Healing, Joy, & ADHD Beyond Mormonism - David Bokovoy Pt. 4 | Ep. 1878
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- Опубліковано 11 лип 2024
- Ever wonder what happens when a faithful Mormon Bible scholar has a crisis of faith and steps away from the religion he dedicated his life to? David Bokovoy's candid interview takes you on a riveting personal journey from staunch believer to "spiritual atheist." He pulls no punches in describing how the Church's controversial 2015 LGBTQ+ policy shattered his worldview, leading him to lose his testimony and leave Mormonism behind. With raw honesty and hard-won wisdom, he shares profound insights about the transformative power of education from his work in prison rehabilitation. He grapples with weighty questions of free will, authenticity, and human connection.
You'll be captivated by his stories of finding the "Holy Ghost" outside of religion, confronting trauma through therapy, and continually evolving his understanding of truth. Brimming with thought-provoking perspectives on everything from ADHD to patriarchy to psychedelics, Bokovoy's interview is a must-see for anyone on their own journey of self-discovery beyond rigid belief systems.
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Episode Show Notes: www.mormonstories.org/portfol...
Chapters
00:00:00 Intro/Recap
00:17:50 Working for the prison education system
00:31:54 How much free will do we actually have?
00:43:50 Experiencing the Holy Ghost after leaving the church
00:49:00 The Greatest Salesman in the world
00:57:25 Leaving is worth the pain & shame
00:58:45 ADHD - everybody should learn how their brain works
01:16:05 Healing is a journey
01:38:22 Passionate about Mormon scholarship
01:43:05 Doctrine is anti-family
01:47:10 shame and violence
01:59:05 Leaving the church comes down to luck
02:03:22 David’s journey around fitness
02:12:43 Four H’s Hard, Habit, Hobby, Have to
02:22:15 Deconstructing patriarchy
02:30:30 Parenting
02:32:35 Alcohol and substance use
02:35:50 Transformative education
02:52:29 The Bible and the Latter Day Saint Tradition
02:57:18 Nickels and dimes sung by David Bokovoy
03:01:50 Closing remarks
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As a former public defender, I want to thank Mr. Bokovoy for his work in the prison and truly seeing his students’ humanity.
David would make an awesome bishop. If only the church had bishops like him.
The world needs more David Bokovoys
I commented on the first part, but I LOVE this man!! My favorite seminary teacher without a doubt, and one of my heroes. David, if you're reading this, you've had a major impact on one of your Jordan High students.
I have a distinct memory of walking into his class the day after the November 2015 policy dropped and he was just devastated and dropped his lesson plan to talk about it and answer questions.
He was also my seminary teacher in 2017 a year before he left! He was a great teacher!
Had David been there when i went to Jordan (2011 grad) i might actually gone to seminary instead of leaving or skipping it
In re: being selfish; this just highlights the difference between the experience of being a man exiting Mormonism, and being a woman leaving. As a Mormon woman, it's beaten into your skull that your only reason for existing is to serve others. Not only should you put your needs last; you're not supposed to even HAVE needs. Of course, caring about other people is a good thing. But as a woman leaving Mormonism, I needed to hear, and feel, that a little self care wasn't going to make the world stop turning.
self-abandonment is a concept that finally landed in me when someone else named their own
I was a seminary student of Dr. Bokovoy and still cherish the time I spent in his seminary classroom. David’s love for us students and his passion for teaching was such an amazing gift.
As someone who deals with ADHD and all of the challenges that come with it, this interview has been a beautiful gift. Thank you John, Margi and David!!
David is a great example of someone who has continued to grow beyond just deconstructing LDS truth claims. I relate so much to him and his experience post Mormonism.
David has only been on the podcast a handful of times, but I can't overstate how much David and his approach to scripture/religion influenced my faith journey. Thank you for sharing your story!
I absolutely love listening to David speak, he exudes kindness and compassion. What a wonderful human being.
My opinion, Mr. David Bokovoy is a Seriously SPECIAL Individual ! His gentleness, humility, and critical thinking skills are a rare, unique and desperately needed ingredient to All Organized Religion . Thank you for having him on !
The world would enjoy more Davids if there was no organized religion -- and no public education.
I don’t understand why Mormon Stories has been the most soothing routine for me these past 7 years since leaving the church, but it never fails 🤷🏼♀️
I’ve been watching the earlier interviews. Not only is he brilliant, but also sweet and loving.
I visited the schizophrenic ward at a mental hospital with a psych class, and we were given an orientation by a Catholic Priest who was caring for the sick, forgotten, and I truly saw Jesus in him, just like the work this gentleman does.
I am a member and I also have ADHD and I have dyslexia and I am currently trying to read the book from the first interview. I was so inspired by that first interview. I too love this man.
David - please press John to have an ADHD episode - the physiology and how social circumstances impact - and the superpower with the benefits for everyone.
What does this even mean?
@@cabrown308 - all brains need neurotransmitters, chemicals that connect nerve cells. The ADHD brain doesn't have the full complement of neurotransmitters, but excitement can prompt the brain to make neurotransmitters. And this is where social circumstance comes in - if you're rich you can pay for exciting activities. If you're poor exciting activity might be illegal. Globally 40% of prison populations are ADHD. This illustrates the superpower - about 11% of entrepreneurs are ADHD. The global incidence of ADHD is 4 to 5%. The world benefits if the usefulness of ADHD is used.
A very simplistic explanation - please correct!
Guess that's why a whole video is being requested...
All the things, David!!! I identify so much with all your ADHD!
“I didn’t finish that book!!!” 😂
Integrity!! Every word he says seems to show how much integrity this gentleman has. Thanks for showing us how to thrive after fundamentalist religion.
I find this man to be saintly -- in the truest sense of the word.
What a gentle, sincere & deeply spiritual person-he sounds like a man with great integrity ♥️♥️♥️
I’m a never Mormon/any religion. He has been one of my favorite interviews. His song is beautiful ❤
As a never-mo, thank you for sharing your research with the rest of us!!! As a practicing Episcopalian I study religion as a hobby, and I L❤VE Mr Bokovoy’s insights!!!
Wow, i had no idea i was going to need this episode today. I recently decided that i want to start my masters in chaplaincy despite me now being fully agnostic and identifying as spiritual. I’m 36 with 8 year old twins and I’m scared, but this show has given me countless examples of blooming again later in life. Thanks to all of you ❤
You dont need to identify as spiritual to be spiritual -- you cant not be spiritual -- it is what you are! Recognizing it is a true birth day! Happy Birth Day! Welcome to the party! 🎈
I left the church years before the 2015 doctrine went into place yet it was still very painful for myself and my husband to learn about it. We are not part of the church anymore but we still consider ourselves culturally Mormon and it reminded us that the love of the church leaders is conditional. If I didn't know any better, I would think that the leadership wanted people like us to check out.
What an amazing conversation, thank you all for sharing your thoughts ❤❤❤
Can't wait!!! What a man! When I grow up, I wanna be like him. 👏👏👏
Why wait? Be your Self now!
David Bokovoy was one of my seminary teachers and was, by far, the most influential teacher I ever had and absolutely my favorite teacher ever. I'm so excited to see a new episode featuring him and to get a chance to figuratively learn at his feet again.
Wow, wow, wow. So inspiring for me. I have a lot in common with this man, especially having ADHD and I love people too, I love being authentic and being open with people and sharing in a real and raw way. I realize that some people don’t value those things, but I am working on accepting who I am as a person and letting those who don’t respect or value me for who I am weed themselves out of my life, or at least learning boundaries with those people.
I think this is one of your best episodes, John! I really appreciate David's outlook on life and he seems so genuinely happy and at peace in the world! David has really inspired me (and you always do, too, John)!!! Thank you for this wonderful, wonderful three hours!!! Your podcasts are NEVER too long for me!!!!
Thank you so much for this. I have ADHD and learned so much from this- a little late (I'm 82) but it explains so much in my life that I've been apologizing for or trying to explain about myself for many years. Also a former Catholic, so I'm interested in cults and patriarchy. So many points to connect with. Grateful for this channel and your journey as well, John.
Incredible series of interviews with Dr. Bokovoy. Not just the story, knowledge, discussion of spirituality but providing an in depth understanding of ADHD from an adult. Left me with some serious understanding of some people that I can apply to healing relationships. Thank you!
We loved David as our seminary teacher at Grantsville High School ❤
Thank you for doing a follow-up episode with David. After watching the episodes from 5 years ago, I was curious as to how his faith crisis was going. While our journey is never fully complete, it was clear he was still working things out back then and doing some extreme intellectual contortions to keep the church working for him. I was a little sadden that he now identifies himself as an atheist rather than maintaining some form of nuanced Christianity. It seems so often many Mormons lose not only their faith in the church but in God altogether. As someone who has gone through it and desires to find a new church, I understand. My wife and I have had numerous conversations about faith, religion, being a part of a belief system and part of a church community. After going through our faith crises, we sometimes wonder if it is worth knowing what we know now. Of course we don't want to live in ignorance and continue to be manipulated by the church, church beliefs and leaders but sometimes we miss our young and naïve selves. The red pill can be very bitter.
This series has been way interesting, informative, inspiring and entertaining. Thx
I connected so much with David’s previous interview and I feel even more touched by this conversation. Thank you.
Beautiful,Beautiful,Beautiful 💞 One of my favorites!
I love him and his spirituality.
What a guy - so grateful to listen to him.
I will go back and listen to the rest of the David Bokovoy content. I am somehow saddened to hear David became atheist as a result of his journey beyond Mormonism. I also faced atheism in my own faith journey after my divorce. The trauma from how I was treated once I removed my husband, who had broken my jaw, out of my house was overwhelming. I could not believe the people who were closest friends and even family simply turned their backs. 2 of my 3 kids are atheist as a result of our divorce process. This saddens me greatly. I still believe there is a higher power. I still believe I see the evidence of a higher power around me. I very much miss the fellowship I once had from my church family when I was able to follow all of the rules - like stay married. Still I am very wary of any organized faith system.
I'm sorry that happened to you and I hope you're doing well now. But I just want to say you don't need to feel sad for atheists. Many of us are happy and thriving - we just are not convinced that anything exists beyond the physical world. I can only speak for myself but I still find the world endlessly fascinating and beautiful despite my lack of belief in a higher power. I don't need that belief to make me whole anymore. I'm happy for those who do believe and think people should be able to believe what feels real and genuine for them, and for most of us that will likely evolve throughout our lives.
Would love to listen to a david bokovoy podcast.
As a nevermo this mans energy and heart is beautiful
David your earlier podcasts were vital in shaping my perspective and validating my experience during my “dark night of the soul” 3 years ago.
This “where are they now” interview has once again provided me more perspective as I continue my journey out of Mormonism, because not all moments have been gracefully executed. Thank you for being vulnerable and sharing some of your missteps along the way.
You may not have all the answers, but you sure provide direction in the long hike we call life
Love ya'll very much! Its heroic and inspiring to hear ya'll speak. It is very difficult leaving mormonism, ya'll are apart of my journey in life. Take care of yourselves, and keep doing good work. Let's build a better kinder world!
David is an empath! Many with ADHD and Highly Sensitive People .(HSP) are VERY empathic. 👍
David is a true prophet plain and simple..and I speak accepting his idea of a prophet❤great episodes! Thank you David, John, Margi and crew
What a sweet man!❤
David Bokovoy is one of my favorite humans! I hope I can someday meet you, man! Yout energy and journey are all so beautiful. Thank you for all you have done for so many in their faith transition, as myself. ❤
THANK YOU for discussing ADHD it is so misunderstood!
I have adhd, and I was a gifted kid. None of the stereotypes fit me because I was excellent with school.
Thank you David!
Transformative Journey...so relatable.
I felt the spirit when David recounted going back and comforting his past self.
I moved to a small town in San Pete County. Highly LDS, as am I, and I'm sad to say they are some of the rudest, clique, people I've ever met. So going to church isn't helping them tap into loving people. I say all the time, I miss having any form of human connection. If your not from here you are to be seen as suspect.
This is so true .. not just in Sanpete County .. but in most Mormon communities.
What an amazing human!
1:04:18 yes Margie!! With my flavor of ADHD I was able to do well in school, but my sister who is ADHD/autistic floundered. It’s not because my sister wasn’t intelligent (because she is very very smart) but it was because the structure of school stifled her.
I already loved you, David, and already knew Coco was wonderful, but somehow love you both more now!
David, your song is beautiful ❤
Well as a follow up to my comment on the previous video, I have so much respect for David. Making the decisions and transitions that he did must have been so difficult. My impression of him is that once again he is a highly intelligent and thoughtful individual who allowed himself to take the only path that he felt he could take. Such a kind hearted guy. I'm in no way religious or spiritual, but if I needed a chaplain, I'd want him to be just like David.
I understand this man perfectly. I come from a Catholic background which I left behind some years ago as the idea of God and an afterlife dissipated and became ridiculously unlikely. But living out the true teachings of Jesus Christ makes a lot of sense for living a happy life. I'm lucky to have plenty of occasions where I can do some good to others through my field of work and as a family member. And he's right, there's so much happiness to be had in loving and helping others.
This is greatest MS interview ever. ❤❤. Thank you 🙏🏻
That song at the end was fire 🔥 👍
Og Mandino was the prophet in my childhood also!
Jesus taught about the “least of these”. David is a very great man.
Love this !!
Thank you David for sharing your story and wisdom with such humility, love, and vulnerability. Definitely a five star interview worth watching many times over.
I'm not morman, but I find Morman Stories incredibly helpful to me personally and in my work as a therapist working with trauma survivors. I'm wondering if you would as people: what woke you up; what approach someone could take to begin supporting anyone in reprogramming and assuming greater personal agency in decision making--best approaches; how if anyone maintained or developed their own spirituality, religious practices, spiritual community with free personal agency. Thanks so much.
This was all around a fantastic episode, but we need to hear more about the Bokovoy postmormon diet and exercise plan for getting massively jacked!
while all the Indigenous practices involving substances were being listed, i remembered several sweatlodge experiences that were subtly and deeply affecting. i wasnt able to continue attending, but I can well imagine that regular sweatlodge can be a life-transforming practice.
I know someone who's a friend who is ADHD & and he's an Aries on top of it, but they are highly intelligent people, the just don't keep the minds focused on one thing for too long. For example: he & I were on the phone for waaayy too long. How long? 8 hours!!! Different subjects every several minutes. Guess who did most of the talking?? Not me! Though he wanted to keep going 😂 I wanted to get some sleep, but kindly let him know that's 8 hours was a whole days worth of work hours! We watch it now. 😂😂 but I think we all have a little ADHD & when you John mentioned that the religious ADHD happens to us exmormons, I realized I have those traits & maybe the only ADHD one I have. Thanks! Love your channel!!❤❤❤
As a child, I was ADHD, but of course there was no label at that time. Once puberty hit, I think I became more ADD, although a part of my body has to moving all the time. Meds have helped when I got depressed and it literally helped with the adhd. Mine was from birth, being born blue with the chord around my neck. I do think I had a lack of brain oxygen! I was a rocker when I was a baby! My mom used to say I’d rock my crib across the room. I also talk aloud to myself often. I cried when I read one person share that they believe it’s due to the silence around us. Some say it’s too many things at one time on our brain! Thanks so much for this episode! 59:11 I’m a never Mormon but grew up devout Catholic. All orthodox religions seem so similar once you get out from under their control and you can look back at the negative and some positive effects!
I'm ADHD and can totally confirm all that Dave talks about in regards to this neurodivergence. I struggle to finish books, so I've had a lot of success with audiobooks and podcasts instead of print.
We gave away a bunch of books. Less clutter is good. Of course it was a moment when we just said we're done with that. Nice to have that little piece of closure.
Great interview
Thanks!
Loved that song!
My journey is similar to Bokovoy with some major differences.
The similarity is the long transformation from ardent orthodox member to a progressive one.
It started from 2003 (23 years old) when I realized the Prophets can make horrible decisions based on prejudices, attitudes and paradigms. I based this conclusion based my review of the priesthood ban history.
My recent shift occurred from studying the historical Jesus from a critical perspective.
The biggest anachronisms are claims about Jesus and his succession. His brother James led the movement. Peter never led it.
There is a lot that happened in transformation in addition to the items above.
The major difference is I'm still an active Mormon that doesn’t believe that current Fifteen leaders are Prophets, Seers and Relevators.
I don’t think the gospel is restored.
I am still active because I still have spiritual experiences through the ordinances.
later in this interview they were talking about ADHD stereotype and some of them do apply to myself but I would say I never had a problem to pay attention as long there are/were no distractions but if there were any distractions those become the focus points jumping from focus point to focus point. I feel for his pain going through school and life.
This was a really touching interview and I can't wait to finish watching it. I hope I can come away with some valuable insight for myself ❤
I just watched his previous interview and part 1 ended with him saying he still read the book of mormon and road to zion so it's interesting to start this one with him saying he got rid of all his LDS books.
I doubt he still reads it much…if at all.
I think the work that David does with prisoners is really cool. I don't know where he's at with his religious beliefs--but I hope he doesn't give up on the resurrection. The vast majority of humanity has lived as paupers or peasants or servants or slaves. And these people--indeed, all of us--need a second chance at life.
MSP, Please add a link to parts 1,2 and 3 if this episode. There are so many past David Bokovoy episodes from which to choose. Thanks
Really fascinating guy.\
Seriously good and interesting dude.
Love that education is the answer! In CA- Jr collage is basically free. Top in the nation & world UCs, including UC- LA/ SD & Cal Berkely - offer free education based on financial need thru its 'Univ of CA Blue & Gold Opportunity'. ALL Students- Citizens & elligible Non-citizens (DACA?) in families w/income less than $84,000 are FREE!! It's Amazingly UNFAIR for all those who pay Mega CA taxes & FULL PRICE Tuition. Bottomline- Not seeking an education because of its expense is a Laughable LAZY EXCUSE!
David reminds me a lot of Bill Reel
I fucking hate these mormon ads that show up on these. So triggering.
So I am right ..this man no longer believes in God because he left the Mormon Church....and he is a atheist but he feels a connection with the holy ghost...I am confused
It's called spirituality. "We" know of a power that's out there, just don't know what to call it, but this particular spiritual sense is being erased so quickly from society that people are not knowing what it is anymore, because theyre not being told anymore & "they" know it & trying their best to erase it from humanity & those thinking to call others who go through it, are being called crazy. I'm spiritual as well, not religious anymore.
@@SeekingAlfalfa I love your handle btw. But you are incorrect in your judgement of David. I know him personally and have spent much time in his company. He is one of the kindest, most humble people I've ever known, the furthest from a "trump sized ego".
So does David believe God exists?
Does he believe Joseph Smith was a prophet?
Dude common im adhd, but you are in a cult dont use adhd as an excuse
What is a faith crisis other than an ADHD hyperfixation rabbit hole that one falls down? 😂
New theory unlocked: likelyhood for remaining in the church is directly correlated to being neurotypical. ADHD in particular, but neurodivergence in general seems to be a common thread among people who leave. Anyone need a grad school thesis idea?
Interesting Margi doesn’t wear a wedding band
Nothing interesting. Rings are annoying to both of us. But we’re very committed.
Rings get tight in the summer, fall off in the winter, hard to keep the setting clean…
Why would that be interesting? She isn't wearing glasses or a headband or a lip piercing either.
An atheists Chaplain being good because he doesn’t have an agenda? Sounds so logical yet off.
Chaplain
Jesus speaking on the end times)
"Take heed that you be not decieved: for many will come in my name,saying, I am Christ; and the time draws near: don't believe them."
"But when you shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must happen first; but the end is not yet."
Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: great earthquakes shall be in many places, and famines, and sickness, and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from Heaven."
"But before all these, they will lay their hands on you (believers) and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake."
"And it shall turn to you for a testimony. Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what you will say: For I will give you mouth and wisdom, which all your enemies shall not be able to gainsay or resist."
You'll be betrayed by friends and family, some of you will be put to death."
You will be hated for my name's sake."
But not a hair on your head shall perish."
"In your patience and courage your souls will be saved."
"When you see Jerusalem surrounded with armies, then you'll know the desolation is near."
"Then let them which are in Judea run to the mountains; and let them in the middle of it depart out, and let not them that are in the countries enter into that place."
"These are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled."
"And they shall fall by the edge of the sword,and shall be led away captive into all nations, Jerusalem shall be crushed down of the Gentiles(non jews) until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled."
"And there shall be signs in the sun,and in the moon,and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with complications; the seas and the waves roaring."
"Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken."
"And then shall they see the son of man coming in the cloud with power and great glory."
"And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draws near."
"Behold the fig tree,and all trees; when they shoot forth, you see and know of your own selves that summer in now near at hand."
"So likewise you, when you see these things come to pass, know you the Kingdom of God is near at hand."
Verily I say to you, this generation shall not pass away till all be fulfilled."
Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
And take notice to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with excessive indulgence in your appetites, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day comes upon you unaware."
Watch you therefore, and pray always, that you may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the son of man."
(Luke chapter 21)
Repent! Check yourselves,don't let satan trick you. He comes as the angel of light! He doesn't come as a scary monster, he comes as a friend. Repent! God cares about your soul! satan wants you in the pit with him,don't be fooled..deny yourselves of your fleshly desires,they won't last..suffer now! Remember it's not all about us,it's for a bigger purpose. Live eternity in Heaven with no pain,and with love,and harmony with one another. Something satan has robbed us of down hear, Jesus is the way, the real party is upstairs man!
He who flatters his neighbor with his mouth spreads a net for his feet,beware of flattery!
Proverbs 29:5
Open rebuke is better than secret love,faithful are the wounds of a friend; but kisses of an enemy are deceitful!
Proverbs 27:5-6
Beware of wolves I'm sheep's clothing! Counterfeits wont confess with their mouth Jesus Christ is Lord! And Master,and King! They won't say he walked in the flesh,and was crucified and rose 3 days later and defeated satan,now sits on the righthand side of the Most High God. Born of a virgin,they deny it all..they play on there own philosophy! Preach the word only! Don't give me your 2nd hand crap man
YOU ARE WORTHY O LORD,TO RECEIVE GLORY HONOR AND POWER! FOR YOU HAVE CREATED ALL THINGS,AND FOR YOUR PLEASURE THEY ARE AND WERE CREATED! AMEN
Dont deny Lord Jesus,or he'll deny you! You can still be forgiven! Please choose the Lord
Omg I just started this episode, and I must say that I wondered about whether David had an adhd diagnosis while watching the previous 3 episodes. Some of his mannerisms remind me of myself, especially when sharing a story that I am passionate about. I tend to go into extreme detail and over explain. Some people get annoyed and want me to “get to the point” but I feel that every detail is important! 🩷