The HIDDEN problem you should know about Sim Pedals
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- Опубліковано 30 вер 2024
- The unspoken truth no one have ever explained publicly for most of the sim pedals which cost lot of time in the braking zone and how you can solve or at leas minimize this and improve your times on the track!
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Since so many people seem to have misunderstood I’ll try to help. Steliyan is referring to the fact that when rubber is put under load will initially resist more and then relax. This is why the input drops from 70% to 60% without his foot moving or the force he’s putting in changing. He isn’t referring to elastomer blow out or age related rubber degradation. It’s a fundamental flaw in the decision of sim pedal manufacturers to place elastomers between the input force and the loadcell censor. The issue can only be corrected by using metal instead of rubber as this is the only way to avoid the inherent molecular problem.
Thanks buddy 🍻
@@chepilevski no worries my friend! I thought your explanation was fantastic, don’t know why some people didn’t get it but sometimes hearing it slightly differently helps people understand!
It is normal thing 🤛
Thanks again bro 🍻
Hi Steliyan at the end what do you use on the p1000 angle sensor or load cell, the problem of relaxation did you solve with the hydraulic piston? Thank you always for these technical lessons
@@zazadj1 He answered these questions in previous videos and comments so I’ll take the liberty of transmitting the information. He ended up using the Hall effect angle sensor because it prevented the elastomer relaxation issue. The same issue remains present with the hydraulic kit as it’s still compressing elastomers.
I am an engineer and I work with elastomers. I will try to break down the phenomenon being described a little more completely than I have seen so far, although there are already some good explanations.
Elastomers are viscoelastic. This means that they can behave like a viscous material (like honey) such that when you apply a load to it it will continue to deform slowly after the initial deflection. When the load is removed the elastomer will elastically recover close to it's original position and for the most part be undamaged.
There are two ways to measure viscoelasticity. The first is creep. You load the elastomer using a constant load (weights are good). The elastomer will have an immediate deflection, then over time it will deflect more or creep. You apply constant load and the deflection slowly increases.
The second method is called stress relaxation. In this method the elastomer is deformed to a specified position and then held there. The load in the elastomer is measured. Overtime the material relaxes and the load decreases.
When talking about how this affects muscle memory it really is dependant on the type of muscle memory you have. If your muscle memory is positional, meaning you press the brake to a specific position and hold it there the elastomer will experience stress relaxation and the load on the load cell and the load on your foot will decrease after the initial brake application.
If your muscle memory is load based, meaning you have a memory of how much force you need to press the pedal, then the elastomer will experience creep, where after the initial pedal press, the pedal will begin to deflect further during the braking zone. But the load on the load cell and on your foot have not changed.
That is great explanation from expert !
Thanks for the post buddy, it was really informative 🍻
This is the correct answer.
I'd like to add to this that there are rubbers and there are rubbers. Most companies use the same standard off the shelf rubber compounds/inserts.
There are also companies that do not igone the issue of creep and relaxation and actually developed their own mix of rubber compound to improve the characteristics of the rubber.
In addition, muscle memory is almost always force and motion based, not necessarily position. Meaning you can automatically (without paying specific attention to it) do a certain motion with a certain force. This is not really the case for position, hence the incredible difference in performance when someone switches to a (actually) load/force based resistance in their pedals.
This so much! Only people who use a certain pedal position as their reference will have problems with that because a good simracer will modulate their braking pressure after the initial brake anyway so you correct fot that elastic change in the rubber anyway.
I'm a noob and this is a lot to take in. I've been re-reading this for a couple of times now.
Just wanted to make sure I understood this correctly. I play with a very stiff and short travel brake - load as my muscle memory. Am I correct to say that this phenomenon wouldn't affect me as much, if at all, since the deformation(creep) of the elastormer has nothing to do with how much pressure the loadcell is reading from the force that's being applied by my leg?
@@LymarkW Correct, with a stiff brake pedal there wont be much initial deflection, and the creep will be smaller as well. The load at the load cell will always be proportional to the load at your foot and the viscoelasticity does not affect this.
With load based muscle memory, the viscoelasticity will not affect your inputs. And with a very stiff pedal you are unlikely to notice your brake pedal deflecting more during the brake zone.
Materials engineer here. You're not an engineer, but you definitely understand the basic concepts and are able to explain them well :) Good content! PS. I'm using springs too ;)
Nice to read a comment from professional 🍻
as an engineer please contact sim pedal manufacturers and have them fix this issue!!
@@chepilevskiI'm not a materials engineer but I think I came as close as possible to mimicking hydraulic pedal feel with an elastomer spring configuration. I did a ton of research on materials and testing various setups like you did, and I came across a combination of components that gives the best pedal feel possible without going hydraulic. To start, I found everything I needed at McMaster-Carr, they sell an almost infinite amount of industrial supply components (only place I could find this stuff). I have a total of 4 springs of 3 different types. The first is a spring-tempered steel spring. This steel spring is preloaded to 50N and maxes out at 160N but can easily take a 1000N of force without deforming any further. Travel for the steel spring is 7 millimeters after being preloaded. The rest of the springs are what's called High-Load Fastener-Mount Compression Springs, and these give more of a hydraulic feel than any elastomer or spring I tested. I used two 9732K11 springs and a single 9677K3 spring. I also included cut-to-fit acetal dry-running sleeve bearings to eliminate shaft friction under load. My loadcell has never performed better.
@hansjmo I'm curious as to what spring configuration you're using?
@zqzj your taken this further than me, im using simagic p2000 haudraulic pedals with two stage springs, but im currently building some pedals i can reverse mount. I got my hands on a variable haudraulic damper, and im thinking of running a two stage spring setup with some elastomere rings inside the soft spring. Im learning cnc in a makerspace in oslo and will cut 5mm carbon plates (inspired by hausenkveld). I hope it feels good and that i can tune them properly 😀
Good video! From a technical perspective you’re absolutely right and this is one of the reasons I generally opt for a spring and stiff elastomer combination on most pedals. The spring brings me to my threshold point and the elastomer provides the necessary feel to modulate around it.
One point to consider though, how often are you actually trying to hold the brake at a fixed position? My personal take on this is that as long as the response is consistent, you will establish appropriate trail braking muscle memory that accounts for this relaxation, just as a real life racing driver will account for g-force, brake fade, ballooning brake lines, pad wear, etc.
Of course it could then be argued that in a sim we don’t have the seat of the pants feel to assist us, but again we are talking about a consistent relaxation of the elastomer here, not something that is changing throughout the course of a race.
I can say from my personal experience using a huge variety of different types of pedals, I’m no faster on pedals that use springs (VRS for example) or even pedals that use a totally different design like the SC Active Pedals. As long as I have a consistent and clearly defined threshold point that I can hit consistently and modulate around, I’m fine.
One very interesting design I tested was the Sim Coaches pedals a few years ago. They used concave metal washers that acted like a spring when pushed together which gave a very consistent feel and a huge range of adjustability.
Hey Will, do you mean sim coaches used Belleville Washers for elasticity of the pedal ?
If yes, i didn’t know someone did that already as that’s sounds like really cool idea someone pointed before and was looking to see how that can perform and what choices of compression they have 😮
@@chepilevskiyes that’s what they’re called. They included a selection of different thicknesses so you could basically dial in whatever combination you wanted. Unfortunately we had some major issues with the pedals in other areas and ended up sending them back, so I can’t comment on how the washers lasted, but have a look at my review video on them to see how they used the washers.
@@boostedmedia that really interesting man.
Is unfortunate there was an issue with those and you couldn’t test them further!
I will check out how they did that as it seems to be very interesting concept!
Really nice video. I have made the same observation on my dutch pedal set. A solution to the non-linearity (between pedal travel and pedal force) with springs is the one used in the VRS pedals, with a rotating cam construction. I tried those pedals 4 years ago on the sim racing expo and they were my highlight of the show, they felt incredibly precise. There is one other aspect to consider though, and maybe you can dig into that a little: How do the hydraulic systems in real race cars behave? From my memory, these brake pedals get stiffer the faster you move the pedal (has to do with the hydraulic liquid moving through holes separating two chambers). This damping effect can obviously be felt and the elastomer brakes on sim racing pedals may be immitating this effect quite well, much better than any linear spring ever could. Therefore my question: Isn't this behavior of the elastomers very comparable to the behavior of hydraulic systems in real life race cars, and aren't we thus facing a choice between realism and maximum precision / performance? And: Is the VRS design with a spring, rotating cam, and additional adjustable hydraulic dampers potentially the perfect construction, aside from active pedals? 🙂
Pedal manufacturers insert these rubbers to appease drivers to match their sim pedals to the car they drive in real life. In go-karts and F1 cars, there is only the slight flex of the pedal itself, so the pedal travel is only millimeters. It's more like trying to push a brick. I have a Ricmotech load cell conversion for my old Logitech G29 brake pedal, which has zero rubbers. It feels just like the brake pedal in a go-kart, so muscle memory is a lot easier, as it is just pressure applied, with hardly any actual brake travel. I wouldn't swap my pedals for anything else on the market, until someone makes pedals without these artificial brake travel rubbers. A lot of sim racers would benefit from a try-out in a real race car... they would be shocked how hard the brake pedal feels.
I noticed this deficiency with the load cell after coming from a cheap set of Logitech pedals way back. I think those used POT's but I noticed the braking points were more stable with less variance as I held the pedal in a constant state of pressure/travel. With that being said I was more accurate with my braking once I switched to load cell because of the feel but I never forgot this fact through my sim racing years.
Recently I have applied an inverse exponential curve to my braking on my sprint pedals and it feels much nicer than the linear behavior that is stock in the software. I think is due to the high end of the curve being slightly saturated that doesn't allow for as much change during the final compression stages at 80% brake. After watching your video this makes sense because as we compress the elastomers they exhibit a non linear behavior at the extremes. With my curve the mechnical properties of the eslastomers are filtered at the extreme compression ranges.
Could you do a video on this topic and potentially test? I think that you will find this will be a better way to solve the problem beyond changing the elastomers for springs. Let me know what you think. I am an electrical engineer and not mechanical but after reading the documentation in your video description it makes sense to me.
Wow, that is such a logical explanation of why they start working so much on those curves in the software and makes so much sense! That is definitely something I completely missed and must test ! It makes so much sense 🤛 thx buddy
@@chepilevski No problem man thanks for making the video. I would also like to add that saturating at the high ends has the negative effect of less linear control but the way I see it I never modulate at the high ends anyway. I am simply off and on that limit. The portions for trailing and medium braking retain that linear behavior however so it works out great.
@@gregglasscock7470 that’s exactly the case man, we usually hit the brake hard quickly at the beginning and keep it there as long as we go straight and there is no any modulation of the pressure and then we drop down like from 80-90 percent down to 30-20 very quickly and modulating that turn in releasing even further!
I haven’t tested that yet but those curves makes so much sense and can be tested easily!
I’m so excited about that suggestion as it can be the best and easiest solution for most of the people out there 💪
Hi Greg, as sprint owner too I am really interested in the curve you are using. What are percentages? Cheers, Chris
@@stubbsyyy I think it is called S+1 or something like that. It's right under the default curve. I slightly edit the saturated top end to my liking. I think it will be up to the elastomers that you use.
This sounds very curious. Will have to take a look i'm on heusinkveld sprints but always had trouble holding that peak pressure
I would love to know how it goes with your set and if you find solution to it buddy! There are many on this set who are looking for to solve it !
Great video and thank you for breaking that down. It makes sense that over time, with heat, etc. the rubber will begin to break down and not have the same resistance. I’ve experienced this myself with my DIY mods. Working with springs alone does seem to be the best way as they are designed to have that constant movement with minimal degradation if you will. Another like from me for sure. Thank you again!
Yeah man , in some elastomers is huge problem 🙈
I found springs to be way more precise in the initial push keeping there load and speaking just 1-2% which doesn’t make difference
Just to clarify: what you describe is part of the problem, but it does not need to involve the rubber breaking down in any way. It is an inherent problem to the rubber itself.
At 3:00, he introduces a paper that opens with "three distinct categories (of problems when using elastomers)." He goes on to focus on the third of those three problems, which is that when you press on the rubber elastomers, they don't respond exactly to your inputs. You press on them, and they transmit that force, but then they relax even when you continue pressing on them with the same force, and even when the rubber elastomer is new and in good condition. That is discussed at 3:34.
It's a problem with new elastomers that are in good shape, not just old and worn out ones. It's a problem with the elastomers themselves.
@@TheKornfeld thx for the help buddy 🤛
This phenomenon has been well documented in sim pedals for years. In terms of actual difference when racing im sceptical since its rare that you ever hold a constant pressure for very long at all.
That is correct , not all corners need constant pressure for more then 2 seconds indeed!
Very interesting & thought provoking video, RBM. I've always (personally) wondered if there is another side to this - which is driving "by habit". To explain, I used to get together with my brother to race once a month at our homes, selecting a new car & track, and Hotlap it till the fastest time won at the end of the day. But one thing that hit me hard, was that if it was a track I already knew. I noticed that I especially braked always at the same place, and say ALWAYS changed down the gears once or twice automatically which might have slowed me down too much, but did it just out of sheer habit. It was only when it was my turn to watch my brother, that I was able to see if he was able to take corner ABC for example without lifting off / where I would brake at a certain point JUST OUT OF HABIT or MUSCLE MEMORY???
So it became a ritual where I watched him, and at times, he watched where I was faster (using my slow in, fast out technique) that we BOTH became faster, when we threw out our own ways of driving any track due to sheer habit. So I've always wondered if that is a (kind of?) muscle memory also??? I hope that made sense to you RBM, as I tend to waffle on a bit too much, hahaha.
That is also big thing man!
With the years I realize when I start practicing a track for a week or two , I just couldn’t improve at some point and when I come back months later I’m faster !
That exactly what muscle memory and bad habits do to our performance and we start doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results 🙈
When we come back later and those habits are not polished we can actually try something new which can help or of course make things wrong!
There is lots of sense in your story up there 🤛
Hey buddy, it's been a while 😀 This is a very interesting subject, thanks for the information. I use Fanatec V3 pedals with the elastomer and damper kit upgrade on my brake pedal so I might not be able to replace the elastomers with springs due to their size and location. But this makes so much sense as I usually have to make slight adjustments to the brake pedal every couple of months or so to add some more pre-load to the elastomer. Now thinking about it, I guess that having the elastomers so snuggly fit inside the metal tube may prevent it from expanding past a certain amount. 🤔
I just ordered myself a set from china. You need 12 mm wide and 55mm long in total [so combination of 25 and 30, or any other totalling 55 will be fine]. Theres different compression values in kg, so maybe mix some up to see whats good for you or to create progression.
Sound like all this time we have been trail braking without realising😂
Exactly 🤣🤣🤣
Fanatec V3s elastomers sit in a metal tube housing stopping them from bulging. That should help negate this effect. I'd imagine if someone started offering metal housings for their pedal's elastomers this effect could be largely reduced. As for it helping people become faster, I'm not convinced. Most people already have their pedal's characteristics baked into their subconscious and are compensating for this effect. But, then again, sim racers are like hypochondriacs. Instead of their bodies it's their rigs that they believe there's always something about it that needs to be cured to make them faster. Just remember, there's always some kid on a G29 in a lawn chair in front of a TV hanging above a fireplace running faster laps than you.
You are totally right and probably for some people will not make any difference but still, it is good to be at least aware what’s going on and if there is a chance, to have full control on there own and not the hardware doing the job 🍻
Nah, dont think youre right buddy, mostly because theres two sizes of elastomers for V3's - the 12mm and 13mm wide - you cant tell me the 12mm wont expand more than the 13mm in the 13mm chamber [i think the chamber is actually bit wider]. Also, there are different hardnesses, they will also act different, even the 13mm one will react more the softer one you choose.
@@MntRprznt Yes, the 12mm will bulge more than the 13mm in relation to it's size, but neither can bulge beyond the confines of the tube.
|Do me a favor then and go to your fanatec control panel on the pedals page, depress the pedal 100|%, release few % and hold the foot super still. Watch the value on the gauge. You'll see it dropping A LOT slowly. Thats why it doesnt matter if the elastomer is encased or not. It still slowly releases tension. @@jeffwills2869
When it's all said and done, every sim racing peripheral is a tool. Sometimes better tools can yield better results, but it's the user that has to learn how to use the tool to it's fullest potential to achieve that. I like to joke than we can indeed buy speed. That's not really true on its face, but we can buy better tools.
Steliyan, my man is a delivery guy and a mad scientist at the same time. When are you submitting your PhD thesis on sim racing? 😂
🤣🤣🤣
biggest point most ppl dont understand muscle memory is automated movement and not pressure .
i always configure my brake so that i´m at about 80% with only spring compression and the last few % goes into the elastomeres . but thats not muscle memory anymore thats only for more realistic feeling
Yes man,many think exactly that🙈
When people type for example on there phone explaining how angle sensor doesn’t work and must be pressure sensor, they don’t even realize while typing that there fingers reach every letter without even looking ware is positioned on the keyboard from that automated movement they have created typing massages for years !
They are reaching every symbol trough that muscle memory not trough pressure!
Automated movements are just controlled from different part of the brain which is an awesome feature we have to be able to do many things at one’s without consciously trying!
I work at a spring manufacturer and test springs every day. Unless you take them to solid height ("set" them) they will always return the same force at a given length. I've always wondered why so many pedals utilize elastomers instead of a spring spec'd out for the correct rates. I guess cost is a concern, but honestly, when you are talking about the steep costs of some pedal sets I think elastomers are just a strange decision in perceived top shelf gear.
I've zero clue on how all these work, but say If I were to look for high-quality springs, are there any well-known brands or maybe certain criteria that I should keep an eye on? Thanks!
That’s is something which drives me crazy!
All pedals are so expensive and if the cost is bit bigger it must not be so impactful for the end cost of those expensive pedals!
That’s great question buddy
I think they use elastomers because it feels more realistic. The resistance of a IRL hydraulic brake pedal is not linear, unlike a spring. I've tried spring pedals and it feels totally weird - it's like my foot sinks to the bottom.
Awesome video. Agree 100% I hate rubber elastomers wish I could find some springs for mine.
To be honest I never thought about this but now as you mention it, it's logical and fitting with my physical understanding about rubber. I think this is a very important poit, when it comes to optimum braking feeling. Thank you very much Stelian to talk about this problem of elastomer behavior. Sorry for my bad English🙈😅
Your videos are the best
I've modded my Ultimate-brake with a quite beefy pressure spring about two years ago and tried elastomers in between, but kept the spring-mod, which works great for my brake-pressure (50-60 kg). Now it's one elastomer and two springs including the default small one and I've added a bump-stop inside. I've also tried to replace the elastomer with a plastic one, but the elastomer adds a little more brake-feel to it and the Heusinkveld's are much better than the average ones. Elastomers are widely used for brake-pedals because they feel more like a hydraulic brake compare to a spring in the first place while being cheaper and less prone to leak than hydraulic brakes.
Great to hear you found mod for your ultimates buddy 😃
Same setup I have on SimJack pros. I've kept one elastomer (the short one, like 3cm), and two springs of different rate. Full spring wasn't progressive enough for me. I like the setup a lot now. Maybe it could be even better replacing that elastomer with a better one, but I don't want to increase its rate so I don't know
I did the same mod, what a differnece!! I used red long die spring and one of the smaller had Ultimate plus elastomers.
I think the main issue with people thinking hall sensors are not as good as loadcells is all to do with the cheap pedals that used to use them.
Those old pedals only measured distance but the pedals were always super light and not enough travel.
Having a good set like the p1000i I have the hall sensor is perfect. As Stiliyan says the feel under foot is the same as when using a loadcell. So it was never about the hall sensor being bad its was about the feel but people believed the hype and everyone ran with it "loadcell is best" but it's not that cut and dry.
Very well explained man , absolutely correct statement 🤛
One thing that I have always wondered, is how people swear that hydraulic brake pedals are much better than regular load cell brakes.
As I see it, the hydraulic brakes still compresses rubber, just like load cell brakes. You just move the rubber away from the pedal, but the feel/effect should remain the same.
The argument I hear people say about hydraulics, is that a real car has hydraulic in the brake system and therefore it is better/more realistic.
Well, the hydraulic on a car, and on the sim brake pedal, does not compress. The compressing feeling you get in a real car is 90% vacuum brake booster and 10% pads to disc travel and maybe a very small compression here as well.
IMO if anyone wants to simulate a proper brake feeling, air/vacuum system is needed or an active pedal.
Because of that I bought the VRS pedals. They don’t have elastomers.
If you're refering to P1000 elastomer issue, it's not because of elastomer. The loadcell ballhead is too close to the black metal cover which collide with the loadcell under pressure. If you remove the cover elastomer works like a spring. No drifting at all.
Thanks for that info buddy 😮
I will definitely give it a go 🤛
In a nutshell: it is not about having a load cell as much as progressive resistance, however it may be provided, repeatability in the way it is measured, and stability in the reading. Elastomers and hal effect sensor could do as good of a job as springs and load cell, or pneumatic and pressure reading... But elastomers and load cells seem to be a bad combination.
Really interesting topic. Thx for sharing.
Hmm... Explains why I could never brake consistently with sprints. Never liked elastomer either. On top of that sprints to me felt like a rock at first to hit the brake. I feel like I could brake better with a linear pedal to be honest. To me personally I feel like distance works better for me than pressure, doesn't feel good on the other hand.
I know what you mean buddy!
Sometimes from nowhere I brake at the exact same braking point and I miss the corner 🙈
Some elastomer’s can be really inconsistent.
Also, muscle memory is not a pressure memory but automated movement and that can explain why you feel more confident with your old angle measure pedals as you have created that movement in you brain to perfection and now you have to build new one but with inconsistent pressure!
The Honda Fire Blade has an ABS system that has the brake leaver disconnected from the break circuit. The feeling of the break leaver is supplied by a piece of rubber in the master cylinder. So Honda seem to have solved this problem.
😃
I never understood, why elastomers. might as well use a real hydraulic system like in a car, combined with angle sensor. Giving the right sense for gripping point and the right feel with resistance. Obvious more expensive then some elastomers.
Agree 🤛
Why just not have a hydraulic set to begin with but with hydralic transducer at the end where the brake caliper would be ranging from 500-1500 bar and problem solved .
Yep, some do that but there models cost a fortune 🙈
very intersting !
I've got the p1000 set to angle to get the more stable feeling what would bring me the hydrolic kit based on elastomer too ?
The hydraulic kit comes with set of elastomers and aluminum spacers which minimize that problem by large amount !
I use 6 red rubber paces and 3 aluminum spacers which calmed down a lot the load cell sensor but I still prefer to use the angle sensor anyway 🤛
@@chepilevski why dont you get rid of those inperfect elastomers and use only aluminium spacers ? sorry for that bad joke... and thank you for your answer !
Manufacturers are going to need to implement a software & hardware solution for this. In simple terms, monitor pedal movement with a sensor and maintain input level via software if pedal hasn't moved. Ive noticed this issue too but thought it was just me and my inconsitent foot! Thanks for making a video on it.
That will be great if they do indeed buddy!
very interesting
Fanatecs V3 performance kit doesn’t drop like these. Is it because Fanatecs elastomer is in a tube?
If the elastomers are not compressed too hard the effect is less ! As much more we squeeze them , that much more the effect becomes present!
Drivers will find any excuse for being slow, even a study about the fing pedals.
🤣🤣🤣 that is so true indeed 🙈
The main point is to constantly looking for improvement and that is everywhere 💪
Such a great video brother, i recognize the music obviously haha, i have a new sample pack coming soon but id love to send you a few previews for you to use before anyone else :)
Please do that 😃
Your music is more then the half of my videos man !
I’m getting inspired from it and start getting pictures before my eyes what and how I have to shoot and edit
@@chepilevski Hey brother, yeh man, works so well, i sent you a private message on instagram, as you know my music is all about what captures your mind my friendl :)
Bought tlcm's while ago. I hated felling of bottoming springs even with both reds you can easily press the brake pedal to the end and feel sudden stop. My experiments with rubber elastomers got me the right feeling, of course the travel of the pedal has shortened but it felt just like real brake, press it hard and you don't feel sudden end of travel but it is almost imposiible to push more. I immediately noticed that input values dropped after moment when pedal is pressed but i thought it is because my lack of training. After this video i'm giving springs a second chance.
Yeah i am willing to sacrifice the real life brake feeling if metal springs give me better control over the brake force, i'll definetely try this today when i get home
@@Turbonuotti 3 days since springs are back. Bit of getting used to but (hate to say it) overall better brake control especially in long braking zones. Feeling is not as terrible as i expected.
Aha, but what if, you already new this phenomenon or mechanical deficiency existed, you can use it to your advantage, as in automatic trail braking. I use Simforge pedals and oh yeah, you could see it happening on their calibration software! I recently purchased and received, their new Elastomer & Spring upgrade, which lesson the effect using the over sized (larger diameter) elastomers, in place of the standard size. Now I'v a more positive brake feel.
I do like what the P1000 has with both, position & elastomers working together, but won't move to those, until the software is 100% sorted, across the board. As always great content!
i'm very happy with VRS pedals becouse thay have spring
They must be great indeed! I’ve heard lots of positive feedback!
I have been talking about this since I changed from elastomers to spring pedals on my live streams. Nice explanation here, kudos meng🤘
Awesome bro 💪😃
I 100% agree with you on the rubber performance. I created the perfect setup on rubbers, but noticed a tinny gap down/dead zone after 150 laps around the Nurburgring.
Can't wait to throw my hardest spring on the bottom of the healthy rubbers with some fat ass spacers in between. That combo always worked for me, but we like to experiment and change, even when we know it's a temporary thing and that's what makes sim racing one of the most uplifting experiences on earth
That last sentence bro 💪💪💪😃🍻
Subbed, I love gaining new technical insights about my hobby, and this was presented very well! It's hard to argue with those load cell readouts. I guess I'll hold off on my load cell mod until I have metal springs.
Sounds like a plan 🍻
@@chepilevski Apparently yt is removing my comments and threatening my channel over spam so I WON'T mention where I'm getting them from, but I'm getting multiple die springs to see which ones work. If I can I'll find out what their rates are and report back.
This rubber problem is not really an issue if you don't rely 100% on the elastometer for the force curve. Use the preload spring for 80% of the brake curve, and only the last 20% should be elastometer (with max pressure around 25 kg). I know this is not how it is in real life, but let's not pretend that sim racing is real life.
That is good suggestion indeed for pedals which have spring in the pedal and use the rubber for even 40% of the total pressure which won’t have big impact of the overall relaxation!
Very good point and probably fix for the problem 🤛
@@chepilevski Right this can be applied to heusinkveld, but for those with full elasto stack its difficult, you have to switch to spring there for sure.
I'm not a material engineer but I did work with elastomer for aeronautics as a quality and lab testing manager.
I'm surprised no one have talked of the issue you see with the compound.
1-There is a mix of different material to make a compound, it depends heavily of what your are trying to achieve
2-You need to bake the elastomer after molding it. This will help release gases, and also aging the elastomer faster so it will be more stable during it span life. The oven curves are very precise depending of the compound. These curves have steps with duration and slope to reach T°.
All of this help your compound to have a very repeatable behavior (what I was checking with the lab tests).
Hope this will helps the debate. 😅
Thank you very much! I thought it was my own strength failing, being tired after initial brake pressure, and that I need to "focus" more in order to brake better. Now I could switch to the position sensor for the first 80% and I would not feel bad about it.
I’ve discussed this with many people over the last months and every one who have noticed this phenomenon was thinking , his muscles couldn’t keep up at that constant pressure! Some start trying to compensate with adding more pressure after the initial input to compensate but then we saw on the brakes telemetry the input goes all over the place 🙈
I think the problem won't be so bad, if the pedal manufacturers, added a tiny bass shaker with their pedals that vibrate at high frequency so you can feel the input and release. Another way is, adding auditory queues from squeeky brake pads and tire chirps via software.
They shakers are must for sure
Thank you for offering the solution to this "problem" in the video. However, I do feel like you're exaggerating a little bit, with costing "a lot of time". In most cases, you would actually prefer the progressive slight release of the brakes as you bleed off, which would make you faster. And regarding realism, it might not be 100% realistic, but then again, there are also no external forces such as bumps on the road, affecting your leg/foot on the brake pedal as your whole body is shaking and the G forces under braking in the real car. So this minimal change of brake power under the "same" input and the irregularity is so minor that I don't think it should be stated as a shortcoming of the pedals, especially since there are way more issues in the software of the sims we love. With that being said, I respect your opinion and love your reviews. :)
Sure it won’t matter much for some corners but it is worth for everyone checking how there pedal performs as I have seen some elastomers doing really bad job 🙈
This problem will matter for long braking distances mostly and is important to have the full control instead .
But anyway, I have to point out this issue and people can decide if worth doing something about it or use it as it is 🤛
I like that the active pedals have gforce effect now that simulate the pedals coming to you during braking or moving away from you under acceleration.
@@-racingfan2014 wow, that’s crazy 💪
Man. I have an SRP Pedals. They use a completely different pneumatic system and it feels amazing. My driving went to the next level with those pedals.
I’ve been trying to create a video for them but I have a very busy life. I was hoping someone like yourself can review their pedals but unfortunately the company is too small to provide review samples to reviewers. Dan Suzuki made a great video about them
I believe you bro 🤛
I would love to test those !
This property of elastomers (hysteresis) is an essential ingredient and the reason why tyres generate grip. The delay in the return of the rubber to its original state due to a damping coefficient in the material. Optimal temperature window yields the most favourable damping coefficient of the elastomer and thus peak grip.
The main issue I have with pretty much every loadcell pedal set with rubbers (brake pedals mostly) is that if you want more force (applying more force to the pedal), this almost always comes at the cost of less pedal travel. I personally like a long pedal travel but with a decent amount of force with that and the Simucube Active pedal allows me to achieve this. I don't think I can go back to a traditional rubber brake pedal ever again.
Simtrecs seem like they can do that due to their Signal amplifying knob on the Brake pedal. At least as I understood it. you can Set up the Pedal with long trevel but tune the signal amplifying so that it's still hard to press.
I always preferred mixing elastomers with spring.... now I understand why. But then you try the simucube pedal, you adjust the muscular hard point to match around 80%... and boum everything become easy, consistent and brings so much confidence.
Those are next level man 💪
More just racing vids please? I enjoy them alot
I will try to do that Danny 🤛
You might not have an engineering qualification, but are most definitely an engineer! Nice video.
Thx for the compliment buddy 🍻
I always wondered why that always happened to me when I felt like I was holding it at the same position and pressure. Thanks so much for the fantastic scientific explanation! You did a great job of explaining it! I’m searching for springs to replace my elastomers already lol!
For long time I was thinking my muscle can’t hold but wen I test those bad elastomers year ago which ware drooling like more the 25% and sometimes from nowhere I was missing corners from my normal braking point bay large distance I realized is not me !
Wen I talk with people about this everyone is think the same way and blaming there feet but is not🙈
Now having both sensors on the same pedal I can clearly see what is happening and was the final prove I needed!
We where checking different guys telemetry mostly with HE Sprint pedals and we can clearly see that droop of the braking curve instantly after initial braking !
It depends from elastomer to elastomer but as much more we deform them in initial push that much more they relax later
Crazy that the drop off can be as much as 25% with some elastomers! It makes sense that the effect is magnified the more compression the material experiences. I can’t believe it’s not been noticed talked about and accounted for before now!!!
I personally use spring+Elastomer, but not for muscle memory, but to have feeling resembling real hydraulic brake
PS. Great Video, instant lilke and sub
Super cool! I really needed you to keep this a secret since your last video; now any competitive advantage I might go after is gone! lol. But in seriousness, have you stuck with the load cell after getting the hydraulic kit or are you using the angle sensor on your P1000's? The difference between the load cell and the Hall sensor response can probably be matched by adjusting the brake curve on one of them too, right (in case the load cell's response is preferrable)? Thanks again. Always a pleasure to watch these videos.
I found the way to feet the springs from the Cube Controls pedals inside the hydraulic system and honestly doesn’t feel much different then the elastomers !
I haven’t yet decided meager I prefer as the linear from the hall sensor is not bad but as you’ve said, curves can make them work equally! Must test that as well!
Thx for the suggestion bro 🍻
I bought some springs today to mix and match with my Heusinkveld sprints see how it goes a great shout by the way 😉
Let me know how it goes buddy and what springs have you got 🤛
@@chepilevskiof corse
wonderful - you should be a product designer,,,,
You are spot on.
Ah nooo 🙈 definitely not but I can look for weak spots and drive manufacturers crazy 🤣
@@chepilevski 😃
This is such an awesome video.
I would recommend that after watching the whole video, everyone jump to 10:23 and watch at 0.25x speed up through about 10:34. It's a clear visualization of the problem shown.
The pedal goes to the same spot, and the force from the foot is held constant; but the output is not constant. And it is **not** because the elastomer is worn out. It's an inherent problem with the material of the elastomer itself.
But doesn't this happen in a real racing as fluid gets hot, rotor gets hot and pad and tires give way ?
Ah no John , it is different thing
It definitely does happen in real race cars, though more because of hysteresis from the brake lines, rather than the other things mentioned. And yes, even with braided lines.
Great video. What are your thoughts on the Sim Magic P1000 pedals compared to the P2000 pedals. Is the price difference worth it
@frankvitucci6156 He's made a video about them in the last couple of videos just search his channel for p1000 full review then there's another video after about the hydraulic mod.
I have the p2000 and the p1000 inverted with the hydraulic mod. For me the brake on the p2000 feels much better bit sadly for me my knees couldn't handle those pedals even on a weak setting as I needed inverted. The hydraulics on the p2000 has a 2 stage feel and u feel much better progression also i prefer the way springs feel over the rubbers/elastomers on the p1000i.
The throttle on the p1000i is light but I love it and prefer it over the p2000.
The clutch feels a lot better imo too my p2000 which I have right next to me on another rig so I can do one for tests and the p2000 is scratchy and a hard feel at the end of the travel which in my opinion is not natural but the p1000 is smooth and doesn't have that hard metal feel at the end.
If I could get the feel of the brake on the p2000 on the p1000i or if the p2000s were inverted I'd go p2000 all day. The rumble motors I need more time with but I've heard their coming too the p2000s so...
Watch RBM videos too get a good idea for your self. For me pain in my knees was ruining my hobby so I will take a slightly worse brake over comfort of the inverted p1000i and having the haptic motors from day one as the p2000 getting them is just what everyone is saying online so I don't take as 100%.
Have any questions just ask 🙏
@@Simlife101 Thank you, I noticed that after I posted the comment
I prefer the P1000 as they are better tough design and in inverted position and haptic motors they are the pedals of the year in my opinion!
Do u ever heared about VRS DFP Pro pedals or Simgrade VX Pro? Both uses spring loaded brake pedal and feels amazing.
When I switched from modded Clubsport v1 pedals to my DIY stuff, I tried to use springs because I seen problem u mentioned in my CSPv1s.
Now I use 2x 30mm coil linear springs with ~40% compression. I tried to use 2 or 3 different springs but it I hated that braking in stages feel. I would like to have smooth progression but I don't think it's possible in HE like pedals without mechanics like u can find in VRS DFP pedals.
I feel pretty confident with linear spring brake. It's hard enought to not press 100% in panic situation.
I believe VRS have made they choice as those guys there are Pros and they wanted to have precise inputs!
I personally also don’t have problem with the linear feeling of spring compression 🤛
@@chepilevski how about spring and elastomer mix? Can spring reduce elastomer relaxation or it doesn't matter?
Have u seen Najam S120 pedals? They look sooo interesting (maybe except linear clutch).
I have a T-LCM set. These normally come with springs, but I installed DYI elastomers using some skateboard rubber bits + some sort of rubber washers. The pedals feel nice, but my consistency went down with it, good to know that I wasn't making hallucinating.
Switched over to 40x14mm springs. Green was my preference. Tan was the heaviest. Huge difference in the 50% and below feedback compared to elastomers. This is affecting the trail braking feeling.
I use a TLCM, I used the softest springs so that it just goes back to the zero pedal stroke, and washers so that it has direct pressure on the load cell once you hit the preferred stroke in relation to the throttle. This is a very consistent fix. I then tweak the gamma and and the stroke percentage to make the brake feel softer or harder.
I have a set of Fanatec CSL-ELITE V1 LC pedals. In stead of getting a new set of pedals, I am going to get a cheap drill press and some wood dowels. I'm going to replace the elastomer stack with the dowels and go with a 100% stiff brake pedal. For these pedals, the stiffer, the better. I tried them without the elastomers behind them, and they have better performance with no travel and dampening from the elastomers.
Another reason why I chose the VRS pedals. No elastomers no problems.
That’s true and I think that’s the reason those guys made that choice! They are all pro drivers there
So are you saying we should get rid of our load cell pedals and revert back to using our entry level hal effect sensor pedals?
Or stick with springs that give inferior feeling with our load cells?
I was about to purchase elastomers for my LC
Really great video, had no idea this problem existed. Will have to do some testing
Ah no man, my goal is to bring awareness and if some people use very bad elastomers can check for better ones or test springs on there kit 😃
Some elastomers are really bad and can fail with up to 20% 🙈
@chepilevski ah perfect! I get you. Definitely brings awareness.
It's just astonishing to me that no one is talking about this and the industry avoids this topic completely 🤯
Like I said, I will have to do some testing with the new elastomers vs springs vs position sensor once they arrive.
Thanks for your thoughts and response 🙏 👍 🙂
@@italdesign can’t wait to hear from you
Cracking video mate, I thought I was the only one scrathing their head over the way elastomers behaved under contant compression. When I built my DIY pedals I ended up mixing springs and elastomers to get the best of both worlds, preload spring at the top, elastomers in the middle and a softer spring at the bottom, you get a nice progressive repsonse from the brakes but the two spings seem to help compensate for the spiking you get during and holding the brake.
Yeh man 🙈 it took me long time to fully understand what is going on with all those pedals I’ve tested
@@chepilevski Yeah, I went through everything from grounding the pedals to adding ferrite cable shields, did nothing brake jumped all over the place in DIview. Added springs and that stopped. It's good to hear manufacturers are thinking about it too.
@@theoldgitwatgames4640 Hello my friend, is it possible that you can share an image and possible technical data of your combination ?? Currently I also have DIY pedals, I am satisfied with it but I still feel that the brake is not at the exact point.
I used a mix of 30mm compression springs and I think a 90 shore elastomer cut into 3 sections with washers in between. The springs were a mixed batch from I think 60nm to 100nm compression, and just tested until they felt how I wanted them to feel. Like a lot of things sim related the feel is subjective and needs a lot of fiddling and testing to get right. Hope that helps?
@@theoldgitwatgames4640 thx buddy 🤛
Wait, looking at the DIView graphs, my old G27 pedals set on half bit rate (128 steps) looks better... no wonder i don't really have an issue outbraking load cells friends if it looks like that for you.
There is definitely merits to LC and fiddling with rig in general, but if a rubber change gives 0.3s its on the driver improving due to a "change in system" not the hardware itself being objectively better, you guys are way overthinking it. Without g-forces pushing our body/leg onto the pedal trying to recreate "real life" brakes will easily reach force levels where stiffer = harder. So imho hardware change helped indirectly here by forcing a refresh on muscle memory (which inevitably drifts over time) . Especially since the relaxation/hysteresis effect should be helping braking not making it harder, as there are no less than 4 major mechanics that would prefer having stronger initial braking force that goes down with time during "perfect braking" (wheel inertia, tyre relaxation length, downforce and brake temperature)... which is also why no matter what even with "perfect" pedals it will be 100% down to muscle memory of a complex non linear motion to brake well. Switching rubber around is only small knob in a sea of variables.
But yeah, i do agree with the vid! It is a worthwile topic, but unless one is a real racing driver trying to help his real driving, it kind of still misses the forest for the trees.
Are there any ideas about the Fanatec CSP v3 and their behavior with the Performance Tuning Kit Elastomers ELADUR? Do they decrease in resistance too? Are there custom springs available as replacement? Thx!
Theory tested and confirmed on Fanatec CSL elite V2 pedals. With stock elastomers (blue preload spring, 65/75/85 elastomer stack) force drops from ~80% to ~70% over a couple sec. Using a 25mm diameter 35mm long blue die spring to replace the two softer elastomers, leaving the original preload spring/elastomer and one hard 85 shore elastomer, now input only drops by 1-2%.
It’s a little too much travel for my liking so I’ll be messing around with different springs to get the feel I want but the theory is there. Way less force drop than before but still a tiny bit due to still using some elastomers in the stack. I’ll keep updating with what combination I end up being happy with.
1-2% is actually great result man 😃
@@chepilevski Man honestly I’m so glad you’ve brought this to the attention of the community! It’s actually a huge difference in consistency that can not be over stated. I can brake later into corners now because I’m actually staying at full braking pressure throughout the whole braking zone! It’s crazy it’s gone unnoticed for so long! We all were blaming ourselves!
Main problem of pedals for years, that 90% of enthusiasts don't have load-cell pedals.
Real problem - in real life brakes fade, overheat under pressure and while jumping around and stepping on pedal drive does not have to mind angle precision. Solution is simple and elegant - soon for many manufacturers ;) (ffb)
Very interesting buddy. I have a question about it. Is a system like the BJ hydraulic pedals, where the sensor is positioned well above the elastomer, more protected from this kind of problems compared to the system of the Heusinkveld Ultimate + pedals, where the load cell reads the elastomer directly? (I hope I make sense...)
Anyone ever try replacing standard elastomers with high-performance materials that have better long-term compression set characteristics and higher resistance to stress relaxation? Materials like high-grade silicone or advanced polyurethanes are known for their durability and stability under stress.
This drop off really messes up trail braking on my CSL-ELITE V1 pedals. I have to get a better set of pedals anyways, but I do want to swap out the elastomers with very stiff springs, but I cannot find springs that are as stiff as the 85 shore elastomers.
I wonder why mechanical based devices are still used like rubber or spring. For high end, perhaps some sompanies should use magnets and megnatic field electronically controlled through software. This will make the possibilities for perfecting the bread padel to infinite.
10:30 if you're using the "angle" sensor instead of the load cell. Aren't the pedals the same as a G29/G920 at that point?
Break pedals in cars are hydraulic circuits that also have springs.. you hardly get any feedback from hydraulic circuits, this whole thing about pedal feel in simracing is just absurd. The pedal mostly feel the same in the car, its breaking performance varies, but that's treated by the simulation, not the pedal itself.
watching this with 3 nerf bullets shoved into my g29 brake pedal 🥴
I've always been worried about this with elastomers, but since they're so commonly used and no one talked about it, I figured I was overthinking things and that it wasn't making a meaningful difference... it's interesting to find out my gut feeling was right all along. I am using a spring-based load cell set though, so I have not experienced braking with elastomers.
Excellent vídeo! Bought Simagic P2000 pedals = problem solved!
So here is an extreme example to see if I got what you're saying:
I pressed the brake pedal too hard, in fact I floored my brake pedal to the floor, my tyres lock up, I should release some load off my brake pedal but I won't bother, because I know the elastomers will get soften soon so my braking force will weaken, hence my tyres will soon start rotating again.
I see this problem when i made an esport so ihad a csl at potenziometer. Now for enjoy i have a p2000 with sfx100 and this problem is not present to the brake pedal. With spring, the signal is perfect.
I mean thats all good and right but i still dont see the problem. I can feel in my wheel how much grip i have and how much i can brake. After my initial braking i modulate the brakes anyway so it really doesnt matter, you should feel in your wheel when your intial braking power goes down and then you start correcting for that, its the same as when you get more or less grip, you correct for that with more or less brake pressure
Because your brain does not only use your brake pressure as "input signal", your brain also uses informations the wheel gives you like how much is my wheel loading up or how much rotation is induced.
Finally someone raised this issue. And I actually did just that, I got Simforge mk1 pedals, which are amazing for the price, and asked for a better set of springs and elastomers - and the manufacturer listened!
I love when manufacturers listen the community 💪
Adding real car hydraulic pump solved a problem for me. I have master and slave cylinder and I measure pressure at the slave cylinder that is adapted from car hydraulic clutch slave cylinder why bother with anything else when solution is there for 50years or more in car industry
For those who are in the market for a new set of pedals, are we going VRS, Simgrade VX-Pro, P1000 using hall sensor....are there other cheaper options that use either springs or a hall sensor/load cell? Thanks a lot!
I’m in a process testing those here which are the most affordable if you are willing to assemble yourself and if you want them ready will cost bit more .
www.najam-simtec.de/p/s120-pedals
Sim peddles are so overpriced it’s not even funny. It’d be cheaper to just come up with an actual hydraulic brake pedal system from a scrap yard and hook the one master cylinder up to the load cell. Thousands of dollars for a few cents of urethane is criminal
I was wondering if it was me not keeping the constant pressure. I press 80 and it hold for a half second then drops off about 15%. i mean I love my H's but I think i need to look into springs. Do you have a supplier you deal with for springs?
Many think that exactly who have realized that phenomenon including me at some point!
I don’t have know any good suppliers and that’s why I ask every company to develop springs mod for their pedals buddy!
Hope someone will pop up with good suggestions for springs here in the comments 🤛
I usually test with springs from ther pedestals I have around
I get so bothered by my brake n gas, i have entry-level equipment and chopped up a stress ball to shove into the little cavity to get some sort of resistance, without them its basically just an on off switch.. lol.. stuff just cost so much in Canadian $$$ lol
I made my DIY brake pedal that measures hydraulic pressure in a master cylinder. I belive that this solves the rubbers problem. I dont bleed the cylinder perfectly so a bit of air in the system give a bit of travel and springines. I never researched how linear is air at displacment. I am aware that it will depend on ambient temeprature
true, the really high end pedals actually do away with elastomers and just use heavy duty springs. your muscle memory comes from trying to compress the spring and its more linear on release.
... Thousands of different pedal sets? How many thousands?
🤣🤣🤣
You don’t like exaggerating statements 🙈
@@chepilevski I figured you meant dozens, but found it too funny not to post 😁
@@blindobserver 🤣🤣🤣
Thousands or dozens, who cares… there must be at least 5 💪
I’m kidding 🤣
Have a good weekend buddy 🍻😁
Awesome videos! Thanks so much always for your great info. I have the Heusinkveld Ultimate+ pedals, but still find the brake pedal to have an “unnatural feel”. Which pedals do you recommend to get as of right now? (Around $1500 budget). The P1000’s? Thanks if you can respond
Hey buddy, thanks for the kind words and support 🍻
The budget you have is really big !
I can tell you why I choose to race with the P1000 as main pedals set !
For IRacing particularly, the haptic motors are my first reason as they completely change my driving/braking habits and I realize every car even in the same class activate ABS at different stage and also helps enormously in the trail brake process!
In feeling the hydraulic system is sweet too but the feeling is not what I really care much but comfort operating each pedal and the inverted model really makes big difference for me as I’ve changed the way I push the pedals ! Now my heal has is down and support my movements which helps precision and there is zero fatigue after hours driving !
The haptic motors also are supported from SimHub last version with many effects which I haven’t tested yet but is cool to have that as well !
Those are the pedals many of my friends got after hearing my impressions and till now everyone who got them confirmed everything I felt which is very good sign and not just my personal observation!
If you go that route I would love to hear your impressions and hopefully you will feel like us 🤛
Have u thought about SRP pedals?
@@chepilevskiAwesome! Thanks so much for your reply. Again, amazing channel and all the work you do👌🏼💯
@@domenicofranco6246 Thanks also for your reply. Definitely will take a look at those ones as well🤙🏼
Is no one using disc springs? You could approximate an elastomer spring characteristic by stacking them in different ways.
Mate i'm so exited ! This week i'm gettin paid and i will purshace my P1000 or P2000 idk still but anyway it's time let's gooooo !
Those are existing time bro 🤩💪
Instead of just learning about elastomer, spring and dampers, now I have to stress about elastomer relaxation and active feedback. 😰
Pedals used to be so simple, buy midrange Fanatec and upgrade to Heusinkveld when I can afford/justify it.
Sorry man 🙈
Great vid thx. Now I know why my G27 pedals are wonkey during those hard sessions!