Yeah he ended up leaving a 3rd of his Gol's to die against the full 'toss army. Not sure what he was thinking there. I think he could have just fought it straight up. Maybe he was experimenting.
Zealot is such a strong unit. It’s such a Chad unit too. Think about it - the amount of stats, damage, the sound he makes, the big fucking braid, the gait as if he walks on stilts, the double attack with the powerful muscles. I love a zealot.
The hp/resource unit coefficient is 0.8 for marines, and drones and probes. It's 1 for ultras, and an impressive 1.4 for lings... but a whopping 1.6 for zealots.
Other Protoss units attack from a distance, like a bunch of COWARDS. Zealot is no coward, he charges into combat and punches his enemies right in their stupid face.
noob question how come they don't try to hide the carrier tech from the scan? I guess pros just figure it out anyway by looking at stuff like cybernetics core?
the idea was good, the hesitation was bad... rich got alot of stuff to defend after flash decided to return - had he countered instead he wouldve mopped the floor
@kevinf.2556 it's not good unless he instantly started producing siege and spamming turrets by his factories. Even if he manages to hold it and base trade successfully the return becomes a math test of gol vs carrier on the return.
yeah it seemed like he was in a good spot overall and would just win a straight up fight, not sure what the thought process was there. Then again we had perfect information and he did not so it's easy to criticize
Was that really over at 13:03? Obviously the supplies are bad but 12 of it are carriers that half built and can be killed by the group of goliaths in the toss main and tanks can trade very well vs goons. Pull every single scv to the toss main, start building turrets, a new cc, cancel production and float all your buildings. The toss still has 6 carriers but they wont have any money for interceptors and they will be forced to dive the cc over 11 goliaths and 11 turrets, which is what flash has/can afford at 13:00. Would've loved to see it play out anyway.
Protoss had 6 carriers at the end and 1000 minerals. Flash had like 8 goliaths total with his army. Toss can just turn with carriers and go clear the army from here. He had 12 goons on top of factories which is enough to finish the base. There are also 5 goons in the base left. They should kill some more goliaths.
@@anaremelam5998 There are 11 goliaths in toss natural. You can count them yourself at 12:32 and they are all still alive at 13:03. The 5 goons in toss base are facing 6 tanks, 11 gols and 1 vult on that part of the map at 13:03. They would maybe get a couple of gols if flash just a moved, but he could kill them without losing a single goliath. Yes the 12 goons in terrans base will clear that, but some buildings will survive if he floats them over some cliffs. Then toss either has to chase them down with carriers or race back to defend his non floating toss buildings. There are also lots of mines on the map for terran to play around. Not saying he would win but i don't think the situation is as bad as he thought. But that's easy for me to say when looking at the replay, and its just a ladder game anyway.
@@Lappmogel I think the nail in the coffin was carriers 7 and 8 in production + interceptor money. Flash has to cut through the nexus, probes, gateways, and units coming out of the gateways before he can get to the stargates. In a situation where both players' tech, production, and economy are completely reset, 8 carriers with interceptors beats everything Flash has.
@@msterforkshere are a handful of goons in toss base, over half the build time left on the carriers and one pylon to stop them. Toss is not getting carrier 7 and 8
@@Lappmogel Protoss is still mining, and there are 5 gateways still alive. Not really sure how it plays out, but if Flash rushes the pylon, I can see the 5 goons + 5 from gateways running over the 7 goliaths, 1 tank, 1 vulture force that's in the main. In any case, Flash is about to be on 0 economy, meaning Flash had to win with the force he had on the map. It just wasn't doable because he has to shut down the protoss economy, stop carriers 7 and 8 from coming out, and fight against any defenders trickling out of the gates. Then he has to fight the 6 carriers + ground army already on the map. Doesn't seem doable with the force he had.
Interesting decision by Flash, this game almost feels out of place. At the freeze frame Arty does at 15:32, Flash has a better army quality and has isolated all of Rich's army from reinforcements, but with Rich's army only 1 screen away from Flash's 2nd and his carriers hovering over his production, Flash continues the march to Rich's base to... seige push, something thats not known for it's speed. It make me wonder since this is just a ladder game if Flash was trying to test how much this would/wouldnt work. Thats not to even mention the amount of floating minerals at the pause. Yeah maybe no turrets would of been built but 10 half built turrets is more intimidatimg to a carrier than a 60hp scv. Very interesting game out of both players (i like seeing how well 2 base carrier works)
Yeah it was strange to see him only keep like 4 goliaths back fighting with the protoss army, then only having 2 siege tanks and a half full bunker for his base defense. I think this was just a screw up honestly. Splattering all those goons and zealots would have really hurt since his opponent was only on 2 base.
He should have just went toe to toe with the toss. He'd have whipped them out, then could have gone after the base. Not sure what good it does to trade so many buildings like that
I was wondering why pros don't use walkyries to counter mass carrier. Turns out interceptor don't take aoe damage, so the one valkyrie strength that would have given them an advantage is completely negated. I can't believe after all these years and many updates, blizzard never enabled aoe on interceptors.
I honestly think he should have brought his tanks and main army back and just start spamming goliaths and vultures to keep his tanks safe until he got the goons under control. He had enough factories to destroy that puny fleet. He could have even started making a small squad of wraiths to pincer attack the carriers so they couldn’t constantly run away.
Rich did JUST enough to defend flash push with the reaver shuttle and zeals - else it wouldve packed a way bigger punch! also we saw flash hesitate and return to base first - had he pulled the trigger, there wouldve been way less at home for rich to defend! but ultimately he let the carriers come too close due to lack of map vision - had he moved his army paralel to the carrier no chance for rich to cross with ground + carrier
When Flash brought his army back it looked he had a moment to pin the toss army against the wall and start picking off carriers. Maybe he didn't cause the carriers can float over terrain the and have the advantage of lack of vision? Weird situation that looked like it should've gone in Flash's favor.
Artosis, hi. why pro terrans use goliaths vs carriers - not wraiths with cloak upgrade ? 6-7 wraiths, past scan for detecting and destroy(snipe) observers, kills so much carrers very easy. What u think about it ? Thank you !
Starport units are squishy against Dragoon... and expensive and the build time is long and you cannot build 7 Starport against protoss 7 Factory Goliath Range and 3-2 upgrades is better 25 sec build time and kill the interceptors then move with tanks vs dragoons
I think having 5 wraiths with cloak can be very strong with the Goliath tank build against carriers. Snipe the Observer and it's a fast carrier take down
Thats expensive. Have seen some good wraith builds but I guess its easier to counter + you miss the mech upgrade synergy. You still have to scout + instantly kill the observer. Not that easy as your opponent is a pro too, the moment he sees the scout and pulls the observer away the wraiths are just gonna get massacred Or just have multiple observers in the area
@@justingagnier2871 Against Observer speed? idk Protoss apes just hit with Attack move in Dragoon Carriers + OBS Wraith cannot go in 1 volley of Goons you lost 1 wraith so just go Mech and switch up IF THEY DONT HAVE MINERALS FOR GOONS
In MMORPG terms this is like fighting a raid boss and there's a timer where you get wiped out if you take too long. That's a protoss going carriers vs terran.
that isnt the only counter to carriers. it is just the play that pros feel is the best because of how long carriers take to build. if you watch enough brood war you will see carriers get demolished by goliaths and wraiths. If carriers are the only build you use it will stop working very qucikly, its a good mix up.
So would Flash have won that if he had just kept his army together and sieged up in the middle, forcing Rich to fight in that choke to the left? Seems like it to me, though maybe Rich would've just gone home instead. Kind of a really interesting chaotic army movement situation! I hope we get to see speed shuttles against yesterday's build though
I disagree with your point that a decisive decision is always needed. Korean pros ‘wari-gari’ all the time ie go back and forth with their units, for various reasons. At any rate interesting game. Think it came down to Rich calling Flash’s bluff.
Yeah he ended up leaving a 3rd of his Gol's to die against the full 'toss army. Not sure what he was thinking there. I think he could have just fought it straight up. Maybe he was experimenting.
Firm decision, Unwavering decision, Resolute decision, Determined decision
Thanks for the daily flash uploads! So fun
16:16 arty analysis
15:22 scans for observer
13:43 ape impersonation
RT: the Nexus is 35 seconds late.
Me: Oh, it's not much of a differen--
RT: IT'S A BIG DIFFERENCE
Every game is a race, even 0.01% advantage in one aspect equals a win if there's no counteracting factor.
35 seconds is an eternity in a RTS though.
i mean you're f clueless if you don't think that's a big difference
>Flash messed up his initial SCV split
Help me doctor it's *HYPOTHERMIA*
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
Spoilers shall not pass
protoss wins
Spoilers shall not pass even within replies
@@JubilantJerry protoss wins
Zealot is such a strong unit. It’s such a Chad unit too. Think about it - the amount of stats, damage, the sound he makes, the big fucking braid, the gait as if he walks on stilts, the double attack with the powerful muscles. I love a zealot.
Blade Ape.
Gigachad zealots.
The hp/resource unit coefficient is 0.8 for marines, and drones and probes. It's 1 for ultras, and an impressive 1.4 for lings... but a whopping 1.6 for zealots.
Other Protoss units attack from a distance, like a bunch of COWARDS. Zealot is no coward, he charges into combat and punches his enemies right in their stupid face.
Flash won't make that same mistake twice.
Art this was one of best casts. Your breakdown and thoughts were 👌🏻
Dude 😂 “hold on. Ahh ahh ahh”
noob question how come they don't try to hide the carrier tech from the scan? I guess pros just figure it out anyway by looking at stuff like cybernetics core?
Around 12:00 I got severe chills.
When he turned around to engage, I think he was buying time for his 6 goliaths to finish producing
Base trade was a baaaaad idea.
the idea was good, the hesitation was bad... rich got alot of stuff to defend after flash decided to return - had he countered instead he wouldve mopped the floor
@kevinf.2556 it's not good unless he instantly started producing siege and spamming turrets by his factories. Even if he manages to hold it and base trade successfully the return becomes a math test of gol vs carrier on the return.
yeah it seemed like he was in a good spot overall and would just win a straight up fight, not sure what the thought process was there. Then again we had perfect information and he did not so it's easy to criticize
Was that really over at 13:03? Obviously the supplies are bad but 12 of it are carriers that half built and can be killed by the group of goliaths in the toss main and tanks can trade very well vs goons. Pull every single scv to the toss main, start building turrets, a new cc, cancel production and float all your buildings. The toss still has 6 carriers but they wont have any money for interceptors and they will be forced to dive the cc over 11 goliaths and 11 turrets, which is what flash has/can afford at 13:00.
Would've loved to see it play out anyway.
Protoss had 6 carriers at the end and 1000 minerals. Flash had like 8 goliaths total with his army. Toss can just turn with carriers and go clear the army from here. He had 12 goons on top of factories which is enough to finish the base. There are also 5 goons in the base left. They should kill some more goliaths.
@@anaremelam5998 There are 11 goliaths in toss natural. You can count them yourself at 12:32 and they are all still alive at 13:03. The 5 goons in toss base are facing 6 tanks, 11 gols and 1 vult on that part of the map at 13:03. They would maybe get a couple of gols if flash just a moved, but he could kill them without losing a single goliath.
Yes the 12 goons in terrans base will clear that, but some buildings will survive if he floats them over some cliffs. Then toss either has to chase them down with carriers or race back to defend his non floating toss buildings. There are also lots of mines on the map for terran to play around.
Not saying he would win but i don't think the situation is as bad as he thought. But that's easy for me to say when looking at the replay, and its just a ladder game anyway.
@@Lappmogel I think the nail in the coffin was carriers 7 and 8 in production + interceptor money. Flash has to cut through the nexus, probes, gateways, and units coming out of the gateways before he can get to the stargates. In a situation where both players' tech, production, and economy are completely reset, 8 carriers with interceptors beats everything Flash has.
@@msterforkshere are a handful of goons in toss base, over half the build time left on the carriers and one pylon to stop them. Toss is not getting carrier 7 and 8
@@Lappmogel Protoss is still mining, and there are 5 gateways still alive. Not really sure how it plays out, but if Flash rushes the pylon, I can see the 5 goons + 5 from gateways running over the 7 goliaths, 1 tank, 1 vulture force that's in the main.
In any case, Flash is about to be on 0 economy, meaning Flash had to win with the force he had on the map. It just wasn't doable because he has to shut down the protoss economy, stop carriers 7 and 8 from coming out, and fight against any defenders trickling out of the gates. Then he has to fight the 6 carriers + ground army already on the map. Doesn't seem doable with the force he had.
Sat down for food and thought "oh yeah time to see if flash can beat carriers twice.
Interesting decision by Flash, this game almost feels out of place. At the freeze frame Arty does at 15:32, Flash has a better army quality and has isolated all of Rich's army from reinforcements, but with Rich's army only 1 screen away from Flash's 2nd and his carriers hovering over his production, Flash continues the march to Rich's base to... seige push, something thats not known for it's speed. It make me wonder since this is just a ladder game if Flash was trying to test how much this would/wouldnt work. Thats not to even mention the amount of floating minerals at the pause. Yeah maybe no turrets would of been built but 10 half built turrets is more intimidatimg to a carrier than a 60hp scv. Very interesting game out of both players (i like seeing how well 2 base carrier works)
It was essentially a game of chicken. Flash blinked first by second guessing himself, and threw whatever forward position he established for himself.
Yeah it was strange to see him only keep like 4 goliaths back fighting with the protoss army, then only having 2 siege tanks and a half full bunker for his base defense. I think this was just a screw up honestly. Splattering all those goons and zealots would have really hurt since his opponent was only on 2 base.
If I were Flash, I would have 10 turrets already built.
Flash the man, the legend, the bonjwa.
He should have just went toe to toe with the toss. He'd have whipped them out, then could have gone after the base. Not sure what good it does to trade so many buildings like that
“I want to remember, it was one of the lesser terrans that played against snow”……. ….. so literally every Terran on earth besides flash.
And maybe Light :)
I was wondering why pros don't use walkyries to counter mass carrier. Turns out interceptor don't take aoe damage, so the one valkyrie strength that would have given them an advantage is completely negated.
I can't believe after all these years and many updates, blizzard never enabled aoe on interceptors.
Can't believe we see a game with mudman being as effective as it is
Would be cool to see some of the new ssl maps like deja vu
@13:44 aturtletosis comes out
I honestly think he should have brought his tanks and main army back and just start spamming goliaths and vultures to keep his tanks safe until he got the goons under control.
He had enough factories to destroy that puny fleet.
He could have even started making a small squad of wraiths to pincer attack the carriers so they couldn’t constantly run away.
Rich did JUST enough to defend flash push with the reaver shuttle and zeals - else it wouldve packed a way bigger punch!
also we saw flash hesitate and return to base first - had he pulled the trigger, there wouldve been way less at home for rich to defend!
but ultimately he let the carriers come too close due to lack of map vision - had he moved his army paralel to the carrier no chance for rich to cross with ground + carrier
When Flash brought his army back it looked he had a moment to pin the toss army against the wall and start picking off carriers. Maybe he didn't cause the carriers can float over terrain the and have the advantage of lack of vision? Weird situation that looked like it should've gone in Flash's favor.
I wonder if bio would develop into a legit strat if theh played on the sc2 evo mod with the better unit control
cool beans
Rich is a wild man. Full nuts on the table
damn that observer is hard to see
Dxracer
When we gonna have another Snow Map?
Hopefully never
On this one rich deserves credit for not wasting the army. 4 dragoons less and he wouldn't had enough for the counter attack or to stall flash
terran needs to learn how to ninja build an e-bay to suicide scout. zerg does this all the time.
For sure, one of the easier to implement ideas.
_*SC2_ Zerg.
Pretty sure he could have won with a more "committal" decision at the end. He could have crushed the army I think, and then it's easy win.
Artosis, hi. why pro terrans use goliaths vs carriers - not wraiths with cloak upgrade ? 6-7 wraiths, past scan for detecting and destroy(snipe) observers, kills so much carrers very easy. What u think about it ? Thank you !
Starport units are squishy against Dragoon... and expensive and the build time is long and you cannot build 7 Starport against protoss 7 Factory Goliath Range and 3-2 upgrades is better 25 sec build time and kill the interceptors then move with tanks vs dragoons
I think having 5 wraiths with cloak can be very strong with the Goliath tank build against carriers. Snipe the Observer and it's a fast carrier take down
@@justingagnier2871 i talk about it. Good strategy imho. And u don't need produce more than 1 starport. 5 wraith - near 2:30-2:45 time.
Thats expensive. Have seen some good wraith builds but I guess its easier to counter + you miss the mech upgrade synergy.
You still have to scout + instantly kill the observer. Not that easy as your opponent is a pro too, the moment he sees the scout and pulls the observer away the wraiths are just gonna get massacred
Or just have multiple observers in the area
@@justingagnier2871 Against Observer speed? idk Protoss apes just hit with Attack move in Dragoon Carriers + OBS Wraith cannot go in 1 volley of Goons you lost 1 wraith so just go Mech and switch up IF THEY DONT HAVE MINERALS FOR GOONS
guess we all getting kinda over it now
1:30 Hard counter me, bro
2 minutes of indecision from flash. He had that game but didnt handle the counter attack at all.
Why does Rich place his carrier tech in a position where the first scan would see it? He could have easily hid it inside his base
What’s for breakfast, mom?
Flash games, dearie
But we have flash games every morning!
Artosis vs |||||||||vv TvT when
Whats the name of this map please?
citadel
Would have won
For the algo
Flash would have won that.
Does it seem strange that the counter to one particular unit in SC is…
Don’t let them get that unit?
In MMORPG terms this is like fighting a raid boss and there's a timer where you get wiped out if you take too long. That's a protoss going carriers vs terran.
that isnt the only counter to carriers. it is just the play that pros feel is the best because of how long carriers take to build. if you watch enough brood war you will see carriers get demolished by goliaths and wraiths. If carriers are the only build you use it will stop working very qucikly, its a good mix up.
How come you never do any PvZ?
arty giving insights into terran builds no one gives a fuck about, but i still like watching just to experience his excitement vicariously
but can he do it thrice?
Or even frice
Comments
10:29 / 17:00
GG
ResidentSleeper
So would Flash have won that if he had just kept his army together and sieged up in the middle, forcing Rich to fight in that choke to the left? Seems like it to me, though maybe Rich would've just gone home instead. Kind of a really interesting chaotic army movement situation! I hope we get to see speed shuttles against yesterday's build though
Flash có tỉ lệ thắng thấp quá và hầu như thua mọi trận đấu khi đối đầu với protosss
It was a bad gamble, his army was bigger and could have stopped it
Flash would have won
gg
I hate the new YT layout
Game of chicken can be brutal to play, and Flash lost.
Eh, Flash wins again.
Flash wins, or does he? 😅
I disagree with your point that a decisive decision is always needed. Korean pros ‘wari-gari’ all the time ie go back and forth with their units, for various reasons.
At any rate interesting game. Think it came down to Rich calling Flash’s bluff.
R-TOE-SIS, Are sisters toes? toe-sister :3 😎
When will flash abandon upgrade terrain???
protoss wins
Ye Olde Antique Build
again this kind of shiet?