PART II...What's deadlier, a .25 or .30 caliber airgun?
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- Опубліковано 5 вер 2024
- Hi everybody! This video is Part II of my examination of the deadliness of the .25 and .30 caliber airguns when set to the same energy level. Below is a link to the written article that accompanies this video.
Link to the written article:
www.bakerairgu...
Link to Baker Airguns website:
www.bakerairguns.com
I took delivery of a Hatsan Mod 130S in 30cal. I do NOT have a chronograph to shoot over for velocities but the "Sound" of the 30cal pellets striking the back of the pellet trap is FEROCIOUS!!
This was one of cooler UA-cam videos I've seen in awhile. Educational, informative, funny, and most importantly entertaining. I love this guy doesn't take himself too seriously.
Excellent demonstration !
Been an air gunner 50 + years now.
The innovation and styles have come a long way.
Yet, the same old debates are alive and well... Freaking awesome!🧙🏻♂️
I chose the .25 caliber because it was in the middle of the range of choices. .50 caliber has far more disadvantages to be reasonable and .177 was out of the question, so it basically came down to magazine capacity and air consumption. The .25 caliber is a perfect all around size that covers all the bases and checks all of the boxes.
Watched both videos. They both made sense, and as a bonus .25 through .27 caliber projectiles have better ballistic coefficiancy allowing them more accuracy and range as well. Thumb up on both videos. 😎
This is with non-expanding pellets. With equal fpe, the 25 would have more velocity and less frontal area to expend it, so it makes sense that it would penetrate deeper. By limiting the 30 cal FPE to that which the 25 can attain, you are placing the 30 at a disadvantage. Max out both calibers with a mid weight expanding slug. Also if the rifle you're using isn't able to shoot 30 cal projectiles to their full potential, that is another disadvantage for the 30.
Correct, kinda useless test, and you can tell by how he talks he is biased towards the 25, plus folding in the 30's channel to make it seem smaller, or measuring generously for the 25.. Id like to see a real test, not something set up to make you feel better about your 25
Seems you have missed the point. Yes it may be obvious that the .25, with smaller surface area, will penetrate farther at the same fpe as the .30 cal. The reverse to your assertion is also true: the .25 at a higher speed, the fpe being equal, will still out perform the .30.
@@shadowmihaiu "fpe being equal" is the problem.. the 30 is designed to have more fpe. That's like saying that my escort is faster than a corvette if you take corvette's wheels off before the race.
Well put 👏 thanks.
I'm 47 haven't shot air rifes in year's. My son's growing fast looking to start him out as I grew up. Behold I come across these videos. WTH? I haven't kept up with technology in air power. Definitely not my mid 80's pump master. OR the daisy 880
Who tests anything at 10 yards.There is only one reason, heavier is better in the wind.There is a balance in air guns.First is what its going to be used for.and what max range shooting.I do not believe in shooting anything were there is risk of wounding prey.ie 177 or 22 sub 12ft pound up to 20 yards for rats.were as .30 in breaze shooting rabbit at 50 yards is better at 40 plus ft pound.you do not want any pellet to go through any prey that carries more than a few yards after its hit.To many on youtube do not show the bad placement were prey is wounded.ie.100 metres some times.I wish youtube would block over 50 yards being show.People thinking i will go do the same.
My dog understands the first video ...it was so well presented
I like to see the same tests at around 70-100 yards. I think that distance is more representative for real life situations and could give other results.
That's right !
Exactly !!!
Great Video!!! As you stated. Shot placement is #1, Penetration is #2. As an air gunner, most of my shots are focused on putting a pellet in the animal’s brain. In order to do that it is imperative that you have a round that can penetrate the skull. Your video definitely proved that the .25 cal was the better choice.
What were the velocities of each pellet? If both are making same energy, it would seem the .30 cal is handy capped by the lower velocity required for both to obtain equal FPE? I believe the sectional density of both projectiles are very close. The deciding factor is velocity. Redo test and run the 30 at the same velocity as the 25. My hypothesis is wound channel length will be similar if your testing was based on velocity. Your findings appear to be accurate based your parameters. Based on my understanding (I'm no expert) Hydrostatic shock is generally said to start at velocities above 2000-2200 fps. The temp wound cavity must expand greater than the tissue's ability to stretch and recover. Air gun hunting is most similar to bow hunting as cause of death will be from organ damage or loss of blood, not hydrostatic tissue damage. I've enjoyed your part 1 & part 2. Please do a part 3 and make your test based on velocity and repeat with same projectiles. I wonder how the extra PFE of the 30 will effect the test?
Yes, I'm not sure I see why he would match the FPE, which is the major advantage of the 30 at similar speeds, right?
Yes, if you push a heavier projectile at a similar speed versus a lighter projectile, the heavier projectile will result in more energy & wounding potential. He’s a video of a .308 (big bore) compared to a .22 caliber. The 22 is pushing a projectile at over 1800 fps. The .308 is high mid 900’s or about that velocity. The projectiles range between 40 grns for the .22 to 131 grns for the .308. The .22 makes about 300 fpe and the 30 cal airgun makes 260-270 fpe. So here is a study of weight versus velocity. The guy shooting pigs was using the wrong air gun.
30 Cal AirRifle Vs .223 Reduced Load
ua-cam.com/video/myWYeUqY9zo/v-deo.html
Correct. In the real world situation. The 30 caliber versions of a gun almost always have twice the energy of a 25. For example. The gauntlet 2 .25 shoots 40 grain slugs at around 900. The gauntlet 30 cal I use is pushing 78 grain boattail slugs at 870. The .25 I can shoot rimfire steel targets, the 30 cal will punch through the same steel targets. At same energy, the 30 cal faces more resistance due to larger surface area which acts like a parachute to slow it down faster in medium. But a 30 with 2x the energy will always outperform the 25 in terms of damage and penetration because it has more energy to continue the momentum through a target.
The moral of the story my honorable airgun friends is... increase the fpe of the .30 ? 🤔
Ok, love the premise of the video. I love the science of it. BUT, and I hope this makes sense to many reading it, FPS for the .30 was way too low compared to the .25 cal. For some reason, we have lost love for FPS and gained so much more attention and respect for FPE (not me). WHY? Well, there can't be FPE without FPS and GRs (weight). FPE is a biproduct of FPS and FPS + GRs of a projectile will determine penetration/tissue damage. Lead dome pellets are basically solids and it take a lot to deform them to any degree. The .25 cal pellet is much narrower than the .30 cal dome. The .30 cal dome is short and stubby as opposed to long and slender like the .25 cal dome you used. As a matter of fact, they might be similar in length. So with comparable FPE #'s, the .30 is easier to stop and will do LESS tissue damage/penetration. Also, the more FPS you have, the more a bullet will deform under stress when it hits water based mass such as flesh. And FPE is calculated as FPS x FPS x Grains / 450240.
So we are clear, I'm not a .30 cal fanboy by anymeans. I've always been a fan of the .25 cal moreso. I've done a ton of hunting with both. In short, i would like to see a video with both calibers being pushed to the same speed. So basically 975 fps for both, or whatever. I will add something else for all to ponder, the powder burner world does not make two different caliber guns do the same FPE. No one does that. They straight up say, .308 Winchester vs .30-06. Or .300 Win Mag vs 7mm Weatherby or .338 Lapua Mag vs .50 BMG. Reason being is that you dumb down one round to suit your argument and its not a true representation of the offerings of the "DUMBED DOWN" round.
Hi Cedric! Thank you for the post! Always good to hear from you! However, I disagree with the idea that the .30 velocity was too low. Ted Bier won several 100yd benchrest competitions using a .30 cal set at 820fps. Not to mention, using diabolo pellets, 850 is absolutely in the "sweet spot." Also, until the popularity of slugs and Power Plenums, 70-75fpe was a very common output for .30 caliber guns. There are still a million of them out there.
-Donnie
@@BakerAirguns majority of FX 30cal are around the 70fpe mark, yes the Impact can go higher, as Im sure the Maverick may. But most don't & they are very accurate. My 30cal MK1 Crown would send 50.15gr 865fps 83fpe, was awesome. But was happiest around 73
@@BakerAirguns ok so conduct the same test with the regular 25gn jsb kings in .25 running at the same speed as the 44gn in the .30. The 25gn are much more of a scaled equal to the 44gn due to the shape and size. There will be a huge difference in your results. Just because the 44gn .30's tend to be the most accurate at 850 doesn't mean that is an optimal power to obtain maximum penetration. For a long time a .25 at 40fpe was the norm.
@@satchguitar84 I no longer have access to the 70fpe .25 that I used. Nor do I have the time to test every combination of velocity and projectile known to man. I would suggest that you do your own testing if you're interested.
-Donnie
@@BakerAirguns Can you explain how hydro shock is not part of what causes permanent tissue damage? I've always been told it was and to me it seems evident with some of the wounds that high powered fire arms create. Yes I'm aware that these airguns don't come near having hydro shock worth mentioning. Also of course if you severely retard the power of a 30 cal by taking away 200mm of barrel and giving it a weak tune(even for a compact). It will not perform as well. If you were going to buy an impact gun for gun compact all the way to the sniper the .30 will be more deadly. So a .30 compact vs a .25 compact or sniper vs sniper. .30 wins every time. So I don't get what point you're trying to make here. Also your story about the pigs is no good it's not even the same gun. There are "popular" .30's that have much less power than an impact compact .30. So a smaller pellet with smaller surface area moving MUCH faster will of course be easier to push it's way farther into a medium. OBVIOUSLY but that doesn't mean "a .25 is deadlier than a .30". Which despite your qualifying statement of "in this case" or whatever the whole thing comes off as something that is likely to mislead a lot of people. I find this to be strongly indicated at times in the comment section. And of course in fact the holes in the meat are not "exactly" the same size. And to me were visibly larger too. Especially the entry. Bench shooting has nothing to do with this. A kill zone on a pig or other larger game even in the head is not sub moa. That point is compounded greatly by the fact that the "sweet spot" for .30 is easily extended to 20+ fps faster than your gun was shooting. And that your tests were performed at only 10 yards. These guns are nothing if not tunable so how they came out of the box back in the old days before the 72 or even 55cc plenums is really not pertinent information. Perhaps you have overstock of .25's (joke)
from my research it seems .25 is better close range but the .30 retains its energy at over 100yds
makes me happy that my pistol carbine is .25 and my sk19 rifle is a .30
.22, .25, .30 are the calibers i use most and .25 really is the perfect blend of cheap ammo plus respectable power
Se for os dois calibre com mesmo peso , vai ter a mesma energia disparado com o mesma velocidade, só que .30 causa mais dano etc
Love your video Donnie I been watching them since you were doing them in the basement in your house. You cut through the BS and show the true numbers love it!
Thanks, Paul! The basement vids feel like a lifetime ago now. LOLOL
-Donnie
Once again - excellent content Donnie. My Physics teacher was a Major in the British Army. At age 12 this main impressed on me the following example of Force over Area. He took a Plimsole and flayed my arse with it for being insubordinate. Disappointed with my expressed level of anguish. He changed tack, and used an Ebony Ruler on my thigh. Still frustrated by my less than adequate expression of remorse or apology. He then used a cane. The Plimsole left red marks. The ruler left a welt. The cane split my cheeks open. I still didn't apologise, but I learned my Physics lesson. Guess I got a head start on some folks. And to further support my real world experiences of training Load over Area. As a qualified Structural and Civil Engineer, I had to walk around my Construction Sites in Boots. As a trainee site manager, fresh out of TECH - My Supervising Project Director gave me a safety briefing Day 1. THE most important point - DO NOT RUN AROUND ON SITE! Here's the thing - I'm then 22 weigh 205lb and train 5 nights a week for three sports. Running, fast, was a competition. SO I ran on site. I ran over broken bricks, lengths of 4 x 2 . Formwork, Trench Shields, you name it - everything. That is, until the day I ran and had a nail come up through my boot and right through my left foot! I mean ALL the way through!!! Now, I'd run over hundreds of lumps of 4x2 and bricks and not one penetrated my boot. I ran onto ONE nail and it nearly ruined my sports career. My Boss - when he saw me at the First Aid Shed - took one look and walked away. LOAD on cross sectional area dictates penetrative force folks. Fell free to try this at home on yourself. For the armchair experts - place the hand you use the least on a hard flat surface then, taking your wifes rolling pin with the other hand....................
LOLOL That was both HILARIOUS and well informed. Very sorry about your foot, though. Thank you very much for the post! Glad you enjoyed the vid.
-Donnie
@@BakerAirguns I survived Donnie, it's didn't slow me down too long. Here's a thought folks? - ever tried pushing a 2" nail into a wall with your thumb, compare that to pushing a thumb tack into the wall?
And the final part of the equation regarding nails through boots - if I was walking and not running would my 205lbs still ensured the nail went right through my foot? Velocity matters.
And you didn't touch on DRAG Co-efficient in a fluid or mass. I'd take a .25 Cal all day every day for what I do, but I use a .22 Cal
Speed does make a difference! Weight and diameter makes a difference. Shape does make a difference. Minute and variable! Nice vid bro. Now get the bbq hot and bothered! Oh yeah!!!!!!!
Interesting video. Might be a more accurate representation if the impacts were set up at the same velocities instead fpe. That said I have taking a 240 lb wild boar at around 45 yards. I used an fx impact compact m3 with 44.75 grain .30 hybrids @ 885 fps. Great video!
It’s critically important to discuss velocity, bullet weight, and sectional density. The sectional density of a projectile is a great indicator of penetrating capability and it’s probably best to use a velocity that is typical for hunting guns for that caliber. The penetrating capabilities can vary greatly across a small range of bullet weights and velocities.
A very interesting movie. You're right in this case. I am very curious what the situation would be like shooting with the same Slugs (JSB) at a distance similar to that used for hunting, for example 50 yards.
Very interesting!! I do disagree with you about the entry wound. To me the 30 looked like there was more damage but I also feel this would play into what you are saying and that the .25 retains it's energy to cause more penetration after the initial hit. Great stuff man!!
It stands to reason, that 2 separate projectiles moving at the relative speeds necessary for both to impact with nearly identical fpe, the deeper penetration(ooooh-ahhhh) will go to the projectile that is receiving the least amount of resistance due to it’s diameter.
I’m sure you would have very similar results if you compared the .22 and .25, or the .177 with the .22, at the necessary speeds to create matching fpe.
I remember reading about, so I repeated it-using my Whitworth .375 and a variety of factory hunting loads, and my 75# compound bow. The experiment was, as I set it up, to stand 20yds away from a 5gal bucket filled with sand, and fire projectiles out of both weapons at the bucket and record the results.
Not one of the .375 hunting rounds passed through. While every field tipped arrow that I fired, did. Regardless of the overwhelming disparities in power, every bullet performed the way that it was designed by expanding from the tip back, and effectively increasing it’s overall diameter thereby increasing the resistance. While the lowly 400, or so, grain arrow, moving at roughly 300fps, producing in the neighborhood of 70ish fps-passed through every time.
This video is television worthy. Excellent job Sir Baker
30 cal is significantly slower then the 25 cal. The 25 cal will do more based on the velocity. Increase the fps of the 30 to be on par with the 25. You'll get different results.
The best comment and factual comment on here..
Donnie your choice of black shirt and black background looks like your head and arms are floating in air. That really helps with your telling of the speed of our moving thru space.
All I can say is you are brilliant. I just wish I could articulate myself as well as you do.. in my videos. And I love that you gave us informed pertinent and real world information. You didn't give any speculation or so-called hearsay. I really really love these kind of videos. I enjoy soaking up real information and progressing in my learning. I look forward to your future videos
Calm down.
You are too kind, sir. I've seen some of your stuff and you do quite well. Keep up the good work!
-Donnie
Thanks for the video !
This was exactly what I was looking for to make my choice.
Awesome video Donny! Great way to set the record straight...incidentally...people have to realize that your theory can be proven with a sowing pin...a smaller pin will pierce deeper with the same enery behind it than a larger pin..because there is less surface area to resist the entrance. Smaller...faster..less resistance ....equals deeper penetration...thats reality. In short...same energy...different mass..more penetration.
True. But that doesn't make it more lethal.
@@n2shooter it depends on Circumstance....
One more time... great video.... Thanks
Great video. That’s why I always like the slightly smaller cal but at a greater velocity. I been hunting all my life. I been shooting airguns my entire life plus powder burners for big game. I always pick a smaller cal higher velocity and a flatter shooting slug or pellet. Again great video!!!!!!
Thanks man!
-Donnie
Thanks for the demonstration and of course facts which back it up. I have not shot a 30 cal. Air rifle yet have gotten some awesome shots/kills with my condor in .25 cal. I myself was seriously impressed with overall results in the power and accuracy lf the .25
Thank you for watching! There's no doubt, your .25 Condor is a VERY capable airgun.
-Donnie
Here’s my 2 cents. I’m looking at the fx wildcat bt. The rated fpe for the 30 is 113. The rated fpe for the same gun is in 25 is 90. You’re point is valid if both calibers are traveling at the same fpe, however, most the ti,e they aren’t. The 30 is traveling about the same speed as a 25. I’m going with 30
Donnie, I love the video (actually all of them) however comparing two different calibers at the same FPE only proves that one caliber performed better at the fpe tested, not that it is "actually" better. This is a logical fallacy. When comparing the total surface area of the projectiles .30 has 44% more surface area than .25. This means that to make the test fair you should have taken the 70 fpe that you were shooting the .25 at and increased the fpe by 44% for the .30. 70 X 1.44 = 1.08. So basically you should have been shooting the .30 at 100 fpe for a more accurate comparison.
Good point, that would scale the projectiles properly. Most .25 shoot 50-60 ft lbs in the sweet spot. I know this wasn’t what was tested but I would venture to say the 30 at 850 is going to be far more accurate than the 25 at 970.
Glad you like the video. The reason I chose 70FPE is because MANY .30 airguns come set to that level. 70FPE is a lot for a .25, not a little for a .30.
-Donnie
@@timc5922 The .25 in question was my 100yd benchrest gun, though I sold it to a friend. It uses the Slug A barrel tuned exactly how it was for the video. It will produce 1/4" groups at 100 yards (indoors) regularly. I'm switching to the .30 for next year due to wind resistance. Having said that, at least indoors, it was one of the most accurate airguns I've ever owned.
-Donnie
@@BakerAirguns I believe you. I would simply say in a more typical scenario the lower speed will stabilize the pellet more. I’ve always understood the pellet sweet spot to be around 830-880 FPS though not always true I suppose.
in practice a .30 at the same plenum pressure as a .25 . the .30 does have much more output
Speed made the difference. I like .30 cal and up but my favorite is .22/25 all day. Very well put and direct video💯
I love thinking about crazy stuff like how fast we're zooming through the universe! LOL
People underestimate the power of air guns …. They are almost self defense worthy nowadays
I've been a hunter for over 50 yrs and you are right about the calibers at certain distances, out to and beyond 100yds the 30 cal is more deadly,
Donnie, your two part video series (Thank you!) are very accurate. I tested both a 25 and a 30 calibers in real hunting conditions. Folks that disagree, are entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts. I read the comments for those fellow Air-gunners that disagree with the factual results, I say please stop licking the lead pellets, you’re losing cognitive value. Ha, Ha!
Donnie I see you haven't posted in 8 months .
I just got into pcps . Why did you stop???
This is the kinda data we need please start this up again!!!! This is an amazing.
Screw the haters!!!!
You should test .22 .25 .177 .
Test slugs, pellets , what ever you can . I found this very informative. Thank you
.22lr (suppressed) beats them both. Excellent video, sir
LOLOL Can't argue against that!
-Donnie
Excellent presentation and testing.
Thank you very much!
-Donnie
You guys are gonna see me soon I have a law enforcement convention south of you. Afterward I'm driving up to get my rifle. I'll do a video of my first hunt with it and send you the link.
Great video Donnie. The question is, Did you grill and eat those loins after the test?lol
LOLOL I did not. Sat out too long.
-Donnie
My thinking is that a .30 Cal may be preferred as it will stop sooner. It seems both will get the job done. Hitting bone will certainly change the depth.
It would seem a .25 caliber may be able to take a larger animal, such as a pig or deer, perhaps with more success?
Nice review! ❤ A perfect excuse to buy both!
Do you realize how hard it is to find an 18" chested ground squirrel? Love your stuff!
Which would you rather be shot with... a 22lr or a 45. Alternatively shoot some clay and look at the wound channel ,The .30 is bigger. When hunting shurley it's all about energy transfer.
Very good presentation skills. I wish you all the best and to even better things hopefully
With the meat test, you shot the 3p cal on the right, and then the 25 on the left, so how are you measuring 3p on the left later on the second loin?
Let me first thank you for taking the time to go through this topic... with respect to the two ( calibers .25 .30) the power a air gun power plant can produce is finite and depending on its configuration and mfg each shot diminishes ( from my understanding ) as the amount of Air diminishes in the bottle..so yes a .25 with a finite power unit behind it will attain a higher fps and thus a higher velocity ... and effectively be more powerful and more deadly ( and ) the .30 will be less effective if our powers are the same .. that is my understanding. Force X mass = acceleration
Considering I am looking at going Air for some calibers I am curious on this topic because I am trying to see if I decided to hunt with PCP Air vs Powder what is my measure to determine 1.) the weapon to use and 2.) the caliber to use...
I know the following and in the powder world ... the muzzle energy of a 9mm Luger (Parabellum) round averages out to 360 ft-lb, while a .44 Remington Magnum round averages out to about 900 ft-lb. One way to think about this is as such: a foot-pound is a unit of energy equal to the amount of energy required to raise a weight of one pound a distance of one foot. So a 9mm Luger (Parabellum) round exits the barrel with kinetic energy equal to the energy required for linear vertical displacement of 360 pounds through a one foot distance, while a .44 Remington Magnum round exiting the barrel has energy equal to the amount required to displace 900 pounds over the same one foot distance. As a rule of thumb, when it comes to hunting, muzzle energy is what many hunters look at when deciding on what caliber of firearm / ammunition to select. Generally speaking, the higher the muzzle energy, the higher the stopping power.
I'd like to know the air guns and and type of ammunition used.
Also, I understand the pellets have bounced off of the pigs head (which is surprising) and that is important because when hunting you want an ethical kill, but in terms of self or home defense, I'm only concerned with stopping the threat.
The US Military switched to the 5.56 caliber to change the method of use. They could carry more rounds, but they were aiming to maim or wound so their comrades would carry the wounded off the field. It takes 1-2 people to carry a wounded soldier.
The .22 caliber has more homicide counts than any other caliber here in the US. Though small and under powered, the .22 is known to enter and ricochet inside a person's body.
That is why, I stress which air gun, ammunition and stats are important for this test.
All in all, it's a great question. Good video :)
Edit: I should also add, a heavy object will keep its energy longer than a lighter object.
So a pellet or slug which is heavier should be more effective at a longer distance, right?
I'm going to try to add my 2 cents in as simple as I can, as the man said in his video, don't hate me hate physics. when it comes to ballistic performance, there is a golden ratio of penetration (INSERT noise here... lol) and energy transfer. Over penetration severely hinders the effectiveness of terminal ballistics. What you really want to aim for is having the right amount of penetration so the projectile has the right amount of momentum (I believe that would be the right term to use I'm not quite sure) upon impact to release all of its energy into the target, and in so doing will create a bigger wound cavity.
Also, over-penetration can cause collateral damage further downrange possibly causing more harm than good. I hope this makes sense and I don't sound like an idiot.
Firstly, I am not shooting oak strips - nothing I shoot has an inch thick skull of a dense wood. Secondly, I dont need to shoot extra long through the the target of solid muscle/flesh. Thats not going to kill an animal. What kills in a head shot is getting through the skull from one side as a minimum. If it exits ok but thats not necessarily a need or a myst. If your engine room shooting then penetration (in/out) might be an argument.
I use .177 sub 12 a lot (UK based). One thing I have noticed is that a .177 8.44 grain pellet on certain quarry zips through and they flight. But further out, they drop without a twitch. ALL your shots were ultra close and its not likely live quarry will be that close. Not impossible but not likely. Pellet type (if we stick with air guns) can also have very different effects. I prefer some sort of hollow point for close quarry and maybe dome if I need to reliably stretch the distance for tight groups where HPs open up on group.
Penetration is one thing. Overpenetration is another. If you don't need 24" of penetration why use 24" of penetration!
A lot of my stuff is close range in very tight boundaries where neighbours can be 180° to the shooting point i.e. residential housing estates. I don't want over penetration. I just want penetration. I guess what I am saying is that max penetration is NOT the king. Its the RIGHT penetration for the job in hand that is king. That is relative. So quarry type, head or engine room, bone, distance, pellet type amongst others dictate your needs. SAYING that the deepest penetration is the one and only ultimate focus or decider is flawed.
Almost all ammo types offer differing projectiles - some with very explicit performance requirements. Many are penetration. Many are expansion. Many are hybrids. Shape, design, materials, speeds, BC efficiency..... so many factors. You are too focused on one thing that IS NOT the king. Your job dictates what is king.
As you stated initially, it is shot placement that counts but you can then fine tune the whole deal with the rifle type, ammo type and quarry type etc. to be as effective as possible. Its a BIGGER picture.
What I’d like to see now is the exact same test at longer distances. For example, at 50 yards and 100 yards that would be very interesting.
Also, at what point longer distances does the pellet lose penetrating power. As an example, what distance should you not attempt to kill an animal due to the loss of velocity of the pellet.
Glad I decided to go with the 25 cal m3 instead of the 30. Glad you guys had a Bronze one at the show In Kalamazoo. Keep them flat and fast!
Sectional density is greater with a longer slim bullet. The smaller front area of 25 also helps.
It would be interesting to see a hard pointed tip. Such as the H&N Hornet.
This is a great follow-up to the original video! I'd still like to see the difference, if any, as you increase the distance to the target.
Liked this video just from hearing you say what you say in the first 1:00
i checked google search about hydrostatic shock juxtaposed to my view point. a search says consensus is around 2600 fps to begin generating hydrostatic shock. and so my view point is being aware of definitions of hydrostatic shock and hydrolic shock. if i was a bucher i would have tested my method on buchered pigs head first to figure how to make it work. would be interesting to use butchers air rifle and data to see if it duplicates on butchered heads. i analized this in search of power modding a 30 cal to its max fps with fpe so out side of context of 70 fpe maybe do a vid on the 30 and 25 both doing 935 pfs using the above mentioned ammo. its fun stuff
Preach, Baker Airguns, Preach! Another awesome video and demonstration.
Thanks you very much!
-Donnie
Shooting at meat!?! Your the best! Bought my Dreamline classic from you earlier this year, absolutely loving it! 25 cal of course. Great video thanks.
Right on man! Glad you dig it. They're great guns.
-Donnie
I too love the .25 Dreamline Classic and bought it from Baker Airguns
I love the smaller caliber, lighter projectile, higher velocity generally equates too more deadly videos. You are a much-needed man of science in this world. Though I do firmly believe in hydrostatic shock. As you simply put a lot of guns cannot generate the velocity needed to achieve such a violent reaction.
Thank you very much!
-Donnie
You easily convinced me on my next caliber pcp rifle to buy, thanks!
if you have the same output your right , but from 177 to 9 mm in fx the power is going lineair up with the caliber ,with same plenum pressure setting
I watched your part 1 and now I watched your part 2 I have to agree with you. Very thorough review Thank you for that.
Right on! Glad you liked it!
-Donnie
Please do a video at practical-useful ranges: like 50 and 100 yards. 👍
Donnie, it's a great video like usually but I was wondering, how about comparing .30 and .25 with equal weight and fps. NSA has .30 43.8grain slugs as well as .25 43.5grains same metal density that would be very interesting. Considering somehow the slight difference in weight witch is 0.3grains
Different weights @ the same speed...heaviest wins every time.
I think there is something to be said for the total energy, though. The .30 caliber may not penetrate as far, but it will impart more shock into the body. These shock waves disrupt nerve impulses, damage organs, and cause concussive injury - particularly in the brain. Am I off base here?
And its because of this, velocity squared x weight of projectile devided by area equals pressure. Smaller object produce more pressure than bigger objects.
It's also a historic fact that they've been through this before in the days of black powder. An elephant gun in those days was a four bore!
After the Advent of smokeless powder, something along the lines of a 416 Rigby would usually do the trick. A smaller bullet to be sure but moving at a much higher velocity!
Actually it’s about sufficient energy and bullet construction. The used 4 bores because they were only shooting lead projectiles back then.
The proven forums on dangerous game is 375 cal dia as close to 4500 to 5000 ft lbs of energy you can handle.
For what is considered a stopper . 45 cal with 470 or 50 haveing a more visible effect. 500 gr projectiles at 2150. Although many caliber can produce more velocity and energy . At that level it’s less positive that bullet construction will hold up to produced straight line penetration.
Steel jacked hard lead cores would peel or banna at over 2150 and veer off course. It’s all about paying the right projectiles and shot to reach the vital. In charging dangerous came straight line penatration with a flat nose solid is what performs best. You always brain elephants . Cape buffalo you may in some cases choose a expanding bullet for your fist well placed shot you patiently waited for. Then on flat nosed solids of large dia are called for.
Love your channel Don. Thanks for selling me my FX Dreamline. One factor you may have overlooked in this video. Regarding hydro static shock. The military, the FBI and the medical personal who are experts on the lethal effects of projectiles are considering the effects only on the human body. A .25 caliber projectile will have an almost immeasurable greater effect on a squirrel. On par with shooting a human with a bowling ball. Imagine. I believe hydro static shock becomes a huge factor when considering the relationship between projectile and target.
You are correct Sir. You could look at it like this if you were in a falling elevator, whats the best way to impact the ground? lay flat spreading out the energy of the impact so not one area is subject to that same energy concentrated on one area doing far more damage. Basically with the .25 cal vs .30 cal your concentrating the same force of energy onto a smaller area with the .25 cal thus for less dispersal is gained on impact so it has to travel further with its smaller size to disperse that same energy. Technically speaking at the same speed the .30 caliber would have considerably more energy, yet the .25 still has to travel further with its smaller area to disperse its energy. Try standing on a picket fence point with one foot vs standing with one foot on a sixteen penny nail. Which would you think you would sustain less damage? Might be painful on the fence board point but i doubt you'd feel it tomorrow at all. that nail though? Ouch, as it'd easily go all the way through... Many magicians and other weirdos walk on a bed of a bunch of nails. You never see them try it with just one nail and we all know why. same rules apply as physics are same basic principals.. Great video and great perspective to describe effects of pellets. Thx and keep em coming...
Penetration does not necessarily mean more lethal. Smaller faster moving bullets have deeper penetration the most lethal projectiles dump there energy internally. The internal damage from a bigger slower moving projectile is normally more devastating. That's called stopping power. That's the main reason we use hollow points
The people in these comments refuse to believe anything other than what they already believe. As someone who spent a year doing these types of tests i 100% agree penetration is the key to killing power with this types of rifles/pistols and projectiles. You will never convince the naysayers
A 25 goes deeper than a 30
A 22 goes deeper than a 25
A 1.77 goes deeper than a 22, 25 and a 30
You will get debating from anyway you do the testing , they want you to give the thirty caliber more , Velocity and FPE , you can do the same thing with the 25 Caliber ! This was comparing two Air Rifles , so the testing was pretty darn fair ! People sound like the never ending testing for the 9mm Luger and the 45 acp ! 9mm will penetrate , Uhhhhhhhh Uhhhhhhhh Uhhhhhhhh more , Couldn't resist that ; and the 45 acp at the same energy level will make a bigger hole ! Also those are some hard boards for a pellet to go through ! Thanks for the information and the cool videos !
Most beautifully conducted test I have seen so far on airgun terminal ballistics. Your results are not at all counter intuitive, by the way. There are some other factors in real world usage, and maybe that is what causes difference of opinion for some.
One, a bigger caliber usually runs at higher FPE, so some might say that we are comparing a 'hot' 25 with a mild 30. If we extrapolate your result backwards, it may be argued that a 177 may be the most lethal caliber. In the (now dead) Airgun Yellow Forum long ago, there was a member called 'Brian in Mi' who modded a 177 to 40 FPE. Imagine what that can shoot through!
Secondly, I observed in the same forum that most folks who hunt small animals, go for rabbits and squirrels predominantly. For such small animals, the difference in penetration potential between a 177 and a 22 springer means nothing. Either will dispatch with ease. Some folks favored 22s as it has more 'smack' / energy transfer - supposedly anchors quarry better.
I should say though, that some very experienced hunters did state that they liked the 177 more. The 'smack' didn't really work reliability. I have to agree. If 'smack' is so crucial, why not dump the airgun in favour of a slingshot? 😉
what I want is speed of each pellet as it left gun
If you can push two slugs of different weights at the same speed, the heaviest one wins every time. Pushing big stuff fast is our addiction.
Rifle 1: 50 gr slug @ 800fps = 72 lb of energy
Rifle 2: 30 gr slug @ 1,100fps = 80 lb of energy
So, the smaller slug has more energy because it is traveling faster. If Rifle 1 could push the slug the same speed (1,100 fps) it would generate 134 lbs of energy, and be far more effective down-range.
Here's the kinetic energy formula to try for yourself (works on grains of arrows, bullets, pellets, etc.):
Speed X Speed X Weight ÷ 450240 = LB FT Energy
(example: 800 X 800 X 50 ÷ 450240 = 72)
U had me at "Five Thousand Miles"
The 30 cal needs more power to be able to compare. Are you using the appropriate power for the individual calibers?
Well im so glad to have found your work and i was thinking bout going to a 30, cal but i think for my use im staying with my .25 cal
Great pair of videos! I was a bit surprised at the differences so much in favor of the .25. I will need to go back and watch, but I thought I saw at one point a larger wound channel in the gel with the .30, but the angle made it hard to see. As for the meat, it did look to me like a larger entrance wound with the 30 caliber, as well as a bigger impact (how far they moved) in both the wood and the meat. But I'm not certain, it was hard to tell, and I will watch again. However, one thing is guaranteed: the entrance wound is going to be 20% larger assuming no expansion in either case. Now, of course, with the higher FPS of the .25- needed in order to keep energy identical- you are more likely to have expansion of the .25 to equal the diameter or slightly exceed the .30 diameter of the other. As for penetration, obviously, IF all other things are equal, more is better. (Do I hear moaning? Weird! ) However, an extra 20% penetration or say 20"- will be of zero benefit if the object being penetrated is only, say, 16". Or maybe 12"(how thick is even a human? Much less a rabbit?) The projectile will simply waste that extra penetration in a tree or ground. It will be particularly worthless if both projectiles penetrate, but one has a 20% larger entrance and maybe exit wound. But again, if the higher velocity of the .25 enables it to expand to = or exceed the diameter of the .30.
In this case, the difference in caliber is so small that it is really hard for me to eyeball much difference in wound channels, particularly after the higher velocity has most likely expanded the .25 more. Still, I just watched it again, and it looks to me like a larger entry hole at the moment of impact, as well as lifted higher off the table, with the .30. But, maybe it is me.
There is no doubt you have more penetration in all cases with the .25. Which would be useful if the extra penetration was needed. OTOH, if th FPS are increased just slightly, which would give higher energy for the .30 but still lower FPS, that would be interesting!
I sure would like to know if the .25- at the same energy as the .30- would have penetrated those hog's heads. Or, if the .30, with just slightly higher FPS would have done so.
Now, speaking of beginning wound channel size, comparing .25 to .35 or .45- adjusted for equal energy- that would be interesting indeed! Or, for that matter, how about .177? Any way, GREAT VIDEO, with surprising results!
😂
OK?@@catherineharris4746
I'm sure there are a variety of valid opinions on the subject but my 2 cents.
I prefer .25 cal for my personal use of pellet rifles. Most modern springers can shoot it fast enough to be effective on small game and PCPs can throw it with enough authority to take Hogs.
Any ammo larger than .25 takes on a significant price increase and I will likely use a rimfire or bow on the larger game. I have no doubt my preferences are based on regional factors like laws and geography. Here in Michigan, I rarely encounter game at great distances (20-40 yards) more often than not.
Thank you for doing this test for us 🇺🇸
Great video. I have always not liked the bullet drop of the .30 cal at longer distances. I'll take the .25 every time.
I'm still not convinced. Example. Seting aside a "head shot", my brother has a vintage 35 Remington carbine lever action. When using a blunt nose bullet, a deer drops where its shot. When using a pointed bullet of the same grain, the bullet passes through, and the deer keeps running. So, it's obvious "knock down power" is important. Saying that, conduct the same test at 50 yards and see if the .25 caliber pellet is the winner. And then at 100 yards. What caliber retains more energy at those distances?
That's a sweet lookin pork loin. I'm really impressed with your results. Airguns have come a long way. And thank you for the science aspect .very interesting.
Interesting… as I sit here with a .177, .22, .25 & .30 cal pellets lined up on my coffee table. Just watched a guy take an Elk from the back of the head at 60 yards or so with a .30 cal… dropped like a sack of potatoes! You are correct, looking at the size and weight of the .30 cal, it’s not intuitive 🤣
My .30 barrel is on order for my FX Impact Mk3 so soon I’ll know for myself!
Only question I had was the difference in barrel length. The .25 was shot thru a longer barrel and more FPS vs the .30 cal was a shorter 500mm and at lower FPS? Not arguing your point… just curious if all things were equal… love to see those results as well. I guess ft lbs of energy only count on small game? Great vid!!
Thank you! Barrel length and velocity are irrelevant to the testing. I set the energy the same, which was the purpose of the test. In physics force (energy) is what does work. For an equal test, only the energy needed to be the same. Glad you liked the vid!
-Donnie
First, I appreciate your time, and love adding science to this project, but, yes there is a but.... why are you testing the .25 to its max energy level and not the .30 to its max? if we want a, what is deadlier comparison, let them stand on their own merit and max power. In science everyone knows if you put the same amount of pressure on a smaller surface it will penetrate further. Knowing this, your hypothesis is skewed in favor of the .25 because you stifled the full potential of the .30's, max capability but not the .25. Sorry, It is what it is. Laws of science, are pretty straight forward. My .25 can hit over 95 fpe with the right projectile, and rifle. my .30 however can produce over 220 fpe with the right projectile and rifle, and at that energy, it will do way more damage and effectively be more deadly than my .25. And yes I love shooting comparing then potential of everything I shoot. In a real hunting situation, it is important to match gun and ammo to game, determine your surroundings for over penetration in case of pass throughs, and as you said choosing your target and aiming properly is key. but in 63 years, shooting for 50, have found Dead is Dead. Do not take a shot you are unsure of! Practice, then practice some more, because regardless of what caliber is used, You are the Instrument as to what is deadliest!
Love the Video Brother! One day, when I grow up, I just may take up making some videos myself....Keep doing what your doing!
Thanks man! Glad you like the video. 70ft-lbs is not the max for the .25 caliber. It's just a realistic overlap. If you do make videos, be sure to let me know. I'll watch.
-Donnie
Great demo good job.25 winner 👍🏽🤙🏽
Great video, however I think its important for any new airgun people to undersand that yes the 25 is better to a point it depends on what your hunting and the power of your gun, a 25 max potential is lower than the max potential of a 30 cal. My concern the test is a little misleading . Kinda like telling the stronger bigger kid to take it easy so the other kids get a trophy. run the test at matching FPS and things change. . Bottom line is if your trying to chose an airgun cal for hunting always consider the full potential of the gun for the caliber not whether you can restrict it to run a test. A 30 cal will not penetrate further at the same FPE as a 25 until the 25 has to travel so fast it destabilizes . you can put a whole lot more power behind a 30 cal making much it much more deadly at the same speed and leaves the 25 taking his ball and going home.. 😮😅
I'm will obtain my first ever, PCP pellet launcher from your website. Because of your straight talking, periodically humorous, test videos like these, parts 1 and 2.
Clearly, given your listed prices.
Thanks for your video presentations, sir.
Bonus:
A yellow jacket, too.
Carnivorous bees.
Go TECH! Sting 'em, lol
Nerds and geeks unite.
I like your style....
I know, that you know....
We can't count that high 🤣
I'm interested in whether the projectile mushroomed?
Can we get Barnes to make some copper hollow points?
Great point proven on penetration.
Steered me away from .30 on a future purchase
Now I'm seriously considering .22 just for ammo availability and shot count per fill.
You earned my sub
Very interesting
Can we know about the 22vs 25 also
Im curious what happens if you match the speeds of the pellets (at around 940fps at the muzzle) instead of ft.lb. And both calibers tested and compared on different distances up to 120 yards. Then the bc comes in to play.
Thats why the Huben K1 in .25 with 140joule (33shots/fill) is more deadly than the .30 FX dreamline 105joule and even as the unregulated AEA HPmax in .35 with an dropping peak over 200joule but under 140joules after 12shots.
Thank you for this video!!!!! This series was awesome!! This topic is why I believe the next big "wave" in our hobby is gonna be high velocity .177cal heavy grain slugs. Reason I think this is because of the velocity you can achieve coupled with the penetration, it'd be like shooting needles through butter😅.
And increased shot count is a huge bonus with the 177
That gets to physics too.
The area of the bore / base of the slug at a 'standard' pressure (say 3000 PSI) has a direct correlation with the possible FPE. And say you want a sufficient velocity to give a reasonable trajectory, something under transonic which a lot of shooters find is between 900 to 950 FPS. The weight of the projectile becomes limited under these conditions and ONLY increasing the air pressure can allow increased projectile weight (currently 4500 PSI, but unless your filling you gun direct from a compressor you have to drop it down to, say 3800 to 4000 PSI. I have several air rifles that operate at 4K and I only get TWO fills out of a 30 min SCBA air tank filled to 4500 for example).
Just as a bigger bore hydraulic piston can exert more for e with the same pressure, a bigger bore barrel using the same pressure can push a heavier slug because there's more area for the force to work on... But even there there's only so much energy available and it's quickly reached which is why bigger bore slugs get shorter and lose BC, there's just not enough energy in air to push an equivalent shaped to a smaller bore slug.
Not sure why I wasn't subbed, but here we are now... Who is coming to NY next month (end of July) for the airgun show? I saw it on your calendar and plan on attending at least one of the days.
I'm pretty sure we can't make it this year. May change though.
-Donnie
Certainly an interesting video. Thanks for sharing. 👍
Ok, if I need more penetration, I wouldn't trade my 30 cal fx for a 25.....I'd switch from soft lead pellets to a pointed, harder lead slug. Realistically, who tf would pick a pellet for a 300 pound pig? Now as for .30 not more deadly on the small game it was designed for? I call bullshit all day long as this gun does far more damage at 55 ft/lbs than my .22 mag which makes 300 ft/lbs energy.
Also, has your customer never seen 'No Country for old men?'
Well, let's look at what White Muzzleloaders used to call THUMP. My .30 carnivore swings hanging cans more vigorously than ANY of my other break barrels. Gives my Marauder a good run too... I've not penetration tested on anything reliable yet, but for small game, I'm totally comfortable.