COUPLES therapy (almost) NEVER WORKS: you are not the client
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- Опубліковано 14 гру 2023
- I might take some heat for this one, but I'm not a big fan of couples therapy -- mostly because I haven't seen it associated with a very high rate of success. In this episode, I give several reasons why this may be the case, and argue that -- if therapy is needed -- most issues can be more productively addressed in individual counseling. It's very hard to tell the truth that one person can hear; it's almost impossible to tell the truth that two people can hear simultaneously.
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Presented by Orion Taraban, Psy.D. PsycHacks provides viewers with a brief, thought-provoking video several days a week on a variety of psychological topics, inspired by his clinical practice. The intention is for the core idea contained within each video to inspire viewers to see something about themselves or their world in a slightly different light. The ultimate mission of the channel is to reduce the amount of unnecessary suffering in the world.
#psychology #therapy #relationship
I might take some heat for this one, but I'm not a big fan of couples therapy -- mostly because I haven't seen it associated with a very high rate of success. In this episode, I give several reasons why this may be the case, and argue that -- if therapy is needed -- most issues can be more productively addressed in individual counseling. It's very hard to tell the truth that one person can hear; it's almost impossible to tell the truth that two people can hear simultaneously.
Book a paid consultation:
oriontarabanpsyd.com/consultations
Social Media
Facebook: facebook.com/profile.php?id=100090053889622
LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/orion-taraban-070b45168/
Instagram: instagram.com/psyc.hacks
Twitter: twitter.com/oriontaraban
Website: oriontarabanpsyd.com
Orion's Theme: ua-cam.com/video/WrXBzQ2HDEQ/v-deo.html
Thinking of going to grad school? Check out STELLAR, my top-rated GRE self-study program based on the world's only empirically-validated test prep system. Use the code "PSYCH" for 10% off all membership plans: stellargre.com.
Become a Stellar affiliate and earn a 10% commission for every membership purchased by a new student you conduct into the program: stellargre.tapfiliate.com.
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Sound mixing/editing by: valntinomusic.com
Presented by Orion Taraban, Psy.D. PsycHacks provides viewers with a brief, thought-provoking video several days a week on a variety of psychological topics, inspired by his clinical practice. The intention is for the core idea contained within each video to inspire viewers to see something about themselves or their world in a slightly different light. The ultimate mission of the channel is to reduce the amount of unnecessary suffering in the world.
#psychology #therapy #relationship
There were several good observations in this video. Reinforces my conclusion that Biblical counseling is far superior to secular psychology built on Skinner and Freud
Word
Incredible video with so many new perspectives! You're getting much more fluent with your messages and the way you present them. 333K is a strong current follower count, with 3 being a number of communication. Congratulations Orion!
If your partner is behaving inappropriately and you're thinking of going to couples counseling, save yourself the money and six months of misery. Find a new girl who has genuine desire. She will treat you better and it will be much less effort than trying to save a sinking ship.
@cosmictreason2242 God is the chief psychologist indeed. I am also convinced that Godly marriages ( both couples yielded to Him) is the only way to thrive in it coz both are answerable to God. Secular society is OUT OF CONTROL 😢😢
I heard a therapist talking about how often in couples therapy when she focuses on the husband the wife will be all in on the therapy. However, when it’s time to address the wife’s behavior she said a significant amount of wives outright quit and refused to return. The comment section was full of men sharing identical stories.
So my experience is not unique 😂
You mean to tell me there is now evidence on a societal scale of women not enjoying the process of having to take accountability for their actions and wrongdoing?, colour me shocked.
It's almost as if you're saying accountability is a woman's kryptonite.
I've been there, as soon as the therapist told her she needed to apologize for certain decition she naver came back to cuples therapy, not only with him, but with any other therapist.
Obviously we ended divorcing.
This was my ex-wife.
My first marriage, we had trouble and went to a counselor. After a half hour conversation, the therapist (a woman) told me point blank and in my ex wife’s presence, “You’re wasting your time - she doesn’t want to be married.” Why couldn’t my ex just say this? Because I was paying for everything and she could see the end of the gravy train. Therapist actually saved me time and money.
That's a good therapist.
@@AfriqueNY You are so right! i would call that a success story!
That woman was MVP.
Here’s the thing though. Women’s feelings change all the time. You can make a woman change her mind but not by demanding she do it. A woman definitely feels what she feels in the moment but that can also change. When I had problems in my marriage many years ago I did the research and found that counselors don’t help at all. They want to talk about the problems the wife has with you but the thing is those aren’t the real problems. If you fixed every issue she brings up she still won’t want you. The problem is she lost attraction for you. When she’s attracted to you she doesn’t care if you do the dishes or leave your clothes on the floor.
I hired a relationship coach and also started watching tons of coaching videos. These guys taught me how to driver her crazy and make her want me so bad she couldn’t stand it. I even watched pick up artist videos to up my game. She had no idea I was getting help. I found out that all the love and attention I was pouring on her was actually causing her to lose interest. You would think that was a good thing but women are shallow and selfish. I stopped focusing on her and started focusing on myself. I made myself the most valuable man on the market place I could. I had women hitting on me everywhere I go and still do.
Women only love you when you are their best option. Honestly that’s not even love. Women aren’t capable of real love. As a man you plow ahead and kick ass daily. She will follow you. You never follow her.
Give her attention but only in small doses and never pour love on her.
Soon as she knows she has you she will lose interest and the vagina dries up. Women must chase you or they will be chasing someone else.
We were separated and I was contacting her a lot pouring my heart out to her. The coach told me to stop and cut her off. I didn’t listen and felt like I just couldn’t stop. Finally I gave in and did what they said. I cut her off and in my mind moved on. Within days she saw me posting photos at the beach. Hanging with friends and some were girls I had met. She came running back begging me to take her back and apologizing. It’s been 7 years now and I never went back to the guy I was. She can go to hell for all I care for the way she did me. I tell her that all the time too. She throws herself at me daily now for 7 years. Showers me with sex and love. I’m cold as ice and only show her attention here and there other than rearranging her insides daily. She claims she wishes I would love her again like I used to. I tell her she hated that guy and now I have no respect for that guy either. She will never see me like that again. If women want a man to shower them with love then that’s what we would do. The problem is We get punished for doing that.
@@fivebooks8498 almost copy&paste of my story.
by the way, i wish there were more success stories like yours or mine out there. most are of men just doing drastic "dump her" and thus many relationships that could be saved end up in a mist.
[3 years post separation, living in 2 different apartments, going strong with almost daily sex - we see each other every 2nd day]
I went to therapy because my wife was saying how horrible of a person I am. The therapist, on the first session, told me to think about divorcing her and cutting that relationship off 😂. He said that I should get out of the abusive situation as fast as possible.
looks like you didn't
And what did you do?
Part of the problem here is the framing. If more couples' therapists were brave, they'd start the process like this: "It's not my job to keep you two together. It's my job to help you communicate well enough to either 1) work together for a better relationship, or 2) begin the process of an honest breakup." The energy in the room for couples' therapy goes way up when divorce is overtly on the table. The therapist should never try and hide this or pretend that divorce is a bad outcome.
A great comment!
Exactly.
My couples therapist was like that. It helped for sure.
Couple's therapists keep people together? Unhappily together? I don't think so.
Excellent comment
As a therapist, I sometimes get heat from my individual clients when I encourage them to leave a bad relationship. Entering into couples therapy can absolutely be enabling a bad relationship! Really great points! Thank you Dr. Orion 🙌
Aren’t they there to receive a professional opinion on how to improve their wellbeing? It’s wild how many people think therapy should be void of any actionable remedies and instead be repetitive mental masturbation.
Imagine paying loads of money on therapy only to realise that you needed set boundaries and exercises extreme levels of self-care by removing yourself from someone's life.. This content is extremely eye opening.. I bet you someone out there is trying to figure out how they can love someone better, but only to find it that they should love someone else 🔥
Well said 👏 and yes thousands of people will be.
Imagine paying loads of money on therapy and realizing your therapist is an miserable, incompetent cat lady. Many such cases.
The amount you can live yourself is the amount you can love others. So self therapy is all that's needed
@@Aliens-Are-Our-Friends2027True love is selfless. Loving yourself is new age, feminine talk imo. The better point is not to focus on yourself at all, no endless navel-gazing. Take action instead of pampering yourself, which is what self-love tends to be in practice.
@@zusk8556 in fact that's why tng Bible never tells people they need to love themselves. It takes for granted that they already do , and then commands to love others as you love yourself
I find that an exciting coincidence. I recently moved and an older lady has her psychotherapy practice in the apartment next to me. I recently asked her if she also offers couples therapy and she simply said, "No, I don't believe in couples therapy."
Sounds like she is the therapist you need to get your sh1t together and move on with your life.
as a therapist, I can tell you that it's WAAAY easier to just work with individuals. I can do almost 10 sessions per day individually, but I would need intensive care if I were to do 10 couples sessions. It's much more draining. Excruciating, in some cases.
I’ve been with my gf for 3 years and we’re currently in couples therapy. The reason why is because when I broke up with my gf, it was due to her toxic behavior. After I moved out, we spoke a couple of days later (I don’t know why I agreed to talk to her a couple of days after breaking up with her 😂😅), I told her that I’m not interested in continuing with her until we see a therapist.
Fast forward a year later, I think it has helped tremendously in terms of we deal with each other while having to reflecting on how our previous experiences affected how we dealt with certain situations that arise in our relationship. Plus, our therapist is intentional about not taking sides.
Couples therapy is not a panacea. You’ll and your partner will regress at times, but if you guys are both serious, those transgressions will become less and less over time.
Edit: grammar.
finally! a comment that makes sense and isn't just angry and bitter! props to you!
"Compromise is 2 people not getting what they want." Incredible stuff. Thanks Orion!
good luck finding a happy relationship with zero compromise
@@xilial you're missing the point. Compromise: husband wants to live in the mountains, wife wants to live on the beach. The compromise and live a 3 hour drive from both. What Orion proposes here is to have complementary selfishness. Eg the husband wants a pickup and the wife wants a minivan. So he gets a pickup. But the wife wants a kitchen island and he wants a tankless water heater. They get a kitchen island. One person gets what they want at any one point in time, with zero compromise, but they alternate who gets what when
But is perfect the enemy of the good? You are never her first choice anymore than she is yours. You each decide whether the other is good enough, and the relationship lasts for as long as each of you feels the other IS good enough.
I would argue that every relationship (and situation) is a series of compromises, where each person gets *enough* of what they want to enter into the relationship.
@@xilial It's almost like you can find better solutions than simply blindly compromising. The point of the comment being that compromise is a bad thing. Even if necessary you both end up miserable, so you only want to do it when there is no other choice.
@@xilialoh no no no… hes totally cluless LOL
My ex was terrible in therapy. When challenged about being an abusive narcissist, she would just get up and walk out. I worked hard to acquiesce to her demands which would then only result in more demands that never made her happy. Eventually, the therapist just said I had to accept that she was abusive. That was when I realized he was not there to make us both happy, but to make the relationship work no matter what. I filed for divorce weeks later and am so much happier for it.
Narcissists are basically impossible to change because they can't admit they are wrong. Good job removing yourself from that situation.
No one deserves to be treated badly, I hope that you've recovered and found peace.
My therapist told me I just had to accept the fact my wife is mentally ill.
Couples therapy was a joke. My ex stopped going after the 2nd session when I began to suspect she had cheated on me. I went to the next one by myself and asked the therapist about it. "You don't want to go there," she said. Then why the hell am I paying you $150 an hour for? After 5 years of no sex, hugs, or even kisses I left her.
5 years? My guy, that was 4.5 years too long.
No that was 5 years too long!!! You can give her a couple days to turn around but after that you should Leave!!! If she loves you, she will do anything to be with you!
My dude..5 years? You are a saint. I would fuck off after 5 mounts.
Mate, the biggest red pill is that men, Men, are very rarely the problem in relationships. Our challenge is to walk away sooner, realising the chick is faulty
As men we must try to be someone a woman desires to be intimate with. However, if it's not happening you gotta bounce fast. Women love that stuff even more than men. So if she's not giving you the attention someone else is getting it. Besides, nothing turns a women on more than telling her to leave.
My dads wife stopped going to their couples therapy because the therapist who was a woman told her she was responsible for a lot of the negative interactions and she did not like hearing that all. They went to 3 separate therapists and she quit it every time.
Why is he still with her
Women detest accountability. Being told something is their fault is like kryptonite.
This is why I told my latest ex that I would never do couples therapy. It just turns into the man being the focus. Even if you get a good therapist that holds both parties accountable, the woman will be unable to handle it and double down that the man is the problem.
Which is logical when you think about it because her framing of things is that the relationship is all about her in the first place.
Men need to understand that this is basically the default position for women. And it's very toxic (needless to say).
@@sammyb1651the best way to fight it is to not do relationships. They’re a man made prison and you’re doing time
Did you listen to the video?
@@canelareina3795 yes I did. The problem is that most therapists don’t focus on the relationship being the issue. They don’t hold both parties accountable. They tend to pick one person’s side which is typically the woman’s.
@@SaltyDogPerformance What does "this" refer to in your first sentence? Not this video.
Went to therapy with my wife, to a see female therapist, went about 3 times. On the last time I got into a argument with the therapist, something like "my wife is angry with the kids all the time". The therapist call me a liar, I said "Ok lets get the kids in and have a discussion", the therapist was not interested in that. Next day my wife said "we won't be going back to her as she is biased against you"! Still cannot believe my wife said that, credit to her I guess.
Hey, I call that a win, a costly win, but sometimes the husband has to pay double for a wife to acknowledge his contributions
Total win!! Things moving in the right direction there. Tell her you love it when she's like that!
You have good wife bro .
I have a friend who does couples therapy and he says they actually tell you this the first day of training that most of the ties you'll fail so don't get too emotionally involved in trying to save them. One of the big reasons is that most people don't go to couples therapy until the relationship is already effectively over. And then it's usually because the one who initiated coming to the therapy in the first place really just wants someone to agree with them and justify their opinions.
When you know someone who operates a business that offers marriage counseling and couples therapy yet is told by that person after doing it for almost 15 years, and seeing what a failure it was in addition to having marriage issues themself it firmly made me believe that it is truly a waste of time.
Did we have the same therapist? Lol
But a great business model
Yes, but the biggest reason it fails is not one that I heard OT mention. It's negativity. The climate of therapy is that you should be totally raw honest.
For a couple in a broken marriage, being brutally honest about what they REALLY think is about the worst thing they could do, if they want the marriage to last.
Your friend sees that as failure and he is correct. It is a failed approach.
Marriage coaches have a better impact IMO.
Its NOT a waste of time! it IS a waste of time for saving the current marriage/relationship, but will prove to be just as helpful as watching these very good videos by Mr. Taraban! Prevention is better than cure when it comes to relationships!
Orion is referring to couples where there is high disfunctionnality, where sometimes people may have personality problems. I went twice into therapy sessions. The first sessions helped us develop ways for solving and negotiating problems in the marriage. The second were about saving the marriage. I was still committed to that marriage; she wasn’t, so it dissolved. Nevertheless, I learned more about myself and how I could unwittingly sabotage relationships. Therefore, both therapies paid out, first for the ongoing relationship and then for the one that followed. You never know how therapy will go, but my experience says that if you go into it with honesty and an open mind, it will be worth it even if it doesn’t save your couple. The future lasting a long while, you will be glad to have learned how to become a better partner in the current or the next relationship.
Finally, a rational comment! I'm going because while I can't accept what happened in my relationship, perhaps I'll learn things I missed, or - how to end a relationship gracefully. It's hard to admit my 'unwitting sabotage' but if I don't learn it now, I'm bound to repeat it... It seems like couples go to therapy thinking it will fix them when really, the fix has to come from within
From my 60+ years of observation and experience, couples therapy can be boiled down to one principle and one principle only. It is always the man's fault.
Gotta keep him on the plantation.
A variant - the Harville Hendrix "inner child" concept re relationships - the woman gets angry because you hurt her inner child, perhaps you are symbolic of the drunken dad that hurt her. It's now YOUR responsibility not to hurt her "inner child," and if she throws a fit, by definition it's because you hurt her inner child. IOW, she has absolute license to throw fits. An absurd, no-win, catch-22 situation this moronic therapy philosophy is attempting to lay on - yup - the man.
Comments say different.
You represent to me a kind of general very hurt attitude although I can not really sense emotion in your statement.
@@TaliaMellifera I don't much care what you think, and your comments about "very hurt" is nothing more than a shaming attempt typical in situations like this. "Who hurt you." You're trying to inject "emotion" into facts. Doesn't matter what emotion I feel, this is the reality of what I and many others I have seen have experienced. And, you're a bit selective in you comment readings.
@@TaliaMellifera typical
Couple's therapy is a bit like taking an elderly dog to the vet and expecting the vet to breathe new life into the elderly dog. Sometimes its kinder just to move on and stop letting everyone suffer. People need to have healthier and more realistic expectations of relationships. Some relationships are not meant to last forever.
Nice. Now explain how you fit the kids into your scenario.
@@tperk do you what millions of people do, i.e. co-parenting. Either 50-50 custody or every other weekend for the dad. Simple.
Thank you, you couldn’t have hit the nail more on the head… I’ve been to couples therapy twice with two wives and now divorced from two wives… There are no coincidences… I’m sure working on myself would have been more beneficial.
Yeah brother. You need to work on yourself it sounds like. Even if you were not the key I problem in the relationship (and idk, maybe you were), at the minimum, something you find attractive in women is incompatible with you leading a happy life. I suggest going to therapy to pull on this thread. Might be surprised with what you come up with. Then when you look at the dating market again, you will be shopping with new eyes man.
Big W
I love to read UA-cam compilations of Reddit stories. And one story really stuck out at me. This guy and his very toxic wife were going to couple's therapy for a few months. Finally the therapist sits him down alone and tells him point-blank, "I am not supposed to say this, but you need to end this relationship." She obviously trusted him enough not to report her "professional transgression." But that's sad. Even if they think a relationship is unhealthy and irredeemable they are not allowed to say this. I would imagine for some this would be emotionally fatiguing, not being able to actually help the person who needs it. Probably a lot of them are sociop@ths or become them to cope with the lying.
I’m not a therapist but a good friend of mine (whose wife I had never met) opened up about his wife to me after years. I recognized her immediately! She was NPD like my mother. I send him applicable UA-cam videos to explain, and 6 months later he filed. Now he’s remarried to an excellent gal!
Reddit compilations are terrific. You can't make these stories up. It's pure life.
Who could report the therapist to?
@canelareina3795 APA, take her licence. They're a psychological organisation that has completely fallen head first into crazy feminazi ideology, that refers to traditional masculinity (e.g. stoicism) as basically a sickness in their 'guidance for men and boys' 😂 nutters
She just wanted the guy for herself.
This is 100 proof Truth. It is why most therapists refuse to do couples therapy. Plus, the narcissist will get offended and blow up when the victim of their abuse mentions their problematic behavior. It can get volatile quickly.
As someone who is literally a therapist…in couples therapy a lot of the time the basic setup with heterosexual couples was the woman basically saying “please change my boyfriend/husband/partner, I think he should be different in this specific way”. And then I’d say okay let’s look at how YOU BOTH CREATED THIS PROBLEM, TOGETHER. And the man would be like, I don’t understand why this is a problem, and the woman would be like, no, he’s the problem. And then we’d kind of all be frustrated and they would leave. I’m sure it works sometime but there’s a reason I don’t work with couples anymore.
Scary the women need is a pastor telling them "ackshully you're supposed to submit to your husband and do what he says, not the other way around. Of course you are always free to go to hell if you prefer." Gets church women to act right
@@cosmictreason2242 you are certainly entitled to that opinion, but it’s not one that I share.
As a Pastor, by the time a couple shows up on my doorstep for "help" in their marriage, the marriage is ALWAYS...ALWAYS...already over. Period.
My mother has a personally disorder (probably a version of NPD) and is absolutely an emotional terrorist. My father fell for the whole mental health/therapy model and is also just generally an ineffectual person. As a result, my brother and I suffered an enormous amount of unnecessary abuse. I am in my early 40s, they are still married and he is still being tormented. I visit for maybe one day every year.
On the one hand, I’ve done a lot of work to deal with my own issues and am the only one in my entire family that has any concept of what normal, healthy relationships might look like. But I’m also extremely cautious about them and still unmarried, which is not really where I wanted to be at this point.
Any way, thank you for your video and channel. These are valuable insights. It’s a shame that the people who most need to hear them probably have no interest.
Dude, I am in the same boat. I COMPLETELY empathize.
I grew up with a mom who, I believe, had some form of NPD or BPD, or maybe even some mix of the two. I wasn't physically abused (I think) but the psychological after-effects of being raised by her have, I think, really affected my ability to have good relationships. Romantic ones anyway.
My Platonic friendships are mostly OK, but I used to attract some real characters into my life. People who treated me like shit, because that's what I was used to.
Sigh. If I continue I might end up writing an autobiography.
Anyway, point is that I completely empathize.
Similar experience. Overall a stable upbringing overall but my father fell out of love with my mother after childbirth and cancer, and in her effort to deal with her insecurity became extremely domineering. He would simply leave or not come home to deal with it, and that made me the target. Not having the privilege of leaving the house, my method of regaining control was to relinquish desire for anything that she could take from me as punishment - friends, toys, etc. One time she was so desperate to assert dominance that she actually took my homework, after identifying that that was the only thing i cared about. about. Her most common tactic was to provoke you until you expressed the slightest displeasure and then claiming that your reaction was the reason why she picked the fight. She would never let you speak, lest you defuse the conflict or prove to her that she was wrong. I simply could not match her energy, because she could bytch for three hours at a time without leaving you enough dead air to interrupt her thought. If you were speaking and she talked over you and you kept speaking , she accused you of interrupting her. It was truly something. If i can MERELY get s woman who is willing to listen to what i say and not drown me out as a defense mechanism, i can turn dust to diamonds in s relationship because i can emotionally tolerate anything less thawhst i got from my mother. And you can't top it, because the only way to be worse is to cross the line into criminal activity . I am prepared to handle anything. I am a rock. But like you, i too have been unenthusiastic about chasing women because I've seen what they can be like, what contempt looks like. I don't want to recreate my parens' relationship. As far as not doing what my dad did, I'm in the clear. But as far as not marrying my mother, maybe the reason I'm single to the extent that it's by choice is because if i see a sign of a woman being stubborn or irrational, im out of there. Maybe I'm just too scared, and can't discriminate between normal feminine emotion and malignant narcissism. I've never seen a healthy woman up close, and it's ruined my ability to identify a good woman -- though I'm at no risk of misidentifying a bad one as good. But if i never heal and learn how to positively identify a woman with a good soul, i don't suppose I'll ever be married.
My mother suffered some terrible abuse as a child and to a lesser extent perpetuates some of it on people around her. After her divorce, both my sister and I gently suggested that maybe she could live a happier life if she saw a professional to whom she could talk about it all and perhaps work through it. Big mistake! She was FURIOUS. "I'm not crazy!" she shouted, "YOU'RE crazy!" It's almost hilarious in retrospect... that's not how a non-crazy person responds to a loving suggestion from her children.
Actually, our couples therapist pulled me aside, told me my ex was the most narcissistic person she'd ever worked with, and to get as far away from her ASAP "before she destroys you." She was not wrong.
I'm also a psychologist, and yes, I agree that couples therapy most often fails. Therapists tend to side with women, which isn't fair to either party. Also, it fails because both parties should do individual tx either first or simultaneously.
5:38 This is exactly right. To inspire desire in a woman, the man’s actions are antithetical to the couples therapy process! Absolutely right. And it’s unilateral, exactly right.
Talking about the relationship is the worst thing a man can do. Silence and distance are the best remedies.
@@joncarbone "Silence and distance are the best remedies" The way I teach it is, say only what you choose to say, you never have to answer every one of her questions. It's similar to your "silence." And find your path in life and pursue it with everything you have. If she decides to follow you, great. If not, then it's like your "distance."
I went through couples therapy once with my then fiancé, and of course I paid for it. It was an absolutely miserable experience. I certainly am not and was not perfect and I made a number of concessions to try to meet her half way at the counselor’s request right off the bat. In the end, my fiance met her points with massive resistance and resentment, so the counselor came back to me for more concessions. Then again. And again. And again.
Even when I brought up among my issues that I was never allowed to voice anything at home (we lived together and her family lived with us) and any time there was an argument I got kicked out of the house I was paying for, the counselor defaulted back to asking for more concessions from me.
Neither of them seemed to understand when I threw up my hands and said I was done with the therapy.
I’ll never do it again. Absolutely horrible.
Please tell me you sold the house and moved away
My goodness men let a lot slide hey.
@@cosmictreason2242 Well, let's not understate how stupid I was in this situation. I moved in with her, so my name wasn't on the house's title. I did move out, though.
@@briandarkwolf458 yeah that's worse than i assumed. Paying for a house that wasn't yours. The picture of "pay pig" in the dictionary
@@briandarkwolf458🤕🤕🥴😬🤐
I agree with this 100%. Everyone needs to hear this. Couples counselling convinced us that we could make it as a couple by giving us lingo about needs etc., but in fact, the advice we really would have needed was to break up. It was a false confidence, and one pregnancy later, after just two years, we were separated and soon after divorced.
Ouch! Sorry to hear that. Must be painful to be away from your child and be on 16 years of child support and heated co-parenting.
@@marriagecausesdivorce7540yep, pretty much. We do 50-50 and that’s awesome but obviously still not according to plan.
@@mark9294 hang in there Mark, never nice when the plan doesn't make it through to fruition. Thanks for sharing your story and insight into how it's a bit of false hope at the end when the real solution is inevitable if not immediately visible.
@@marriagecausesdivorce7540 he was probably fine until you rubbed his face in it...
For your kid's sake, don't move out of the house. Better to suck it up and get abused each day for 16 years than pay child support.
Rebecca Lynn Pope quit being a date coach for women because most of them had RIDICULOUS standards and were too self centered to take accountability for their actions. I've seen some flawed men take responsibility for their actions, rarely ever women.
True. In relationships, women tend to place the blame for ANY misbehavior on someone or something else. They are literally UNABLE to bear the responsibility of any mistakes or bad decisions.
@@TheRawlingsVery toxic
Men tend to have more established morals and ethics due to the more straightforward and direct nature of how they are. Women have a much more grey approach to such things, wherein they will do an absolute runaround on everything under the sun trying to connect point A with point B, while men will simply draw a straight (more or less) line.
If you surveyed single men you would also find a fair number that were simply never going to make it. There's a correlation between being desirable for marriage, and being already taken.
Often in the case of men that is ALSO because their standards don't comport with what they have to offer, which is what RLP was sometimes telling women.
@@rickstoic6907even though I have plenty to offer, I avoid women because I know their game and it destroys my peace and robs my freedom if I engage in it beyond short bouts of make believe
this video made me realize how predatory most therapists are for not being honest with themselves and/ or the clients enough to actually Help them
Mental health therapy is a business first
sadly everything is. but its especially sad to see in therapy as it is Specifically supposed to help you@@annarboriter
Great analysis. You bring up some things I've considered and several I haven't. My personal experience with couple's therapy is that it's a joke. The narrative from the counselor is often predicated on the man acceding to a woman's demands and to her world view. Holding the woman accountable is near impossible a lot of the time.
Psych departments were infiltrated by feminist ideologues even before they infected all the rest of the education system
I did couples therapy with my ex. She just sat there and didn't say anything so I started talking about what I wanted to change and the whole therapy routine started to be about ME compromising to get what I want and she didn't have to make any concessions. I was young and dumb and will never to that again. I'm glad I know why now. As was said in this video if it isn't right it isn't right and move her out and you on.
You’re the most honest and practical psychologist I have seen! You speak my mind in a lot of ways! I like your “Why men have midlife crisis” talk as well.
Thanks for so many excellent points.
My understanding, and experience, of one point made in this video
..people treat you the way you train them, or tolerate.
The metaphysical approach that couple’s therapy base their work on is fundamentally wrong at its core. They inherently assume that men are the perpetrators most of the time due to the physical advantages that men hold over women, mostly ignoring how emotionally destructive women can be in relationships. This put the pressure on men and husbands to do most of the fixing on their end, not holding the other party accountable. This almost never works out and relationships end anyway because it takes 2 to make a relationship work.💯
... *Bars Sir, bars.* 👌💯👏
One thing I had to learn the hard way myself is that the only thing you can control is yourself. Making others responsible for your reactions is in fact just a lack of responsibility. You cannot control how the world operates or what and how others say something to you but you can control your inner processing and your reaction to it. Shifting the blame onto the other person is immature.
Thank you. This is so helpful to understand why two years of intense couple therapy didn't safe my relationship. After the breakup the therapist said to me: "This relationship had to end". So my question was: "Why didn't you tell us???"
Answer: "Because I'm being paid by the hour."
Most people have lots of difficulty changing their character pattens that have been developed very early in life. Woman’s emotional levels tend to make the situation worse because issues are never resolved, they just get put on the back burner until she gets a chance to move them to the front burner again. Spotting these problems very early and terminating the relationship is the best course as the farther it goes the more the man will have to lose.
Therapy worked great for us, because it helped me to define what the problem actually was. I was able to solve the problem myself, I just needed help figuring out what the problem actually was.
Was it couples therapy or individual therapy? If it was couples therapy, do you think it might also have been revealed in individual therapy?
@@TheRomans9Guy -- Couples, and I don't think so, because I originally thought the issue was an aspect of our relationship, rather than being a personal issue.
I’m nosy what was the issue
@@artisticagi -- I was jealous of her in certain aspects of the relationship. What came out in therapy is that I was NOT actually jealous of those aspects, but instead I was jealous of her wins.
I had been on a losing streak in several aspect of my life for several months, and was "blaming" aspects of our relationship for how I felt. The therapist helped us to more clearly define what the actual issue was.
Good for you, my man.
I absolutely agree. I have been asked: " Do you want to be right or do you want to save your relationship?"
The point is: Say I am right- how could I possibly save this relationship?
Unfortunately, I was right.
LOVE your channel! You show piercing insight into the complex world of dating and relationships. Devouring EVERY video!
The main thesis of this video is true and well put. One detail I wonder about, though, is the suggestion that each person act in their own self interest, and that they should find someone who tolerates their selfishness and whose selfishness they tolerate. This might be a good idea in the beginning stages of a relationship in order to figure out if it should continue, but for many people the idea is for a relationship to develop into something more that two people getting what they want; the idea is to form a family. Once kids are involved, it seems the relationship itself may need its own advocate to prevent the parents acting selfishly, often at the expense of the child's psyche and financial future. All that said, I still don't know how much help couple's therapy is in these situations.
This happened to me. I was unknowingly in a relationship with a narcissist, who blamed me for all the issues we had. The couples counselor privately told me later that he couldn't tell me at first that she was a narcissist, because we had come to the therapist to keep us together.
If you are going to couples therapy its already over, she is just trying to get someone to agree with her so she can feel better about herself.
Which is logical when you think about it because her framing of things is that the relationship is all about her in the first place.
Men need to understand that this is basically the default position for women. And it's very toxic (needless to say).
My mother, the abuser, from time to time, would get my father & she into therapy. Then she’d put a list of things HE can do on the refrigerator that would inflate her well being. Never ever ever the other way around.
He lived in his bedroom until age 81 he passed away after his prostate cancer metastasized.
Of course she abused him-even when he was sick.
He felt like nothing, useless, worthless.
Unbelievable.
He was an awesome man. Provided for all of us.
She hates me as well, “I’m just like my father”. I’m a daughter.
I can commiserate
Sorry to hear that.
Overall, I agree with your conclusion. Having been married, gone to couples therapy, gotten divorced, had individual therapy.
My experience with couples therapy was that the counselor suggested, twice, in the first five minutes that divorce was an option.
Also, I would say that the woman is usually responsible for initiating counseling, and counseling centers on HER issues.
I agree you can't negotiate desire.
It seems to me that "happy wife, happy life" applies, although we must UNDERSTAND that women don't have a CLUE what makes them HAPPY!!
Clearly, I learned this lesson too late.
wrong""happy wife, happy life", right "happy spouse, happy house" it is meant to be a team
HWHL is a lie from the pit of hell
He said that couples counselors always try to keep couples together.
My wife only wants someone to back her up on how right she is. If the therapist is not going to serve that purpose, she has no need for that therapy.
phenomenal video. you are one of the few people on this platform that actually have something unique and genuinely insightful to say
God dude, you are a breath of fresh air. I wish more therapists could understand this stuff.
I think the more you like someone, the smaller the compromise looks, even if it's the exact same compromise. So if you don't like your partner AT ALL, something small like not getting your favourite dish for dinner becomes a HUGE deal to throw tandrum over. Because you feel like you already compromised to be with them, someone you don't authentically like, any further compromise feels like too much. On the flip side, if you like them, being with them is more akin to a privilege and not compromise, so your compromise box has lots of room for other compromises.
This is an exact verbalization of everything I was feeling during me and my ex-wife’s initial separation. She was trying to get me to go to therapy with her, but it never felt right to me. Thanks brother. 🙏🏽
As a therapist in practice for over 10 years, I can attest to this and support this message.
This vid was one of the most illuminating posts I have ever seen. I am convinced that couples therapy is fundamentally flawed.
Thank you, Dr, for presenting this in a concise, definitive way.
Here is an insight into couples therapy that I’ve had while going through it. The best a couples counselor can do, and the most effective they can be, is when they take on the role of “the bad guy”.
Chances are, one person in the relationship is acting like crap. Maybe more, but at least one. A therapist that takes the ideas and thoughts of that person and throws them at the other will do one of two things. Either make the non crappy person decide it’s over, OR make the person who refused to see their behavior come to the defense of their partner. We excuse behavior in ourselves to our partner that we would never allow another to do, and it’s often only after seeing someone else parrot our words at them that we realize how we’ve acted.
Telling my wife how she was acting did nothing, but our therapist doing the same thing made my wife super protective and aghast that she had behaved that way.
Not saying it will always work, but if the people still care about each other, nothing bonds like a common enemy.
The therapist was your enemy?
@@canelareina3795 Generally speaking most therapists in couples counseling are the man's enemy. Taking the woman's side is always best for business.
Take the guy's side, the couple won't be back for week 2.
I'll be starting couples therapy soon. I wondered about that, but I feel that I will end up thinking that my wife doesn't really care what I say but will listen to other people.
@@neohermitist So the best thing I can tell you is that if you do what most men normally do, turn off and feel attacked, then your wife and the therapist will have a nice conversation about how bad you are and nothing productive will happen.
Now, if YOU are the problem (chances are you know), then the best strategy is to admit it and develop a plan to address it. Men mostly despise just talking about what they feel and why. There is nothing productive in that, but women love it. If you sit back and be quiet, that is all therapy will be and you'll get nothing from it but a bill.
Direct the conversation and challenge the therapist. The therapist will absolutely start on your wife's side, but the best you can do is make the therapist grudgling admit that you have a point.
Basically have the conversation with the therapist you feel you and your wife need to have, and make your wife watch. She'll either side with you (which means you can save it), or not..... Good luck
Wow! Yes, your points rang out loudly to me. I am inclined to agree, even despite my situation being somewhat of an outlier. I actually did have a therapist tell me, very directly, in our 1st (and last) couples session that I need to let the relationship go.
She said this right in front of my then partner, who, I'm sure the therapist could see, though I couldn't at the time, suffers from a cluster b personality disorder. I left that relationship shortly after and continued personal therapy for myself with that same therapist.
I highly enjoy your content. Very often well explained, easy to follow. And helps to change the own perspective, makes one more accountable for ones state. Thank you.
Brilliant Dr.Orion! Simply Brilliant. i love the part between 7.50' and 8.25' and 8.27' to 9.00'
' Certain things dont need be to understood. They just need to change. And understanding does not by itself inevitably lead to change.'
What a fascinating and tremendous insight. Thank you Dr.Orion. i think by just sharing this insight you have immensely helped a lot of couples grappling with relationship issues in todays world. Intriguingly fascinating because you get clarity without pressing the need for absolute clarity why temper tantrums or other relationship issues happen. Wonderful. Thank you so much.
Couples therapy is basically the man admitting he is too incompetent to lead and manage the relationship and is delegating to a more competent party. No woman wants to be with an incompetent man, it's dangerous. As a man, you should be of sound mind, sufficient to be able to assess your own actions, and her actions, and determine the action necessary to correct it. It's like managing a business. If your partnership is toxic and the other party is at fault, it's on you to assess and terminate the relationship, not let it drag on. If you are the problem, but too dishonest with yourself, or too incompetent to realize you're the problem, you should probably have some single time to reflect and figure yourself out. This is why I dislike drugs and alcohol, a man has to have a clear mind to make decisive and wise decisions, otherwise he'll let himself and his loved ones down.
Exactly correct
Our therapist has been excellent so far and has pointed out to both of us that our life goals are completely incompatable, and we will never resolve that. Remaining married simply kicks the ball down the road until the next big fight. Because we can now both see that, it is making our seperation easier, as there is less blamethowing. We are each, in our own way, "responsible" for the life goals we have and, to a large extent, we are not to blame because those goals are fundamentally opposite. Where we are at fault is not recognizing these faults before we got married 4 years ago, and we both regret that.
What are the life goals and why didn't that come up before getting married?
@@thorie79 My goal is to travel and enjoy life. Her goal is to work all the time to send money to her family. We have age, culture and family differences. There were plenty of red flags before we got married, but we both didn't see them.
this was a great one. evoking melange of tears ( almost) of delight with phantom pain.
It doesn’t work because of one core philosophy: You CANNOT negotiate genuine burning desire.
She may give you the physical intimacy you wanted after the therapy; But since it is negotiated, she will resent you for it.
Not in general. Not every relationship has a "burning desire" problem.
@@gargoyle7863 What does your particular experience say?
Exactly. You cant convince someone to stay if they dont want to be with you
Receptionist at publishing house: "how do you write women so well?"
Melvin Udall: "I think of man. Then I take away reason, and accountability"
-As Good As It Gets, 1997
1:20 ... This is so weird but there was a guy in the comments section of one of your previous videos, who said this exact scenario happened to him. In his case the therapist after seeing them both, and observing the flare up of anger and the eay the woman spoke to him, asked to speak to them individually and he told the guy to leave her and find someone else and therapy from him will not solve anything.
Wish I could remember what video the comment was on, I clearly remember seeing it and thinking how rare it must be for a therapist to do this and noble of them not to milk the couple for money.
What video was everyone watching? I thought he said couples counselors try to keep couples together, even if they should break up.
Absolutely Golden. With Orion’s help we might just avoid trainwrecks
No problem can't be made worse by talking about it. In my previous marriage counseling just brought everything to the surface once this happened I wanted those issues resolved. She wanted the counselor to pick a side, hers, and tell me to get in line. There was one positive, we divorced shortly afterwards saving us years of further misery for a similar outcome.
Hi Dr. Orion. Thank you so much for the insight. I was impressed by the term “emotional terrorist” which perfectly described my current partner. English is not my first language whereas it is hers. I think she‘s taking advantage of that plus women tend to be more expressive with words，making it worse. She throws tantrums at me being very fussy and irritable. I self reflected on myself and agreed with what you said. I chose her and have been almost the one to compromise even though I was at the upperhand at the very beginning. She said several times that never been anyone that treated her well like me not even her family；I was out of her league；etc. She is a beautiful sweet girl but somehow turned into bitter angry woman who picks on me. I guess I “spoiled” her too much because I was trying to overcompensate it from my last long-term relationship. Sorry to expand so much but my question is that how do you deal with the “EMOTIONAL TERRORIST” instead of going to couple therapy that apparently doesnt work？Just stop reaching out to them to the point that they come back and if not，move on？
I agree. It's mostly a scam and quite a dark one as the therapist is filling his pockets handsomely at the dispense of desperate people.
Damn man, you’re hitting all the big topics, I appreciate it
You are a gem of a psychologist, Dr. Taraban!
Guys - just stop tolerating bad behavior. If we all do it together - it will stop. Women are not going to build houses and lead armies by themselves. We have all the power already we just have to use it.
gross
For me, couples therapy was not a waste of time and money. It didn't save my marriage, but it taught me things about myself, my now ex-wife, and men and women in general.
It's because of creators like you (and a few more) that I feel thankful for having UA-cam in my life. :)
I even understand this in another way. My best friend (male of course) and myself managed to discuss and even overcome issues that suppressed our relationship for years. The way indeed was to not talk about it, which eventually made it possible to bring it up and resolve it. Orion is really blessed. I'm grateful to hear his expertise!
“Be selfish and find someone else who’s selfishness you can live with”
😂
My dude, I think this still counts as compromise but it definitely communicates a much better way you should approach things.
My church has mandatory marriage classes for those wanting to get married. If they don’t make it through with the priests approval, they don’t get married. A lot of hardships can be avoided with this approach to begin with
If they can detect clinically significant narcissism in either party, they'd be doing a real service.
I'm not against per-marital counseling, but presuming you go to a Catholic church, I'd wonder what help a priest could give...certainly they wouldn't have much experience.
@@nathanbanks2354 I’m Orthodox so our priests are married with children, unlike catholic priests who are celibate. We also don’t believe in annulments which is why we take pre-marriage counseling so seriously
Absolute Truth! Keep up the good work.
Very insightful and useful observations. It's hard to solve a problem that you haven't yet bothered to define.
I just broke up a 18m long relationship and simply did not have the life force to do couples therapy after trying it during two previous divorces.
Helle-fuckin-luja! About time someone called this out!
The best episode I've seen recently.
This was a good one! You cannot keep a relationship with somebody who has acomplicated relationship with truth😊
I've been there. 100% doesn't work. My ex was there to get someone to side with her. She didn't follow any advice, and when the therapist didn't take sides, she gave up. Take the money you save and put it towards a better lawyer.
In the words of Chris Rock: " There's no money in the cure." They just want you to keep coming back as long as possible so they can collect those checks.
😂 I died when Orion said "you don't negotiate with terrorists".
Great presentation, makes all sense to me! Merry Christmas! 🎅🎄🕯
As the old saying goes, couples therapy is the last stop before the end of the line.
My parents are divorced. Back in the year 2000. About 5 years ago I asked my mom why they got divorced and she briefly said "communication problems". I still with my mom (at 29, ashamedly), and she does things that are dumb, ridiculous, and inefficient. When I point out her behaviours, she never changes them, and the same problems keep happening. Over and over again. When I get mad, she accuses me of yelling at her. Despite the problem never going away or ger slipping back into bad habits.
Moral of the story is that ifa couple divorces because of 'communication problems', it's more than likely the woman not holding herself accountable to her bad behaviour than it is the man not 'understanding' her.
Man, you need to take a job anywhere in the country and if you haven't saved up two months rent then live or if got car and shower at the gym. Move out immediately.
once again, your message is full of gems.
Thank you Dr. Orion for sharing this amazing information ❤️
He Cooked here👌👌👌🙏🙏🔥🔥🔥🔥
I've been to couple therapy in Russia, and the therapist has actually advised us to terminate the relationship (which proved to be a good piece of advice), so, i guess, the effectiveness ultimately depends on the therapist
Amazing episode, again! Thanks, dude.
The best again! Just quality ❤
Going to couples' therapy is like when corporate management hires McKinsey:
- the decision has already been taken by management;
- management just needs a third party to go through the motions;
- McKinsey knows who is paying them, and it isn't the ordinary workers...
- guess who gets the shaft?
Yeah, I went a couple of times, it was a joke, the divorce was way better.
Spot on. I carefully explained her egregious behavior to the therapist, and he told us we needed to communicate better. I didn't need her and the therapist both gaslighting me.
7:00 Exactly right. The few times I’ve made the mistake of telling the man the truth in front of his wife, the wives have completely lost their shit! Lol.
I am interested in examples. :D
@@patrickb.4749 Just telling the men they absolutely need to stop listening to their wives' words and decide for themselves how they should be acting. I would tell them stop doing what she says she wants and start doing what you think you should be doing. Drives the wives nuts. On the other hand, once the men start treating their wives like they would/should treat any woman two things happen, the man starts to be come crystal clear about his purpose in life, and it becomes crystal clear if the woman is a good woman or not. Before giving this advice, the men are always at their wits ends because they can't make their women happy, and they believe their job in all the world is to make them happy. It's completely backwards. You cannot look to the women's happiness level to determine your worth. You must establish your own worth. If you do, THAT'S what will make her happy.
@@TheRomans9Guy Well said, well said, laying out the truth here.