BC hard counter them. BUT BUT BUT! Protoss can build an arbiter. Terrans can counter either of those with science vessel or ghosts but that's just beyond their IQ.
excellent casting as always. anyway, when will somebody tell Flash to do what Arty did to solve brood war, which is to play Battle Asses for 20 hours straight?
he's playing under a barcode and didn't want to announce he was back initially - I don't think he WANTED people scrutinizing his games to this level, he just wants to derust and experiment in peace. I don't blame him for trying to do what worked for him in the old days. I think he is probably trying to minmax/limit test and see how much he has to change to be able to fit the new meta. Wish to see more TvZ out of him as well.
@@theSato i get that but being that I'm a terran player also, i understand what he is thinking and what he is trying to do, i tried literally everything to make that style work and it just doesn't work anymore
@samc9133 the reason is that pro-gamers are fucking dumb, mindless drones and just do the same tried and true things over and over without properly experimenting. Once a single one of them starts using ghosts and finds a breakthrough strategy, everyone else will just blindly follow as they always do. Royal almost made it happen but have up: shouldn't have, he was in the right path. This already happened with valks and queens, and it will happen with ghosts eventually.
@johnnyboy3563 just look at Jaedong play man, the skill required to play zvp like he does is insane , look at him FPVod it's actually crazy how good he is. Now tell me that zerg doesn't require more skill than toss.
You should also do Flash vs. Motive, I think in one of their games Motive even told Flash when and how to take a third expansion (as in, after going five factoroes and then either punishing Protoss for greed or expanding if Protoss isn't greedy)
When Blizzard was designing SC they probably thought that, in theory, Battlecruisers, Lockdown and all the Terran anti-air tech would allow them to deal with Carriers. In practice, we know how that turned out.
@@Winnetou17 I think so, too. Usually when you go 3 or 4 bases as T you have an excess of gas that you cant spend and adding a couple of ghosts spread around your expansions to be ready for use similarly to Vessels vs Arbs wont tax your APM or multitasking as much as most people think and managing to lockdown even 1 carrier is a huge win for the T, not to mention putting fear into the Protoss' heart.
@@Figgy20000 What?? You need 1 Goliath to kill a locked down Carrier... for half of the duration of the spell. Ghosts are not used to kill Carriers, but to disable them.
When the ASL qualifications start and do you think flash has a chance to get in final 24 based on speed you see him learning new meta. Also keep up the good streams Arti and I will be never sick of flash replays
You spoke about pros not reacting / thinking about what they see. I read a long time ago that StarCraft pros were having their brain scanned while playing and the “instinct” part of the brain lit up when they see tech changes etc so exactly it’s not them even thinking about it - they just do it ahaha awesome
As soon as you said the next day my head went to and the very next day he was home sweet home and then I realized your mind went there too I'm as weird as you are, nice
Really been hard for me to tell from these series if Flash is still just "catching up on the meta" or if Bisu and JD are just in really good shape right now. Tbh I'm hoping for the latter as Flash/Bisu/JD are my 3 favorite players at their respective races.
Does remaster still have the like 'maximum number of units on the screen' where valkyries and carriers sometimes dont shoot because theres too much already?
No, it's one of the few really great changes they made (they made very little), now units pretty much always work. Another really nice change is that everyone is on the same version, so a lot of desync issues you could get in the past are gone (mac vs pc)
Not a specific unit but if Zerg gets too much economy against T bio then they can just overrun them with defiler lurker ling or defiler ling ultra. Z can definitely get too big to fail. The matchup is still considered slightly in T favour though as getting to this point without dying and getting enough time to build enough drones is really really hard for Z.
instead of switching to mass goliaths, isn't it be better to have a mix of 1:3 goliaths/marines (or even higher) to kills interceptors/carriers? from what i remember back then, goliaths have never been effective against carriers (unless you can target them directly ofc) since their missiles may take time to hit interceptors while marines effectively hit them the second they shoot. also doesn't it takes time for carriers to acquire a new target? so giving them more targets to deal with reduce their average "dps" quite a bit. again i may be in the wrong since i haven't played for literally decades.
Hey Mr.Tosis Would you mind briefly explaining to someone like me who doesn't play the game but watches all your casts bcs I used to play it 20 years ago as a kid - wouldn't Valkyries rek Carriers cuz of their AOE? Given Flashs developed economy wouldn't Tank Valkyrie be a viable comp?
Hope someone can awnser this: Why is Golaith the Terran counter for Carriers and not Valks? Is it because Gols can attack ground as well? Or am I missing something
Goliaths fire a lot faster, have better range, cost less, and more importantly you don't suddenly need a bunch of new buildings (starports) in a filled up terran base. Valks are great vs zerg but that whole matchup has a ton of uses for starport units like Science Vessels for lurkers, Wraith harassment of bases, etc.
Valkyrie to splash observers and wraith to dive on the carriers (watching for high templars) while another wraith scouts for the next incoming observer. To beat carriers you have to be in a great economic position which is only usually achieved by a successful one base(has to kill natural expo). 1 rax pumping rines while getting mines with a machine shop and tank from that factory while getting vulture from 2nd factory. When you attack you have to watch for him to hide his army and try to flank you....this is his only chance to hold so to counter this you have to keep scouting like crazy with vulture and scvs because finding that army and isolating it before it can group with his reinforcement will give you a great advantage. You'll have to send all your units as soon as mines are almost ready and bring scvs too....don't let the scvs or vultures take even a single shot from the dragons without having most of your ranged units attacking at least one volley.
Gas cost, needs Covert Ops, needs Optic Implants for Ghost vision radius increase, needs Cloak AND needs Lockdown. Hope you have 4 bases worth of gas while consistently producing Factory units!😅
Honest question: wouldn't lockdown be good vs carriers? Doesn't feel like that much of an investment and feels like a near certain kill, if golliaths are in position, plus it takes a carriers' interceptors out of the fight for the duration.
I've thought the same, almost treating it like queens in TvZ. But unfortunately it's way too tech dependent and introduces bio into mech builds. I could see some bold gamer try it but from what we've seen before it sucks.
By the time he knew carriers were a problem . No way he had time to upgrade and build ghosts. Lockdown is so hard to pull off. You would need like 20 ghosts to pull that off I would guess. Cloak and range
I really wonder if cloaked wraiths and Goliath isn't ab sawer. Obviously getting observers are the issue. I deal with this carrier bs daily. Really fucking annoying. No skill win in my opinion.
I wish that Lockdown would not have been so seriously underestimated and not because it can lockdown Carriers to finish them off with any other follower but because the Terran could simply mass lockdown the Carriers then ignore then completely and move on to kill the Protoss ground army and then the production buildings -not probes- since the idea is to take advantage of the supply locked protoss.
To reply to this.. I think that the Terran could easily kill the Protoss that makes mass carriers with ghosts and mass vultures simply by locking down the carriers and then ignoring them completely to overwhelm the Protoss ground army which should be very weak agains mass vultures then aim for the protoss production buildings ignoring probes as well. It is a game of cat and mouse that practically forces the Protoss to reconsider going Carriers and be supply locked.
Ghosts with Lockdown take four minutes to create from the moment you finish your science facility. You will never ever in a million years be able to get ghosts rolling before carriers kill you, because for some asinine reason neither cloak nor lockdown are automatic spells and they take a combined 3 minutes to research (plus it takes like a full minute for Ghosts to gain Lockdown energy).
@@Armisael4321 I don't think that cloak is needed (specially when the carriers are surrounded by like 10 observers). And Ghosts can be recruited during Lockdown research to save energy. It really does not take that much time to make them (compared to Carriers production time). The issue with Ghost is that their lockdown range is not that big, their gas cost, their survivability and that they require a lot of micro for execution. But I still think that Terran players just haven't given them enough of a chance. With the combination of Scans to find carriers and Defense Matrix from Science Vessels, it should be completely possible to little by little eliminate the carriers. Lockdown lasts an eternity once it lands.
@@lavq7000 too expensive, too long setup (mass barracks + ghost academy + lockdown and optic implants research, waiting for energy), not mobile and die easily to any protoss ground units. Wraiths are better for hunting carriers.
Cast range is too short, Ghost is fragile (dies in 2-3 dragoon hits lol), Lockdown takes 4mins to research, and 2mins for Ghosts to have the energy to cast it.
@@reishiki8682just to make clear the numbers: covert ops addon + lockdown upgrade takes 1 and a half minutes to complete. Ghost can be produced during lockdown upgrade so in total you will only need to wait 2 and a half minutes to have a pair of ghosts with lockdown ready to fire. Compared to how long it takes for a single carrier to be created and fully loaded (almost 3minutes) , time is not usually the issue for ghosts. Ghost die to 4 shots of dragoons( 5 without upgrades from the protoss but in a real game toss will have some upgrades when ghosts come out).
@@bigmikeobama5314 too expensive, too long setup (mass barracks + covert ops + lockdown and optic implants research, waiting for energy), not mobile and die easily to any protoss ground units. Wraiths are better for hunting carriers.
Generally timing attack. Need to scout it earlier. It's tough if you're already behind, which Flash was, but if he scanned the carriers when he was around 165 supply he could have pushed sooner. It may not have worked in this exact game because Flash was behind but many many examples of him pushing and winning vs building carriers in this matchup. They don't even do that much when you only have three of them out.
its difficult as a zerg getting ready for carriers. as we have no scan. they just pop out of nowhere 8 of them, and head for the main where the tech iis. and the whole game becomes a freakshow in the protoss's favor. if you see them coming its winnable, but if their secretly made , almost impossible to stop.
Due to the high base armour of carriers (4) and valks attack being low damage per rocket (6), they barely do any damage to carriers with base upgrades. If the protoss is ahead in upgrades it's going to be even worse.
valkyries do not deal splash to interceptors, so valks are actually not good at clearing interceptors. If you look at the carriers in that game, they were not clumped, so you would not deal splash to the carrier bodies either. Valkyries have good DPS on air, but it is really in small attacks of 6 damage. Carriers have base 4 armor. The carriers might have armor upgrade, but it unlikely terran will have air to air damage upgrade. So each valkyrie shot usually deals 1 damage to the carrier body. So valkyries cn take the shield out quick, but really don't damage the carrier body much. Wraith are really paper planes, they die almost immediately once they take damage (and terran wouldn't have air armor). So you have to rely on cloak to make wraith work against carrier. And it you look at this game, Bisu was always keeping about 6 observers with the carrier group. So to make it work you have to scan in to find the obs, snipe all the observers and then moving shot against the carrier. It CAN work, but if you miss 1 observer, then your control group of wraith evaporate for essentially no damage. So you do see people making a valkyrie to add DPS to shield in their comp. You also do see a group of wraith, but quite rarely becasue they don't work that well at high level.
In a TvP, would a Starport with only one Wraith actually be a good counter against a Reaver+Shuttle push? Most of the pro Protoss players I see are going for Reaver.
That was a good match, but, bummer to see how many times Flash had chances to lay fire into the carriers, but he didn't target his Goliaths. Lots of times the gols were basically in range and they were shooting interceptors. Somebody get this man some adderall so he can achieve his potential again lol
@@canadianbakn Good point, but you have to be paying extra attention for that. Not something you can notice at a glance and definitely not what Artosis was pointing at.
You notice that swarm of observers what flying arround carriers? There was one match when against carriers terran used scan and kill observers. But there was just max 4 carriers and it was keepet by terran (invisbible guys in airplanes) on that low number, and with carriers was always only one max two observers. So protoss didnt make snowball carriers effect. Plus in every base was few photocanons, so carriers had few safespots.
@@vklymenko Honestly yes, dont let for protoss make magical number of carriers. Meybe not only good idea, but the most effective. Protoss need time for that. So its easier kiled him when he have only one carrier than making perfect idea when he had 6 and more carriers.
The answer to how you beat carriers, is don't lose to DT. Just because you see a unit with your eyes, doesn't mean it was th reason you lost. This must also be the reason people think banelings are good. No, you lost not to banes but by getting behind by 2 mining bases.
So can someone explain me why won't Terrans just get half a fleet of Valkyries with air attack 1, 2 to counter the Carrier switch when they see it? I'd imagine a fleet of Valks would devastate Interceptors and defang Carriers in the progress. It's not even like it's bigger investment than what the Toss is doing so it cannot be issue of money.
valks splash damage does not work against interceptors. against carriers they have high base armour and a bucket of hit points and are ahead on upgrades. still would be possible but when you add psi storm against a clumped up valk ball it doesnt work out. Valks are terrible at dodging storm once they attack.
In late-game TvPs they get to 60-80 workers, stop making them, and then never remake as the workers die off. In this match it was justifiable since no bases but other times it gets down to like 20 vs 15 workers and hero unit DT tactics where it seems like it would've been easier for one player to set aside some of their 10k bank for a couple more workers in the lategame. I wonder if it's just pros getting to 20m and wanting the game to end from that point on?
I seriously want to see a pro terran player show us mere mortals how to deal with carriers. My go to solution had always been ghost lockdown + goliath spam and i was hoping to see that this match, but alas. My micro sux tho, so getting a squad of ghosts at full upgrade and energy to double lockdown carriers was pretty impossible for me. The best i could do out of 12 was probably lockdown like 4, maybe 6 if i got lucky
Carriers walk into a bar. There is no counter.
BC hard counter them. BUT BUT BUT! Protoss can build an arbiter. Terrans can counter either of those with science vessel or ghosts but that's just beyond their IQ.
@@AntiDoctor-cx2jd bc dont really counter carriers and protoss can hard counter bc ez
6:10 "I see what's on the screen with my eyes, but it doesn't register."
That's how I feel watching any of these pros.
Often feel same.
Flash was getting vessels and emp so he must have thought that the stargate was for arbiters
12:35 not an entirely serious thought but I'd watch 10 minutes of Artosis just rating every psi storm
my good sir, might you be interested in some klazart casts?
22 day flash streak
Arty flashed us 22 days in a row
The month of flash is upon us
It is a era of life
Keep counting, this ain't stopping :○
Not enough!
11:51 "when you are in the 60s you feel good"
*Happy Beatles noises coming from Flash's SVCs*
excellent casting as always. anyway, when will somebody tell Flash to do what Arty did to solve brood war, which is to play Battle Asses for 20 hours straight?
Pretty sure he didn’t see the robo cause he didn’t place it until the scv was chased out and killed
10:35 The timing of the scan here to spot the shuttles as they're flying in-route to his base just shows why Flash is the GOAT.
flash is so stubborn lol he is literally determined to make the build work
he's playing under a barcode and didn't want to announce he was back initially - I don't think he WANTED people scrutinizing his games to this level, he just wants to derust and experiment in peace. I don't blame him for trying to do what worked for him in the old days. I think he is probably trying to minmax/limit test and see how much he has to change to be able to fit the new meta.
Wish to see more TvZ out of him as well.
@@theSato i get that but being that I'm a terran player also, i understand what he is thinking and what he is trying to do, i tried literally everything to make that style work and it just doesn't work anymore
@@theSatoare you Sato that makes UMS StarCraft maps?
I hear Terran has a unit that can LockDown Protoss units. Never see it though..
Usually there's a reason why.
And some air fighting planes that counter others air units...
@samc9133 the reason is that pro-gamers are fucking dumb, mindless drones and just do the same tried and true things over and over without properly experimenting.
Once a single one of them starts using ghosts and finds a breakthrough strategy, everyone else will just blindly follow as they always do. Royal almost made it happen but have up: shouldn't have, he was in the right path.
This already happened with valks and queens, and it will happen with ghosts eventually.
Artosis actually used the lockdown ability multiple times and it works well.
@@tomaspineiro9767
Yes. To the slow, low skill protoss player mind, wraiths actually counter carriers.
I don't know about you guys, but I am getting chills right now 😂😂😂
"A murder of Carriers" was shrewd.
Your passion for the game is contagious, I'm enjoying these daily casts. :-)
Another potential game-breaking thing is Snow's reavers. Imagine if every protoss could dodge tank hits and drag mines with a shuttle like Snow.
don't worry I heard Protoss players have no skill and they just mass gateways and run over the enemy, they won't be able to learn things like "micro"
Protoss are so op its ridiculous
@@ripperthecrooks6428 na, that's a noob statement
@johnnyboy3563 just look at Jaedong play man, the skill required to play zvp like he does is insane , look at him FPVod it's actually crazy how good he is. Now tell me that zerg doesn't require more skill than toss.
@ripperthecrooks6428 The same can be said about Snow. Apm isn't the only indication of skill. If protoss were so OP, everyone would play it.
You should also do Flash vs. Motive, I think in one of their games Motive even told Flash when and how to take a third expansion (as in, after going five factoroes and then either punishing Protoss for greed or expanding if Protoss isn't greedy)
dude this novelty of Flash publicly completing the tutorial on how to play modern bw terran will never wear off for me
The Motive series was very interesting for sure
Flash doesn't need Motive, he's God
@@thalanoth *looks at Motove thrashing him with no game won by Flash* yeah, sure buddy.
@@thalanothA true master will take advice from anywhere so long as it’s useful. The willingness to learn is what makes Flash a God.
Awesome game, thanks for casting Arty!
Bottom right base held off so much with cannons and storm in the choke. Was cool to see shuttles going there too. Great game!
Flash would of casted even more flash games
When Blizzard was designing SC they probably thought that, in theory, Battlecruisers, Lockdown and all the Terran anti-air tech would allow them to deal with Carriers. In practice, we know how that turned out.
You're right. I still think that there is a chance for lockdown to become a thing against carriers too.
@@Winnetou17 I think so, too. Usually when you go 3 or 4 bases as T you have an excess of gas that you cant spend and adding a couple of ghosts spread around your expansions to be ready for use similarly to Vessels vs Arbs wont tax your APM or multitasking as much as most people think and managing to lockdown even 1 carrier is a huge win for the T, not to mention putting fear into the Protoss' heart.
indeed they are very capable of handling carriers. But people insist goliaths
Ghosts do zero damage to carriers. Even if they lock em down its a complete waste of gas
@@Figgy20000 What?? You need 1 Goliath to kill a locked down Carrier... for half of the duration of the spell. Ghosts are not used to kill Carriers, but to disable them.
First, your videos were fun. Now I’m addicted
well played from Bisu. Bisu is fire
I just hope his level now is better than in the last ASL dude, gosh, the way he fumbled against Snow was dismal.
Thank you for the much content Artois !! much
When the ASL qualifications start and do you think flash has a chance to get in final 24 based on speed you see him learning new meta. Also keep up the good streams Arti and I will be never sick of flash replays
Great positioning this game throughout the map. Like a battlegrid on a massive tabletop game
You could scout with 2 SCV who attack/fight probe if it comes to close and repair each other. Basically impossible to kill with a probe
You spoke about pros not reacting / thinking about what they see. I read a long time ago that StarCraft pros were having their brain scanned while playing and the “instinct” part of the brain lit up when they see tech changes etc so exactly it’s not them even thinking about it - they just do it ahaha awesome
As soon as you said the next day my head went to and the very next day he was home sweet home and then I realized your mind went there too I'm as weird as you are, nice
Thanks for casting! If only Flash used dropships against 5 o clock....
Can anyone tell me how much the armor upgrades help the Terran in TvP?
This is now flash's channel.
Gracias por el video.
Really been hard for me to tell from these series if Flash is still just "catching up on the meta" or if Bisu and JD are just in really good shape right now. Tbh I'm hoping for the latter as Flash/Bisu/JD are my 3 favorite players at their respective races.
what a match
Wouldn't keeping a few valkyries on top of your goliaths help a lot against the interceptors?
valks splash damage does not work against interceptors
@@sebastiantru4702 Wow. Between that and the worker micro thing RT talked about I dunno how anyone can call this game balanced with a straight face
Does remaster still have the like 'maximum number of units on the screen' where valkyries and carriers sometimes dont shoot because theres too much already?
No, it's one of the few really great changes they made (they made very little), now units pretty much always work. Another really nice change is that everyone is on the same version, so a lot of desync issues you could get in the past are gone (mac vs pc)
battlenet is still terribly laggy and all though, lol.
that was a sick game
Would mass wraith work against mass carriers? I'm thinking at it through the perspective of SC2 like using vikings
is there any other unit in the game that when you see large group of, it means you're pretty much already dead?
Not a specific unit but if Zerg gets too much economy against T bio then they can just overrun them with defiler lurker ling or defiler ling ultra. Z can definitely get too big to fail. The matchup is still considered slightly in T favour though as getting to this point without dying and getting enough time to build enough drones is really really hard for Z.
In these situations, you usually don't have much of a choice except to just attack and it becomes a race to see who dies first 😂
@10:40 How did flash know to bring everything back? Was there a god scan at 9 o clock that you missed???
16:32 not to mention like 2000 minerals and gas tied up in the production tab
Watching the 2 latest Flash vs Bisu games made me forget that Ghosts existed. Great stuff though.
This breakfast I was eating good with this game 👍
the flash came back, the very next day
instead of switching to mass goliaths, isn't it be better to have a mix of 1:3 goliaths/marines (or even higher) to kills interceptors/carriers?
from what i remember back then, goliaths have never been effective against carriers (unless you can target them directly ofc) since their missiles may take time to hit interceptors while marines effectively hit them the second they shoot. also doesn't it takes time for carriers to acquire a new target? so giving them more targets to deal with reduce their average "dps" quite a bit. again i may be in the wrong since i haven't played for literally decades.
man those dt's were a menace
Flash always gets wrecked by his tanks being too clumped during the big engagements.
Leta! Say his name @Artosis! He was so fun to watch, totally bananas
Hey Mr.Tosis
Would you mind briefly explaining to someone like me who doesn't play the game but watches all your casts bcs I used to play it 20 years ago as a kid - wouldn't Valkyries rek Carriers cuz of their AOE? Given Flashs developed economy wouldn't Tank Valkyrie be a viable comp?
Valks don’t deal splash damage to interceptors
"The very next day..." xD
Hope someone can awnser this:
Why is Golaith the Terran counter for Carriers and not Valks? Is it because Gols can attack ground as well? Or am I missing something
Goliaths fire a lot faster, have better range, cost less, and more importantly you don't suddenly need a bunch of new buildings (starports) in a filled up terran base. Valks are great vs zerg but that whole matchup has a ton of uses for starport units like Science Vessels for lurkers, Wraith harassment of bases, etc.
Valkyries don’t deal splash damage to interceptors
Flash is certainly playing catching up everyday. Already approaching Bisu level.
Valkyrie to splash observers and wraith to dive on the carriers (watching for high templars) while another wraith scouts for the next incoming observer. To beat carriers you have to be in a great economic position which is only usually achieved by a successful one base(has to kill natural expo). 1 rax pumping rines while getting mines with a machine shop and tank from that factory while getting vulture from 2nd factory. When you attack you have to watch for him to hide his army and try to flank you....this is his only chance to hold so to counter this you have to keep scouting like crazy with vulture and scvs because finding that army and isolating it before it can group with his reinforcement will give you a great advantage. You'll have to send all your units as soon as mines are almost ready and bring scvs too....don't let the scvs or vultures take even a single shot from the dragons without having most of your ranged units attacking at least one volley.
I came here for Flash. GGs!
Counter to scouting block - Proxy Eng-bay fly over.
4:20 when terran will learn to properly repair their units with SCV is also scary
Does anyone know why ghosts aren't used to counter carriers?
Gas cost, needs Covert Ops, needs Optic Implants for Ghost vision radius increase, needs Cloak AND needs Lockdown.
Hope you have 4 bases worth of gas while consistently producing Factory units!😅
Range is too short on lockdown, and upgrade investment is too heavy
Honest question: wouldn't lockdown be good vs carriers? Doesn't feel like that much of an investment and feels like a near certain kill, if golliaths are in position, plus it takes a carriers' interceptors out of the fight for the duration.
I've thought the same, almost treating it like queens in TvZ. But unfortunately it's way too tech dependent and introduces bio into mech builds. I could see some bold gamer try it but from what we've seen before it sucks.
Lockdown range is shit. You literally will never catch them.
@@lexor24 Don't know about "too tech dependent" you need a single barracks, maybe two, one add-on to a building you already have and one upgrade.
By the time he knew carriers were a problem . No way he had time to upgrade and build ghosts. Lockdown is so hard to pull off. You would need like 20 ghosts to pull that off I would guess. Cloak and range
I really wonder if cloaked wraiths and Goliath isn't ab sawer. Obviously getting observers are the issue. I deal with this carrier bs daily. Really fucking annoying. No skill win in my opinion.
0:48 are you thinking of the Duck Song lol
How do you beat carriers?
If only terran had some kind of capital ship with a powerfull long range attack...
Arbiter : So anyway, i put them in ice for a long while.
@@reishiki8682 fvck the ice, recall all carriers into maine base of terran. No starports no capital ship with a powerfull something something.
I wish that Lockdown would not have been so seriously underestimated and not because it can lockdown Carriers to finish them off with any other follower but because the Terran could simply mass lockdown the Carriers then ignore then completely and move on to kill the Protoss ground army and then the production buildings -not probes- since the idea is to take advantage of the supply locked protoss.
To reply to this.. I think that the Terran could easily kill the Protoss that makes mass carriers with ghosts and mass vultures simply by locking down the carriers and then ignoring them completely to overwhelm the Protoss ground army which should be very weak agains mass vultures then aim for the protoss production buildings ignoring probes as well. It is a game of cat and mouse that practically forces the Protoss to reconsider going Carriers and be supply locked.
Ghost with lockdown is the most underutilized spells ever, it would have been perfect to use versus the Carriers.
Ghosts with Lockdown take four minutes to create from the moment you finish your science facility. You will never ever in a million years be able to get ghosts rolling before carriers kill you, because for some asinine reason neither cloak nor lockdown are automatic spells and they take a combined 3 minutes to research (plus it takes like a full minute for Ghosts to gain Lockdown energy).
@@Armisael4321 I don't think that cloak is needed (specially when the carriers are surrounded by like 10 observers).
And Ghosts can be recruited during Lockdown research to save energy. It really does not take that much time to make them (compared to Carriers production time).
The issue with Ghost is that their lockdown range is not that big, their gas cost, their survivability and that they require a lot of micro for execution. But I still think that Terran players just haven't given them enough of a chance. With the combination of Scans to find carriers and Defense Matrix from Science Vessels, it should be completely possible to little by little eliminate the carriers. Lockdown lasts an eternity once it lands.
Lockdown has the casting range of a Marine with no range upgrade lol.
@@reishiki8682 that's not true. Lockdown has the same range as Science Vessels EMP and Goliaths air attack range with their upgrade.
@@lavq7000 too expensive, too long setup (mass barracks + ghost academy + lockdown and optic implants research, waiting for energy), not mobile and die easily to any protoss ground units. Wraiths are better for hunting carriers.
I'm a noob, would ghost lockdown be able to deal with carriers?
Cast range is too short, Ghost is fragile (dies in 2-3 dragoon hits lol), Lockdown takes 4mins to research, and 2mins for Ghosts to have the energy to cast it.
@@reishiki8682got it. Thank you
@@reishiki8682just to make clear the numbers: covert ops addon + lockdown upgrade takes 1 and a half minutes to complete.
Ghost can be produced during lockdown upgrade so in total you will only need to wait 2 and a half minutes to have a pair of ghosts with lockdown ready to fire. Compared to how long it takes for a single carrier to be created and fully loaded (almost 3minutes) , time is not usually the issue for ghosts.
Ghost die to 4 shots of dragoons( 5 without upgrades from the protoss but in a real game toss will have some upgrades when ghosts come out).
What can Terran do against such reckless Protoss Carrier play?
ghosts with lockdown
@@bigmikeobama5314 Ah, that explains why terran lost then, Flash would have made ghosts with lockdown
@@phoenixlich idk about ghosts but in this case flash didnt even see the carriers in time so
@@bigmikeobama5314 too expensive, too long setup (mass barracks + covert ops + lockdown and optic implants research, waiting for energy), not mobile and die easily to any protoss ground units. Wraiths are better for hunting carriers.
Generally timing attack. Need to scout it earlier. It's tough if you're already behind, which Flash was, but if he scanned the carriers when he was around 165 supply he could have pushed sooner. It may not have worked in this exact game because Flash was behind but many many examples of him pushing and winning vs building carriers in this matchup. They don't even do that much when you only have three of them out.
its difficult as a zerg getting ready for carriers. as we have no scan. they just pop out of nowhere 8 of them, and head for the main where the tech iis. and the whole game becomes a freakshow in the protoss's favor. if you see them coming its winnable, but if their secretly made , almost impossible to stop.
Love is the answer for everything !
Wouldnt a group of 10-12 valkyries melt a whole pack of carriers in seconds? Or just a group of cloaked wraiths?
Due to the high base armour of carriers (4) and valks attack being low damage per rocket (6), they barely do any damage to carriers with base upgrades. If the protoss is ahead in upgrades it's going to be even worse.
Cloaked wraiths would do the job though.
valkyries do not deal splash to interceptors, so valks are actually not good at clearing interceptors. If you look at the carriers in that game, they were not clumped, so you would not deal splash to the carrier bodies either.
Valkyries have good DPS on air, but it is really in small attacks of 6 damage. Carriers have base 4 armor. The carriers might have armor upgrade, but it unlikely terran will have air to air damage upgrade. So each valkyrie shot usually deals 1 damage to the carrier body. So valkyries cn take the shield out quick, but really don't damage the carrier body much.
Wraith are really paper planes, they die almost immediately once they take damage (and terran wouldn't have air armor). So you have to rely on cloak to make wraith work against carrier. And it you look at this game, Bisu was always keeping about 6 observers with the carrier group. So to make it work you have to scan in to find the obs, snipe all the observers and then moving shot against the carrier. It CAN work, but if you miss 1 observer, then your control group of wraith evaporate for essentially no damage.
So you do see people making a valkyrie to add DPS to shield in their comp. You also do see a group of wraith, but quite rarely becasue they don't work that well at high level.
unfortunately it's quite the opposite. The only solution are ghosts.
@@valentinomanontroppo4675 arent ghoat too slow to come out to be useful?
In a TvP, would a Starport with only one Wraith actually be a good counter against a Reaver+Shuttle push? Most of the pro Protoss players I see are going for Reaver.
Ahh Artosis, you have arrived.
16:59 "That's when the game just becomes out of control. [...] Control tower"
Four cybernetics cores?
Well I might be noob, but why dont use ghost and locks aganst Carriers? :>
just use Banshee's and focus observatory with everything soon as you break that protoss only got cannons for vision.
this is brood war though? unless you goofin
The map is a grid of squares, why do you call them hexes?
That was a good match, but, bummer to see how many times Flash had chances to lay fire into the carriers, but he didn't target his Goliaths. Lots of times the gols were basically in range and they were shooting interceptors.
Somebody get this man some adderall so he can achieve his potential again lol
Mass carrier is the same as old infestor broodlord
Bisu looks on fire, maybe next asl will finally be his.
Nah, he'll get cooked by zergs
Counter to carriers? TANKS!
1 stargate could have meant arbiters right?
The spinning core is what Flash could have noticed and was within the scan bubble. That signals air weapons or armor.
@@canadianbakn Good point, but you have to be paying extra attention for that. Not something you can notice at a glance and definitely not what Artosis was pointing at.
Instead of goliaphs isn’t better to make some wraiths, turn them invisible and constantly scan and kill observers around carriers?
You notice that swarm of observers what flying arround carriers? There was one match when against carriers terran used scan and kill observers. But there was just max 4 carriers and it was keepet by terran (invisbible guys in airplanes) on that low number, and with carriers was always only one max two observers. So protoss didnt make snowball carriers effect. Plus in every base was few photocanons, so carriers had few safespots.
@@prasaite so the only good idea in this case is just not let him make so many carriers?
@@vklymenko Honestly yes, dont let for protoss make magical number of carriers. Meybe not only good idea, but the most effective. Protoss need time for that. So its easier kiled him when he have only one carrier than making perfect idea when he had 6 and more carriers.
...Did RT make a ducksong reference..?
I believe he did!
Flash did not see the robo, he just assumed it because it's meta.
OH WOW ! Flash! I haven't seen flash video on Ur channel for A WHILE now .... ;p
The answer to how you beat carriers, is don't lose to DT. Just because you see a unit with your eyes, doesn't mean it was th reason you lost. This must also be the reason people think banelings are good. No, you lost not to banes but by getting behind by 2 mining bases.
@artosiscasts I made a custom map with a carrier hard counter. It's the only video on my channel.
when is Artosis gonna drop his compendium of Starcraft childrens stories?
Flash - " Carriers OP"
Why don't terrans use yamato cannon vs carrier?
Was that the cat came back? Sounds like the mini-tosises are being exposed to some good Canadian culture 😄
Answer make Ghost atleast x4-5 and use Lockdown. There is no way they right click seeing ghosts near walking whole army.
Valk + emp?
So can someone explain me why won't Terrans just get half a fleet of Valkyries with air attack 1, 2 to counter the Carrier switch when they see it? I'd imagine a fleet of Valks would devastate Interceptors and defang Carriers in the progress. It's not even like it's bigger investment than what the Toss is doing so it cannot be issue of money.
valks splash damage does not work against interceptors. against carriers they have high base armour and a bucket of hit points and are ahead on upgrades. still would be possible but when you add psi storm against a clumped up valk ball it doesnt work out. Valks are terrible at dodging storm once they attack.
Why not try to add some valkyries in the mix to deal with carriers?
Carriers have 4 base armor. If you don't know why that makes valks useless please learn the game
Valkyries don’t deal splash damage to interceptors
In late-game TvPs they get to 60-80 workers, stop making them, and then never remake as the workers die off. In this match it was justifiable since no bases but other times it gets down to like 20 vs 15 workers and hero unit DT tactics where it seems like it would've been easier for one player to set aside some of their 10k bank for a couple more workers in the lategame. I wonder if it's just pros getting to 20m and wanting the game to end from that point on?
why not use valkaries against carriers?
I seriously want to see a pro terran player show us mere mortals how to deal with carriers.
My go to solution had always been ghost lockdown + goliath spam and i was hoping to see that this match, but alas.
My micro sux tho, so getting a squad of ghosts at full upgrade and energy to double lockdown carriers was pretty impossible for me. The best i could do out of 12 was probably lockdown like 4, maybe 6 if i got lucky
no ghost?
To be fair, it was 3 base vs. 5 then. 6 base for like five minutes. Terran almost never recovers from that, regardless of type of protoss army
if he had realized the 2 hero DTs at the end this might have been close but carriers in that supply is 1 in 100 for Terran to beat. GGs boys.