heard in awhile
The thing I've never understood with the Cabal thing, is they're given a choice between a death in a few generations if Horus wins, or a death in 10k years if the Emperor wins.... The obvious answer for me, is the Emperor wins and you get 10K years to solve the problem XD
And the xenos lives that would be also destroyed if the Emperor wins don't really matter for the Imperium ^^
Bruh, Lorgar is Angron tier
Love how just like they mentioned at the beginning, Guilliman randomly ends up right in the middle lol (especially if you count the twins as 2 separate)
Great episode lads! but I can't help but feel there is something missing, where the hell is red he's been MIA the past few episodes
Iam worried, does Red still want to do podcasts?
I think they said a couple weeks ago that red’s gonna be gone for a few weeks due to his job
Ok, the Lion didn't kill Nemiel for no reason. Their ships were being assaulted by Daemons and the Lion knew he needed the Librarians to use their powers to save the fleet but Nemiel, being a Chaplain was denying the Lion because of the Edict of Nikkea and the Lion did not have time for it and in desperation he lashed out. The act allowed him to save the fleet but he does regret this so it is entirely a tragic act about the cost of command in a definite crisis.
another Primarch Tier List. HELL YEAH!!!
Curze & Mortarion should definitely be up there with Angron in Trully Traumatized
Mortarion is that character who got dealt every bad hand, but just finds ways to make himself unsympathetic at every turn
What is a surumsee? Shurumze? The thing amber king said in the models of the week with the deathgaurd.
They described it outside of being bleeped as when you expel...stuff (in the case of the models, a noxious looking gas) from every orifice of your body. It's not just gas, it can be other stuff that UA-cam now forces people to bleep needlessly.
Freakin Amber dabbing on the traumarchs
About Russ (as nobody in this podcast is ever on his side xD):
He had a bad time during Alaxxes, a long episode of instrospection, depression and lost of any sense of being. But, he ends up learning from it (learning in Leman's way, of course). Every time something was wrong with him or something bad happened to him, he never put the blame on others and carried on. And, most importantly, he remembered and wanted everyone else to remember every time he fucked it up.
So in that sense is similar to the Lion, indeed: they were able to deal with the bad things on their lives
And, about Fulgrim, I think Arthur Bones has a great argument about his tragedy being the tragedy of drug addiction. Which immediately places himself in the first cathegory
I feel like Curze is the most tragic only second to Angron but my only defence of him is he's just like me fr
Do you skin infants for your socks on the daily?
Hi astartes~ ❤
I would like to see a clone of Angron so he wouldnt have the butchers nails and then transfer his soul into that body to see how he would think ofnhis past actions wothout the rage spikes stabbing him in the brain.
55:47 the Alphalegion is tinfoil hat mode what are you talking about. Alpharius and Omegon are two sides of the same coin. Unless it’s their purpose aka sabotage espionage and assassination.
No that’s pretty bog standard alpha legion talking points. I don’t claim to know what’s true but Alpharius and Omegon do have subtlety different personalities
Been meaning to ask, wheres the intro idle animation from? It looks like something from a classic 80s mecha anime.
48:20 he literally gets possessed and loses control of his body to a demon tho
To be unfair to Konrad he did torture a women to death for the crime of trying to commit suicide.
I dunno if I recall correctly.
Spoilers for the end and the death.
But Dorn is about to give up, to Kohrne, and some space marines, dunno who exactly recall there's 2 hear him through a wall and he's like okay I am not alone or something, and keeps fighting to resist.
no i think it's literally that khorne gets cocky and says "say it, who is the blood for?" and dorn, in his stuborness and desire to cut down all megalomaniacs by 10 pegs just says in his tts voice "No."
Rann and the bringer of sorrow hear him talk to himself, they try to get through to him but they cant. the only thing dorn hears is the sound of battle, khorne and the emperor calling for aid. if i remember correctly cyrene valantion freed him or khorne was just like "okay i get it you will not be my demon primarch" and let him escape
Leman did kinda realise he’d been manipulated into destroying Magnus and the Thousand Sons, not to mention potentially having killed on of the lost primarchs… I wouldn’t rank him super high on the tragedy tier list but I think there are a lot of layers that he kept hidden (particularly with how he deliberately distanced himself from his other brothers and avoided forming any close bonds with them, which is itself part of why we never really get much insight into Russ’ emotional state, he just doesn’t ever really open up about it)
I'm hoping that when Guiliman has his rematch with Fulgrim, he shatters the Laer Blade and not only does it somehow enables a redemption path for Fulgrim but also somehow allows Ferrus to talk to his sons like Sanguinius did to Dante.
And hopefully the Iron Hands go on a war path against Vashtoor.
Thanks 😊
Ofc Fulgrim, literally the guy in the thumbnail, has to be on the least tragic category
This is cool
Can’t abide that Vulkan rating. The nuances of the story might have been written poorly, but it was definitely tragic. It shouldn’t be a popularity contest on who’s plotline is best.
episode on brainstorming book ideas for xenos when?
The link to your discord has expired my friend
Met another primarch withe same problem 😂 but that other primarch is also the golden child
What about angrons dog
Please do more lists with xenos characters
Wasn't referenced this week. Its so incredibly jover.
Hello
Loving this democrussey!
Cease and desist