Mormon Stories
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- Опубліковано 12 кві 2018
- Mormon Stories Podcast is honored to sit down with Dr. Bart Ehrman for a power-hour discussion of the story of Jesus, the New Testament, and wider early Christianity as a whole. As an expert on the New Testament and the history of Early Christianity, Dr. Ehrman has written or edited thirty books, numerous scholarly articles, and dozens of book reviews. Five of his books have been on the New York Times Bestseller list: Misquoting Jesus; God’s Problem; Jesus Interrupted; Forged; and How Jesus Became God. A comprehensive list of Dr. Ehrman's works may be found here.
I think Dr. Ehrman’s “Misquoting Jesus” and “Forged” book tour talks are an absolute must watch for anyone who has even the most casual question about the Bible. Without being dramatic, his work changed my life, and perhaps even saved my life. It sparked my journey toward an enlightened life.
I'd say that was being dramatic, but that's fine. Dramatic things happen to us.
I like Ehrman's style .He doesn't have the arrogant attitude some atheist debunkers show. He uses humor instead of indignation to present his facts. I think this makes people who doubt their religion to listen to his arguments, instead of going into the defensive right away.
One of the absolute best Mormon Stories yet.
Dr. Bart Ehrman is so great!
Wow, I didn't know Bart Ehrman did Mormon Stories! I read Misquoting Jesus and listened to all his Great Courses lectures during my initial faith crisis.
Finally comin' back to Bart Ehrman. Funnily, the first place I found you was actually Paulogia! Loved you with him.
My favorite episode so far.
John, thanks for this completely professional interview with Dr. Ehrman!
Thank you Bart for coming on to Mormon Stories! I've read 3 of your books, and watched a few of your debates. Well done!
Bart is great! So cool you got him on Mormon Stories. Good job, John. Love this.
Wow
Thanks to those responsible for this video 😀🍷
You're welcome, Michael! Thanks for tuning in.
The Emperor of Rome also was called the "Son of God". Messianic figures in other religions also were called "Sons of God". I think that early Christians felt the need to use this title in order to put Jesus in the same league of significance.
Great interview, John.
Very informative interview for anybody no matter their beliefs
The cannon of the Bible used by protestants is not the cannon that was agreed on by the church. That would be the Catholic cannon. Much later a German man named Martin Luther took the Catholic cannon and whittled it down to what the King James, NIV and any other protestant Bible uses.
He had a funny way of deciding which books to keep. At first he put Revelation, James and several other books on his mental trash heap because he thought that they were useless. I'm not sure why he eventually kept James but Revelation was just because of how it rounded everything out and gave it an ending feeling.
A great video u posted here! I have been a fan/reader of Dr Ehrman for years now. I would say that if anyone is interested in theology and ancient manuscripts/books there is no one so fascinating as Dr Ehrman. I highly recommend his writings including one book not mentioned here titled "God's problem". Anyway u did a great job here keep up the good work!
Mormon stories popped up on my feed and I’m glad it did. Great interviewer. Very informed questions. I can tell you did your homework.
Truly great job of interviewing Dr.E, have listened to many of his various things on youtube, while informative he tends to get a little loud during his debates which for me is somewhat offputing, but necessary for the forum . I feel you got right to the heart of his views expediently which answers many questions I've had,I gleaned more from this hour than probably a hundred hours of listening to various debates on these subjects.
Great guest! The historical Jesus vs the literal son of God, savior of mankind amalgamation.
I wish Dr. Dehlin would have met and podcast Alan Watts
I have read where Paul having grown up in Tarsus would have had exposure to Mithraism which was a religion that included a lot of Roman soldiers, and that this religion had a lot to do with his opening up Jewish Christianity to the gentiles.
Thanks for interviewing Dr. Ehrman! The scholarship he brings to Christian history helps Mormons realize that researching their religion goes much further than just the BOM. It's going to take a long time for ordinary people to realize that the myths they've been led to believe in literally have no basis in fact or history. But this doesn't mean that the stories of the Bible have no legitimate place in the development of ethics and morality. This can also be said of the sacred scriptures of all religions. Sacred stories and terms all have inner meanings which are no less divine than literal understandings. The ancient Egyptians and Greeks all had fabulous stories of their Gods which guided them for thousands of years before Christianity. During the past 50 years we've become increasingly aware of Near-death experiences which are now being scientifically studied and which indicate that we actually don't die when our bodies die, that we continue to exist, to think and interact with others in a heightened state of awareness even though our physical body can be seen as something separate from ourselves. This new knowledge eliminates the need for a physical resurrection in order to live beyond death, and also shows that belief in the physical resurrection of Jesus isn't crucial to a strong religious belief. The Biblical resurrection story can be understood metaphorically that Jesus was still living, or that the Christian community was resurrected after the realization that Jesus was not really dead. Jesus even spoke of "dead" as a spiritual condition..."Let the dead bury the dead". For those who are spiritually shattered at the realization that all the Biblical stories are not literally true, I recommend reading the research concerning NDE's at www.nderf.org/index.htm.
"which indicate that we actually don't die when our bodies die"
Uhh what? What scientific studies are you talking about? are these from reputable organizations, and peer reviewed?
I believe that Mormonism will die a natural death in the 21st century, owing primarily to the proliferation of information about the overt frauds perpetrated by those who started and promoted the cult... and this is mainly due to the availability of stacks of information on the web, significantly here on UA-cam.
Many high-ranking and "ordinary" ex-Mormons are online, explaining what they found out eventually and exactly why they left the LDS church.
Increasingly, Mormon missionaries will find it next to impossible to persuade new people to sign up, and soon the LDS church will be just a historical footnote.
Here are some of the erroneous and dangerous MORMON teachings, which are in deep conflict with Christianity:
"GOD used to be a man on another planet."
(Mormon Doctrine, p. 321, Joseph Smith, Times and Seasons, vol. 5, p. 613-614, Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, p. 345, Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 333).
"The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s . . . ,"
(D&C 130:22).
"God is in the form of a man."
(Joseph Smith, Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p. 3).
"God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens!!! . . . We have imagined that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea and take away the veil, so that you may see."
(Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 345).
"God the Father had a Father."
(Joseph Smith, History of the Church, vol. 6, p. 476, Heber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses, vol. 5, p. 19, Milton Hunter, First Council of the Seventy, Gospel through the Ages, p. 104-105).
"God resides near a star called Kolob."
(Pearl of Great Price, p. 34-35, Mormon Doctrine, p. 428).
"God had sexual relations with Mary to make the body of Jesus."
(Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 4, 1857, p. 218, vol. 8, p. 115). This one is disputed among many Mormons and not always 'officially' taught and believed. Nevertheless, Young, the 2nd prophet of the Mormon church taught it.
"Therefore we know that both the Father and the Son are in form and stature perfect men; each of them possesses a tangible body . . . of flesh and bones."
(Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 38).
"After you become a good Mormon, you have the potential of becoming a god.
"(Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 345-347, 354.)
"Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them."
(D&C 132:20).
"There are many gods."
(Mormon Doctrine, p. 163).
"And they (the Gods) said: Let there be light: and there was light."
(Book of Abraham 4:3).
"There is a mother god."
(Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 443).
"God is married to his goddess wife and has spirit children."
(Mormon Doctrine, p. 516).
~~~
NOTE HOW THE MORMON TEACHING ON THE TRINITY HAS CHANGED OVER THE YEARS:
"The trinity is three separate Gods: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. That these three are separate individuals, physically distinct from each other, is demonstrated by the accepted records of divine dealings with man." (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 35).
This is truly astounding to read, for the original 1830 Book of Mormon (I own a copy) states very clearly belief in the Trinity as taught by traditional "mainstream" Christianity:
"And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen."
(Book of Mormon, in 2 Nephi, at the end of Chapter 13, on page 120 also refer the current LDS website where the same wording is quoted.)
Please view this video:
ua-cam.com/video/qcQthyiTA7c/v-deo.html
AND this from Brigham Young's great-great granddaughter, Sandra Tanner:
ua-cam.com/video/iRfN0MInEl0/v-deo.html
Blessings to all !
The truth, and reality, eventually wins the day. Education, science, logic and reason can not coexist in the human mind with the facts you have listed. Jehovah's Witnesses have tried to solve their similar problem by discouraging education in their youth and not mixing with non-members who have a good mind. That's my impression.
Check out the nderf site. Scientific organizations only deal with investigating the material universe, so the study of NDEs is a very new endeavor.
NDE’s are proven to be only a mental experience
Oops! Where's the links?
Just a quick question regarding something Dr. Ehrmam said.
I thought he said only in John did Jesus claim he was the Son of God, that it was not mentioned in the other Gospels. But when Christ was crucified, the scribes and Pharasies mocked him and said, "He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God." (Matt 27:43).
Did I miss hear him, or am I missing something?
They were accusing him of saying thar...but he is not quoted to have said that. That's the difference. For instance my neighbor can say I called myself the daughter of God when in reality I said something to the effect "I love my God like a daughter loves her father". The rumor mill starts and all of a sudden everyone says I think I'm God.
It was about claiming to be God, not the son of God.
Why did God create Mormons? So Christians would know how Jews feel about them.
I have been reading, rereading, pondering Dr. Bart Herman for over a decade. He writes in such a way as to make biblical history very accessible and interesting to "regular" people, i.e. not biblical scholars. I personally have 7 of his books in my library, and I refer to them often and on each read discover new truths. I recommend Dr. Ehrhman's books for anyone who desires to know how the Bible was actually created and about the history of Biblical times. His works have been a huge eye-opener for me, and I appreciate Dr. Ehrman writing in a way the lay public can grasp Biblical history and the creation of the Gospels. THANK YOU DR. EHRMAN AND THANK YOU JOHN DEHLIN FOR THE THOUGHTFUL QUESTIONS YOU ASKED DR. EHRMAN. John, I am so glad you personally found Dr. Ehrman and that you are introducing him and his writings on Mormon Stories.
Even if we forgive any contradictions, inconsistencies, omissions, there is still a huge elephant in the room, that is, there is no evidence that the content is anything other than musings by wishful authors.
I literally clicked on this video because he looked like Jeff Goldblum in the thumbnail.
What is the difference between "literally clicked" and "clicked"? /
Really? I don't think so *_AT ALL._* Very strange. I do this he does look a little bit like the new (old and thin) Penn Gilette though.
@Dinky Doo: its indeed bad wording, but I'm quite sure that he meant to say that he _only_ clicked for that reason.
Dinky Doo, that is the correct use of the word. I did not "figuratively" click on the video for this reason, as one would with their "spiritual" mouse. I actually clicked on the video only for the reason specified, and selected this word instead of it's many equally accurate counterparts. I was not particularly interested in the title of the video nor did I have any other compelling reason to click on it. It is possible that you are mistaking common misuse of the word, often to exaggerate reality, or even to mean the opposite of "literally", as in "figuratively." Or perhaps you are simply a troll, combing the net for an opportunity to call foul on a perceived abuse of the English language. I am not in the position to say. I can only say that this is the internet, and I am not beholden to any linguistic regulations.
Mshojat yeah, after watching the video the resemblance deteriorates. It was more uncanny at thumbnail size.
Lay Jay,You say, “I am simply stating that there is absolutely no historical evidence that Jesus was a historical figure.
So you disagree with Ehrman and all the historians who have no doubt that Jesus was a historical figure?
Did you even watch the interview?
Pearce’s
I suggest you go back and review the fallacy of authority. It doesn’t say what you think it does. (Hint: would you rather fly with a pilot or your dentist at the controls?) And Ehrman offered evidence. You are just so biased you literally could not hear it.
Leartes,
Sorry about what happened to your name. You/I were the victim of autospell.
Regarding "Appeal to Authority", it is not a fallacy to cite an authority on their area of specialization. If you need an eye surgeon, you should go to the best specialist you can find. If you want to know about the historicity of Jesus, you should go to historians who specialize in that topic. You say Ehrman offers no evidence. In fact he has written an entire book on the subject, filled with arguments and evidence.
www.amazon.com/Did-Jesus-Exist-Historical-Argument/dp/0062206443
I encourage you to expose yourself to the facts rather than bury your head in the sand.
He gives a general overview for the historicity of Jesus because he’s talking about several topics here. It’s not a debate.
laertes104 It wasn’t a debate. He’s just giving an overview. Carrier and Price make a lot of mistakes in their books so it’s no wonder they lead people to the wrong conclusions.
And yes the video is about several topics not just mythicism
50:07 What I always want to say to every mormon belief brag I'm subjected to.
There with you, Tlotus!
I don't think that Christianity could have been as successful as it became without the support and promotion of the Roman Empire. Check out Joseph Atwill's "Ceaser's Messiah".
The Christians got the exclusivity claim from the Jews on which it was built. Yes the other religions were open to what others believed. But this isn't why Christianity grew so fast. It grew because they thought their sins were forgiven and they were going to heaven.
I think it's fascinating that we discount and even discredit those who wrote the Gospels a short time after Christ's death - if he was a real person - because within a few decades they couldn't have known what truly happened and certainly not from first-hand experience. But, two thousand years later we think we're all so much smarter with an absolute knowledge of what happened at that time with even less evidence and absolutely no first-hand experience.
Re the historicity of Jesus Christ: In a recent book, the French philosopher Michel Onfray talks of Jesus as a mere hypothesis, his existence as an idea rather than as a historical figure. When the "Jesus Project" was set up in the US; one of its main questions for discussion was that of whether Jesus existed. Some authors have even argued that Jesus of Nazareth was doubly non-existent, contending that both Jesus and Nazareth are Christian inventions.
It is important to note that the two mainstream historians who have written most AGAINST these hypersceptical arguments are atheists: Maurice Casey (formerly of Nottingham University) and Bart Ehrman (University of North Carolina). They have issued stinging criticisms of the “Jesus-myth” approach, branding it pseudo-scholarship. /
For a critique of Ehrman, check out the debate with Mike Licona mentioned in the interview, or debates with James White. Ehrman often starts from unfounded assumptions (e.g. no one knew who wrote Matthew).
I believe that if Dr. Ehrman had not become a Fundamentalist, he would have remained a moderate Christian believer even after learning about the textual variants and other challenging issues. Fundamentalism (whether Mormon or Protestant) has caused many a believing Christian to become Atheist +/or Agnostic later on.
I believe that spiritual experiences are real, as a way that God reaches out to a human being and proclaims: "I AM". They do not confirm a particular way of believing. When people try to reach out to God, God reaches back. People often get that confused with whatever path they are exploring at the time it happens. I was investigating Mormonism, had a powerful spiritual experience because I was trying to find God, but thought that it meant that Mormonism was true, like the missionaries said. I took a lot of wrong roads in my life because of that mistaken notion. Malcom X described a strong spiritual experience in his autobiography. I read it and felt that his experience was genuine, but did not convert to Islam like Malcolm X did.
Bart seems to argue against the Bible over emotional issue regarding suffering in the world, the answers to his doubts are legitimate and available to anyone wanting to know.
"Four of the twelve apostles" lmfao what are they teaching you Mormons? Holy hell.
This
Is bull. Just stick with the real no sense of JS
evil in humans make the world bad not God
Humans have been on their own since being cast out from the garden of eden. They are to make of their life what they will without interference from God. We all have immortal souls, so suffering here on earth is a small thing compared to immortality. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. It is not hard to realize intelligent design. In fact atheism is much more unbelievable than believing in God.
Even though the vast majority were illiterate, I have a feeling that at least one person in the crowds had to be literate and probably wrote some stuff down either in Aramaic or in Greek (Greek was the lingua franca). The notes are lost, but I keep hoping that something will be found in a cave some day. Also, I remember from studying the Iroquois that many indigenous groups passed on oral traditions from generation to generation with amazing accuracy. The Iroquois had strings of wampum with different color arrangements that conveyed information, and wampum belts with designs and colors that helped them to remember their past. The Onandaga tribe once had whole archives of wampum, but with all the confusion of white men coming and taking land and removing tribes, and many natives dying from white peoples' diseases, the archives are lost.
I believe that the Gospels are accurate, because of illiterate peoples tending to have much stronger memories and keeping memory aids of different kinds.
Did you ever wonder why Jesus didn't bother to write down His teachings, or have someone else write it down for Him? Why did Jesus teach in parables? Parables are stories which are meaningful, but we have to ponder the meaning of the story to make it our own. The exact words of the parables are not important, just the gist of the story. The story of every religion is that it is only effective for a period of time before corruption creeps in and religion is then renewed to suit the conditions of humanity in a new stage of spiritual growth. The religion of ancient Egypt lasted longer than Christianity has before it finally was abandoned. Most Jews no longer practice their original religious customs because they just don't fit today's world.
Would love to hear your evidence that illiterate people tend to have stronger memories.
You 'have a feeling' that at least one person was literate. Feelings are not evidence. You 'keep hoping' that something will be found. Hopes are not evidence.
The Iroquois and Onandaga had wampum. Not evidence to support the Gospels are accurate. You 'believe' they're accurate. Belief is not evidence.
The Gospels have inaccuracies. John and Mark disagree on the time of the crucifixion. That's not illiteracy, or belts with designs, or colors, or white men, or diseases, or wampum. That's an inaccuracy.
In today's world, someone would likely use their phone to record. Many historical figures had someone around who wrote things down. Many scribes developed their own shorthands, but likely only the most important points were written down.
Name an historical figure who had someone around to write things down. Show evidence that many scribes developed their own shorthand. Show evidence that only the most important points were written down.
Bart's atheism reminds me of a petulant child who stops believing in Santa because the child didn't get what it wanted for Christmas. BTW...Santa existed but not in the form the child thought.
Let Dr. Ehrman speak!! STOP wasting time by going on and on yourself!! /
No Bart, "most everyone" does not agree that Jesus existed.
Space Ghost actually he’s right about that. Mythicism isn’t very much a minority view. It’s just a highly vocal minority of atheists who don’t comprehend inference to the best explanation.
Religion is a meme that is used to control and predict the behavior of fellow humans. It is adapted to local customs, geography and cultural trends to survive in the minds of their host. It should raise suspicion that nearly all people who believe in god also believe they are in a beneficial relationship with that being. The mix of unfalsifiability and favored superstitions within religious traditions provides a psychological safe space for minds to retreat into when threatened by difficulties of a sentient existence. Rather than risk the dangers of an open mind and skeptical intellect, faithful choose to sacrifice their cognitive powers at the altar of confirmation bias, group think, and delusional projection. Our evolutionary need to coordinate behavior among groups for survival and strength has enabled this primitive notion of god to persist. The greatest strength of religion is that it is not true and can never be proven false. New discoveries of the material world force re-evaluation of old theories and hypothesis which can be tiring and difficult to keep track of. The non-existence of god helps people set their mental sights on an object so distant they will never reach it, giving the illusion of purpose and direction while they sail into the darkness unaware of the world around them.
Well stated.
Your Orwellian attempt at armchair psychology aside, prove your extraordinary claims
@@bobgambogi4382 A gish-gallop of condescending and unsubstantiated claims is "well said"?
Strange how Dr Ehrman never seems to mention the Aramaic New Testament which many present day Jewish Christians say predate the earliest Greek Gospels. These Christians point out that very few Jews at the time of Christ could understand Greek. The early Jewish followers wrote down eye-witness accounts in their own language, Aramaic, which for political reasons have been ignored by western academics. No New Testament scholar can ignore what is coming to light in the Aramaic accounts.
Also, not all Jesus' followers were illiterate working-class people as seems to be implied in some of this commentary. You have Joseph of Arimathea, a rich and respected man; Joanna, wife of Herod's business manager; Peter, who hired men for his fishing; and various women who supported Jesus out of their own resources. These people weren't naive country yokels.
Dr. Bart Ehrman destroying Christianity since 1990s.
John, could you interview Dr. Michael Brown sometime? Or someone much like him? Get an opinion from the other side, from someone who is just as learned and scholarly. That way, there will be a balance.
The Incomparable Jesus by Grant Palmer would be a good book to study.
Our interview with Grant Palmer where he discusses leaving the Mormon Jesus for the Jesus of the Gospels may be found here: www.mormonstories.org/podcast/final-evening-with-grant-palmer/
Grant Palmer is one of my heroes.
Changing the mormons for another made up story? Religion is made up, not one religion has any evidence other then evidence for its fraudulent existence.
Ehrman can't see the forest because of all the trees in the way. He is a tree expert.
I m a Muslim.....i wana debate u......
Dr. Ehrman is really great at attempting to make skeptics outta folks.His books will do handstands to get people to doubt the Gospels..I have read them all and STILL believe Christ is Lord.Sorry Bart :(
I'm on your side.
You're gonna blink into nothing when you die... Sorry Joseph ;(
joseph faulkner What is your point? You are free to believe ANYTHING. However, the evidence shows that your beliefs have no basis outside of religious myth.
I hope you will have an interview with a Christian scholar who believes in the inerrancy of the Bible. This professor gives a very different story than I have ever heard before.
nancycap Anybody who claims to believe in the inerrancy of the Bible is either ignorant of history, or a con and liar.
The host says "uhh" too much, so I had to stop listening. Learn how to speak.
I just finished reading The Triumph of Christianity. I am currently reading Misquoting Jesus. However, I disagree with Dr. Ehrman on the historicity of Jesus. There just is no proof that Jesus ever existed.
I think that the better word is "evidence", not proof. Dr. Ehrman mentioned the evidence he thought was significant, the statement of Paul that he had met James, the brother of Jesus. There is also the mention of Josephus, a Jewish historian, in about 93 AD of Jesus and the beginning of Christianity. You have to decide for yourself whether this evidence is proof enough that Jesus was a real person.
Harlan Lang Josephus simply mentions that there is a cult that believes in Jesus, a Jew who rose from the dead. That is as if I mentioned that there is a cult that believes in Lord Xenu. Would that be proof that Xenu existed? As for the "James, the brother of Jesus". Many have pointed out that it is, and has been Christian custom from the beginning for cult members to call each other BROTHER AND SISTER. By the way, Paul also claims that Jesus visited him in spirit on the road to Damascus. Dr. Erhman dismisses this claim, yet points to other of Paul's writings as proof that the historical Jesus existed. What makes one claim any truer than the other?
Pliny the Younger's writings provide some evidence. The Archaeologists and Historians of that period accept Jesus as a real, historical figure. There is not a dispute going on.
Sara K What evidence does Pliny the Younger offer to Christ's historicity? Absolutely none. He is writing to the Roman emperor 3/4 of a century after the purported death of Christ. Again, he is describing Christians, their practices and beliefs. He is not testifying that those beliefs are true. I again go back to Scientology and Lord Xenu. If Scientologists were causing problems in a town and I wrote the governor concerning their activities, describing their beliefs and practices. Could that be later taken as evidence that their claims are true?
Sara K Which archaeologists have proven Christ is historical?