Game of Thrones/ASOIAF Theories | AGOT Jon II | Breakdown & Analysis
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Breakdown and Analysis of chapter ten in book 1 of the A Song of Ice and Fire Series, A Game of Thrones: AGOT Jon II.
Theories and analysis of A Song of Ice and Fire using text evidence and quotes from George RR Martin.
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"She never called him by his name before" says everything that needs to be said right there.
Catelyn gives off narcissistic mother vibes. It also explains why Sansa developed the views she has towards Jon, she was the golden child until Bran was born but was replaced and now has just been trying desperately to get her mothers love and attention again by mimicking her
That may explain why Sansa was so vulnerable to manipulation by Cersei and Joffrey, both of whom also tick a bunch of narcissistic boxes. Children from abusive homes tend to gravitate toward abusers, because that's what they're used to, and they don't realize they're entitled to better treatment.
When Riverrun was under attack, Edmure wanted to protect the smallfolk and Catelyn wanted to leave them to die.
What a c*nt
I think edmure is crazy underrated, they butchered him on the show imo but book edmure is easily one of my favorite characters
I think the line "I'm gonna face dangers far worse than Catelyn Stark" may be foreshadowing that it'll be Jon who puts the Stoneheart out of her misery using Dawn...
oooh! interesting !!!
@@TheOrderoftheGreenhand I think it would be awesome for Jon to get that closure..and it be out of pitty.. Like.. "Look at you..finally the world can see what you always were.." Lol
That would be awesome, but also in stone hearts condition, Jon wouldn’t take any joy in it.
@@josephjanisch5396 true...
But. I would. And that's all that matters 😆
Nah I'm the one that's gonna put an end to that miserable undead c word, well me and my girl Brienne the Blue will.... ... ..... ...SWORD!!!!🗡
I think Robb would check Catelyn if she disrespected Jon in front him. Further on- I think while discussing Robb's will/legitimizing Jon- she does insinuate some nasty things about Jon and Grey Wind approaches her growling with his teeth bared. I interpreted that as a personification of Robb's feelings in that moment, but he didn't have to check her because Grey Wind sensed his feelings and did it for him. It's also worth noting that while discussing Jon w/Robb in that scene Catelyn does call Jon by his name. So apparently she only failed to use Jon's name to Jon's face, but took care to use it to others. That's actually pretty despicable. Proves ME's point that you don't have to beat or curse someone to abuse them.
100% Greywind represents Robb's inner thoughts.
Spot on👌
I really hate Catelyn. My heart breaks for poor Jon. Thanks for the chapter by chapter break downs. I look forward to them each week.
Silliness isn't the only reason those guards aren't touching Jon. There's also a Direwolf hanging out right outside the door (Ghost) and he wont give two shits about biting them
If I ever noticed how mean Septa Mordane was to Arya I had forgotten. Your analysis contains many details that would have escaped my notice. Thanks for the great content!
I never like Catelyn Stark because of how self absorbed she seemed, always so confident in her own justness and rightness that she completely fails to see how horrendous her actions are. Thank you for pointing it all out and of course for the many great videos
I think she only called him bastard. It's the worst thing she could call him that Ned couldn't do anything about. Sure it's rude, but it's a common way for nobility to refer to a bastard. It also puts Ned in a spot because he can't say "don't call him bastard" without making it seem like he wants Jon as a legitimate heir. I think she did it because she didn't want anyone else forgetting what Jon is supposed to be, being the little Ned clone he is. It just reveals more of her insecurity.
Listening to you guys while I renovate the apartment I'm slowly moving into makes for a good day.
It's almost like someone gave me a present when I get your notifications. Love listening to you guys.
She probably usually calls him Snow, because "bastard" would be a little much.
No, no, my good knight, do not fear for me. The fire is mine. I am Daenerys Stormborn, daughter of dragons, bride of dragons, mother of dragons, don't you see? Don't you SEE?
I did not pay that close of attention: if she prayed to seven faces of God, she prayed to the Stranger as well...
Basically Catelyn straight up admitted to praying to Stranger (of course, not exclusively) for her "special boy" to stay with her. That's so messed up.
Stranger doesn't seem to be an aspect of the Seven that you'd want to go messing around with; and yet she literally does by bringing such a petty issue in her prayer, which, it gets even better, was obviously and entirely self-inflicted.
Good thing it's a far cry from Winterfell to Craster's, or she'd totally sacrifice someone to the Others because "I MUST HAVE THE LATEST THING THAT I JUST ABSOLUTELY MUST HAVE".
I watch your videos when I want something SANE and down to earth. I can always count on you making SENSE. Thanks for that.
I am currently at work finalising month end, and it is a joy to listen to your analysis while working. I am a more open minded fan because of the research you both do. Excellent stuff, and thank you both for providing this content x
Finalising month end exactly mid month?
@@cbob213 depending on how large the company is, they could have to start a lot earlier to have it all done by the end of the month.
Month end for January. I am a bit late due to flow of information and the way our income works.
A cold resentment moved in her eyes...a deep hate that moves her to say,"Jon, it should've been YOU ". She's awful.
I think Cat named Benjen as the one ( to Ned) as the person who gossiped Ashara's name as Jon's mother and had Benjen sent to the wall( so he would never be able to challenge baby Robb for WF) that's why we do not know why Benjen went to the wall,or why Howland is never seen at WF because she probably named HIM as well,since he was the " only one" who came back alive,supposedly,from Tower of Joy,and was a close friend of Ned.
She probably drove Jon,as she probably drove Benjen,those close to Ned had to go,that's why HER Maester is there in WF.
Imma just jump in and say that I don't think the guards would have dragged Jon from the room simply because they wouldn't have had to. It would have been an awkward moment but I think in the end the guards would have talked him from the room. Jon is absolutely the more mature between him and Catlyn so I think he would have been the bigger person and left the room no matter how much it hurt him. And he wouldn't want to start an argument with Bran lying there like that.
Ned would have comforted him but he would have maybe said something to Catlyn in private. She is still his wife, the lady of Winterfell, and Ned is still too honorable. He's not going to confront her and berate her in public. He definitely can't take Jon's side over hers in public. It would humliate her. And I think Robb is caught in the middle because I can't see him confronting Cat head-on either. He's passive with her even when he becomes king. He brushes her off and tries to gently send her back North but he never orders her.
Anyway, what I really wanted to say is that this scene makes me believe every nasty thing Lysa said about Cat. This cold-shoulder thing she does with Jon is so spiteful. You guys are 100% right that you can make someone feel so bad without saying a word and it's something girls specialize in. It's classic meangirl behavior. You can pretend like you don't hear or see someone. They speak and you don't acknowledge them. You talk over them and basically erode their self confidence and self esteem.
I think it's something she never grew out of. I think she did flirt with and tease Littlefinger and use his crush on her to torment him. She's just so selfish, snobby, and self-absorbed and I think Lysa had her number.
Good points
It's also what gaslighters do.
That is one of the reasons I refer to her as "Stoneheart-in-waiting"..
“This was a good dog...I mean podcast “. -probably Dave
Some bomb ass content yet again from The Wolfs Den! Thanks you 2! Y'all and Teddy are truly great! 👍
18:18 I think she just called him Snow
My mom had to go to the ER for burns
We had to wait in the car until the doctors let her leave the hospital
It was maybe a few hours but my sister and I were going insane in the car because we weren’t allowed in the ER. This was earlier during COVID so only dad was allowed in with her. We were loosing our minds .
Bran has been in a coma for a fortnight and she hasn’t left the room. Bean’s in a coma, no one knows if he’ll survive of wake up, but Jon had been avoiding seeing Bran because SHE’S IN THERE
That’s insane.
He enters the room and Catelyn’s response is “Shall I call the guards?”
WTF
Also
He was at the door when she called out to him. “Jon,” she said. He should have kept going, but she had never called him by his name before.
He stops and lingers there for a second because it shocks him so much. That takes some serious dedication.
I never noticed that Mikken made the sword without telling Ned
Brilliant
But Mikken did put his mark on it though
I don't understand how the dude didnt understand what it meant by the cold look in Catelyn's eyes.
Then he tries to tie it into something to do with the Others and I was like ugh.
I'm sure she didn't talk to jon or need to get his attention in those 14 years, but I'm guessing she just said "hey" or "you" something like that if she ever needed to address Lord Snow
I wonder how Jon isn't sadder about his situation.
He’s a tough kid
I completely missed the Septa Mordane thing
In his defense, dogs are awesome.
One should keep Jon’s relationship with catelyn in mind with all of Jon’s relationships with women in the future ie Mel dany syllese Ygritte
It will certainly have impacts on his relationships
Catelyn is pretty terrible isn't she? Not as bad as Cersei for sure, but still a nasty piece of work.
Nah, Cat is worse than Cersei. Cersei did some awful things, yes, but they don't seem nearly as reprehensible as starting an entire war from her foolish actions.
Thanks!
You know, despite the fact that I dislike Catelyn, I feel compelled to point out that we don't know precisely what she did that reduced Jon to tears so many times in the past. Was she verbally and psychologically abusive? (I don't think Ned would have put up with physical abuse at all.) Or did she simply rebuff Jon when he approached her trying to to get the same love and attention his siblings received from her? Or as much maternal tenderness as Catelyn gave to any of her biological kids, which doesn't seem to have been very much. Not being motherly to Jon is one thing, because she in truth not his mother. It makes her petty and unlikable, because it wasn't Jon's fault that he was born, and he was just a little boy looking for a mother's love, but it wasn't her obligation to fulfill that need. It was Ned duty as Jon's acknowledged father to see that Jon's emotional needs as well as physical needs were met, rather than just passively leaving it to Catelyn to take up the role of mother figure or not.
Honestly, I just can't get in the same mindspace as someone who'd coldly reject a child who came to me looking for affection and nurturing, even if they weren't related to me. Maybe it's because I was once a child care provider, but Catelyn's behavior is inconceivable to me. It makes me wonder if not only is your A + N = J theory true, but that Hoster Tully told Catelyn that Ned had married Ashara, making Jon in fact Ned's legal heir. There's nothing in her POV chapters to support it, and as a Catelyn-supporter pointed out, she wasn't afraid of *Jon* making a claim on Winterfell, but his children doing so. It still makes me wonder.
Some people think Catelyn and Cersei are two sides of the same coin....
OOTGH!!!!!
Any chance she meant HE should be the heir...? Like, she's telling him the truth for the first time? Not saying she WANTS it to be him, but she's telling him what's real? Just thinking...if she first said his name....
Catlyn Stark is the worst person ever.
Septa Unella Mordane
Thanks mary Ellen and dave. Although dave and Mary Ellen sounds better. ( ladies first or save the best to last )
George's chapter titles really suck. I vastly prefer the Wheel of Time system where the chapter title usually doesn't tell new readers anything, but is a very useful memory jogger for what happens in that chapter on re-reads.
that’s actually a good point
Indefensible
👌🏽
Great analysis!
Catelyn is very lucky Ned isn't a different kind of person: "these ancient stairs are very steep and splippery...it would be a shame if you were to continue to treat my son this way..."
That is what Ned should have done.
His blood*
Son*@@sergoldenhandthejust1495
I hate Cat as much as you guys, but I am not going to excuse Ned. If a child is being abused by one parent, then they are being neglected by the other parent. Ned just lets Cat emotionally abuse John and treat him like dirt for 14 years. Then Ned ships Jon off to the wall. Ned is every bit as much to blame as Cat. Ned promised Ashara he would take care of their son if she took care of Ned's bastard Targ nephew.
I hope when we finally see Ashara, she curses Ned out and begs Jon's forgiveness for ever trusting the "honorable" Ned Stark.
Exactly. Great point.
Wonderful point, and while I despise Cat, I see Ned as a product of this time period. Natural children were treated as second class citizens in this time period. I do get partially why Cat does not like Jon, but it does NOT excuse her immature insecurities in her marriage that she is projecting on to this teenage boy. After reading these books again, her insecurities stem from the fact that Ned got another woman pregnant while at war, or...she knew that Ashara Dayne was Ned's true wife from Lysa's secret coded letter, and found out that her marriage was bigamous. Now, Lysa wasn't smart enough to give out that information, but Petyr Baelish certainly is, and it would so be like him to feed Cat information like this in order to sow discord. Remember that Lysa wrote that letter via Littlefinger's dictation in a secretarial capacity.
Oh perfect timing. I can watch this before I go to my online class.
Cat doing this is possibly the worst thing ever aside basically having her benjen and the rat measter ruin Jon's life. Making a kid cry. Get Sansa to call Jon b@stard and wish him dead for brans mistakes aka her mistakes of being a mom go to show exactly how people act in life.
These chapter breakdowns are probably the best I see. At most every other channel I've seen somehow turn each chapter to "Jon is Targarean somehow" so it made me exhausted to even keep up with them.
How does one go to an online class? Real question.
@@cbob213 lol
Jon is his fathers son. He will always do whats right, no matter what. Cat’s hate and distrust of Jon is insane when you see who Jon is in his POV chapters. She is blind to who Jon actually is.
That’s why it’s often called Blind Hatred.
She actually probably sees who Jon really is and it pisses her off even more that he's honorable like Ned. Evil count.
@@Mike.Ivory.Music7 haha, I think thats gotta be her new moniker.
Evil Count Catelyn.
Or Catelyn the Count (=D)
@@cbob213 ha meant to say evil cunt. Damn autocorrect 😂
The wolves to their owners, you can do it I love you ❤️🐺
I wonder if she never called him anything. I can totally see her outwardly acting as if he wasn’t there. It used to be called giving a “cut direct”.
"Mother, you forget. My father had 4 sons." One of Robb's best lines.
The dream of spring is the dream to see these siblings together again 🤧
Love you both. It's great that you share this together!
Lol you remembered the intro this time.
Cat might call him “Snow” or “yous wit da face.”
😂
I absolutely love this series. Even if it takes a decade, I’ll be listening to these chapter breakdowns, praying you don’t GRRM us and never finish.
Best ASOIAF channel on UA-cam!
This might sound cheesy, maybe off--topic, but after the two years we've had, it's so awesome to be part of something like ASOIAF. What's the best part, is that it isn't over yet. Sure, we have the film series, some spin-offs where we can get our "fix," but the REAL, TRUE story is still being revealed. I have something to MARVEL at again; it's been so long since I've felt this sense of contentment, optimism, and joy. And you two, you keep on keeping the story alive as we await the next chapter. (I hadn't opened a book for years...watched DUNE right when it came out, then DEVOURED the original six books (well, save all of Chapterhouse...I have to finish that one...it just got weird). Anyhow, then I watched LOTR again, feeling fantasy-like, and wondered about GOT on HBO. Couldn't believe I'd never watched them. Devoured the show as I did the Dune books, then took the logical next step and opened the first book, AGOT. I'm now half-way through AFFC, read two Dunc and Egg tales, read Fire and Blood, read the Untold History of Westeros, studied the maps, and frequent your casts. All of this began in October I think? When Dune came out on HBO? I barely go online anymore, and COVID and Biden and Trump...they all GO AWAY when you stay away from the news. I've kept my eye on the ball, here, with stories, and I haven't been this happy in a LONG TIME. Thank you so much.
“It's like in the great stories, Mr. Frodo. The ones that really mattered. Full of darkness and danger they were. And sometimes you didn't want to know the end. Because how could the end be happy? How could the world go back to the way it was when so much bad had happened? But in the end, it’s only a passing thing, this shadow. Even darkness must pass. A new day will come. And when the sun shines it will shine out the clearer. Those were the stories that stayed with you. That meant something, even if you were too small to understand why. But I think, Mr. Frodo, I do understand. I know now. Folk in those stories had lots of chances of turning back, only they didn’t. They kept going, because they were holding on to something. That there is some good in this world, and it's worth fighting for.” ― J.R.R. Tolkien
Ghost enters and Nymeria yelped at them and sat down
imagine arya meeting egg. they're not that different.
i'm a dog. but anyway i love the jon/arya scene.
It'll forever bug me that Sansa always gets a pass for betraying her family by telling Cersei about Neds plan to get them out of KL..
👏👏👏 another great analysis!!
Honestly, part of me wonders how often Catelyn even directly addressed Jon before this point? I get the feeling that she tried to avoid interacting with him as much as possible, and if she ever did feel the need to say something "to him", she'd just use someone else, like when she had young Robb basically repeat her message that Jon couldn't be Lord of Winterfell when they played because he was a bastard.
Really enjoyed this.
jon so hard done by...
I could listen to you guys talk about Arya all day, every day. She is my favorite character and even after s7 and s8, I had a soft spot. Awesome vid by the way, don't worry Dave, there will be many dogs to talk about in later chapters and books.😂