Nope you can know something is true but act like it's not many people live with cheating partners but can't accept it until they see it.. The evidence can be overwhelming but without a confession or you seeing it it's not true in the same way. We couldn't survive as a species if it was true to us all as the first broken heart would be the end even saying suicide is ilegal etc won't help you'd give up what's the point you leave with nothing
@@benedictmclindon8090 Because it logically involves more suffering. It inholves physical suffering and anxiety for the astronauts and emotional suffering for the relatives, which is in essence also just physical suffering since the amygdala is a real thing.
As a Christian, I understand what you’re saying. We do have a tendency at times to act as though what we believe is not true, and we forget that they are indeed going to heaven. BUT just because we know something is good for someone doesn’t mean we always have to be happy about it! It’s okay to mourn, because even though they’ll be in heaven, death itself in not a joyous thing. It’s painful.
Childbirth is far more painful than 99% of most deaths on earth. Nobody mourns the pain of childbirth. The reason they don’t is because they know the upside that is coming from the child that is to be born. It’s momentary pain. Just like death. And the upside to death would theoretically be heaven everlasting. Yet we treat the two very different. I wonder why.
@@borbafattWhere on earth did you come up with the idea that 99%of all deaths are less painful than childbirth? Why would people mourn pain, it's death and separation which is mourned
@@Dante-vf4sd but if you know that you’re going to be reunited with that person in heaven, then there’s nothing to mourn it’s no different than just a short-term separation. So there is no need for religious people to ever truly mourn because they will be reunited. For those of us that do not believe in any kind of afterlife or religion we mourn because to us it truly is permanent.
@@borbafatt Of course there's reason to mourn, even if we know they were born again it's still a potential long term seperation from someone we love, and if we don't know for sure of they were born again we mourn all the more in uncertainty
People are even saddened by temporary separation, like when a child goes to college. The fact that they will see each other again doesn't change the sadness. Humans will act like humans.
It’s disingenuous to suggest religious people generally respond to death like a mother would when she sends her kids off to college. It’s just not true from what I’ve seen.
@@cosmo588They’re both very different situations, and death normally is a painful process. It’s disingenuous to expect Christians to not be sad, when death is an end to your life. Yes there’s a next chapter, but you’ll have to wait to see that person since you have a duty to live on.
@@DagnirRen when the natural reality is probably that there is no afterlife, at least not anything close to how heaven is described. Which is highly likely. Then it makes sense why even Christian people are devastated at the death of loved ones, because at an instinctual, intuitive level, perhaps subconciously, they feel that something has jist been lost which can never be replaced.
I’m atheist and I disagree. The concept is around loss. There are many ways to permanently lose people, and even mourn that loss, and the people not even be dead. You can lose relationships, and contact with people you have meaningful relationships with and the pain be comparable to if that person died. Because in some ways, they might as well be. You aren’t sad they’re dead. You’re sad they aren’t in your life anymore.
Do you not agree that if you found out someone had died that you hadn't talked to in a long time you'd feel a different way about not seeing them? There's people I gave spoken to in a decade I'll probably feel a different sadness about there being no possibility of talking to them again. I hadn't spoken to my grandparents regularly before they died and it still hurt a lot, it didn't feed like "I haven't really spoken to them in six months so it's not as bad their dead".
I’m an atheist and I don’t get why atheists who carry on about how we are nothing more than just chemical reactions and the such. This is the same reaction religious ppl get when they say to atheists "if there is nothing when you die, why do you care about anyone now?" There is something special about life, more than just the sum of our parts. You don’t need to be religious, or even spiritual, to hold life as something special, even if it only of those you are close to.
Well put, its definitely the separation that causes sadness, death just happens to be a type of separation. I have been watching Alone, it is not uncommon for contestants to cry and even 'tap out' (quit) from the competition (of which rewards $500,000 to be the last one standing) because they miss their family. Their kids and spouse are not dead, but they still cry from being separated from them.
If I really knew a person goes to heaven and gets free beer and no beer belly for eternity. I would be happy for them. Especially if I knew 💯. I'll be drinking beer with them for eternity. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't go through the 5 stages of grief. U know the amount of time u'll be separated is less than the blink of an eye compared to eternity. So be happy for them!!!!
I think even if God was real, it's perfectly normal for people to still struggle at least a little bit with faith. Being a Christian doesn't mean you can NEVER feel any doubt. Faith is a practice.
Death is a natural event that is completely expected and inevitable. If that is enough to shake your faith, you never had a solid foundation for it in the first place.
The issue is most theists are dishonest. They have less of an understanding of god than they like to pretend. They think to admit they don't know if god exists, or to admit that there isn't evidence for god, is to deny god, instead they insist on pretending that there is in fact evidence to support their gods existence.
Imagine going to heaven. "Oh, its lovely. Cant wait to see my siblings, my mum, my beautiful children". "Sorry. Not here. But if you look down over that wall, you can see them writhing in agony and torment. For eternity. Now, enjoy heaven".
Bible doesn’t say but you most likely won’t be thinking about those in h3ll. The bible says there will be no mourning or crying in heaven. Obviously people are commenting to this not following up with the conversation, please see other comments.
@@oryxantilope591 Makes sense considering that's what the desert trilogy fans always say is what's stopping god from making a world that sucks a little less
@@joseph3225the Bible also says you go to hell for mixing fabrics or having a shrimp cocktail. So I won't be using anything that stupid to base my life on.
@@oryxantilope591 Okay very good point, reflecting on scripture I would take that back and say you probably would remember them you just wouldn’t worry about where they are because again the Bible says there will be no mourning, crying or pain. Will there be free will? I think since we chose to follow Christ in this fallen world and rejected the ways of the world when in heaven we would have no desire to sin and being in the presence of God would comfort us.
@@GodlessCommie the new testament authors claim that Jesus quoted that Psalm and that many of the things which happened to Jesus, as recorded in the gospels, are mentioned in the psalm, like his garments being gambled over and him being mocked Christians do go back and read Jesus into the Old Testament, but that doesn't mean he said those words for no reason. The authors had a story to tell and they told it using previous scripture to back it up. This is what I'm saying Many people seem ignorant of this and try to use this to claim that Jesus never said he was God or that the gospels deny his divinity
Yes because its only obvious if you don’t believe in the Afterlife. Why would you mourn someone you are eventually gonna meet again and who you truly believe is in a better place?
Yes because from a religious perspective you are not losing them forever, its just a temporary goodbye, until you are with them for the rest of time. So it shoudlnt be a big deal, but it is. Not difficult to understand, no?
@@sw1nkz50i would be devastated if i could never speak to my best friend ever again. I think about in the same way as if she was dead. I mean my best friend did die. So i do know how that felt and we went through a period of not speaking and i feel as tho i was nearly equally upset with both cases.
@@sw1nkz50no this is very different. If my friend died to a gun shot and another friend went on a cruise which one you think ima miss more? The question he is asking isn’t making any sense. He doesn’t understand anything and just tryna confuse you
@@jonathanmartin7081 If you mean what Lopez is saying, then yeah I know. The knowledge that someone is alive even if you'll never see them again is not comparable to someone dying
He's not saying you won't miss them. He's saying it's different. Try to follow along. I would definitely miss my kid if he went on a voyage where we couldn't speak for several years. But I wouldn't feel the same if he was murdered. The entire point is that people view death as different. Which makes no sense if you think your loved one is waiting for you in the afterlife.
@@knightartorias1825 Agreed. Also, if you believe you'll spend eternity in heaven, then being apart from your friend or loved one if they die.. on the grand scale would be the equivalent of somebody going brb to the kitchen for a glass of water.
@arthur_7144It's not really a threat as much as a reminder. And to a religious person a reminder that one day they'll go to heaven. Sounds crazy but it's of comforting to some people that have lost a loved one or are dying themselves. The people that don't feel this way probably don't believe in heaven as much as they say.
@@knightartorias1825the fact is that materialism (evolution) wont permit you to have your own perception of death. if we are from millions of generations, why wont our perception of death be ingrained to our genes? It is because we are unique beyond our atoms, something evolution cannot explain.
@@adriandelacruz-lz7vk Because the animals who had no self preservation have died. So the only ones left are the ones who understand that dying is bad. Lol.
Sorry Alex but the fact that religious people (although i think ALL people have this intuition) don't think that the loved one just vanished out of existence with physical death, that does not mean that the feeling of separation and loneliness isn't strong enough to make you sad. After all psychology plays a role in our mode of being while we are incarnated. Also something else. Newsflash. SUPER rarely we cry and are sad for the passing of our loved one. We are sad because WE miss him/her, it's a rather selfish reaction although a totally understandable one.
I think people in the comments are missing the point. You will never see this loved one again in either situation. In one situation they are on Mars, the other they are in Heaven. Which is better, Heaven or Mars? Obviously Heaven. And if a person truly believes in Heaven, then they should rejoice at the fact their loved one is experiencing the most amazing thing that is possible to experience.
Grief is instinctive. Death is inherently painful. It’s difficult to articulate logically. Whatever answer Christians give, the pain will still be there. We can’t wish it away simply knowing we’ll see our loved ones again.
@@larrytruelove8659 Still why you be sad? If someone I love is far away but having a great time I obviously wouldn't be sad...Especially if I know they're coming back.
@@thebrushman4123 Because the emotions governing death simply don’t operate logically. One cannot completely overcome that kind of grief. Let’s say, a family gets separated through a job situation or an offspring going off to school. The separation itself creates grief, even if the religious beliefs teach there will be a reunion at some later date. Even in the Bible, grief from death is a given. But the Apostle instructed that the grief not be regarded as final, no matter how long the separation was to be.
I’ve met plenty of Christians who aren’t afraid of death. I’ve been to funerals that are upbeat celebrations. I’ve spoken to a lot of elderly Christians who are looking forward to death.
It would make sense to say that an atheist doesn’t act like an atheist if you were just saying that of one person. But if you find yourself often saying that of people, that indicates you need to reassess your assumptions on how atheists act.
Orrrrrrr, it means that we are organisms with pattern-seeking brains, capable of seeing existing patterns that are true for a group, even if they are not true for every single individual member of that group.
There is a saying that goes something like this " when a baby is born we laughed and smiled but the baby cried , when a person dies we cry but they smile "
You missed the point my man. He said, that a permanent cease of communication doesn't make you feel the same as them *dying,* therefore, that is not the entre reason for the feelings you get, as hte states aree identical from your perspective.
@@billyjoelbeans And you both missed the reason why religious people are sad when people die. There is no guarantee that communication can't resume again at some point in this life-even with an absurd hypothetical like _going to Mars_ (for f*cks sake) which never fking happens lol. Dying is the only finality in this life. There is 0% chance you will talk them in this life again. That's not the case with loss of communication. There is still a chance you will see them again-especially if they are still on _planet earth._
@@billyjoelbeans it is because death is not a good thing. No religious person thinks death is a good thing even if God uses it for good. Think of it in this way; imagine someone cutting out your auntie's voice box just to cure her cancer, and then replace that voice box after 14 years. You wouldn't be happy about someone cutting out her voice box because it's not a good thing even if it will work out for good.
@@bwalyakangwa1973 Fair and all, but the stated point in this video is: if the person goes to a *better* place, then what justification do you have to be sad or mourning? Its a good thing, immediately realized. I would have to disagree. There are martyrs and the like. There are 100% religious people who see death and their subsequent "afterlife" as beneficial/good. Also, seems just a touch circular. Death makes us feel bad because death is bad ≠ death is actually bad. It seems to not justify that claim. And the counter claim, is given the ending, death is actually a good thing. That intuitive sense that death is bad could be interpreted to be a disservice god gives us, or, there is a secular/evolutionary reason, and in the depths of your being, perhaps you can't consider the religion fully true. Or such goes the argument personally I think there are way better arguments but it is interesting even if just for the parent dilemma of ceased communication being the same as death from an individual perspective.
@@billyjoelbeansthat's cuz there's a chance that you might see your friend again with lose of communication so there's expectations but when you die, it's over you are not gonna see them in this life again It's not Same as this atheist mentioned
As a Christian I would compare this to a mother crying when her teenage son heads off to University for the first time in a far away city. She would cry because she will miss him, not because she thinks he is heading off to hell. I cry when somebody dies because I will miss them, it is more of a selfish act than anything.
Nah. Most people don't cry when their child goes to college. Maybe a few minutes but parents are just as likely to feel joy. People become despondent when people die. A death can fuck people up for months or years. Not minutes.
It’s not selfish to miss someone. There are religious people who have cursed out their Gods, screamed up at the sky and asked why. It’s a pain you can’t describe. I personally think that’s because no matter how set in your beliefs, theist or atheist, you still have no clue what happens after you die. People cling to their belief in God in those moments because it’s too scary to think of the other possibilities.
@@cosmo588 missing somebody is by definition a selfish feeling, it doesn’t mean that it is wrong. You might scream to the sky “why god” because you know and trust that God has a greater plan for them but you are just unable to understand that greater plan. We don’t know what heaven is like, we just know that it is very different to what we know here. How can you possibly say that even the strongest of religious believers doesn’t believe in their heart of hearts that there is a heaven? That is simply not true.
You didn't even watch the damn video. So many Christians are running to here, not watching the video, and asserting the same argument he points out is flawed. If you're so confident in your religion, why are you so incapable of watching a minute and a half of someone questioning it? And actually sit there and think about it for a second? This level of defensiveness SHOWS how religion is just so ingrained in a person's ego. You can't, for two whole minutes, just pay attention to what someone who doesn't agree with you is saying. You think a kid going off to college would feel the same to a Christian person as their kid getting murdered?
The funny thing is that as an atheist, I've become an absurdist and now think that death is not an objectively bad thing. I mean, I'd be sad, but does it really matter? If my life doesn't matter, why should dying or living be a problem for me? That's why I'm a true religious person by your definition 😅.
Death is sad for many people. Regardless of afterlife existing, it's still natural to have such feelings of loss, even if one has a cognitive/spiritual outlook on it.
@@michaelm8529 losing someone who you love will always have an impact on someone, we're not robots! the 2 things aren't mutually exclusive, you can mourn someone and at the same time be happy that they're going to a better place
@@stuartgrayis and yet as I say, we miss people who move away but we don't mourn them. It's completely different. Death is unique. We don't act like it's a gateway to paradise and we don't act like it's similar to someone moving to another country
If someone I really cared about went on a spaceship not to return for 30 or 40 years, I would be grief-stricken. It would be almost as sad as if they had died. Imagine all those years of shared experiences we'd miss out on. Yes, it's not the same as death, since in old age, we will meet up and catch up on what had happened in the intervening period, but what a loss it would be for us. Our relationship as we know it would come to an end.
Some people may not feel too sure about going to heaven. It's a mystery to us all and it doesn't make you any less of a believer if you're not sure you'll end up in the same place as your loved one.
You're actually missing a crucial point that Alex pointed out. They did not just went on some spaceship, they were actually now in the greatest place we can imagine, Heaven. And with the greatest possible being, God.
@justaway6901 OK, but that doesn't change the fact that I'd be sad about not seeing them again until I was old. I don't think we're sad at funerals because we think our loved ones are suffering. We're sad because we won't get to enjoy their company again during our lifetimes.
And you are not able to imagine this place and there is a big hole that has to be filled when someone dies, of course it is sad. But one of the main reasons people get happy again is because they know their loved one is in heaven and the hole has been filled.
@@gandalainsley6467 cool. I guess you missed the sensible part. Theists can't even agree on the basics like Who goes to heaven? and Why does a child have to live in misery before going to heaven? It's been discussed for hundreds of years and the only thing that has happened is that one denomination has become thousands.
A little pushback: if the ship blows up, you are grieving not only the separation, but the fact that your friend didn't get to accomplish something they worked very hard on, their physical experience (blowing up sounds painful), and that their earthly experience was cut short. While people can believe heaven is the most wonderful place, because they are human, they still feel and think about the good (and bad) experiences of earth. And it can br saddening to know someone won't be able to experience those things (just like many parents of severely disabled children are saddened).
Exactly. This question is weird and strangely passive aggressive. Why is he surprised that we are human? Jesus mother wept. Mary Magdalen Wept. Even Jesus wept. Tears give a release. Get rid of cortisol. It's so bizzare to me
If you believe that they are now in heaven where everything is just pure bliss, then why would you be angry that their earthly presence is cut short if life here is essentially just misery in comparison. It's like saying they weren't able to finish their football match because someone called them saying they won a billion euros. And you're gonna be sad because they couldn't finish their football match?
@@jarzez I think it's a little bit different in that we don't have a clear concept of Heaven. We only understand the now. Similarly how we can't really conceive of the number of stars in the universe; it's such a big number it almost seems meaningless. I also think that we would be sad seeing our friend not get to play in the football game, especially if it was the ultimate championship they had been working towards for years/decades. We would understand that they have it better now (billion euros), but we'd be a little sad.
@emilewilliams5361 I can't believe we'd still be sad that they'd missed the match they'd trained for. More importantly, they wouldn't care either, because they'd just won the lottery! Isn't eternal life often thought of as the ultimate lottery, and therefore nothing could possibly compare? If you 'won' eternal life legitimately, nothing else would matter, and others could only be envious of you. In truth everyone is afraid of losing what they have here, because they fear that's all there is, and they've known this instinctively, from childhood, despite the placatory platitudes quickly offered up by their parents.
But the Bible teaches that heaven is the ultimate goal, and to reach there vastly overshadows any and all experiences here on earth. The only people who truly embrace that view wholly are the people who do 9/11 like activities, and possibly monks.
I feel like it boils down to human empathy.When u realise he has died u are more troubled by the pain he might have endured and how brutal the whole experience must have been according to his perspective in addition to you losing contact with that person for the rest of your life.
As a Christian myself I don’t find this question too difficult. It’s similar to if your best friend since you were a kid tells you they’re moving to another country for example. You have grown up with this friend and love them and now they will be too far away to see all the time. Of course you will be sad about it. Now just apply this thinking to the thought of a loved one dying.
@@massivecowbreakout7555where did they say that would be the same thing…? There are many reasons beyond one’s own feelings of loss that someone would be upset if someone died…that person’s life has been cut short (that’s a sadness that people feel when they hear about a child dying in the news), what if the deceased had young children or dependents, that’s something that would sadden people. This really isn’t hard to understand, though I think it must be for a lot in these comments because it’s not something you know from books, it’s something you know from interacting with other people.
It's similar but not identical. Alex is arguing here that in some sense, if the afterlife is just viewed to be a permanent departure to a "different place," then the grieving of the death of loved ones for Christians seem disproportionate. Of course we all would be sad if a friend of ours is moving permanently away. We also would be very sad if a friend of us died. But in the case of Christians, the grieving of the death of their loved ones seem to be much greater than the extent of what their belief implies(i.e. there is the afterlife, and the death of the loved one is simply your loved one moving to a "different place")
If I was saying goodbye to my loved one for 80 years because they were going on holiday to an island paradise where I could have zero contact with them, my reaction would be similar to grief with the belief they’d also go to heaven. It is almost like how at the end of the Lord of the Rings they grieve Frodo even though he merely goes to another location where they will not see him again (this even includes Sam who eventually does go to join Frodo, analogously to religious people eventually going to heaven). Furthermore, sometimes your reaction to something is worse than what you know to be the corresponding reality. For example, I can know full-well that I have no ammo in a gun when I shoot it, but if I aim it at my face and hear a loud bang, my initial reaction will be shock and fear before my relief kicks in. It is similar with religious people and death - you can have a shock where your body doesn’t fully comprehend the reality but then the comfort of heaven kicks in.
Yeah that’s fair. I think there is a point to be made that death should be a little less feared by religious people for obvious reasons. But, then again, the analogy made here isn’t bulletproof by any means. I feel like people would still be sad about not seeing their loved ones even if they’re still alive.
@@michaelm8529 if you are willing to grant that at least some people in the world, or who have ever lived, have truly believed deeply that Jesus died to give eternal life (e.g., people in medieval Europe, including those who believed they had visions of Jesus in religious experiences etc), they will still have grieved their loved ones. People are infamously bad at predicting how they will react under hypothetical conditions - better to go off how people who truly believe in eternal life actually react rather than how you think you’d act were you to have a radical shift in beliefs.
I think I remember reading something about how the vast majority of people are not able to understand an argument like this that involves a hypothetical.
I’m a Catholic and I agree with him. This is true. It’s because of a lack of what’s called a living Faith in what happens after death. So many people believe, but in a weak manner. My grandmother died in October, but she was very devout and I had good reason to believe she had been saved. I could not make myself sad for her. In fact, I was the pretty much only one at the funeral who wasn’t crying and indeed felt I couldn’t be. I really felt that I had all the reason in the world to be happy for her and to marvel at what God had done for her and be happy that she now knows the full truth, won’t suffer from her old age, and can be with the Saints for eternity. What a blessed lot! I just regret I couldn’t do more for her before she passed away.
Exactly. I’ve always wondered why they are upset about death. Why they care at all about this life, how much money they have etc. it’s all inconsequential to an eternity in paradise.
Mourning is justified biblically because we view death as a result of sin. However we have hope and promise of eternity. Also true Christians should not fear death and should view money and materialism as inconsequential except for it to bring glory to God. In other words be extremely charitable and spread light to the world.
@@brendanmassie9586first, what sin was involved in say, the hypothetical scientist whose spaceship blew up? Second, if that’s your definition of true Christians I’m not sure there are very many of those
@@KevSB07 we believe that the world inherited sin after the fall and that is the root of all imperfection and death. Sin is not just referred to as an individual breaking rules and committing wrong. The Bible says that the way is narrow and few will enter the kingdom of heaven so you’re correct. Many people who claim to be Christian only do so for cultural reasons and have no actual understanding of biblical teaching.
Many reasons for this other than what you said. Death isnt just sad because you dont get to talk to that person anymore. The connotations of pain and suffering, the tradgedy of them being gone from this world, no longer able to contribute to life in any way. The fact that death only exists because we have failed and fallen to sin. The finality if death on earth hits people much much harder than the idea of never talking to someone again. This isnt because of a lack of belief in heaven, but because of the objective reality that they are no longer on earth with any earthly relationships or affects, and they probably suffered immensely for at least a little bit before being gone. The bible actively encourges little regard for material wealth and encourages you to only use it for the gooe of others. As for ehy we care about this life, there are also several answers but from a purely pragmatic standpoint we care because it is a small window where we get to help others come to christ. If every christian killed themselves, the world would be doomed to sin.
I’ve never cried over a death or been worried about it, so this is interesting to me, people may just call me unfeeling, but I do my best to help people who I care about and I also try to be nice to everyone, as well as seeing things from their point of view. I think it has to do with people’s personal loss, I would have a hard time crying over anyone I’ve connected with though. So I think what leads me to not crying is my belief of death being a part of life, I enjoy studying paleontology and so have lots of experiences with dead things, and understand that that’s just how the world works, to be alive is to die. The true unfeeling people are the people who ask questions about why people cry, they don’t cry for the person, they cry for themselves and for their knowledge that they won’t see that person for a very long time, and as soon as you understand that, you understand why they cry.
To be honest, I don't really relate to being hung up on dead loved ones. I cry, I grieve, it comes back every now and again. But it doesn't prey on my mind. Maybe it's because I have more faith than most that I'll see them again. I thought somehow I might just be built different. But by contrast, I have an unsaved (non-Christian) friend who cut me out of their life 10 years ago and I still can't help thinking about them multiple times a week.
“Why do we mourn?” Because we’re human. We have emotions and connections. Jesus Himself wept when Lazarus died even though He knew He was able (and did) bring Him back to life. We mourn because death is something to be mourned. It is an upsetting thing to see anyone die. The particular question and answer provided makes it seem like it’s illogical to be sad that your friend is leaving town for the next few years because you’ll see them again soon. Mourning is a human emotion, but heaven provides hope of a reunion. However, hope does not nullify mourning completely. Mourning is an emotion, not something logical, and it completely normal. Christians (and other religious people) are allowed to have emotions, we aren’t all soulless monsters (yes, I understand that many Christians have done wrong, but I am not ever going to condone their actions).
That certainly is a factor. Everything intelligent wants to know their friends are alright. Crows, Dolphins, Elephants mourn because of the same reason.
@@withlessAsbestos I don't think the only two options are meat robots without emotion or emotionally volatile creatures that can't tell paradise from eternal torment
Because we had a relationship with that person within our human experience, and that relationship is gone. It’s a loss that cannot be repaired so long as those alive are still here. Grief and sorrow are real human emotions no matter what happens in the next life.
I’m not religious, but I would assume that the feeling of hope is the difference. Like, if you see someone die, everything they were ends in that moment, they can only live on in memory. But in the example, knowing that they could still be alive gives the other person hope. If someone loses communication permanently it’s a Schrödinger’s cat situation. I notice that’s what keeps people going in the long term but in the short term, I think deep down people feel the finality of death and society is so focused on the hole that person left. Most people are just destroyed by the sudden change in their life. Having someone important ripped away and never to be seen alive ever again is really hard to go through. I imagine many people choose to believe in an afterlife because they simply cannot fathom living in a world without the person they love.
@@vaishanthjv2519 Anything after death is speculation though, the person on earth is gone forever and as far as anyone has ever seen there is no way for anyone on earth to connect with someone who’s died or we’d have concrete proof of the afterlife. All I’m saying is it’s final for the rest of their lives, you’ll never see that person again as long as you live and for most people that’s what’s hard to deal with. If seeing someone again in heaven is what keeps people going then that’s a good thing, but as far as I’m concerned the science does not support anything after death and the finality of life is definitely a scary thing to see religious or not.
@@testacals I’m not? I mean not that I care what label my beliefs have but I don’t believe in an afterlife and never have but I can’t deny for certain if one exists although I personally can’t imagine how that would work. But all I’m trying to do in the previous comments is rationalize how or why someone who believes in an afterlife would feel sad about someone dying and I think that there are clearly reasons to be upset about losing someone and that lots of people choose to believe in an afterlife because they can’t deal with that sort of finality and still be happy
People are upset because they can't really know whether their loved ones will be in heaven or not. We don't truly know the relationship between God and another person so a loss is still upsetting. The hope is that one day they will be seen again.
people are upset because they value life. They know that life exists because we live through it right before our eyes. There is no evidence that heaven exists. If there were, we'd be way happier about death. Honesty will set you free and give you life.
@@AJ-iu6nw they are upset because they value life? What about people who commit suicide? Do they value life? People are upset because they won't be seeing their loved ones anymore; Going on journeys through life with them, memories with them, experiences that only those people can experience together, having conversation with them, breaking bread with them. This all disappears when someone dies. Life is vanity if you think there is no heaven, all your thoughts, memories, friendships will disappear once you go so why are you here in the first place? Legacy is pointless because those that succeed you can squander what you've worked so hard for. Do you even know your great great grandparents? They mean nothing to you, and most likely most people. We're only here for a short time...
@@cosmo588 no, the contrary. How is the thought of life being meaningless without God shallow? Clearly I've thought existentially about life enough to conclude that life is vanity without God. Where's the accountability without God for one's life? If the serial killer lives a life of slaughtering people and never gets charged and dies, what does it matter if he's a serial killer or not? Where does standard of living if we just live and die with no afterlife or hope in something more than what we have now? If society dictates morality, then what we do doesn't actually have any form of consequence, because we're here one day and gone the next. What do you gain by trying to convince me that there is no God?
@@godless1014 If there is no life after death then we wont have to worry about it because we will cease to be. If there is life after death, it's a bonus. That said, getting old, suffering ill-health and dying can be quite a long drawn out and unpleasant business. Nobody wants a death via cancer (like my Mum) or colitis and operations and a year as an invalid in a care home (like my Dad). Once your dead though, you dont have to worry about hospitals, pain, illness etc.
@sakibmir5360, there are all kinds of reasons a person holds onto this life even if they believe Jesus. For one, nowhere in scripture does it tell us to exit stage left once we get saved. It would be rather selfish to have that outlook anyway because we are called to spread the gospel. Furthermore, if you’re young or middle aged and are married or have kids you aren’t gonna wanna leave them behind. Plus, one is gonna wanna make sure their children are bought up to know the same path.
Being a Christian the last Christian funeral i went to was for a friend of mine called John. We called it Johns leaving party and it was very cheerful and we were all sad we wouldn’t see him for a while, but we didnt experience the same suffering that someone who believes in no life after death would feel.
Christians say they have the good news, me as a Deist have the better news: + there is a god/gods (behind the big bang, but that’s all he ever interfered in this world, maybe he only watched it happen) + he never shows up (he doesnt want to be worshipped), + he never interferes in this world (no strange miracles) + he didnt give us rules and moralities (we have to figure out on our own) + he doesn’t judge us + Life in that sense is an experience, not a test + after life we ALL go where we came from before we came in this world
Thats called an unjust immoral God right there! Regardless my entire experience denies that claim since ive experienced Gods miracles in my own life and you can too if you came to him in humility and trust😊😊@@user-hr8dx9qw4n
@@user-hr8dx9qw4n Yet you have no moral standard by which to judge by and you live in a suffering world in which the only logically deistic explanation for life is nihilism. If you’re a deist, it’s better to off yourself (in my opinion). Come to God brother ✝️❤️
Alex can do MUCH better than this for attacking religion. There’s two simple answers. They are mourning that they won’t be able to see/speak with them again until death or they are hypocrites. Your choice. L take for atheism and from Alex. ✝️
You clearly dont fuckin understand what death means then, life doesent start again, it stops.... Thus death..... Just cuz you LIE to yourselves does not make it better, also i like the little dig at the end there, but its better than condemning your own family to hell cuz they dont believe in what you do...... Atheists will often say let by gones be by gones, but a religious cultist will often damn people to hell for not believing their version of lies...... Whats that tell you?
We are sad that we will never see them again until we die. It's like how you feel sad after spending your weekends with a loved one, and when they leave or ypu separate you feel kinda sad but amplified a thousand fold.
When your friend makes it into Caltech, but you haven’t gotten your application back yet and don’t know if you’ll see them again for a while, you still miss them. Life is unpredictable, you might never see them again.
People do get heartbroken and extremely upset when they have to say goodbye even when they’re still alive Alex 😂😂😂😂if they believe there’s something after death and they’ll meet again one day, the pain of losing them in this life is hardly going to make them feel much better even if they think they’ll see each other one day. You’re usually on point but this one was an extremely weak and lazy argument I’m afraid.
@@michaelm8529 yah because when people move, you can actually potentially see them any time you want. but if they die..? God knows how long before you meet again.
@@michaelm8529I’m not religious in the slightest but I agree with you. Christians believe that we are imperfect beings with irrational emotions, which we are. For them to be completely at peace with death and welcome it would mean they think that life on Earth doesn’t matter (since, in their belief, death is not the end but the beginning of an eternal paradise). But they believe that what you do on Earth is important and that life is precious, so of course death is still hard to deal with. Especially because, like I said, we are imperfect beings with natural emotional responses to things. And personally, I don’t think my reaction to knowing I will never see someone again and their death would be that much different. I think Alex’s example is also a little ignorant considering that the person’s death would be for nothing, rather than them participating in an important development in the future of humankind, so of course their death would be disappointing.
About your example, my friend being on Mars and not having a way of communicating with me would make me very sad, I would take it similarly to an accident that puts him in a coma that the doctors say he won't wake up from. However, there is always a chance, in both of these scenarios, that my friend could come back into my life or obtain a method of communicating with me, and that's why I wouldn't be as heartbroken compared to if he had died. Imagine a family of a girl who has gone missing, and it's been a very long time and they haven't heard anything about her. After say a year or two, they hear that she was found dead. They will then grief more than they were grieving before, but less than they would had she never gone missing and suddenly died. That's because for the duration of the time she was missing, they had hope of seeing her again, but they lost that when they heard that she was dead. The same grief is always there because they don't see or hear from her, although the brutality of the situation might increase the pain. Either it's a slow burn or a sudden burst of emotions, but either way, they would grieve. And I would also like to add that serious religious individuals who have dedicated a large part of their lives to their religious beliefs don't usually feel the same pain after the death of a loved one compared to non-religious individuals of the same emotional capacity and/or temperament.
@iamdog3540 I definitely would feel a lot of grief. However, as Christians, we have a faith that when a person believes in Jesus and His death and resurrection and repents of their sins, they receive salvation and eternal life. If I know that my friend is not saved, but is still alive and has time to believe and repent and be saved, I will have hope for their good and that might help ease the grief. Additionally, I will pray for them to be saved and for their good, which I wouldn't if they were dead.
Just get rid of all the unknown variables. You know you will never see your friend in the rocket ship again. You know the friend in both scenarios will go to heaven when they die. Is it the same
@iamdog3540 I believe so, at least in theory. Of course, I cannot know if it would be the case in practice. But I do think that the grief will come in different ways, while still the same amount. Knowing that your friend is dead, the grief will hit all at once, whereas hearing that I will never be able to contact them on earth again will be gradual. It is very similar to them being lost and presumed dead. 1 thing that I mentioned is that I will pray for them because the prayers can still affect the living but not the dead. The second is I will still have hope of seeing or hearing from them again. You cannot remove these variables completely, because that will be the way I, and I presume many other Christians, react to the situation. Not having confirmation that the friend is dead, gives hope and reason to pray, which have to be accounted for.
@@michaelloophole the point of the removed variables to test the consistency of your own personal beliefs. If you believe (a) is true because of (b), if you were to remove (b), (a) should no longer be true. That’s the point of a hypothetical, the answer should be relatively simple. I’m aware that this scenario is extremely unlikely but that doesn’t matter as its meant to test the extremes of what you truly believe in. Also it’s technically possible that Jesus finally comes back down to earth and performs miracles and raises your friend from the dead. Same thing can apply.
That...that makes a bit of sense actually. When I moved to a new town and didn't talk to my friend for a couple of years. It was just, sure I miss them, but I'll talk to them later, it's not a big deal. It wasn't anywhere near the earthshattering, I'll never see them again, cry for months, wanting to off myself because life has no meaning, they should be alive again, when someone dies. If i knew I would see them again in a few years, yeah I wouldn't be as sad, I would slightly miss them, and I definitely wouldn't want to rip them from paradise to suffer on earth, that would be so cruel.
We still mourn because death is something we understand to be inherently bad, like "hey, that isn't supposed to happen". It's a deep unavoidable feeling, that we experience regardless of the comfort we have in knowing the deceased has gone to be with God.
What’s your point exactly? Would I be more upset if my friend died and I was separated from them, yeah, because the only experience I have to this point is temporal, bodily experience, therefore I am more attuned to what it’s like to be temporarily separated from someone I love, that I will then interact with again in a way I know and have experienced. The separation of death, while I as a Christian, acknowledge the hope that they are hopefully in Heaven and I will see them again, they are separated from me in a way I haven’t experienced before vis a vis that relationship. Maybe a decent analogy for this would be if I was separated from my kids for a couple hours because they’re at the park, I’d miss them less than if I was separated from them for an indeterminate amount of time because they moved halfway across the world I didn’t know when I would see them again. I know what the former is like, the latter is more unknown.
That has no logic at all. Not seeing the children for a few hours vs. a long time is not even slightly comparable. The example with the trip to Mars is much better. Of course, you have to assume that there will be no reunion. So: Kids launch to Mars, will be well taken care of on the trip, but you'll never see them again. Of course you are devastated, but emotionally it is much better than if the children were to simply explode. The reason "because being in heaven is such an unfamiliar form of separation" makes no sense at all. Flying to Mars is also unfamiliar. Why would you think it's better for the children to be in a rocket with a bunch of fallible people than in the perfect place with the perfect people? It makes no sense.
@@germanyoutubedeutschland9899 “no logic at all” ok. First, I’m not implying it’s “better” that they’re still alive on my view, just that it’s more comfortable knowing that they’re still alive, ergo there remains the *possibility for bodily reunification, whereas death marks an separate which we haven’t experienced before, akin to being removed from my kids in a way I have not experienced before. It’s the known (or, if you like *more known) vs. unknown experience. One could say the same of their own death. I don’t know what it’s like to not be alive, therefore I can reasonably have some rational fear of death, while still acknowledging that my belief in heaven says I’ll be in a better place. It’s easier to handle *more known experiences than unknown ones. Yes, the going in a rocket is unknown, sure. But they’re still alive, which is more known than if they die, something I haven’t experienced vis a vis that person. Like, I’d be more sad if my wife died than if my wife left me (while I’d be incredibly sad in both cases). I’ve experienced neither, but in one case she’s alive and in the other case she’s not (another aspect of the separation which I haven’t experienced).
@@mac3441If the rocket launched to Mars with little chance of a successful voyage or return and no communication with earth, would the unknown fate of the loved one be worse or better? Exploding on launch is a definitive end but tragic. Someone leaving without an idea if they made it or is suffering or if you'll ever see them again just seems like an awful limbo to be left in. It's why I personally don't understand why the possibility of an afterlife is more hopeful and comforting.
@@mac3441 It's just a lot to hope that a paradise exists and the loved one in question is accepted to that paradise. I have hope that I have a good death but that's as far as that extends to concerning the afterlife.
Im Christian and this is completely right! crying in church is about the loss and could be considered 'selfish' but i always kept this thought to myself, even when I drifted away from God!! good stuff
@@Daiwie44Why tho? He’s going to a place of bliss and happiness, better than the Earth he was forsaken on. If anything, the emotion a person would get out of that is relief, not sorrow.
@@brendanmassie9586 well I may be wrong... but if our faith in Christ is solid, the grief should be brief and the rejoice apparent. but the focus on the grief reveals the strength in faith. God bless
I think it's supposed to discredit corrupt religious people, especially conservative politicians, who claim to be "perfect". If anything, the claim is "we're all human", which is true... I think..?
It's meant to highlight that religious people might not be as sure of their belief in the afterlife as they claim or want to acknowledge themselves. If you truly had no doubt that your loved ones are in heaven and that you'll meet them again after you die, then what difference is there if that rocket exploded or not? In either case, there will be a long time of separation (in the case the rocket doesn't explode, one could imagine that your loved one has to stay on Mars for an extended period of time, and, because of communication failure, this means a long period of separation). Hence, if you mourn after a loved one's passing because there will be some time of separation, then why would you mourn more if the rocket exploded? This is an example of a push back against some religious people's claim that nonreligious people are more religious than they claim or want to acknowledge, for instance the claim that they actually do "know" that God really exists.
@frede1905 Are you trying to imply watching a loved one get murdered is the same thing as watching someone say goodbye for the last time? How exactly does having human emotion conflict with belief in heaven? This is probably the dumbest analogy and you trying to rationalise it just made it look even dumber... 😂
@@ysycotik You missed the point. You didn't see them being murdered. You only learned that the rocket exploded, and that they instantly died with no pain. In general, just consider any reason why they might have died right after launch, so that it didn't hurt for them. Upon hearing this, it would most definitely feel a lot worse than if they simply to Mars so that you wouldn't be able to communicate with them. The question being asked is why do you feel a difference between the two scenarios. In the former case, they're even in a much better place. That you do instantly feel an enormous difference emotionally between the two scenarios might indicate that the belief in the afterlife is not as ingrained in you as you might think, ie. there is some doubt. That's not a problem for people who acknowledge they're not 100 % committed to their belief in the afterlife, but to those who do claim they have no doubt. That's the point of the question being asked in the video anyway (as far as I understand it)
The key difference here is that religious people know that we often don't treat things as religiously as we should. It's very common to falter in our faith. This is why it is considered an admirable and great act to show faith in the face of great adversity. Such faith is remarkably _uncommon._
So you admit you don't believe any of it, you just hope it's real. You hope a god exists that tortures people he doesn't like for eternity. So you're evil. Lol
@@knightartorias1825lol how about crying after watching sad movies? It's not like actual people are dying is it? atheists are clowns and atheism is the whole circus
@@Mr_Mashhead Say you and your friend who are both 25 is shifting to another country. You won't see him for a very long time. Lets say 55 years. Compare how sad this would feel against how sad it would feel if he died.
But I acatually like religious hypocrites more - because that usually means that they are not completely insane and know when to not follow the impossible standard - when you are hypocrite, at least you are not a fundamentalist.
Objective morality is only found in religion. Superiority complex atheists like Alex clutch straws in every debate and use arguments interchangeably because they have no solid footing in their moral compass
It's disappointing when missions fail and when people die we miss them. It doesn't matter if you will see them again or not. In my mind the expectation of seeing them again should have the same resultant as the expectation of never existing again.
Incredibly simple to answer. Death and explosions usually contain some level of unexpected events. By the way, you can't equivocate the average death of a person and death in an explosion also. Shuttle explosions and plane explosions are some of the most traumatizing events, and usually no one who has a loved one in those ever recovers. Contrast both of these with the trip to mars. If it does go as planned - this does keep the human mind in the frame of reference that all is going as planned, and comforted, content. Literally no part goes unexpected, so of course no one would bat an eye. In the case of any death some unexpected is involved unless it's like assisted suicide or pulling the plug. Otherwise there is always some level of uncertainty and chaos involved. Religious and atheistic beliefs help shape our understanding of death surrounding someone's passing, which prevents the event from becoming completely debilitating, and helps keep individuals frame of reference and sanity. But no matter what cushion this creates, it doesn't help with sudden death, sickness, illness, unsettled matters, family gatherings, inheritance, and just the pure objective fact some people might not have been prepared for it to happen when it did. The mars example would have none of these problems, so duh, Alex. It's incredible how Alex simultaneously equivocates like 3 completely wildly different things all at the expense of making some stupid point about atheism and religion. It's an amazing champion you guys have elected. Like the narcissistic college kid who never stops talking, and no one wants to argue with because he just won't shut up or ever settle, but everyone knows he's a moron. I seriously feel bad for atheists if this is their modern champion.
i get your point: - death is SAD because it's unexpectedly loosing someone -a trip to mars is NOT SAD because you are expecting to loose someone -if the ship blows up you were not expecting that and are obviously more sad -but you were still expecting to loose communication with them forever -so something else made us more sad. you could argue it was just the unexpected way it happened or you could argue its because deep down we fear death more than just "missing someone till heaven"
@@benedictmclindon8090I’ve never heard anyone argue the “missing until heaven” point. Regardless, losing someone close is like losing a piece of yourself. Humans are social creatures who depend on one another, so most of their feelings stem from attachment to them. Even if you were the most stoic religious person in the world, your eyes would at least well up or shed a tear because they’re now gone. The rational takes a break while the emotional comes in temporarily.
@@benedictmclindon8090 i think any honest religious person fears death undeniably. Its more human than religion to fear death i wager. I think the undeniable truth is that both religion and atheism inhabit the interface between consciousness and the unknown. Both systems serve to simplify reality into a box that is convenient to parse upon the individual deaths and life of people. The question is really what does your belief make you do, and change your behavior for better or worse? I think most religious people struggle with death on average the same way any person of any system. The point is here that the surprise death scenarion that is Alex's hypothetical example is a poor example because in one cae everything literally goes according to plan while the other does not.
@@sparshjohri1109 in my experience its actually quite opposite. Alex O'Conner is a type of emporer with no clothes. He regularly engages in insincere surface level cursory glances at religious topics barely understanding religious beliefs, scapegoating very easy common targets like fundamentalism or scriptural literalists, or creationists which make up a tiny minority of the religious. He regularly makes blatant false statements or uses obfuscation by making overly complicated language, and in this case and many others he regularly uses equivocation. There are a couple reasons he is popular, one is that his fans are actually that dumb and can't think for themselves and he sounds eloquent while seeming to bolster their positions. The other is that there are many normal intelligent people who are either not in an ecosystem that they have encountered his ideas and would easily see 1 million reasons why his arguments suck who are just regular college students or professors, but they choose not to speak out because its simply not wise and takes a particular kind of narcisstic personality to do what he does. The fact he is a proponent of determinism is utterly moronic, and most likely a gimmick just to get more clicks than anything. This question why don't religious people love death is actually a perfect example of the kind of insincere snarky moronic BS he has always done. Now is no different from him 5 uears ago. This guy wants to he the next Dawkins and doesn't even have a single bachelor's degree. No wonder he's the atheist agnostic champion of the zoomer generation lmao.
I'm religious and I'm not afraid of death, I don't think that death is really the end if not the beginning of something much more grand. I believe this life is a test and shows good and bad , yet the push towards grace snd relief from evil provides Peace.
Agreed, although I think almost anyone will cry at their own death or at least at the death of a loved one. We’re designed in such a way where that’s how strong and confusing emotions.
@@michaelm8529 Well, even assuming that we could be certain that they went to paradise. We have to come to terms that they’ve gone well before us. Combined with the natural mourning response, grieving the fact that someone has gone away for an unknowably long time, especially unexpectedly, is entirely reasonable. Especially sense we do need a leap of faith to believe they are in paradise, and the grieving process is no time for trying to defend Kierkegaardian philosophy, regardless of if you support it in an un distressed state.
Ironically, this would make a great message in church. You’re correct, there is no reason to mourn deeply aside from not being able to see them again on earth.
Many reasons for this other than what he said. Death isnt just sad because you dont get to talk to that person anymore. The connotations of pain and suffering, the tradgedy of them being gone from this world, no longer able to contribute to life in any way. The fact that death only happens because of our failure and sin. The finality if death on earth hits people much much harder than the idea of never talking to someone again. This isnt because of a lack of belief in heaven, but because of the objective reality that they are no longer on earth with any earthly relationships or affects, and they probably suffered immensely for at least a little bit before being gone.
@@CrankyPants05 the reasons you gave for death being sad other than not being able to talk to the deceased: Pain and suffering - wouldn't happen if he died painlessly The tragedy of them gone from this world - why would it be a tragedy if they are literally going to a much better place with no downsides? No longer able to contribute to life - why is that sad if they are going to a better place and if God can contribute much more than the deceased?
@@filipe.sm31 it is tragic because the world changes every time someone dies, their contributions to the world and to their loved ones ceases. that is a sad thing. whether you were ever going to talk to them or not is irrelevant to that fact. and the fact that God can contribute more than them doesn't change the tragedy of them being Gone from this world, that argument doesn't make any sense.
If you've been to a funeral for a person who's family is very religious, you'll see a very strong mix of mourning and rejoicing. The Bible says "we do not grieve without hope." There is quite literally no hope in an atheist funeral. Only memories and loss.
1) I think both you and Jordan are right. Because almost always, if there are two very big sides of an issue, both sides have enough truth on them to pull a massive following. 2) It's easy for me to think that, our grief is largely instinct. Chemical. Emotional. We did not evolve to go on massive long space flights. But we evolved at a time when, it was beneficial to herd and organisms that, if they ever saw their own kind being killed, to have a reaction so negative, they'd try to avoid that and survive as long as possible themselves.
I grew up in a church of mostly older people - 20+ people in our church died by the time I was 25. Most of them showed little to no fear of dying, almost all of them knew they were dying and had months of that awareness before they died. People get sad when a friend that was visiting leaves. They get sad when their friends move away. If you don't understand why people are sad when their loved ones are separated from them, it's willful ignorance.
It is willful ignorance. It’s like saying “why are you sad that your sister was raped, she was given a billion dollars afterwards.” No matter what the payment is afterwards, it doesn’t change the tragedy of death or rape. Our own God cried when Lazarus died, even He is saddened by death moments before resurrecting him.
He wasn't saying "you wouldn't be mourning them if they went to Mars", he was specifically comparing that situation to them going to Mars, but dying instead. If you would be more mournful for them dying than them going to Mars, then it's not actually the "never contacting them again" part that your mournful about.
@@RasmusVJSI don’t think it has very much to do with missing them, although that is part of it. Death is still death, and it is tragic in and of itself, regardless of where the person goes afterwards. For those who believe in an afterlife, you can be mournful that a death has occurred while still being hopeful for their future.
@@audrakoch431if you believe that death in this life is only the beginning, and that you’ll live in eternal paradise, and that you’ll see all the people you loved again one day, death is not tragic. So no, death isn’t just death, it’s just a stepping stone, in your eyes. The alternative is that death is finale, you love and lose until you yourself pass and your conscious experience ends there. That’s death, the other is rebirth. If I knew my mum was going to go start a new life in peace, and one day I’ll join her, I’d be overjoyed. But that’s not what I personally believe, so grief is the closest thing there is to experiencing death before I actually die.
Because as Christians there's a recognition this separation was not meant to be. And it was caused by our sin. So Alex is right here it's not just we miss them but that we recognize why they are seperated.
St Theresa's most famously poem: I live without living in me, and I expect a life so high, that I die because I do not die. I live already beside myself since I am dying of love; because I live in Him, who wanted me for Himself: when I gave my heart to Him He placed this sign in it, that I die because I do not die.
@@AlexReynard ofcourse, im not even christian... the goal of life is to get into heaven, right? children below the age of reason gets into heaven automatically. So by unaliving your children, you get them into heaven...
@@Botjer1 I am not God to judge someone. I am not entitled to conclude someone goes to heaven or hell. I don't even know them/their thoughts/, I am around 30 years old, living as per science in a world that is spinning for more than 4.6 billion years. I am a work in progress. Jesus Christ says "Judge not and you will not be judged". It makes sense. He also says "Many are called and few are chosen".How will I know who gets in? It is God's responsibility to judge and he will judge the world. But one thing I know is his standard of judgement is far above human standards. His ways are higher than our ways and his thoughts are higher than our thoughts.
As a follower of Christ, I get saddened when my loved ones die because none of them are believers. Yet I am not utterly hopeless because I belong to the minority of Christians who understand that the end of all ends will be in perfect order where all creatures get right with God. In our church for example, when an older member of our church dies, we do not get sad, we all understand she/he went to their eternal home.
From a Jewish perspective, the reason we’re upset when someone dies is the same reason we’re here in the first place. To do God’s commandments in order to make this world a dwelling place for God. When one dies, they are no longer able to help this cause and can’t support others to do it either.
I’ve had this thought for quite some time. He is exactly correct. Religious people are definitely less religious than they think they are and this is a perfect example of how they show it
this whole argument is dumb, Alex says religious people are sad when people die because deep down they know there is nothing after death. By his own logic I can say we all have morals because deep down we all know we'll be held accountable in the end.
@@macdonald2k of course you're more sad when you see someone die. The Mars example is weak because you don't know if they're alive or dead where as if they saw the ship explode they know their loved one is dead and the Mars example completely relies on the hopes, beliefs, and FAITH of the person back on earth. Death is a universal human experience but it can only be understood on an individual level.
We're not emotionless, so of course we'll be sad their gone now, but rejoice later as we'll be with them in heaven because of what Jesus did for us on the cross.
This is a good point. I mean obviously as a religious person you will always have slight doubt so that might be part of it. But it could also be social conditioning to make us think death is a sad occasion. I’m sure after 100 years we could condition are self’s not to be sad over death or even celebrate it.
Bruh, this is a very shallow argument. The reason for sadness can be longing, losing your support, etc. At the time of parting, I'd wager that no religious person thinks what if heaven doesn't exist and we never meet again. It's more due to the loss of a strong bond than anything else. On the other hand, the cognitive dissonance of an atheist is not due to any other factors but his beliefs. No atheist lives his life as though reality doesn't exist. No matter how much an atheist rationalizes, it's all just talk. He won't live based on his philosophy but will still tell others it's the best philosophy there is.
As a muslim I am excited to meet my lord and if a friend or family member dies i would still feel sad at the separation but i promise you not as sad as an atheist. Our pain isn’t the same. To you thats it, they don’t exist, to me i may even feel relief that their lord chose to call them back to him at that specific time.
As a Deist I can tell you that we all will be fine after death. YOu as theistic Muslim think humans have to follow man-made rules claimed to be the word of god written in a holy book, in your case the Quran. If not they get punished according to your man-made belief. The main harm and danger caused by the man-made Bible and the man-made Quran is, that even though they contain man-made wisdom, they also contain man-made errors that are claimed to be the word of their god. By that, they expect the reality to adjust to those errors and not vice versa. Thats very harmful, especially as those man-made and “godly claimed” errors include topics like e.g. astronomy, evolution, biology and homosexuality.
@@user-hr8dx9qw4n funny when you talk about errors and claim "It's man made" without even giving it a chance to prove itself , There was one time I was studying quantum model of atom and I came across the probability distribution and it ticked me off cause it seemed absurd to me have 1 thing can be at multiple places at once, at the end when exams came around I finally said lets just try to give it a chance and I was completely blown away how orbitals work, similarly if you are claiming "it's not by God" then I don't know man I think you are educated illetrate. Also what is the harm in reading Qur'an I assure you that you'll become more of what you are now.
@@matirjeux5481 Who tells you that I didnt read the Quran? The Quran is a man made book with man made wisdom and man made errors: - Geocentricism is wrong - Moon split in two is wrong - The sky/heaven as a ceiling is wrong - First humans created from clay is wrong - Adam and Eve never existed - homosexuality is not a seduction by a satan, but a natural born healthy sexual orientation with an evolutionary sense - Semen originating between the backbone and ribs is wrong - Embryos bones formed before flesh is wrong - Flat earth is wrong - Etc etc. This are just a few of the many examples of scientific errors in the Quran. The Quran contains exactly the scientific knowledge of the scientists of the time it was written in. If it would be the word of an all-knowing god, it would be, even back then, without any mistakes. But it isn’t.
I love this ideology. Myself and friends have the conversation regarding terminal diagnosis. You know you're dying. You are ageing. Can't be stopped. However, even with that knowledge, you don't really contemplate it. Someone who is diagnosed with a terminal illness - like cancer - is suddenly very aware of their mortality. The really interesting part is how family and friends become hyper aware of this person's mortality too. That hyper awareness (I believe) is the primordial fear of death. Organised religion and religious belief (they are very different things) is the knee jerk to the idea of death. Trying to "soften the blow" if you will.
Knowing they're in a good place doesn't take away the grief of having lost them on this earth. It's not that difficult to understand, Alex. Ou miss the person, and you grieve, and then faith reminds you that it's okay.
The point is that you shouldn’t feel differently about the person going away for a long time vs the person dying. You should feel the same way in either case, if you actually believe that you’ll see the person again either way.
@@zacklyons1284 well first of all you are greatly underestimating how many people mourn the loss of their loved ones when they travel far away. When my mother and I left the country, my grandmother was grieving as if she's burying us. You overgeneralize and then make conclusion based on false assumptions. Second of all, "I have hope I'll see you again in this life" is a powerful feeling that makes a big difference. And lastly, no matter how you try or don't try, your fate after this life is in the hands of God, and you don't know for sure what he has planned for you, so you don't know if you will meet again for sure. But most importantly, we do grieve. We grieve when we lose a person for long and for good. Because it pains us to be separated from them. Before you base your conclusions on different assumptions, please revise the assumptions first
@@ang5798 Almost everyone who believes in an afterlife treats death differently than a person leaving home. There are exceptions, but the point is that there should be no exceptions, if they actually do believe in an afterlife in which they will get to see the person again. So in this example, the person believes in an afterlife, believes that they will get to see that person again, and also doesn’t treat the two scenarios the same way. Go to a funeral, then go to a going-away party. There’s a huge difference in the response to the two situations. It’s not overgeneralizing or making false assumptions. It’s taking people at their word when they tell you what they believe, and then observing that most people treat the two scenarios completely differently. It’s 100% observation, not assumption.
@@zacklyons1284 you might have your point but that doesn't mean it's right. Just because you think so, doesn't make it so. And you can repeat all you want to me, I don't have to agree with your choices and opinions. If you think you're so smart for this, go enjoy yourself I guess
@@ang5798 Here are things that are not debatable: -Most people who believe that they will see their loved ones in the afterlife grieve more for death than they do for their loved ones leaving for a long period of time. This is demonstrated by the difference between religious funerals and going-away parties. One is sadder than the other, almost universally. -If they will eventually see their loved ones again, as they claim to believe, then the only difference between the two scenarios is that their loved one is happier until they see each other again, which actually makes death the happier option. -The fact that people are sadder about the death of a loved one than about the loved one leaving temporarily cannot be reconciled with the beliefs that they claim to have, since death should actually be the happier option. If someone believes that a loved one is better off in heaven and that they’ll get to see the loved one again, they should be less sad when the loved one dies than when the loved one leaves. Most of the time, this is not the case. It leads you to ask why their feelings are not consistent with the beliefs they have. I’m not even saying anyone is incorrect about anything, it’s just weird that the inconsistency exists if they actually believe what they say they do.
Some are sad because they are scared of leaving this world behind, including loved ones filled with grief and having to deal with a massive life change. Others because of the suffering that death entails. But many Christians, myself included, are not afraid of death, only hoping God will bring it about at the right time. Literally no fear. This is the good news.
@@thechristologists8479 but ideally, you and your kids would go see God right now. Is there some reason you don't arrange for this? It seems like you don't really want you or your kids to be with him all that badly. Also, you say "god gave me children," but I would bet a pretty penny there was a penis involved.
Ah, you've stumbled on a great Christian truth! That we are far weaker and feebler in faith than we imagine ourselves to be. This only throws us back on the need we have for God. I put forward to you the Pauline correspondence with the Thessalonians, who were struggling with this exact thing, and were comforted by the words of a friend and mentor: "But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers and sisters, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as indeed the rest of mankind do, who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose from the dead, so also God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep through Jesus." And one day he will wipe away every tear, and now he is faithful to comfort us in our strife and groaning, even if it ultimately stems from our shortsightedness and faithlessness.
hahahahaha, I don't blame you for feeling that way. What I would say is that none of us are well acquainted enough with ourselves that we know all our shortcomings. Least of all me, so I don't shy away from the idea that I am in many ways coping with my own inadequacy (as we all do). What I will say is that it is in the Christian faith that our inadequacy is covered for and overwhelmed by the grace of God and the sacrifice and resurrection of his son. What that means is we can, as much as humanly possible, grapple with our inadequacy with peace and joy. If you tell me my faith is weak or I am inadequate, I have no reason to deny you. It is the fact that God cares for and uses inadequate creatures such as us which makes this faith so wonderful and attractive@@SirLied
@@elijahnegron337 You misunderstand me entirely. I don't think you are inadequate for realizing that you will die one day and that you fear this. That's not something that you ever chose. The cope is that the fear and existential dread death brings you will be remedied by a god described by middle eastern goat herders 2000 years ago. You seem like a nice person and it pains me that the guilt you feel towards your own inadequacies burdens you so much that you feel the need for divine intervention to absolve you. You aren't flawed or inadequate because of a man and a women in a garden eating fruit long ago, you are flawed and inadequate because you are a human being with a unique life circumstance. The only forgiveness you need for that is from the people closest to you that you might have hurt as you continue to grow and learn as a person throughout the rest of your life.
I can tell you from experience that it feels just the same... having a friend die, and having a friend that you'll never be able to talk with again even though they're still alive. In a way it feels worse because they're still alive; yet you can never contact them again. It's frustrating.
No it doesn’t. I have a best friend of mine who we have no contact with anymore and we will with almost 100% certainty never speak or see eachother ever again (on bad terms and we have become drastically different people since then). It hurts me till this day that I have no contact with him but I know without a doubt it would absolutely crush me more if I found out today he passed away.
Grief transcends faith. My grandmother was the most religious woman you’ll ever meet and I am as well, but I miss her terribly and I cry for her often. The fact she’s happy now doesn’t mean I am.
Hello Alex, trusting God that you would see this and to every one in the comment section. The consciousness that our beloved have gone to a better place does not invalidate the sadness when they die should in case death comes prematurely because believers strongly believe God didn’t just put us here on earth just so we can come back but rather to establish His will. This concept is what summaries the purpose of a believer, so when a loved one dies before fulfilling purpose it hurts or death just comes as a major interruption, it hurts. That’s why the message of Apostle Paul in the Bible about resurrection closes with the fact that we should encourage ourselves with these word.
"That's an interesting question Alex, and it will take two weeks to answer it."
Exactly how JP would answer it 😂😂
💀
Nope you can know something is true but act like it's not many people live with cheating partners but can't accept it until they see it..
The evidence can be overwhelming but without a confession or you seeing it it's not true in the same way.
We couldn't survive as a species if it was true to us all as the first broken heart would be the end even saying suicide is ilegal etc won't help you'd give up what's the point you leave with nothing
😂
Is this a Kent Hovind joke?
Friend: *GETS ATOMIZED IN FRONT OF YOU*
Alex: why are you sad? Won’t you see them again?
He doesn't believe in heaven
Emotional answer. Logicaly think about why death is more sad than a mars trip?
The logic is not relevant to someone's emotional reaction though, you can't logic away a feeling.@@benedictmclindon8090
@@benedictmclindon8090 Because it logically involves more suffering. It inholves physical suffering and anxiety for the astronauts and emotional suffering for the relatives, which is in essence also just physical suffering since the amygdala is a real thing.
@@user-bs4qu7tb2gEmotional Answer.
I was at a funeral of a born again Christian. There was no grief among his family - they were delighted because they believed he had gone to Jesus.
They are dangerous people
@@Nomorealcoholplease true because they are armed with the truth
@@NomorealcoholpleaseHow so?
@@Cgoodalldeath cult
@@AGenericAccount very insightful
As a Christian, I understand what you’re saying. We do have a tendency at times to act as though what we believe is not true, and we forget that they are indeed going to heaven.
BUT just because we know something is good for someone doesn’t mean we always have to be happy about it! It’s okay to mourn, because even though they’ll be in heaven, death itself in not a joyous thing. It’s painful.
Childbirth is far more painful than 99% of most deaths on earth. Nobody mourns the pain of childbirth. The reason they don’t is because they know the upside that is coming from the child that is to be born. It’s momentary pain. Just like death. And the upside to death would theoretically be heaven everlasting. Yet we treat the two very different. I wonder why.
IF your loved one made it into heaven.
@@borbafattWhere on earth did you come up with the idea that 99%of all deaths are less painful than childbirth? Why would people mourn pain, it's death and separation which is mourned
@@Dante-vf4sd but if you know that you’re going to be reunited with that person in heaven, then there’s nothing to mourn it’s no different than just a short-term separation. So there is no need for religious people to ever truly mourn because they will be reunited. For those of us that do not believe in any kind of afterlife or religion we mourn because to us it truly is permanent.
@@borbafatt Of course there's reason to mourn, even if we know they were born again it's still a potential long term seperation from someone we love, and if we don't know for sure of they were born again we mourn all the more in uncertainty
People are even saddened by temporary separation, like when a child goes to college. The fact that they will see each other again doesn't change the sadness. Humans will act like humans.
It’s disingenuous to suggest religious people generally respond to death like a mother would when she sends her kids off to college. It’s just not true from what I’ve seen.
@@cosmo588it’s not the same but it’s similar
@@cosmo588They’re both very different situations, and death normally is a painful process.
It’s disingenuous to expect Christians to not be sad, when death is an end to your life.
Yes there’s a next chapter, but you’ll have to wait to see that person since you have a duty to live on.
@@DagnirRen And it's a behavior that contradicts christian beliefs.
@@DagnirRen when the natural reality is probably that there is no afterlife, at least not anything close to how heaven is described. Which is highly likely. Then it makes sense why even Christian people are devastated at the death of loved ones, because at an instinctual, intuitive level, perhaps subconciously, they feel that something has jist been lost which can never be replaced.
I’m atheist and I disagree. The concept is around loss. There are many ways to permanently lose people, and even mourn that loss, and the people not even be dead. You can lose relationships, and contact with people you have meaningful relationships with and the pain be comparable to if that person died. Because in some ways, they might as well be. You aren’t sad they’re dead. You’re sad they aren’t in your life anymore.
Do you not agree that if you found out someone had died that you hadn't talked to in a long time you'd feel a different way about not seeing them? There's people I gave spoken to in a decade I'll probably feel a different sadness about there being no possibility of talking to them again.
I hadn't spoken to my grandparents regularly before they died and it still hurt a lot, it didn't feed like "I haven't really spoken to them in six months so it's not as bad their dead".
I’m an atheist and I don’t get why atheists who carry on about how we are nothing more than just chemical reactions and the such. This is the same reaction religious ppl get when they say to atheists "if there is nothing when you die, why do you care about anyone now?"
There is something special about life, more than just the sum of our parts. You don’t need to be religious, or even spiritual, to hold life as something special, even if it only of those you are close to.
Well put, its definitely the separation that causes sadness, death just happens to be a type of separation. I have been watching Alone, it is not uncommon for contestants to cry and even 'tap out' (quit) from the competition (of which rewards $500,000 to be the last one standing) because they miss their family. Their kids and spouse are not dead, but they still cry from being separated from them.
If I really knew a person goes to heaven and gets free beer and no beer belly for eternity. I would be happy for them. Especially if I knew 💯. I'll be drinking beer with them for eternity. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't go through the 5 stages of grief. U know the amount of time u'll be separated is less than the blink of an eye compared to eternity. So be happy for them!!!!
Thats what the rocket was all about retard
I think even if God was real, it's perfectly normal for people to still struggle at least a little bit with faith. Being a Christian doesn't mean you can NEVER feel any doubt. Faith is a practice.
Death is a natural event that is completely expected and inevitable. If that is enough to shake your faith, you never had a solid foundation for it in the first place.
The issue is most theists are dishonest. They have less of an understanding of god than they like to pretend. They think to admit they don't know if god exists, or to admit that there isn't evidence for god, is to deny god, instead they insist on pretending that there is in fact evidence to support their gods existence.
The difference is that seeing someone die right in front of you is shocking before you even think.
It don’t even have to be in front of your eye. People cry even if they die on the moon
Imagine going to heaven.
"Oh, its lovely. Cant wait to see my siblings, my mum, my beautiful children".
"Sorry. Not here. But if you look down over that wall, you can see them writhing in agony and torment. For eternity. Now, enjoy heaven".
Bible doesn’t say but you most likely won’t be thinking about those in h3ll. The bible says there will be no mourning or crying in heaven. Obviously people are commenting to this not following up with the conversation, please see other comments.
@@joseph3225
So I forget about them? Does God remove free will in heaven?
@@oryxantilope591 Makes sense considering that's what the desert trilogy fans always say is what's stopping god from making a world that sucks a little less
@@joseph3225the Bible also says you go to hell for mixing fabrics or having a shrimp cocktail. So I won't be using anything that stupid to base my life on.
@@oryxantilope591 Okay very good point, reflecting on scripture I would take that back and say you probably would remember them you just wouldn’t worry about where they are because again the Bible says there will be no mourning, crying or pain. Will there be free will? I think since we chose to follow Christ in this fallen world and rejected the ways of the world when in heaven we would have no desire to sin and being in the presence of God would comfort us.
Even Jesus wept.
As well when he was hung on the cross,looked to the sky and asked," father,why have you forsaken me?"
@@bobfidguello7239 He was quoting a psalm.....a psalm that describes exactly what was happening to him, I think its psalm 22
@@delgandethat’s the common apologetic yes. even though that psalm actually has nothing to do with messianic prophecy.
@@GodlessCommie the new testament authors claim that Jesus quoted that Psalm and that many of the things which happened to Jesus, as recorded in the gospels, are mentioned in the psalm, like his garments being gambled over and him being mocked
Christians do go back and read Jesus into the Old Testament, but that doesn't mean he said those words for no reason. The authors had a story to tell and they told it using previous scripture to back it up. This is what I'm saying
Many people seem ignorant of this and try to use this to claim that Jesus never said he was God or that the gospels deny his divinity
@@delgandeWhen you say “many people”, are you referring to secular Biblical scholars?
“As wonderful as heaven is painted, people don’t seem anxious to get there.”
Robert Park
Blud really just said “Religious people think losing a loved one is sad” as a gotcha lol
Did you not listen to what he said?
It kind of is tho. 😂
Yes because its only obvious if you don’t believe in the Afterlife. Why would you mourn someone you are eventually gonna meet again and who you truly believe is in a better place?
Yes because from a religious perspective you are not losing them forever, its just a temporary goodbye, until you are with them for the rest of time. So it shoudlnt be a big deal, but it is. Not difficult to understand, no?
It only becomes sad when you understand that by death one DOESN'T go to a better place.
Idk man a ship losing communication service and blowing the fuck up is quite the big turn.
It’s the same relative perspective, you won’t see or hear from them ever again, but one you grieve more about
@@sw1nkz50i would be devastated if i could never speak to my best friend ever again. I think about in the same way as if she was dead. I mean my best friend did die. So i do know how that felt and we went through a period of not speaking and i feel as tho i was nearly equally upset with both cases.
@@sw1nkz50no this is very different. If my friend died to a gun shot and another friend went on a cruise which one you think ima miss more? The question he is asking isn’t making any sense. He doesn’t understand anything and just tryna confuse you
@@jonathanmartin7081 If you mean what Lopez is saying, then yeah I know. The knowledge that someone is alive even if you'll never see them again is not comparable to someone dying
@@sw1nkz50 okay based
If your dog ran away but you knew he’d come back years later you’d still miss it
He's not saying you won't miss them. He's saying it's different. Try to follow along.
I would definitely miss my kid if he went on a voyage where we couldn't speak for several years. But I wouldn't feel the same if he was murdered. The entire point is that people view death as different. Which makes no sense if you think your loved one is waiting for you in the afterlife.
@@knightartorias1825 Agreed. Also, if you believe you'll spend eternity in heaven, then being apart from your friend or loved one if they die.. on the grand scale would be the equivalent of somebody going brb to the kitchen for a glass of water.
@arthur_7144It's not really a threat as much as a reminder. And to a religious person a reminder that one day they'll go to heaven. Sounds crazy but it's of comforting to some people that have lost a loved one or are dying themselves. The people that don't feel this way probably don't believe in heaven as much as they say.
@@knightartorias1825the fact is that materialism (evolution) wont permit you to have your own perception of death. if we are from millions of generations, why wont our perception of death be ingrained to our genes? It is because we are unique beyond our atoms, something evolution cannot explain.
@@adriandelacruz-lz7vk Because the animals who had no self preservation have died. So the only ones left are the ones who understand that dying is bad. Lol.
Sorry Alex but the fact that religious people (although i think ALL people have this intuition) don't think that the loved one just vanished out of existence with physical death, that does not mean that the feeling of separation and loneliness isn't strong enough to make you sad. After all psychology plays a role in our mode of being while we are incarnated. Also something else. Newsflash. SUPER rarely we cry and are sad for the passing of our loved one. We are sad because WE miss him/her, it's a rather selfish reaction although a totally understandable one.
Selfishness. Great explanation
@ryanawilson8549 yeah, humans tend to be selfish. Duh
I think people in the comments are missing the point. You will never see this loved one again in either situation. In one situation they are on Mars, the other they are in Heaven. Which is better, Heaven or Mars? Obviously Heaven. And if a person truly believes in Heaven, then they should rejoice at the fact their loved one is experiencing the most amazing thing that is possible to experience.
Grief is instinctive. Death is inherently painful. It’s difficult to articulate logically. Whatever answer Christians give, the pain will still be there. We can’t wish it away simply knowing we’ll see our loved ones again.
It doesn't make sense for us to be sad about death then. God made us perfect, why would we be naturally sad when someone goes to join him in paradise?
@@thebrushman4123
He didn’t make us perfect. And death is separation of loved ones.
@@larrytruelove8659 Still why you be sad? If someone I love is far away but having a great time I obviously wouldn't be sad...Especially if I know they're coming back.
@@thebrushman4123
Because the emotions governing death simply don’t operate logically. One cannot completely overcome that kind of grief.
Let’s say, a family gets separated through a job situation or an offspring going off to school. The separation itself creates grief, even if the religious beliefs teach there will be a reunion at some later date.
Even in the Bible, grief from death is a given. But the Apostle instructed that the grief not be regarded as final, no matter how long the separation was to be.
@@larrytruelove8659 But Why Are We Sad when death. We are naturally sad when somebody dies. Why?
I’ve met plenty of Christians who aren’t afraid of death. I’ve been to funerals that are upbeat celebrations. I’ve spoken to a lot of elderly Christians who are looking forward to death.
That can be achieved in 3 days if they don't drink water
@@falcongamer58Suicide is a sin
@@Boomy0they can just repent.😅
@@DeliMeatTree no repenting opportunity in the afterlife
Self delusion is a hell of a drug.
It would make sense to say that an atheist doesn’t act like an atheist if you were just saying that of one person. But if you find yourself often saying that of people, that indicates you need to reassess your assumptions on how atheists act.
Orrrrrrr, it means that we are organisms with pattern-seeking brains, capable of seeing existing patterns that are true for a group, even if they are not true for every single individual member of that group.
There is a saying that goes something like this " when a baby is born we laughed and smiled but the baby cried , when a person dies we cry but they smile "
Life is hard, no matter how good heaven is. Having loved ones around you helps. Losing them in this life still hurts.
You missed the point my man. He said, that a permanent cease of communication doesn't make you feel the same as them *dying,* therefore, that is not the entre reason for the feelings you get, as hte states aree identical from your perspective.
@@billyjoelbeans And you both missed the reason why religious people are sad when people die. There is no guarantee that communication can't resume again at some point in this life-even with an absurd hypothetical like _going to Mars_ (for f*cks sake) which never fking happens lol. Dying is the only finality in this life. There is 0% chance you will talk them in this life again. That's not the case with loss of communication. There is still a chance you will see them again-especially if they are still on _planet earth._
@@billyjoelbeans it is because death is not a good thing. No religious person thinks death is a good thing even if God uses it for good. Think of it in this way; imagine someone cutting out your auntie's voice box just to cure her cancer, and then replace that voice box after 14 years. You wouldn't be happy about someone cutting out her voice box because it's not a good thing even if it will work out for good.
@@bwalyakangwa1973 Fair and all, but the stated point in this video is: if the person goes to a *better* place, then what justification do you have to be sad or mourning? Its a good thing, immediately realized. I would have to disagree. There are martyrs and the like. There are 100% religious people who see death and their subsequent "afterlife" as beneficial/good.
Also, seems just a touch circular. Death makes us feel bad because death is bad ≠ death is actually bad. It seems to not justify that claim.
And the counter claim, is given the ending, death is actually a good thing. That intuitive sense that death is bad could be interpreted to be a disservice god gives us, or, there is a secular/evolutionary reason, and in the depths of your being, perhaps you can't consider the religion fully true. Or such goes the argument personally I think there are way better arguments but it is interesting even if just for the parent dilemma of ceased communication being the same as death from an individual perspective.
@@billyjoelbeansthat's cuz there's a chance that you might see your friend again with lose of communication so there's expectations but when you die, it's over you are not gonna see them in this life again
It's not Same as this atheist mentioned
As a Christian I would compare this to a mother crying when her teenage son heads off to University for the first time in a far away city. She would cry because she will miss him, not because she thinks he is heading off to hell. I cry when somebody dies because I will miss them, it is more of a selfish act than anything.
Nah. Most people don't cry when their child goes to college. Maybe a few minutes but parents are just as likely to feel joy. People become despondent when people die. A death can fuck people up for months or years. Not minutes.
It’s not selfish to miss someone. There are religious people who have cursed out their Gods, screamed up at the sky and asked why. It’s a pain you can’t describe. I personally think that’s because no matter how set in your beliefs, theist or atheist, you still have no clue what happens after you die. People cling to their belief in God in those moments because it’s too scary to think of the other possibilities.
@@cosmo588 missing somebody is by definition a selfish feeling, it doesn’t mean that it is wrong. You might scream to the sky “why god” because you know and trust that God has a greater plan for them but you are just unable to understand that greater plan. We don’t know what heaven is like, we just know that it is very different to what we know here. How can you possibly say that even the strongest of religious believers doesn’t believe in their heart of hearts that there is a heaven? That is simply not true.
You didn't even watch the damn video. So many Christians are running to here, not watching the video, and asserting the same argument he points out is flawed.
If you're so confident in your religion, why are you so incapable of watching a minute and a half of someone questioning it? And actually sit there and think about it for a second?
This level of defensiveness SHOWS how religion is just so ingrained in a person's ego. You can't, for two whole minutes, just pay attention to what someone who doesn't agree with you is saying.
You think a kid going off to college would feel the same to a Christian person as their kid getting murdered?
@@NoMiddleName2How do you “know” that heaven is so different from earth?
The funny thing is that as an atheist, I've become an absurdist and now think that death is not an objectively bad thing.
I mean, I'd be sad, but does it really matter?
If my life doesn't matter, why should dying or living be a problem for me?
That's why I'm a true religious person by your definition 😅.
I love that hypothetical spaceship scenario, I’ll have to remember that for future chats with religious people.
Death is sad for many people. Regardless of afterlife existing, it's still natural to have such feelings of loss, even if one has a cognitive/spiritual outlook on it.
Why though? If your loved one went to an earthly paradise, you wouldn't mourn them
“Death is sad for many people, *therefore* belief in afterlife exists”
@@michaelm8529 losing someone who you love will always have an impact on someone, we're not robots! the 2 things aren't mutually exclusive, you can mourn someone and at the same time be happy that they're going to a better place
@@stuartgrayis and yet as I say, we miss people who move away but we don't mourn them. It's completely different. Death is unique. We don't act like it's a gateway to paradise and we don't act like it's similar to someone moving to another country
You said basically nothing.
If someone I really cared about went on a spaceship not to return for 30 or 40 years, I would be grief-stricken. It would be almost as sad as if they had died. Imagine all those years of shared experiences we'd miss out on. Yes, it's not the same as death, since in old age, we will meet up and catch up on what had happened in the intervening period, but what a loss it would be for us. Our relationship as we know it would come to an end.
Good point
well, if you're going to be there eventually for eternity, you're not missing out on much long term lmao
Some people may not feel too sure about going to heaven. It's a mystery to us all and it doesn't make you any less of a believer if you're not sure you'll end up in the same place as your loved one.
You're actually missing a crucial point that Alex pointed out. They did not just went on some spaceship, they were actually now in the greatest place we can imagine, Heaven. And with the greatest possible being, God.
@justaway6901 OK, but that doesn't change the fact that I'd be sad about not seeing them again until I was old. I don't think we're sad at funerals because we think our loved ones are suffering. We're sad because we won't get to enjoy their company again during our lifetimes.
Knowing someone you love did not get to live their full life is very sad
To be honest, i would be pretty devastated by both situations if it's a close enough friend.
There is always that uncertainty that either you or your loved one won't go to the same place.
And you are not able to imagine this place and there is a big hole that has to be filled when someone dies, of course it is sad. But one of the main reasons people get happy again is because they know their loved one is in heaven and the hole has been filled.
If a sensible person thinks about the heaven concept for 5 minutes it unravels very quickly.
@@hansj5846 How so? Its a location where God and his creations are located. Don't know what is unrealistic about that.
@@gandalainsley6467 cool. I guess you missed the sensible part.
Theists can't even agree on the basics like Who goes to heaven? and Why does a child have to live in misery before going to heaven?
It's been discussed for hundreds of years and the only thing that has happened is that one denomination has become thousands.
Do you believe that heaven is absolutely perfect?@@gandalainsley6467
A little pushback: if the ship blows up, you are grieving not only the separation, but the fact that your friend didn't get to accomplish something they worked very hard on, their physical experience (blowing up sounds painful), and that their earthly experience was cut short. While people can believe heaven is the most wonderful place, because they are human, they still feel and think about the good (and bad) experiences of earth. And it can br saddening to know someone won't be able to experience those things (just like many parents of severely disabled children are saddened).
Exactly. This question is weird and strangely passive aggressive. Why is he surprised that we are human? Jesus mother wept. Mary Magdalen Wept. Even Jesus wept.
Tears give a release. Get rid of cortisol. It's so bizzare to me
If you believe that they are now in heaven where everything is just pure bliss, then why would you be angry that their earthly presence is cut short if life here is essentially just misery in comparison.
It's like saying they weren't able to finish their football match because someone called them saying they won a billion euros. And you're gonna be sad because they couldn't finish their football match?
@@jarzez I think it's a little bit different in that we don't have a clear concept of Heaven. We only understand the now. Similarly how we can't really conceive of the number of stars in the universe; it's such a big number it almost seems meaningless.
I also think that we would be sad seeing our friend not get to play in the football game, especially if it was the ultimate championship they had been working towards for years/decades. We would understand that they have it better now (billion euros), but we'd be a little sad.
@emilewilliams5361 I can't believe we'd still be sad that they'd missed the match they'd trained for. More importantly, they wouldn't care either, because they'd just won the lottery!
Isn't eternal life often thought of as the ultimate lottery, and therefore nothing could possibly compare? If you 'won' eternal life legitimately, nothing else would matter, and others could only be envious of you.
In truth everyone is afraid of losing what they have here, because they fear that's all there is, and they've known this instinctively, from childhood, despite the placatory platitudes quickly offered up by their parents.
But the Bible teaches that heaven is the ultimate goal, and to reach there vastly overshadows any and all experiences here on earth. The only people who truly embrace that view wholly are the people who do 9/11 like activities, and possibly monks.
Some people aren't as sad about a death as some people are about even a temporal separation
I feel like it boils down to human empathy.When u realise he has died u are more troubled by the pain he might have endured and how brutal the whole experience must have been according to his perspective in addition to you losing contact with that person for the rest of your life.
As a Christian myself I don’t find this question too difficult. It’s similar to if your best friend since you were a kid tells you they’re moving to another country for example. You have grown up with this friend and love them and now they will be too far away to see all the time. Of course you will be sad about it. Now just apply this thinking to the thought of a loved one dying.
So you would be equally as sad if your best friend moved to another country, as you would be if they were killed? No difference to you?
@massivecowbreakout7555 that's not what he said
@@massivecowbreakout7555where did they say that would be the same thing…? There are many reasons beyond one’s own feelings of loss that someone would be upset if someone died…that person’s life has been cut short (that’s a sadness that people feel when they hear about a child dying in the news), what if the deceased had young children or dependents, that’s something that would sadden people.
This really isn’t hard to understand, though I think it must be for a lot in these comments because it’s not something you know from books, it’s something you know from interacting with other people.
@@jstone5239 it's like you people didn't even watch the video you're commenting on
It's similar but not identical. Alex is arguing here that in some sense, if the afterlife is just viewed to be a permanent departure to a "different place," then the grieving of the death of loved ones for Christians seem disproportionate.
Of course we all would be sad if a friend of ours is moving permanently away. We also would be very sad if a friend of us died. But in the case of Christians, the grieving of the death of their loved ones seem to be much greater than the extent of what their belief implies(i.e. there is the afterlife, and the death of the loved one is simply your loved one moving to a "different place")
If I was saying goodbye to my loved one for 80 years because they were going on holiday to an island paradise where I could have zero contact with them, my reaction would be similar to grief with the belief they’d also go to heaven. It is almost like how at the end of the Lord of the Rings they grieve Frodo even though he merely goes to another location where they will not see him again (this even includes Sam who eventually does go to join Frodo, analogously to religious people eventually going to heaven). Furthermore, sometimes your reaction to something is worse than what you know to be the corresponding reality. For example, I can know full-well that I have no ammo in a gun when I shoot it, but if I aim it at my face and hear a loud bang, my initial reaction will be shock and fear before my relief kicks in. It is similar with religious people and death - you can have a shock where your body doesn’t fully comprehend the reality but then the comfort of heaven kicks in.
Yeah that’s fair.
I think there is a point to be made that death should be a little less feared by religious people for obvious reasons.
But, then again, the analogy made here isn’t bulletproof by any means.
I feel like people would still be sad about not seeing their loved ones even if they’re still alive.
@@MrMelonsz thanks for your reply mate, I appreciate hearing your thoughts. Rare to have such a civil response online these days!
I don't think I would if I lived eternally. What is 80 years to that?
@@michaelm8529 if you are willing to grant that at least some people in the world, or who have ever lived, have truly believed deeply that Jesus died to give eternal life (e.g., people in medieval Europe, including those who believed they had visions of Jesus in religious experiences etc), they will still have grieved their loved ones. People are infamously bad at predicting how they will react under hypothetical conditions - better to go off how people who truly believe in eternal life actually react rather than how you think you’d act were you to have a radical shift in beliefs.
I think I remember reading something about how the vast majority of people are not able to understand an argument like this that involves a hypothetical.
I’m a Catholic and I agree with him. This is true. It’s because of a lack of what’s called a living Faith in what happens after death. So many people believe, but in a weak manner.
My grandmother died in October, but she was very devout and I had good reason to believe she had been saved. I could not make myself sad for her. In fact, I was the pretty much only one at the funeral who wasn’t crying and indeed felt I couldn’t be. I really felt that I had all the reason in the world to be happy for her and to marvel at what God had done for her and be happy that she now knows the full truth, won’t suffer from her old age, and can be with the Saints for eternity. What a blessed lot!
I just regret I couldn’t do more for her before she passed away.
Exactly. I’ve always wondered why they are upset about death. Why they care at all about this life, how much money they have etc. it’s all inconsequential to an eternity in paradise.
Mourning is justified biblically because we view death as a result of sin. However we have hope and promise of eternity. Also true Christians should not fear death and should view money and materialism as inconsequential except for it to bring glory to God. In other words be extremely charitable and spread light to the world.
@@brendanmassie9586first, what sin was involved in say, the hypothetical scientist whose spaceship blew up?
Second, if that’s your definition of true Christians I’m not sure there are very many of those
@@KevSB07 we believe that the world inherited sin after the fall and that is the root of all imperfection and death. Sin is not just referred to as an individual breaking rules and committing wrong.
The Bible says that the way is narrow and few will enter the kingdom of heaven so you’re correct. Many people who claim to be Christian only do so for cultural reasons and have no actual understanding of biblical teaching.
Many reasons for this other than what you said. Death isnt just sad because you dont get to talk to that person anymore. The connotations of pain and suffering, the tradgedy of them being gone from this world, no longer able to contribute to life in any way. The fact that death only exists because we have failed and fallen to sin. The finality if death on earth hits people much much harder than the idea of never talking to someone again. This isnt because of a lack of belief in heaven, but because of the objective reality that they are no longer on earth with any earthly relationships or affects, and they probably suffered immensely for at least a little bit before being gone.
The bible actively encourges little regard for material wealth and encourages you to only use it for the gooe of others.
As for ehy we care about this life, there are also several answers but from a purely pragmatic standpoint we care because it is a small window where we get to help others come to christ. If every christian killed themselves, the world would be doomed to sin.
Please help me understand why we all just coporately forgot that death is the enemy according to scripture and not something beautiful or natural?
I’ve never cried over a death or been worried about it, so this is interesting to me, people may just call me unfeeling, but I do my best to help people who I care about and I also try to be nice to everyone, as well as seeing things from their point of view. I think it has to do with people’s personal loss, I would have a hard time crying over anyone I’ve connected with though. So I think what leads me to not crying is my belief of death being a part of life, I enjoy studying paleontology and so have lots of experiences with dead things, and understand that that’s just how the world works, to be alive is to die. The true unfeeling people are the people who ask questions about why people cry, they don’t cry for the person, they cry for themselves and for their knowledge that they won’t see that person for a very long time, and as soon as you understand that, you understand why they cry.
You don't feel sad for having lost someone you know?
@@andr3wl3vy I feel sad, I hold strong normally for the rest of my family, I also don’t stress about death, I’ve accepted that it is a part of life
To be honest, I don't really relate to being hung up on dead loved ones. I cry, I grieve, it comes back every now and again. But it doesn't prey on my mind. Maybe it's because I have more faith than most that I'll see them again. I thought somehow I might just be built different. But by contrast, I have an unsaved (non-Christian) friend who cut me out of their life 10 years ago and I still can't help thinking about them multiple times a week.
That's because you're sick. You chose not to bond. Your problem.
@@TrueInspiration159
It's okay, man. Whenever you're ready, God will still be there waiting for you. You don't have to feel like you're unforgivable.
“Why do we mourn?”
Because we’re human. We have emotions and connections. Jesus Himself wept when Lazarus died even though He knew He was able (and did) bring Him back to life.
We mourn because death is something to be mourned. It is an upsetting thing to see anyone die. The particular question and answer provided makes it seem like it’s illogical to be sad that your friend is leaving town for the next few years because you’ll see them again soon. Mourning is a human emotion, but heaven provides hope of a reunion. However, hope does not nullify mourning completely. Mourning is an emotion, not something logical, and it completely normal. Christians (and other religious people) are allowed to have emotions, we aren’t all soulless monsters (yes, I understand that many Christians have done wrong, but I am not ever going to condone their actions).
Well, aside from the fact that the explosion is expected to be painful, many people would be equally sad.
Aquinas: "From nature comes the fear of death; faith brings audacity".
It’s because we’re not entirely rational. We have an attachment system that develops before our capacity for language … Affect. Feeling. Embodiment.
That certainly is a factor. Everything intelligent wants to know their friends are alright. Crows, Dolphins, Elephants mourn because of the same reason.
Then why did God make us that way?
@@michaelm8529 would you prefer robots with no emotion?
@@withlessAsbestos I don't think the only two options are meat robots without emotion or emotionally volatile creatures that can't tell paradise from eternal torment
@@michaelm8529 Describe a third creature then, I’m not immune to false dichotomy and am fully willing to hear you out.
It’s simple. Death is the unnatural consequence of the fall. We are experiencing unnatural separation, mimicking eternal death.
Because we had a relationship with that person within our human experience, and that relationship is gone. It’s a loss that cannot be repaired so long as those alive are still here. Grief and sorrow are real human emotions no matter what happens in the next life.
I’m not religious, but I would assume that the feeling of hope is the difference. Like, if you see someone die, everything they were ends in that moment, they can only live on in memory. But in the example, knowing that they could still be alive gives the other person hope. If someone loses communication permanently it’s a Schrödinger’s cat situation. I notice that’s what keeps people going in the long term but in the short term, I think deep down people feel the finality of death and society is so focused on the hole that person left. Most people are just destroyed by the sudden change in their life. Having someone important ripped away and never to be seen alive ever again is really hard to go through. I imagine many people choose to believe in an afterlife because they simply cannot fathom living in a world without the person they love.
"Everything they were ends in that moment" They go to heaven no?Which you will also eventually join. So its not really the end of them is it.
@@vaishanthjv2519 Anything after death is speculation though, the person on earth is gone forever and as far as anyone has ever seen there is no way for anyone on earth to connect with someone who’s died or we’d have concrete proof of the afterlife. All I’m saying is it’s final for the rest of their lives, you’ll never see that person again as long as you live and for most people that’s what’s hard to deal with. If seeing someone again in heaven is what keeps people going then that’s a good thing, but as far as I’m concerned the science does not support anything after death and the finality of life is definitely a scary thing to see religious or not.
@@OllieSMH If it is just speculation then you aren't exactly a theist.
@@testacals I’m not? I mean not that I care what label my beliefs have but I don’t believe in an afterlife and never have but I can’t deny for certain if one exists although I personally can’t imagine how that would work. But all I’m trying to do in the previous comments is rationalize how or why someone who believes in an afterlife would feel sad about someone dying and I think that there are clearly reasons to be upset about losing someone and that lots of people choose to believe in an afterlife because they can’t deal with that sort of finality and still be happy
People are upset because they can't really know whether their loved ones will be in heaven or not. We don't truly know the relationship between God and another person so a loss is still upsetting.
The hope is that one day they will be seen again.
people are upset because they value life. They know that life exists because we live through it right before our eyes. There is no evidence that heaven exists. If there were, we'd be way happier about death. Honesty will set you free and give you life.
@@AJ-iu6nw they are upset because they value life? What about people who commit suicide? Do they value life?
People are upset because they won't be seeing their loved ones anymore; Going on journeys through life with them, memories with them, experiences that only those people can experience together, having conversation with them, breaking bread with them. This all disappears when someone dies.
Life is vanity if you think there is no heaven, all your thoughts, memories, friendships will disappear once you go so why are you here in the first place?
Legacy is pointless because those that succeed you can squander what you've worked so hard for. Do you even know your great great grandparents? They mean nothing to you, and most likely most people. We're only here for a short time...
@@Jesse-ig8mmlife is vanity if you don’t believe in an afterlife? Do you genuinely think about things so shallowly?
@@cosmo588 no, the contrary. How is the thought of life being meaningless without God shallow? Clearly I've thought existentially about life enough to conclude that life is vanity without God.
Where's the accountability without God for one's life? If the serial killer lives a life of slaughtering people and never gets charged and dies, what does it matter if he's a serial killer or not? Where does standard of living if we just live and die with no afterlife or hope in something more than what we have now? If society dictates morality, then what we do doesn't actually have any form of consequence, because we're here one day and gone the next.
What do you gain by trying to convince me that there is no God?
we don't gain anything. You gain the world.@@Jesse-ig8mm
“ You have no right to question my thoughts 💭 or opinions “
Its because people dont believe, the ones that believe genuinely are rare and are full of hope and joy.
Everyone wants to go paradise but no one wants to die
Their reaction is not the process of dying, which is momentary and sometimes not altogether unpleasant, but the permanence of death, which is not.
@@godless1014 If there is no life after death then we wont have to worry about it because we will cease to be. If there is life after death, it's a bonus. That said, getting old, suffering ill-health and dying can be quite a long drawn out and unpleasant business. Nobody wants a death via cancer (like my Mum) or colitis and operations and a year as an invalid in a care home (like my Dad). Once your dead though, you dont have to worry about hospitals, pain, illness etc.
@sakibmir5360, there are all kinds of reasons a person holds onto this life even if they believe Jesus. For one, nowhere in scripture does it tell us to exit stage left once we get saved. It would be rather selfish to have that outlook anyway because we are called to spread the gospel. Furthermore, if you’re young or middle aged and are married or have kids you aren’t gonna wanna leave them behind. Plus, one is gonna wanna make sure their children are bought up to know the same path.
Being a Christian the last Christian funeral i went to was for a friend of mine called John. We called it Johns leaving party and it was very cheerful and we were all sad we wouldn’t see him for a while, but we didnt experience the same suffering that someone who believes in no life after death would feel.
Christians say they have the good news, me as a Deist have the better news:
+ there is a god/gods (behind the big bang, but that’s all he ever interfered in this world, maybe he only watched it happen)
+ he never shows up (he doesnt want to be worshipped),
+ he never interferes in this world (no strange miracles)
+ he didnt give us rules and moralities (we have to figure out on our own)
+ he doesn’t judge us
+ Life in that sense is an experience, not a test
+ after life we ALL go where we came from before we came in this world
Thats called an unjust immoral God right there! Regardless my entire experience denies that claim since ive experienced Gods miracles in my own life and you can too if you came to him in humility and trust😊😊@@user-hr8dx9qw4n
@@user-hr8dx9qw4n Yet you have no moral standard by which to judge by and you live in a suffering world in which the only logically deistic explanation for life is nihilism. If you’re a deist, it’s better to off yourself (in my opinion). Come to God brother ✝️❤️
Alex can do MUCH better than this for attacking religion. There’s two simple answers. They are mourning that they won’t be able to see/speak with them again until death or they are hypocrites. Your choice. L take for atheism and from Alex. ✝️
You clearly dont fuckin understand what death means then, life doesent start again, it stops.... Thus death..... Just cuz you LIE to yourselves does not make it better, also i like the little dig at the end there, but its better than condemning your own family to hell cuz they dont believe in what you do...... Atheists will often say let by gones be by gones, but a religious cultist will often damn people to hell for not believing their version of lies...... Whats that tell you?
We are sad that we will never see them again until we die. It's like how you feel sad after spending your weekends with a loved one, and when they leave or ypu separate you feel kinda sad but amplified a thousand fold.
When your friend makes it into Caltech, but you haven’t gotten your application back yet and don’t know if you’ll see them again for a while, you still miss them. Life is unpredictable, you might never see them again.
People do get heartbroken and extremely upset when they have to say goodbye even when they’re still alive Alex 😂😂😂😂if they believe there’s something after death and they’ll meet again one day, the pain of losing them in this life is hardly going to make them feel much better even if they think they’ll see each other one day. You’re usually on point but this one was an extremely weak and lazy argument I’m afraid.
You are completely wrong, which is more funny😂😂😂.
I have never mourned a loved one moving away. I miss some people but to equate that to how I feel when someone dies is just not equal
Seems like you missed the argument
@@michaelm8529 yah because when people move, you can actually potentially see them any time you want. but if they die..? God knows how long before you meet again.
@@michaelm8529I’m not religious in the slightest but I agree with you. Christians believe that we are imperfect beings with irrational emotions, which we are. For them to be completely at peace with death and welcome it would mean they think that life on Earth doesn’t matter (since, in their belief, death is not the end but the beginning of an eternal paradise). But they believe that what you do on Earth is important and that life is precious, so of course death is still hard to deal with. Especially because, like I said, we are imperfect beings with natural emotional responses to things.
And personally, I don’t think my reaction to knowing I will never see someone again and their death would be that much different. I think Alex’s example is also a little ignorant considering that the person’s death would be for nothing, rather than them participating in an important development in the future of humankind, so of course their death would be disappointing.
About your example, my friend being on Mars and not having a way of communicating with me would make me very sad, I would take it similarly to an accident that puts him in a coma that the doctors say he won't wake up from.
However, there is always a chance, in both of these scenarios, that my friend could come back into my life or obtain a method of communicating with me, and that's why I wouldn't be as heartbroken compared to if he had died.
Imagine a family of a girl who has gone missing, and it's been a very long time and they haven't heard anything about her. After say a year or two, they hear that she was found dead. They will then grief more than they were grieving before, but less than they would had she never gone missing and suddenly died. That's because for the duration of the time she was missing, they had hope of seeing her again, but they lost that when they heard that she was dead. The same grief is always there because they don't see or hear from her, although the brutality of the situation might increase the pain. Either it's a slow burn or a sudden burst of emotions, but either way, they would grieve.
And I would also like to add that serious religious individuals who have dedicated a large part of their lives to their religious beliefs don't usually feel the same pain after the death of a loved one compared to non-religious individuals of the same emotional capacity and/or temperament.
Ok fine. If you hypothetically knew for sure you would never ever ever see your friend again, would you feel the same
@iamdog3540 I definitely would feel a lot of grief. However, as Christians, we have a faith that when a person believes in Jesus and His death and resurrection and repents of their sins, they receive salvation and eternal life.
If I know that my friend is not saved, but is still alive and has time to believe and repent and be saved, I will have hope for their good and that might help ease the grief. Additionally, I will pray for them to be saved and for their good, which I wouldn't if they were dead.
Just get rid of all the unknown variables. You know you will never see your friend in the rocket ship again. You know the friend in both scenarios will go to heaven when they die. Is it the same
@iamdog3540 I believe so, at least in theory. Of course, I cannot know if it would be the case in practice.
But I do think that the grief will come in different ways, while still the same amount. Knowing that your friend is dead, the grief will hit all at once, whereas hearing that I will never be able to contact them on earth again will be gradual. It is very similar to them being lost and presumed dead. 1 thing that I mentioned is that I will pray for them because the prayers can still affect the living but not the dead. The second is I will still have hope of seeing or hearing from them again.
You cannot remove these variables completely, because that will be the way I, and I presume many other Christians, react to the situation. Not having confirmation that the friend is dead, gives hope and reason to pray, which have to be accounted for.
@@michaelloophole the point of the removed variables to test the consistency of your own personal beliefs. If you believe (a) is true because of (b), if you were to remove (b), (a) should no longer be true. That’s the point of a hypothetical, the answer should be relatively simple. I’m aware that this scenario is extremely unlikely but that doesn’t matter as its meant to test the extremes of what you truly believe in. Also it’s technically possible that Jesus finally comes back down to earth and performs miracles and raises your friend from the dead. Same thing can apply.
That...that makes a bit of sense actually. When I moved to a new town and didn't talk to my friend for a couple of years. It was just, sure I miss them, but I'll talk to them later, it's not a big deal. It wasn't anywhere near the earthshattering, I'll never see them again, cry for months, wanting to off myself because life has no meaning, they should be alive again, when someone dies.
If i knew I would see them again in a few years, yeah I wouldn't be as sad, I would slightly miss them, and I definitely wouldn't want to rip them from paradise to suffer on earth, that would be so cruel.
We still mourn because death is something we understand to be inherently bad, like "hey, that isn't supposed to happen". It's a deep unavoidable feeling, that we experience regardless of the comfort we have in knowing the deceased has gone to be with God.
What’s your point exactly? Would I be more upset if my friend died and I was separated from them, yeah, because the only experience I have to this point is temporal, bodily experience, therefore I am more attuned to what it’s like to be temporarily separated from someone I love, that I will then interact with again in a way I know and have experienced. The separation of death, while I as a Christian, acknowledge the hope that they are hopefully in Heaven and I will see them again, they are separated from me in a way I haven’t experienced before vis a vis that relationship. Maybe a decent analogy for this would be if I was separated from my kids for a couple hours because they’re at the park, I’d miss them less than if I was separated from them for an indeterminate amount of time because they moved halfway across the world I didn’t know when I would see them again. I know what the former is like, the latter is more unknown.
That has no logic at all. Not seeing the children for a few hours vs. a long time is not even slightly comparable.
The example with the trip to Mars is much better. Of course, you have to assume that there will be no reunion.
So:
Kids launch to Mars, will be well taken care of on the trip, but you'll never see them again. Of course you are devastated, but emotionally it is much better than if the children were to simply explode.
The reason "because being in heaven is such an unfamiliar form of separation" makes no sense at all. Flying to Mars is also unfamiliar. Why would you think it's better for the children to be in a rocket with a bunch of fallible people than in the perfect place with the perfect people? It makes no sense.
@@germanyoutubedeutschland9899 “no logic at all” ok. First, I’m not implying it’s “better” that they’re still alive on my view, just that it’s more comfortable knowing that they’re still alive, ergo there remains the *possibility for bodily reunification, whereas death marks an separate which we haven’t experienced before, akin to being removed from my kids in a way I have not experienced before. It’s the known (or, if you like *more known) vs. unknown experience. One could say the same of their own death. I don’t know what it’s like to not be alive, therefore I can reasonably have some rational fear of death, while still acknowledging that my belief in heaven says I’ll be in a better place. It’s easier to handle *more known experiences than unknown ones.
Yes, the going in a rocket is unknown, sure. But they’re still alive, which is more known than if they die, something I haven’t experienced vis a vis that person. Like, I’d be more sad if my wife died than if my wife left me (while I’d be incredibly sad in both cases). I’ve experienced neither, but in one case she’s alive and in the other case she’s not (another aspect of the separation which I haven’t experienced).
@@mac3441If the rocket launched to Mars with little chance of a successful voyage or return and no communication with earth, would the unknown fate of the loved one be worse or better? Exploding on launch is a definitive end but tragic. Someone leaving without an idea if they made it or is suffering or if you'll ever see them again just seems like an awful limbo to be left in. It's why I personally don't understand why the possibility of an afterlife is more hopeful and comforting.
@@Lalelailulo there’s this thing called hope.
@@mac3441 It's just a lot to hope that a paradise exists and the loved one in question is accepted to that paradise. I have hope that I have a good death but that's as far as that extends to concerning the afterlife.
Im Christian and this is completely right! crying in church is about the loss and could be considered 'selfish' but i always kept this thought to myself, even when I drifted away from God!! good stuff
If you are claiming to be Christian and agree with this, you misunderstand what it means to be Christian
The shortest verse in the bible is "Jesus cried". Sorrow is a part of being human. And even Jesus didn't want to die, but he knew he had to.
@@Daiwie44Why tho? He’s going to a place of bliss and happiness, better than the Earth he was forsaken on.
If anything, the emotion a person would get out of that is relief, not sorrow.
@@brendanmassie9586 well I may be wrong... but if our faith in Christ is solid, the grief should be brief and the rejoice apparent. but the focus on the grief reveals the strength in faith. God bless
@@MrMelonsz LOL The Word, Jesus Christ didn't weep for himself, He wept for Lazarus before He raised him from the dead..
there is also sadness because we may never reunite, if one of us ends up not getting into heaven
Completely correct. Many of my fellow christians have said "when I die, I want there to be a celebration and a cheer"
I'm genuinely curious: what is the point this man tries to make? Is this supposed to discredit religion?
I think it's supposed to discredit corrupt religious people, especially conservative politicians, who claim to be "perfect".
If anything, the claim is "we're all human", which is true... I think..?
@@Daiwie44I'm not sure this foolish analogy is discrediting anyone... but you tried 😂😂
It's meant to highlight that religious people might not be as sure of their belief in the afterlife as they claim or want to acknowledge themselves. If you truly had no doubt that your loved ones are in heaven and that you'll meet them again after you die, then what difference is there if that rocket exploded or not? In either case, there will be a long time of separation (in the case the rocket doesn't explode, one could imagine that your loved one has to stay on Mars for an extended period of time, and, because of communication failure, this means a long period of separation). Hence, if you mourn after a loved one's passing because there will be some time of separation, then why would you mourn more if the rocket exploded? This is an example of a push back against some religious people's claim that nonreligious people are more religious than they claim or want to acknowledge, for instance the claim that they actually do "know" that God really exists.
@frede1905 Are you trying to imply watching a loved one get murdered is the same thing as watching someone say goodbye for the last time? How exactly does having human emotion conflict with belief in heaven? This is probably the dumbest analogy and you trying to rationalise it just made it look even dumber... 😂
@@ysycotik You missed the point. You didn't see them being murdered. You only learned that the rocket exploded, and that they instantly died with no pain. In general, just consider any reason why they might have died right after launch, so that it didn't hurt for them. Upon hearing this, it would most definitely feel a lot worse than if they simply to Mars so that you wouldn't be able to communicate with them. The question being asked is why do you feel a difference between the two scenarios. In the former case, they're even in a much better place. That you do instantly feel an enormous difference emotionally between the two scenarios might indicate that the belief in the afterlife is not as ingrained in you as you might think, ie. there is some doubt. That's not a problem for people who acknowledge they're not 100 % committed to their belief in the afterlife, but to those who do claim they have no doubt. That's the point of the question being asked in the video anyway (as far as I understand it)
The key difference here is that religious people know that we often don't treat things as religiously as we should. It's very common to falter in our faith. This is why it is considered an admirable and great act to show faith in the face of great adversity. Such faith is remarkably _uncommon._
So you admit you don't believe any of it, you just hope it's real. You hope a god exists that tortures people he doesn't like for eternity. So you're evil. Lol
@@knightartorias1825lol how about crying after watching sad movies? It's not like actual people are dying is it?
atheists are clowns and atheism is the whole circus
That’s actually interesting. I think loss is something that hurts no matter what you believe.
I'm a Christian and I would be equally sad at both the rocket ship scenarios you proposed.
It’s quite simple, we mourn the time we miss until we are reunited.
Thats not the point. The point is we mourn a different amount for two events which from a Christian perspective should actually be quite the same.
@@vaishanthjv2519 explain further please.
@@Mr_Mashhead Say you and your friend who are both 25 is shifting to another country. You won't see him for a very long time. Lets say 55 years. Compare how sad this would feel against how sad it would feel if he died.
To be religious, you have to allow hypocrisy .
Very strong comment. Anything to back it up?
@@user-hs5hv2xo3t 🤓
But I acatually like religious hypocrites more - because that usually means that they are not completely insane and know when to not follow the impossible standard - when you are hypocrite, at least you are not a fundamentalist.
You are 100% right religious people are very hypocritical, which is exactly why I’m Christian.
Objective morality is only found in religion. Superiority complex atheists like Alex clutch straws in every debate and use arguments interchangeably because they have no solid footing in their moral compass
It's disappointing when missions fail and when people die we miss them. It doesn't matter if you will see them again or not. In my mind the expectation of seeing them again should have the same resultant as the expectation of never existing again.
A simple answer is they are scared. And it's a moment of unbelief
Incredibly simple to answer.
Death and explosions usually contain some level of unexpected events. By the way, you can't equivocate the average death of a person and death in an explosion also. Shuttle explosions and plane explosions are some of the most
traumatizing events, and usually no one who has a loved one in those ever recovers.
Contrast both of these with the trip to mars. If it does go as planned - this does keep the human mind in the frame of reference that all is going as planned, and comforted, content. Literally no part goes unexpected, so of course no one would bat an eye.
In the case of any death some unexpected is involved unless it's like assisted suicide or pulling the plug. Otherwise there is always some level of uncertainty and chaos involved. Religious and atheistic beliefs help shape our understanding of death surrounding someone's passing, which prevents the event from becoming completely debilitating, and helps keep individuals frame of reference and sanity. But no matter what cushion this creates, it doesn't help with sudden death, sickness, illness, unsettled matters, family gatherings, inheritance, and just the pure objective fact some people might not have been prepared for it to happen when it did. The mars example would have none of these problems, so duh, Alex.
It's incredible how Alex simultaneously equivocates like 3 completely wildly different things all at the expense of making some stupid point about atheism and religion. It's an amazing champion you guys have elected. Like the narcissistic college kid who never stops talking, and no one wants to argue with because he just won't shut up or ever settle, but everyone knows he's a moron. I seriously feel bad for atheists if this is their modern champion.
i get your point:
- death is SAD because it's unexpectedly loosing someone
-a trip to mars is NOT SAD because you are expecting to loose someone
-if the ship blows up you were not expecting that and are obviously more sad
-but you were still expecting to loose communication with them forever
-so something else made us more sad.
you could argue it was just the unexpected way it happened
or you could argue its because deep down we fear death more than just "missing someone till heaven"
@@benedictmclindon8090I’ve never heard anyone argue the “missing until heaven” point. Regardless, losing someone close is like losing a piece of yourself. Humans are social creatures who depend on one another, so most of their feelings stem from attachment to them. Even if you were the most stoic religious person in the world, your eyes would at least well up or shed a tear because they’re now gone. The rational takes a break while the emotional comes in temporarily.
@@benedictmclindon8090 i think any honest religious person fears death undeniably. Its more human than religion to fear death i wager. I think the undeniable truth is that both religion and atheism inhabit the interface between consciousness and the unknown. Both systems serve to simplify reality into a box that is convenient to parse upon the individual deaths and life of people. The question is really what does your belief make you do, and change your behavior for better or worse? I think most religious people struggle with death on average the same way any person of any system. The point is here that the surprise death scenarion that is Alex's hypothetical example is a poor example because in one cae everything literally goes according to plan while the other does not.
This is quite a bad video, but videos like these are generally rare on the channel
@@sparshjohri1109 in my experience its actually quite opposite. Alex O'Conner is a type of emporer with no clothes. He regularly engages in insincere surface level cursory glances at religious topics barely understanding religious beliefs, scapegoating very easy common targets like fundamentalism or scriptural literalists, or creationists which make up a tiny minority of the religious. He regularly makes blatant false statements or uses obfuscation by making overly complicated language, and in this case and many others he regularly uses equivocation. There are a couple reasons he is popular, one is that his fans are actually that dumb and can't think for themselves and he sounds eloquent while seeming to bolster their positions. The other is that there are many normal intelligent people who are either not in an ecosystem that they have encountered his ideas and would easily see 1 million reasons why his arguments suck who are just regular college students or professors, but they choose not to speak out because its simply not wise and takes a particular kind of narcisstic personality to do what he does. The fact he is a proponent of determinism is utterly moronic, and most likely a gimmick just to get more clicks than anything. This question why don't religious people love death is actually a perfect example of the kind of insincere snarky moronic BS he has always done. Now is no different from him 5 uears ago. This guy wants to he the next Dawkins and doesn't even have a single bachelor's degree. No wonder he's the atheist agnostic champion of the zoomer generation lmao.
I'm religious and I'm not afraid of death, I don't think that death is really the end if not the beginning of something much more grand. I believe this life is a test and shows good and bad , yet the push towards grace snd relief from evil provides Peace.
Agreed, although I think almost anyone will cry at their own death or at least at the death of a loved one. We’re designed in such a way where that’s how strong and confusing emotions.
His argument wasn't that you are afraid, it was that you mourn the death of loved ones. You don't behave like they've gone to paradise
I call bullshit
@@CobraQuotes1Almost anyone who’s been through long periods of depression is scared of the idea of death.
@@michaelm8529 Well, even assuming that we could be certain that they went to paradise. We have to come to terms that they’ve gone well before us. Combined with the natural mourning response, grieving the fact that someone has gone away for an unknowably long time, especially unexpectedly, is entirely reasonable. Especially sense we do need a leap of faith to believe they are in paradise, and the grieving process is no time for trying to defend Kierkegaardian philosophy, regardless of if you support it in an un distressed state.
Ironically, this would make a great message in church. You’re correct, there is no reason to mourn deeply aside from not being able to see them again on earth.
Even in the Bible, you return to dust upon death. There is no verse in context that ever indicates you instantly go to heaven.
Death
If he is a good man, death will be a release;
If he is a bad one, it will release others from him.
Idries Shah
Wow, this is a rather strong analogy which I never heard before. Definitly going into a mental map for later use heuhue
Many reasons for this other than what he said. Death isnt just sad because you dont get to talk to that person anymore. The connotations of pain and suffering, the tradgedy of them being gone from this world, no longer able to contribute to life in any way. The fact that death only happens because of our failure and sin. The finality if death on earth hits people much much harder than the idea of never talking to someone again. This isnt because of a lack of belief in heaven, but because of the objective reality that they are no longer on earth with any earthly relationships or affects, and they probably suffered immensely for at least a little bit before being gone.
@@CrankyPants05 so if the analogy changed to "he died painlessly in the rocket", these concerns shouldn't exist.
@@filipe.sm31 simply put, you didn't comprehend what I said if you think that's the case.
@@CrankyPants05 the reasons you gave for death being sad other than not being able to talk to the deceased:
Pain and suffering - wouldn't happen if he died painlessly
The tragedy of them gone from this world - why would it be a tragedy if they are literally going to a much better place with no downsides?
No longer able to contribute to life - why is that sad if they are going to a better place and if God can contribute much more than the deceased?
@@filipe.sm31 it is tragic because the world changes every time someone dies, their contributions to the world and to their loved ones ceases. that is a sad thing. whether you were ever going to talk to them or not is irrelevant to that fact. and the fact that God can contribute more than them doesn't change the tragedy of them being Gone from this world, that argument doesn't make any sense.
If you've been to a funeral for a person who's family is very religious, you'll see a very strong mix of mourning and rejoicing. The Bible says "we do not grieve without hope." There is quite literally no hope in an atheist funeral. Only memories and loss.
1) I think both you and Jordan are right. Because almost always, if there are two very big sides of an issue, both sides have enough truth on them to pull a massive following. 2) It's easy for me to think that, our grief is largely instinct. Chemical. Emotional. We did not evolve to go on massive long space flights. But we evolved at a time when, it was beneficial to herd and organisms that, if they ever saw their own kind being killed, to have a reaction so negative, they'd try to avoid that and survive as long as possible themselves.
I grew up in a church of mostly older people - 20+ people in our church died by the time I was 25. Most of them showed little to no fear of dying, almost all of them knew they were dying and had months of that awareness before they died.
People get sad when a friend that was visiting leaves. They get sad when their friends move away. If you don't understand why people are sad when their loved ones are separated from them, it's willful ignorance.
It is willful ignorance. It’s like saying “why are you sad that your sister was raped, she was given a billion dollars afterwards.” No matter what the payment is afterwards, it doesn’t change the tragedy of death or rape. Our own God cried when Lazarus died, even He is saddened by death moments before resurrecting him.
He wasn't saying "you wouldn't be mourning them if they went to Mars", he was specifically comparing that situation to them going to Mars, but dying instead. If you would be more mournful for them dying than them going to Mars, then it's not actually the "never contacting them again" part that your mournful about.
@@RasmusVJSI don’t think it has very much to do with missing them, although that is part of it. Death is still death, and it is tragic in and of itself, regardless of where the person goes afterwards. For those who believe in an afterlife, you can be mournful that a death has occurred while still being hopeful for their future.
When someone dies do you "miss them" the same way as if they moved away? This is like saying hospitals are stupid because paper cuts heal
@@audrakoch431if you believe that death in this life is only the beginning, and that you’ll live in eternal paradise, and that you’ll see all the people you loved again one day, death is not tragic. So no, death isn’t just death, it’s just a stepping stone, in your eyes. The alternative is that death is finale, you love and lose until you yourself pass and your conscious experience ends there. That’s death, the other is rebirth. If I knew my mum was going to go start a new life in peace, and one day I’ll join her, I’d be overjoyed. But that’s not what I personally believe, so grief is the closest thing there is to experiencing death before I actually die.
Because as Christians there's a recognition this separation was not meant to be. And it was caused by our sin. So Alex is right here it's not just we miss them but that we recognize why they are seperated.
St Theresa's most famously poem:
I live without living in me,
and I expect a life so high,
that I die because I do not die.
I live already beside myself
since I am dying of love;
because I live in Him,
who wanted me for Himself:
when I gave my heart to Him
He placed this sign in it,
that I die because I do not die.
Remember, unaliving your children before the age of reason is the greatest act of love you can do
If you're not saying this sarcastically, you might want to go check yourself into a jail.
@@AlexReynard ofcourse, im not even christian... the goal of life is to get into heaven, right? children below the age of reason gets into heaven automatically. So by unaliving your children, you get them into heaven...
@@Botjer1How do you know they get into heaven automatically? Oh i got it. Assumption.
@@juliegeorge6227 Do you think children go to hell?
@@Botjer1 I am not God to judge someone. I am not entitled to conclude someone goes to heaven or hell. I don't even know them/their thoughts/, I am around 30 years old, living as per science in a world that is spinning for more than 4.6 billion years. I am a work in progress.
Jesus Christ says "Judge not and you will not be judged". It makes sense. He also says "Many are called and few are chosen".How will I know who gets in? It is God's responsibility to judge and he will judge the world. But one thing I know is his standard of judgement is far above human standards. His ways are higher than our ways and his thoughts are higher than our thoughts.
As a follower of Christ, I get saddened when my loved ones die because none of them are believers.
Yet I am not utterly hopeless because I belong to the minority of Christians who understand that the end of all ends will be in perfect order where all creatures get right with God.
In our church for example, when an older member of our church dies, we do not get sad, we all understand she/he went to their eternal home.
From a Jewish perspective, the reason we’re upset when someone dies is the same reason we’re here in the first place. To do God’s commandments in order to make this world a dwelling place for God. When one dies, they are no longer able to help this cause and can’t support others to do it either.
From a Christian perspective, I’m in alignment with your answer, but for the cause of the gospel - which is also to do God’s commandments.
@@timeforprovidenceNice! I’m glad we’re in agreement. 😊
So, someone's death is like a coworker being fired and now you're understaffed?
@@ImNotQualifiedToSayThisBut kinda I guess
@@ImNotQualifiedToSayThisBut, combine coworker with family member.
I’ve had this thought for quite some time. He is exactly correct. Religious people are definitely less religious than they think they are and this is a perfect example of how they show it
Spot on. Here is an idea: why not admit we simply don't know and cannot know. Why not accept our limitations?
Brilliant. Exactly right.
this whole argument is dumb, Alex says religious people are sad when people die because deep down they know there is nothing after death. By his own logic I can say we all have morals because deep down we all know we'll be held accountable in the end.
@@spoon8754You compared his argument with a completely unrelated argument. Good job.
@@macdonald2k lol it's not but ok buddy
@@spoon8754So you wouldn't be any more sad if the rocket explodes, is that right?
@@macdonald2k of course you're more sad when you see someone die. The Mars example is weak because you don't know if they're alive or dead where as if they saw the ship explode they know their loved one is dead and the Mars example completely relies on the hopes, beliefs, and FAITH of the person back on earth.
Death is a universal human experience but it can only be understood on an individual level.
We're not emotionless, so of course we'll be sad their gone now, but rejoice later as we'll be with them in heaven because of what Jesus did for us on the cross.
This is a good point. I mean obviously as a religious person you will always have slight doubt so that might be part of it. But it could also be social conditioning to make us think death is a sad occasion. I’m sure after 100 years we could condition are self’s not to be sad over death or even celebrate it.
It nice to hear an intelligent philosopher actually doing what a philosopher is suppose to do, in a eloquent way, in today's climate.
Bruh, this is a very shallow argument. The reason for sadness can be longing, losing your support, etc.
At the time of parting, I'd wager that no religious person thinks what if heaven doesn't exist and we never meet again.
It's more due to the loss of a strong bond than anything else.
On the other hand, the cognitive dissonance of an atheist is not due to any other factors but his beliefs. No atheist lives his life as though reality doesn't exist. No matter how much an atheist rationalizes, it's all just talk. He won't live based on his philosophy but will still tell others it's the best philosophy there is.
"The reason for sadness can be longing, losing your support, etc."
Wouldn't that be equally true for both parts of the analogy?
@@jelcoleys8087 How so?
As a muslim I am excited to meet my lord and if a friend or family member dies i would still feel sad at the separation but i promise you not as sad as an atheist. Our pain isn’t the same. To you thats it, they don’t exist, to me i may even feel relief that their lord chose to call them back to him at that specific time.
As a Deist I can tell you that we all will be fine after death.
YOu as theistic Muslim think humans have to follow man-made rules claimed to be the word of god written in a holy book, in your case the Quran. If not they get punished according to your man-made belief.
The main harm and danger caused by the man-made Bible and the man-made Quran is, that even though they contain man-made wisdom, they also contain man-made errors that are claimed to be the word of their god. By that, they expect the reality to adjust to those errors and not vice versa. Thats very harmful, especially as those man-made and “godly claimed” errors include topics like e.g. astronomy, evolution, biology and homosexuality.
@@user-hr8dx9qw4n funny when you talk about errors and claim "It's man made" without even giving it a chance to prove itself ,
There was one time I was studying quantum model of atom and I came across the probability distribution and it ticked me off cause it seemed absurd to me have 1 thing can be at multiple places at once, at the end when exams came around I finally said lets just try to give it a chance and I was completely blown away how orbitals work, similarly if you are claiming "it's not by God" then I don't know man I think you are educated illetrate.
Also what is the harm in reading Qur'an I assure you that you'll become more of what you are now.
@@matirjeux5481 Who tells you that I didnt read the Quran?
The Quran is a man made book with man made wisdom and man made errors:
- Geocentricism is wrong
- Moon split in two is wrong
- The sky/heaven as a ceiling is wrong
- First humans created from clay is wrong
- Adam and Eve never existed
- homosexuality is not a seduction by a satan, but a natural born healthy sexual orientation with an evolutionary sense
- Semen originating between the backbone and ribs is wrong
- Embryos bones formed before flesh is wrong
- Flat earth is wrong
- Etc etc.
This are just a few of the many examples of scientific errors in the Quran.
The Quran contains exactly the scientific knowledge of the scientists of the time it was written in.
If it would be the word of an all-knowing god, it would be, even back then, without any mistakes.
But it isn’t.
I love this ideology. Myself and friends have the conversation regarding terminal diagnosis.
You know you're dying. You are ageing. Can't be stopped. However, even with that knowledge, you don't really contemplate it.
Someone who is diagnosed with a terminal illness - like cancer - is suddenly very aware of their mortality. The really interesting part is how family and friends become hyper aware of this person's mortality too.
That hyper awareness (I believe) is the primordial fear of death. Organised religion and religious belief (they are very different things) is the knee jerk to the idea of death.
Trying to "soften the blow" if you will.
Knowing they're in a good place doesn't take away the grief of having lost them on this earth. It's not that difficult to understand, Alex. Ou miss the person, and you grieve, and then faith reminds you that it's okay.
The point is that you shouldn’t feel differently about the person going away for a long time vs the person dying. You should feel the same way in either case, if you actually believe that you’ll see the person again either way.
@@zacklyons1284 well first of all you are greatly underestimating how many people mourn the loss of their loved ones when they travel far away. When my mother and I left the country, my grandmother was grieving as if she's burying us. You overgeneralize and then make conclusion based on false assumptions.
Second of all, "I have hope I'll see you again in this life" is a powerful feeling that makes a big difference.
And lastly, no matter how you try or don't try, your fate after this life is in the hands of God, and you don't know for sure what he has planned for you, so you don't know if you will meet again for sure.
But most importantly, we do grieve. We grieve when we lose a person for long and for good. Because it pains us to be separated from them. Before you base your conclusions on different assumptions, please revise the assumptions first
@@ang5798 Almost everyone who believes in an afterlife treats death differently than a person leaving home. There are exceptions, but the point is that there should be no exceptions, if they actually do believe in an afterlife in which they will get to see the person again.
So in this example, the person believes in an afterlife, believes that they will get to see that person again, and also doesn’t treat the two scenarios the same way.
Go to a funeral, then go to a going-away party. There’s a huge difference in the response to the two situations.
It’s not overgeneralizing or making false assumptions. It’s taking people at their word when they tell you what they believe, and then observing that most people treat the two scenarios completely differently. It’s 100% observation, not assumption.
@@zacklyons1284 you might have your point but that doesn't mean it's right. Just because you think so, doesn't make it so. And you can repeat all you want to me, I don't have to agree with your choices and opinions. If you think you're so smart for this, go enjoy yourself I guess
@@ang5798 Here are things that are not debatable:
-Most people who believe that they will see their loved ones in the afterlife grieve more for death than they do for their loved ones leaving for a long period of time. This is demonstrated by the difference between religious funerals and going-away parties. One is sadder than the other, almost universally.
-If they will eventually see their loved ones again, as they claim to believe, then the only difference between the two scenarios is that their loved one is happier until they see each other again, which actually makes death the happier option.
-The fact that people are sadder about the death of a loved one than about the loved one leaving temporarily cannot be reconciled with the beliefs that they claim to have, since death should actually be the happier option.
If someone believes that a loved one is better off in heaven and that they’ll get to see the loved one again, they should be less sad when the loved one dies than when the loved one leaves. Most of the time, this is not the case.
It leads you to ask why their feelings are not consistent with the beliefs they have. I’m not even saying anyone is incorrect about anything, it’s just weird that the inconsistency exists if they actually believe what they say they do.
Some are sad because they are scared of leaving this world behind, including loved ones filled with grief and having to deal with a massive life change. Others because of the suffering that death entails. But many Christians, myself included, are not afraid of death, only hoping God will bring it about at the right time. Literally no fear. This is the good news.
amen
The right time? So you'd prefer to be on earth, away from God for some indefinite amount of time rather than with him right now in heaven?
@@mackhomie6 Well God gave me children. So currently, yeah.
@@thechristologists8479why not all of you go to heaven rn??
@@thechristologists8479 but ideally, you and your kids would go see God right now. Is there some reason you don't arrange for this?
It seems like you don't really want you or your kids to be with him all that badly.
Also, you say "god gave me children," but I would bet a pretty penny there was a penis involved.
Ah, you've stumbled on a great Christian truth! That we are far weaker and feebler in faith than we imagine ourselves to be. This only throws us back on the need we have for God. I put forward to you the Pauline correspondence with the Thessalonians, who were struggling with this exact thing, and were comforted by the words of a friend and mentor:
"But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers and sisters, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as indeed the rest of mankind do, who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose from the dead, so also God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep through Jesus."
And one day he will wipe away every tear, and now he is faithful to comfort us in our strife and groaning, even if it ultimately stems from our shortsightedness and faithlessness.
Amen, brother! Thank you for that encouragement.
Sounds like a whole lotta copium to me
hahahahaha, I don't blame you for feeling that way. What I would say is that none of us are well acquainted enough with ourselves that we know all our shortcomings. Least of all me, so I don't shy away from the idea that I am in many ways coping with my own inadequacy (as we all do). What I will say is that it is in the Christian faith that our inadequacy is covered for and overwhelmed by the grace of God and the sacrifice and resurrection of his son. What that means is we can, as much as humanly possible, grapple with our inadequacy with peace and joy. If you tell me my faith is weak or I am inadequate, I have no reason to deny you. It is the fact that God cares for and uses inadequate creatures such as us which makes this faith so wonderful and attractive@@SirLied
@@elijahnegron337 You misunderstand me entirely. I don't think you are inadequate for realizing that you will die one day and that you fear this. That's not something that you ever chose.
The cope is that the fear and existential dread death brings you will be remedied by a god described by middle eastern goat herders 2000 years ago.
You seem like a nice person and it pains me that the guilt you feel towards your own inadequacies burdens you so much that you feel the need for divine intervention to absolve you.
You aren't flawed or inadequate because of a man and a women in a garden eating fruit long ago, you are flawed and inadequate because you are a human being with a unique life circumstance.
The only forgiveness you need for that is from the people closest to you that you might have hurt as you continue to grow and learn as a person throughout the rest of your life.
This is literally the question I've been asking my entire life...
I believe in God because he took away my chronic depression. Eventhough life has gotten more difficult I'm blessed eternally in Christ.
I can tell you from experience that it feels just the same... having a friend die, and having a friend that you'll never be able to talk with again even though they're still alive. In a way it feels worse because they're still alive; yet you can never contact them again. It's frustrating.
No it doesn’t. I have a best friend of mine who we have no contact with anymore and we will with almost 100% certainty never speak or see eachother ever again (on bad terms and we have become drastically different people since then). It hurts me till this day that I have no contact with him but I know without a doubt it would absolutely crush me more if I found out today he passed away.
Grief transcends faith. My grandmother was the most religious woman you’ll ever meet and I am as well, but I miss her terribly and I cry for her often.
The fact she’s happy now doesn’t mean I am.
As far as Islam is concerned, nobody goes to heaven just by default. You can only pray both you and your loved one goes to heaven.
Hello Alex, trusting God that you would see this and to every one in the comment section. The consciousness that our beloved have gone to a better place does not invalidate the sadness when they die should in case death comes prematurely because believers strongly believe God didn’t just put us here on earth just so we can come back but rather to establish His will.
This concept is what summaries the purpose of a believer, so when a loved one dies before fulfilling purpose it hurts or death just comes as a major interruption, it hurts. That’s why the message of Apostle Paul in the Bible about resurrection closes with the fact that we should encourage ourselves with these word.