It would be interesting seeing the two armies fight in a normal looking total war battle, seeing the result, and then seeing how they perform in the box formation
Yeah I did do that in a previous video or 2, seeing the comparison is pretty interesting. I'll see about doing that a bit more, just takes a lot more time lol
If, one of these days, you ever want to try and make one of these videos for a melee focused faction, I'd love to see you recreate Shaka's infamous Bull's Horns formation. I figure it could be a good starting out point for learning how to play Skirmish/Ambush factions like the Beastmen, Norsca, or Slaanesh. Hell, with the Beastmen, you'd be using actual, literal Bulls Horns to charge down the enemy.
Hey bud yeah that's definitely on the cards! I was wondering what race to try it out with too but I love your suggestion of the Beastmen, using actual Bulls is just too good haha cheers!
Cheers brother! Hopefully my stuff can get out to more and more people! I really appreciate the sentiment though thank you so much :) and yeah! It's been really eye-opening for me seeing how this stuff can actually work, and even pretty effectively too. Can't wait to find out more!
These historical tactics in warhammer videos are my favorite. I thinking grounding fantasy in reality makes the fantasy even better. Keep these coming!
I love these historic videos, love learning about the military history and the practical applications of such formations, gives me the edge in my battles, I was hoping you’d do some more “classical” formations and tactics, for those of us who prefer the bow and blade to lead and fire
I think formations are more important for gunpowder armies, because they shoot straight, and you can't arc your fire over the infantry like you can with bows and crossbows. Any formation you use for gunpowder can be used with bows and such.
@@shorewall so, armies without gun powder weapons don’t need formations? Just line up and get to work? Or are you just saying that those formations aren’t worth knowing about? Or maybe you’re suggesting that they didn’t use formations, they weren’t needed and therefore never used until the invention of the gun?
@@hades_deathgod9496 I think he means put your forces into a checker board or put your archers behind your melee and send it because that was the stock formation.
@@Deadwarrior000 I’m just trying to do something different and keep things interesting while also giving and edge to those armies, I don’t often have the time to research things like that myself. My biggest issue that that TWW is some of the technically worse total wars when it comes to battles, it’s super dry and basic, in the previous historical titles there were many formations like squares, phalanxes, testudo etc and grouping formations that you could set up your units, in rome 1 the units actually use to make way for other units passing through, there was a lot more depth to the battles that I’m trying to regain through use of real world tactics
@Hades_DeathGod9 you sound kind of entitled with the "I don't often have time to do it myself" bit. Just research a little on your own when you can. Hell buy a copy of the Art of War and read it. It's a good read.
i like that the faction you have choose to represent Napoleon is the Chaos Dwarfs, if ask me what emperor someone would call a chaotic dwarf that imperior will be Napoleon
The square straight up is a nice touch. I’ve tried various attempts at squares that end up being more pike and shot like using handgunners and volley guns with imperial halberds but if the line folds the units hold fire. Gonna have to Chaos Dwarves. Looks fun
After the front two squares became engaged, I’m wondering if the center square could have moved up through the large gap between the front squares, inverting the overall formation to be in a better position to support the front corners being attacked. The Overhead replay gave me the idea.
Mathematically it's a terrible idea to have units sitting around doing nothing, it's horribly inefficient. Following the ABC of gaming (always be casting), every unit should always actively fulfill some kind of purpose. Standing around to get a few potshots in and protect a cannon isn't very efficient. So I think a repositioning of the square would have been very helpful in alleviating stress for the front two squares since the AI isn't smart enough to attack it when it moves.
Man I didn't think to do that. Like at all. But I absolutely love that idea! It'd look so cool too! Admittedly this was very much a "sit back and watch" kinda battle but I'm definitely gonna try that out in future. Cheers bro!
Btw, I've found that the unit model of the magma cannon is tall enough to still fire over the heads of infantry that's immediately in front of it, even with its flat arc. I find that the magma cannon is generally much more useful in field battles where this army comp would excel at.
Ohhh that is good to know! I was wondering about that since its mounted up on its carriage or whatever. I didn't think I was gonna like Magma Cannons as much as I do haha cheers bud!
Love to see it! Looking forward for when you demonstrate with the Empire, Kislev, and/or Cathay. For artillery support I suspect Kislev will do the worst, though on the campaign map that can alleviated by getting Imperial or Cathayan arty with alliances. For the line infantry themselves though, I think Kislev might be in the best spot since all their shooters are hybrid infantry. Since Handgunners don’t have a bayonet equivalent, Iron Hail Gunners have damage but no bayonet and reduced range, and Crane Gunners have, again, no bayonet equivalent, less numbers and lower mass. If you stick with 3 squares instead of modifying them with archers/crossbows inside the squares I have an idea for arty for the Empire. A good option would probably be mortars in the front squares, and helblasters or field guns in the rear square. Cathay and Kislev are of course more limited on the battle map. Looking forward to more!
Yeah it's going to be interesting to see how they work out with this, I worry that they won't have enough damage or staying power. Infantry wise I definitely agree Kislev would be in a better place than Empire or Cathay since their Streltsi at least have some armour and melee damage. I think integrating the artillery into the firing lines may be the best bet, leaving them a little gap or something to shoot through. Cheers bro thanks for the ideas!
Haha it's really interesting applying them to the Warhammer Fantasy universe! Lucky for all those ancient soldiers they didn't have to deal with Orcs and Dragons!
Looks like the formation is impressively simple, but effective. I'd probably suggest (if you were playing objectively) use the artillery to support the other squares rather than their own (as they went silent once the enemy got in too close). Might be worth testing that before swapping out the Hellcannons.
Thanks bro and yeah I definitely agree with you, I love the simplicity in setting this up. I often don't bother using Chevrons formations just purely because setting it up can be a pain at times haha. And yeah getting the Hellcannons to fire across to the other squares would have been a much better use of them lmao honestly I don't even think I noticed they had stopped firing I was just kinda observing everything else. Cheers bud thanks for the advice I'll have to try it out again properly for sure!
there's actually 2 lesser known historical pike and shot formations aside from the 3 main. technically one is a variation of the tercio and the other was an improved dutch battalion the dutch battalion system was ineffective in practice as the pikes failed to protect the guns. what they did was they placed the guns behind the pikes and only one row of guns would move in front to fire at a time. the spanish at at least one point deployed what some called the bastioned tercio (since it resembled the defensive bastions of a castle). this was used when the army had a higher ratio of guns to pikes. there was additional muskets on the flanks of the tercio (resembling a chonky dutch battalion with a tercio center). behind those muskets they placed cavalry for protection in what is sometimes referred to as "German style". only reference I found was them using this at the battle of White Mountain both served as inspirations for my Olio
Attacking the corners of a square is something every opponent seems to intrinsically understand as the corners are the spots where they will encounter the least withering fire. Even the Fuzzy Wuzzy Beja warriors of Sudan knew this when they tried to break British squares during the Anglo-Sudan war. You should definitely look into this conflict especially during the first phase when the British tried to rescue General Charles Gordon who was besieged in Khartoum. It's full of battles pitting outnumbered British squares against hordes of Fuzzy Wuzzy warriors on foot charging headlong with spears and swords into withering British rifle fire.
Lol I had assumed Fuzzy Wuzzy was some kind of typo but looked it up. Learn something new every day haha! I'll definitely look into that, seems very reminiscent of the Zulu conflicts. Cheers bud!
Haha bro from the second I saw the Ironglaives in the trailer I had ideas running through my head! I'd be lying if I said I wasn't looking forward to this haha Cheers Boomerix!
The fireglaive are really a good and versatile unit, but I would agree that the hellcanons aren't a good choice. Magma cannons are really good agaisnt infantry, and the doomshrieker rocket isn't bad if you really want indirect fire
I have learned in my experiments with pike and shot that artillery are too dangerous once it closes to melee. The exception is if you have mutually reinforcing positions that can shoot at each others position. And aiming at the ground lets you target areas near the enemy, but far enough away from your troops to keep them out of harms way.
Yeah I've been really impressed with the Magma Cannons, though a little underwhelmed with the Deathshrieker tbh. Still, it probably would be decent in something like this. I just gotta get those Dreadquakes under control haha
Yeah that'd have been neat, I just didn't wanna bloat the time though. The AI is good at flanking with cavalry though I wouldn't be surprised if they ended up surrounding a checkerboard
I wonder if you would have recived a better or different result if you pushed your center square forward and those flanking squares further back. AI Cav loves their flank, and thus I assume that center square would have had more coverege on both sides and thus putting in more work. :)
Yeah I never thought to do that at all during this but that would have looked so cool and you're right it would have been really effective! I'll have to try that out when I can
i like all your videos on gunpowder in Total War Warhammer 3. Im trying to figure out how I can do these formations with lizardmen. I am thinking I would need to use salamanders and/or razordons as my gun powder units and ancient salamander or solar engines or stegadons as my artillery. Saurus spears or Temple guard as the halberdiers.
That seems about right I'd say, but also you can make use of Chameleon Skinks as a fantastic Skirmisher screen to mess with your opponent before the lines start engaging.
Absolutely! In fact it sounds similar to the Viking Boar's Head formation as well, I've been meaning to cover that for a while, I'll definitely look into it thanks brother!
Oh for sure! One could probably pull off something similar early game with Blunderbussies (oh god... haha) but luckily once you get your economy going something like this isn't too far out of reach. At least for one army anyways, equipping multiple armies like this... better get those labourers whipped into shape!
An Infantry square would work really well with regular Dwarfs as well, I just don't think you could pull off pure Thunderers though like how the Chaos Dwarfs can do pure Fireglaives. Some Organ Guns and Grudgethrowers would be great in the squares though, you'd have to make a small gap in the front for the Organ Gun to shoot through while the Grudgethrower can lob shots over. As long as the enemy Cav can't charge through your lines it should be good.
If there are enemy units within their line of sight and fire arc they'll shoot automatically when on Guard Mode. It just prevents them from chasing after their target when they're out of range and let's the back ranks of the unit shoot when engaged in combat. Otherwise though you'll have to manually move the units so they can see their target
These square, rigid, formations work really well in conventional warfare, but in my experience, good use of magic really punishes them. Winds spells, like Winds of Death or Burning Head, can shred entire front lines, especially if they're cheap like base spearmen. Wide AOE like Soul Eater or Heart of Winter would single-handedly brutalize the squares in this video. Final Transmutation would be devastating, too. That's why formations tend to be really spread out and staggered in multiplayer. Are there any kinds of historical formations for that kind of irregular battle line? Something skirmish heavy, or geared towards guerilla combat, maybe?
Yeah magic can definitely be a problem, it's certainly not anything that had to be considered in real life, it's an interesting thing to deal with in game. I'll have to look into a more skirmish focused irregular battle line that'd be really cool! Cheers bud!
@@MalleusGaming57 Haha, for sure, there were no Napoleonic commanders wondering, "Sir, what if he brought Wind Blast? Our formations are too tightly packed!" Come to think of it, isn't Heart of Winter what did Napoleon in during the invasion of Russia?
The Infernal Guard with Fireglaives is just an OP unit. Even more OP than the Kislev Streltsi. It is basically a Dwarven Longbeard, mixed with a Dwarven Thunderer. Dwarven Infantry is pathologically tough, and if you are looking for a good anvil, I don't think there are many better. I generally don't like complete box armies though, because for what you gain in 360 degree defense, you lose in power at the point of attack. It's hard to gauge, because IRL communication lag limited the maneuvers you could pull off. Then again, Total War limiting you to 20 units including your Single Entity General also puts constraints on what you can do with your army. The best I've been able to do is have multiple armies to get the proper proportions, but in game you ideally want each army to be self contained and modular, more like a Roman Legion.
Yeah bro as much as I love them they do seem pretty crazy. Though that's part of the reason why I love them haha. I think with something like this, and it's something I'll have to practice with, it'd be best to deploy them in a checkerboard line but then re-deploy into a square when threatened. That way you can maximize your firepower for as long as possible before turtling up. Then when the threats gone you can break the square. Just will take some good timing
It would definitely work, I don't think they'd be able to stand against an all Knight army like this one because the Seaguard lack armour piercing, but they would definitely be able to hold up against more normal armies
Honestly I'm not too sure. It could probably work out well against certain armies but Empire Handgunners just don't have staying power. If Cavalry charges an Empire Handgunner Square they're just gonna plow right through them. It would be really cool though, it's something that'll need testing. And thanks bro glad you enjoyed it!
Interesting historical fact. Napoleon lost so many horses in his Russian retreat that he did not have enough cavalry in 1813. He lost, was exiled to Alba, which lead to the failure at Waterloo.
@@MalleusGaming57 Some believe it effected the 1813 outcome. Looks like France’s horses recovered after Waterloo. One of my friends that really studied him said Waterloo was lost because his general that could interpret his orders was thrown out a window and assassinated. One noted problem at Waterloo was miscommunication between Napoleon and his generals.
Absolutely, man I don't think I even realized they stopped firing haha but that's a very good idea, letting them do some mutual support. Cheers bro thank you!
Cool ! But I think hellcannons don't damage own troops, don't they ? I agree Magma cannons would do better as they're quite accurate A castellan would have helped the arty as well Think the rear square is kinda wasteful, maybe only putting 2 inf units, a Castellan and the 3 guns at the rear would have helped
I have no idea if that's the case, the only artillery I can think of that doesn't is that Empire Mortar RoR. Haha funny you mention the Castellan, I did a few test battles figuring this out and in one I forgot to put the Castellan on guard and he ran out of his square chasing some knights. You ever see HBO's Rome? Had some serious "Pullo! Get back in formation!" vibes going on haha I think the back square could probably have been used better, I could have collapsed it way earlier and split it to help the front 2 squares. I do like the idea of putting the big guns there, my only concern is that it then becomes a target for the enemy. But hey that's something that can always be tested out. Cheers bro!
So when I was testing it out I first had it against a mixed Infantry/Cavalry Bretonnian army. So while yes its just Bretonnian infantry but they got absolutely slaughtered. It was way more one sided than the battle in this vid. I'll have to try it out against more powerful infantry but I feel like it'd do pretty well
*laughs in croissant* funny seeing a napoleon tactic/formation pop up as I just got done abusing the AI with an oblique order formation. the classics never die out
@@MalleusGaming57 fire glaive doomstack is basically the warhammer equivalent of shogun 2's Portuguese Tercos doomstack. heavily armored top tier gun unit with stupid melee stats.
Man I really need to play through Shogun 2, I love The Last Samurai and I know it covers that period. I also wanna try this out with Streltsi, although they'll be more vulnerable to cavalry
@@MalleusGaming57 great movie. inaccurate but still great strongly recommend. shogun 2 as well as the fall of the samurai dlc are two of the best total war titles vanilla shogun 2 cover the edo (warring states) period and is ripe for pike and shot tactics. it's actually the meta in multiplayer fall of the samurai covers the 1860s/70s so it's mostly line formations but melee still plays a part also, the difference in artillery between games is crazy shogun 2 artillery is worthless (except fire rockets) fall of the samurai artillery is beyond overpowered (except wooden cannons). in fots, I have yet to fight a battle where my cannons got less than 200 kills each. disgusting.
Yeah I've been wanting to try this same style out with Streltsi, they lack the anti-large so it'll be interesting to see how they work out, I wonder if their melee stats will help with that
Magma cannons might not be great in this formation, they have a rather low projectile arc and once the cavalry hits your formation you'll be hard pressed to fire the cannon without taking collateral damage.
Yeah with magma cannons it may be better to leave a gap in the front line for them to shoot through. Either that or use Deathshriekers. I still really want Dreadquakes though, gotta figure out why they misbehave so much lol
It would be interesting seeing the two armies fight in a normal looking total war battle, seeing the result, and then seeing how they perform in the box formation
Yeah I did do that in a previous video or 2, seeing the comparison is pretty interesting. I'll see about doing that a bit more, just takes a lot more time lol
Well.. The problem with historical lineups is that they don't account for spells, nukes, and a 12 meters flying demon.
If, one of these days, you ever want to try and make one of these videos for a melee focused faction, I'd love to see you recreate Shaka's infamous Bull's Horns formation. I figure it could be a good starting out point for learning how to play Skirmish/Ambush factions like the Beastmen, Norsca, or Slaanesh. Hell, with the Beastmen, you'd be using actual, literal Bulls Horns to charge down the enemy.
Hey bud yeah that's definitely on the cards! I was wondering what race to try it out with too but I love your suggestion of the Beastmen, using actual Bulls is just too good haha cheers!
The video has been made and it's glorious!
Your videos are so underrated. It's so fascinating to see how historical military formations could be applied to a total war game lol
Cheers brother! Hopefully my stuff can get out to more and more people! I really appreciate the sentiment though thank you so much :) and yeah! It's been really eye-opening for me seeing how this stuff can actually work, and even pretty effectively too. Can't wait to find out more!
Testing out Napoleonic tactic using one of the short races. I'm sure we all see the humor here.
These historical tactics in warhammer videos are my favorite. I thinking grounding fantasy in reality makes the fantasy even better. Keep these coming!
Oh I absolutely agree with having grounding elements in fantasy settings. Having some "realism" just enhances everything overall. Cheers bud!
I love these historic videos, love learning about the military history and the practical applications of such formations, gives me the edge in my battles, I was hoping you’d do some more “classical” formations and tactics, for those of us who prefer the bow and blade to lead and fire
I think formations are more important for gunpowder armies, because they shoot straight, and you can't arc your fire over the infantry like you can with bows and crossbows. Any formation you use for gunpowder can be used with bows and such.
@@shorewall so, armies without gun powder weapons don’t need formations? Just line up and get to work? Or are you just saying that those formations aren’t worth knowing about? Or maybe you’re suggesting that they didn’t use formations, they weren’t needed and therefore never used until the invention of the gun?
@@hades_deathgod9496 I think he means put your forces into a checker board or put your archers behind your melee and send it because that was the stock formation.
@@Deadwarrior000 I’m just trying to do something different and keep things interesting while also giving and edge to those armies, I don’t often have the time to research things like that myself. My biggest issue that that TWW is some of the technically worse total wars when it comes to battles, it’s super dry and basic, in the previous historical titles there were many formations like squares, phalanxes, testudo etc and grouping formations that you could set up your units, in rome 1 the units actually use to make way for other units passing through, there was a lot more depth to the battles that I’m trying to regain through use of real world tactics
@Hades_DeathGod9 you sound kind of entitled with the "I don't often have time to do it myself" bit. Just research a little on your own when you can. Hell buy a copy of the Art of War and read it. It's a good read.
Man I love this series! Just discovered your channel from the Checkerboard Formation video and instantly subbed.
Thanks so much brother! Glad you've been enjoying it! Cheers bud I really appreciate it
6:20 "SHORT?!?"
Haha I wonder if Chaos Dwarfs have a Book of Grudges equivalent
i like that the faction you have choose to represent Napoleon is the Chaos Dwarfs, if ask me what emperor someone would call a chaotic dwarf that imperior will be Napoleon
Lmao I was thinking of that but it was mainly because they have that sweet Anti-Large Rifle unit
Quality video. Would love to see more like it! 👍
Cheers bro thanks so much! I've definitely got more planned for the future
I think the main issue is that the horses don't have the desire to not run into bayonets like irl but overall worked well
Lmao yeah these Total War horses dgaf! Crazy sods!
finally, someone to teach me actual tactics and history AT THE SAME TIME. now i can find tactics interesting enough to actually remember lmao
Haha cheers glad you enjoyed the vid!
The square straight up is a nice touch. I’ve tried various attempts at squares that end up being more pike and shot like using handgunners and volley guns with imperial halberds but if the line folds the units hold fire. Gonna have to Chaos Dwarves. Looks fun
After the front two squares became engaged, I’m wondering if the center square could have moved up through the large gap between the front squares, inverting the overall formation to be in a better position to support the front corners being attacked. The Overhead replay gave me the idea.
Mathematically it's a terrible idea to have units sitting around doing nothing, it's horribly inefficient. Following the ABC of gaming (always be casting), every unit should always actively fulfill some kind of purpose. Standing around to get a few potshots in and protect a cannon isn't very efficient. So I think a repositioning of the square would have been very helpful in alleviating stress for the front two squares since the AI isn't smart enough to attack it when it moves.
Man I didn't think to do that. Like at all. But I absolutely love that idea! It'd look so cool too! Admittedly this was very much a "sit back and watch" kinda battle but I'm definitely gonna try that out in future. Cheers bro!
Btw, I've found that the unit model of the magma cannon is tall enough to still fire over the heads of infantry that's immediately in front of it, even with its flat arc. I find that the magma cannon is generally much more useful in field battles where this army comp would excel at.
Ohhh that is good to know! I was wondering about that since its mounted up on its carriage or whatever. I didn't think I was gonna like Magma Cannons as much as I do haha cheers bud!
Wow IRL lore + Warhammer Application is definitely my peanut butter and honey!
Haha cheers bro glad you enjoyed this! I love adapting all these real life tactics it's amazing how they can work so well in game
Love to see it! Looking forward for when you demonstrate with the Empire, Kislev, and/or Cathay.
For artillery support I suspect Kislev will do the worst, though on the campaign map that can alleviated by getting Imperial or Cathayan arty with alliances.
For the line infantry themselves though, I think Kislev might be in the best spot since all their shooters are hybrid infantry. Since Handgunners don’t have a bayonet equivalent, Iron Hail Gunners have damage but no bayonet and reduced range, and Crane Gunners have, again, no bayonet equivalent, less numbers and lower mass.
If you stick with 3 squares instead of modifying them with archers/crossbows inside the squares I have an idea for arty for the Empire.
A good option would probably be mortars in the front squares, and helblasters or field guns in the rear square.
Cathay and Kislev are of course more limited on the battle map.
Looking forward to more!
Yeah it's going to be interesting to see how they work out with this, I worry that they won't have enough damage or staying power. Infantry wise I definitely agree Kislev would be in a better place than Empire or Cathay since their Streltsi at least have some armour and melee damage. I think integrating the artillery into the firing lines may be the best bet, leaving them a little gap or something to shoot through. Cheers bro thanks for the ideas!
Good good like seeing real world tactics used in fantastic universe
Haha it's really interesting applying them to the Warhammer Fantasy universe! Lucky for all those ancient soldiers they didn't have to deal with Orcs and Dragons!
Looks like the formation is impressively simple, but effective. I'd probably suggest (if you were playing objectively) use the artillery to support the other squares rather than their own (as they went silent once the enemy got in too close). Might be worth testing that before swapping out the Hellcannons.
Thanks bro and yeah I definitely agree with you, I love the simplicity in setting this up. I often don't bother using Chevrons formations just purely because setting it up can be a pain at times haha. And yeah getting the Hellcannons to fire across to the other squares would have been a much better use of them lmao honestly I don't even think I noticed they had stopped firing I was just kinda observing everything else. Cheers bud thanks for the advice I'll have to try it out again properly for sure!
there's actually 2 lesser known historical pike and shot formations aside from the 3 main. technically one is a variation of the tercio and the other was an improved dutch battalion
the dutch battalion system was ineffective in practice as the pikes failed to protect the guns. what they did was they placed the guns behind the pikes and only one row of guns would move in front to fire at a time.
the spanish at at least one point deployed what some called the bastioned tercio (since it resembled the defensive bastions of a castle). this was used when the army had a higher ratio of guns to pikes. there was additional muskets on the flanks of the tercio (resembling a chonky dutch battalion with a tercio center). behind those muskets they placed cavalry for protection in what is sometimes referred to as "German style". only reference I found was them using this at the battle of White Mountain
both served as inspirations for my Olio
oh god more pike and shot formations! haha thanks brother I saved this and added it to my notes for the Olio!
@@MalleusGaming57 no problem
Attacking the corners of a square is something every opponent seems to intrinsically understand as the corners are the spots where they will encounter the least withering fire. Even the Fuzzy Wuzzy Beja warriors of Sudan knew this when they tried to break British squares during the Anglo-Sudan war. You should definitely look into this conflict especially during the first phase when the British tried to rescue General Charles Gordon who was besieged in Khartoum. It's full of battles pitting outnumbered British squares against hordes of Fuzzy Wuzzy warriors on foot charging headlong with spears and swords into withering British rifle fire.
Lol I had assumed Fuzzy Wuzzy was some kind of typo but looked it up. Learn something new every day haha! I'll definitely look into that, seems very reminiscent of the Zulu conflicts. Cheers bud!
I knew it wouldn't take long until you'd start looking at tactics for a the Chorfs :)
Haha bro from the second I saw the Ironglaives in the trailer I had ideas running through my head! I'd be lying if I said I wasn't looking forward to this haha Cheers Boomerix!
The fireglaive are really a good and versatile unit, but I would agree that the hellcanons aren't a good choice. Magma cannons are really good agaisnt infantry, and the doomshrieker rocket isn't bad if you really want indirect fire
I have learned in my experiments with pike and shot that artillery are too dangerous once it closes to melee. The exception is if you have mutually reinforcing positions that can shoot at each others position.
And aiming at the ground lets you target areas near the enemy, but far enough away from your troops to keep them out of harms way.
Yeah I've been really impressed with the Magma Cannons, though a little underwhelmed with the Deathshrieker tbh. Still, it probably would be decent in something like this. I just gotta get those Dreadquakes under control haha
I did something similar with Cathay against Orks, but just had one square with multiple layers.
A comparison to a standard checkerboard formation would be interesting here.
Yeah that'd have been neat, I just didn't wanna bloat the time though. The AI is good at flanking with cavalry though I wouldn't be surprised if they ended up surrounding a checkerboard
Napoleon, and Chaos Dwarf. I don't think it's coincidence.
Lmao I was so close to putting the head of a Chaos Dwarf on Napoleon's body for the thumbnail
I wonder if you would have recived a better or different result if you pushed your center square forward and those flanking squares further back. AI Cav loves their flank, and thus I assume that center square would have had more coverege on both sides and thus putting in more work. :)
Yeah I never thought to do that at all during this but that would have looked so cool and you're right it would have been really effective! I'll have to try that out when I can
i like all your videos on gunpowder in Total War Warhammer 3. Im trying to figure out how I can do these formations with lizardmen. I am thinking I would need to use salamanders and/or razordons as my gun powder units and ancient salamander or solar engines or stegadons as my artillery. Saurus spears or Temple guard as the halberdiers.
That seems about right I'd say, but also you can make use of Chameleon Skinks as a fantastic Skirmisher screen to mess with your opponent before the lines start engaging.
Would you consider doing the Zulu horns of the bull formation?
Absolutely! In fact it sounds similar to the Viking Boar's Head formation as well, I've been meaning to cover that for a while, I'll definitely look into it thanks brother!
the one issue is that making that will take a while and be heavy on the armaments.
Oh for sure! One could probably pull off something similar early game with Blunderbussies (oh god... haha) but luckily once you get your economy going something like this isn't too far out of reach. At least for one army anyways, equipping multiple armies like this... better get those labourers whipped into shape!
@@MalleusGaming57
Fire up the forges! We're going to need to get the Factories expanding to meet the needs of our expanding factories.
Try to put the middle one forward instead of to the back. Probably gonna be more effective.
nice name for a Dawi Box, my man
A spicy Dawi box haha
What about the regular dwarfs organ guns in the squares perhaps some slayers as a second line?
An Infantry square would work really well with regular Dwarfs as well, I just don't think you could pull off pure Thunderers though like how the Chaos Dwarfs can do pure Fireglaives. Some Organ Guns and Grudgethrowers would be great in the squares though, you'd have to make a small gap in the front for the Organ Gun to shoot through while the Grudgethrower can lob shots over. As long as the enemy Cav can't charge through your lines it should be good.
do you have to tell the units to shoot or do they turn and fire where needed on guard mode?
If there are enemy units within their line of sight and fire arc they'll shoot automatically when on Guard Mode. It just prevents them from chasing after their target when they're out of range and let's the back ranks of the unit shoot when engaged in combat. Otherwise though you'll have to manually move the units so they can see their target
These square, rigid, formations work really well in conventional warfare, but in my experience, good use of magic really punishes them. Winds spells, like Winds of Death or Burning Head, can shred entire front lines, especially if they're cheap like base spearmen. Wide AOE like Soul Eater or Heart of Winter would single-handedly brutalize the squares in this video. Final Transmutation would be devastating, too. That's why formations tend to be really spread out and staggered in multiplayer.
Are there any kinds of historical formations for that kind of irregular battle line? Something skirmish heavy, or geared towards guerilla combat, maybe?
Yeah magic can definitely be a problem, it's certainly not anything that had to be considered in real life, it's an interesting thing to deal with in game. I'll have to look into a more skirmish focused irregular battle line that'd be really cool! Cheers bud!
@@MalleusGaming57 Haha, for sure, there were no Napoleonic commanders wondering, "Sir, what if he brought Wind Blast? Our formations are too tightly packed!"
Come to think of it, isn't Heart of Winter what did Napoleon in during the invasion of Russia?
Great video like always, nerd lvl, advanced ;)
lmao thanks so much brother! Soon I shall become an Ascended Nerd! haha cheers bud
Magma cannons. Then you put suppression and reload on gunners/blunderbuss you will never lose
Wait the gunners can get suppression in the armoury? Omg I must have missed that! I needs it precious!
The Infernal Guard with Fireglaives is just an OP unit. Even more OP than the Kislev Streltsi. It is basically a Dwarven Longbeard, mixed with a Dwarven Thunderer. Dwarven Infantry is pathologically tough, and if you are looking for a good anvil, I don't think there are many better.
I generally don't like complete box armies though, because for what you gain in 360 degree defense, you lose in power at the point of attack. It's hard to gauge, because IRL communication lag limited the maneuvers you could pull off. Then again, Total War limiting you to 20 units including your Single Entity General also puts constraints on what you can do with your army.
The best I've been able to do is have multiple armies to get the proper proportions, but in game you ideally want each army to be self contained and modular, more like a Roman Legion.
Yeah bro as much as I love them they do seem pretty crazy. Though that's part of the reason why I love them haha. I think with something like this, and it's something I'll have to practice with, it'd be best to deploy them in a checkerboard line but then re-deploy into a square when threatened. That way you can maximize your firepower for as long as possible before turtling up. Then when the threats gone you can break the square. Just will take some good timing
wonder if that would work with the high elves Lothern Seaguard?
It would definitely work, I don't think they'd be able to stand against an all Knight army like this one because the Seaguard lack armour piercing, but they would definitely be able to hold up against more normal armies
It is a very strong mismatch, the mostly shock cavalry army would be terrible against hybrid anti-large infantry of any kind
Gotta love counters!
Good job
Cheers bro thanks!
Do you think this would work for the Empire? Great vid!
Honestly I'm not too sure. It could probably work out well against certain armies but Empire Handgunners just don't have staying power. If Cavalry charges an Empire Handgunner Square they're just gonna plow right through them. It would be really cool though, it's something that'll need testing. And thanks bro glad you enjoyed it!
I don't know how the AI pulls their calv out so effortlessly looking to recharge. Mine practically crawl out lol
Lmao bro the AI is so op with its cavalry and skirmisher micro its ridiculous, good thing we're smarter. For now lol
Interesting historical fact. Napoleon lost so many horses in his Russian retreat that he did not have enough cavalry in 1813. He lost, was exiled to Alba, which lead to the failure at Waterloo.
Ohh interesting! I had no idea he a lack of Cavalry, wonder if that would have changed things significantly had he not lost so many
@@MalleusGaming57 Some believe it effected the 1813 outcome. Looks like France’s horses recovered after Waterloo. One of my friends that really studied him said Waterloo was lost because his general that could interpret his orders was thrown out a window and assassinated. One noted problem at Waterloo was miscommunication between Napoleon and his generals.
Before Waterloo, not after
You should have made the right cannon face left and the left one face right
Absolutely, man I don't think I even realized they stopped firing haha but that's a very good idea, letting them do some mutual support. Cheers bro thank you!
@@MalleusGaming57 no problem, love your videos! Keep them coming
I wanna see some 18th and early 19th century tactics
That'll be really cool! I'll have to look up more and see what can be done, you have any suggestions bud?
@@MalleusGaming57 to be honest I don’t know. I’ve learned about the tactics you have discussed just from watching your videos.
Cool ! But I think hellcannons don't damage own troops, don't they ? I agree Magma cannons would do better as they're quite accurate
A castellan would have helped the arty as well
Think the rear square is kinda wasteful, maybe only putting 2 inf units, a Castellan and the 3 guns at the rear would have helped
I have no idea if that's the case, the only artillery I can think of that doesn't is that Empire Mortar RoR. Haha funny you mention the Castellan, I did a few test battles figuring this out and in one I forgot to put the Castellan on guard and he ran out of his square chasing some knights. You ever see HBO's Rome? Had some serious "Pullo! Get back in formation!" vibes going on haha
I think the back square could probably have been used better, I could have collapsed it way earlier and split it to help the front 2 squares. I do like the idea of putting the big guns there, my only concern is that it then becomes a target for the enemy. But hey that's something that can always be tested out. Cheers bro!
Great
Thanks a lot bud!
I wonder how it would go against infantry
So when I was testing it out I first had it against a mixed Infantry/Cavalry Bretonnian army. So while yes its just Bretonnian infantry but they got absolutely slaughtered. It was way more one sided than the battle in this vid. I'll have to try it out against more powerful infantry but I feel like it'd do pretty well
@@MalleusGaming57 okay, thank you
These videos are dowpe!
Thanks so much bro! Glad you've been enjoying them!
*laughs in croissant*
funny seeing a napoleon tactic/formation pop up as I just got done abusing the AI with an oblique order formation. the classics never die out
Hon hon hon! it's funny how things line up sometimes isn't it? I love how they're still useful even in this game! Cheers bro!
@@MalleusGaming57 fire glaive doomstack is basically the warhammer equivalent of shogun 2's Portuguese Tercos doomstack. heavily armored top tier gun unit with stupid melee stats.
Man I really need to play through Shogun 2, I love The Last Samurai and I know it covers that period. I also wanna try this out with Streltsi, although they'll be more vulnerable to cavalry
@@MalleusGaming57 great movie. inaccurate but still great
strongly recommend. shogun 2 as well as the fall of the samurai dlc are two of the best total war titles
vanilla shogun 2 cover the edo (warring states) period and is ripe for pike and shot tactics. it's actually the meta in multiplayer
fall of the samurai covers the 1860s/70s so it's mostly line formations but melee still plays a part
also, the difference in artillery between games is crazy
shogun 2 artillery is worthless (except fire rockets)
fall of the samurai artillery is beyond overpowered (except wooden cannons). in fots, I have yet to fight a battle where my cannons got less than 200 kills each. disgusting.
Kislev also had a similar / same unit but hybrid units kinda suck and confusing. All (most) Kislev units are hybrid and they excel in none.
Yeah I've been wanting to try this same style out with Streltsi, they lack the anti-large so it'll be interesting to see how they work out, I wonder if their melee stats will help with that
Magma cannons might not be great in this formation, they have a rather low projectile arc and once the cavalry hits your formation you'll be hard pressed to fire the cannon without taking collateral damage.
Yeah with magma cannons it may be better to leave a gap in the front line for them to shoot through. Either that or use Deathshriekers. I still really want Dreadquakes though, gotta figure out why they misbehave so much lol
Well duh Bretonnia is one of the faction that needs the most a remake as their units are completely outdated while the chaos dwarf are the latest ones
They do have the best cav tho
Yeahhh those Grail Knights ain't no joke! Plus their airforce units are pretty badass too
THINK OF ENGLAND! THINK OF ENGLAND!
Hashut for King haha
I'd put a castellan and 2 daemonsmiths to blob and for extra powder without armaments, and to weaken everything to fire with kindleflame
Oh dang yeah Kindleflame would add some nice little damage boosts! I didn't think of that at all that's a great idea! Thanks bro!
Comment made
Cheers bro!
should get the repeater mod for the fireglaives, it makes them even more fun haha
Omg that sounds broken af and I love it!
@@MalleusGaming57 ye it does lmao, they fire 3 rounds before reloading LMAO