Exactly, the war could be avoided if Sauron got HIS ring that was stolen from him. He has the right to defend himself, but they needed to take a ring hostage, so they faced the consequences of war!
If they hadn’t gone through Moria Durins bane wouldn’t have been destroyed and the dwarves wouldn’t have been able to reclaim it. And also Gandalf wouldn’t have been able to level up. The route that the fellowship takes feels like it was destined by Eru illuvatar to solve the problem of not just Sauron but other problems aswell.
There would have been a different set of problems to overcome, some different evil to fight and some different prize to win. Gandalf would’ve still leveled up somehow because it is a fixed point in time and the Balrog might have just continued to slumber forever.
@@Rockoblocko Balrog was waiting for dwarves after their war with orcs when Azog was chopped down. He was indifferent to Balin's actions, perhaps sleeping while meaningless skirmish was happening upstairs, but he was not dormant as he was after he escaped War of Wrath. He was still there, and no longer in stasis. With Gandalf sailing away, who else there was to take him down? Seems like numbers don't matter, a personal exceptional strength is required, and apart from Glorfindel (who is not some demon hunter, his first one was similar to Gandalf's - act of heroism), who else was there? Age of Man was about to come, and ancient, now unbeatable horror would be left lying in well excavated mountains in the middle of their lands.
@@DrLicuid Fair, partially. But no one single being was ever by itself capable of taking out entire massive armies, like ever. Sauron was humiliated and defeated by "Men", Edain under Hurin held the rearguard for Turgon against numerous orcs, trolls AND balrogs, but was taken alive. Even Morgoth needed vast hordes of cannon fodder to take the brunt in battles. If things were as simple as Sauron, a balrog or even Morgoth could have done the job alone, they would have done so. However, the prospect of Durin's bane left alive, another slumbering balrog appearing or a lingering evil blue wizard in the east or south would spell trouble, the age of men could have come up with something rather than just be swept away. Power and countermeasures, action and reaction. Another age of darkness, but some form of functional weapon or magical force would be developed, equaling a hypersonic cruise missile with a tactical nuclear warhead. In the unlikely event of the opposite, the Valar would probably stay out of it, but eventually Eru would not, if it turned out to be the end of everything Middle-Earth. But I say numbers matter.
I always thought the watcher in the water was tolkein's answer to that. "Look how the ring attracted this ONE abominable creature of the depths that got stuck in a lake" imagine taking the ring out onto open water knowing it attracts things like that?
Water is a difficult enemy for Sauron and Morgoth. Ulmo, the Valar of the Sea was one of the most dedicated enemies of Morgoth. He even aided men and elves during the first age despite it being forbidden. During first and second age the further you got from the ocean, the weaker Ulmo's influence became. Morgoth or Sauron never had any mastery over water. Even during third age orcs don't have fleets. It is just humans serving Sauron who use navies. Also, Ulmo never "abandoned" the Eldar and Men, even after the fall of Númenor: "Nonetheless Ulmo loves both Elves and Men, and never abandoned them, not even when they lay under the wrath of the Valar." In The Unfinished Tales, Christopher Tolkien wrote a passage concerning Nazgul fear of water. All except the Witch-king were apt to stray when alone by daylight; and all, again save the Witch-king, feared water and were unwilling, except in dire need, to enter it or to cross streams unless dryshod by a bridge.³ ³ At the Ford of Bruinen only the Witch-king and two others, with the lure of the Ring straight before them, had dared to enter the river; the others were driven into it by Glorfindel and Aragorn. The Watcher likely originated in some underground lake where Ulmo's touch was the weakest and only entered the open rivers after the orcs changed the flow of the water. And is one of those eldritch creatures like Ungoliant or the things deep in Moria that were not created by Morgoth but something different. The idea isn't bad but when you look deeper into the legendarium it doesn't work. Water is an element that opposes Sauron and open seas more so than inland rivers.
@@TonttuTorvinen It is true that water opposes Sauron and Morgoth, but that doesn't mean that it is helpful. As Gandalf said, "There are many things in the deep waters...", and I doubt that those "things" would be incorruptible by the Ring or friendly to humans. "There are many powers in the world, for good or for evil."
@@TonttuTorvinen while I agree with all of that, I still think there's room for both morgoths corrupted creatures and other ring attracted beasts to live in the ocean.i don't think this disproves my take at all, just adds to it
"I'll put that ring in an envelope, then put that envelope inside of another envelope, and then mail that envelope to Mount Doom. And then when it arrives...they'll THROW IT IN THE FIRE!!! It's brilliant, brilliant, brilliant, I tell you!"
guessing, before finishing the video: 1) shipwrecks are most definitely a thing and the Ring needs to be _destroyed,_ not just gotten rid of 2) the Corsairs of Umbar 3) they wouldn't have known it at the time, but the Ring + Denethor's compromised state is probably a good way to a bad time 4) if someone (Boromir again, or whoever) were corrupted by the Ring on a ship, Frodo now doesn't have the option to just leave 5) hobbits hate boats (edit: except Stoors ofc)
I figured that the Corsairs raiding Gondors south (and that they would be close to Minas Morgul) would immediately deter the fellowship from trying to sail close to Mordor
There's another reason why sailing to Mordor would guarantee failure - the Fellowship would completely evade Gollum, leaving him either scrabbling about in Moria or in the wild country near the Misty Mountains. And Gollum's role is crucial. Frodo, when standing on the brink of the Cracks of Doom with the Ring, failed. Tolkien's point here was that there are no paragons - no-one so "good" and wholesome that they could withstand the lure of the ruling Ring when its power was at its peak. The quest of the Ring succeeded only because Gollum took the Ring from Frodo and then plummeted to his doom. This is an illustration of evil being its own undoing; and also of the designs of Eru Iluvatar. Gollum was Eru's instrument in the defeat of Sauron. This, incidentally, is also a reason why flying the Ring to Mordor would also have guaranteed failure.
This is rather hindsight-y. It's not like they met at the Council and were like "okay, we must make sure Gollum tracks us." Plus, who's to say he couldn't have followed them downriver and stowed away on the ship? There's a difference between foreseeable problems you can plan around and one-off happenings that you cannot.
@DarklordZagarna - that's a fair point. I'm not suggesting that the Council could know any of this. Eru Iluvatar, on the other hand, knew pretty much what would happen. Some of the Ainur (Ulmo especially) could remember much of the Music from which the world was made. Olorin may have remembered some parts of it, but as Gandalf this knowledge was veiled to him. All he had was a feeling that Gollum had some part to play. This could be a vague recollection of a part of the Music; or it could have been prompting from Eru. Tolkien leaves us to guess. As things turned out, we the readership know that the quest would have failed without Gollum's intervention.
@Zyo117 - yes, upon the border of Mordor. But could he have withstood the power of the Ring in the Sammath Naur themselves? We don't know. Tolkien's point seems to be that no-one could. Frodo is portrayed as more understanding, tolerant and kind-hearted than Sam in the books, especially when it comes to Sméagol. Mayhap the One could have found a small sliver of malice with which to work.
@@nigeldepledge3790 I mean, given the proximity to Sauron at the time, and the fact that (I believe) he was the only one who had it in his possession, knew what it was, and willingly gave it up; that kind of strengthens my point. Whether or not he could have withstood the power within the borders of Mordor? Unknown, but evidence does point to him having the best chance if Gollum wasn't around.
I'm not sure if you, or anyone else, mentioned this, but another good reason not to sail the One Ring to Mordor is that the Fellowship would all have to spend weeks in very close proximity to one another on a little boat, with the One Ring working to corrupt each of them in turn. Boromir being seduced by the One Ring in the Emyn Muil was bad enough, but imagine if instead of confronting Frodo in the the vast, untamed wilderness, he instead confronted him below deck in the cabins of a boat at sea, with nowhere for Frodo to run or easily escape to.
I've always said, why didn't they put the thing into the nose of a well-programmed tomahawk cruise missile? Easily enough range, fast enough to outrun anything Sauron could send after it, maneuverable enough to dodge the rest, and thoroughly indifferent to any whispering of promises and visions of greatness. It's sad, really, when authors just ignore the obvious solutions to artificially draw out the plot.
I honestly doubt that anyone would be able to give the ring up aside of Bilbo and Sam who just whore it for a very short time and even there he didnt give it up freely but Frodo just snatched it back.. especially if knowing that giving up the ring and all its ... possibilitys would lead to its destruction
I'm more partial to putting it in the cargo of a Hu-1 chopper with side mounted 50, ain't nothing Morder got that gonna do nothing against a good ol Huey with Fortunate Sum blaring on the speakers
Why didn't the Dwarves simply discover Uranium underneath the Blue Mountains and use it to create a nuclear reactor, which could generate enough heat to destroy the Ring and provide Middle-Earth with a supremely potent source of energy? Should've been the obvious answer, SMH
You'd have to hit the entrance to the Sammath Naur very accurately, and even if you did there's still no guarantee the Ring would fall into the Crack of Doom. In order to do ranging shots, the Fellowship would have needed spotters near Mt Doom, so _someone_ has to go into Mordor anyway 😱. /jk I know you weren't being serious! Neither was I!!
The Harnen River leads right up to its southern border, close to the Nargil pass, on the other side of which is a tributary of the Sea of Nurnen, other tributaries of which criss-cross all of Mordor.
@Pfhorrest it's still landlocked, and you better have an invisible ship if you're sailing up that River. Then how are you getting into Mordor? Scaling the mountains or walking all the way round them to the east?
@@donaldfarquar Or sailing rivers through that eastern gap, navigating rivers in the Eastern lands on a disguised ship, hoping not to get spotted as good guys . Anyways, the 3 heroes deemed not good at sea in this video were the only ones actually attacking Sauron's forces in a ship sailing up the Anduin .
@@baronjutter There are times when Tolkien hints the Ring has sentience. It "slipped" from Isildur's finger in what could be an attempt to get back to Sauron. It "slipped" away from Gollum when Bilbo presented an opportunity to get out from under the mountains. It would seem that if dropped in the ocean, the Ring would somehow manipulate circumstances to further it's journey back to Sauron.
Gandalf would have banished the sea monster / make the passage safe for dwarfs to colonise while also dieing / levelling up. The leviathan would fill the role of the Balrog.
One thing not brought up here that I think is very valid point is that going by boat was a complete all or nothing gamble. One bad wave, one lucky strike, one leak in the hull and the ship drags the one ring and the only person who can safely transport it to the bottom of the ocean, on land they were fighting to keep one tiny, child sized easily hidden thing safe. not an entire floating building.
I always felt that the reason why the chose a band of hobbits, plus a wizard, two men, a dwarf and and elf was because they would look, in the eyes of spies, as just another band of travelers. The witch king KNEW that the ring was with Bilbo, and the last time he had seen Bilbo was when Glorfindel took him to safety to Rivendell. So, for all purposes, Sauron must have thought that the ring was kept there. Sending Glorfinfel with the party would be a huge RED FLAG, because he could be recognized. Aragorn always travelled south under disguise, and Gandalf was just an old man known by different names in different places. The hobbits could pass as children. Thus, it makes sense that Sauron was attacking Rohan and Gondor in the south, Erebor to the east, and the realm of Galadriel to the southeast. Sauron was trying to reach Rivendell. I also imagine that Rivendell must have faced attacks from orcs coming from Moria as well. The fellowship as actually a neat plan. It failed during its journey, but the idea made sense. It was a sabotage mission, not an attack. If the eagles tried to take them, Sauron would have easily destroyed them. He had fellbeasts and other creatures that could spot giant eagles carrying people. The giant eagles only passed through because of the chaotic nature of the last battle. Now, to the last point: if they had tried to take the sea, how would they do that? With a ship from the Grey Havens? That could be spotted. The Corsairs of Umbar must have had control over the sea at that point. It was too risky.
You've made some good points and I've learned a few things. There's one grey area though: I heard or read somewhere that Sauron still didn't know where Rivendell was due to Elrond's ability to keep it hidden. Does that make sense?
@@Clyde-Crashcup It does, but I don't think it's that big of an issue. He would probably know the general region, or at the very least he would know that it wasn't within the territory he controlled.
Another issue is that Boromir wouldn't have agreed to route anyway because his goal was to get advice in Rivendell and then return home. If I'd been in Elrond's place, I might have sent a small party of elves and maybe men on one of these routes as a diversion. Even if they did nothing more than go to the sea and return, they would keep Sauron busy with reports from his spies of an elvish party moving in that direction. If they could find a small boat that was seaworthy, they could sail along the coast to provide additional diversion. They could sail back to where they started before they encountered the Corsairs of Umbar. Another option would be landing the boat before they reached where the corsairs were but then going overland. The report of a boat beached along the shore and those in the boat having disappeared would be another worry for Sauron. With Sauron's forces attacking the coast, the small party of elves could join forces with men along the coast to defend those lands. Granted, half a dozen elves are not that important militarily, but if Sauron suspects that one of them has the ring, he's going to be worried.
While I agree with most of your points, I'm not so sure that Aragorn, Boromir and Gimli would be as useless in a sea battle as you seem to think. In this 'period'/age, ramming or boarding were the ways to win, no canons or anything after all. so as long as Gandalf could prevent ramming from being successful, or the ship styles were wrong for that, then it'd come down to hand to hand combat on the ship, which they'd be very useful for.
IMHO they would have been more useful during ship to ship battles. If the bad guys know the ring is on the ship they can't sink it as they want the ring. They'd have to board. Less people on boarding action, the ship offers protection against arrows, the masts etc form obstacles which help the outnumbered side. Worst case would be likely to be boarded by 2 ships. I doubt 3 ships fit to board at the same time. Being outnumbered would be much less of a problem at sea. They could even counterboard and free the slaves.
Indeed, why not have used the High Pass just north of Rivendell? The goblins there were enormously reduced. They would then have been able to shelter and recharge among the Beorlings and then taken boats all the way to Lorien. After that the journey might have progressed much as it did, but until then it would have likely been safer (Gandalf would likely have been with them the whole way) and easier.
I'd have to go back and reread it, but wasn't it discussed that the pass they attempted was the only one still open at that time of year? A couple hundred miles further north, and you could pretty well assume it was just fully snowbound in December. Now, maybe they could have just waited till spring and gone then, but at that point you're looking at a lot of changed circumstances, and maybe a "hot" war to the south.
That’s a very good point. I had forgotten they left Rivendell so late in the year (presumably Frodo needed time to heal?) and likely there would indeed have been a lot of snow in the High Pass. Although, to be fair, on the face of it the prospect of snow did not deter them as their first attempt to cross (before going to Moria) was through a high mountain pass. Still, your explanation makes a lot of sense. Thank you.
This reminds me of the premise of one of our MERP campaigns back in the day. The premise was that Rivendell had also sent out a set of decoy groups to distract attention from Frodo's party. We were one of these decoy groups sent out with the purpose of attracting the attention of Sauron and the Nazgul, as well as actually trying to rally support in the fight against Sauron and to find useful tools and magic to use against him.
If Sauron had figured out the group where likely carrying the ring and sailing towards Gondor he would not need or want to stop them. Why risk a naval battle where it could be lost at sea for a thousand years or end up on the hands of an unknown human of any faction and have to hunt for it or wait for it to turn up. They will need to sail right past his forces to bring it to Minas Tirith. He can track them with birds and spies, while clearing the way for them with the Corsairs. They could end up with the safest sea journey ever with both Gandalf and Saroun turning their wills to making it as safe as possible. Once they are going past Mordor he can drop an entire army on them from both sides of the river. Nothing on Middle earth could stop him getting the ring if he deployed the full force of Mordor against a few boats on the river as they went past.
Hi Robert, great video as always. Thank you for always entertaining content. One other thought. The Fellowship was not supposed to go together the whole way. Other than The Ringbearer everybody was free to stop their journey whenever they would see fit. Sailing by boat would make them stuck together until they would dock by the Mordor.
This idea is from people who have no problem with all the fast travel in fantasy TV. I'm thinking of all those shots from the later _GoT_ seasons where characters were walking up a beach with a ship in the background like it's the arrival gate at LAX.
@@simonw560 You have to travel to a location on foot before you can use fast travel. You COULD, however, have someone travel there WITHOUT the ring, fast travel back to get the ring, THEN fast travel with the ring back to Mt. Doom.
It’s not at all the same. In another reality, we could be arguing about how impossible it would have been for the Fellowship to travel without the boat and magical gifts supplied by Cirdan, and how the trials our characters went through would have been doubled by walking straight through several war zones instead of stealthily sailing South of them. We’d theorize how the pass into Mordor could only have been found by this route and how only with the help of warriors could the Hobbits have any hope of defeating Shelob and surviving Gorgoroth. We have very little information about what could have been found on this alternate route and the possible character growth that could have come out of it, given all other facts about the world are correct. A story of alternative imaginings, with all the justifications, feats of skill, and lucky moments that come with one like the original, isn’t comparable to ignoring the concepts of distance and time.
@@CharlieQuartz @simonw560 (I'm pretty sure) and I were having fun and added PC game fast-travel into the LOTR universe. I like what In Deep Geek does with these videos though. One has to think about how the characters interact throughout the whole story to figure out if one course of action would have been better than another. A fun mental exercise.
@@CharlieQuartz My point is that ships are faster than walking or riding but they are by no means rapid transit. In another reality we'd be discussing what a bummer the story was because while the fellowship was faffing about at sea on their long voyage after traveling for weeks overland just to get to the ship, Rohan fell, Minas Tirith was razed, and the area around Osgiliath and Ithilien was occupied by enemy armies who captured them before they were more than 2 miles away from the Anduin.
It's worth remembering that the Fellowship's original path Eastward *would* have been relatively safe, if they'd only been able to cross Caradhas as planned, instead of taking the unexpected detour through Moria. If they had not lost Gandalf in Moria the Fellowship likely wouldn't have split up or faced many of the hazards they encountered later in the story, although they also may have failed to accomplish certain tasks that were crucial to the success of the mission like you described.
@@RtB68 He definitely knew Gandalf had it. Learning that Gandalf had been given this mighty gift rather than himself, the supposed leader of their order, was one of the first major steps on his path to darkness.
@JohnnyWednesday absolutely What if they mortgaged the ring to Sauron and collected interest payments over a 10 year period, reinvested profits into their own communities, and then, hold on, they BUY Mordor outright when Sauron defaults on payments
The funny thing is that there's a passage in the books where an emissary from Mordor attempts to buy information from the dwarves. Of course, he also threatened them if they refused.
- Have one of Tom Bombadil's squirrels eat the ring. - Ask Tom to teleport the squirrel directly over Mount Doom. - Start creating statues to honor the heroic squirrel that saved Middle-earth.
I love how even though I didn't take this seriously and thought the question ridiculous, he did! He looked at all angles and went in depth to really take the time to explain it all. Just 1 reason I love this channel!
You'd need a pretty big ship. Early sailing ships are comically crew intensive. You'd have the influence of the ring in close proximity to a lot of elven or human sailors. Look out for danger, but also look in.
I love how the majority of the explanations for these "Why didn't they just [X]" questions boil down to the idea being so stupid it wouldn't even be worth bringing up
Robert, my children call LOTR "lord of the snores" and refer to star trek as "star joke", but, this evening, while I was listening to your video and making dinner, for the first time my eldest daughter listened in and said how you make it more interesting and she wants to try the trilogy again 😊 perhaps your videos are inspiring a few of the next generation. Great work my dude 🎉
Smaug getting the ring would have been an interesting. It wouldn't be easy for Sauron to get it back. It might still be laying in his giant pile of treasures to this day.
He would have won anyways as long as the ring is intact, he doesn't really need it on his hand. But considering the legend that dragon fire could perhaps destroy rings of power that would be an uncomfortable position for sauron to be in. Unless he knows the legend is untrue, using force is out the window. He could try to trade, but I don't think dragons like to trade in their treasures very much..
@@brianhaugh152 He absolutely would notice the absence of a single gold ring, even if it were completely powerless and valuable only as a ring of gold, likely within minutes of its theft. He's a dragon, after all.
since finding this channel , in 2 weeks, i have binge watched 90% og your LOTR content , thankyou as reading the silmarillion is an impossible fear for a dyslexic newb
Well, the Pirates of Umbar + Sauron could control the weather and maybe he could sink the ship: "The skirts of the storm were lifting, ragged and wet, and the main battle had passed to spread its great wings over the Emyn Muil, upon which the dark thought of Sauron brooded for a while. Thence it turned, smiting the Vale of Anduin with hail and lightning, and casting its shadow upon Minas Tirith with threat of war. Then, lowering in the mountains, and gathering its great spires, it rolled on slowly over Gondor and the skirts of Rohan, until far away the Riders on the plain saw its black towers moving behind the sun, as they rode into the West." "Do not mount on this sea-monster! If they have them, let the seamen bring us food and other things that we need, and you may stay here till the Witch-king goes home. For in summer his power wanes; but now his breath is deadly, and his cold arm is long." "But Arvedui did not take his counsel. He thanked him, and at parting gave him his ring [the Ring of Barahir], saying: 'This is a ring of worth beyond your reckoning. For its ancientry alone. It has no power, save the esteem in which those hold it who love my house. It will not help you, but if ever you are in need, my kin will ransom it with great store of all that you desire."
Sauron can’t control the weather. I think your talking about Saruman using his voice to cause an avalanche, so I guess he might be able to have some affect on how the ship sailed.
@@Rockoblocko He can, to an extent. Gandolf mentions he was able to harness the furnices in mount doom to send a cloud of darkness over the west to ease the passage of his non-mannish forces.
Wow, you've done it again, Robert - another amazing video that is both well-researched and well-written and that reminds us why we all love Tolkein's legendarium. I salute you, sir!
Somewhere out there is an alternate universe where The Lord of the Rings is a famed pirate adventure and people are questioning why they didn't just walk there.
Next week: Why not dust off plans for a fabled Numenorian airship and take that to Mordor? Surely Denathor must have some records of Saurons/Ar-Pharazôn's second age armada?
There are several other factors to be considered. A sea voyage would need a lot more resources moved onto a ship, adding tricky logistics into the idea, and it's entirely possible that among the many monsters Tolkien wrote or perhaps considered writing he may have included sea monsters. He obviously didn't ignore the sea by any means writing in various ships and such and even included an aquatic monster outside Moria. One then also has to consider Gandalf would be a huge part of the planning. He likely intended at first to accompany Frodo all the way to his destination and guard him the whole time. Durin's Bane was a surprise to him which he would never have even considered risking if he had known he was lurking down there. If one assumes every part of the plan goes perfectly right up until reaching the border of Mordor, there's still a huge problem. Going through Cirith Ungol with Gandalf might be enough to keep Shelob away since he specifically had talent in both light and fire magic which she'd be repulsed by, on top of her certainly not being nearly as dangerous as Gandalf was. He'd also know about that passage and be a far safer guide than Gollum. The problem here lies in the fact that they would still need to sneak 9 people through there and Minas Morgul would be bad enough to worry even Gandalf, especially if they got spotted with Boromir and Gimli in particular definitely not being well-suited to stealth. Now let's go further and assume by incredible luck and circumstance the entire fellowship survives such a terrible and dangerous way in (really the only way since the Black Gate would be impossible for them) and they end up in the plains of Gorgoroth. That's a place regularly guarded and patrolled by hordes of orcs in their own territory and all it takes is one alarm signal going off for that to catch the direct attention of the nearby forces of the Witch King, Sauron in person, or both. That last march across Gorgoroth risks orcs comparable to what Moria had, more trolls, the Nazgul, possibly some corrupted men from the eastern regions, whatever unspecified and horrible beasts Mordor had (there were definitely more outside story meant to be there, created by Sauron or Morgoth twisting natural creatures) which would honestly end up being a bit like the two Shadow games with Tyrion set in Mordor, and the worst-case scenario of Sauron showing up from his rather close tower and personally trying to claim his Ring. The movie-only people might not know but Sauron in the original writing was present in walking, physical form very close to where the Fellowship would end up and that alone is enough that everyone there would be horrified at the thought of him getting so close to Frodo with the Ring. Basically, the chances of the Fellowship as a whole or even only with half of its members surviving a trip through Mordor's mountainous border and across the volcanic plains in order to reach Mount Doom would be so abysmally low they'd almost be offering Sauron what he wanted.
Plus you'd have to find an entire ship's crew, both free of Sauron, Saruman, or Denethor's influence, and the influence of the ring itself. One spy/saboteur could sink the entire endeavor, literally in some cases.
Contrasted by the fact that Ulmo is probably the Valar most supportive of the Children of Illuvatar; the one most willing to interfere directly. I doubt that Sauron or the Umbarians or anything in the sea can challenge Ulmo. Next to Tom Bombadil's realm, the realm of Ulmo is probably the most unforgiving to Sauron's machinations.
Hi Robert, I've seen many of your videos and enjoyed them immensely. This question, as you said, is similar to asking why not the Great Eagles fly into Mordor. Duh. They're large and fast but over the plains of Gorgorath, they would easily be spotted and killed by the wraiths or by Sauron himself, still very powerful despite not wearing The Ring. The same goes for sailing into Mordor. Seriously? Sauron had the entire Corsair fleet at his command. And many other beasts of land and sea to send out and crush any ship Cirdan could have built and no matter how well the elves could have disguised it.. It's the same ilk as asking, when Gandalf yells at the Fellowship, "This foe is beyond any of you. Swords are of no more use here". Then, as he's hanging by his fingernails he yells again, "Fly you fools!" as he drops into the yawning chasm of The Foundations of Stone and Endless Stair. Some have suggested that Gandalf was telling the Fellowship to get themselves some Great Eagles and just fly on into Mordor with The Ring. There's so much wrong with all these suggestions, I hardly need to go down the list but I'll do it anyway. First and most important, I doubt very heavily that Gwaihir, Landroval, Meneldor and all their relations would do something so foolish nor would anyone else with half a brain board a ship going East. Both ideas would have laid The Ring completely bare to Sauron. I don't even think Gwaihir would have allowed The Ring anywhere near himself or his kin. Great Eagles have the power of speech but they aren't magical creatures. They sometimes do the bidding of others but they are their own race, independent, intelligent and wise. The same goes for sailing. Sailing what? It's pretty tough to disguise a ship well enough to sail to Orodruin which has no rivers nearby. As for "Fly you fools!" Honestly. We have to recognize that Tolkien's work is an enormous legendarium written using language befitting and so extensive it took his son's entire lifetime and then some to sort out. Fly you fools? What, sprout wings and fly out of the mines? Jump on the back of the Balrog and catch a ride to Zirak-Zigil? Even Galadriel doesn't have magic that formidable. Gandalf is a Maiar and he got himself killed, sort of, mostly. Fly? Either one would have only succeeded in puttingThe Ring right back onto Sauron's hand. Let's just take a moment to reflect upon the life's work of a man so gifted that he has been able to capture the love of two generations of readers and many to come. His works are unique and a labour of love. The real question to ask is how does the story affect you? Does is send your imagination into overdrive? Do you relate to Eowyn's unrequited love of Aragorn or the sense of failure Theoden son of Thengel so obviously harbours? Do you understand why Gandalf only showed his true powers and magical abilities when he knows that doing otherwise puts the entirety of Middle-earth at risk of failure? What about Ol' Tom Bombadil? He has no answers that make any sense except to say that he is the eldest and fatherless. Perhaps that's what Professor Tolkien intended, for us to make a guess or interpret Iarwain ben-Adar as we will.
Before watching the video - Mordor is landlocked; Sauron had naval allies; the council of Elrond discussed this and discarded the idea; and it would have been a worse story overall.
I think the realism of LOTR shines when you see how difficult it is to do the right thing. It is much easier to be like Sauruman and Denethor who succumb to fear and grief. Frodo's journey is noble but it breaks him physically and emotionally without real rest. It shows that being the right person at the right time is a great responsibility.
It's true that many events that ended up being crucial for the victory of the Free Peoples in the War of the Ring came about because the Fellowship took the path it did. At the same time though, there was no way to predict many of those things at the Council of Elrond. But there were still numerous reasons not to go by sea, the most important of which IMHO was it would have not been a stealth mission. The path the Fellowship set out on was intended to be a route that supported the need for stealth.
A few obvious perils that the Fellowship could have run into travelling by sea: A violent storm, being attacked by some ancient sea creature(s), coming down with sickness such as a fever(the Hobbits in particular), running low on rations, or having to deal with the Corsairs of Umbar. Given Gondor's weakness by the period of the War of the Ring, it's not a stretch to say that the Corsairs probably ran the Belfalas Sea with little or no opposition.
You know what I want to know Robert? Why weren't the dwarves more involved with the fight against Sauron? At least in the movies, it said that Elves and Men fought. Sauron in the Last Alliance, how come the dwarves weren't involved? Why weren't dwarves at any of the other battles. The Elves were leaving Middle Earth but the dwarves remained, wouldn't they want to fight Sauron to, since he was a threat to all the peoples of Middle Earth
Dwarves were a part of the Free Peoples army in the War of the Last Alliance although it is also said there were a few on Sauron's side as well. As far as the War of the Ring goes, the Dwarves of Erebor under King Dain were allied with the Men of Dale and fought bitter battles in the north against an army of Easterlings during the war.
@@Startreader Not all of them. The Noldor typically got along fairly well with the Dwarves but the Sindar and the Dwarves did have a long history of hostility.
The dwarves did fight but it was in the dark, under the mountains vs goblins, orcs out of sight of Man and elves. The dwarves played a large but unwritten role in keeping goblin, orc numbers down with constant clashes / battles underground. Dwarves didn't talk about it, elves knew but again didn't share and humans were oblivious to it. When the fellowship crossed Moria you see the aftermath of such a battle but this one the Dwarves lost because of the Balrog.
Poor Frodo's feet!! Gandalf woulda coulda shoulda taken Frodo and the Ring to Cirdan the morning after he saw the lettering on Frodo's magic ring! hahaha - and Elrond coulda shoulda sent them with horses at LEAST to the misty mountains! Thanks for this vid - LUV IT!!
Does it bother anyone else that Lothlórien, Mirkwood, and the rest of great forest resides in the rain shadow of the Misty Mountains instead on the western/seaward side of the mountains.
Well, it's never made clear what direction the prevailing winds come from. If anything, the rundown-ness of Dunland suggests it's the western side that was in the rain shadow.
I'm making the assumption that the prevailing winds come from the west. Not only is the ocean located to the west of middle earth, but if you head east you eventually hit the deserts of Rhune. If the wind were to come predominately from the east, then middle earth would be much more arrid.
@@rickbowker4179 maybe the prevailing winds are from the north? Hmm, no, that doesn't work either, north of Mirkwood has the Iron Hills, where Dain comes from in The Hobbit. South/South-Westerly? So they end up blowing *along* the Misty Mountains, rather than across them? But then why is the north-west of Mordor a desert? Oh, yeah, it has its own mountain range, that could help explain it. And it's the prevailing wind that blows the fleet up the Anduin to Harlond if we accept that.
It is possible, but also likely that the wind is from the west but get funnelled northward by the mountains of Mordor. This could push moist air up toward mirkwood.
Dont forget all the orch and uruk hais that where spent on Helms Deep and Pelleonors fields. Those would have been a great advantage to blocking Mordor from treshpasing. Its like strategy - One thing after another had to happen for the ring to reach Mordor safe. Here is a question: Did the council and the fellowship has any great master plan planed out that involved all those aspects or did they just went on as they go?
Based on the timescales mentioned there’s a good chance they would have arrived to the ruins of Minas Tirith and Edoras. Yes the presence of the fellowship pushed Saruman and Sauron to war earlier than expected, but the forces of Umbar, Harad, Rhun and Khand took time to assemble and they were already in motion before Pippin or Aragorn touched the palantir. In three months? June of that year? Who knows? At least there’s good reason to believe Ithilien would have been utterly impassable by then.
Had it been lore for the fellowship to go west to Cirdan and sail , I thinks his (Cirdans) role would have played out much different with him being the eldest and likely most powerful of the elves. I think it would have led to a massive showdown with either the wraiths or perhaps even one of the balrogs, A temporary victory for the fellowship and a final contribution from Cirdan after which he would go west and the fellowship continue their path towards (likely) the Bay of Belfalas, from where the story would continue as the route to Mordor from any direction is difficult at best. Its a very interesting theory and I do agree, that the route they ended up taking probably was the best one, simply because it likely was the least expected. But I cant help but feel that I would have loved for them to go by Cirdan, only to explore what he would have added to the equation. Mine is only a simple guess, but I think his role in the story would have been much different. Thank you for everything!
Not for nothing, but Sarurmon, for both hypothetical suggestions... Sarumon's spies locate them in both suggestions, Sarumon would completely and utterly wreak havoc on them and in both wide open areas, would be certain death. If they were flying, gravity kills as they would be struck from the sky. In the water, more specifically in the ocean, if you thought the octopus at the doorway was bad, in the open ocean they would be swallowed whole with not much of a fight.
As my grandfather used to say when I would ask why a story turned out the way it did: “If you don’t like it, write your own story.” The reason they didn’t fly or sail into Mordor is that isn’t the story Tolkien wrote. I’m pretty sure it was always going to be a walking adventure because is was a sequel to The Hobbit, and while it had a different audience, it was the same kind of story.
Sorry for the off topic question, but the art of Círdan (looks similar to how he's depicted in RoP) as an older elf, with grey hair and a beard. However, aren't elves immortal? If they get grey hair and wrinkles, doesn't that suggest they're getting older? Obviously they 'age' but they shouldn't get old as in their new cells aren't replacing old ones quickly enough - which ultimately can only lead to death... I'd have thought they mature to adulthood and then stay like that forever (barring a violent/accidental death of course).
It is worth noting that if they set out from Rivendell towards the coast, by missing Lothlorien they would not only miss out on the gifts but also on the several weeks they spend in Lothlorien before travelling on. So they might well be saving time. Still a terrible idea, for all the reasons mentioned aside from that one, but time alone might actually have been made up.
I might be misremembering, but Elron or similar mentioned explicitly dismissing the Gray Havens path due to too many spies when someone raised it as an opinion
There's a board game called War of the Ring, which allows for such what-if scenarios and there is indeed an event card named The Western Way, that lets the player in charge of the Free Peoples attempt the nautical journey from Gray Havens to Gondor.
Why not give the one ring to Sauron and hope he will be super chill about it?
"Look ... If you give it back, I totally won't enslave and murder you. Pinky swear."
Clearly, Aragorn was the real villain in the books. Sauron offered peace and they rejected him. Aragorn was obviously a war-hungry schemer.
I really laughed out loud on that . I thank you 😊
😂
Exactly, the war could be avoided if Sauron got HIS ring that was stolen from him. He has the right to defend himself, but they needed to take a ring hostage, so they faced the consequences of war!
One does not simply sail into Mordor
Aaargh
👌
Sail, you fools!
👌
Sail casual.
Sauron's U-boats, that's why.
Warg packs
@@henrikg1388 *Sea-warg packs
@@Kacpa2 that was a play on the u-boats being called 'wolf packs' when they grouped up for an attack, so the 'sea' part was not needed m8. 😄
@@DraconimLt correct, but there are wargs in LOTR so it's worth adding "sea" to it
The U stands for Uruk
If they hadn’t gone through Moria Durins bane wouldn’t have been destroyed and the dwarves wouldn’t have been able to reclaim it. And also Gandalf wouldn’t have been able to level up.
The route that the fellowship takes feels like it was destined by Eru illuvatar to solve the problem of not just Sauron but other problems aswell.
There would have been a different set of problems to overcome, some different evil to fight and some different prize to win. Gandalf would’ve still leveled up somehow because it is a fixed point in time and the Balrog might have just continued to slumber forever.
@@Rockoblocko Balrog was waiting for dwarves after their war with orcs when Azog was chopped down. He was indifferent to Balin's actions, perhaps sleeping while meaningless skirmish was happening upstairs, but he was not dormant as he was after he escaped War of Wrath. He was still there, and no longer in stasis. With Gandalf sailing away, who else there was to take him down? Seems like numbers don't matter, a personal exceptional strength is required, and apart from Glorfindel (who is not some demon hunter, his first one was similar to Gandalf's - act of heroism), who else was there? Age of Man was about to come, and ancient, now unbeatable horror would be left lying in well excavated mountains in the middle of their lands.
@@DrLicuid Fair, partially. But no one single being was ever by itself capable of taking out entire massive armies, like ever. Sauron was humiliated and defeated by "Men", Edain under Hurin held the rearguard for Turgon against numerous orcs, trolls AND balrogs, but was taken alive. Even Morgoth needed vast hordes of cannon fodder to take the brunt in battles.
If things were as simple as Sauron, a balrog or even Morgoth could have done the job alone, they would have done so. However, the prospect of Durin's bane left alive, another slumbering balrog appearing or a lingering evil blue wizard in the east or south would spell trouble, the age of men could have come up with something rather than just be swept away. Power and countermeasures, action and reaction. Another age of darkness, but some form of functional weapon or magical force would be developed, equaling a hypersonic cruise missile with a tactical nuclear warhead.
In the unlikely event of the opposite, the Valar would probably stay out of it, but eventually Eru would not, if it turned out to be the end of everything Middle-Earth.
But I say numbers matter.
I agree.
@@DrLicuid Tom Bombadil would have taken him out with a sweet little tune.
I always thought the watcher in the water was tolkein's answer to that. "Look how the ring attracted this ONE abominable creature of the depths that got stuck in a lake" imagine taking the ring out onto open water knowing it attracts things like that?
Water is a difficult enemy for Sauron and Morgoth. Ulmo, the Valar of the Sea was one of the most dedicated enemies of Morgoth. He even aided men and elves during the first age despite it being forbidden. During first and second age the further you got from the ocean, the weaker Ulmo's influence became. Morgoth or Sauron never had any mastery over water. Even during third age orcs don't have fleets. It is just humans serving Sauron who use navies.
Also, Ulmo never "abandoned" the Eldar and Men, even after the fall of Númenor:
"Nonetheless Ulmo loves both Elves and Men, and never abandoned them, not even when they lay under the wrath of the Valar."
In The Unfinished Tales, Christopher Tolkien wrote a passage concerning Nazgul fear of water.
All except the Witch-king were apt to stray when alone by daylight; and all, again save the Witch-king, feared water and were unwilling, except in dire need, to enter it or to cross streams unless dryshod by a bridge.³
³ At the Ford of Bruinen only the Witch-king and two others, with the lure of the Ring straight before them, had dared to enter the river; the others were driven into it by Glorfindel and Aragorn.
The Watcher likely originated in some underground lake where Ulmo's touch was the weakest and only entered the open rivers after the orcs changed the flow of the water. And is one of those eldritch creatures like Ungoliant or the things deep in Moria that were not created by Morgoth but something different.
The idea isn't bad but when you look deeper into the legendarium it doesn't work. Water is an element that opposes Sauron and open seas more so than inland rivers.
@@TonttuTorvinen It is true that water opposes Sauron and Morgoth, but that doesn't mean that it is helpful. As Gandalf said, "There are many things in the deep waters...", and I doubt that those "things" would be incorruptible by the Ring or friendly to humans. "There are many powers in the world, for good or for evil."
@@TonttuTorvinen while I agree with all of that, I still think there's room for both morgoths corrupted creatures and other ring attracted beasts to live in the ocean.i don't think this disproves my take at all, just adds to it
The watcher is probably one of the unnamed beings Gandalf saw in the depths of Moria. Undescribable, Lovecraftian horrors
@@TonttuTorvinen As mentioned, more so talking about those unnameable things with a malicious will instead of the forces of Morgoth and Sauron
What about popping the ring in a envelope "mount doom lava pit" and postman deliverers it
Through rain or shine, festering stinking marshlands or poisonous fumes, the mail must go through!
Also, one does not simply mail a package to Mordor. The customs fees and regulations are brutal!
Customer delivery options (accepting own risk): leave in shed, leave with neighbour, throw into pit ... 😅
"I'll put that ring in an envelope, then put that envelope inside of another envelope, and then mail that envelope to Mount Doom. And then when it arrives...they'll THROW IT IN THE FIRE!!! It's brilliant, brilliant, brilliant, I tell you!"
@@Wolfeson28 Also if Sauron stops the postie delivering the letter than Sauron would be breaking a federal crime. And that is very naughty.
Why not sail on the eagles to Mordor? Best of both worlds
Lmao
The question we’ve been waiting for.
One does not simply sail eagles to Mordor.
Imagine giant ducks instead of eagles!
Lmao
guessing, before finishing the video:
1) shipwrecks are most definitely a thing and the Ring needs to be _destroyed,_ not just gotten rid of
2) the Corsairs of Umbar
3) they wouldn't have known it at the time, but the Ring + Denethor's compromised state is probably a good way to a bad time
4) if someone (Boromir again, or whoever) were corrupted by the Ring on a ship, Frodo now doesn't have the option to just leave
5) hobbits hate boats (edit: except Stoors ofc)
I figured that the Corsairs raiding Gondors south (and that they would be close to Minas Morgul) would immediately deter the fellowship from trying to sail close to Mordor
WHY DIDN'T THEY TUNNEL INTO MORDOR!?!?
@@JoeBLOWFHB Balrogs
Osse is always a Wild Card... 🤔
@@Clyde-Crashcup I don’t think there were Balrogs under Mordor (no I’m not counting Tar Goroth from Shadow Of War)
There's another reason why sailing to Mordor would guarantee failure - the Fellowship would completely evade Gollum, leaving him either scrabbling about in Moria or in the wild country near the Misty Mountains.
And Gollum's role is crucial. Frodo, when standing on the brink of the Cracks of Doom with the Ring, failed. Tolkien's point here was that there are no paragons - no-one so "good" and wholesome that they could withstand the lure of the ruling Ring when its power was at its peak. The quest of the Ring succeeded only because Gollum took the Ring from Frodo and then plummeted to his doom. This is an illustration of evil being its own undoing; and also of the designs of Eru Iluvatar. Gollum was Eru's instrument in the defeat of Sauron.
This, incidentally, is also a reason why flying the Ring to Mordor would also have guaranteed failure.
This is rather hindsight-y. It's not like they met at the Council and were like "okay, we must make sure Gollum tracks us." Plus, who's to say he couldn't have followed them downriver and stowed away on the ship?
There's a difference between foreseeable problems you can plan around and one-off happenings that you cannot.
No one so good and wholesome-except Samwise Gamgee of course
@DarklordZagarna - that's a fair point. I'm not suggesting that the Council could know any of this.
Eru Iluvatar, on the other hand, knew pretty much what would happen. Some of the Ainur (Ulmo especially) could remember much of the Music from which the world was made. Olorin may have remembered some parts of it, but as Gandalf this knowledge was veiled to him. All he had was a feeling that Gollum had some part to play. This could be a vague recollection of a part of the Music; or it could have been prompting from Eru. Tolkien leaves us to guess.
As things turned out, we the readership know that the quest would have failed without Gollum's intervention.
@Zyo117 - yes, upon the border of Mordor.
But could he have withstood the power of the Ring in the Sammath Naur themselves? We don't know. Tolkien's point seems to be that no-one could.
Frodo is portrayed as more understanding, tolerant and kind-hearted than Sam in the books, especially when it comes to Sméagol. Mayhap the One could have found a small sliver of malice with which to work.
@@nigeldepledge3790 I mean, given the proximity to Sauron at the time, and the fact that (I believe) he was the only one who had it in his possession, knew what it was, and willingly gave it up; that kind of strengthens my point. Whether or not he could have withstood the power within the borders of Mordor? Unknown, but evidence does point to him having the best chance if Gollum wasn't around.
hi Robert, this is everyone
Hi Robert, this is everyone.
Robert has an intro as iconic as Jonathan Ferguson...keeper of firearms and artillery at the royal armouries museum in the UK.
Hey robert
Lemme guess.. you listen to Anton at What the Math, you always wanted to say hi to him first.....
No, you're clearly just 4/92000ths of everyone. That's like 0.004% or so.
I'm not sure if you, or anyone else, mentioned this, but another good reason not to sail the One Ring to Mordor is that the Fellowship would all have to spend weeks in very close proximity to one another on a little boat, with the One Ring working to corrupt each of them in turn. Boromir being seduced by the One Ring in the Emyn Muil was bad enough, but imagine if instead of confronting Frodo in the the vast, untamed wilderness, he instead confronted him below deck in the cabins of a boat at sea, with nowhere for Frodo to run or easily escape to.
I've always said, why didn't they put the thing into the nose of a well-programmed tomahawk cruise missile? Easily enough range, fast enough to outrun anything Sauron could send after it, maneuverable enough to dodge the rest, and thoroughly indifferent to any whispering of promises and visions of greatness. It's sad, really, when authors just ignore the obvious solutions to artificially draw out the plot.
I honestly doubt that anyone would be able to give the ring up aside of Bilbo and Sam who just whore it for a very short time and even there he didnt give it up freely but Frodo just snatched it back.. especially if knowing that giving up the ring and all its ... possibilitys would lead to its destruction
@@thefench1 bro... uhh... you know what nevermind
I'm more partial to putting it in the cargo of a Hu-1 chopper with side mounted 50, ain't nothing Morder got that gonna do nothing against a good ol Huey with Fortunate Sum blaring on the speakers
That’s right
Why didn't the Dwarves simply discover Uranium underneath the Blue Mountains and use it to create a nuclear reactor, which could generate enough heat to destroy the Ring and provide Middle-Earth with a supremely potent source of energy?
Should've been the obvious answer, SMH
Why not ski the ring to Mordor?
🤣
Better yet water ski it to mordor
@@nickpeloquin5594 Barefoot water ski for extra style points
Something about a suplus of angry Finnish soldiers who had been told the Elves were invading Russians.
one does not simply ski into mordor.
Why not fly ships to Mordor Earendil style?
Cause the eagles would feel neglected
8:53 You are forgetting one thing: the closer they are to danger the further they are from harm!
So why not build a gigantic trebuchet and fire the One Ring into Mordor?
What about a catapult? 🤔
Wasnt there a LOTR rts that essentially had a catapult/trebuchet nuke?
You'd have to hit the entrance to the Sammath Naur very accurately, and even if you did there's still no guarantee the Ring would fall into the Crack of Doom. In order to do ranging shots, the Fellowship would have needed spotters near Mt Doom, so _someone_ has to go into Mordor anyway 😱.
/jk I know you weren't being serious! Neither was I!!
Force needed probably destroy the mountain 😂
Strap Frodo with Wings and let him aim mid flight @@ceejay0137
Mordor is landlocked in a serious way.
@rodgerbane3825 Rings of Power shows that the surrounding mountains only exist on maps.
The Harnen River leads right up to its southern border, close to the Nargil pass, on the other side of which is a tributary of the Sea of Nurnen, other tributaries of which criss-cross all of Mordor.
@Pfhorrest it's still landlocked, and you better have an invisible ship if you're sailing up that River.
Then how are you getting into Mordor? Scaling the mountains or walking all the way round them to the east?
@@donaldfarquar Or sailing rivers through that eastern gap, navigating rivers in the Eastern lands on a disguised ship, hoping not to get spotted as good guys . Anyways, the 3 heroes deemed not good at sea in this video were the only ones actually attacking Sauron's forces in a ship sailing up the Anduin .
Aren’t there sea monsters aswell to deal with?
True. Much like the watcher in the water. I imagine a kraken or giant squid would be drawn to the one ring.
Yeah, monsters smart enough to find and take the ring even if you tossed them in some deep ocean trench too.
@@baronjutter There are times when Tolkien hints the Ring has sentience. It "slipped" from Isildur's finger in what could be an attempt to get back to Sauron. It "slipped" away from Gollum when Bilbo presented an opportunity to get out from under the mountains. It would seem that if dropped in the ocean, the Ring would somehow manipulate circumstances to further it's journey back to Sauron.
Yeah, lots of wargfish.
Gandalf would have banished the sea monster / make the passage safe for dwarfs to colonise while also dieing / levelling up. The leviathan would fill the role of the Balrog.
One thing not brought up here that I think is very valid point is that going by boat was a complete all or nothing gamble.
One bad wave, one lucky strike, one leak in the hull and the ship drags the one ring and the only person who can safely transport it to the bottom of the ocean, on land they were fighting to keep one tiny, child sized easily hidden thing safe. not an entire floating building.
This video series makes me appreciate Tolkein's world building even more. He really kept one eye on the map and thought this through.
I always felt that the reason why the chose a band of hobbits, plus a wizard, two men, a dwarf and and elf was because they would look, in the eyes of spies, as just another band of travelers. The witch king KNEW that the ring was with Bilbo, and the last time he had seen Bilbo was when Glorfindel took him to safety to Rivendell. So, for all purposes, Sauron must have thought that the ring was kept there. Sending Glorfinfel with the party would be a huge RED FLAG, because he could be recognized. Aragorn always travelled south under disguise, and Gandalf was just an old man known by different names in different places. The hobbits could pass as children. Thus, it makes sense that Sauron was attacking Rohan and Gondor in the south, Erebor to the east, and the realm of Galadriel to the southeast. Sauron was trying to reach Rivendell. I also imagine that Rivendell must have faced attacks from orcs coming from Moria as well. The fellowship as actually a neat plan. It failed during its journey, but the idea made sense. It was a sabotage mission, not an attack. If the eagles tried to take them, Sauron would have easily destroyed them. He had fellbeasts and other creatures that could spot giant eagles carrying people. The giant eagles only passed through because of the chaotic nature of the last battle. Now, to the last point: if they had tried to take the sea, how would they do that? With a ship from the Grey Havens? That could be spotted. The Corsairs of Umbar must have had control over the sea at that point. It was too risky.
You've made some good points and I've learned a few things. There's one grey area though: I heard or read somewhere that Sauron still didn't know where Rivendell was due to Elrond's ability to keep it hidden. Does that make sense?
@@Clyde-Crashcup It does, but I don't think it's that big of an issue. He would probably know the general region, or at the very least he would know that it wasn't within the territory he controlled.
Nah they just know you need a diversified squad to succeed.
Another issue is that Boromir wouldn't have agreed to route anyway because his goal was to get advice in Rivendell and then return home.
If I'd been in Elrond's place, I might have sent a small party of elves and maybe men on one of these routes as a diversion. Even if they did nothing more than go to the sea and return, they would keep Sauron busy with reports from his spies of an elvish party moving in that direction. If they could find a small boat that was seaworthy, they could sail along the coast to provide additional diversion. They could sail back to where they started before they encountered the Corsairs of Umbar. Another option would be landing the boat before they reached where the corsairs were but then going overland. The report of a boat beached along the shore and those in the boat having disappeared would be another worry for Sauron. With Sauron's forces attacking the coast, the small party of elves could join forces with men along the coast to defend those lands. Granted, half a dozen elves are not that important militarily, but if Sauron suspects that one of them has the ring, he's going to be worried.
While I agree with most of your points, I'm not so sure that Aragorn, Boromir and Gimli would be as useless in a sea battle as you seem to think. In this 'period'/age, ramming or boarding were the ways to win, no canons or anything after all. so as long as Gandalf could prevent ramming from being successful, or the ship styles were wrong for that, then it'd come down to hand to hand combat on the ship, which they'd be very useful for.
IMHO they would have been more useful during ship to ship battles. If the bad guys know the ring is on the ship they can't sink it as they want the ring. They'd have to board. Less people on boarding action, the ship offers protection against arrows, the masts etc form obstacles which help the outnumbered side.
Worst case would be likely to be boarded by 2 ships. I doubt 3 ships fit to board at the same time. Being outnumbered would be much less of a problem at sea. They could even counterboard and free the slaves.
Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas literally lead a boarding action in the books, taking the whole fleet of the Corsairs!
Indeed, why not have used the High Pass just north of Rivendell? The goblins there were enormously reduced. They would then have been able to shelter and recharge among the Beorlings and then taken boats all the way to Lorien. After that the journey might have progressed much as it did, but until then it would have likely been safer (Gandalf would likely have been with them the whole way) and easier.
I'd have to go back and reread it, but wasn't it discussed that the pass they attempted was the only one still open at that time of year? A couple hundred miles further north, and you could pretty well assume it was just fully snowbound in December.
Now, maybe they could have just waited till spring and gone then, but at that point you're looking at a lot of changed circumstances, and maybe a "hot" war to the south.
That’s a very good point. I had forgotten they left Rivendell so late in the year (presumably Frodo needed time to heal?) and likely there would indeed have been a lot of snow in the High Pass. Although, to be fair, on the face of it the prospect of snow did not deter them as their first attempt to cross (before going to Moria) was through a high mountain pass.
Still, your explanation makes a lot of sense. Thank you.
Did I just hear that *the One Ring is on SALE* ?
"I'll happily take it off your hands." Damn, you beat me to it.
You get further discount if you have Mordor coupons 😝
This reminds me of the premise of one of our MERP campaigns back in the day.
The premise was that Rivendell had also sent out a set of decoy groups to distract attention from Frodo's party. We were one of these decoy groups sent out with the purpose of attracting the attention of Sauron and the Nazgul, as well as actually trying to rally support in the fight against Sauron and to find useful tools and magic to use against him.
If Sauron had figured out the group where likely carrying the ring and sailing towards Gondor he would not need or want to stop them. Why risk a naval battle where it could be lost at sea for a thousand years or end up on the hands of an unknown human of any faction and have to hunt for it or wait for it to turn up. They will need to sail right past his forces to bring it to Minas Tirith. He can track them with birds and spies, while clearing the way for them with the Corsairs. They could end up with the safest sea journey ever with both Gandalf and Saroun turning their wills to making it as safe as possible. Once they are going past Mordor he can drop an entire army on them from both sides of the river. Nothing on Middle earth could stop him getting the ring if he deployed the full force of Mordor against a few boats on the river as they went past.
Hi Robert, great video as always. Thank you for always entertaining content.
One other thought. The Fellowship was not supposed to go together the whole way. Other than The Ringbearer everybody was free to stop their journey whenever they would see fit. Sailing by boat would make them stuck together until they would dock by the Mordor.
Why not give the ring to Bill the Pony?
I want a video on "What if Bill the Pony got the One Ring?" Maybe next April ...
Shadowfax is a goner if Bill gets the ring...
He'd turn the whole land into a broad lush prairie ripe for the grazing...
Why not skateboard to Mordor? Let it rip!
This idea is from people who have no problem with all the fast travel in fantasy TV. I'm thinking of all those shots from the later _GoT_ seasons where characters were walking up a beach with a ship in the background like it's the arrival gate at LAX.
Yooooo. Why didn't they just fast travel to Mt Doom?!
@@simonw560 You have to travel to a location on foot before you can use fast travel. You COULD, however, have someone travel there WITHOUT the ring, fast travel back to get the ring, THEN fast travel with the ring back to Mt. Doom.
It’s not at all the same. In another reality, we could be arguing about how impossible it would have been for the Fellowship to travel without the boat and magical gifts supplied by Cirdan, and how the trials our characters went through would have been doubled by walking straight through several war zones instead of stealthily sailing South of them. We’d theorize how the pass into Mordor could only have been found by this route and how only with the help of warriors could the Hobbits have any hope of defeating Shelob and surviving Gorgoroth. We have very little information about what could have been found on this alternate route and the possible character growth that could have come out of it, given all other facts about the world are correct. A story of alternative imaginings, with all the justifications, feats of skill, and lucky moments that come with one like the original, isn’t comparable to ignoring the concepts of distance and time.
@@CharlieQuartz @simonw560 (I'm pretty sure) and I were having fun and added PC game fast-travel into the LOTR universe.
I like what In Deep Geek does with these videos though. One has to think about how the characters interact throughout the whole story to figure out if one course of action would have been better than another. A fun mental exercise.
@@CharlieQuartz My point is that ships are faster than walking or riding but they are by no means rapid transit. In another reality we'd be discussing what a bummer the story was because while the fellowship was faffing about at sea on their long voyage after traveling for weeks overland just to get to the ship, Rohan fell, Minas Tirith was razed, and the area around Osgiliath and Ithilien was occupied by enemy armies who captured them before they were more than 2 miles away from the Anduin.
It's worth remembering that the Fellowship's original path Eastward *would* have been relatively safe, if they'd only been able to cross Caradhas as planned, instead of taking the unexpected detour through Moria. If they had not lost Gandalf in Moria the Fellowship likely wouldn't have split up or faced many of the hazards they encountered later in the story, although they also may have failed to accomplish certain tasks that were crucial to the success of the mission like you described.
Why not use the Dwarves and tunnel their way into Mordor?
🤪
Probably has something too do with the big scary worms from the hobbit
That would take them more than 20 years. By then the surface would have been long-since overrun by Sauron and Saruman.
@@WorldWalker128 Revenge is a dish best served cold 😂
Sharky would be dead probably sooner than he was in the actual story as well.
DIGGY DIGGY HOLE
It would take way too long
How about a video why Saruman didn't take Gandalf's ring Narya when he captured him.
Good point! No doubt Gandalf concealed it, but Saruman could possibly have sensed its power.
I think he made is own ring and deemed it to be superior to Gandalf's. So maybe pride? I haven't read the books so I might be BSing here
He didn't know - or even suspect - that Gandalf had it. Nothing else makes sense.
@@RtB68 He definitely knew Gandalf had it. Learning that Gandalf had been given this mighty gift rather than himself, the supposed leader of their order, was one of the first major steps on his path to darkness.
@@SeraphimCramer Yes, you’re right. I recall now that he got miffed at Cirdan for giving it to Gandalf and not him. Correction noted.
I read that as ‘why not sell the one ring to Mordor?’ and I thought ‘Great, now late stage capitalism has even reached Robert from in deep geek’
The financial approach is one oft overlooked
@JohnnyWednesday absolutely
What if they mortgaged the ring to Sauron and collected interest payments over a 10 year period, reinvested profits into their own communities, and then, hold on, they BUY Mordor outright when Sauron defaults on payments
@@Captain_Insano_nomercyWhy buy Mordor when you can work together to fuel a financial war machine for centuries?
The funny thing is that there's a passage in the books where an emissary from Mordor attempts to buy information from the dwarves. Of course, he also threatened them if they refused.
Getting saruman vibes @@samkoani
- Have one of Tom Bombadil's squirrels eat the ring.
- Ask Tom to teleport the squirrel directly over Mount Doom.
- Start creating statues to honor the heroic squirrel that saved Middle-earth.
I feel so bad for that troll being whipped to row a boat
I love how even though I didn't take this seriously and thought the question ridiculous, he did! He looked at all angles and went in depth to really take the time to explain it all. Just 1 reason I love this channel!
[Gollum on a log, 12 miles off the coast] "These waves is precarious, precious"
I love your channel and I am consistently amazed by your capacity to continue to regularly find interesting topics to make videos on!
He actually repeats topics or re-uploads a lot. 😞
So the sea isn’t always right???
Let‘s say that never happened
Stop that!
Left (west) in this case
😂
You'd need a pretty big ship.
Early sailing ships are comically crew intensive.
You'd have the influence of the ring in close proximity to a lot of elven or human sailors.
Look out for danger, but also look in.
Her : He look absent and preoccupied. I'm sure he is thinking about another woman.
Me: Why not sail The One Ring to Mordor?
I love this channel, so, SO much.
I love how the majority of the explanations for these "Why didn't they just [X]" questions boil down to the idea being so stupid it wouldn't even be worth bringing up
Robert, my children call LOTR "lord of the snores" and refer to star trek as "star joke", but, this evening, while I was listening to your video and making dinner, for the first time my eldest daughter listened in and said how you make it more interesting and she wants to try the trilogy again 😊 perhaps your videos are inspiring a few of the next generation. Great work my dude 🎉
Smaug getting the ring would have been an interesting. It wouldn't be easy for Sauron to get it back. It might still be laying in his giant pile of treasures to this day.
He would have won anyways as long as the ring is intact, he doesn't really need it on his hand.
But considering the legend that dragon fire could perhaps destroy rings of power that would be an uncomfortable position for sauron to be in.
Unless he knows the legend is untrue, using force is out the window.
He could try to trade, but I don't think dragons like to trade in their treasures very much..
Once left alone, the ring would've started finding it's way to sauron. Smaug wouldn't notice if a bird or a rat picked the ring up and left.
@@brianhaugh152 He absolutely would notice the absence of a single gold ring, even if it were completely powerless and valuable only as a ring of gold, likely within minutes of its theft. He's a dragon, after all.
since finding this channel , in 2 weeks, i have binge watched 90% og your LOTR content , thankyou as reading the silmarillion is an impossible fear for a dyslexic newb
"The closer we are to danger, the further we are from harm."
-Ancient Took saying
Well, the Pirates of Umbar + Sauron could control the weather and maybe he could sink the ship:
"The skirts of the storm were lifting, ragged and wet, and the main battle had passed to spread its great wings over the Emyn Muil, upon which the dark thought of Sauron brooded for a while. Thence it turned, smiting the Vale of Anduin with hail and lightning, and casting its shadow upon Minas Tirith with threat of war. Then, lowering in the mountains, and gathering its great spires, it rolled on slowly over Gondor and the skirts of Rohan, until far away the Riders on the plain saw its black towers moving behind the sun, as they rode into the West."
"Do not mount on this sea-monster! If they have them, let the seamen bring us food and other things that we need, and you may stay here till the Witch-king goes home. For in summer his power wanes; but now his breath is deadly, and his cold arm is long."
"But Arvedui did not take his counsel. He thanked him, and at parting gave him his ring [the Ring of Barahir], saying: 'This is a ring of worth beyond your reckoning. For its ancientry alone. It has no power, save the esteem in which those hold it who love my house. It will not help you, but if ever you are in need, my kin will ransom it with great store of all that you desire."
Sauron can’t control the weather. I think your talking about Saruman using his voice to cause an avalanche, so I guess he might be able to have some affect on how the ship sailed.
Why would Sauron sink the ring to the bottom of the sea lol
@@Rockoblocko He can, to an extent. Gandolf mentions he was able to harness the furnices in mount doom to send a cloud of darkness over the west to ease the passage of his non-mannish forces.
Wow, you've done it again, Robert - another amazing video that is both well-researched and well-written and that reminds us why we all love Tolkein's legendarium. I salute you, sir!
Somewhere out there is an alternate universe where The Lord of the Rings is a famed pirate adventure and people are questioning why they didn't just walk there.
Hey Robert, could you please do a study of the Dead Marshes please?
Always found that area fascinating.
Really great video explanation. Thanks Robert
Really loving the artwork in this one, it goes well with the story
Your channel is so good! I love when UA-cam recommends every video you ever made.😂
Next week: Why not dust off plans for a fabled Numenorian airship and take that to Mordor? Surely Denathor must have some records of Saurons/Ar-Pharazôn's second age armada?
There are several other factors to be considered. A sea voyage would need a lot more resources moved onto a ship, adding tricky logistics into the idea, and it's entirely possible that among the many monsters Tolkien wrote or perhaps considered writing he may have included sea monsters. He obviously didn't ignore the sea by any means writing in various ships and such and even included an aquatic monster outside Moria.
One then also has to consider Gandalf would be a huge part of the planning. He likely intended at first to accompany Frodo all the way to his destination and guard him the whole time. Durin's Bane was a surprise to him which he would never have even considered risking if he had known he was lurking down there.
If one assumes every part of the plan goes perfectly right up until reaching the border of Mordor, there's still a huge problem. Going through Cirith Ungol with Gandalf might be enough to keep Shelob away since he specifically had talent in both light and fire magic which she'd be repulsed by, on top of her certainly not being nearly as dangerous as Gandalf was. He'd also know about that passage and be a far safer guide than Gollum. The problem here lies in the fact that they would still need to sneak 9 people through there and Minas Morgul would be bad enough to worry even Gandalf, especially if they got spotted with Boromir and Gimli in particular definitely not being well-suited to stealth.
Now let's go further and assume by incredible luck and circumstance the entire fellowship survives such a terrible and dangerous way in (really the only way since the Black Gate would be impossible for them) and they end up in the plains of Gorgoroth. That's a place regularly guarded and patrolled by hordes of orcs in their own territory and all it takes is one alarm signal going off for that to catch the direct attention of the nearby forces of the Witch King, Sauron in person, or both. That last march across Gorgoroth risks orcs comparable to what Moria had, more trolls, the Nazgul, possibly some corrupted men from the eastern regions, whatever unspecified and horrible beasts Mordor had (there were definitely more outside story meant to be there, created by Sauron or Morgoth twisting natural creatures) which would honestly end up being a bit like the two Shadow games with Tyrion set in Mordor, and the worst-case scenario of Sauron showing up from his rather close tower and personally trying to claim his Ring. The movie-only people might not know but Sauron in the original writing was present in walking, physical form very close to where the Fellowship would end up and that alone is enough that everyone there would be horrified at the thought of him getting so close to Frodo with the Ring.
Basically, the chances of the Fellowship as a whole or even only with half of its members surviving a trip through Mordor's mountainous border and across the volcanic plains in order to reach Mount Doom would be so abysmally low they'd almost be offering Sauron what he wanted.
Thanks to all of Robert's other amazingly thorough LOTR videos, I pretty much knew right away that this idea was far from practical.
I initially misread he title as "Why not SELL The One Ring to Mordor?" and thought the answer was pretty obvious.
Sauron: "I would like to purchase your entire stock, please."
This is a very thoughtful and rational explanation. Thanks!
Great video Robert, really interesting points!
Plus you'd have to find an entire ship's crew, both free of Sauron, Saruman, or Denethor's influence, and the influence of the ring itself.
One spy/saboteur could sink the entire endeavor, literally in some cases.
I'd like to see Robert do a video What-If? on taking the ring to Valinor, and daring Sauron to come get it.
Getting the coast would be a problem and even in the sea Sauron would still send foul sea creatures to get them.
Contrasted by the fact that Ulmo is probably the Valar most supportive of the Children of Illuvatar; the one most willing to interfere directly. I doubt that Sauron or the Umbarians or anything in the sea can challenge Ulmo. Next to Tom Bombadil's realm, the realm of Ulmo is probably the most unforgiving to Sauron's machinations.
@@eugenebelford9087hmm..that’s interesting. I didn’t know that
Would love a video on Gandalf’s original plan (how to enter Mordor with the full fellowship) if he hadn’t fell in Moria
Ok so 1 hour after I made this comment you posted the video on exactly that 😂. Absolutely crazy coincidence
Not to mention every "goodly" person you interact with along the way is a potential threat as the ring looks for a new master.
The ring has only one Master, although it might have different carriers, it will always only belong to Sauron
@@xaitat right but the carriers don't know that. They are tempted by the ring with illusions of power.
Great video, as always.
Hi Robert,
I've seen many of your videos and enjoyed them immensely. This question, as you said, is similar to asking why not the Great Eagles fly into Mordor. Duh. They're large and fast but over the plains of Gorgorath, they would easily be spotted and killed by the wraiths or by Sauron himself, still very powerful despite not wearing The Ring. The same goes for sailing into Mordor. Seriously? Sauron had the entire Corsair fleet at his command. And many other beasts of land and sea to send out and crush any ship Cirdan could have built and no matter how well the elves could have disguised it.. It's the same ilk as asking, when Gandalf yells at the Fellowship, "This foe is beyond any of you. Swords are of no more use here". Then, as he's hanging by his fingernails he yells again, "Fly you fools!" as he drops into the yawning chasm of The Foundations of Stone and Endless Stair. Some have suggested that Gandalf was telling the Fellowship to get themselves some Great Eagles and just fly on into Mordor with The Ring. There's so much wrong with all these suggestions, I hardly need to go down the list but I'll do it anyway. First and most important, I doubt very heavily that Gwaihir, Landroval, Meneldor and all their relations would do something so foolish nor would anyone else with half a brain board a ship going East. Both ideas would have laid The Ring completely bare to Sauron. I don't even think Gwaihir would have allowed The Ring anywhere near himself or his kin. Great Eagles have the power of speech but they aren't magical creatures. They sometimes do the bidding of others but they are their own race, independent, intelligent and wise. The same goes for sailing. Sailing what? It's pretty tough to disguise a ship well enough to sail to Orodruin which has no rivers nearby. As for "Fly you fools!" Honestly. We have to recognize that Tolkien's work is an enormous legendarium written using language befitting and so extensive it took his son's entire lifetime and then some to sort out. Fly you fools? What, sprout wings and fly out of the mines? Jump on the back of the Balrog and catch a ride to Zirak-Zigil? Even Galadriel doesn't have magic that formidable. Gandalf is a Maiar and he got himself killed, sort of, mostly. Fly? Either one would have only succeeded in puttingThe Ring right back onto Sauron's hand. Let's just take a moment to reflect upon the life's work of a man so gifted that he has been able to capture the love of two generations of readers and many to come. His works are unique and a labour of love. The real question to ask is how does the story affect you? Does is send your imagination into overdrive? Do you relate to Eowyn's unrequited love of Aragorn or the sense of failure Theoden son of Thengel so obviously harbours? Do you understand why Gandalf only showed his true powers and magical abilities when he knows that doing otherwise puts the entirety of Middle-earth at risk of failure? What about Ol' Tom Bombadil? He has no answers that make any sense except to say that he is the eldest and fatherless. Perhaps that's what Professor Tolkien intended, for us to make a guess or interpret Iarwain ben-Adar as we will.
They knew the English would be patroling the seas in search of French ports.
Alone on a boat on sea when you have nine flying Ring wraiths ?
What could possibly go wrong ??!!
Before watching the video - Mordor is landlocked; Sauron had naval allies; the council of Elrond discussed this and discarded the idea; and it would have been a worse story overall.
That Mick Fleetwood as Saruman image always make me chuckle.
Next week: why not fire the ring into Mordor with a giant cannon?
I think the realism of LOTR shines when you see how difficult it is to do the right thing. It is much easier to be like Sauruman and Denethor who succumb to fear and grief. Frodo's journey is noble but it breaks him physically and emotionally without real rest. It shows that being the right person at the right time is a great responsibility.
It's true that many events that ended up being crucial for the victory of the Free Peoples in the War of the Ring came about because the Fellowship took the path it did. At the same time though, there was no way to predict many of those things at the Council of Elrond. But there were still numerous reasons not to go by sea, the most important of which IMHO was it would have not been a stealth mission. The path the Fellowship set out on was intended to be a route that supported the need for stealth.
A few obvious perils that the Fellowship could have run into travelling by sea: A violent storm, being attacked by some ancient sea creature(s), coming down with sickness such as a fever(the Hobbits in particular), running low on rations, or having to deal with the Corsairs of Umbar. Given Gondor's weakness by the period of the War of the Ring, it's not a stretch to say that the Corsairs probably ran the Belfalas Sea with little or no opposition.
In the 1990s MECCG card game, I used to try this strategy to get the ring to Mordor.
It seldom worked for me, but then neither did any other strategy!
You know what I want to know Robert? Why weren't the dwarves more involved with the fight against Sauron? At least in the movies, it said that Elves and Men fought. Sauron in the Last Alliance, how come the dwarves weren't involved? Why weren't dwarves at any of the other battles. The Elves were leaving Middle Earth but the dwarves remained, wouldn't they want to fight Sauron to, since he was a threat to all the peoples of Middle Earth
Dwarves were a part of the Free Peoples army in the War of the Last Alliance although it is also said there were a few on Sauron's side as well. As far as the War of the Ring goes, the Dwarves of Erebor under King Dain were allied with the Men of Dale and fought bitter battles in the north against an army of Easterlings during the war.
The dwarfs and the elves had a big history of animosity and mutual distrust, didn’t they?
@@Startreader Not all of them. The Noldor typically got along fairly well with the Dwarves but the Sindar and the Dwarves did have a long history of hostility.
The dwarves did fight but it was in the dark, under the mountains vs goblins, orcs out of sight of Man and elves. The dwarves played a large but unwritten role in keeping goblin, orc numbers down with constant clashes / battles underground. Dwarves didn't talk about it, elves knew but again didn't share and humans were oblivious to it. When the fellowship crossed Moria you see the aftermath of such a battle but this one the Dwarves lost because of the Balrog.
Poor Frodo's feet!! Gandalf woulda coulda shoulda taken Frodo and the Ring to Cirdan the morning after he saw the lettering on Frodo's magic ring! hahaha - and Elrond coulda shoulda sent them with horses at LEAST to the misty mountains! Thanks for this vid - LUV IT!!
Does it bother anyone else that Lothlórien, Mirkwood, and the rest of great forest resides in the rain shadow of the Misty Mountains instead on the western/seaward side of the mountains.
I can hear Tolkien now: "Dammit Jim! I'm a Professor of English Language and Literature, not a Biogeographer!"
Well, it's never made clear what direction the prevailing winds come from. If anything, the rundown-ness of Dunland suggests it's the western side that was in the rain shadow.
I'm making the assumption that the prevailing winds come from the west. Not only is the ocean located to the west of middle earth, but if you head east you eventually hit the deserts of Rhune. If the wind were to come predominately from the east, then middle earth would be much more arrid.
@@rickbowker4179 maybe the prevailing winds are from the north?
Hmm, no, that doesn't work either, north of Mirkwood has the Iron Hills, where Dain comes from in The Hobbit.
South/South-Westerly? So they end up blowing *along* the Misty Mountains, rather than across them?
But then why is the north-west of Mordor a desert? Oh, yeah, it has its own mountain range, that could help explain it. And it's the prevailing wind that blows the fleet up the Anduin to Harlond if we accept that.
It is possible, but also likely that the wind is from the west but get funnelled northward by the mountains of Mordor. This could push moist air up toward mirkwood.
Dont forget all the orch and uruk hais that where spent on Helms Deep and Pelleonors fields. Those would have been a great advantage to blocking Mordor from treshpasing.
Its like strategy - One thing after another had to happen for the ring to reach Mordor safe.
Here is a question: Did the council and the fellowship has any great master plan planed out that involved all those aspects or did they just went on as they go?
That troll rowboat is brilliant.
Why not send the Ring into orbit? Seems the last option not considered
Didn't work in Superman II
This was great 😊
Even elven ships can sink. It would take more time than they really had and would be no guarantee of safety.
Based on the timescales mentioned there’s a good chance they would have arrived to the ruins of Minas Tirith and Edoras. Yes the presence of the fellowship pushed Saruman and Sauron to war earlier than expected, but the forces of Umbar, Harad, Rhun and Khand took time to assemble and they were already in motion before Pippin or Aragorn touched the palantir. In three months? June of that year? Who knows? At least there’s good reason to believe Ithilien would have been utterly impassable by then.
This sounds like a good alternative for a harrowing epic, if you like boating.
How much talk is there about teleportation in Tolkien? If any
Had it been lore for the fellowship to go west to Cirdan and sail , I thinks his (Cirdans) role would have played out much different with him being the eldest and likely most powerful of the elves. I think it would have led to a massive showdown with either the wraiths or perhaps even one of the balrogs, A temporary victory for the fellowship and a final contribution from Cirdan after which he would go west and the fellowship continue their path towards (likely) the Bay of Belfalas, from where the story would continue as the route to Mordor from any direction is difficult at best.
Its a very interesting theory and I do agree, that the route they ended up taking probably was the best one, simply because it likely was the least expected. But I cant help but feel that I would have loved for them to go by Cirdan, only to explore what he would have added to the equation. Mine is only a simple guess, but I think his role in the story would have been much different.
Thank you for everything!
Not for nothing, but Sarurmon, for both hypothetical suggestions... Sarumon's spies locate them in both suggestions, Sarumon would completely and utterly wreak havoc on them and in both wide open areas, would be certain death. If they were flying, gravity kills as they would be struck from the sky. In the water, more specifically in the ocean, if you thought the octopus at the doorway was bad, in the open ocean they would be swallowed whole with not much of a fight.
As my grandfather used to say when I would ask why a story turned out the way it did: “If you don’t like it, write your own story.” The reason they didn’t fly or sail into Mordor is that isn’t the story Tolkien wrote. I’m pretty sure it was always going to be a walking adventure because is was a sequel to The Hobbit, and while it had a different audience, it was the same kind of story.
Sorry for the off topic question, but the art of Círdan (looks similar to how he's depicted in RoP) as an older elf, with grey hair and a beard. However, aren't elves immortal? If they get grey hair and wrinkles, doesn't that suggest they're getting older? Obviously they 'age' but they shouldn't get old as in their new cells aren't replacing old ones quickly enough - which ultimately can only lead to death... I'd have thought they mature to adulthood and then stay like that forever (barring a violent/accidental death of course).
It is worth noting that if they set out from Rivendell towards the coast, by missing Lothlorien they would not only miss out on the gifts but also on the several weeks they spend in Lothlorien before travelling on. So they might well be saving time.
Still a terrible idea, for all the reasons mentioned aside from that one, but time alone might actually have been made up.
I might be misremembering, but Elron or similar mentioned explicitly dismissing the Gray Havens path due to too many spies when someone raised it as an opinion
Man, when thinking about sailing to Mordor, I had not the Anduin river in mind at all.
There's a board game called War of the Ring, which allows for such what-if scenarios and there is indeed an event card named The Western Way, that lets the player in charge of the Free Peoples attempt the nautical journey from Gray Havens to Gondor.
why not sell the one ring to mordor
This ring war has gone long enough and is getting quite expensive.
Time to stop the aids for Gondor and get to the negotiation table!
With Sauron being called "The Deceiver" the check would probably bounce. Not a good idea.
Just need an escrow and it might work out
@@WorldWalker128 Sauron "The check-bouncer."
@@enkryptron slippin’ sauron
How about sneaking in through Nurn's supply chain? Hide in a grain shipment?
Bonus points if the supplies were checked, and spoiled grain was disposed of by throwing it into the Mount Doom.
Have you made a video on Anbennar yet? It is similar in genre to the fantasy worlds you've covered and has really in-depth lore.