Just a thought about Stannis wielding 'Lightbringer': Richard the Lionheart named every sword he wielded 'Excalibur'. He knew none of these weapons were King Arthur's, it was more about what the sword meant that gave it power.
I think that has a lot of storytelling power especially on ASOIAF where names and birthright are major themes, hence the whole Stannis vs his own “nephew” who actually doesn’t SHARE HIS NAME (or shouldn’t share his name is a better phrase)
This. In her mind, it is Lightbringer because she gives it the enchantment and the name to make it so. It's her trying to make prophecy come to pass in the manner that she believes it should either out of desperation, arrogance, or both.
My theory has always been that Stannis will sacrifice Shireen in an attempt to turn his sword into the real lightbringer (as she's the only person he actually loves). I think Mel gave him the fake sword to bide time until she could convince him to do what needs to be done (in her opinion). I also think being a shadowbinder has given her an elevated opinion of her importance, so she feels her choice of Stannis HAS to be right and that's why she's being so stubborn.
Maybe he'll sacrifice Davos. Maybe Davos will willingly sacrifice himself. It'll be kind of the gender subversion and Davos seems like someone Stannis loves, and Davos seems thematically related to the story of Lightbringer, too.
Stannis believes in older laws, it is why he chose his duty to Robert over Aerys. He would never sacrifice his daughter ( f*ck Dumb and Dumber) for public support or a magical sword, otherwise what is he fighting for? He can't say duty or honor or his family or even for what's right, plus no one would follow a kinslayer.
I swear I love how obsessed you guys are. I"m legit becoming a fanatic. The way you talk about asoiaf gets me so fucking hyped. I haven't reread the books in years but I still come to watch your videos cause it blows my mind how you guys change my perspective on things and I love it.
I think that she once did believe that Stannis was Azor Ahai, but she eventually decided that he was not Azor Ahai, but rather that he was going to lead her to Azor Ahai. It always struck me odd that in her chapter she said something to the effect "I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai and Rhillor only shows me Snow." Why would she be looking for Azor Ahai if she followed his ass to the Wall? So, I think by her chapter she realizes that Stannis isn't it. I guess I view Melisandre as someone who had a powerful vision of Stannis and interpreted it as him being Azor Ahai. Then, the Battle of Blackwater probably shook her faith in that. In the aftermath of that sometime she went from Stannis = Azor Ahai to Stannis will lead her to Azor Ahai. And, now, Rhillor might be showing her that Jon Snow is Azor Ahai (or will lead her to Azor Ahai), but she's dismissing it at the moment. But, I could be completely wrong!
She was looking for a glimpse of Stannis and was frustrated by the fact that she only sees snow though. I’m going to go look at it to make sure that’s what happened there but that’s how I remember it
@@JohnTCampbell1986 I think the capitalized Snow is meant as a hint to the reader. If she actually saw Jon, I would assume she’d say Lord Snow or Jon Snow instead of just Snow.
I see that as her speeding it up. She believes he will make a sword with a great sacrifice. But in order to have more people follow Stannis, they need to make a show.
Is it possible that, because of magic being reborn, that Mel's zealotry is so deep that she is glamoring the sword without knowing it? As though her subconscious is working the magic and her foremind is able to ignore it?
As per @Ussurin and @Lane Stapp, the logical conclusion of a) Melissandre understands politics and b) Melissandre believes that Stannis is Azor Ahai Reborn is that she knows the sword is not the real deal, but she needs to declare it 'Lightbringer' and created a spectacle to convince people to follow Stannis. In the legend, Azor Ahai forged the sword and tempered it in the heart of his wife, and her spirit went into the blade to light it up; Melissandre's aim might be to get Stannis to a place where he would sacrifice his wife, and Selyse would be prepared to sacrifice herself.
Love this video as always. Your take on Stannis honestly made me like him more. I’m always so distracted by disliking the fanaticism that I’ve never really looked at Stannis for the man he is underneath.
I think probably it’s twofold. First, she knows as much as we do about lightbringer. For all she knows it was a fake. She is creating the trappings of power. Second, she needed a catalyst and figured she’d find Lightbringer along the way. Ie, fake it till you make it.
"The most harm of all is done when power is in the hands of people who are absolutely persuaded of the purity of their instincts-- and the purity of their intentions. " There are no limits to the atrocities we might commit, if we are truly convinced it is for the greater good. Stannis and the Red woman is a good example there, at least in the show version.
I thoroughly enjoyed this. Well done guys. Small wonder GRRM says Melisandre is the most misunderstood character in the story. With inconsistencies like this how can he blame us? Apart from trying to figure out who or what she is, something that puzzles me about Mel is why she never reaches out to Thoros or contacts her order in Essos about Stannis. If she's as firm in her beliefs about Stannis as she claims to be, you'd think she'd do those things. That she doesn't is just...strange. PS- In the name of what we all think she'll do to Shireen, it's my sincerest hope that Melisandre will be outsmarted and killed by her next intended victim in Hansel and Gretel fashion. Don't know how realistic that is but my fingers are crossed nonetheless.
Okay.... been watching a bunch of your videos... and I love your thought process. You reveal some perspectives I completely missed. I love the way you solved Qaithe's riddle.... with the sun rising in the west, etc. Amazing.... and I can't believe I missed all of that. Hopefully, I can share one mystery of the world that few people even know about. You said ALL light makes heat... and that simply isn't true. We've known for a long time that moonlight has the opposite effect.... strangely.... mysteriously.... If you stand in sunlight you are warmer than when you stand in it's shadow. Moonlight is different and I have yet to find anyone who has puzzled it out. When you stand in moonlight you are cooler than when you stand in it's shade. So the moon absorbs all the heat and as it reflects the light it somehow transforms the light into something that cools rather than warms. It is known.... but not widely known. I don't know if this will help you as you puzzle things out.... but I thought you might find it useful. I, for one, would LOVE for our brightest minds to figure out how and why this happens... but nobody seems to be working on getting the answer to this mystery.
Hey Dave and Mary Ellen, thanks for sharing! I've been a fan of your channel for quite some time and have thoroughly enjoyed your videos. I think I've seen pretty much all your videos by now with the exception of your earlier Live Q&As, since I only discovered your channel around 3, 4 years ago. I think you've done by far the best analysis of the books.
Melisandre, in this situation, reminds me of police officers who "massage" the evidence without feeling like they've done something wrong. They don't feel like they're FRAMING anyone. They just feel like they already know what happened. They "know" who committed the crime, and they are helping shape the evidence to fit that theory.
This is called confirmation bias. I see it people’s politics all the time. Even when you throw facts in their face to refute their arguments, they look for their “own facts” to counter. It’s embarrassing really.
I watched the show and loved it until the end .. About a year ago I started listing to the David reads a song of ice and fire channel and now I’ve herd all the books and man they put the show to shame !! I can’t stop thinking about that world and your videos are great! 😊
I have very mixed feelings on Melisandre, on the one hand she is helping stannis baratheon, who is the only king who has gone north to deal with the others. On the other hand, if she hadn't given birth to that shadow baby Renly would have defeated the Lannisters and he would have most of the realm.
@@dustinsmith2021 renly had 16 k men on stormsend , 80 k troops in the reach under the command of Randly tarly and the redwayne fleet ( 200 warships) .
@@marcostargaryen4181 but renly was attacking at dawn with only his horse and he was riding into the sun. We’ll never know for sure but stannis had to have a plan.
In the infamous parlay, Renly offered Stannis a peach. Peaches can represent salvation. So I interpreted the scenario as some how, some way, Renly would've come to Stannis's aid against the Lannisters. But as we know Melisandre interfered so it never happened. In fact that subterfuge caused the exact opposite thing to happen. It's actually sad.
Its only a hypothetical, but if Renly had won, wouldn't it be likely he would make peace with the North, and that way he, or Rob, could have sent forces to the wall?
This is either fanaticism taken to the extreme / self-suggestion, or someone has manipulated her mind to the point she doesn't even know what she's doing anymore. Unless this is an error from Martin's part, which I find hard to believe.
So, and I could be wrong, I think Melisandre has convinced herself of Stannis's legitimacy even when the evidence shows he isn't it. She isn't above tricks to make others believe her position about Stannis as she has a whole trunk dedicated to convincing people of her powers and purpose. I think Melisandre like every other character in this serious who is solving a mystery is so sure they are right in their conclusions they never consider they are wrong. Ned thinks the Lanisters solely responsible for Jon Arryn's death but the readers discover Lysa and Pyter are more responsible - it's a mistake that has a lot of fall out. Catelyn makes the same jump to conclusion and tons of people die because she takes Tyrion prisoner. Same with the Tansy comment Catelyn thinks is her sister's nickname but is a main ingredient in the moon tea which forced Lysa to loose her first child. The sword is a prop, Melisandre believes that the person not the weapon is important and she is so focused on her conclusion that she cannot and will not see anyone else as being important or the thing she is searching for.
A glamor is like an illusion. Like in Dunk and Egg the Mystery Knight, when Dunk is looking at, out the corner of his eye, Maynard Plum (glamoured Bloodraven) his face shifts and Dunk can’t really tell the details but can’t see through it either. So the sword is illusion. Sure the color shifts on the sword but produces no heat. It’s a color show.
Once people have invested in something so deeply, they have a hard time seeing the truth. We see this happening in the real world right now. Denial is a helluva drug!
To me, it seems like Melisandre actually wants Stannis to be AA, and even if she is proved wrong she will still side with him and that might be her mistake in TWOW. We don't rly know why she decided Stannis was AA in the first time, but she is not an idiot, i don't think just seeing Dragonstone in a vision would be like, ok that mean AA is 100% Stannis, i think she must have seen something else or she chosed him for another reason. The things: -We know Lightbringer is glamoured, so she did that on purpose to make Stannis match the prophecy. -When she is looking for Stannis as AA in the fire, and she sees Snow (i clearly think that mean she sees Jon Snow) she does not think at all that she could be wrong, it does not puzzle her either, she is just annoyed that she can't find Stannis. -All the POVs characters thinks she is evil and using Stannis (and probably a lot of the readers thought or think that too); but Martin said Melisandre is one of his most misunderstood character, and when we read her POV chapter we know that she truly believe in Stannis and thinks she is doing what is right to save the world from the darkness, i think Martin want to show us that she is defo on the good side; but he also said that she had her own agenda (which could explain why she does not seem to have contact with the red temple or other priests) but that own agenda of her, like i said before, seems to be on the good side which make it even more mysterious. -The relation between Stannis and Melisandre seems to go beyond duty, there are a lot of hints suggesting that, mostly the bed phrase in her POV chapter but not only; also in her POV chapter, she refers to stannis one time as "her champion", not the lords/r'hllor chosen/champion, it seems interesting to me, it might just be a nice wording or it actually means something more, that stannis and not someone else is part of her personal agenda. So i think she wants him to be AA, why ?, i don't know, that's the question, maybe it's linked to her past, we know it's quite dark and it will probably get expanded in TWOW. I also have a theory that actually AA is not a pre-defined person, but that there are in fact multiple candidates who could accomplish the prophecy and become AA by doing it and Melisandre has chosen Stannis; but again same question, why him ?
She wanted to believe that it's Stannis, but she her self said she's having trouble knowing the truth behind her visions. And that she makes mistake. She wants to believe it's Stannis so much that she blind to the fact that Stannis was just the ship to bring her to the actual azor ahai
Maybe she believes Stannis, who is not Azor Ahai, will become Azor Ahai and the sword, now only glamoured for practical reasons, will become Light Bringer truly once he kills Shireen with it (possibly while she burns at the stake... fire and blood).
In one of the books all of Melisandres powders in her gown are described. She knows that tricking and fooling people is an important skill. She could be using the fake Lightbringer merely as a symbol representing Lightbringer not insisting it is the same original sword from legend.
I wonder if she created this lightbringer as a place holder? We know Mel is way older than she looks, and been around. Maybe this lightbringer is just another trapping of power to help gather men to Stannis and she thinks she will find or make the real lightbringer and switch it out?
How is Mel living with fucking up the sword.... Sunk Cost Fallacy? She sees the sword is broken, all eyes on her. Stannis most likely banning or killing her if this is not working. So she glamours it and burries that memory very deep. Is there any glimpse of memory blockade in her POV chapter? Like the glimpse of a thought appearing and immediatly burrying it? That's usually how Sunk Cost Fallacy works until the breaking point.
In my opinion, Mel is like a student the night before a big project is due. Fuck, the others are coming, she's scrambling around to find the Prince that was promised, finds a dude who 90% fits tbe bill, and is trying to rough out the edges so that it's good enough.
With the mob mentality I see that its mostly people who want to belong to a bigger group feeling isolated as a huge cause of it. Mel honesty did do that with stannis's family building up as time went on regardless of being right or night. For wanting it to be stannis it could be how far Mel wants to go and seeing how great he is in all forms of war and political situations it could have warped her to believe the lie she made to be the truth.
I think she just thinks westeros needs to build up an army to combat the long night, and Stannis is her best shot at doing that as the most obvious candidate for the throne who after taking it can then consolidate his power and get all seven kingdoms behind him. She has doubts about him being AA but doesn't necessarily need him to be as long as she can convince others he is, at least until the real AA comes along if he isn't.
Melisandre is fodder for the ongoing discussion of whether the ends justify the means. Someday we'll figure out that the means must be justified all by themselves.
What do you think about Stannis not being Azor Ahai Yet? fitting into his greater arc as the King who has to earn his Kingdom despite his birthright? With the swords not being right because he has yet to reach that position yet? The sword needed forged three times in the story of its creation ?
I think that Mel believes that the ends justify the means... She has to know the sword is a fake, but also knows that it is a part of lore and becomes important to many... From Great Lords to Smallfolk... She’s a fanatic, so bending the truth, to push Stannis as AH is a price she is willing to pay. If Stannis is the one to unite the North and the rest of the Kingdom to fight against the Others... It doesn’t matter if the sword is real or not, only that most people look at it as holding significants.. Even if Stannis dies, as long as she was able to complete her goals bf that time... Then things are good. Stannis could die in the first encounter with the Others... But as long as all the kingdoms have come together and are fighting for the Light, it doesn’t matter. She then can make Stannis a martyr... Someone willing to die for. Could be wrong... But I think she knows that time is becoming limited and she had to pull the trigger on who she thought was AH. Stannis fits some, not all... But he will do for now, bc he has too... She believes it, because she has too. She can rewrite what she sees in the flames afterward, for now... She has to get things moving.
Pausing at 3:50 I wonder if her "own agenda," the disconnect between her and the red temple in the search for AA, and her thinking of Stannis as the real deal despite evidence to the contrary comes down to Mel having decided to MAKE an AA, rather than wait for one. She believes he is because she believes that much in her own power. Whether that is mystical power or the power to manipulate perceptions is a secondary question.
Maybe she thinks that lightbringer are the dragons (but stannis needs to sacrifice king"s blood to use it) and the lightbringer is just to fool the followers just like her glamours until he gets the real thing
I wonder if Mellisandre see's herself as someone who can handle the truth and that for her, the sword lighting up (or at least at this point) is not necessary, but the people need the myth to act right towards Stanis. Stanis could be Azor Ahai and the sword be fake. Or, the ordinary (for now) sword could come to be true at a moment of truth to come.
I think, that there are many ways to understand prophecies. Sometimes, you are MAKING them, come true. Also, for example, as jewish guy, I know there is a specific prey to say when you see a geniouse man. It translated something like "Blessed God For Gifting his wisdom to flash and blood" so even your skills and abilities could be considered a miracle
Mary Ellen you said in our world there was no long night. But i think i remember hearing theories about a time of prolonged darkness. It might have been in Zechariah Sitchins Earth Chronichles
Maybe the original Lightbringer was a dragon. Xaros Xhoan Daxos tells Dany that, as her dragons grow, they become "a flaming sword above the world," and in the Book of Revelations, Lucifer (which means... something) takes the form of a red dragon. And the larva-things that infested Aerea were white in color. So if dragons are flaming swords, then Azor Ahai putting one of the larva into Nissa Nissa and having it grow into a fire-breathing red dragon is symbolically the same as stabbing her with a white-hot sword and tempering it into a fiery red sword. Has Mel heard about Dany yet? If not, she might defect once she does; if so, then she clearly doesn't believe my theory.
News of Dany probably haven't gotten to the wall yet, and with the old maester outside the picture, who would actually bring them news? They were pretty much isolated on Dragonstone before going to the wall. Really really good point, she most likely doesn't know about Dany
@@hypatiakovalevskayasklodow9195 Looking back, you are probably right, as Aemon and Sam learn about Dany from Quhuru Mo in Braavos, after they leave the Wall. If Mel has heard about Dany, it seems like Tycho Nestoris would need to be the one to tell her, and why would he? It would only encourage her to defect from Stannis, who is the Iron Bank's preferred claimant to the Iron Throne
Mel doesn’t believe Stannis is Azor Ahai because he has a fake lightbringer. She believes he is Azor Ahai that has not yet found lightbringer. She believes the sword will bring people to him, so she made a fake one as a placeholder until he finds, or forges the real one.
@@TheOrderoftheGreenhand she believes he is the one, but not because he has the sword. She believes he has not yet come into his sword, so she made him a glamour so others will believe as she does and follow him. She knows the sword is fake, but she believes the man is real.
Because she’s also trying to get him to believe. You said yourself, he views her as a tool in his bag. A means to an end. If she can make him believe, the real sword will come in time. If she can make others believe, then his following will increase, and preparation for the long night will be faster and easier. By the way, since we are having a bit of a conversation, I must say that your videos and theories have been critical to my ASOIAF obsession. You guys are amazing. Your channel is where I learned what R+L=J means, and also, where I became a N+A=J believer. I love your logic, and bottom line is, while I can’t completely discount R+L=J, I think the story has more potential if N+A=J. It makes more sense to me, and I think it makes more sense for Jon’s arc. I was first introduced to ASOIAF via the show. I’ve now read the books 3 times and watched many hours of UA-cam content from many channels. To @The Order of the Green Hand, I say, well done!
I think the point you're catching on is a non-issue because she never specifically says that she's looking for Stannis she says she's looking for azora high and all she sees is snow, that could be because she knows Stannis isn't really his or a high and this is our first POV from her, she could be constantly wondering and trying to figure out who the real azora high for all we know.
I feel like she felt she would fine azorahia at dragon stone so when she seen stannis she felt that it was him and he needs to realize his potential so shes pushing her agenda
I think Mel is just faking it till making it with the sword. She probably thinks that the sword 🗡 will come in it’s own time, but until then she wants to add to the army of light.
In my opinion. Melisandre is misreading the flames about Stannis because there's no other prominent candidate to be the prince that was promised, as of yet. Or, she glamoured the sword and trying to convince people to follow Stannis to help The Others.
She know it's a glamour, that's true. She just believes Stanis has to make the ultimate sacrifice to forge the perfect weapon (lightbringer), that's why she keep nagging him about his fires burning low. She thinks once he's done the sacrifice he will truly be Azhor. Right now she just believes he's got what it takes to make the ultimate sacrifice. That's just me thinking.
I really appreciate your example from history.. Ost people could learn to recite from a history book, but still fail to prevent it from repeating itself because they refuse to accept that even most of the worst people started out as normal people like you and me and just went down a bad path... When you look at how it started, there's enough evidence that AH was replaceable and that it could have started in a different country just as easily. People were just looking at bad times incoming and feared communism and looked for a lesser evil...
Funnily enough I’m a pretty good writer. Like I wrote a short story in 7th grade and my teacher wanted it published. All these story ideas but I hate the process. I’m also good at math. Got actual awards for being so good at math. Do NOT like math lol.
I'm a bit late for the party but here is the thing. First let's take the sword issue. Lets say she totally believes that she found azor ahai. (Hope I spelled that correctly) why would she need the sword? She'd trust that he is the one and The sword is just something that he'll need in the future. So until he makes the great sacrifice required to get the sword she'll use a prop to fool the masses. Same logic she uses when she keeps the guards. It's for show and she thinks it's necessary. Doesn't really need to be the real deal if it helps sway the opinion of the masses. Now about the fanatic part. Well, talking from experience from knowing real ass fanatics. Your problem is that you think this logically. It's not logical at all. So here she is following azor ahai. Giving him a fake sword and shit, it's useless but here is the thing. The prophecy is clear (I know it isn't but stay with me) it clearly says that he'll be the saviour or whatever. So why would she need to worry? She'll see him ripped to pieces and think that he'll rise again. That this is all part of his journey by the will of the lord of light. So the logic would be this. It's too bad he doesn't have the sword yet but it's beyond doubt that he'll have it eventually, let's make a show for the people who are poor and week and don't see the light to bring them to the mercy and justice of our lord under the rule of his chosen one while we wait. And when he gets the real deal people would belief beyond a doubt then. And whatever danger is there facing Stannis. It's pointless since the will of the lord of light will come through regardless. If you know someone is gonna die in 5 years for sure. By time travel let's say then will you worry about them if you see them facing certain death? And that's what a fanatic is like. They know. They know beyond reason or doubt. Even if worse comes to worst. What they know will come to be. Even if nothing I'm the world could make it so because in their mind, it already is.
Even though it’s not light bringer it would still be cool to see him kill some Bolton men in the dark snow with the light dancing in winds of winter.. Anyway thanks
Guys, Melisandre is much more practical and rational that you think. Yes, she BELIEVES in her cause. She ALSO knows that “power resides where men believe it resides”. And I think she just thinks that her and others’ around belief powers even her fake swords to be The Prophecy Thing.
Look at her name. Ander or Andre is Dutch for Other. Mel is Other. She is very pale and very old like the Night Queen. If this sounds crazy, keep in mind that there are a lot of Dutch people around New Jersey where GRRM grew up,he probably had exposure to the language.
What if Melisandre is buying time because all has not been reverted to her yet but she is totally positive that her god will. She knows that she has to sell her beliefs at first before faith can set in ?
She has to know that sword was a fake because she herself glamoured it but perhaps she did it sorely as a propaganda tool to garner support and followers, still honestly believing that Stannis is truly azhor ahai and that eventually they would discover the true lightbringer somewhere, somehow.
I think she does believe Stannis is Lightbringer but also knows the sword is a fake. To get Lightbringer AA had to go through a lot of shit most definitely most of it is metaphors, quenching a sword in a lion's heart/blood wouldn't make a blade stronger. I think she gave Stannis the sword so he would get followers and so he can start his journey but she knows he has to go through tremendous pain in order to fully become AA Reborn like seeing his wife die, so until he is fully realised in his prophetic journey Melisandre is practical and logical in using a charm to gather the masses. She knows the stuff isn't real but it doesn't have to be because in her eyes she only has to wait for destiny to strike.
As far as I know Lightbringer has been lost. She could believe Stanis is Azur Ahai anyway. She could be holding out that they would come across Lightbringer as it'd be ordained to happen 🤷🏼♂️
Just a thought about Stannis wielding 'Lightbringer': Richard the Lionheart named every sword he wielded 'Excalibur'. He knew none of these weapons were King Arthur's, it was more about what the sword meant that gave it power.
I think that has a lot of storytelling power especially on ASOIAF where names and birthright are major themes, hence the whole Stannis vs his own “nephew” who actually doesn’t SHARE HIS NAME (or shouldn’t share his name is a better phrase)
This. In her mind, it is Lightbringer because she gives it the enchantment and the name to make it so. It's her trying to make prophecy come to pass in the manner that she believes it should either out of desperation, arrogance, or both.
My theory has always been that Stannis will sacrifice Shireen in an attempt to turn his sword into the real lightbringer (as she's the only person he actually loves). I think Mel gave him the fake sword to bide time until she could convince him to do what needs to be done (in her opinion). I also think being a shadowbinder has given her an elevated opinion of her importance, so she feels her choice of Stannis HAS to be right and that's why she's being so stubborn.
Maybe he'll sacrifice Davos. Maybe Davos will willingly sacrifice himself. It'll be kind of the gender subversion and Davos seems like someone Stannis loves, and Davos seems thematically related to the story of Lightbringer, too.
Stannis believes in older laws, it is why he chose his duty to Robert over Aerys. He would never sacrifice his daughter ( f*ck Dumb and Dumber) for public support or a magical sword, otherwise what is he fighting for? He can't say duty or honor or his family or even for what's right, plus no one would follow a kinslayer.
I swear I love how obsessed you guys are. I"m legit becoming a fanatic. The way you talk about asoiaf gets me so fucking hyped.
I haven't reread the books in years but I still come to watch your videos cause it blows my mind how you guys change my perspective on things and I love it.
thank you !!!
@@TheOrderoftheGreenhand I'm a huge fan! I love you guys! Pls don't stop with this amazing content!
George just needs to finish them so we can finish this speculation
I think that she once did believe that Stannis was Azor Ahai, but she eventually decided that he was not Azor Ahai, but rather that he was going to lead her to Azor Ahai. It always struck me odd that in her chapter she said something to the effect "I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai and Rhillor only shows me Snow." Why would she be looking for Azor Ahai if she followed his ass to the Wall? So, I think by her chapter she realizes that Stannis isn't it.
I guess I view Melisandre as someone who had a powerful vision of Stannis and interpreted it as him being Azor Ahai. Then, the Battle of Blackwater probably shook her faith in that. In the aftermath of that sometime she went from Stannis = Azor Ahai to Stannis will lead her to Azor Ahai. And, now, Rhillor might be showing her that Jon Snow is Azor Ahai (or will lead her to Azor Ahai), but she's dismissing it at the moment.
But, I could be completely wrong!
I think you made really great points and I tend to agree with you there!
She was looking for a glimpse of Stannis and was frustrated by the fact that she only sees snow though. I’m going to go look at it to make sure that’s what happened there but that’s how I remember it
@@TheOrderoftheGreenhand Snow is capitalised (if my memory serves), so it's likely she sees Jon rather than actual snow?
@@JohnTCampbell1986 I think the capitalized Snow is meant as a hint to the reader. If she actually saw Jon, I would assume she’d say Lord Snow or Jon Snow instead of just Snow.
She may believe Stannis is AA, but not that sword is required. She just made one to convince common folk of what she believes.
Exactly.
I see that as her speeding it up. She believes he will make a sword with a great sacrifice. But in order to have more people follow Stannis, they need to make a show.
it make sense to me
Podcast. I like this. I dont like hiding in the comments of the Lives. Now I can give a thought.
Where's the difference?
Is it possible that, because of magic being reborn, that Mel's zealotry is so deep that she is glamoring the sword without knowing it?
As though her subconscious is working the magic and her foremind is able to ignore it?
Omg 😆 welcome back ! We missed theories, only Thursday’s nights isn’t enough!
Thank you so much !
What great treat ! 💚🤚🏻💚
As per @Ussurin and @Lane Stapp, the logical conclusion of a) Melissandre understands politics and b) Melissandre believes that Stannis is Azor Ahai Reborn is that she knows the sword is not the real deal, but she needs to declare it 'Lightbringer' and created a spectacle to convince people to follow Stannis.
In the legend, Azor Ahai forged the sword and tempered it in the heart of his wife, and her spirit went into the blade to light it up; Melissandre's aim might be to get Stannis to a place where he would sacrifice his wife, and Selyse would be prepared to sacrifice herself.
Love this video as always. Your take on Stannis honestly made me like him more. I’m always so distracted by disliking the fanaticism that I’ve never really looked at Stannis for the man he is underneath.
Could she playing for time with Light bringer? She says she needs kings blood to wake dragons from stone.
Love ur videos
Didn't expect this notification ! 💪
I think probably it’s twofold. First, she knows as much as we do about lightbringer. For all she knows it was a fake. She is creating the trappings of power. Second, she needed a catalyst and figured she’d find Lightbringer along the way. Ie, fake it till you make it.
"The most harm of all is done when power is in the hands of people who are absolutely persuaded of the purity of their instincts-- and the purity of their intentions. "
There are no limits to the atrocities we might commit, if we are truly convinced it is for the greater good. Stannis and the Red woman is a good example there, at least in the show version.
She always capitalizes Snow too when she talks about seeing AA.
I thoroughly enjoyed this. Well done guys. Small wonder GRRM says Melisandre is the most misunderstood character in the story. With inconsistencies like this how can he blame us? Apart from trying to figure out who or what she is, something that puzzles me about Mel is why she never reaches out to Thoros or contacts her order in Essos about Stannis. If she's as firm in her beliefs about Stannis as she claims to be, you'd think she'd do those things. That she doesn't is just...strange.
PS- In the name of what we all think she'll do to Shireen, it's my sincerest hope that Melisandre will be outsmarted and killed by her next intended victim in Hansel and Gretel fashion. Don't know how realistic that is but my fingers are crossed nonetheless.
Okay.... been watching a bunch of your videos... and I love your thought process. You reveal some perspectives I completely missed. I love the way you solved Qaithe's riddle.... with the sun rising in the west, etc. Amazing.... and I can't believe I missed all of that. Hopefully, I can share one mystery of the world that few people even know about. You said ALL light makes heat... and that simply isn't true. We've known for a long time that moonlight has the opposite effect.... strangely.... mysteriously.... If you stand in sunlight you are warmer than when you stand in it's shadow. Moonlight is different and I have yet to find anyone who has puzzled it out. When you stand in moonlight you are cooler than when you stand in it's shade. So the moon absorbs all the heat and as it reflects the light it somehow transforms the light into something that cools rather than warms. It is known.... but not widely known. I don't know if this will help you as you puzzle things out.... but I thought you might find it useful. I, for one, would LOVE for our brightest minds to figure out how and why this happens... but nobody seems to be working on getting the answer to this mystery.
"War is a continuation of politics" Von Clausewitz
Hey Dave and Mary Ellen, thanks for sharing! I've been a fan of your channel for quite some time and have thoroughly enjoyed your videos. I think I've seen pretty much all your videos by now with the exception of your earlier Live Q&As, since I only discovered your channel around 3, 4 years ago. I think you've done by far the best analysis of the books.
Melisandre, in this situation, reminds me of police officers who "massage" the evidence without feeling like they've done something wrong.
They don't feel like they're FRAMING anyone. They just feel like they already know what happened. They "know" who committed the crime, and they are helping shape the evidence to fit that theory.
This is called confirmation bias. I see it people’s politics all the time. Even when you throw facts in their face to refute their arguments, they look for their “own facts” to counter. It’s embarrassing really.
@@goatmc could your "facts" be a form of confirmation bias?
I watched the show and loved it until the end ..
About a year ago I started listing to the David reads a song of ice and fire channel and now I’ve herd all the books and man they put the show to shame !!
I can’t stop thinking about that world and your videos are great!
😊
I have very mixed feelings on Melisandre, on the one hand she is helping stannis baratheon, who is the only king who has gone north to deal with the others. On the other hand, if she hadn't given birth to that shadow baby Renly would have defeated the Lannisters and he would have most of the realm.
Stannis would have beat renly.
@@dustinsmith2021 renly had 16 k men on stormsend , 80 k troops in the reach under the command of Randly tarly and the redwayne fleet ( 200 warships) .
@@marcostargaryen4181 but renly was attacking at dawn with only his horse and he was riding into the sun. We’ll never know for sure but stannis had to have a plan.
In the infamous parlay, Renly offered Stannis a peach. Peaches can represent salvation. So I interpreted the scenario as some how, some way, Renly would've come to Stannis's aid against the Lannisters. But as we know Melisandre interfered so it never happened. In fact that subterfuge caused the exact opposite thing to happen. It's actually sad.
Its only a hypothetical, but if Renly had won, wouldn't it be likely he would make peace with the North, and that way he, or Rob, could have sent forces to the wall?
God you're my fav got channel i swear. I love yall
This is either fanaticism taken to the extreme / self-suggestion, or someone has manipulated her mind to the point she doesn't even know what she's doing anymore. Unless this is an error from Martin's part, which I find hard to believe.
So, and I could be wrong, I think Melisandre has convinced herself of Stannis's legitimacy even when the evidence shows he isn't it. She isn't above tricks to make others believe her position about Stannis as she has a whole trunk dedicated to convincing people of her powers and purpose. I think Melisandre like every other character in this serious who is solving a mystery is so sure they are right in their conclusions they never consider they are wrong. Ned thinks the Lanisters solely responsible for Jon Arryn's death but the readers discover Lysa and Pyter are more responsible - it's a mistake that has a lot of fall out. Catelyn makes the same jump to conclusion and tons of people die because she takes Tyrion prisoner. Same with the Tansy comment Catelyn thinks is her sister's nickname but is a main ingredient in the moon tea which forced Lysa to loose her first child. The sword is a prop, Melisandre believes that the person not the weapon is important and she is so focused on her conclusion that she cannot and will not see anyone else as being important or the thing she is searching for.
Mel “Fake it till you make it!”
Excellent conversation!
A glamor is like an illusion. Like in Dunk and Egg the Mystery Knight, when Dunk is looking at, out the corner of his eye, Maynard Plum (glamoured Bloodraven) his face shifts and Dunk can’t really tell the details but can’t see through it either. So the sword is illusion. Sure the color shifts on the sword but produces no heat. It’s a color show.
Once people have invested in something so deeply, they have a hard time seeing the truth. We see this happening in the real world right now. Denial is a helluva drug!
To me, it seems like Melisandre actually wants Stannis to be AA, and even if she is proved wrong she will still side with him and that might be her mistake in TWOW.
We don't rly know why she decided Stannis was AA in the first time, but she is not an idiot, i don't think just seeing Dragonstone in a vision would be like, ok that mean AA is 100% Stannis, i think she must have seen something else or she chosed him for another reason.
The things:
-We know Lightbringer is glamoured, so she did that on purpose to make Stannis match the prophecy.
-When she is looking for Stannis as AA in the fire, and she sees Snow (i clearly think that mean she sees Jon Snow) she does not think at all that she could be wrong, it does not puzzle her either, she is just annoyed that she can't find Stannis.
-All the POVs characters thinks she is evil and using Stannis (and probably a lot of the readers thought or think that too); but Martin said Melisandre is one of his most misunderstood character, and when we read her POV chapter we know that she truly believe in Stannis and thinks she is doing what is right to save the world from the darkness, i think Martin want to show us that she is defo on the good side; but he also said that she had her own agenda (which could explain why she does not seem to have contact with the red temple or other priests) but that own agenda of her, like i said before, seems to be on the good side which make it even more mysterious.
-The relation between Stannis and Melisandre seems to go beyond duty, there are a lot of hints suggesting that, mostly the bed phrase in her POV chapter but not only; also in her POV chapter, she refers to stannis one time as "her champion", not the lords/r'hllor chosen/champion, it seems interesting to me, it might just be a nice wording or it actually means something more, that stannis and not someone else is part of her personal agenda.
So i think she wants him to be AA, why ?, i don't know, that's the question, maybe it's linked to her past, we know it's quite dark and it will probably get expanded in TWOW.
I also have a theory that actually AA is not a pre-defined person, but that there are in fact multiple candidates who could accomplish the prophecy and become AA by doing it and Melisandre has chosen Stannis; but again same question, why him ?
Love the podcast format!!!!!!
She wanted to believe that it's Stannis, but she her self said she's having trouble knowing the truth behind her visions. And that she makes mistake.
She wants to believe it's Stannis so much that she blind to the fact that Stannis was just the ship to bring her to the actual azor ahai
Maybe she believes Stannis, who is not Azor Ahai, will become Azor Ahai and the sword, now only glamoured for practical reasons, will become Light Bringer truly once he kills Shireen with it (possibly while she burns at the stake... fire and blood).
I like this format a lot.
In one of the books all of Melisandres powders in her gown are described. She knows that tricking and fooling people is an important skill. She could be using the fake Lightbringer merely as a symbol representing Lightbringer not insisting it is the same original sword from legend.
Regarding mob mentalities: A person is smart. People are stupid.
I wonder if she created this lightbringer as a place holder? We know Mel is way older than she looks, and been around. Maybe this lightbringer is just another trapping of power to help gather men to Stannis and she thinks she will find or make the real lightbringer and switch it out?
Wow I ❤️ this channel! Lol
Wish I made the podcast..
Thank you two for all the hard work! You guys are great!!
How is Mel living with fucking up the sword.... Sunk Cost Fallacy? She sees the sword is broken, all eyes on her. Stannis most likely banning or killing her if this is not working. So she glamours it and burries that memory very deep. Is there any glimpse of memory blockade in her POV chapter? Like the glimpse of a thought appearing and immediatly burrying it? That's usually how Sunk Cost Fallacy works until the breaking point.
In my opinion, Mel is like a student the night before a big project is due. Fuck, the others are coming, she's scrambling around to find the Prince that was promised, finds a dude who 90% fits tbe bill, and is trying to rough out the edges so that it's good enough.
With the mob mentality I see that its mostly people who want to belong to a bigger group feeling isolated as a huge cause of it. Mel honesty did do that with stannis's family building up as time went on regardless of being right or night.
For wanting it to be stannis it could be how far Mel wants to go and seeing how great he is in all forms of war and political situations it could have warped her to believe the lie she made to be the truth.
I think she just thinks westeros needs to build up an army to combat the long night, and Stannis is her best shot at doing that as the most obvious candidate for the throne who after taking it can then consolidate his power and get all seven kingdoms behind him. She has doubts about him being AA but doesn't necessarily need him to be as long as she can convince others he is, at least until the real AA comes along if he isn't.
Or...Mel doesn't know where Lightbringer is, but she believes somehow, someway it is coming. In the meantime she glamours up this place holder.
I love this new format!
Can't get enough of your content!
Melisandre is fodder for the ongoing discussion of whether the ends justify the means. Someday we'll figure out that the means must be justified all by themselves.
What do you think about Stannis not being Azor Ahai Yet? fitting into his greater arc as the King who has to earn his Kingdom despite his birthright? With the swords not being right because he has yet to reach that position yet? The sword needed forged three times in the story of its creation ?
Even Varys told the court about Selyse hooking up with Mel in AGoT
I think that Mel believes that the ends justify the means...
She has to know the sword is a fake, but also knows that it is a part of lore and becomes important to many... From Great Lords to Smallfolk...
She’s a fanatic, so bending the truth, to push Stannis as AH is a price she is willing to pay.
If Stannis is the one to unite the North and the rest of the Kingdom to fight against the Others... It doesn’t matter if the sword is real or not, only that most people look at it as holding significants..
Even if Stannis dies, as long as she was able to complete her goals bf that time... Then things are good.
Stannis could die in the first encounter with the Others... But as long as all the kingdoms have come together and are fighting for the Light, it doesn’t matter.
She then can make Stannis a martyr... Someone willing to die for.
Could be wrong...
But I think she knows that time is becoming limited and she had to pull the trigger on who she thought was AH. Stannis fits some, not all... But he will do for now, bc he has too... She believes it, because she has too.
She can rewrite what she sees in the flames afterward, for now... She has to get things moving.
Whoa... UA-cam not notifying me about this is akin to breaking guest right... 😒
I love me some Red Priests, Lord of Light and Melisandre! Love this podcast guys. Great points.
Excellent💯💯💯 content 🔥🔥🔥
Pausing at 3:50 I wonder if her "own agenda," the disconnect between her and the red temple in the search for AA, and her thinking of Stannis as the real deal despite evidence to the contrary comes down to Mel having decided to MAKE an AA, rather than wait for one. She believes he is because she believes that much in her own power. Whether that is mystical power or the power to manipulate perceptions is a secondary question.
Politics is the entertainment division of the Military machine.
Maybe she thinks that lightbringer are the dragons (but stannis needs to sacrifice king"s blood to use it) and the lightbringer is just to fool the followers just like her glamours until he gets the real thing
Thanks guys
I wonder if Mellisandre see's herself as someone who can handle the truth and that for her, the sword lighting up (or at least at this point) is not necessary, but the people need the myth to act right towards Stanis. Stanis could be Azor Ahai and the sword be fake. Or, the ordinary (for now) sword could come to be true at a moment of truth to come.
I think, that there are many ways to understand prophecies.
Sometimes, you are MAKING them, come true.
Also, for example, as jewish guy, I know there is a specific prey to say when you see a geniouse man. It translated something like "Blessed God For Gifting his wisdom to flash and blood"
so even your skills and abilities could be considered a miracle
No long night in our world? Excuse me!? Polar Winter? Ice Age? Vulcano Ash-Winter?
I don’t recall seeing anything that indicated that we’ve ever had a few decade long period of darkness but I’ll freely admit that I could be wrong
Mary Ellen you said in our world there was no long night. But i think i remember hearing theories about a time of prolonged darkness. It might have been in Zechariah Sitchins Earth Chronichles
very cool !!
I think mel is using it as a symbol for who he is to force her vision to be true, and is in turn hopeing the peices can be forced inline
Maybe the original Lightbringer was a dragon. Xaros Xhoan Daxos tells Dany that, as her dragons grow, they become "a flaming sword above the world," and in the Book of Revelations, Lucifer (which means... something) takes the form of a red dragon. And the larva-things that infested Aerea were white in color. So if dragons are flaming swords, then Azor Ahai putting one of the larva into Nissa Nissa and having it grow into a fire-breathing red dragon is symbolically the same as stabbing her with a white-hot sword and tempering it into a fiery red sword.
Has Mel heard about Dany yet? If not, she might defect once she does; if so, then she clearly doesn't believe my theory.
News of Dany probably haven't gotten to the wall yet, and with the old maester outside the picture, who would actually bring them news? They were pretty much isolated on Dragonstone before going to the wall. Really really good point, she most likely doesn't know about Dany
@@hypatiakovalevskayasklodow9195 Looking back, you are probably right, as Aemon and Sam learn about Dany from Quhuru Mo in Braavos, after they leave the Wall. If Mel has heard about Dany, it seems like Tycho Nestoris would need to be the one to tell her, and why would he? It would only encourage her to defect from Stannis, who is the Iron Bank's preferred claimant to the Iron Throne
Mel doesn’t believe Stannis is Azor Ahai because he has a fake lightbringer. She believes he is Azor Ahai that has not yet found lightbringer. She believes the sword will bring people to him, so she made a fake one as a placeholder until he finds, or forges the real one.
I’d agree with you if we didn’t get inside her head and see that she truly believes Stannis is the one
@@TheOrderoftheGreenhand she believes he is the one, but not because he has the sword. She believes he has not yet come into his sword, so she made him a glamour so others will believe as she does and follow him. She knows the sword is fake, but she believes the man is real.
Why give him a glamoured sword and call it lightbringer and tell him it’s special?
Because she’s also trying to get him to believe. You said yourself, he views her as a tool in his bag. A means to an end. If she can make him believe, the real sword will come in time. If she can make others believe, then his following will increase, and preparation for the long night will be faster and easier.
By the way, since we are having a bit of a conversation, I must say that your videos and theories have been critical to my ASOIAF obsession. You guys are amazing. Your channel is where I learned what R+L=J means, and also, where I became a N+A=J believer. I love your logic, and bottom line is, while I can’t completely discount R+L=J, I think the story has more potential if N+A=J. It makes more sense to me, and I think it makes more sense for Jon’s arc. I was first introduced to ASOIAF via the show. I’ve now read the books 3 times and watched many hours of UA-cam content from many channels. To @The Order of the Green Hand, I say, well done!
I think the point you're catching on is a non-issue because she never specifically says that she's looking for Stannis she says she's looking for azora high and all she sees is snow, that could be because she knows Stannis isn't really his or a high and this is our first POV from her, she could be constantly wondering and trying to figure out who the real azora high for all we know.
I feel like she felt she would fine azorahia at dragon stone so when she seen stannis she felt that it was him and he needs to realize his potential so shes pushing her agenda
I love that pic of Mel.
me too!!
Its an LED glamour lol!!! (light w/o heat)
I love this, just long enough to listen to on my drive home. Weird not seeing your faces though.
I think Mel is just faking it till making it with the sword. She probably thinks that the sword 🗡 will come in it’s own time, but until then she wants to add to the army of light.
P.S. George is definitely telling us how bad zealots can’t be 27:45
Wayyyyy late to the party on this one, but Glass Candles produce light without heat
Oooo! This is going to be good 💜
In my opinion. Melisandre is misreading the flames about Stannis because there's no other prominent candidate to be the prince that was promised, as of yet. Or, she glamoured the sword and trying to convince people to follow Stannis to help The Others.
She know it's a glamour, that's true. She just believes Stanis has to make the ultimate sacrifice to forge the perfect weapon (lightbringer), that's why she keep nagging him about his fires burning low. She thinks once he's done the sacrifice he will truly be Azhor. Right now she just believes he's got what it takes to make the ultimate sacrifice.
That's just me thinking.
It’s a glass candle…She’s using Stannis’s sword to communicate with someone? Btw…love this format
Fraud believe and fanatism can actualy goes that far. You can search healing guru or no-touch martial art. Belief can go to an interesting way.
Mary you're good ❤🖤
The answer is simple; she’s faking it until he makes it. She believes he will find the real lightbringer but people need to see it now to follow him.
I really appreciate your example from history.. Ost people could learn to recite from a history book, but still fail to prevent it from repeating itself because they refuse to accept that even most of the worst people started out as normal people like you and me and just went down a bad path...
When you look at how it started, there's enough evidence that AH was replaceable and that it could have started in a different country just as easily. People were just looking at bad times incoming and feared communism and looked for a lesser evil...
Probably in the next books will get more answers about what's going on with the melisandra
It's an LED sword light no heat!!
Funnily enough I’m a pretty good writer. Like I wrote a short story in 7th grade and my teacher wanted it published. All these story ideas but I hate the process. I’m also good at math. Got actual awards for being so good at math. Do NOT like math lol.
I'm a bit late for the party but here is the thing. First let's take the sword issue. Lets say she totally believes that she found azor ahai. (Hope I spelled that correctly) why would she need the sword? She'd trust that he is the one and The sword is just something that he'll need in the future. So until he makes the great sacrifice required to get the sword she'll use a prop to fool the masses. Same logic she uses when she keeps the guards. It's for show and she thinks it's necessary. Doesn't really need to be the real deal if it helps sway the opinion of the masses.
Now about the fanatic part. Well, talking from experience from knowing real ass fanatics. Your problem is that you think this logically. It's not logical at all. So here she is following azor ahai. Giving him a fake sword and shit, it's useless but here is the thing. The prophecy is clear (I know it isn't but stay with me) it clearly says that he'll be the saviour or whatever. So why would she need to worry? She'll see him ripped to pieces and think that he'll rise again. That this is all part of his journey by the will of the lord of light.
So the logic would be this. It's too bad he doesn't have the sword yet but it's beyond doubt that he'll have it eventually, let's make a show for the people who are poor and week and don't see the light to bring them to the mercy and justice of our lord under the rule of his chosen one while we wait. And when he gets the real deal people would belief beyond a doubt then. And whatever danger is there facing Stannis. It's pointless since the will of the lord of light will come through regardless.
If you know someone is gonna die in 5 years for sure. By time travel let's say then will you worry about them if you see them facing certain death? And that's what a fanatic is like. They know. They know beyond reason or doubt. Even if worse comes to worst. What they know will come to be. Even if nothing I'm the world could make it so because in their mind, it already is.
Even though it’s not light bringer it would still be cool to see him kill some Bolton men in the dark snow with the light dancing in winds of winter..
Anyway thanks
As Melisandre herself said "a false hero can only lead us further into darkness."
Could she think Stannis will somehow get the real someone later and just made a fake for now to help sell her claims?
I think Melisandre is “Faking it ‘til she makes it .“ She sees enough in her fires 🔥 to believe she is on the right track.
What is she... a sorcerer from asshai or a priestess of rhlorr? What if she's just pretending to be from the red god?
Stanis paid attention to all the lessons Robert skipped. He is intelligent and conciencious and did all his homework plus his brother's! :)
Guys, Melisandre is much more practical and rational that you think. Yes, she BELIEVES in her cause. She ALSO knows that “power resides where men believe it resides”. And I think she just thinks that her and others’ around belief powers even her fake swords to be The Prophecy Thing.
So.....Mel thinks it up to her so she is forcing it
Could there be another red priest unknown to Mel that is leading her astray?
A reflected light doesn’t produce heat
Haahahahah!! “Sounds like you all suck at this [making sense of prophecy and signs in the flames]” .. DIED!! 😂
Look at her name. Ander or Andre is Dutch for Other. Mel is Other.
She is very pale and very old like the Night Queen. If this sounds crazy, keep in mind that there are a lot of Dutch people around New Jersey where GRRM grew up,he probably had exposure to the language.
The fake Lightbringer is nor for fighting others, it is for rallying people to the cause. She is still waiting for the real one
What if Melisandre is buying time because all has not been reverted to her yet but she is totally positive that her god will. She knows that she has to sell her beliefs at first before faith can set in ?
She has to know that sword was a fake because she herself glamoured it but perhaps she did it sorely as a propaganda tool to garner support and followers, still honestly believing that Stannis is truly azhor ahai and that eventually they would discover the true lightbringer somewhere, somehow.
I think she does believe Stannis is Lightbringer but also knows the sword is a fake. To get Lightbringer AA had to go through a lot of shit most definitely most of it is metaphors, quenching a sword in a lion's heart/blood wouldn't make a blade stronger.
I think she gave Stannis the sword so he would get followers and so he can start his journey but she knows he has to go through tremendous pain in order to fully become AA Reborn like seeing his wife die, so until he is fully realised in his prophetic journey Melisandre is practical and logical in using a charm to gather the masses.
She knows the stuff isn't real but it doesn't have to be because in her eyes she only has to wait for destiny to strike.
Just as the saying goes A person is smart, but, people are dumb
As far as I know Lightbringer has been lost. She could believe Stanis is Azur Ahai anyway. She could be holding out that they would come across Lightbringer as it'd be ordained to happen 🤷🏼♂️