Ex-Evangelicals or Ex-Fundamentalists?
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- Опубліковано 19 бер 2024
- We discuss the recent book by Sarah McCammon, "The Exvangelicals: Loving, Living, and Leaving the White Evangelical Church." What are we to do with all these stories from ex-evangelicals? Would ex-fundamentalists be a more accurate term?
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At this point evangelical is an incredibly imprecise label. One thing that helped to muddy the waters is fundamentalists rebranding themselves as evangelicals.
We need new terms. Good luck with that.
It’s not an imprecise label to ‘non-churched’ moderate Americans - to them it means extremist Christo-nationalists who want a theocracy
I’ve seen this issue replicated many times in the church, and again in the world. Jesus is The Way, but a cult used that tag so we can’t. I have been both Unitarian and Charismatic in my past, but align most closely to a BG-style evangelical congregation because we both prioritize what I would call the essentials of the faith - what I’d like to call fundamental Christianity, but can’t because that word is associated with a group who prioritize other things. And at this point I’m not willing to give up another label. I remain an Evangelical. They can get their own label for this political chimera.
@@tinear4Maybe Core Christianity would be a possible name for what you describe as "fundamental Christianity"?
It would help if more people knew that the Greek words from which “evangelical” is derived mean “good messenger” or “bringer of good news.”
Kaitlyn's points are just plain great!
Skye makes a good point about people coming in. People like Jesus. They are put off by the politics that have become synonymous with the church.
Yet not one word about the Black Church actually using their Churches to stump for Democrats.
I'm absolutely with Kaitlyn on this. I identify a lot with other people who have rejected the "evangelical" label, but our stories "rhyme" rather than "repeat". I am convinced that the more we discuss our experiences within the Church (both the American versions AND those abroad), the better off we'll all be.
I agree. Even though my story in the church was unique to me, whenever I tell it, someone will inevitably hear me reference a teaching or phrase and say “you too?”. You can see patterns across the stories of different people from the same era, presumably because they came from the same books and conferences. If you can identify a bad pattern, you can make positive changes to teaching methods, but you need the stories in order to see the patterns.
I’m a born again Christian in the absolute biblical sense for over 20 years now. And I left my church about 4 years ago now. I held a leadership position and I figured out that my marriage was irreparably over. (It was my decision not my ex wife’s)
I did the right thing by telling my associate pastor that I was planning on filing for a divorce and that because of that I needed to step down from my position. The conversation did not go well. I was offered counseling and when I refused the counseling because my mind was made up. The vitriol that was spewed at me was unimaginable! I’m by no means the best Christian or really even that good of a Christian in terms of piety. And I felt really lost there for a while… but I’m glad that I stuck to my position and didn’t go back into a horrible marriage.
I’m still putting the pieces of my life back together, and the storm is still raging in my life. And for a while I walked away from Jesus. But I never stopped loving Jesus, and I’m glad to have found a community of people who reject fundamentalism but who still haven’t walked away from Jesus. I really needed that!
We have a family friend who had to divorce her husband for the safety of her kids.
Let’s just say she did not receive support for that decision.
TELLING THE VISION FROM JESUS (of the foot cut off on cankered gold and silver that did not bleed JAMES 5) is HOW the 144,000 shall be sealed in their foreheads, and in no other way. In scipture (KJV) the 144,000 are The noise of the cry of the fishgate, the 12 tribes of Israel, 12,000 in each tribe. The Government of Israel. The REMNANT. JESUS CHRIST appeared to you all (7) Seven Times and you say He did not appear to you. Jesus Christ spoke to all of you and you say He did not speak to you in the Holy Spirit saying: TELL THE VISION, TELL THE VISION, TELL THE VISION, TELL THE VISION AND YOU SHALL NOT NEED THE MARK. TELL THE VISION AND YOU SHALL HEAL WITHOUT MONEY. NO TIME TO TALK ALLAH? YOU WANT WAR (Said Jesus in the HOLY SPIRIT to you ALL) Jesus appeared to the 144,000 young virgin children giving them these words (Prophecies) Bad Boom, Boom, Mark of the 10, The Black, Death, War, Javol, Hell. Bad Boom is (Ezekial) The Wheel in the middle of the wheel [A Nuke in a green volvo in Chicago} BOOM (Ezekial) Fire infolding in itself (The bad boom in Chicago shall detonate in Marina City Towers and all in Chicago shall evacuate that city, HELL begins that moment. MARK OF THE TEN (The OMNI branded Barcode Mark of satan comes with temptation of $32,523. THE BLACK: All who take the OMNI mark shall get a skin disease revealing the ashes (DEATH) in their souls as gray scabs that itch on those faces and loins and bodies: DEATH: The unwashed ashes in your souls, JESUS revealed this to all of you.JAVOL: The enforcers of the Mark of the beast, the OMNI. WAR: You are holding WAR agains JESUS right now by not telling the vision of the valley, the vision with the ORANGE RED in the middle of the lower dark green leaves on the palm trees on the right side of the valley of decision. NONE of the 144,000 are grown adults and the 144,000 speak ONLY when the HOLY SPIRIT of JESUS CHRIST tells them what to say. They do not speak to their own parents nor to any of you because you do not want to listen. The 144,000 are all ABOVE YOU.
You have experienced what happens when JESUS removes the HEDGE from you soul. On October 10, 2005 JESUS removed the HEDGE from your soul as you lay in bed, and when the hedge was removed from you you could not move and you were paralyzed. In the moment JESUS removed the hedge from you, Jesus allowed SATAN to attack you with a fire that satan can pull down from heaven. and that fire that satan pulled down from heaven went into you and spoke loudly in your mind saying: I WILL TURN AND TOSS YOU VIOLENTLY LIKE A BALL. This happened again to you on March 31, 20202, the HEDGE was removed from you, your were paralyzed, and Satan put in your brain the words DON'T TELL THE VISION. It is sadly possible that you thought it was the voice of god, and it did happen, so you denying it wont be a surprised as it is very very embarrassing. THAT removing the HEDGE is how JESUS falls any of those trying to harm the 144,000. NO WEAPON SHALL PROSPER AGAINST US.
Those who love Jesus will keep His commandments.. or so Jesus claimed... You might know better..
One of those commandments , Thou shalt not take the LORDS NAME IN VAIN...you do every time you say JESUS, and simultaneously DENY HE APPEARED TO YOU SAYING TELL THE VISION.
@@amritaasher3855
@stytheknight Wish you better days ahead! Tough story and experience, may your message from all that you went through benefit those in your community.
Kaitlyn is on it lately!!! Her willingness to engage in conversations re "evangelicalism" and "Christian Nationalism" lately, by actually engaging the best arguments and not the worst has been a breath of fresh air. Keep it up!
I grew up in the evangelical world. "Prayed the prayer" with my Sunday school teacher when I was 6. Was very active in my local church and youth group through high school. When I went to college, surprise, I came to believe that those who brought me up in the church were lame, backward in many of their beliefs, and lacking in intellectual heft. Honestly, I had a sense of self-righteous pride that my little suburban gray-haired church was out of step, and I was now on the cutting edge of hip, urban, culturally relevant, and intellectually superior Christianity.
Fast forward to 2020.
My culturally relevant church (who just so happens to be made up almost entirely of hip, urban, upper class, young working professionals with young families, just like me) shuts its doors and keeps them closed even past the date upon which the Supreme Court rules churches to be essential. They do everything in their power to "protect their witness" in the city, yet in doing so, they forsake the command in Hebrews 10:25, to continue meeting together (online church is not a real replacement).
Meanwhile, my old, small, suburban, culturally irrelevant church is bending over backwards to find ways to bring people together in Word and Sacrament. They remained consistent in their calling and mission even when the world turned upside down. It was deeply humbling to me in my own pride and self-righteousness.
I'm back to attending that old little "evangelical" church, and while it still lacks edginess and cultural relevancy, I have found it to be a beautiful example of "a long obedience in the same direction".
Have they got some things wrong over the years? Absolutely! But as Spurgeon puts it;
"If I had never joined a church till I had found one that was perfect, I should never have joined one at all. And the moment I did join it, if I had found one, I should have spoiled it, for it would not have been a perfect church after I had become a member of it. Still, imperfect as it is, it is the dearest place on earth to us..If we love Christ as we think we do, as we pretend we do, we shall love his Church and people...The church is not perfect, but woe to the man who finds pleasure in pointing out her imperfections! Christ loved his church, and let us do the same.”
Honestly a lot of us just met outside during the worst of the pandemic.
“Room” air changes per hour outside are hard to calculate, but with a breeze they’re so frequent that it’s often nearly as good as a clean room.
Of course there’s lots of other stuff in the air, so it’s not “clean” but when it comes to not sharing viruses it’s amazing!
@@Justanotherconsumer we pleaded with the leadership of our urban church to hold open outdoor services at the public park a block from our church building. They declined because of how it would "look" to our neighbors.
@@StumblingThroughItAllbizarre.
That your neighbors would see you doing something shocking like… drinking wine in public, maybe?
There are definitely things to be concerned about if it looks performative, but especially mid-pandemic?
Our church did a drive in Easter service that was kind of… eh, it was an experience, but we tried.
I’m on the other side of this pandemic response. I live in an area that had an extreme surge in April-May 2020. I’m a respiratory therapist and we were totally overwhelmed with very sick patients at the hospital. Yes, it was mostly older individuals who were dying, but we had some very sick individuals in their 20s, 30s, and 40s as well. It was overwhelmingly frightening in those early months. We didn’t know how it spread, we didn’t know if we would get it, and the bring it home to family members.
Meanwhile many at my church had latched onto conspiracy theories. Some argued with me that what I was experiencing at the hospital was all fake news. “Look at how empty the parking lot is, it can’t be real!” at a time when visitors were prohibited and elective procedures were canceled. I heard some suggest we should just have COVID parties and get it over with. Then the rumors spread about the chips in the vaccines. When they decided to move from meeting in the parking lot to meeting back inside, I decided to start attending a church that was still meeting outside. It took me months to get over the trauma of that time.
@@redhen689thank you for your service.
I tend to think of myself as fitting into ex-vangelical, having deconstructed and still reconstructing. But my story is not at all like these. There were the occsaional object lessons that are bad, and some bad messaging, but it wasn't the way these people describe.
I didn't change because I was unhappy with the way things were. I enjoyed my life that way. It felt right. The bad stuff was there, but I didn't notice it until after my beliefs started changing. It was after I realized that I wasn't right wing politically, and that a lot of what I was taught as Christianity was right wing politics.
It was also after a severe personal trauma, one that left me housebound for a while. It was after talking with people who were harmed by beliefs that I realized weren't really necessary. It was realizing that the Bible didn't say a lot of those things I was taught it said.
It was far more me realizing I was wrong than feeling traumatized by the church. This is unlike my cousins, who encountered sexual discrimination and harassment. Or my sister who saw how finding out her best friend was gay meant the church abandoned him. I didn't notice those sorts of things until after I had already realized that some teachings were wrong.
TELLING THE VISION FROM JESUS (of the foot cut off on cankered gold and silver that did not bleed JAMES 5) is HOW the 144,000 shall be sealed in their foreheads, and in no other way. In scipture (KJV) the 144,000 are The noise of the cry of the fishgate, the 12 tribes of Israel, 12,000 in each tribe. The Government of Israel. The REMNANT. JESUS CHRIST appeared to you all (7) Seven Times and you say He did not appear to you. Jesus Christ spoke to all of you and you say He did not speak to you in the Holy Spirit saying: TELL THE VISION, TELL THE VISION, TELL THE VISION, TELL THE VISION AND YOU SHALL NOT NEED THE MARK. TELL THE VISION AND YOU SHALL HEAL WITHOUT MONEY. NO TIME TO TALK ALLAH? YOU WANT WAR (Said Jesus in the HOLY SPIRIT to you ALL) Jesus appeared to the 144,000 young virgin children giving them these words (Prophecies) Bad Boom, Boom, Mark of the 10, The Black, Death, War, Javol, Hell. Bad Boom is (Ezekial) The Wheel in the middle of the wheel [A Nuke in a green volvo in Chicago} BOOM (Ezekial) Fire infolding in itself (The bad boom in Chicago shall detonate in Marina City Towers and all in Chicago shall evacuate that city, HELL begins that moment. MARK OF THE TEN (The OMNI branded Barcode Mark of satan comes with temptation of $32,523. THE BLACK: All who take the OMNI mark shall get a skin disease revealing the ashes (DEATH) in their souls as gray scabs that itch on those faces and loins and bodies: DEATH: The unwashed ashes in your souls, JESUS revealed this to all of you.JAVOL: The enforcers of the Mark of the beast, the OMNI. WAR: You are holding WAR agains JESUS right now by not telling the vision of the valley, the vision with the ORANGE RED in the middle of the lower dark green leaves on the palm trees on the right side of the valley of decision. NONE of the 144,000 are grown adults and the 144,000 speak ONLY when the HOLY SPIRIT of JESUS CHRIST tells them what to say. They do not speak to their own parents nor to any of you because you do not want to listen. The 144,000 are all ABOVE YOU.
You have experienced what happens when JESUS removes the HEDGE from you soul. On October 10, 2005 JESUS removed the HEDGE from your soul as you lay in bed, and when the hedge was removed from you you could not move and you were paralyzed. In the moment JESUS removed the hedge from you, Jesus allowed SATAN to attack you with a fire that satan can pull down from heaven. and that fire that satan pulled down from heaven went into you and spoke loudly in your mind saying: I WILL TURN AND TOSS YOU VIOLENTLY LIKE A BALL. This happened again to you on March 31, 20202, the HEDGE was removed from you, your were paralyzed, and Satan put in your brain the words DON'T TELL THE VISION. It is sadly possible that you thought it was the voice of god, and it did happen, so you denying it wont be a surprised as it is very very embarrassing. THAT removing the HEDGE is how JESUS falls any of those trying to harm the 144,000. NO WEAPON SHALL PROSPER AGAINST US.
People often don't question the beliefs they're brought up with until they experience some kind of trauma. But the way I see it, there is no measure of freedom that does not carry with it an equal measure of responsibility. And our freedom to believe as we choose comes with a responsibility to always think critically about what we believe and why we believe it. If nothing else, doing so makes life a richer and more interesting journey.
@@wesleycurryii3341 You must be American? I like to say that America is one great big asylum for the religiously insane.
And, finally, I agree there have always been people leaving the Evangelical movement, and that we aren't hearing as much from those who join. However, I don't think we can assume things are the same as before. And a lot of that is for the reasons you guys have talked about. Evangelicalism embraced Trump, antivax/antimask rhetoric, Christian Nationalism. And more and more people know people who are LGBT, and thus leave because of how they get treated. Also, there is more rejecting of the racism that a lot of evangelical organizations aren't rejecting. More sexism and sexual harassment are being called out. And Americans in general are becoming less religious.
I do think American Evangelicalism is collapsing because of these things, and the refusal to fix them. I know far more people who have stopped going to church than I ever did as a kid. Adults stuck with the church. Now, even while they are still Christians, they no longer feel they can be in the church they grew up in.
While I have problems with Evangelicalism for other reasons, right now, I think there is a huge problem of sin, and people realizing that so many Evangelicals don't believe what they taught their kids to believe. And there is not only a lack of desire to fix things, but an embracing of the other side.
I literally changed my X profile on Sunday from "Evangelical" (to specific denoms). My views are same as 1970 but the label was now uncomfortable
Honestly feeling the same way about the label “Christian” at times.
Really have to work on reclaiming that one and not let it be synonymous with Matthew 6 issues.
Nancy French’s appearance on the Good Faith podcast discussing her memoir Ghosted is a nice supplement to this conversation
There is more focus on the people that are leaving because of the people who want to convince you that the rapture is very very close, because of the great falling away that happens right before. It falls in the same category with moving the embassy to Jerusalem and other things people are doing to try to make the end times happen on their schedule.
Voting a strong "yay" for news of the butt. Christian women, stop pretending to be all sugar and spice; Phil's news segments are hilarious, and, in the sagacious words of Ali G, help to "keep it real." :)
I get the frustration from Evangelicals over all the bad press, and the desire to get more distance from the bad parts, or for there to be the positive, redemptive stories to give it balance. Believe me, I know, I was an Evangelical most of my life.
But I think Evangelicals need to own it. Evangelicalism has hurt so many people, and continues to hurt them. There are countless people being hurt *right now*. I think it lets off the church too easily to forgive those who harm because of ignorance, or cluelessness, or "well, I'm just a fallen person". Furthermore I firmly believe that there's troubling questions about the complicity of the institutional structure and perhaps even the very dogma itself that perpetuates harm. I'm not sure there is any healthy way to practice spirituality that believes in eternal damnation, or (often) upholds patriarchal leadership, or is virulently anti-science, or is constantly baited into a culture war because "everyone who doesn't agree with us is lost and needs to hear the gospel".
And furthermore, If the church is indeed the gateway to the divine, that draws a whole new paradigm around what is and isn't acceptable. I don't think you can really say, "well on balance this is a net good, even given this mountain of horror stories of abuse and messed up lives". An institution that claims to speak for God should be radically humbled by even one lost sheep, even if the other 99 are having a good time.
Just my two cents, as someone who spent 30 years in the Evangelical church and now wishes he could get those years back.
You are suggesting they .... repent? No, no, no - being an American evangelical/fundementalist means you DON'T have to repent. Remember - Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven. It's the get-out-of-jail free card they want for themselves and nobody else.
I keep staring at Skye's Optimus Prime in the distance. What a NERD!! But that's okay, because so am I with my own Optimus on my shelf of other nerdy stuff. Oh yeah, still watching and typing . . . Great conversation guys!!! I always enjoy your conversations on examining your faith and why you believe what you believe.
One of the deeply confusing pieces for me when I came to faith in college was other students leaving faith who had the "Christian" homes I wished I grown up in.
The grass is always greener on the other side, right?
At 2:11, in my opinion, I believe they missed a glorious VeggieTales opportunity:
"It's been here since show one, and it still doesn't have a name!"
😂. Thank you all for who you are and all that you do!
I'm enjoying these clips. I grew up, and come from a main-line church, and a progressive liberal one at that. As a kid I always associated Evangelical with Fundamentalist. They were pretty much interchangeable. Intellectually I knew there was more nuance than that, but this is a great clarification. Thanks.
I dont like the term "born again" as it turns people off,l would rather just call myself a christian
@@maryaskin4757 growing up, it described those that had a conversion experience. Now it just means a bible-thumper.
Such a small world. I was in a Fundamental Christian church in Ames during college, and my hometown was Muscatine...
When are you guys going to start posting the entire podcast episodes to UA-cam again? I like the shorter clips too, but I miss being able to listen in the background while I drive, do chores, or study my Greek and Hebrew.
It appears that the fundamentalists and nationalists were allowed to hijack so-called classic evangelicalism. Correct?
Can’t we just call ourselves “born-again Christians”?
Kinda like starch bread
Unfortunately, that term is also heavily associated with Evangelicalism and Fundamentalism. I'm not saying we can't reclaim it, but it definitely doesn't come with a clean slate.
I think we might want to come up with a new term.
I think it was great that she had a good childhood and her parents did not abuse her with fundamentalist Christianity. That helps her have a more positive outlook on her faith. I did not have that so it was totally negative and also even damaged my brain so bad that I will forever have to take medication and battle depression! There has to be some accountability to these harsh abusive teachings and things need to change. My mother was a religious zealot due to the church and looked at everyone from the outside as the enemy. Also they performed demonic deliverences in front of me as a child. Never was told I was loved but was forced to love Jesus. I do love Jesus now because I know what he taught and what Evangelicals teach and preach is so far off the mark.
When did prophecy-mongering Pentecostals become Evangelicals? I remember being Evangelical as an IVP/InterVarsity, Urbana-attending, intellectual-pursuing version of Christianity, leaving behind an unsupportable fundamentalism.
All those who preach that a person needs personal salvation describe themselves as evangelical
@@epincion That's certainly where it started (George Whitfield). But for early Evangelicals, continuing revelation beyond scripture and continuing spiritual gifts (esp. speaking in tongues) would not have been accepted.
Phil's Holy Post video on the "drift" is a great summary: ua-cam.com/video/NiiRnO7UTTk/v-deo.htmlsi=8WF4IqksxPHQwutv
Huh. I don't think I've ever known the term to mean that. To me, it has always referred to those who had a very literalist interpretation of the Bible, believing it to be inerrant and infallible, believing in a personal salvation experience, requiring adult baptism, teaching the Rapture, and so on. And they tended to be very skeptical of modernism.
The main difference between them and fundamentalists was just that fundies were more extreme. They'd be more likely to not allow you to watch "occult" TV shows, listen to non-Christian music, etc. They're the ones that can wind up "Quiverfull" or in other more cult-like movements. They would outright reject modernism, and see it as the devil. And they are most likely to think only their church is going to heaven.
I wouldn't say that Evangelicals couldn't be intellectual pursuing, but it always seemed like said people were the exception not the rule. It's Mainline Protestant denominations that I've seen actually make the intellectual a key part of who they are (e.g. Presbyterians, who are well known for a more intellectual faith).
To me, at 39 years old, Evangelicalism has always meant "fundamentalist lite." And that is why I considered my (Pentecostal) Assembly of God upbringing to be a subset of Evangelical. We liked and agreed with Billy Graham as much as anyone.
What is the name for non-evangelical Christianity? Is it still modernist Christianity? Or is it progressive Christianity now? I'd rather identify with something I am rather than something that I'm not. Or at least not totally have "ex-anything" be my only identifier
Usually people just give a denomination (e.g. Episcopalian).
Non-denominational is used for surveys, but I’ve never met someone identifying as such.
@@Justanotherconsumer I grew up in a non-denominational church. And they were proud to use that label. Looking back, I can say the doctrine of that church was all over the place. It was seemingly made up on the fly. One year they prohibited my mom from dancing. And the next year they ran a water purifier MLM in the church. And the next year they let my mom dance. 🫨 But that was my introduction to Christianity. When I think of "non-denominational" I equate it to "anarchy" essentially. 😅
@@thoughtistic5807fascinating.
It depends. But one I've heard a lot is "mainline Christianity," assuming you join with those denominations like Episcopalians, United Methodists, United Presbyterians, etc. On Wikipedia, it's called "mainline Protestant."
I'd say modernist and progressive add additional things beyond just not Evangelical. A lot of them treat the Bible as not literal at all.
During my childhood, my family attended a church that called itself "non-denominational" and "inter-denominational" interchangeably. I was too young to be concerned about actual doctrine, but it was definitely dispensational, premill and egalitarian. It retrospect, there are some things they taught that I would not hold to now, but I quite liked it as a kid, and came out of it relatively unscathed.
When I hear of "exvangelicals" and those who are "deconstructing" I always think of 1 John 2:19: "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us." (NKJV)
Who is “us” though?
If “us” is people taking the name in vain and hating their neighbors, going out is a good thing.
Way to throw up a wall!
Thanks for pointing out that the good needs to also be remembered. Yes, there were was the church that did not care about the lost and would rather stand in condemnation than to witness, but there was also the church that went out of their way to take care of us when we were hurting financially. In short, the church is made up of people not angels or demons, and we cannot make the evangelical movement all good or all bad.
- Revelation 13:11 -that so rising up from the earth :as that to the militant church
How is it, after 30 years as a declaring Christian, I’ve never met anyone who described himself as a “fundamentalist?” I get the sense that “fundamentalist” today is a word like “Nazi” or “narcissist” - a word used as an epithet that reflects a
bigotry of the speaker rather than something realistically describing the people they are talking about.
They are now, the same thing.
It may or may not be "trendy" to deconstruct your faith. But for those who are it is trendy to post your story publicly in a series of videos obtaining lots of clicks and likes. That trend certainly skews the appearance of the numbers exiting.
I am 63. I gave my life to Jesus at age 12. My parents loved me unconditionally. I was surrounded by friends who also were trying to follow Jesus. I knew nothing of purity culture. I was NEVER threatened with damnation- though I was aware of consequences of disobedience. I never thought badly of my body or my sexual desires -they were part of how God created me, but I also KNEW that sex was so important that the only right place for it was in the context of committed marriage.
The Baptist church I grew up in, in the 1970's, was a center of the moving of the Spirit during the Jesus Movement and it was filled with people of every age, including lots of college and high school kids who -also were trying to follow Jesus- and I admired them greatly.
This church of my youth was pastored by a man who sought to receive everyone unconditionally but always to encourage them toward the mercy and grace of Christ- and to the joy of doing His will. Never burdensome- always winsome. I was encouraged to use all my talents in the Church [as were my friends]. Over and over again Jesus made himself real to me- refreshing the moment I'd had at twelve. In later years I worshipped with Evangelical Quakers in Seattle for 16 years and then at a a United church [Church of Christ /United Methodist - both were very much like First Baptist Church of Port Townsend where I grew up and where I have been the pastor for more than twenty years.
That's a piece of my story.
[Further up and further in! ]
At this point, I say I'm a member of The Kingdom and follower of The Way of Yeshua... And leave it there.
The problem is
Isolated verses' on their on dont prove anything but must be taking in context with the full understanding of theology, this is fundalism is wrong leading to hundreds of different groups arguing about doctrine.
I don't really think it's the evangelical/fundamentalist divide that is causing the problem since you can find biblical literalists (i. e. fundamentalists) who preach the law of Moses and others who preach Romans-14 Christian freedom. Instead, it's believers in second-work-of-grace sanctification ("the Holy Spirit can not fill a filthy vessel") who believe the Church needs to goad people into heaven by leaving the question of salvation open and contingent on good behavior, hence emphasis on sin and judgment. An older generation distinguished these as "Holiness churches" so you knew what you were getting in to and they crossed denominations, you might have Holiness Baptists and Pentecostal Holiness churches. I remember big discussions over whether Billy Graham drank wine haha
The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch. Let them think what they will, the proof is in the ❤️
- well knowing someone once that believed there had been a rapture after they had been drinking beer
One of the things that I have found kind of interesting is that there are a lot of evangelicals becoming xvangelicals, but there are also a lot of unchurched getting advanced degrees in theology, that also end up being critical of evangelical teaching. Dr. Michael Heiser and Dr. Tim Mackey come to mind off the top of my head.
Talibangelical best sums them up.
The word fundamentalist originally ment a person who is loyal to the tenets of his faith. It is now used by unbelievers and apostates to mean a religious biggot.
I can prove with the Bible alone that everyone is going to heaven and that we will all be equals.
You mentioned the Bible; I would just respectfully direct you to Acts 4:12, which explains that there is no other name under Heaven that has been given to people by which we must be saved. That name would be Jesus Christ.
Earlier, Jesus actually also explained that we must enter through the narrow gate (that would be having faith alone in Him to save us, as we are completely unable to save ourselves), and that wide is the gate and broad that leads to destruction. This would be in Matthew 7.
There is a literal Heaven, but we also have to remind people that there’s a literal Hell, as well.
@@patrickc3419
Every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord.
Jesus was speaking in parables; People mistake mistranslated parables for doctrine.
The narrow gate parable can be seen with the Israelites being delivered from Egypt only to be destroyed in the wilderness for their sins; including Moses.
Only a few Israelites made it to the Promised Land.
And it is no different today, 99.999% of all life will obey God, the rest will learn the hard way.
Romans 5:18-20
18 So then, as through one offense the result was condemnation to all mankind, so also through one act of righteousness the result was justification of life to all mankind. 19 For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous. 20 The Law came in so that the offense would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,
I just cant blame secularists for blaming evangelicalism and or fundamentalism for the things that they do. There are so many issues in the church today. And they arent small issues.
1. Women's rights. Complimentarian views exclude women from equal positions to men. Mostly in church ministry, but this culturally overflows into the broader workplace beyond the church as well.
2. Science: christians dont understand that the Bible is an ancient text, so we end up with many reading it "literally" aka they think that the earth is flat and 6,000 years old because they have never heard of ancient near east cosmology or temple inaugurations.
3. All the political issues with christian nationalism that has gotten wrapped up in anti-vax and extreme right wing politics.
4. The church in large part also doesnt treat gays fairly in a similar way to how blacks were historically treated as a lesser "class" of society.
Etc.
So, i really just can't blame so many for walking out of the church today. The issues in the church are pervasive and deeply entrenched in tradition. And many pastors are afraid to tackle these issues.
I don't think these terms are all that important. I am happy to be referred to as fundamentalist or evangelical. In reality, I am just a Bible literalist and I think that is what unites true Christians. We just believe the Bible and try to follow it. There are people leaving the faith, but I don't believe it is in massive numbers like some want us to think. Just my opinion.
So, Christian means Bible follower? I thought its literal meaning was Christ follower. One definition seems like following a set of rules, the other sounds like following the example of a person. Thoughts?
@@patrickmccurdy8688 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God. To believe and follow the Bible is to believe and follow Christ because the Bible is the primary way God speaks to us. It is also how we can tell if our thoughts are from God. If they disagree with scripture, they are not.
@jbutero1 no!!! Just no!!! To say the Bible = Jesus is wrong! Very wrong. You are wrong. I've gone to church of various Bible believing denominations and never heard this.
@jbutero1 John 1 is referring to Jesus, ot is NOT referring to the "Bible" (which literally did not exist when these words were written).
@@patrickmccurdy8688 I don't care what you have heard. I stand by what I said. I have been a Pastor and you weren't at my church. By the way, the Bible is not Jesus but it is the Words of Jesus. To know the Bible is to know Jesus.
I'm just tired of being asked to believe lies and being given nothing but conspiracy theory grade pseudo science to ground it in.
The moral truth is there in these texts. I'm sick of people acting like the Bible describes scientific reality and then being told that I'm just too "closed minded" to see that it's totally rational, when it, on the face of it, is not.
Exvangelical: "I left evangelicalism b.c it supported political movements on the right".
Also says they now work at NPR.
...You can't make this up 🤣🤣🤣
The term "evangelical" is dead. Since the 1980s, it's been used to label the Christian Right or extreme megachurch pastors (usually of the Kenneth Copeland variety). It's damaging to Christian colleges, ministries, and denominations to call themselves "evangelical." So what should we call ourselves? One way we should look at ourselves is where we are in the global Christian spectrum. Among Trinitarian churches, a moderate Baptist church represents the Christian baseline - their beliefs are the Christian beliefs that all other Christians agree upon. If you compared Catholics, Orthodox, Lutherans, Pentecostals, Holiness, Mennonites, Reformed, etc. and drafted a statement about what they all agree on, you basically have a statement that comports with moderate Baptist or non-denominational church beliefs. WE ARE THE CHRISTIAN CONSENSUS. It is fair to say we're "average Christians," "general Christians," etc. This is how we should frame ourselves - not part of some broader meta category that includes authoritarian personalities obsessed with pet doctrines like the Rapture or King James Onlyism.
It is sad, because evangelical is a good label in terms of what the word means. Essentially it means "full of good news". Historically it has stood for the primacy of Scripture for informing our knowledge of God and for the need to spread this good news to all nations. It has become associated with a voting block and even people who do not view Scripture as true and reliable. Their fruit seems to show that they are not full of the good news at all.
@@robertguidry2168 It's pretty astounding that big media and academia seized on "evangelical" or even "fundamentalist" for a voting block that includes traditionalist Catholics (who don't even think conservative Protestants are true Christians who go to Heaven, except through some "invincible ignorance" exception clause) and Mormons, who rewrote the Bible and whipped up new scriptures of their own to recast Christianity as a polytheistic space alien sect. It's very insulting and even libelous that the term was used this way.
TELLING THE VISION FROM JESUS (of the foot cut off on cankered gold and silver that did not bleed JAMES 5) is HOW the 144,000 shall be sealed in their foreheads, and in no other way. In scipture (KJV) the 144,000 are The noise of the cry of the fishgate, the 12 tribes of Israel, 12,000 in each tribe. The Government of Israel. The REMNANT. JESUS CHRIST appeared to you all (7) Seven Times and you say He did not appear to you. Jesus Christ spoke to all of you and you say He did not speak to you in the Holy Spirit saying: TELL THE VISION, TELL THE VISION, TELL THE VISION, TELL THE VISION AND YOU SHALL NOT NEED THE MARK. TELL THE VISION AND YOU SHALL HEAL WITHOUT MONEY. NO TIME TO TALK ALLAH? YOU WANT WAR (Said Jesus in the HOLY SPIRIT to you ALL) Jesus appeared to the 144,000 young virgin children giving them these words (Prophecies) Bad Boom, Boom, Mark of the 10, The Black, Death, War, Javol, Hell. Bad Boom is (Ezekial) The Wheel in the middle of the wheel [A Nuke in a green volvo in Chicago} BOOM (Ezekial) Fire infolding in itself (The bad boom in Chicago shall detonate in Marina City Towers and all in Chicago shall evacuate that city, HELL begins that moment. MARK OF THE TEN (The OMNI branded Barcode Mark of satan comes with temptation of $32,523. THE BLACK: All who take the OMNI mark shall get a skin disease revealing the ashes (DEATH) in their souls as gray scabs that itch on those faces and loins and bodies: DEATH: The unwashed ashes in your souls, JESUS revealed this to all of you.JAVOL: The enforcers of the Mark of the beast, the OMNI. WAR: You are holding WAR agains JESUS right now by not telling the vision of the valley, the vision with the ORANGE RED in the middle of the lower dark green leaves on the palm trees on the right side of the valley of decision. NONE of the 144,000 are grown adults and the 144,000 speak ONLY when the HOLY SPIRIT of JESUS CHRIST tells them what to say. They do not speak to their own parents nor to any of you because you do not want to listen. The 144,000 are all ABOVE YOU.
You have experienced what happens when JESUS removes the HEDGE from you soul. On October 10, 2005 JESUS removed the HEDGE from your soul as you lay in bed, and when the hedge was removed from you you could not move and you were paralyzed. In the moment JESUS removed the hedge from you, Jesus allowed SATAN to attack you with a fire that satan can pull down from heaven. and that fire that satan pulled down from heaven went into you and spoke loudly in your mind saying: I WILL TURN AND TOSS YOU VIOLENTLY LIKE A BALL. This happened again to you on March 31, 20202, the HEDGE was removed from you, your were paralyzed, and Satan put in your brain the words DON'T TELL THE VISION. It is sadly possible that you thought it was the voice of god, and it did happen, so you denying it wont be a surprised as it is very very embarrassing. THAT removing the HEDGE is how JESUS falls any of those trying to harm the 144,000. NO WEAPON SHALL PROSPER AGAINST US.
Can she be any cuter? She says great things but she's too cute.
The people entering wouldn’t be listening to this podcast. Duh!?
What’s with the attitude, “…oh, this is a story we’ve heard over and over the last 10-15 years…”
Huh?
Instead of being bored with it, ask why it’s more and more common?
Essentially, some people like the “club church” they decide to go to, and unfortunately the “club church” is pre business than a spiritual incubator of restoration so people leave.
Some find another “club church” to be a part of.
One key is as long as all these “club churches” claim to be exclusive, they will keep the socially insecure and those that feel comfortable in their “club church” and those that see and experience the disappointment of experience “club church” when the human heart yearns for “real church”
The “real church” is being found within the demographic of the Nones.
To the horror of the “club churches”
Cheers.
I don't disagree with what you're trying to say. Some people want to pursue truth, which will lead them away from fundamentalism. Just like it would lead them away from any group, faction, sect, clique, tribe, etc. that people join just to be a part of it. But what people are running towards is only half of the picture. We also have to ask what people are running away from. And in this case that includes the abhorrent behavior of Donald Trump and his evangelical supporters. There is perhaps no one who has done more to undermine and dismantle the institution of conservative evangelical Christianity than Donald Trump.
Anti-Christian NPR propagandist . . .
Jesus isn't a fascist. Those who claim to follow him shouldn't be either.
@@averageuser4367 None do that I have ever interacted with. They just listen to sermons, sing hymns or CCM and go home and live their lives trying not to be infected by the Democrat party.
@@AntiMarxism21stCentury "infected". Could you go one conversation without demonizing anyone to your left?
How do you get that out of this discussion?
@@jefftitterington7600 he's a far right individual that thinks that anything to the left of hunting the homeless for sport is communism.