A Tale Of Two Books with John Larsen | Ep. 1780
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- Опубліковано 28 чер 2023
- In this episode we will review two books the Church "quietly" edited, making significant changes on the DL. The first is the Double Day version of the Book of Mormon published in 2004. The second is Rex Lee's "What do Mormons Believe? published in 1992.
Episode Show Notes: www.mormonstories.org/podcast...
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Chapters:
00:02:35 Announcements - Donate to John Larsen’s farm
00:09:37 The Church’s stance on honesty
00:14:50 An “Edition” of a book
00:21:35 What do Mormons Believe? By Rex Lee
00:29:20 Story of John Larsen being a BYU parking police
00:33:09 The first edit - keys and power
00:39:40 Second edit - The seventy no longer serve for life
00:44:27 Third edit - family history work
00:49:42 Fourth edit - Church leader’s political positions
00:55:12 If you disagree with the brethren you have not prayed or studied enough.
00:57:56 Fifth edit - Keys of the Priesthood
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This is my intro to John Larsen. Holy cow super impressive, I can see why he is beloved.
I have a bunch of old Mormon books.. Got them from my grandma.. this makes me want to go see what else she has in her collection before they get donated!
when I worked for the church, I will never forget passing by a room in the church office building and seeing a machine hand-writing the prophets signature on a bunch of letters for newly called bishops and stake presidents. Seconds later, a lady came by noticing that I had stopped to look and told me I wasn't supposed to be looking in there and shut the door. 36:24
It's authorized by the holder of the keys. That is all that matters.
Good for you. If you go to the Vatican, they would do the same. Get your nose off of it. It's none of your business.
@@robinnetto6794 it's just process and time management. That room has probably been replaced by a computer that just digitally emails out the calling. I wonder what the process is for choosing the area the of the world a missionary is called to.
@@GonzoZener Almost everything that matters in Mormonism is unsubstantiated. They claim these "keys" exist. Okay, substantiate your crazy claim.
Just to qualify myself, I'm ex-mo and think the Church if full of crap - however, what you're describing is/was actually quite common for large organizations that require a single individual's signature on many somethings - even the US president used an auto-pen machine (I'm not sure whether they still do). How it works is they get a stencil of the person's signature and they hook it up to a machine that follows the stencil exactly.
Really enjoyed this discussion. And btw, I grew up reading a first edition of McConkie's book, and it caused a lot of questions . . . but not the kind anyone in the Church ever wanted to face. I got hauled into the bishop's office regularly for asking things no one wanted to (or even could) answer. So grateful to be exmo since 1995. Thanks for your insight and wisdom, guys :) x
John Larsen is a great guest. Always exciting to listen to intelligent persons with decades of research regarding Mormon activities.
The ISBN number change is very important to what you are doing here: Each book, except re-printings should have a unique international standard book number. Every edition, including e- ooks, paperbacks, revised editions etc. have their own unique number. (It is found on the "verso" of the title page). Vanity/small presses and older publications may not have an isbn. ~Signed, a curious never-Mormon librarian.
Was going to post this. Even minor changes like the color of the paper (white vs cream) or spiral-bound vs perfect-bound paperbacks requires a new ISBN. If you change printers and the new printer can't exactly match the old printer in every detail, you need a new ISBN. But conversely, you'd never change the ISBN if you believe you're printing the exact same book as you always have been.
@@jdarkwind great info guys! I was wondering, could TBoM be digitally downloaded, put through a plagiarism check, and also compared to other digital versions? Asking for a friend.
@@the-salamander4truth That's been done tons of times. It comes up in pretty much any presentation on BoM authorship.
There's not really any reason to believe that Smith was reading a pre-written text word-for-word, so plagiarism wouldn't be the thing to look for. There's no reason to believe that he wasn't speaking extemporaneously, but that doesn't require him to be talking to god--for example, he could easily have been elaborating on short notes that he prepared beforehand and either concealed in his hat, consulted during periodic breaks, or just memorized. Automatic writing is also a possibility raised by Bill Reel and RFM recently that is really compelling.
The interesting analysis is things like writing style and author voice--was the BoM written by many authors or one, was it the same author as Smith's other writings, etc. The tricky thing is that you can tweak the model and parameters to support your desired outcome, and you can also choose whether or not to compensate for stylistic drift over the course of such a long writing (which also requires you to recognize the order in which the sections were written), so scholars affiliated with the church confidently "prove" that it was the work of many authors, while unbiased scholars demonstrate the opposite.
At 6:34. Same thing happening at the local level. There are ward librarians getting rid of "old" books, either pulping them or giving them free to members. The so-called older books are great sources of information about past theology. I have priesthood manuals going back over 100 years. As for used bookstores, I rarely find anything on Mormonism except for the odd research study by a non-member.
I saw and I hear the podcast but my heart can't change from the true church
@@davidjanbaz7728..Wow! I’d like to hear those! I bet a LOT of people would!
@davidjanbaz7728 can I listen to those?😅
@@titabutoauru-qm7ev you mean the lying church. It's fine to stay, but it's tragic to live your life based on lies. Seems like you're at least open to listening to truth. I hope you find it.
Just when you thought it was safe to go back in the library …
Church website content. This is usually how it works. The links disappear for hours or sometimes weeks with no explanation. Then the gospel topic essay or history entry is replaced with a new version. There is no announcement of a revised version or why the old one was removed. Unless you had printed the old versions you would be unaware of any changes.
Yes I should probably print all of them
Trust is a dangerous thing to constantly break...
Listen to John Larsen he usually knows what he’s talking about 🙂 Also like the name
Love both Johns!
A great episode with a clever title. JL's attention to detail is a gift that keeps on giving. Missed Carah.
Having appreciated all the effort that it takes to create these videos, I have listened in reverse to many. Recently, I began to listen from the early broadcast. In doing so I listened to the John’s in 2009, which lead me to MS003 with Hyrum.
Not considering myself anti-Mormon, however wanting to understand the journey that Lori Cox has taken to reach her present tragic ‘code of silence’ regarding the horrific death of Her daughter Tylee A. Ryan. How she remains a TBM in her own mind.
Thank you both, for helping in my understanding of the fundamental teachings and controversial personalities throughout the rise of The ‘one true church’ to modern TBM.
If you play the video backwards at 3:16 Johns head spins like in the exorcist. It happens super fast. I can only see by slowing it down 1000 fps per second. 🤣
Now I am wondering what happened between 2004 and 2007 that might have influenced that change?
I think John L. has also talked about edited conference talks done without any indication.
I think you both are great! A Aron you are helping people get out with your content. I’m sure. You are powerful and I truly admire and love you!
When I was a young mother and wife I belonged to the Double Day Book Club. One of the books I read was about Joseph Smith and I’m thinking it was about Fanny Alger. It seems like it’s name was Fanny??? Anyway… it was a romance novel and has stayed with me over 40 years. I tried to find it to read again and there is not a trace of it! Does this ring familiar to anyone else?
Thank you for your honesty and search for truth, no matter the consequences.
John, I would be really interested to watch a mormon stories with Jean and Kelly who were on mormon discussions inc (in June 2023). I really want to hear their story in a longer form where they can give more details. They had so much happen, including suing the church after serving a senior mission.
The law library is named after Lee, so a subsection of the BYU Law
Oh i just realized this is a premier. Hello and Howdy from Virginia!
I am in Idaho falls Idaho formerly known as Eagle Rock Idaho... I grew up in Shiloh where Jim Spencer formerly known as one of the core 70 . He wrote beyond Mormonism. I can't declare he was perfect nor did I actually read his books but I did receive a baptism from him and a very special baptism I received from his wife who was or is a playwright. She helped me know my part in life as the narrator owl. I had only a small part with very few lines as you can imagine an owl only says who who... That was quite the set of threads.
I live in Utah, formerly known as Deseret.
Idaho Falls was Eagle Rock in 1891. For the completely confused like me. It's been Idaho Falls my whole life.
The More You Know!🌈
Knowing about the BYU subculture of technical puritanism, am I the only one that giggled about John Larsen being grateful for SOAKER HOSES? Forever an eighth-grader, I guess.
Great episode ❤
The reason every brick of deception matters, is it's really hard to believe these people would lie to us so successfully. Our lives were completely entangled with these people.
We were fooled completely. Getting free is a long process of seeing truth and weeding out the lies still remaining within us. This purposeful deception is still earth shattering to me, and I've been out for 13 years. I need these bricks to build my solid foundation in this new reality where my path and my thoughts aren't controlled. A reality where I'm not filled with those lies.
We didn't even call them Native Americans in the 70s and 80s. We had 'Lamanite' wards. Mormons were given the mission to take kids off the reservations and foster them to fulfill the prophecy of bringing the Lamanites back to the truth of who their ancestors were. You can't go into science books and quietly slip in that the earth is flat where it once said 'round.' Without an explanation, we would all cry foul! We need to hear it over and over again, and there's plenty of people who haven't heard it yet. So keep going John and John!
I appreciate you both so much!
First editions at 19:00. This is important for any historian or sociologist who studies religion. First editions are more valuable to collectors as well. Hence the high price for used copies in good condition. The second editions often have changes or corrections made. The ability to compare various editions then is important. I have copies of the Book of Mormon going back more than 100 years. You can see the changes in text and additions of resources like the cross references and Bible Dictionary.
@26:00 John I used to work as a custodian in the law building and believe the law library used to be called the Rex E. Lee Library, but I just googled and it seems it’s no longer called that either… There is a Rex E. Lee Reading Room there now-seems he has been demoted ha
From 'Saturday's Worrier': 'Lie upon lie, defect by defect...'
Since the LDS Church also prints the bible to go with the triple combos, have they altered it also?? I would think they would not hesitate to do so!!
By law they aren't able to bc they use the KJV of the Bible and it's copyrighted. They can add in footnotes and some extra sections in the back of the Bible but they can't alter the main text of it.
"The EFFETE ELITE." 😽😽😽😽😽. Oh, this is gonna be a good one
Rex E. Lee was a Korean missionary just before me.he was going home as I came in to the mission.
It's gotta be that removing a type piece from the type face was easier than adding one without missing everything else up. Maybe the even ground or chiseled off the raised number.
3:40 "...Under a progressive mormon rock.." I spit coffee, laughed. I don't know if this is a band name or an album title, maybe even a genre of music? at 30 minutes in: Thinking about a "prophet" with severe and/or advanced dementia really would've been enough to discount what the church says on its own. I mean ... isn't it?
John Larsen is a genius, he must be Swedish. Or Norwegian!
💙
John we need to talk about the opportunity to remove phosphorus from wastewater for a fertilizer product or to use recycled water for crops which has phosphorus and nitrogen.
Algae, dry it then grind it up.
Hope it can scale
@@JohnLarsen1 it's routinely scaled up in water treatment plants for similar reasons. All that has to be worked out is a harvesting schedule and grinding it to fertilize.
@@JohnLarsen1 oh, you would also have to figure the strain and keep it from being contaminated by other strains
The church is very big on information control. There are so many examples of the church controlling information.
Just purchased the first edition of What do Mormons Believe? but it won't come until this weekend😑🤩
Which first edition @MrGenejudson ? ;)
@@mormonstories gonna find out this weekend
@@mormonstories rats....the 2nd version of the 1st edition🤨🤔😔🙃😂
How does someone send John Larsen a book?
I found out through genealogy research that my mother was baptized into the Mormon Church when she passed. Our family never have been Mormon but I have used the research facilities in Mesa Az. There is a ton of information there.
John, are you any relation ro my mission president in the oregon portland mission from 1984 to1986? If I recall correctly my prez was John A. Larsen.
I don't think so. The Larsen relatives I know about were Sanpete County salt-of-the-earth types.
58:36 when I was an active member I would say “the priesthood blessings are given to everyone, im grateful I don’t have the responsibility to hold the priesthood” 🙄 good lord I’m embarrassed I thought that. now I’m like WTF, yes they are scared of women… undeniably.
It's called "the versa page."
You can go to the temple and do work for temple names not family names! Many people do that! So not all members do just family! Right! You didn’t mention that because……….
My concern is for those for whom there are no records that exist. This would be billions of people.
@@JohnLarsen1 maybe I misunderstood you! I seemed to detect your concern that church members were so concerned with family members that they were ignoring others who therefore would have to wait until the millennium to have their work done! If I understood right what would you have church members do to rectify this!
@@joycegrover1146 I wouldn't have them do anything to rectify the situation. If you believe all this stuff, it is how God intended it to be. If mormonism is true, God wants these people to not be saved.
Yeah, I do believe all this stuff! Just trying to better understand your point of view! You have confused me in these last 2 replies but no problem! Thanks for the reply!
@@JohnLarsen1This is the whole purpose of the Millennium. It is the “rectifying” and absolute finishing of God’s work on the earth. This is where ALL human beings who have ever lived will have their work done. Angels will directly guide this work and revelation will be abundant. The veil will be thin and every soul will be found and accounted for.
This is beyond a monumental task. For now we do the best we can. Look, the Millennium is not far off…. Of course we don’t know when, but it will be here soon enough- and every soul will be found. God will not leave a single soul without the opportunity to be saved.
Thank God for no Cara. I'm still waiting for the Ezra Taft Benson with JL!
Makes me really wonder if rexley if he were alive would be truly disappointed in his son our Senator Mike Lee and some of his actions and the way he votes and his involvement in fake Electric
Doubleday publishing a "secular edition" of the BoM ... hah! ... as if it would stand up under the tools of textual criticism.
I was in Hartman Rector Jr. ‘s ward while he was in the San Diego area (late 70’s). Here was a general authority who said that the Catholic Church was the great whore of the earth…. (plus) several times in his talks. I was a young adult, and this always made me feel uncomfortable.
32:50 In 1976 Spencer Kimball declared to the 12 and the caretaker of the museum in Copenhagen where the Christus is, that he alone held all of the keys. Is there possibly a connection here?
There is no crazy secret changes... just imperfect people editing and clarifying. .. progressive
I’m not suggesting a great conspiracy theory. Just that he said it out loud and the narrative had to agree. Correlation and all. The timing strikes me.
@@grandlarseny60 really doesn't alarm or strike me.... However it's interesting.
Howdy, boys,!!! 🌺🌈🌺
Maybe thats the real reason it was written in gold plates, so it could be easy to edit?
Except there weren't any golden plates. When JS brought the heavy weight wrapped in his cloak home. He had told his neighbor along the way it was white sand from the base of a tree. When his family asked about the weighted mystery. He told them basically he could show them, but then God would instantly kill them. Remember, Church history confirms JS didn't translate from plates but from his seer stone (rock) in his hat. The same trick he used to make money before he came up with the idea of starting a local church.
@@tsnow5445 I think Scotty was being facetious...but great story! If you have a couple of the references I'd like to see them and maybe make a meme someday...Have a great rest of the week!😀
yeah I wasn't seriously asking this question. Pretty sure there were never any gold plates. I do wonder how many times people tried to rob JS after he made the claims tho and how he must have felt afterwards.
@@MrGenejudson Dr. John Dehlin, through his videos provided the references and it's only through him that I vaguely repeated historical information. They're all quite interesting when reading the full story of the sand / neighbor & the family dinner table scramble to avoid instant death. LoL Definitely worth the time to discover the actual history. Thanks for your response & enjoy your weekend.
You can't disagree for Pete's sake You can disagree
That "subtle" change in language re. POWER , PRESIDENCY/PRESIDENT ... should scare the living hell out of us, esp. vis a vis what has been found about the RAINY-DAY hoard & its actual purpose. Or at least raise our mental grasp by another 60 thousand feet!
I have to point out that you're both presupposing that the publishing company doesn't have a policy allowing this behavior for special cases. Could you put it past them?
Re. Hinkley & yellow-cake:. S*****************************Sorry, can't hold! hinkley IS/WAS yellow-cake walking, talking, squawking
Dear.Lars. : Isn't it time we become a little more realistically "CONSPIRATORIAL"???
We have always been at war with EastAsia......
Joseph Smith papers coming soon!
If he is that cool what the devil happened to his sudden Mike wow
Mormon are eerily similar to Democrats/Republicans
Speaking of being honest. Is that a real brick wall behind you? (just kidding)
Your Rex Lee info told me why Mike Lee is so fucked up, he has Daddy competition issues. Mike is a failure compared to his Dad, Rex.
Stroking truth
Accounts for
Gooey consequences
❤
I am not a big fan of Mike Lee.
John Dehlin left the church but he can’t leave it alone.
And you're not leaving him alone about it.
If it is any kind of negative to not leave the church alone after one leaves it, it would be even worse to not leave alone the non-leavers alone.
You want a cracker, Polly?
Feather blown soundout from this podcast the more you shout the more people come in the church
.the devil is very happy carry to minister what in your heart
A little boring and long winded
The Jesus, that you had accepted as Mormons, is not the Jesus of the Bible. Jesus of the Bible is literally God Almighty who became a man to redeem us (Isa. 7:14; 9:6). He created everything including Lucifer (Col. 1:16) and He is not a brother of human spirits nor a brother of Lucifer. He is the only Way, the Truth and the Life. His salvation is a Gift so no one can boast of earning it (Eph. 2:8-9). But one must know Him first as John 17:3 says.
We could also see that there is no second chance (for the dead), since Jesus said in Luke 16:26, when speaking about the rich man and Lazarus, both of whom had died, “that there is a great gulf fixed, so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us….” That means no missionary work on the other side. They cannot pass across that gulf. Hebrews 9:27 says: “…it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgement.” After death comes judgement, not a second chance. Psalms 49:7 says also “…None of them can by any means redeem his brother, or give to God a ransom for him.” Nothing we can do, after someone is dead, will help them.
But the Bible says that we should “…exhort one another daily, while it is called Today…Today if you will hear his voice, HARDEN NOT YOUR HEARTS…” (Hebrews 3:13, 15). Give yourself at least the possibility to see the truth by doing some checking. If the LDS Church is the truth, you should not fear to investigate. The truth will not change. Only lies have to be protected and hidden.
We have presented to you some samples of our studies in the History of the LDS Church, its doctrines and claims. Study them and see if they are true.
Spot on Brett, wonderfully written! I will see this man (you) in Heaven in a soon coming day.
The sad thing is they believe what Lorenso Snow 5th so called prophet said, “as man now is, God once was; As God now is, man may be.” How Condescending to the God who created everything. My God created the Universe, and their god was a man. I like to ask them because of this belief of theirs, I ask them where did that God come from? You see they can only say from another God that came from being a man.
No Jesus, No Peace. Know Jesus Know Peace I wish all Mormons could believe that God had no beginning and He Says His Word shall not pass away. How could that be true if they believe that it took Joseph Smith to make the Bible accurate. But what about the time they said the Bible was corrupted that would mean that God lied because His Word passed away and it took Joseph to make it right.
I am so thankful to my God that he sent His Son to die for me and now I go free. He paid the Price so that I go free. For by Grace are we saved through Faith only, it is not by works.
@@robertrlkatz6890 Actually my God is the God that created your God. And my God can totally kick your God's ass.
You will meet God someday and you will give an account for your actions.
That is your problem no dialog, no ability to reason. No ability to communicate with reason. I know that you do not believe in hell so therefore you have no concern of how you act now while you are alive. If you do not have a change of heart before you die or before the true Lord Jesus comes back to this earth you will meet God at the Great White Trone and the words that you have used here on this UA-cam channel will condemn you.
"The truth gets brighter and brighter until the perfect day." There will be changes in any historical documents and many of these have changed over time. The Bible is a perfect example of a book that has changed many times. In fact, the Bible is itself a collection of books chosen from thousands of books by imperfect men in the fourth century and commissioned by Constantine as he tried to coordinate paganism with Christianity. Many of us still find the Bible a valuable book. These leaders are imperfect men and Our Lord has always used imperfect men to do his work. I guess each one has to decide whether its worth recognizing these imperfect men as worthwhile and to recognize as leaders of a worthwhile spiritual endeavor.
And what is your source for the ideas that doctrines keep get refined to be better? That is the exact opposite of the idea of the restoration that I was taught. It sounds nice, what you are saying, but the Church doesn't teach that or believe it.
Seems obvious. I enjoyed the cornball talks .. like a strange but nice seminary/institute discussion. Way blown up ...
Or the more likely scenario is it's all made up and plagiarized across the board. And as more history, DNA and archeology prove Mormonism is false they move the goal posts.
@@JohnLarsen1 I absolutely believe it and am taught that. The “restoration is ongoing” is the phrase has been used many times recently by President Nelson to help members understand that not everything was restored in absolute perfectness nor entirety at the time of Joseph Smith. Part of the reason that things weren’t entirely restored at one time is because the saints/church wasn’t ready. For example, the law of consecration could not be lived, the true Zion is not yet formed, etc. There are also doctrines that still could be revealed/restored if the church was ready, I believe.
In the Millennium, there really will be a completeness and wholeness of restoration. Even before that time there will be many things properly restored (I.e consecration, the actual Zion, further scripture, etc.). I do believe the restoration is ongoing, and will continue to be so until the Millennium.
@@chrishumphries7489 If this is the way things work, why didn't God just slowly reform the Catholic Church? Why was a new religion needed to restore? What wasn't actually a restoration but a slow reformation? If what you're saying is true, there's no need for the mormon church at all .
Follow the m o n e y! Are you making m o n e y Johnny??
Much better men than you have tried to bring Jesus Christs church down.
The only thing you will accomplish will be your home in the Telestial Kingdom, if you’re lucky.
Why do Christians relish in the suffering of others?