BC hard counter them. BUT BUT BUT! Protoss can build an arbiter. Terrans can counter either of those with science vessel or ghosts but that's just beyond their IQ.
excellent casting as always. anyway, when will somebody tell Flash to do what Arty did to solve brood war, which is to play Battle Asses for 20 hours straight?
@samc9133 the reason is that pro-gamers are fucking dumb, mindless drones and just do the same tried and true things over and over without properly experimenting. Once a single one of them starts using ghosts and finds a breakthrough strategy, everyone else will just blindly follow as they always do. Royal almost made it happen but have up: shouldn't have, he was in the right path. This already happened with valks and queens, and it will happen with ghosts eventually.
You should also do Flash vs. Motive, I think in one of their games Motive even told Flash when and how to take a third expansion (as in, after going five factoroes and then either punishing Protoss for greed or expanding if Protoss isn't greedy)
he's playing under a barcode and didn't want to announce he was back initially - I don't think he WANTED people scrutinizing his games to this level, he just wants to derust and experiment in peace. I don't blame him for trying to do what worked for him in the old days. I think he is probably trying to minmax/limit test and see how much he has to change to be able to fit the new meta. Wish to see more TvZ out of him as well.
@@theSato i get that but being that I'm a terran player also, i understand what he is thinking and what he is trying to do, i tried literally everything to make that style work and it just doesn't work anymore
You spoke about pros not reacting / thinking about what they see. I read a long time ago that StarCraft pros were having their brain scanned while playing and the “instinct” part of the brain lit up when they see tech changes etc so exactly it’s not them even thinking about it - they just do it ahaha awesome
@johnnyboy3563 just look at Jaedong play man, the skill required to play zvp like he does is insane , look at him FPVod it's actually crazy how good he is. Now tell me that zerg doesn't require more skill than toss.
When the ASL qualifications start and do you think flash has a chance to get in final 24 based on speed you see him learning new meta. Also keep up the good streams Arti and I will be never sick of flash replays
As soon as you said the next day my head went to and the very next day he was home sweet home and then I realized your mind went there too I'm as weird as you are, nice
Really been hard for me to tell from these series if Flash is still just "catching up on the meta" or if Bisu and JD are just in really good shape right now. Tbh I'm hoping for the latter as Flash/Bisu/JD are my 3 favorite players at their respective races.
Valkyrie to splash observers and wraith to dive on the carriers (watching for high templars) while another wraith scouts for the next incoming observer. To beat carriers you have to be in a great economic position which is only usually achieved by a successful one base(has to kill natural expo). 1 rax pumping rines while getting mines with a machine shop and tank from that factory while getting vulture from 2nd factory. When you attack you have to watch for him to hide his army and try to flank you....this is his only chance to hold so to counter this you have to keep scouting like crazy with vulture and scvs because finding that army and isolating it before it can group with his reinforcement will give you a great advantage. You'll have to send all your units as soon as mines are almost ready and bring scvs too....don't let the scvs or vultures take even a single shot from the dragons without having most of your ranged units attacking at least one volley.
Ghosts with Lockdown take four minutes to create from the moment you finish your science facility. You will never ever in a million years be able to get ghosts rolling before carriers kill you, because for some asinine reason neither cloak nor lockdown are automatic spells and they take a combined 3 minutes to research (plus it takes like a full minute for Ghosts to gain Lockdown energy).
@@Armisael4321 I don't think that cloak is needed (specially when the carriers are surrounded by like 10 observers). And Ghosts can be recruited during Lockdown research to save energy. It really does not take that much time to make them (compared to Carriers production time). The issue with Ghost is that their lockdown range is not that big, their gas cost, their survivability and that they require a lot of micro for execution. But I still think that Terran players just haven't given them enough of a chance. With the combination of Scans to find carriers and Defense Matrix from Science Vessels, it should be completely possible to little by little eliminate the carriers. Lockdown lasts an eternity once it lands.
@@lavq7000 too expensive, too long setup (mass barracks + ghost academy + lockdown and optic implants research, waiting for energy), not mobile and die easily to any protoss ground units. Wraiths are better for hunting carriers.
I'd love to see a different strategy for late game carriers from Terran for once. Terrans need to keep an additional threat out on the field alongside their goliaths to punish the carriers. Spamming goliath is cool and all, but Terrans need to think about their trump card against carriers (killing them) if they decide to levitate over terrain Terran can't access very well. If we're not talking about money restraints then there could be some options like a small group of wraiths (countered by obs), a couple long range BCs using yamato (stasis countered), ghost lockdown (lack of range), EMP from science vessel (seen here by flash). Idc if pro players think that it's inefficient to deploy some of these units for counters. There just needs to be a big threat put into the goliath spam in case protoss does decide to commit and you catch them off guard. You can see DTs from protoss put into battle when carriers are attacking, why can't Terran do something similar?
The reason it's easy for protoss to throw DT's into the mix is because they already have a bunch of gates and is same tech as high temps. For terran to get ghosts would be a bunch of extra tech and research, BC's also require extra tech and more starport's which is harder to do in practical sense because factories take up so much space, there's no room for much else.
@@Wysaw Yeah, I'm aware of the tech tree differences. I was trying to draw a parallel for unit mixture to throw the opponent off. Part of me is tired of seeing terrans lose to carrier late game, and would love to see some counter play that isn't goliath spam with the occasional emp.
@@SuPeRbOoMfAn It just doesn't work in reality though doing that. It's like Arty say's, best counter to mass carriers is seeing it coming and stopping it getting that far. Makes sense in my mind, if you let your opponent mass a deadly unit up then you lose.
That was a good match, but, bummer to see how many times Flash had chances to lay fire into the carriers, but he didn't target his Goliaths. Lots of times the gols were basically in range and they were shooting interceptors. Somebody get this man some adderall so he can achieve his potential again lol
I seriously want to see a pro terran player show us mere mortals how to deal with carriers. My go to solution had always been ghost lockdown + goliath spam and i was hoping to see that this match, but alas. My micro sux tho, so getting a squad of ghosts at full upgrade and energy to double lockdown carriers was pretty impossible for me. The best i could do out of 12 was probably lockdown like 4, maybe 6 if i got lucky
When Blizzard was designing SC they probably thought that, in theory, Battlecruisers, Lockdown and all the Terran anti-air tech would allow them to deal with Carriers. In practice, we know how that turned out.
@@Winnetou17 I think so, too. Usually when you go 3 or 4 bases as T you have an excess of gas that you cant spend and adding a couple of ghosts spread around your expansions to be ready for use similarly to Vessels vs Arbs wont tax your APM or multitasking as much as most people think and managing to lockdown even 1 carrier is a huge win for the T, not to mention putting fear into the Protoss' heart.
@@Figgy20000 What?? You need 1 Goliath to kill a locked down Carrier... for half of the duration of the spell. Ghosts are not used to kill Carriers, but to disable them.
instead of switching to mass goliaths, isn't it be better to have a mix of 1:3 goliaths/marines (or even higher) to kills interceptors/carriers? from what i remember back then, goliaths have never been effective against carriers (unless you can target them directly ofc) since their missiles may take time to hit interceptors while marines effectively hit them the second they shoot. also doesn't it takes time for carriers to acquire a new target? so giving them more targets to deal with reduce their average "dps" quite a bit. again i may be in the wrong since i haven't played for literally decades.
The answer to how you beat carriers, is don't lose to DT. Just because you see a unit with your eyes, doesn't mean it was th reason you lost. This must also be the reason people think banelings are good. No, you lost not to banes but by getting behind by 2 mining bases.
its difficult as a zerg getting ready for carriers. as we have no scan. they just pop out of nowhere 8 of them, and head for the main where the tech iis. and the whole game becomes a freakshow in the protoss's favor. if you see them coming its winnable, but if their secretly made , almost impossible to stop.
What about going air to pick off the Observers with cloaked Wraiths? I remember seeing an old montage with that happening. I understand that was probably just a one-off for a highlight reel for StarCraft of yesteryear but geeze! Currently mass Goliaths doesn't seem to be working. However, why not just Shift + Right click on all the Carriers? I'm very glad he did use EMP though! What about Lockdown? What about this? What about that? I mean, it's easy to armchair coach but I hate to see Flash lose like that TWICE haha. Anecdotally, I held off several waves of Carriers with Lockdown on one of the rare times I played a money map. I think ultimately they formed a secret alliance with another player and I was eventually overrun but it was kind of a proud moment thwarting what they probably saw as a quick and easy win. But fuck money maps! Haha.
In late-game TvPs they get to 60-80 workers, stop making them, and then never remake as the workers die off. In this match it was justifiable since no bases but other times it gets down to like 20 vs 15 workers and hero unit DT tactics where it seems like it would've been easier for one player to set aside some of their 10k bank for a couple more workers in the lategame. I wonder if it's just pros getting to 20m and wanting the game to end from that point on?
Honest question: wouldn't lockdown be good vs carriers? Doesn't feel like that much of an investment and feels like a near certain kill, if golliaths are in position, plus it takes a carriers' interceptors out of the fight for the duration.
I've thought the same, almost treating it like queens in TvZ. But unfortunately it's way too tech dependent and introduces bio into mech builds. I could see some bold gamer try it but from what we've seen before it sucks.
By the time he knew carriers were a problem . No way he had time to upgrade and build ghosts. Lockdown is so hard to pull off. You would need like 20 ghosts to pull that off I would guess. Cloak and range
I really wonder if cloaked wraiths and Goliath isn't ab sawer. Obviously getting observers are the issue. I deal with this carrier bs daily. Really fucking annoying. No skill win in my opinion.
I was always wondering why protosses don't regularly approach PvT like Bisu does here, too often I see protosses get to a very comfortable position and then grind out (and sometimes lose) a 30+ minute game without going carriers when they very much could
Because he has the best spawn location for the carrier transition. If it was side-spawn then T will have a shorter distance to travel and punish the transition as that's when P halts army production to free space for carriers, and that's P being at their weakest.
@@김상민-e8d Damn it's almost like the terran won't have tanks and vultures on the ground against the goons and zealots. Listen if you haven't played any of the StarCraft games, don't comment
@@CultOfMonika hey bro 1wraith = 150mineral and 100gas 1tank = 150mineral and 100gas do you even know about 'economy'? and if you think you re right why does every top terran pro players choose Goliath against carrier?
Does remaster still have the like 'maximum number of units on the screen' where valkyries and carriers sometimes dont shoot because theres too much already?
No, it's one of the few really great changes they made (they made very little), now units pretty much always work. Another really nice change is that everyone is on the same version, so a lot of desync issues you could get in the past are gone (mac vs pc)
Still don't understand why we don't see terrans go wraiths against carriers. Moving shot on the wraiths can largely invalidate psi storm, the wraiths are faster than the carriers by a significant margin and trade cost-favorably against them too.
@@bigmikeobama5314 too expensive, too long setup (mass barracks + covert ops + lockdown and optic implants research, waiting for energy), not mobile and die easily to any protoss ground units. Wraiths are better for hunting carriers.
Generally timing attack. Need to scout it earlier. It's tough if you're already behind, which Flash was, but if he scanned the carriers when he was around 165 supply he could have pushed sooner. It may not have worked in this exact game because Flash was behind but many many examples of him pushing and winning vs building carriers in this matchup. They don't even do that much when you only have three of them out.
Not a specific unit but if Zerg gets too much economy against T bio then they can just overrun them with defiler lurker ling or defiler ling ultra. Z can definitely get too big to fail. The matchup is still considered slightly in T favour though as getting to this point without dying and getting enough time to build enough drones is really really hard for Z.
What about gathering a decent group of Valks, then waiting for the right moment and flank the carriers with the Valks in the middle of their attack? I have no idea though, maybe that’s a dumb idea lol
Wraiths are the answer. Carriers can kite and wreck goliaths, but cannot escape cloaked wraiths. If protoss builds mass observers, then add a couple of valkyries.
Valkyries are trash against carriers (carrier base armor and all) and the splash doesn't work against interceptors. Please check what unit does what first. Oh, and wraiths are laughably fragile.
@@reishiki8682 valkyries are not supposed to kill carriers, they are supposed to kill oberservers (splash murders mass observers) and die heroically, while cloaked wraiths kill all carriers. Yes wraiths are fragile, but goliaths and ghosts are even worse choice.
@@ObeliskMExcept you're only thinking "if their only army supply is a carrier fleet". Once they go down P simply switches back to mass Gateway units... which Wraiths suck against.
@@reishiki8682 then terran switches to factory units, too. Protoss with carriers does not have that many gateways, and terran has a lot of scouting tools.
@@ObeliskMProtoss gets plenty of gates BEFORE the Stargates get added, did you even watch the game? And a transition from Starport to Factory production implies you have enough resources to do so... which is extremely unlikely against someone that massed carriers and went around hunting down CC's.
Theoreticaly yes ghosts. But for ghosts you need barrack and Flash only barrack was flying as a scout and he had 7 or more factorys/ Zerg have much better: We need scourges all larvas morph in scourges, We need ultralisks all larvas morph in ultralisks, We need prostitutes all larvas morph in Kerrigans
Someone needs to try valks. After the bug fix nobody has tried it. Yes I know the splash doesn’t work on interceptors but they can drag the splash into the carriers themselves and after emp they can basically DoT the carrier’s hp
Hey Mr.Tosis Would you mind briefly explaining to someone like me who doesn't play the game but watches all your casts bcs I used to play it 20 years ago as a kid - wouldn't Valkyries rek Carriers cuz of their AOE? Given Flashs developed economy wouldn't Tank Valkyrie be a viable comp?
![Snow With 200/200 Scouts Vs. Artosis [TRANSLATED]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/owDlsiWZP-M/mqdefault.jpg)
6:10 "I see what's on the screen with my eyes, but it doesn't register."
That's how I feel watching any of these pros.
Often feel same.
he actually never scouted the robo either
Flash was getting vessels and emp so he must have thought that the stargate was for arbiters
12:35 not an entirely serious thought but I'd watch 10 minutes of Artosis just rating every psi storm
my good sir, might you be interested in some klazart casts?
Carriers walk into a bar. There is no counter.
BC hard counter them. BUT BUT BUT! Protoss can build an arbiter. Terrans can counter either of those with science vessel or ghosts but that's just beyond their IQ.
@@AntiDoctor-cx2jd bc dont really counter carriers and protoss can hard counter bc ez
@@AntiDoctor-cx2jd No
@@freehatespeech6804 1/2 braincell went into this answer
@@AntiDoctor-cx2jd More than your armchair general scrub quote post was worth
11:51 "when you are in the 60s you feel good"
*Happy Beatles noises coming from Flash's SVCs*
excellent casting as always. anyway, when will somebody tell Flash to do what Arty did to solve brood war, which is to play Battle Asses for 20 hours straight?
10:35 The timing of the scan here to spot the shuttles as they're flying in-route to his base just shows why Flash is the GOAT.
22 day flash streak
Arty flashed us 22 days in a row
The month of flash is upon us
It is a era of life
Keep counting, this ain't stopping :○
Not enough!
I don't know about you guys, but I am getting chills right now 😂😂😂
4:20 when terran will learn to properly repair their units with SCV is also scary
Your passion for the game is contagious, I'm enjoying these daily casts. :-)
I hear Terran has a unit that can LockDown Protoss units. Never see it though..
Usually there's a reason why.
And some air fighting planes that counter others air units...
@samc9133 the reason is that pro-gamers are fucking dumb, mindless drones and just do the same tried and true things over and over without properly experimenting.
Once a single one of them starts using ghosts and finds a breakthrough strategy, everyone else will just blindly follow as they always do. Royal almost made it happen but have up: shouldn't have, he was in the right path.
This already happened with valks and queens, and it will happen with ghosts eventually.
Artosis actually used the lockdown ability multiple times and it works well.
@@tomaspineiro9767
Yes. To the slow, low skill protoss player mind, wraiths actually counter carriers.
Pretty sure he didn’t see the robo cause he didn’t place it until the scv was chased out and killed
Awesome game, thanks for casting Arty!
Bottom right base held off so much with cannons and storm in the choke. Was cool to see shuttles going there too. Great game!
You should also do Flash vs. Motive, I think in one of their games Motive even told Flash when and how to take a third expansion (as in, after going five factoroes and then either punishing Protoss for greed or expanding if Protoss isn't greedy)
dude this novelty of Flash publicly completing the tutorial on how to play modern bw terran will never wear off for me
The Motive series was very interesting for sure
Flash doesn't need Motive, he's God
@@thalanoth *looks at Motove thrashing him with no game won by Flash* yeah, sure buddy.
@@thalanothA true master will take advice from anywhere so long as it’s useful. The willingness to learn is what makes Flash a God.
flash is so stubborn lol he is literally determined to make the build work
he's playing under a barcode and didn't want to announce he was back initially - I don't think he WANTED people scrutinizing his games to this level, he just wants to derust and experiment in peace. I don't blame him for trying to do what worked for him in the old days. I think he is probably trying to minmax/limit test and see how much he has to change to be able to fit the new meta.
Wish to see more TvZ out of him as well.
@@theSato i get that but being that I'm a terran player also, i understand what he is thinking and what he is trying to do, i tried literally everything to make that style work and it just doesn't work anymore
@@theSatoare you Sato that makes UMS StarCraft maps?
"A murder of Carriers" was shrewd.
You spoke about pros not reacting / thinking about what they see. I read a long time ago that StarCraft pros were having their brain scanned while playing and the “instinct” part of the brain lit up when they see tech changes etc so exactly it’s not them even thinking about it - they just do it ahaha awesome
Another potential game-breaking thing is Snow's reavers. Imagine if every protoss could dodge tank hits and drag mines with a shuttle like Snow.
don't worry I heard Protoss players have no skill and they just mass gateways and run over the enemy, they won't be able to learn things like "micro"
Protoss are so op its ridiculous
@@ripperthecrooks6428 na, that's a noob statement
@johnnyboy3563 just look at Jaedong play man, the skill required to play zvp like he does is insane , look at him FPVod it's actually crazy how good he is. Now tell me that zerg doesn't require more skill than toss.
@ripperthecrooks6428 The same can be said about Snow. Apm isn't the only indication of skill. If protoss were so OP, everyone would play it.
Great positioning this game throughout the map. Like a battlegrid on a massive tabletop game
Flash would of casted even more flash games
When the ASL qualifications start and do you think flash has a chance to get in final 24 based on speed you see him learning new meta. Also keep up the good streams Arti and I will be never sick of flash replays
First, your videos were fun. Now I’m addicted
As soon as you said the next day my head went to and the very next day he was home sweet home and then I realized your mind went there too I'm as weird as you are, nice
He didn't see the Robo, you had it right the first time.
Thank you for the much content Artois !! much
Thanks for casting! If only Flash used dropships against 5 o clock....
Really been hard for me to tell from these series if Flash is still just "catching up on the meta" or if Bisu and JD are just in really good shape right now. Tbh I'm hoping for the latter as Flash/Bisu/JD are my 3 favorite players at their respective races.
12 vs 13 vs 14 carriers was so on point :)
Watching the 2 latest Flash vs Bisu games made me forget that Ghosts existed. Great stuff though.
Valkyrie to splash observers and wraith to dive on the carriers (watching for high templars) while another wraith scouts for the next incoming observer. To beat carriers you have to be in a great economic position which is only usually achieved by a successful one base(has to kill natural expo). 1 rax pumping rines while getting mines with a machine shop and tank from that factory while getting vulture from 2nd factory. When you attack you have to watch for him to hide his army and try to flank you....this is his only chance to hold so to counter this you have to keep scouting like crazy with vulture and scvs because finding that army and isolating it before it can group with his reinforcement will give you a great advantage. You'll have to send all your units as soon as mines are almost ready and bring scvs too....don't let the scvs or vultures take even a single shot from the dragons without having most of your ranged units attacking at least one volley.
Ghost with lockdown is the most underutilized spells ever, it would have been perfect to use versus the Carriers.
Ghosts with Lockdown take four minutes to create from the moment you finish your science facility. You will never ever in a million years be able to get ghosts rolling before carriers kill you, because for some asinine reason neither cloak nor lockdown are automatic spells and they take a combined 3 minutes to research (plus it takes like a full minute for Ghosts to gain Lockdown energy).
@@Armisael4321 I don't think that cloak is needed (specially when the carriers are surrounded by like 10 observers).
And Ghosts can be recruited during Lockdown research to save energy. It really does not take that much time to make them (compared to Carriers production time).
The issue with Ghost is that their lockdown range is not that big, their gas cost, their survivability and that they require a lot of micro for execution. But I still think that Terran players just haven't given them enough of a chance. With the combination of Scans to find carriers and Defense Matrix from Science Vessels, it should be completely possible to little by little eliminate the carriers. Lockdown lasts an eternity once it lands.
Lockdown has the casting range of a Marine with no range upgrade lol.
@@reishiki8682 that's not true. Lockdown has the same range as Science Vessels EMP and Goliaths air attack range with their upgrade.
@@lavq7000 too expensive, too long setup (mass barracks + ghost academy + lockdown and optic implants research, waiting for energy), not mobile and die easily to any protoss ground units. Wraiths are better for hunting carriers.
16:32 not to mention like 2000 minerals and gas tied up in the production tab
Leta! Say his name @Artosis! He was so fun to watch, totally bananas
This is now flash's channel.
Ahh Artosis, you have arrived.
OH WOW ! Flash! I haven't seen flash video on Ur channel for A WHILE now .... ;p
0:48 are you thinking of the Duck Song lol
Flash is certainly playing catching up everyday. Already approaching Bisu level.
16:59 "That's when the game just becomes out of control. [...] Control tower"
I'd love to see a different strategy for late game carriers from Terran for once. Terrans need to keep an additional threat out on the field alongside their goliaths to punish the carriers. Spamming goliath is cool and all, but Terrans need to think about their trump card against carriers (killing them) if they decide to levitate over terrain Terran can't access very well.
If we're not talking about money restraints then there could be some options like a small group of wraiths (countered by obs), a couple long range BCs using yamato (stasis countered), ghost lockdown (lack of range), EMP from science vessel (seen here by flash). Idc if pro players think that it's inefficient to deploy some of these units for counters. There just needs to be a big threat put into the goliath spam in case protoss does decide to commit and you catch them off guard. You can see DTs from protoss put into battle when carriers are attacking, why can't Terran do something similar?
The reason it's easy for protoss to throw DT's into the mix is because they already have a bunch of gates and is same tech as high temps. For terran to get ghosts would be a bunch of extra tech and research, BC's also require extra tech and more starport's which is harder to do in practical sense because factories take up so much space, there's no room for much else.
@@Wysaw Yeah, I'm aware of the tech tree differences. I was trying to draw a parallel for unit mixture to throw the opponent off. Part of me is tired of seeing terrans lose to carrier late game, and would love to see some counter play that isn't goliath spam with the occasional emp.
Maybe in a couple of years some proplayer will prove it that there is answer instead of lame "don't let'em make'em".
@@SuPeRbOoMfAn It just doesn't work in reality though doing that. It's like Arty say's, best counter to mass carriers is seeing it coming and stopping it getting that far. Makes sense in my mind, if you let your opponent mass a deadly unit up then you lose.
This is exactly right, goliaths + something. I always make a long sigh when I see mass goliaths and it's too late
Flash always gets wrecked by his tanks being too clumped during the big engagements.
Counter to scouting block - Proxy Eng-bay fly over.
Love is the answer for everything !
the flash came back, the very next day
I came here for Flash. GGs!
This breakfast I was eating good with this game 👍
That was a good match, but, bummer to see how many times Flash had chances to lay fire into the carriers, but he didn't target his Goliaths. Lots of times the gols were basically in range and they were shooting interceptors.
Somebody get this man some adderall so he can achieve his potential again lol
that was a sick game
Marines + EMP missiles well placed
man those dt's were a menace
I seriously want to see a pro terran player show us mere mortals how to deal with carriers.
My go to solution had always been ghost lockdown + goliath spam and i was hoping to see that this match, but alas.
My micro sux tho, so getting a squad of ghosts at full upgrade and energy to double lockdown carriers was pretty impossible for me. The best i could do out of 12 was probably lockdown like 4, maybe 6 if i got lucky
When Blizzard was designing SC they probably thought that, in theory, Battlecruisers, Lockdown and all the Terran anti-air tech would allow them to deal with Carriers. In practice, we know how that turned out.
You're right. I still think that there is a chance for lockdown to become a thing against carriers too.
@@Winnetou17 I think so, too. Usually when you go 3 or 4 bases as T you have an excess of gas that you cant spend and adding a couple of ghosts spread around your expansions to be ready for use similarly to Vessels vs Arbs wont tax your APM or multitasking as much as most people think and managing to lockdown even 1 carrier is a huge win for the T, not to mention putting fear into the Protoss' heart.
indeed they are very capable of handling carriers. But people insist goliaths
Ghosts do zero damage to carriers. Even if they lock em down its a complete waste of gas
@@Figgy20000 What?? You need 1 Goliath to kill a locked down Carrier... for half of the duration of the spell. Ghosts are not used to kill Carriers, but to disable them.
@10:40 How did flash know to bring everything back? Was there a god scan at 9 o clock that you missed???
instead of switching to mass goliaths, isn't it be better to have a mix of 1:3 goliaths/marines (or even higher) to kills interceptors/carriers?
from what i remember back then, goliaths have never been effective against carriers (unless you can target them directly ofc) since their missiles may take time to hit interceptors while marines effectively hit them the second they shoot. also doesn't it takes time for carriers to acquire a new target? so giving them more targets to deal with reduce their average "dps" quite a bit. again i may be in the wrong since i haven't played for literally decades.
Gracias por el video.
what a match
Bisu looks on fire, maybe next asl will finally be his.
Nah, he'll get cooked by zergs
The answer to how you beat carriers, is don't lose to DT. Just because you see a unit with your eyes, doesn't mean it was th reason you lost. This must also be the reason people think banelings are good. No, you lost not to banes but by getting behind by 2 mining bases.
To be fair, it was 3 base vs. 5 then. 6 base for like five minutes. Terran almost never recovers from that, regardless of type of protoss army
its difficult as a zerg getting ready for carriers. as we have no scan. they just pop out of nowhere 8 of them, and head for the main where the tech iis. and the whole game becomes a freakshow in the protoss's favor. if you see them coming its winnable, but if their secretly made , almost impossible to stop.
What about going air to pick off the Observers with cloaked Wraiths? I remember seeing an old montage with that happening. I understand that was probably just a one-off for a highlight reel for StarCraft of yesteryear but geeze! Currently mass Goliaths doesn't seem to be working. However, why not just Shift + Right click on all the Carriers? I'm very glad he did use EMP though!
What about Lockdown? What about this? What about that? I mean, it's easy to armchair coach but I hate to see Flash lose like that TWICE haha.
Anecdotally, I held off several waves of Carriers with Lockdown on one of the rare times I played a money map. I think ultimately they formed a secret alliance with another player and I was eventually overrun but it was kind of a proud moment thwarting what they probably saw as a quick and easy win. But fuck money maps! Haha.
Answer make Ghost atleast x4-5 and use Lockdown. There is no way they right click seeing ghosts near walking whole army.
Wouldn't keeping a few valkyries on top of your goliaths help a lot against the interceptors?
valks splash damage does not work against interceptors
@@sebastiantru4702 Wow. Between that and the worker micro thing RT talked about I dunno how anyone can call this game balanced with a straight face
In late-game TvPs they get to 60-80 workers, stop making them, and then never remake as the workers die off. In this match it was justifiable since no bases but other times it gets down to like 20 vs 15 workers and hero unit DT tactics where it seems like it would've been easier for one player to set aside some of their 10k bank for a couple more workers in the lategame. I wonder if it's just pros getting to 20m and wanting the game to end from that point on?
well played from Bisu. Bisu is fire
I just hope his level now is better than in the last ASL dude, gosh, the way he fumbled against Snow was dismal.
Flash did not see the robo, he just assumed it because it's meta.
just use Banshee's and focus observatory with everything soon as you break that protoss only got cannons for vision.
this is brood war though? unless you goofin
Counter to carriers? TANKS!
if he had realized the 2 hero DTs at the end this might have been close but carriers in that supply is 1 in 100 for Terran to beat. GGs boys.
The answer to carriers is "I guess I'll die".
3 GOATS! Flash, Bisu, RT!
@artosiscasts I made a custom map with a carrier hard counter. It's the only video on my channel.
Honest question: wouldn't lockdown be good vs carriers? Doesn't feel like that much of an investment and feels like a near certain kill, if golliaths are in position, plus it takes a carriers' interceptors out of the fight for the duration.
I've thought the same, almost treating it like queens in TvZ. But unfortunately it's way too tech dependent and introduces bio into mech builds. I could see some bold gamer try it but from what we've seen before it sucks.
Lockdown range is shit. You literally will never catch them.
@@lexor24 Don't know about "too tech dependent" you need a single barracks, maybe two, one add-on to a building you already have and one upgrade.
By the time he knew carriers were a problem . No way he had time to upgrade and build ghosts. Lockdown is so hard to pull off. You would need like 20 ghosts to pull that off I would guess. Cloak and range
I really wonder if cloaked wraiths and Goliath isn't ab sawer. Obviously getting observers are the issue. I deal with this carrier bs daily. Really fucking annoying. No skill win in my opinion.
...Did RT make a ducksong reference..?
I believe he did!
Sure wish they would make minor small updates to the game... would probably change some playstyles slightly for better balance.
I was always wondering why protosses don't regularly approach PvT like Bisu does here, too often I see protosses get to a very comfortable position and then grind out (and sometimes lose) a 30+ minute game without going carriers when they very much could
Also, I love how proactive Bisu is and has ~6 observers with his carriers, just so that he doesn't get wrecked by surprise wraiths
Because he has the best spawn location for the carrier transition. If it was side-spawn then T will have a shorter distance to travel and punish the transition as that's when P halts army production to free space for carriers, and that's P being at their weakest.
In the cutscenes on the campaign; it is clear that wraiths counter carriers (:
🎉🎉🎉
Solution = scan more often especially if you see stargates.
Was that the cat came back? Sounds like the mini-tosises are being exposed to some good Canadian culture 😄
Carriers nightmare is Horde of valkyrie
Would mass wraith work against mass carriers? I'm thinking at it through the perspective of SC2 like using vikings
Wraith is trash for against templar and dragoon and also law hp
@@김상민-e8d notice how i said AGAINST Carriers
@@CultOfMonika but there is no protoss only use carrier whithout ground army
i mean the combination of ground unit and flight unit
@@김상민-e8d Damn it's almost like the terran won't have tanks and vultures on the ground against the goons and zealots. Listen if you haven't played any of the StarCraft games, don't comment
@@CultOfMonika hey bro
1wraith = 150mineral and 100gas 1tank = 150mineral and 100gas
do you even know about 'economy'?
and if you think you re right
why does every top terran pro players choose Goliath against carrier?
Does remaster still have the like 'maximum number of units on the screen' where valkyries and carriers sometimes dont shoot because theres too much already?
No, it's one of the few really great changes they made (they made very little), now units pretty much always work. Another really nice change is that everyone is on the same version, so a lot of desync issues you could get in the past are gone (mac vs pc)
battlenet is still terribly laggy and all though, lol.
Still don't understand why we don't see terrans go wraiths against carriers. Moving shot on the wraiths can largely invalidate psi storm, the wraiths are faster than the carriers by a significant margin and trade cost-favorably against them too.
when is Artosis gonna drop his compendium of Starcraft childrens stories?
What can Terran do against such reckless Protoss Carrier play?
ghosts with lockdown
@@bigmikeobama5314 Ah, that explains why terran lost then, Flash would have made ghosts with lockdown
@@phoenixlich idk about ghosts but in this case flash didnt even see the carriers in time so
@@bigmikeobama5314 too expensive, too long setup (mass barracks + covert ops + lockdown and optic implants research, waiting for energy), not mobile and die easily to any protoss ground units. Wraiths are better for hunting carriers.
Generally timing attack. Need to scout it earlier. It's tough if you're already behind, which Flash was, but if he scanned the carriers when he was around 165 supply he could have pushed sooner. It may not have worked in this exact game because Flash was behind but many many examples of him pushing and winning vs building carriers in this matchup. They don't even do that much when you only have three of them out.
is there any other unit in the game that when you see large group of, it means you're pretty much already dead?
Not a specific unit but if Zerg gets too much economy against T bio then they can just overrun them with defiler lurker ling or defiler ling ultra. Z can definitely get too big to fail. The matchup is still considered slightly in T favour though as getting to this point without dying and getting enough time to build enough drones is really really hard for Z.
If you're up against that many interceptors, mixing in a couple Valkyries will do an insane amount of damage.
No, it won’t. Valkyries do not deal splash damage to interceptors.
@@ArtosisCasts Then what's the point of Valkyries lol
What about gathering a decent group of Valks, then waiting for the right moment and flank the carriers with the Valks in the middle of their attack? I have no idea though, maybe that’s a dumb idea lol
@@rockdrigo9326*laughs in carrier base armor plus shields*
@@carllazarraga2858 anti-muta only basically
Wraiths are the answer. Carriers can kite and wreck goliaths, but cannot escape cloaked wraiths. If protoss builds mass observers, then add a couple of valkyries.
Valkyries are trash against carriers (carrier base armor and all) and the splash doesn't work against interceptors. Please check what unit does what first.
Oh, and wraiths are laughably fragile.
@@reishiki8682 valkyries are not supposed to kill carriers, they are supposed to kill oberservers (splash murders mass observers) and die heroically, while cloaked wraiths kill all carriers.
Yes wraiths are fragile, but goliaths and ghosts are even worse choice.
@@ObeliskMExcept you're only thinking "if their only army supply is a carrier fleet". Once they go down P simply switches back to mass Gateway units... which Wraiths suck against.
@@reishiki8682 then terran switches to factory units, too. Protoss with carriers does not have that many gateways, and terran has a lot of scouting tools.
@@ObeliskMProtoss gets plenty of gates BEFORE the Stargates get added, did you even watch the game? And a transition from Starport to Factory production implies you have enough resources to do so... which is extremely unlikely against someone that massed carriers and went around hunting down CC's.
Mass carrier is the same as old infestor broodlord
"The very next day..." xD
Scourge. Oh, you mean Terran? Then ghost.
Theoreticaly yes ghosts. But for ghosts you need barrack and Flash only barrack was flying as a scout and he had 7 or more factorys/ Zerg have much better: We need scourges all larvas morph in scourges, We need ultralisks all larvas morph in ultralisks, We need prostitutes all larvas morph in Kerrigans
Flash - " Carriers OP"
the correct term is a fleet i'd say
Someone needs to try valks. After the bug fix nobody has tried it. Yes I know the splash doesn’t work on interceptors but they can drag the splash into the carriers themselves and after emp they can basically DoT the carrier’s hp
No, it has been tried, and it’s not good. Carrier base armor is 4, the highest in the game.
@@ArtosisCasts then we are truly doomed..
That's a bit rough , you can loose all your bases and just play with 10 carriers for the next 10 minutes and still win with no economy.
Can anyone tell me how much the armor upgrades help the Terran in TvP?
The issue is that i'm sure I've watched this match on another channel three weeks ago...
You can understand that. You can pick better, fresher.
Hey Mr.Tosis
Would you mind briefly explaining to someone like me who doesn't play the game but watches all your casts bcs I used to play it 20 years ago as a kid - wouldn't Valkyries rek Carriers cuz of their AOE? Given Flashs developed economy wouldn't Tank Valkyrie be a viable comp?
Valks don’t deal splash damage to interceptors