Honestly I think everyone online is far too pessimistic about George and Winds. My little tinfoil theory is that George has been forced to hybridise his writing style, becoming a gardener who dabbles in architecture. He's trying to build the hanging gardens of Babylon, after all. I believe that he has been working on this for so long because he's writing a dream of spring concurrently with winds, at least in some basic form. He wouldn't want to end up doing a big rewrite like when he had the timegap problem. So would want to work on at least the skeleton of dream of spring at the same time as winds of winter, that way he can avoid writing himself into a corner again. He has to make dozens of character arcs and plotlines line up just right. You can't garden that. I also think that this would explain his unusual behaviour regarding Winds. He avoids talking about it at all costs yet he publishes entire chapters; It's like he's worried he'll reveal too much by accident. Maybe you guys think I'm crazy. I think it makes perfect sense.
But. If that was the case, he would've been working on Winds as he was writing the last one, that took 7 years to write. And that was only half of the book bc he had split the books... So even with a "head start" it still took 7 years to finish the second half.. The story was just as huge last time, and the need to have them flow together was just as important. I just think it's A LOT to write.. And it has to be hard not to write himself in corners. I really do hope he is working on both.. But if he's not.. If Dream hasn't been started yet, there is no way it'll ever be finished.. Not even counting all the other books he's going to try to write inbetween Winds and Dream. 😞 And that is why I'm hoping you're right and he's at least started it.. Lol
@@Richard_Nickerson I saw somewhere that he has denied working on dream, but I don't see why he would be truthful about it if he was. He wouldn't want to be flooded with hectoring questions about a book that barely exists yet.
The Baristan and Renly camaraderie, Baristan met him when Renly was just a boy, got to watch him grow up, when Renly wasn't at Storm's End. He was probably like an uncle to him. Renly being a young-Robert clone and with his natural charisma, and Baristan with his honor and reputation, they were probably charmed by each other. I hadn't really considered this until you pointed out the obvious.
"You're spoiling it!" Sansa doesn't even really care that Joffery is injured, never mind Micah and her sister. She's just all wrapped up in her little fantasy world of her magical day out riding with the prince. What a frickin' air-head.
In partial defense of the 11-year-old who's been gaslighted her entire life, I took her smiling at Arya giving up on brushing Nymeria to be one of the most authentically sisterly things Sansa ever does. She's thinking of a kennel master saying that dogs are like their masters; that's what amused her, just like it amused you. There are three responses to a dangerous situation: Fight, flight, or freeze. Arya's primary response is fight, while Sansa's is freeze. She may have been unable to speak when Joffrey was menacing Arya because she was frozen in fear, and only regained her ability to speak when Arya was out of imminent danger. Once the threat was over, Sansa began trying to re-instate her romantic fantasy. "Every thing's normal, everything's fine, my fiancé didn't just straight up try to murder my sister and disfigure a young commoner. It was all a big misunderstanding, everything's really rainbows and roses." Don't get me wrong, Sansa is much dumber than Arya and her lack of loyalty to her sister is repugnant. I just don't think she should be written off at age eleven. That's all.
Regarding Ilyn Payne being in Cersei's honor guard, the Lannisters seem quite fond of Payne. He was given an office he was ill-suited for as a reward, allegedly for losing his tongue over saying Tywin actually ran the kingdom during the reign of Aerys II, Jaime chose to trust Ilyn with training him and keeping it a secret (yes he has no tongue but it's not impossible for someone without a tongue to communicate), and Cersei trusted him to know her orders to kill herself and Tommen if the Battle on the Blackwater had gone poorly.
I thought the Lannisters were horrible to Ilyn Payne by not getting him a teacher to teach him writing and reading. I got the impression Jamie trusted him because Jamie thought he was possibly the only Lannister man who couldn't communicate like a person with a tounge could.
I think k an 11 year old Sansa being raised by a septa, behaved exactly as the septa would have expected. you don't ever cross the crown. I think Sansas greatest criticism is that she is expecting the fairy tale and is not prepared for reality.
To be honest, I actually kinda like Sansa, so I hope you don’t think I’m biased when I say that you have been overly critical of her actions and behavior particularly towards the end. When Sansa told Arya to “stay out it”, I think this a subtle way of her protecting her younger sister from a dangerous situation. Also, you say that Sansa doesn’t care about Joffrey attacking her sister, but you even quoted the passage where she’s crying and unsure of what to do because this is an extreme situation, especially for an 11 year old girl.
Also this is the future king and the man that she will be betrothed to. Those are some huge reasons for her to be scared to say anything against joffrey. You're right. She's a child out of her depths, not an evil person.
It's easy for her to tell her kid sister to quit it. But her future husband and king? How is she supposed to speak against him when her entire life she has been told she must be obedient and dedicated to being his wife?
@@kat8559 I was going to mention that in my comment, but I didn't want it to be too long. This is the chapter where she first gets some inkling of how the world isn't as idealistic as she thinks, hence the "stop it, both of you, you're ruining it" thing. Joffrey isn't the "noble" prince she thought he was and Arya as she said previously tends to be a wild card, so things don't go how she thinks they should.
She is drunk. They definitely say that she had more wine that she was used to having, and yet she still has sense enough to tell Joffrey that they should go back to the camp. She doesn't explicitly say why because she doesn't want to be afraid/embarrassed in the company of her possible future husband.
Praise the old gods and the new! I was just about to give up on UA-cam and switch to music. I've got a LOT of organizing to do, and you two are going to help me a lot. Edit: First!? Wow.
Abstractions like death, good, evil, right and wrong tend to be difficult to understand for solipsists. Sansa comes across as exactly that, but then again so does Catelyn. Joffrey is a sociopath by convenience early in the story but once Robert dies, the psychopathy is given free reign, pun intended?
Sansa antis will never cease to amaze me with stupidity. Some people really don't want to actually read her chapters and see what a great character she is.
It seems more likely that you somehow managed to read the books without noticing what a completely terrible person she is. It’s not subtle. It starts in her first few chapters and it builds on itself
Is it possible that Payne was there simply because George could not think of a better way to introduce him? If he were first seen at the capital people would, at most, notice him and then move on without going into his backstory.
First she thinks that Joffrey is the most beautiful man she’s ever seen, not too much later she thinks Renly is the most beautiful man she’s ever seen and a bit later at the hands’ tourney she think loras tyrell is the most beautiful man she’s ever laid eyes on... yea, ok.
It seems,, some people seem upset about the upcoming "Rise of the Dragon" book. But since it is to be taking a different point of view. Could your "Lies of the Andals' (Which I constantly listen to) be verified as true?!
I also have to disagree with part of your analysis. I think that she was tryin to protect her sister when she told her to stay out of it. Drunk or not, I think she realized that things had gone really wrong really fast and she was having a case of; "Please don't provoke the drunk guy with the sword." Yes, we all cheered when she clocked the jerk, but if her wolf had not been there it would have ended very differently. Sansa may have thought too much about potential consequences to her fairy word, but Arya did not think enough about potential consequences in the real world.
Would it be normal for The King's Justice to travel with the King? It seems possible, but still curious. Especially with the wording "it was the other one".
Okay so borderline conspiracy theory about why Illyn Payne was there. If he was the head of the dungeons, could this be when Jaqen H'ghar, Rorge, and Biter were led into the Black Cells?
Sansa is a real p.o.s.! I honestly don't feel bad for all the messed up things that happened to her before and after Ned dies. You don't side with outsiders against your family.
Lord Cregan Stark would say Sansa definitely inherited her mother's everything. While Arya is to me like Ned Stark. And as time goes she's like him and his sister too.
Yep, this chapter prowes, to me personally, that Sansa and Arya are two different worlds. Arya is more like Daenerys without dragons and more independant, while Sansa is following the aristocratic ladyship tradition in which every highborn is looking down on their subjects like piece of meat instead of human beings like themselves. That is why I feel that Sansa is going to die, because she indirectly led her own family members to doom instead helping them to silence those that waited the green light to hurt them. Especialy since Ned and Bobby B are best friends and Bobby trusts Ned more than anyone else despite that Ned even hurt Robert with truths, like for an example, when Ned refused to participate in the assasination of Daenerys and told Robert a F you only to be pardoned and agreed with Ned that Dany isn't responsible for his shitty life and that she should live.
I have an alternative, more positive read of Sansa's character in this chapter. 1. I don't think Sansa is disgusted by the smallfolk. To me Sansa is disappointed that Arya wants to do Arya things (learning about the lives of smallfolk, exploring, having awesome adventures with her friends) instead of Sansa things (talking with highborns, doing needlework, playing the high harp and having lady's teatime while wearing pretty dresses). The same way Arya is disappointed that Sansa wants to do Sansa things instead of Arya things. The paragraph ends with "[Micah] slept in the meat wagon and smelled of the slaughtering block. Just the sight of him was enough to make Sansa sick, but Arya seemed to prefer his company to hers." I see it as Sansa being jealous of Arya's friends. Also maybe it could be interpreted as Sansa going 'ew, peasants' when seeing the butcher's boy, but I am in my 20s and I try to listen to music when cutting up meat for cooking because sometimes I feel a bit queasy when I think about the meat being a dead animal, so it could also be interpreted as 'ew, he reminds me of dead animals'. The Arya Sansa opposites thing I see here is Arya not minding death (her path in the later series) and Sansa not liking death (her 'lady Lysa was so wise to keep us out of the war' approach). 2. I haven't reread the books lately but I can't recall Sansa talking to smallfolk much. Sure during the battle of the blackwater she ordered Lance to be taken to a healer. But people were freaking out and I don't think it would have been better if she said 'please help Lancel' instead of whatever she actually said. Only other I vaguely remember is the creepy singer. But the only people I remember Sansa ordering around are Arya and people working in positions where it's expected of them to do the things Sansa orders. Arya asks Micah because he isn't supposed to be doing it and they are friends. Even the fighting teacher Ned hired was disguised as a dancing instructor. 3. About the Micah incident. The way I read it Sansa was trying to save her little sister. First she tried to stop Arya from escalating the situation, failed. Can't say for certain because Joffrey is drunk but I think he would not have killed Mycah if Arya hadn't jumped in. Then she tried to get them to stop fighting by yelling at them, failed again. "Sansa didn't know what to do. She watched helplessly, almost blind from her tears." Then when her little sister gets the upper hand she tries to stop the fighting again, although it was pretty much already over. Yeah, Sansa is completely useless in the fight but she did try. It's not like things would have gone great for them if Sansa and Arya both tried to beat up the crown prince in the woods. I have seen a lot of people comment how Sansa started the war, but I think the war might have started right here if both Stark girls tried to fight Joffrey. 4. Sansa didn't say 'leave her alone' because Sansa is drunk and frozen in shock, we see her think that Joffrey is mad with alcohol, Sansa doesn't have any authority over Joffrey and Sansa probably doesn't find Arya as intimidating. 5. Sansa is in no way capable of finding Arya in the woods. We are shown earlier that Sansa doesn't like traveling or exploring or getting dirty. She seems the type to get lost in the woods and then get eaten by a bear, even when she's sober. Going to find her sister in the woods while she's drunk seems likely to get her and therefore possibly Joffrey and everyone else in the resulting war dead. 6. She does what she is supposed to do. She tells a trusted adult what happened. Too bad Ned either can't or won't save Micah. I don't see why he couldn't convince Robert to give an order that Micah and Arya are to be unharmed. But maybe this is one of those 'second son' things that make Ned selfconcious. 7. Also for the people who haven't noticed SHE WAS DRUNK, possibly for the first time in her life. Sadly when telling Ned, she probably left out the part before the Micah incident where she was drinking and that's why Ned thought Sansa lied. I think she got blackout drunk and was telling the truth the next chapter. Edit: grammar and wording.
I like your reply and you reason out your arguments. Unfortunately, this looks to be an unpopular stance. It seems that some characters get a pass and some do not. Like you you said Arya might very well have escalated the situation, but she is cool and so she gets a pass; while Sansa is not cool so every thing she does is stupid and wrong.
@@andrewniehoff8612 to me the difference between Arya and Sansa is that Arya accepts that they have different personalities and want to do different things. Arya doesn't want to force Sansa to things her way but the understanding doesn't go the other way, Sansa wants to force Arya to do Sansa things which obviously annoys a free spirited person like Arya. We learn from the first Arya chapter that she would actually sometimes like to do ladylike things if she wasn't so bad at them and constantly judged, but Sansa on the other hand looks down at Arya for doing tomboyish activities.
@@otto_jk In this chapter I think it's just that Septa Mordane told Sansa to call Arya so they could go traveling in the wheelhouse. So Sansa was trying her best to get Arya to behave, by attempting to throw around her big sister authority. I don't remember any specific instances where Sansa has been very judgy, but overall I remember thinking she was either jealous of Arya's freedom or didn't understand why Arya would act like she does. Kind of like a very punctual person might not understand why someone would be constantly late. Sansa overall is described as a 'proper lady' (westerosi ideal) by nature so she doesn't quite understand Arya's non-ladylike behavior, imo.
@@andrewniehoff8612 Yes thank you, you and the original comment from this thread are the only ones with some sense here. I was rather shocked to see such a hateful comment section towards Sansa. I wonder if anyone in this comment section even understands what’s character development? Lol Just this comment section alone is making me unable to watch this video
The funny part is Sansa could have been even worse if the original draft actually happened. That's a strange thing to say. But yeah so many things she does or doesn't care about really show how cat like she was like her "friend" being give to little finger and not asking or sweet robin being poisoned.
Sansa is too infuriating for words. So rather than comment on her specificly, I'll note something Sansa-adjacent. I think it's interesting that the sight of Ser Illyn fills Sansa with "a terror as overwhelming as anything she'd ever felt" and the Hound appears behind her and "grasps her shoulders with strong hands". This is intriguing because further on during her wedding to Tyrion, Sansa reflects how "she had dreamt of her wedding a thousand times, and always pictured how her betrothed would stand behind her tall and strong, sweep the cloak of his protection over her shoulders...". So the first time Sansa meets The Hound, he essentially does exactly what Sansa has always dreamt her husband would do. That's damned good- albeit regrettable- foreshadowing. It pains me to admit there's a strong chance my favorite character will end up with the likes of Sansa😒.
You think she'll live that long? I actually think she has a crush on him or something, some kind of projection, because he was for a time the only one that she was able to feel somewhat safe with.
@@hypatiakovalevskayasklodow9195 I don't know if she'll survive the entire story; Lady dying in Nymeria's place has me curious if Sansa might die in Arya's place. But I do think Sansa and The Hound have feelings for each other, though I don't think Sansa realizes she does.
This is why I hate Sansa not because she’s a lady and don’t fight. Her lack of loyalty to her caring family is disgusting. Most of the characters are in a toxic family and are still loyal to them. (Ex. Jaime, Daenerys, Theon,etc)
Me too. Her earlier brattiness can be forgiven due to being a spoiled sheltered brat, but as the books go on she should have matured. She doesn't, and spoiler alert: the preview of book 6 where she's pretending to be Alayne Stone, she is still a spoiled snob, except she's become even more like her mother.
Same here. It’s not about her fighting ability, in fact my favorite characters are not warriors - she has two insufferable traits at the same time: she’s naive(ignorant) AND judgmental. She even admits to being naive in the series (S3) but she remained highly superficial and prejudicial toward other people. At that point she’d undergone enough suffering that one might assume she’d become a bit more humble or egalitarian, but no such luck.
@rhaenyralikesyoutube6289 Not to mention she's allowing Baelish to kill her cousin so she can be lady to a dude that clearly hates her and will just be her husband in nothing but name.
In my opinion it has already made her better. Allow me to explain. While I like her and do not think she is as bad as many portray her, I will admit that she does not leave the first book looking very well. I think that some characters: such as Robert are shown in a good light at first and only later do we begin to see his flaws. Stannis, on the other hand, is shown at his worst right off the bat and his better qualities and improvements are shown later. I believe that Sansa fits into the Stannis category. In the beginning she was selfish, entitled and yes, very naïve. Well, book one took care of that, or at least a great deal of it. Starting in Book Two she is much more empathetic, she save Sir Dontos and urges Joff to be a better brother. During the second part of the book she prays for people, takes charge when Cersi nops out and has Lancel's wounds treated. She also says that when she is queen she will make the people love her, which shows, if nothing else she does not enjoy cruelty... unlike some people I could mention. So, while she is far from perfect, I believe her character is already better than when she started.
Bear with me - I think this chapter should be called "A Coup on the Trident". It was no an honour guard meeting Robert there. The Master of Laws (and the only other Baratheon available), the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard and the King's Justice came there for quite a different purpose. By that time, Renly has figured out who Cersei's children were, decided to act. He did not have the irrefutable proof, so he choose not to inform Selme prior to talking with the King, who was the only one capable of ordering action from the Lord Commander of his Kingsguard, and, the Kingsguard with Robert were all Lannister loyalists, plus the Hound, so someone had been needed to contain them. Cersei was very lucky to had met them before Robert, and reminded Paine were his loyalties were. It is the only time she expressed any interest in participating in the affairs of Robert's Small Council. I imagine she confronted Robert before Renly had a chance to talk with him, and either brought up Renly scandalous habits and discredited him, or threaten a huge scandal with implication of her father backing her up - I do not know what she did, but Robert changed drastically, I would go as far as to say that he changed into a broken man. Before this chapter, he had publicly dismissed Cersei to get to see Lyanna's resting place, was active enough to wake Ned up for a early ride, had a very good grasp of upcoming troubles, and, despite the fact that Varis' note contained only the news of Danaerys' wedding, came to a pretty close picture of the power balance to what Eliro had feeding Vyseris. After this chapter Robert withdrew from all semblance of ruling, except for his anti-Targaryan paranoia, stoked by Varis. He did cry for help several times, he could no longer do officially. The first thing he commanded after returning to the capital is to officially instruct Ned to arrange a tourney - the previous tourney they were both present was called for a very specific purpose, and Ned hadn't been likely to have forgotten what had happened. Also, he very specifically told Ned that he had been fearful leaving the realm to Jeoffrey, and wanted nothing more than to become a "Sellsword King" - to get away from it all. So, it looks to me, that Robert was too shocked to acknowledge the truth about his children, to lose face in front the Seven Kingdoms, and to get into an open conflict with Tywin Lannister (Ned was not sure he would during his Riverland decision), and he even mentioned "Lannister gold, when Cersei wanted the pelt of a direwolf. I could be imaging thing, but that is how the chapter reads to me. Also, Cersei knew her son, and there was a good chance that he would provide a useful distraction being left alone with Sansa, which would neutralize Ned.
Lizard Lions may be related to crocs and gators, but given where they evolved, they must be something else. I've asked how they survive the winter, and I have a theory. My theory is that they die out in the winter, but first they bury their 🥚s near underground hot springs, where they can keep warm while lying dormant. The 🥚s then hatch in the Spring.
I think both Joff and Arya were in the wrong here. Yes, he cut the boy's face, but Arya walloped him hard with that stick. Imagine if it concussed him, or if it had been a sword. She would have scalped him. She overreacted, in my opinion. Yet, Sansa was given a glimpse of who Joffrey really is, and ignored it.
I do not think she completely ignored it. I see part of this chapter differently from our hosts. They said she told Arya to stay out of it because she did not care about the boy, but just a moment ago they read that she was afraid. I think she caught a glimpse of what Joff was and that she was trying to prevent her sister from provoking it. I could be wrong.
My theory is finishing the series scares the hell out of George and it’s not going to happen unless he steals your ideas.
LOL
Honestly I think everyone online is far too pessimistic about George and Winds.
My little tinfoil theory is that George has been forced to hybridise his writing style, becoming a gardener who dabbles in architecture.
He's trying to build the hanging gardens of Babylon, after all.
I believe that he has been working on this for so long because he's writing a dream of spring concurrently with winds, at least in some basic form.
He wouldn't want to end up doing a big rewrite like when he had the timegap problem.
So would want to work on at least the skeleton of dream of spring at the same time as winds of winter, that way he can avoid writing himself into a corner again.
He has to make dozens of character arcs and plotlines line up just right.
You can't garden that.
I also think that this would explain his unusual behaviour regarding Winds. He avoids talking about it at all costs yet he publishes entire chapters; It's like he's worried he'll reveal too much by accident.
Maybe you guys think I'm crazy. I think it makes perfect sense.
I've been hoping he's been writing both books simultaneously for a while now myself.
@@Richard_Nickerson I think I’m getting desperate now so I believe it
But.
If that was the case, he would've been working on Winds as he was writing the last one, that took 7 years to write. And that was only half of the book bc he had split the books... So even with a "head start" it still took 7 years to finish the second half..
The story was just as huge last time, and the need to have them flow together was just as important. I just think it's A LOT to write.. And it has to be hard not to write himself in corners.
I really do hope he is working on both.. But if he's not.. If Dream hasn't been started yet, there is no way it'll ever be finished.. Not even counting all the other books he's going to try to write inbetween Winds and Dream. 😞
And that is why I'm hoping you're right and he's at least started it.. Lol
@@Bitter765 amen lol
@@Richard_Nickerson I saw somewhere that he has denied working on dream, but I don't see why he would be truthful about it if he was.
He wouldn't want to be flooded with hectoring questions about a book that barely exists yet.
The Baristan and Renly camaraderie, Baristan met him when Renly was just a boy, got to watch him grow up, when Renly wasn't at Storm's End. He was probably like an uncle to him. Renly being a young-Robert clone and with his natural charisma, and Baristan with his honor and reputation, they were probably charmed by each other. I hadn't really considered this until you pointed out the obvious.
"You're spoiling it!"
Sansa doesn't even really care that Joffery is injured, never mind Micah and her sister. She's just all wrapped up in her little fantasy world of her magical day out riding with the prince. What a frickin' air-head.
In partial defense of the 11-year-old who's been gaslighted her entire life, I took her smiling at Arya giving up on brushing Nymeria to be one of the most authentically sisterly things Sansa ever does. She's thinking of a kennel master saying that dogs are like their masters; that's what amused her, just like it amused you.
There are three responses to a dangerous situation: Fight, flight, or freeze. Arya's primary response is fight, while Sansa's is freeze. She may have been unable to speak when Joffrey was menacing Arya because she was frozen in fear, and only regained her ability to speak when Arya was out of imminent danger. Once the threat was over, Sansa began trying to re-instate her romantic fantasy. "Every thing's normal, everything's fine, my fiancé didn't just straight up try to murder my sister and disfigure a young commoner. It was all a big misunderstanding, everything's really rainbows and roses."
Don't get me wrong, Sansa is much dumber than Arya and her lack of loyalty to her sister is repugnant. I just don't think she should be written off at age eleven. That's all.
Sansa gave us the number of the king’s party so it is obviously wrong. She can’t count lol
Regarding Ilyn Payne being in Cersei's honor guard, the Lannisters seem quite fond of Payne. He was given an office he was ill-suited for as a reward, allegedly for losing his tongue over saying Tywin actually ran the kingdom during the reign of Aerys II, Jaime chose to trust Ilyn with training him and keeping it a secret (yes he has no tongue but it's not impossible for someone without a tongue to communicate), and Cersei trusted him to know her orders to kill herself and Tommen if the Battle on the Blackwater had gone poorly.
I thought the Lannisters were horrible to Ilyn Payne by not getting him a teacher to teach him writing and reading. I got the impression Jamie trusted him because Jamie thought he was possibly the only Lannister man who couldn't communicate like a person with a tounge could.
I get so excited when I see a new video especially a chapter breakdown. Now I’m looking forward to going to work (I’m a truck driver)
I think k an 11 year old Sansa being raised by a septa, behaved exactly as the septa would have expected. you don't ever cross the crown. I think Sansas greatest criticism is that she is expecting the fairy tale and is not prepared for reality.
To be honest, I actually kinda like Sansa, so I hope you don’t think I’m biased when I say that you have been overly critical of her actions and behavior particularly towards the end. When Sansa told Arya to “stay out it”, I think this a subtle way of her protecting her younger sister from a dangerous situation. Also, you say that Sansa doesn’t care about Joffrey attacking her sister, but you even quoted the passage where she’s crying and unsure of what to do because this is an extreme situation, especially for an 11 year old girl.
Also this is the future king and the man that she will be betrothed to. Those are some huge reasons for her to be scared to say anything against joffrey. You're right. She's a child out of her depths, not an evil person.
It's easy for her to tell her kid sister to quit it. But her future husband and king? How is she supposed to speak against him when her entire life she has been told she must be obedient and dedicated to being his wife?
@@kat8559 Also Joffrey is a raging drunk at that moment. Who knows how he will react to anything. And my firm belief is that Sansa is drunk as well.
@@kat8559 I was going to mention that in my comment, but I didn't want it to be too long. This is the chapter where she first gets some inkling of how the world isn't as idealistic as she thinks, hence the "stop it, both of you, you're ruining it" thing. Joffrey isn't the "noble" prince she thought he was and Arya as she said previously tends to be a wild card, so things don't go how she thinks they should.
She is drunk. They definitely say that she had more wine that she was used to having, and yet she still has sense enough to tell Joffrey that they should go back to the camp. She doesn't explicitly say why because she doesn't want to be afraid/embarrassed in the company of her possible future husband.
Really enjoying the chapter by chapter analysis guys :)
Praise the old gods and the new! I was just about to give up on UA-cam and switch to music. I've got a LOT of organizing to do, and you two are going to help me a lot.
Edit: First!? Wow.
Abstractions like death, good, evil, right and wrong tend to be difficult to understand for solipsists. Sansa comes across as exactly that, but then again so does Catelyn. Joffrey is a sociopath by convenience early in the story but once Robert dies, the psychopathy is given free reign, pun intended?
I loved every second of arya in this chapter calling her sister out on her bullshit lmfaoo 💀
Lol I wouldn't call arya humble by any means. She's entitled, and welcome to it. Down to earth, much more so. Love this cast. Solid all the way around
Arya isn’t humble but she’s not an elitist or crown-chaser either
@@realSimoneCherie yeah, you got it.
Sansa antis will never cease to amaze me with stupidity. Some people really don't want to actually read her chapters and see what a great character she is.
It seems more likely that you somehow managed to read the books without noticing what a completely terrible person she is. It’s not subtle. It starts in her first few chapters and it builds on itself
Good points on whitewalls and Payne!
Is it possible that Payne was there simply because George could not think of a better way to introduce him? If he were first seen at the capital people would, at most, notice him and then move on without going into his backstory.
First she thinks that Joffrey is the most beautiful man she’s ever seen, not too much later she thinks Renly is the most beautiful man she’s ever seen and a bit later at the hands’ tourney she think loras tyrell is the most beautiful man she’s ever laid eyes on... yea, ok.
It seems,, some people seem upset about the upcoming "Rise of the Dragon" book. But since it is to be taking a different point of view. Could your "Lies of the Andals' (Which I constantly listen to) be verified as true?!
I also have to disagree with part of your analysis. I think that she was tryin to protect her sister when she told her to stay out of it. Drunk or not, I think she realized that things had gone really wrong really fast and she was having a case of; "Please don't provoke the drunk guy with the sword."
Yes, we all cheered when she clocked the jerk, but if her wolf had not been there it would have ended very differently. Sansa may have thought too much about potential consequences to her fairy word, but Arya did not think enough about potential consequences in the real world.
Aurochs aren't basically just cows.
Yeah, more like bison. Or MASSIVE Scottish long hairs.
@@Richard_Nickerson I believe they are bigger and taller than both cows or bison with longer horns and legendary for their aggression.
@@paulmphoto
Hence why I added the "MASSIVE Scottish long hairs." Look them up if you don't know what they are.
They’re basically cows, like tiger’s are basically cats.
Loving these! Please continue the series ❤️
Would it be normal for The King's Justice to travel with the King? It seems possible, but still curious. Especially with the wording "it was the other one".
OOTGH !!!!!
Okay so borderline conspiracy theory about why Illyn Payne was there. If he was the head of the dungeons, could this be when Jaqen H'ghar, Rorge, and Biter were led into the Black Cells?
Omfg the commercials...
23:40 ME says Joffrey is 14 I’m pretty sure he’s actually 12
I really enjoyed your chapter by chapter analyses! Im re-reading (again). How come you two stopped?
Sansa only yelled at Arya.. Wow, the Tullys need to die
oh no sansa 😅
Sansa is a real p.o.s.! I honestly don't feel bad for all the messed up things that happened to her before and after Ned dies. You don't side with outsiders against your family.
Especially, if you are ostensibly a Stark. Sure, she's young, but that's a flimsy blanket excuse to say "kids will be kids."
so her being violently abused is okay with you? an 11-12 year old child being abused god ur disgusting
🙌!!!
Na..please, by all means, do get bogged down.😅
I am equally excited and disgusted to listen this
Lord Cregan Stark would say Sansa definitely inherited her mother's everything. While Arya is to me like Ned Stark. And as time goes she's like him and his sister too.
Yep, this chapter prowes, to me personally, that Sansa and Arya are two different worlds. Arya is more like Daenerys without dragons and more independant, while Sansa is following the aristocratic ladyship tradition in which every highborn is looking down on their subjects like piece of meat instead of human beings like themselves.
That is why I feel that Sansa is going to die, because she indirectly led her own family members to doom instead helping them to silence those that waited the green light to hurt them. Especialy since Ned and Bobby B are best friends and Bobby trusts Ned more than anyone else despite that Ned even hurt Robert with truths, like for an example, when Ned refused to participate in the assasination of Daenerys and told Robert a F you only to be pardoned and agreed with Ned that Dany isn't responsible for his shitty life and that she should live.
Sansa apologists have no leg to stand. Being eleven years old is no excuse. Being sheltered and brain-washed to be exactly this is also no excuse.
Sansa is a nothing character and isnt half the women Daenery is.
This was the chapter that made Arya my favorite.
I have an alternative, more positive read of Sansa's character in this chapter.
1. I don't think Sansa is disgusted by the smallfolk. To me Sansa is disappointed that Arya wants to do Arya things (learning about the lives of smallfolk, exploring, having awesome adventures with her friends) instead of Sansa things (talking with highborns, doing needlework, playing the high harp and having lady's teatime while wearing pretty dresses). The same way Arya is disappointed that Sansa wants to do Sansa things instead of Arya things.
The paragraph ends with "[Micah] slept in the meat wagon and smelled of the slaughtering block. Just the sight of him was enough to make Sansa sick, but Arya seemed to prefer his company to hers."
I see it as Sansa being jealous of Arya's friends.
Also maybe it could be interpreted as Sansa going 'ew, peasants' when seeing the butcher's boy, but I am in my 20s and I try to listen to music when cutting up meat for cooking because sometimes I feel a bit queasy when I think about the meat being a dead animal, so it could also be interpreted as 'ew, he reminds me of dead animals'.
The Arya Sansa opposites thing I see here is Arya not minding death (her path in the later series) and Sansa not liking death (her 'lady Lysa was so wise to keep us out of the war' approach).
2. I haven't reread the books lately but I can't recall Sansa talking to smallfolk much. Sure during the battle of the blackwater she ordered Lance to be taken to a healer. But people were freaking out and I don't think it would have been better if she said 'please help Lancel' instead of whatever she actually said. Only other I vaguely remember is the creepy singer. But the only people I remember Sansa ordering around are Arya and people working in positions where it's expected of them to do the things Sansa orders.
Arya asks Micah because he isn't supposed to be doing it and they are friends. Even the fighting teacher Ned hired was disguised as a dancing instructor.
3. About the Micah incident. The way I read it Sansa was trying to save her little sister.
First she tried to stop Arya from escalating the situation, failed. Can't say for certain because Joffrey is drunk but I think he would not have killed Mycah if Arya hadn't jumped in.
Then she tried to get them to stop fighting by yelling at them, failed again.
"Sansa didn't know what to do. She watched helplessly, almost blind from her tears."
Then when her little sister gets the upper hand she tries to stop the fighting again, although it was pretty much already over.
Yeah, Sansa is completely useless in the fight but she did try. It's not like things would have gone great for them if Sansa and Arya both tried to beat up the crown prince in the woods. I have seen a lot of people comment how Sansa started the war, but I think the war might have started right here if both Stark girls tried to fight Joffrey.
4. Sansa didn't say 'leave her alone' because Sansa is drunk and frozen in shock, we see her think that Joffrey is mad with alcohol, Sansa doesn't have any authority over Joffrey and Sansa probably doesn't find Arya as intimidating.
5. Sansa is in no way capable of finding Arya in the woods. We are shown earlier that Sansa doesn't like traveling or exploring or getting dirty. She seems the type to get lost in the woods and then get eaten by a bear, even when she's sober. Going to find her sister in the woods while she's drunk seems likely to get her and therefore possibly Joffrey and everyone else in the resulting war dead.
6. She does what she is supposed to do. She tells a trusted adult what happened. Too bad Ned either can't or won't save Micah. I don't see why he couldn't convince Robert to give an order that Micah and Arya are to be unharmed. But maybe this is one of those 'second son' things that make Ned selfconcious.
7. Also for the people who haven't noticed SHE WAS DRUNK, possibly for the first time in her life. Sadly when telling Ned, she probably left out the part before the Micah incident where she was drinking and that's why Ned thought Sansa lied. I think she got blackout drunk and was telling the truth the next chapter.
Edit: grammar and wording.
I like your reply and you reason out your arguments. Unfortunately, this looks to be an unpopular stance. It seems that some characters get a pass and some do not. Like you you said Arya might very well have escalated the situation, but she is cool and so she gets a pass; while Sansa is not cool so every thing she does is stupid and wrong.
@@andrewniehoff8612 to me the difference between Arya and Sansa is that Arya accepts that they have different personalities and want to do different things. Arya doesn't want to force Sansa to things her way but the understanding doesn't go the other way, Sansa wants to force Arya to do Sansa things which obviously annoys a free spirited person like Arya. We learn from the first Arya chapter that she would actually sometimes like to do ladylike things if she wasn't so bad at them and constantly judged, but Sansa on the other hand looks down at Arya for doing tomboyish activities.
@@otto_jk In this chapter I think it's just that Septa Mordane told Sansa to call Arya so they could go traveling in the wheelhouse. So Sansa was trying her best to get Arya to behave, by attempting to throw around her big sister authority.
I don't remember any specific instances where Sansa has been very judgy, but overall I remember thinking she was either jealous of Arya's freedom or didn't understand why Arya would act like she does. Kind of like a very punctual person might not understand why someone would be constantly late.
Sansa overall is described as a 'proper lady' (westerosi ideal) by nature so she doesn't quite understand Arya's non-ladylike behavior, imo.
@@andrewniehoff8612 Yes thank you, you and the original comment from this thread are the only ones with some sense here. I was rather shocked to see such a hateful comment section towards Sansa. I wonder if anyone in this comment section even understands what’s character development? Lol
Just this comment section alone is making me unable to watch this video
The funny part is Sansa could have been even worse if the original draft actually happened. That's a strange thing to say.
But yeah so many things she does or doesn't care about really show how cat like she was like her "friend" being give to little finger and not asking or sweet robin being poisoned.
It seems to me that a queen who trusts no one is as foolish as a queen who trusts everyone.
Just gotta say, I’m a huge fan
The real queen of the 7 kingdoms
Sansa is too infuriating for words. So rather than comment on her specificly, I'll note something Sansa-adjacent. I think it's interesting that the sight of Ser Illyn fills Sansa with "a terror as overwhelming as anything she'd ever felt" and the Hound appears behind her and "grasps her shoulders with strong hands". This is intriguing because further on during her wedding to Tyrion, Sansa reflects how "she had dreamt of her wedding a thousand times, and always pictured how her betrothed would stand behind her tall and strong, sweep the cloak of his protection over her shoulders...". So the first time Sansa meets The Hound, he essentially does exactly what Sansa has always dreamt her husband would do. That's damned good- albeit regrettable- foreshadowing. It pains me to admit there's a strong chance my favorite character will end up with the likes of Sansa😒.
You think she'll live that long? I actually think she has a crush on him or something, some kind of projection, because he was for a time the only one that she was able to feel somewhat safe with.
@@hypatiakovalevskayasklodow9195 I don't know if she'll survive the entire story; Lady dying in Nymeria's place has me curious if Sansa might die in Arya's place. But I do think Sansa and The Hound have feelings for each other, though I don't think Sansa realizes she does.
But it's a wonderful Beauty and the Beast undercurrent. It's a big reason why I adore the San San ship.
@@rhaenyralikesyoutube6289 In ASOIAF terms, they're Florian and Jonquil- Sansa's favorite fairytale😁. But I take your meaning.
Of course it is entirely possible that the series will never be finished so we will never know how it ends for any of them.
Sansa is so horrible this is pure gold Joffrey tries to kill her little sister but it's no big deal
This is why I hate Sansa not because she’s a lady and don’t fight. Her lack of loyalty to her caring family is disgusting. Most of the characters are in a toxic family and are still loyal to them. (Ex. Jaime, Daenerys, Theon,etc)
Me too. Her earlier brattiness can be forgiven due to being a spoiled sheltered brat, but as the books go on she should have matured. She doesn't, and spoiler alert: the preview of book 6 where she's pretending to be Alayne Stone, she is still a spoiled snob, except she's become even more like her mother.
Same here. It’s not about her fighting ability, in fact my favorite characters are not warriors - she has two insufferable traits at the same time: she’s naive(ignorant) AND judgmental.
She even admits to being naive in the series (S3) but she remained highly superficial and prejudicial toward other people. At that point she’d undergone enough suffering that one might assume she’d become a bit more humble or egalitarian, but no such luck.
@rhaenyralikesyoutube6289 Not to mention she's allowing Baelish to kill her cousin so she can be lady to a dude that clearly hates her and will just be her husband in nothing but name.
I wonder if Sansa's arc is gonna make her better or worse.
In my opinion it has already made her better. Allow me to explain.
While I like her and do not think she is as bad as many portray her, I will admit that she does not leave the first book looking very well. I think that some characters: such as Robert are shown in a good light at first and only later do we begin to see his flaws. Stannis, on the other hand, is shown at his worst right off the bat and his better qualities and improvements are shown later. I believe that Sansa fits into the Stannis category. In the beginning she was selfish, entitled and yes, very naïve. Well, book one took care of that, or at least a great deal of it.
Starting in Book Two she is much more empathetic, she save Sir Dontos and urges Joff to be a better brother. During the second part of the book she prays for people, takes charge when Cersi nops out and has Lancel's wounds treated. She also says that when she is queen she will make the people love her, which shows, if nothing else she does not enjoy cruelty... unlike some people I could mention. So, while she is far from perfect, I believe her character is already better than when she started.
Bear with me - I think this chapter should be called "A Coup on the Trident". It was no an honour guard meeting Robert there. The Master of Laws (and the only other Baratheon available), the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard and the King's Justice came there for quite a different purpose. By that time, Renly has figured out who Cersei's children were, decided to act. He did not have the irrefutable proof, so he choose not to inform Selme prior to talking with the King, who was the only one capable of ordering action from the Lord Commander of his Kingsguard, and, the Kingsguard with Robert were all Lannister loyalists, plus the Hound, so someone had been needed to contain them. Cersei was very lucky to had met them before Robert, and reminded Paine were his loyalties were. It is the only time she expressed any interest in participating in the affairs of Robert's Small Council. I imagine she confronted Robert before Renly had a chance to talk with him, and either brought up Renly scandalous habits and discredited him, or threaten a huge scandal with implication of her father backing her up - I do not know what she did, but Robert changed drastically, I would go as far as to say that he changed into a broken man.
Before this chapter, he had publicly dismissed Cersei to get to see Lyanna's resting place, was active enough to wake Ned up for a early ride, had a very good grasp of upcoming troubles, and, despite the fact that Varis' note contained only the news of Danaerys' wedding, came to a pretty close picture of the power balance to what Eliro had feeding Vyseris.
After this chapter Robert withdrew from all semblance of ruling, except for his anti-Targaryan paranoia, stoked by Varis.
He did cry for help several times, he could no longer do officially. The first thing he commanded after returning to the capital is to officially instruct Ned to arrange a tourney - the previous tourney they were both present was called for a very specific purpose, and Ned hadn't been likely to have forgotten what had happened. Also, he very specifically told Ned that he had been fearful leaving the realm to Jeoffrey, and wanted nothing more than to become a "Sellsword King" - to get away from it all.
So, it looks to me, that Robert was too shocked to acknowledge the truth about his children, to lose face in front the Seven Kingdoms, and to get into an open conflict with Tywin Lannister (Ned was not sure he would during his Riverland decision), and he even mentioned "Lannister gold, when Cersei wanted the pelt of a direwolf.
I could be imaging thing, but that is how the chapter reads to me. Also, Cersei knew her son, and there was a good chance that he would provide a useful distraction being left alone with Sansa, which would neutralize Ned.
Arya giving Ned some kind of poison ivy flower is hilarious
Sansa is even worst then Catelyn. Catelyn protects her family at least. Sansa only cares about herself.
Payne must've been sent for a big big reason..
LF must've needed something done in the city. Or. He's Peters croney and LF just needed eyes on them.
Idk. It is weird.. There has to be a reason..
Lizard Lions may be related to crocs and gators, but given where they evolved, they must be something else. I've asked how they survive the winter, and I have a theory. My theory is that they die out in the winter, but first they bury their 🥚s near underground hot springs, where they can keep warm while lying dormant. The 🥚s then hatch in the Spring.
Yooooo
Love the chapter breakdowns
I know this is Sansa 1. But Arya steals the limelight...lol
I love how Aria is like here daddy I found some flowers for you to Ned. So cute I just can't 🥰
I think both Joff and Arya were in the wrong here. Yes, he cut the boy's face, but Arya walloped him hard with that stick. Imagine if it concussed him, or if it had been a sword. She would have scalped him. She overreacted, in my opinion. Yet, Sansa was given a glimpse of who Joffrey really is, and ignored it.
I do not think she completely ignored it. I see part of this chapter differently from our hosts. They said she told Arya to stay out of it because she did not care about the boy, but just a moment ago they read that she was afraid. I think she caught a glimpse of what Joff was and that she was trying to prevent her sister from provoking it. I could be wrong.
Cat jr!