Game of Thrones/ASOIAF Theories | AGOT Eddard III | Breakdown & Analysis
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Breakdown and Analysis of chapter sixteen in book 1 of the A Song of Ice and Fire Series, A Game of Thrones: AGOT Eddard III.
Theories and analysis of A Song of Ice and Fire using text evidence and quotes from George RR Martin.
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I want to point something out about the trial: Arya is telling the truth to get what she wants (justice), Joffrey is of course lying to get what he wants (Arya to get punished), and Sansa essentially trying to remain neutral. With Lady dying, I think George is trying to say that you simply can’t be neutral when it comes to these types of matters. Lady’s death also shows that Sansa can’t be “gentle and trusting” if she wants to survive.
I don’t think either of the girls have a clear idea that Joff would have killed Arya. Kids that age don’t have a well developed sense of consequences, especially sheltered highborns.
How much slack should Sansa get for being so young, naïve or inexperienced? Arya who is much younger passes every test when it comes to being fiercely loyal to her own and taking the moral stand when it counts.
As a counter argument the stand could be made that her actions, while brave and more than justified, only made things worse. She humiliated a crazy person with very influential parents. Even if Sansa had told the truth do you think Mommy Dearest Cerci would have let the matter stand? That is a serious question, not trying to be insulting.
Arya didn't take the moral stand when she joined a guild of assassins that kills people for money and calls it serving their god or when she killed Dareon even though he did nothing to her
I didn't think it was possible to like Ned more. When you guys do these reviews. It allows me to slow down, and really get a feel for what's going on. Thank you. Love these reviews.
Cersei definitely got what she wanted. In more ways than one. In AFFC, while at Darry and training w/Ser Illyn, Jaime treats their session like a confession at church and divulges more of the fallout from the Arya/Joff incident. According to Jaime, as he was f***ing Cersei in Rayum Darry's bed (after stepping over Robert who was passed out/drunk sleeping on the floor), Cersei kept saying "I want". At first Jaime thought she meant him, but quickly realized Cersei meant Arya. Per his own admission,
"...it was the Stark girl that she wanted, maimed or dead."
Jaime thinks to himself 'the things I do for love', then tells Ser Illyn how "it was only by chance that Stark's own men found the girl before me. If I had come on her first...". Meaning he would've killed Arya if given the chance.
Now hear me out...The Hound killing Mycah doesn't sit right w/me considering all he does is save children and that he himself was savaged as a kid. It seems more likely that Jaime- who's already attempted to kill one child- hedged his bets and killed Mycah so that Cersei's bloodlust was still quenched should the Lannisters fail to find Arya and he couldn't kill her. I could see Jaime riding Mycah down and delivering that savage overhand blow as the Hound watched from a distance, Jaime turning to ride away and ordering The Hound to retrieve the body by saying something like "fetch dog", and The Hound obeying the command. Either he came upon a dead body and collected it, or he discovered Mycah barely clinging to life and gave the boy the gift of mercy to end his suffering (something he teaches Arya about and dispenses himself to others later). Either way, The Hound takes the blame for the brutal attack because he's seen bringing Mycah's body back, so anyone who witnesses that will assume The Hound committed the murder based off his reputation (which is exactly what Ned did) while Jaime, the actual guilty party, is nowhere in sight. The Hound was Jaime's patsy the same way Hizdahr, Quentyn, or Daario was for whoever tried to poison Dany.
I love this! The Hound killing Micah has never rang true to me me either. And Jaime killing him seems more true to character . At this point in the story Jaime has led a sheltered existence, always Tywin's son. God knows no one would chastise the son of a man who annihilated the Reynes and Tarbacks without a second thought. Which would also mean Sandor would blindly follow orders. The banality of evil......
...holy fuck if this is true
@@HxH2011DRA Doesn't it make sense? The Hound is my favorite character so I'm always going to fight to exonerate him! Haha.
I hate the murder of Mycah. I really wish George hadn't included that in this chapter. So the butcher is somebody who worked for Ned? That means that, by feudal standards, Mycah was under Ned's protection, which means that murdering Mycah was an offence against Ned, and that Ned was obligated to either take revenge or get compensation. Who is going to want to work for the Starks when their lord doesn't protect them?
the killing of Lady always makes me tear up and is basically where I stopped at my attempt to re-read the series... too much heartbreak to experience again as much as I loved story in the whole
I've never re-read this chapter. I've re-read all the books at least 4 times. But when I get to this chapter I just skip it. Crazy I know there are so many horrors in the books, so much pain inflicted on innocents. But still the death of Lady just makes me too mad and sad. I can't bear it.
I hate this chapter because of the murder of Mycah, an innocent child. The direwolves are animals.
I never thought about it but with this chapter the double down on Sansa lying is the whole thing originally happened in Sansa's POV so it stands out just how much she lying here
Reposting from some previous video:
As a Sansa fan I have to mention the theory that Sansa actually didn't remember the Micha incident.
There are 2 times in the books where I remember Sansa drinking heavily.
First is before Micha when she goes walking with Jeoffrey and he encourages Sansa to drink.
The second is The Battle of Blackwater where she is drinking with Cercei.
After the battle she meets Glegane and in the next chapters we see her 'remember' the Unkiss.
So the theory is that she got drunk, saw the Micha incident, ran back and told Ned what happened. But the next day and 4 days after during the trial she actually didn't remember because she had gotten blackout drunk while walking with Jeoffrey.
@@leahpanya57 Jon was obliterated in his first chapter and remembered but Sansa is tipsy and doesn't 🙄. I really can't with Sansa. But she selectively remembered that it was Nymeria who bit Joffery. Having a good wine buzz isn't black out drunk. If she was black or drunk it would have been "that was the last she remembered" kinda line when she thinks back but she in no way does it is always Arya's fault.
@@bAmMoD216 @Becca Mullins She could remember that she left Lady at camp. And she heard both Arya's and Jeoffrey's testimonies at the trial.
Also Jon and Arya have this saying 'whatever you do don't tell Sansa'. I see it as evidence that Sansa is almost certain to tell Ned or Cat when someone is misbehaving in everyday life. And Robert is the king and this is a trial, surely she has been thought that good ladys don't lie to their king at trials.
The way I see it there's two ways to look at it. One is that what she sees during the Micah incident drives her insane and she spends the rest of the book gaslighting herself or something. The other is that she actually doesn't remember and decided it's a bit more likely that it's her 9/10 year old wild sister who lied at the trial instead of the beautiful 12 year old prince charming who treats her so well.
Also people have different alcohol tolerances.
These always pop up when I need them most 💙 Thanks, you two.
I think about how earlier chapters make it pretty clear that Cersei doesn't like having the direwolves around, and wonder if her demanding Lady be killed when she was completely innocent was less about wanting "justice" and more because she saw this as an easy way to get rid of the wolves that she hated so much. Nymeria had run off and it's implied that she was expecting and/or hoping for Jaime or the Hound to catch and kill her, and now she's demanding Lady be killed, because she knows Robert is basically too broken to protest, even when she's flat out demanding someone who is innocent be killed.
Also, Mycah's death is one of the most messed up things from these early chapters to me? Because he literally did nothing to even arguably warrant being charged with a crime, much less killed. He was essentially playing with Arya and the worst thing he did then was smack her with a stick and not even very hard. And with Joffrey, he did nothing but try to avoid a fight, being as respectful as he could and pretty much just standing there and taking it as Joffrey cut his cheek for no actual reason. And then he was killed because he ran, as anyone in that situation would have done, and because he was "just a butcher's boy", nobody cared to hear his side of the story - all that matter was Joffrey said Mycah attacked him, and he was as good as dead.
Arya cared... She never forgot nor forgave
What a truly cruel world...
One tiny detail is Eddard sending men on missions away from him. It starts here, Lennisters do shit, Eddard weakens his position solving their shit.
Good catch
I don't think Sansa (and possibly Arya as well) ever though that Joffrey was going to kill or even seriously hurt Arya. Her/their exposure to highborn boys in bad temper has been Robb, Theon, and Jon, who might threaten harm upon an annoying sister but who would never actually hurt them. The princes and knights from the stories Sansa has been told certainly wouldn't hurt a child.
I love these breakdowns, but this is one chapter where I almost hate to read because it’s just so aggravating how unfair everything is. You can tell Sansa has no Stark blood because she is the only one with absolutely NO backbone!
Who would you say is the father?
@@aaronnash2147 Littlefinger?
@@peteperkins3859 He's definitely in the top 3. And I'm pretty sure that at least one of the "trueborn" stark children is baseborn. If sansa isn't Ned's child then maybe lady was meant for Val?
@@aaronnash2147They're no saying she's not Ned's, just that the Tully genes 100% took over for her conception, Baratheon style.
Sansa is the worst. Just like her mother. Good breakdown you guys. 👍🏼
Am I out of line believing that killing the Butchers boy is out of character for Sandor??
Or was it believed that the boy assaulted the Prince and therefore his life was forfeited if he did anything but lay down and not move?
Was he given orders to kill him on-site from Cersei ?
I know the Hound kills pretty indiscriminately… But killing a young boy, unarmed and fleeing… Didn’t seem like something he would do and then be so brazen about it with Ned..
Maybe the show Sandor is creeping into my psyche too much..??
I agree, my first thought was that this was before The Hound's whole arc was planned out. You can see stuff like that sometimes in the first book of a long series. The horse drawn carriage in the first Redwall book for example.
That part always has bothered me because of how much hate he has for his brother… he flat out says he was bothered by how his brother didn’t care who he was running his sword through and why that tainted his view on knights. If he hated that part of Gregor so much why was he so willing and nonchalant about killing the butcher’s boy?
I think it's out of character for Westerosi society to just allow this murder with no repercussion. Even in feudal society, you can't murder people. If the butcher was working for Ned, that means that Ned was obligated to protect him and his son (the relationship between a lord and the people under them is a two-way street -- they are not slaves), which in turn means Ned should have been obligated to seek restitution for this crime.
Or is it GRRM's view that Mycah ran as in "tried to escape justice" and was therefore lawless? But then Arya would be lawless too.
Think of it from Clegane's point of view. The Hound wasn't there when Joffrey was attacked. He's charged with protecting the poor wee princeling. Can you imagine the shit he got off Cersei for letting him go off and be harmed like that? People in both parties are on edge. Tensions are running through both camps. He's not been given the full picture. He's not the type to question orders anyway. And he's got to make up for his past mistake. He may even have been told to make sure this boy doesn't speak before the king. (I'm pretty sure Cersei doesn't want anyone contradicting Joffrey's tale.) At this point in his character arc he trusts the chain of command. He's the unquestioning, loyal dog. Off his leash for the first time. He's been hunting for three days with other men who blindly follow orders, probably getting angrier and angrier, bragging about what they're going to do when they catch the little shit... And at the moment they do find him, well. It doesn't take much for a shit show to turn into a shit storm. (To borrow a little phrase from George Lahey.)
So, in answer to your questions:
Yes.
No. Robert would have wanted to hear what he had to say before deciding what to do with him.
All signs point to yes.
The Hound does seem to go out of his way specifically to fuck with Ned. His choice of language... "Little pet"
I always thought The Hound and Jorah could have swapped out their parts in the show.
@@deathdeathington I stil think The Hound would have tried to take him alive. I don't remember if they mention his age in the book but he's probably around 8yrs old like Arya. Good analyse though.
What do you mean about swapping Jorah and The Hound?
Well done guys. I love your channel and content. So in depth and easy to follow. ❤
We later find out that Jory actually helped Arya get Nymeria to run off so she wouldn’t get killed so I think there is a fair chance that the story Jory was given by her included just how close Joffrey came to killing her before the wolf stepped in. Jory was one of Ned’s closest men so I think that one conversation with him after this whole charade may have been enough along with whatever shite Sansa told him was enough to make Ned very distrustful of Joffrey. Honestly after the whole Arya debacle I was surprised he didn’t send her right back up the King’s Road to her mother at Winterfell just to keep her out of Cersei’s clutches
A dragon is no slave.
Very cool. Thanks OGH
There's also foreshadowing in this chapter, about how the Lions are desperate to kill the Wolves. But isn't it telling that Sansa didn't come with Ned to say goodbye to Lady before the execution? I don't remember him telling her not to. I know Arya would have fought tooth and nail to be there and at least say goodbye if it was Naimeria getting killed.
Well, to be fair, when we had our dog put down I could not bear to go and I was much older. I felt ashamed afterwards, but there you are.
Wait, did Ned not talk to Sansa for four whole days!? Did Sansa not tell anyone about what had happened? I also was under the impression that everything happened the same day, so Ned did not have time to figure everything out.
Awesome as always Mi Lady and Mi lord!
loving this series! I´m almost done with A Storm Of Swords (audiobook readf by Roy of course) for the first time!
I am completley blown away by GRRM writing
Ned knew the TRUTH. He rehearsed Sansa’s lies. If he wanted truth he would have gently reminded her. He said he wanted her VOICE, not the truth. He wasn’t surprised at Sansa’s story or Aryas attacking. They were in danger and Sansa’s story did diffuse the situation by leaving room for doubt. Sansa was Ned’s creature here, that’s why she blinked at Arya. She knew she was going to lie to everyone before she walked in.
An interesting theory.
Personally I wanted atleast one episode or even extra chapters portraying the stark siblings and families. Like you never see an interaction between robb and sansa or sansa and ned. As if sansa only was attached to cathelynn and the septa. Also sansa has displayed lying and deceiving forger own gain like she is the less Stark of the bunch
Forget Ned for a second, if ROBERT found out that Jeoffrey attacked Arya with a steel sword-a sharp steel sword-I think Robert would also be horrified.
I'm a Sansa fan and I think Ned , Arya and most of the fandom (including Sansa fans) are wrong about Sansa here.
Sansa is known for being a proper lady and proper ladies know that you don't lie to your king during trials. I have seen nothing in the text to prove that Sansa at that point in the story is politically savvy enough to justify to herself lying in a trial. Sure when she's older we see her lie to the lords in the Vale under Littlefingers guidance but that's after she's been implicated in two murders by Littlefinger and is the 'only' Stark alive.
Jon and Sansa literally have a saying 'whatever you do don't tell Sansa' that indicates that Sansa is horrible at keeping secrets (and we see her reveal plenty). I have a hard time believing Sansa would lie to The King under regular circumstances, unless her family told her to, and this was an official trial as far as I could tell.
We see her drink more alcohol than ever before in the previous chapter. The next time we see a Lannister getting Sansa drunk is before the 'unkiss' so it's reasonable to assume that when Sansa gets drunk she misremembers things without realizing that it's the alcohols fault (+trauma).
And the next time we see her think about the Micah incident is before Joffrey's wedding, if I remember correctly. That is over a year later and Sansa has realized that Joffrey is the type of person to do what Arya accused him of in the trial. Surely if Sansa had lied we would see her struggle with it or discuss it with Ned, but neither happens.
We see her influence Joffrey into doing kinder things but not once is it accompanied by a 'if only I had managed to do this at the trident' or 'this reminds me of Arya and the butchers boy'.
The only reason for her to lie and never think of it would be if she is some sort of crazy person after witnessing the Micah incident.
Everyone agrees that it makes no sense for her to blame Arya for Lady's death. Well it makes no sense if Sansa remembers what happened. If she doesn't remember then it's just the matter of choosing between her wild sister that she doesn't understand and the 'golden prince' with decent manners who literally sang to her while they were out riding.
Lastly I heard that G.R.R. Martin said that he added the scene because he thought the Starks were getting along too well.
Edit: small corrections
I find it funny that every thing really starts to fall apart in Derry. Derry was one of the gaurds that got Dany out of Westeros. Might be a connection between the land and the people in the story?
Thanks dave and Mary Ellen.
This is why I could never forgive Sandor, even if he has reasons for being how he is
I will never understand the Hound love among ASOIAF fans.
@@AMAubert I mean I get it. Much like Jamie or even Tyrion I understand there are reasons he does what he does. But he has even less honor than Jamie & isn't as even more coopable than Tyrion. Even at their worst they do bad things because of their emotions & show regret, whereas The Hound just does it with virtual numbness
Well he hangs around Lannisters so he might have an idea what Cersei might have done to Micah if he was captured alive. I doubt she would have cared even if Micah was declared innocent in the trial. Cersei would probably have him kidnapped, tortured and put in the black cell.
Loving these chapter breakdowns. Great work guys!
Same. I just wish we got more per week 🤣
There’s no telling who got to Sansa though. Cersai is a master manipulator (to 11 year old little girls anyway). She could’ve been threatened and most probably lied to about what would happen if she told the whole story. No telling. To Sansa’s defense, she’s 11, raised by a crazy mom who probably filled her head with nonsense about ruining chances of a good match if she ever speaks against her betrothed etc (which betrothed in those days was as good as wed). She was clearly wrong but probably very frightened.
Renly is always good for a memorable quote
It just occured to me, how funny Liontooth must be in the german version.
Lion-tooth = Löwen-Zahn = Löwenzahn = dandlelion, which is not scary at all.
OOTGH!!!!!!!
Winter is coming...
Cersei did call forth Sansa in the show but it's nice to hear the differences in the books I might buy them now I'm intrigued
Something that confuses me is how they got to Darry when Arya disappeared by the crossroads inn
Also.. Can we please discuss something...
What if Jof HAD killed Arya?.. No one ever even finds out he tried.. But..there's an alternate story out there where Jof killed Arya..and I'm super curious as to how that wouldve been handled...
Broooo Ned would have tore him apart and Robert would have dealt with cersie
@@jackbelmont4389 would he???
Idk if Robert would have... I mean.. this scene shows that with how it played.
@@thisguy8106 yea cause it wasnt serious enough. Just patch joffrey and kill the pet but I bet if it was ned's daughter that had been killed i doubt Robert would have stood up against Ned
Woot woot!
I wonder that Ned didn't turn around and leave King's Landing as it was, given he'd witnessed Cersei order the murder of two innocent parties. Sure enough, later in the book she has almost the entirety of the Stark forces murdered.
Poor Lady. She forgot she was a direwolf and let herself be killed. Lady let Sansa put a leash on her, she even stayed put when she was tied up and left behind. Lady was never a dog, but for some reason she pretended she was.
I think Sansa is currently pretending to be a -Baelish- Stone. Guess we'll see how that turns out.
Do we ever hear of Lady's body and her escort making it to Winterfell?
One of Bran's chapters mentions that Summer and Shaggydog have been howling over the grave of their fallen sister. So we don't get to see Lady return to Winterfell but there's no doubt she did.
@@aromusbaspet9032 thanks!
The other direwolves start howling when Lady’s bones come back to Winterfell, but that’ s all we hear about it if I remember correctly
1. Ser Raymun Darry... Maybe he knows that the actual lord Darry is alive and well somewhere else? Quiet Isle, Essos?
2. Feels like Robert must have been very happy when the boar got him...
3. I'm wondering what story Cersei knows. Because if the story she knows is "Arya, her wolf and the butcher boy tried to kill my beloved Joffrey", then I kinda understand her actions. Just mother's rage "kill everyone who tried to harm my son" mode, with it being Cersei as a cherry on top of it.
I like how this chapter showed Arya getting better at survival as a side note while we are focused on many other things going on. Good touch. Same with the Queen's men line. I didn't notice that detail showing the divide was bigger than expected.
I live the Poole family in rereads Seeing thier exploits as they are confidants very trustworthy.
Renly making light of everything again. Green boy true and true. He and theon should have talked more as they act the same.
Sansa nice move killing a direwolf. Not many can do that with just words. It took the Frey grown men to do that.
The four honor guards escorting Lady's body back to Winterfell also echo the Kingsguard and Howland Reed escorting Lyanna's body back to Winterfell. Ned compared Sansa's pleas to Lyanna's pleas in the same chapter. I still think Lady's death was a parallel with Ned giving Lyanna The Gift to keep her from getting raped by the Mountain and Lorch.
Poor Lady would still be alive today had it not been for Cersai calling Robert the N word in court tsk tsk
🙌🙌🙌🙌
What honor does Tywin has?
None at all. My biggest problem with Dave and Mary Ellen is their Tywin fanboying, and fangirling
@@AMAubert The honor of doing a good job? Kinda stretching here, but the realm DID prosper under Tywin as Hand.
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First to view :P
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I hate this chapater more hate than red wedding