Engineer Explains.. Boiler heat-exchangers blocked with sludge and scale. How to fix it correctly!
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- Опубліковано 20 сер 2024
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Absolute legend. This industry needs people like you. Keep up the fantastic work.
Thankyou. :-)
I flush the HW side by fitting a couple of isolating valves and a washing-machine Tee beneath the boiler, in the HW feed and flow pipes. I use a small pump to circulate white vinegar (5% acid) through the plate heat exchanger for an hour or so. Does a great job of descaling, for the cost of 5l of vinegar (about £5). In the US they seem to do this annually, and have the necessary valves fitted during a normal installation of a 'Tankless Boiler', as they call them. I just don't understand why it isn't also normal practice here in the UK! (I also mains-flush the heating side and radiators every two years)
Finally someone who knows what they are doing unlike all these people changing synchron motors when the spindle is stuck
:-)
The amount of Plate Heat Exchangers I have cleaned in the last 2 weeks is 9 so far, but I think your right, replacing the whole Plate and doing a Powerflush would be the best way. Great video. 👍👍👍
Brilliant explanation mate, I had an old boiler and took exchange rout and cleaned using your method it fixed the hot water getting colder , but didn’t power flush - then we moved
Great video again man!Thanks for sharing,we do the same thing here in Greece.1 problem i also wanted to add is that sometimes the acid might burn through the heat exchanger
It has never happened to me yet. Maybe one day it will
@@HeatingGeek Hope it never will:) It hasn t happpened to me either,many of my friends have expierenced it and told me to be carafull.I use an acid from aquamax and i mix it with a lot of water just to be safe
Im a plumbing and heating contractor here in the US and I install Navien quite a bit. I clean them using vinager thought eh service ports on the DHW side. The heating side do not normally clean.
Replacing heat exchangers is common when customers do not clean their systems annually. I run the vinager through the HE for 45 minutes. Seems to do the job.
I use spirits of salt all the time. Works fast and never really had any issues.
Excellent work. Thank you. I wish my boiler man knew this before he replaced my boiler after multiple visits.
I removed the plate heat exchanger from my Buderus 2 years ago and rinsed it out with spirit of salt for about 1 hour. The closed circuit part was clean due to the circulation of the inhibitor but the other side was very black and clogged. I live in a hard water area. My tap water has been hot ever since. By the way, a good description of the symptoms of what happens when the exchanger gets clogged. I'm not a plumber by trade so it took me a while to diagnose the problem.
Absolute Legend, wish I could train with you, I do breakdowns but your knowledge just supercedes everything I've learned by a thousand miles. I used to be your Patreon but haven't been doing extremely well financially I know it sounds pathetic, still love watching your videos, stay safe Oliver
It's hard being a self-employed heating engineer. Don't stress it. :-) Enjoy the vids and stay safe. :-)
Awesome vid, no woffle straight to the point 👍🏻🔥
Thanks :-)
I love you brother! This channel is breakdown gold. Quality videos with top visual and verbal explanations. Thank you. Subbed and recommended 👌
Welcome aboard! Thanks for commenting too. I appreciate it. :-)
Awesome he tells us how dangerous these chemicals ( 8 :05min) are then proceeds to let the chemicals pour down some outdoor drain with plants growing in it. gotta love the logic!!
Yeah, let the drain chemicals go down a drain??? The logic?
@@HeatingGeek all those chemicals that you were warning about, then you just let it pour down into some random drain. Do you think that's a good idea if they so dangerous???
Yes. :-) Its drain cleaner
Yes! and i wish there were more guys like you.
Good teacher great explanation, now I know
Glad it was helpful!
Great channel. Thoroughly enjoying it.
You are truly the oracle
Worcester will always replace a plate in warranty or on a service contract. Great video again 👍
Worcester also have the biggest plates of any boiler. :-) So they take longer to block. :-)
@@HeatingGeek
Exactly, Worcester have the nicest design heat exchangers with lower heat transfer rate and massive surface area hence the lower incident of blockedge .
Nice info bud….one of the best I’ve found.
Try using SDS+RTD. It is a safe-acid used by US Navy on heat transfer units, including potable water. SDS+RTD is inexpensive, hand safe, non-corrosive and environmentally friendly.
Thanks for this. The only company that cam ups were i Ohio though
What a fantastic video, thankyou very much for taking the time to make it.
Hey thanks for this video it explained better than most. Some people siphon cleaner through the heat exchanger but isn’t this only going to clean the central heating side of thr plate?
Superb video. Lukewarm DHW issue solved. Much appreciated, thank you👍
Glad it helped. What boiler?
@@HeatingGeek Ravenheat CSI 85
@@jeffbent5453 Nice one. Thats an underrated boiler. :-)
The factory service manual of the Remeha Tzerra Ace recommends cleaning the plate HX with citric acid, pH around 3. There is even a tool available.
What tool? Do you have a part no? It would be interesting to see
@@HeatingGeek No part number in the sercive guide ( tools.remeha.nl/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2019/12/Servicehandleiding-Tzerra-Ace.pdf ) but it is shown at page 38. On one end of the HX, the outlets are connected with a block.
The other ens gets an input and output hose fitting. That would allow flushing the whole thing with a single flow of water.
Sorry, this comment was heard for review. I guess because of the link. What a good bit of info. Thanks for that. I never knew any manufacture recommended it.
Nice video pal, Swansea here
Thanks for coming. :-)
Cool. After all, a normal professional.
Brilliant thanks for your efforts 👍 need some new videos from your ace channel
Love the Dr Pipe comment. You are both great to watch but my god you do lose me sometimes, you my friend are a professor( no doubt cocked that spelling up)
I cant spell at all. :-) Dr pipe has some good knowledge too. :-)
Hi GEEK, Great video a few queries regarding domestic use. I currently have a Viessmann 200 W installed with a Spira-Cross low loss header fitted, light industrial pump to add to the circulation but in just over 3 years I've ditched two heat exchange plates. I've spoken with the plumber regarding dirt separation but the header should take care of this, I've also mentioned the hard water within our area and possibly installing a water softener. Do you think this could help??
I don't know the low loss header you speak about. How big is it? If it has a large bore the dirt should separate into the bottom of it. How do you clean it out though? Hard your installer cleaned it out?
Excellent video mate 👌
Brilliant explanation mate👏👏😀👍❤️🇬🇧
When you said 'how do you unblock them' I just heard Iain's response from a team breif 'bang it on a kurb and flush it with water' I always wondered if he said that just to cover himself 😂
I liked working for BG. Nice easy contractor work. Good pay etc. What a load of shit that is now. :-)
@@HeatingGeek Wait until this winter starts were all gonna get calls to go back, I never really enjoyed it other that you was always local and I guess it was an easy life but I never thought the pay was great unless you worked away or did incentive work
@@charlie12358 I done well from BG. Found it a nice easy day and other than the "us/them" attitude from direct labour it was ok.
@@HeatingGeek mate your vids are brilliant im now a avid follower of your posts can i ask you on a combi i know its ok to work on the hot and cold (say changing a tap) while the heatings running but what do you do when your working on the heating side of things do you just always turn the power off at the spur or just turn the thermostat down to avoid any damage to boiler while say replacing a rad etc? Cheers
Agree with your comments but a lot will not go down the power flush route, they just get engineer after engineer and expect a magic wand from one of them.
Yep. If they pay, then why not. :-)
Grand job as normal, top information
Glad you enjoyed it. Thanks for watching
Brilliant
Glad you liked it. Are you an engineer? How do you do them?
Awesome video bud🔥, lovin it.👍. Hope to some more soon.🤞
Got a couple getting edited at the moment. I need permission for one of them first though. :-)
Fantastic video and great respect for integrity, honesty & generosity . Rare in this industry.
Also, i have quick question, i seen videos posted about temp testing to see if plate heat ex is blocked by measuring the temp difference between the hot water pipe near boiler and the primary return to boiler (out of pump) they should be identical(5 c range)
Is that correct and can you please explain how is that possible. How is that possible or true.
Or it makes more sense that the heat diff between the primary flow and primary return is the heat gained by the cold water to become hot water.
If p flow was 75 primary return 40 then temp lost (gained by cold water) will be 35c so if cold water was 10c then hot water will be 35+10=45c
Is that correct?
Also pls does boilers keep delta t 20 in hor water mode i.e for example primary flow 75c primary return 55.? Or not the case.
If not is that mean the boiler condense more in hot water mode than in heating mode
Much appreciate your reply
Thanks again
Just from your questions I know your mind works like mine. I did start to do a series of test about this, but never got round to doing the video. The ΔT isn't kept to 20 or 11 (older boilers) in hot water mode. The boiler condenses less in HW mode because of higher return temperatures.
You cant assume the temp difference between flow and return is the temp the mains will increase. The flow rate of both would have to be perfectly matched and also the heat transfer would need to be 100% to achieve that.
The ΔT is still monitored in HW mode but only for safety reasons.
@@HeatingGeek thanks for a quick reply. So is the idea that the temp of the hot water pipe as just it leaves the boiler and the temp of hot water return after pump should be identical (5 c diff tolerance) is solid enough to say definitely we have blocked plate heat exchanger correct? I would love a video about that
Thanks again and very very much appreciated
Hi¡ great video¡
I am having low flow from my Baxi Duo Tec 28. I have checked cold water pressure is high enough (35 liters/minute) while hot water flow is no more than 6 liters/minutes: do you think it can be caused by heat exchanger (blocked)?
Thanks
Great fitter 🙏
Thanks so much. I really appreciate the comment. I have loads of stuff filmed and will be back ASAP.
Replace the plate other than cleaning it will still get it blocked again if you don't powerflush it?
How do you get your work from insurance companies and manufacturers? Are there specific channels, or do you just contact them directly?
Thanks for the video liam gallagher
Who? :-)
Glad you cleared that up mate!
I had a powerflush done. Plumber spent the whole day on it and done a water test before and after. 3 months later the heat exchanger blocked up again. And has blocked up another 3 times since!
Plumber said he was happy with his powerflush and suggested replacing some of my older radiators. Does this sound right?
if its the plate heat exchanger, it could be worth changing it now, cleaning would only be a way of prolonging the life of what you have currently, but wont be a cure.
When was the flush done? If 15 years ago then maybe he right. :-) If your system has loads of dead legs or it needs filling every week then it can be got clean enough. :-)
@@HeatingGeek the flush was done last year. Had 4 new heat exchangers from baxi since. The system and most of the radiators are 4 years old. I have 3 radiators that are 15 years old
Be worth fitting a magna filter to stop anything that the flush may have missed? doesn't take much to cause problems in the plate.
@@Snaggleplops already fitted mate. It doesnt seem to stop the big pieces..only the very fine ones
i have a combination hotwater/heating boiler, and i have no clue whats going on..
It starts working, no hot water produced... it runs for few sec, then i can hear like water starting to boil, then it shuts of
whats that?
Hi!
I've got a Plate Heat Exchanger to change on a Logic + 30. Is it as easy as it looks? Is there anything I should watch out for or be aware of? First time changing one on a Logic.
Thanks for your help and advice, it really does make a difference!
Same as all the others really. :-)
My hot water out of the tap is brownish colour after replacing a radiator and adding inhibitor to the system, do you think it is sludge coming out of the system? Or would you know what it could be. When I run it for a while the water goes near to clear
What type of cylinder do you have? If it's prismatic that could be the problem.
Removing the plate, surly you need to replace the seals? Do you carry all the seals for the boilers for the plate?
I must have 75% of seals on the van :-)
HeatingGeek beautiful. By the way I messaged you Instagram regarding storage for seals and parts. Gone with raaco and festool 👍🏻
Another great video. Love your clear and precise manner.
My understanding is ; Scale is not always lime scale and often the primary side is scaled and fouled. Scale from hard water is lime scale. Cleaning stainless steel with the incorrect acid can cause Redox. This changes the stainless steel to a new alloy that may not resist corrosion. Kamco fx2 is phosphoric acid and citric acid and is suitable for cleaning plates with low risk of both injury and to the component. It takes longer to clean a plate though. If acid is used it must be neutralised before the plate is refitted or the system ph can be altered accelerating corrosion in the system. Imo inhibitors are a danger to a heating system. I dont disagree about your statement on inhibitor levels but we know they lead to system issues while systems treated to european standards are less likely to experience issues.
On a recent course at imi it was explained that sealed system can be more prone to corrosion as micro bubbles can not be removed without vacuum de gassing. Please post your videos on the heating design forum your input is valued.
Thanks for your input. I will post it later in the week to FB. I used to carry FX2 but find it too slow. :-) I also use DS3 but again found it too slow. :-)
@@HeatingGeek yes it is slow. I understand your helpful approach. You do explain your logic and it's positive.
Yes Andrew, inhibitors cause more trouble than help.
I have also noticed the system heavily dosed with it ,still had the HE blockedge on both heat exchangers at the similar rate.
Also diaphragm in the DV didn't last very long in presence of the inhibitors.
I think the best advice to reduce the scale and sludge is to reduce the heat 🔥 .
keep the dial at 3/4 of the way at most.
Hi what’s the name of the acid that you use to clean the sludge out?
Spirits of salt
Good to know, thanks!
No problem!
Excellent video, can you use brick acid?
Yes, but its not as strong. I did used to use it. Mortex was my preferred brand. :-)
Hi, I'm a tenent and been without hot water for a week and the engineer has diagnosed the heat exchanger as the problem in the HIU the unit was made in 2006 and there are no longer spares for this unit. He has refered it back to the landlord that says it could take up to two weeks to replace the HIU. I can't be with out water for this long If I remove the exchanger myself would there be any benifit in doing a quick back flush. I only need it to last a couple of weeks? Or should I use the ACID method. I'm a trades man so and quite competent. Thanks
What area do you live?
how to clean main heat exchanger on Potterton combi
are you talking about the primary or secondary side blocking? and what do you use to dissolve the blockage?
Both. Have you watched the video?
brick cleaner, is probally the strongest, primary is sludge,you can try flushing and using ch cleaner. Secondry is , remove the plate and use acid to clean, let it sit and steep for 10 minutes or so....... Bob on son:)
Would a plate blockage cause a combi-fed shower head to whistle? Trying to narrow down wether the work the water company is doing in my area is causing my issue, or if it's the boiler, or if it's the mixer valve (~12 year old system).
Point of use issue must be the head. Try descaling that first :-)
Instead of using a power flush,.especially on micobore pipes could you just use the adey magnacleanse and clear the plate heat exchanger with those two big magnets
No, I dont think you could. You need to increase flow to move the debris.
@@HeatingGeek thanks for the reply
Insurance companies can cover under a full maintenance policy....problem is no one would pay the premium.....people always go for the cheapest!!!!
Is a vinegar bath a good solution to unclug Bosch greenstar Heat Exchanger clogged with grime and scale. Furnace was not cleaned in 9 years and stopped. Did a clean up but flame won't stay on after cleaning goes on for a minute the flame dies. Remove as much as I could but the middle of the core still clogged. It seems there's no suction. Any advise? thanks
usually the heating side of the heat exchangers get blocked. I find, if the mains water side gets full of white scale it's easer for me to replace the whole heat exchanger. If however it is the heating side then use spirits of salt or a good system cleaner to remove the debris. I am usually in a hurry and thats why I use spirits of salt (very fast but very risky)
SWEP have a new technology called Sealix, which prevents scale.
Who is SWEP?
why not put the heat exchanger into a ultrasound bath with a neutral cleaning solution woth a small aquarium pump connected to recirculate during the ultrasound bath?
Time and equipment.
@@HeatingGeek So it is applicable and I suspect more safe solution.
@@chiranagheorghitaeugeniuth98 Yes it is more safe. I do not know if it is a better solution? Limescale and sludge are very difficult to remove.
👍👍
In Your Opinon What Is The Best Wall Hung Gas Fired Boiler Unit On The Market?
I have a video coming about that.
Hello, thanks for your clip. Can I please ask for your acid details? e.g the name, where to buy etc.
Regards
It's spirits of salt. Very very dangerous. I don't recommend anyone using it.
Insurers provide cover from 1 radiator system to 50plus...now every system has and will have sludge and limescale,hence they cannot cover failure due to sludge as the annual premiums will shoot from 80million to 1
3billion due to claim repaired due to sludge. That's why they protect policy T&C's it's not a get out clause it's to stop repairs to be carried out. Plus MI state systems must be flushed and have Magnetic filters serviced annually to ensure system is working without fault. I have annually serviced boilers I installed for last 8yrs have had little or no known fault due to sludge....
Yep. I know.
Yeah Worcester if it's in warranty replace plates
When power flushing existing combi boiler systems do we have to make sure the divertor is in hot water mode to make sure it cleans the plate or if possible place divertor in mid position ?
Sebastian Hensby connect the gas pipe to the condensation trap
Where would you be connecting the powerflush into the system?
@@aqib2000 Im not sure that would work?? I will give it a go. ;-/
@@HeatingGeek when you are powerflushing the system how do we make sure we're flushing through the plate heat exchanger ?
HeatingGeek it does require a lighter
great video but.......all that nasty acid cleaning agent going down the drain isnt good for the environment 🙏
That acid will end up in rivers
My mums boiler not working properly saw water coming from near the heat exchanger engineer came said pipe not glued charged £65 didn't solve it came back 2hrs later said was heat exchanger
Listened to your advice and was really lifted in my spirit.... ive a 20 something worcester heatslave oil boiler intermittently overheating and has now had 3 diverter cartridges in 18 months... and works perfectly for a few months only .. so decided to speak with another engineer and he says £1800 for new exchanger.. but ive looked and sourced several at around £100-£150.... i need more help and advice .. then i watched your video .. can you help..? Richard up in dundee
Cant help... Sorry :-)
Thanks again not lot people are that straight
Sorry I didn’t respond to this comment. I didn’t see it in my feed. :-(
Can I buy a test kit to test the inhibitor level in my rads? and will it work by bleeding a rad a little bit to get the sample?
Im not too sure. I guess you can but I don't actually know. :-)
Yes you can by test kits Adey do one called ADEY PRO CHECK and yes just drain some water out of a radiator or bleed some water out.(same thing)
A plumber mixed with Ian Brown. Kinda funny
What chemical is that please?
7:40, THATS EXACTLY WHATS HAPPENING TO MY BOILER!
Whats the actuall issue? please
This is your problem. Watch the video
yeah but i can't hear the pump runing as well :// its a mess
@@HeatingGeek
Then maybe no Hot water demand? Does your boiler show a hot water light
Why don't boiler manufacturers make these heat echangers easier to replace. Surely they could be designed to be in a much easier place to get to. And even make them tooless to replace.
Vaillant have it front and center with only 4 screws to remove to get it out.
Another reason not to use the method you show. It is an offence to discharge acid or any other nasty chemical into a rainwater drain. In my village and many like it, anything down a rainwater drain goes straight into the local rivers, killing plant life and fish. Plumbers and builders are the main offenders not to mention car washers.
Your right.
fill with flux and warm water. Leave for an hour and flush it out
No time for that.
Insurance companies are a big fraud, I cancel your domestic appliance insurance , save my money if my boiler goes wrong in 5 years I have saved over £500 and can then afford to replace a part with less than half that money.
I agree
How do you get work from insurance companies?
Many years of applying. Been doing it on and off since I was 20. :-)
I thought everyone uses acid to clean a P2P! One shot usually does the job :-)
I always have :-)
Your volume is crap. Can't hear,!
Why? other people haven't complained...
Why aren't modern boiler fitted with or come with a water filter for hard water areas? That can be changed annually on service intervals. So annoying paying £100 for a service when all they do is put some probes in do some readings and go away without even changing the syphon water and all you get is a print out, sorry but you pay for a service to look after it and they know by design the heat exchanger is going to fail , and policy won't cover it, from what I've read they are going to bad gas boilers and make people switch to hydrogen boilers, I bet they will cost a bomb and be shit as well.
I think your right. :-)
HeatingGeek cheers for the videos they have been brilliant and informative