Windu was considered one of the most powerful Jedi to ever live; his speed was not his only strength. He was the best Jedi to take on any sith in saber combat due to his fighting style he created. His force ability was only outmatched by Yoda. Mace was just an all around badass, and it's hard to bet against him versus anyone.
I believe Master Windu's Vaapad form will give him a small advantage over Lord Vader when it comes to a lightsaber battle, but Lord Vader has more potential with the force. I can see this being a very long battle.
Nah, as much as I love Vader, we've seen plenty of evidence he was broken by his injuries. Mace Windu? Guy fought Palpatine on par. If Vader could have matched Palpatine, he would have, he had plenty of desire to kill and overthrow him. So if Mace can match Palpatine, we have enough evidence he's ahead of Vader. Let's just look at Shatterpoint. Even if it has no combat application, Mace's pre-disposition to that mindset would see him going for Vader's chestplate or chopping his limbs. Yes Vader isn't flesh, but when has that been an issue for a lightsaber? Vader's no pushover, but it's quite clear he wasn't as skillful as Mace or Palpatine. He never met his full potential, that's a huge part of his story. Mace did, and was amazing.
Ikr. Maybe Yoda was better with the force but Windu was a Beast. Some people say "Palpatin knew Anakin was coming so he lost." Lucas Himself said that Yoda is the only one who can see into the future. When Anakin entered the Jedi tempel Palpatin had already lost. Btw I think thats why Windu has a purple lightsaber.
+Jennifer Schleei Why does Mace have a purple lightsaber, sorry I don't follow, explain? :) I know the official reason but what was your idea? I agree Palpatine was beaten, definitely! He did a Cartman and played the situation as any shifty, slithery so-and-so will, but that was never his overall plan, if it was, he was a complete idiot. I get it, they wanted to play subtext with regards to the original film's Palpatine and Luke dialogue, but he didn't allow himself to be defeated just to turn Anakin, that was too dangerous and nonsensical. Also, from a thematic, storyline perspective, it makes sense for Palpatine to have some kind of equals, otherwise it's just foolish and noncompetitive, and serves no purpose. What, he was just throwing the fight against Yoda too? He had no reason to keep Yoda alive. He can be awesome without being the absolute best at everything and just "throwing every fight because reasons". I think Mace and Yoda had more than enough talent, experience, and connection to the Force to be able to match Palpatine, because while he's an amazing antagonist and overall scheming evil presence, there's no reason to believe he was the best lightsaber duelist in Star Wars. I'm pretty sure his talent lay in his mind and his overall Force connection, he was probably the greatest Force user.
***** Yoda isn't ahead of Mace physically. Yoda is a far greater Force user, but not a greater combatant or physical specimen, obviously. Yoda was the equal of Palpatine with a blade, the very same as Mace, and in the novels and texts, like the novelisation of Revenge of the Sith, it clearly states that Mace gained control. I know, everyone wants to ultra-hype Palpatine. But fuck that, the guy got picked up and carried like a baby and chucked over a railing by Vader. Where was his speed and agility then?? He actually doesn't kill the Jedi council members as fast in the novelisation, Kit Fisto lasts a bit longer. And of course, things progressed outside of Mace's control, but obviously he could track Palpatine's motion haha, how did he fight him at all if he couldn't?? That line was purely to do with the control being out of his hands, nothing to do with his ability to track Sidious. Mace and Palpatine are equal, and Palpatine lost.
"With a stooped, small appearance, Yoda may not look like a warrior, but his skills with a lightsaber were unequaled." A Guide to Weapons of the Force "We've not seen Mace fight yet, and we know that he's second only to Yoda." Nick Gillard "Mace Windu's fighting abilities are second only to Yoda." George Lucas "I'm like the second baddest guy in the universe." Samuel L. Jackson "I am not [Yoda's] equal in peace or war." Mace Windu in Dark Redezvous "Though it was true that he had slowed slightly in the years that Mace Windu had known him, Yoda's skill with a lightsaber was still second to none on the council." Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter "Master Windu was also known within the Order for his unusual fighting style, one that he developed after studying the dueling styles of various lightsaber masters. His attacks consisted of relentless, unpredictable blows, like shots from an autoblaster. Master Windu himself remained perfectly balanced and centered. In the history of the Jedi Order, only two opponents ever overcame him in battle. One was Master Yoda, who some said was the Order's true master of lightsaber combat. The other was former Master Dooku, whose own fighting style was archaic, yet stunningly effective." Power of the Jedi Sourcebook
+Morgan Swift That's very speculative. But also there is a counter to that. When Mace Windu fought against Sora Bulq and Asajj Ventress, who use the dark side, his use of Vaapad didn't seem to do much. It's insinuated that Sora and Mace were using Vaapad on one another in their duel and they only fought as equals. In Mace's fight with Asajj Ventress the Star Wars fact file 108 reads: "Mace Windu had to use all his skills to defeat the dark side fighter Asajj Ventress."
I'd disagree with the fact file 108. Ventress is good, but not THAT good. I'd consider it another Mace Windu inconsistency. One moment he's second to only Yoda, the next he's struggling against Ventress.
Siddiq Ismail Lol you can't disagree with the fact file. :-P Just because Ventress could contend with Mace does not mean she was his equal. Mace just had to give his full attention to beat her. She admits that she is outmatched by him. It's not so much a low showing for Windu as much as it is a great showing for Ventress.
Antoine Bandele Yeah... Let me rephrase that: I believe the fact file is inconsistent with other Mace Windu showings, though now that you explain it, I take it back.
When it comes to Dueling Skills, i would give the edge to Mace. He was probably the best swordsman among the Jedi, even better than Anakin and Cin Drallig
I think one thing you failed to take into account is Mace's use of Force crush/grip. As it was done to Grievous (Hence the constant coughing), he could employ a similar technique to Vadar's control panel during the fight.
Mace's use of Force grip against Grievous was successful because Grievous is a _non-Force sensitive_. That sort of power doesn't work as easily against someone like Vader.
@@AntoineBandele yes it would work because the suit allows him to breathe mace would force crush it Vader is mostly machine he can not move any where close to mace windus speed mace windu would force crush him the same as grievous because Darth Vader is mostly machine that's the reason force lightning killed him easily one SHOT and why Darthvader himself being a sith can not shoot lightning lmao
@@evanabbott2737 not really, if that was the case then jedi would be resistant to force choke or sith resistant to abilities like push, but they aren’t, the crush ability would work on vader, especially the cybernetic half of him
So. You're basing your assumption that Vader can keep up with Windu on a single hyperbole? Vader's never been that fast in canon or legends. You explicitly give Vader the benefit of inconsistent writing while counting it against Windu. In your Marek v Revan video you have no problem with Marek tossing around star destroyers but when Mace thrashes an army in the Genndy Tartakofsky cartoon, it's just too crazy to be true. You play obvious favorites in the assumptions you make about them as stylists as well. What is your grudge against Mace? You did this same thing in his Dooku fight. Luke's the only master you've pitted him against who's got a chance of out-fighting him.
Mace consistently has been shown to be weaker than an army in books and comics even in the movies while Vader usually slaughters armies in all forms of media
@@Redoren966 Mace has also been show as the strongest force-wielder in all Star Wars movie/TV entertainment, period. He did things even Yoda couldn't do. The only ones even near on his level were Yoda, Sidious, Dooku, and Anakin&Obi-Wan. The aforementioned force-users were literally all on the top of force-users of all time though, as said by the writers and choreographers of ROTS.
@@TheStraightestWhitest ummmm no, that's just wrong on so many levels. one Obi-Wan is a tier Bellow Windu, Sidious and Yoda are a Tier Above him. he is on the same level as Dooku and that's about it. The Writers of ROTOS only took in to account that time Period. if you like, take Luke as a Grand Master his Force powers should be Considerably more powerful then Windu. there is nothing that shows him to be the ''Strongest Force Wielder''
@@coldrock6828 Grand Master Luke isn't even canon... And yes, Obi-Wan is on par with Mace Windu. The two always stalemate one another. Mace can't penetrate Obi-Wan's Soresu, nor does Obi-Wan have the power to do the reverse to him.
@@TheStraightestWhitest This is a discussion on a video focusing on Legends. When have the two actually fought? Because Juyo, the style that Vaapad is a variant of, is literally described as the one form that, if used by a master, can break through a soresu masters guard.
Being able to utilize both the Light and Dark side of the Force, one would think Windu would have the ability to negate Vaders force choke. Or that he would have the common sense not to continue using Vapaad while he is injured.
Ya Boy Trev Dean Vader is better with the blade because he fought many other Jedi finding out what from they use and then hammering them down with the form weaknesses his strength is too much for a 50 year old and Vader has taken out agility
@@emperorpalpatine7856 as overrated shatterpoint may seem... In Mace case .. It is a big time advantage.. It helps mace that he too uses elements from the dark side like vader into his abilities..
Emperor palpatine none of the Jedi fought after ROTS are on the level of a Prime Mace Windu at all Nd Vapaad combined with Shatterpoint is a hard counter to Vader who isn’t more powerful in the force anymore the only real match is bladework where they r more equal but maces pure agility Nd speed would put Vader at a real disadvantage
I feel like Vader was highly overrated because he was in the moviese and he was the chosen one, he was strong and skilled but I really don't think that he would be able to stop Mace's onslaught, Mace was more skilled than Vader before he turned to the dark side and he was a far better duelist back then. His armour would stop a few attacks but Mace would definitely get through soon enough and his shatter point would make it even easier.
only to master both the light and the dark.....and not always. vaapad just takes you close to the darkside. mace uses vaapad ,to masterful effect yet hes no sith
Okay, well I mean there is a higher chance to turn into the sith, and if most of the padawans who practice vaapad turn into sith, then the jedi order won't let anyone practice it :(
I agree with this verdict. Though mace is one of the best lightsaber duelists in history, I think Vader's force abilities are more nuanced and skilled and his lightsaber dueling abilities were on par with mace. Vader was definitely a better duelist than Anakin. Mace was exceptional, but most people don't get is that his win over Palpatine was real but it was also very circumstantial. Anakin was pretty on par with Mace on lightsaber dueling abilities, with Mace edging out because of his experience. It can be argued that Darth Vader was a better duelist than mace as well, though that's debatable, at the very least Vader is on par.
Interesting analysis. However, Vader never reached anything close to his true potential. He may have good knowledge of the force but there's no evidence that he has more knowledge of the force. In terms of force knowledge and for powers, Vader and Mare equal. Granted Mace is not at the level of Sidious and Yoda. Neither is Vader. Since their force powers cancel each other out, lightsabre skills will determine the outcome. Mace is is a more skilled duelist. Vapaad is only effective against users who use a lot of dark side energy. I agree that Mace got amped big time during his duel with Palpatine as Palpatine had plenty of dark energy to give. As Vader got older he was more composed in his dueling style, but still very stiff, and was not as aggressive as he was when he was Anakin. If Vader choses to use dark side energy, he will only feed to Vapaad. |this is why I would give Mace a slight edge. If Vader remains composed, it will be a long fight and comes down to who makes the first mistake. I would give Mace a slight 52% win percentage over Vader. Both are relatively equal.
@@alzallas2302 You make very good points my man, but I have to disagree. Perhaps their knowledge of the force was similar, but Vader was able to use the force effectively in combat situations much like Dooku (hurling objects/projectiles via telekinesis), something Mace never really did, also Vader's raw force feats are superior to mace's (even if you disagreed with pre Disney Vader, after Disney acquired Star Wars he seemed to get a bigger amp), also on the point of his lightsaber abilities, maybe you prefer to use the term "stiff" but I would phrase it as "efficient". In terms of dueling abilities, Vader was a superior duelist to Anakin, who lets not forget was a level 9 (level of Yoda, Palpatine and though not mentioned, Mace), only lacking in terms of experience. Now I agree with one point of yours which is Mace would get a Vapaad amp, but thats not the only thing that fueled him with his fight with Palpatine. Mace had immeasurable anger at Palpatine for deceiving him, the republic and his Jedi brethren. That kind of circumstance is pretty hard to recreate. I also think Mace's dueling style is a double edged sword, as it is an all out attacking based dueling style, which can leave him open to djem so counter attacks. I would argue that Vader's djem so style can somewhat counter Mace's Dark Side fueled Vapaad onslaught. It's also important to remember Vapaad was only fully achieved a single time (due to the circumstances I mentioned earlier). Just in terms of dueling abilities, they're the same. To me its very close and very circumstantial. I do agree with you on the point that the both are relatively equal and that it is not going to be decided by way of the force. At any given day Mace can win and in other days Vader will win. I give a 55% edge to Vader.
@@alzallas2302 Your notion of Mace is not at the level of Sidious and Yoda is off. Sidious was trained and embraced the Dark side since his teenage years. He is similar to Starkiller who was trained from a child by Darth Vander. Yoda was 900 years, so acourse, he would be naturally more power. If Mace had embraced and immersed himself in the darkside when he fought Sidious, he would have made quick work of Sidious. Also, Vaapad is a skill/power.
Mace would win against any Sith Lord one-on-one, due to his use of Vaapad which allows him to gain strength form his opponent's anger. He even defeated Darth Sidious through this.
You misunderstand Vaapad: www.comicvine.com/profile/silver2467/blog/mace-windu-vs-darth-sidious-what-really-happened/77247/ What's more, Vader did not fight with rage, as indicated in the TFU2 novelization.
***** If you are talking about pre-suit Vader, then yes, he fought with unabated rage. Just as SuperMicklovin said ... Vader just got more focused, he didn't rage out. One does not cut someone's hand off with a precision-Makashi slash in a fit of rage. If you are referencing pre-suit Vader, I agree. But the cybernetic Vader had his emotions under control.
While I LOVE this series, I believe that Mace was able to best Sidious because the stronger the dark side was in his foe the more Mace was able to absorb and use it against his adversary. Vaapad allowed Mace to do so and would allow him to best Vader in that respect
Hahah! Antoine Bandele, your joking right? Mace Windu, the Master of the Order, Second only to Yoda is killed buy Darth Vader? Look, I'm a big fan of the Sith, always have been. But I know that Mace Windu is nothing to play with. Only a handful of Sith would have a chance i.e. Darth Bane, Darth Sidious, Darth Sion, Darth Malgus and a few others. I know, I know, "Vader refined his style", but he still is a broken shadow of what he was, his own master repeatedly tried to replace him. Even in the book the Rise of Darth Vader it tells us just how far his injuries went. Hell, if you ask me, his prime was when he fought Obi Wan on Mustafar. Vader was a powerhouse, no doubt about it. But against a Jedi of Mace's caliber. He's not there. Had Darth Vader not been defeated on Mustafar, I doubt ANY being could stand up against him... Even Yoda and Sidious. He would have been the most powerful Sith ever. Period. He had the potential, but he lost it. Vader has powerful strikes, but Vaapad, plus the speed of Mace would be too much. Even if Mace employs, his knowledge of Makashi, Djem-So and Ataru, he'd be to fast for Vader. Mace Windu arguably might be stronger than Yoda, as he faired a lot better against Sidious than Yoda did, both in the movie, and novelization of Episode 3. If Mace can defend against the force attacks of the legendary Darth Sidious, (who Darth Vader while in his suit could NEVER go toe-to-toe with) he can block Vaders. I mean, Vader has a chance, and Mace isn't invincible. I just can't see Vader winning. And I think he's kind of overrated. Vader would have to fully emerge himself in the Dark Side. Which he never did.
I'll leave these here for you: www.comicvine.com/profile/silver2467/blog/mace-windu-vs-darth-sidious-what-really-happened/77247/ www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=707837 Also, I would not put Malgus over Vader. Malgus was a more unrefined version of Vader. Bane I do think would do well against Vader. Sidious of course. Darth Sion maybe. I would reply to each of your points but those links should suffice. Also, I do not think Vader's prime was on Mustafar: ua-cam.com/video/xEndHc0rHX8/v-deo.html
Look at the points made in the blog post. Attacking the platform does not conduct a healthy debate, nor does it present a strong argument on your case. Read the post, formulate a opinion and rebut it. Let's discuss this people. Let's get out of this abrasive UA-cam mentality.
Yea, bro you verified everything I said. Mace would definitely win. Now if Vader had not lost to Obi Wan on Mustafar, Then, I think he could kill Mace. But he can't do it as a mentally and physically broken cyborg.
BEGIN CITATION: Nick Rostu knew darkness. He had, after all, stood with the Jedi Master Mace Windu against Kar Vastor in the steaming jungles of Haruun Kal. Kar Vastor, leader of the Balawai resistance; Kar Vastor, with his arm-mounted vibroblade weapons and his almost supernatural strength. Kar Vastor, stronger in the Force than any of the Korunnai, stronger than any in the galaxy, perhaps, save for the Jedi. Kar Vastor, so submerged in the dark side that, even though Nick had been only a couple of meters away from him during that final battle, eventhough he could see the man as clearly as he could see Mace, or Iolu, the guard who'd sliced him from sternum to navel-still, looking back on it now, he realized he couldn't visualize the guerrilla leader's face. It was as if the Balawai commander had been shrouded in darkness, somehow, as if the dark side of the Force radiated a strange anti-light. Kar Vastor had been the essence, the personification, of primal power, jungle savagery, and bloodlust distilled into flesh. Nick had never seen anyone or anything to match him. Until now. Until he stood, unarmed, before Darth Vader. As if being armed would make a difference, he thought. He could be tricked out with wrist rockets, a hold-out shooter, a pair of DL-44s, and a disruptor rifle, and he might just as well be carrying a pointed stick. Vastor had been animal ferocity and menace, barely contained. He'd thrummed with the power of the dark side. His arms, legs, torso, and shoulders had been layered with striated muscle; he looked like he could have lifted a pregnant grasser over his head. One-handed. Vader was as tall as Vastor had been, but probably massed a good twenty kilos less. He wasn't physically impressive in the same way; no musculature was visible under the black armor. It didn't matter. There was no doubt in Nick's mind that, were Kar Vastor somehow to be pitted against Darth Vader, the feral Balawai renegade wouldn't stand a chance. The Force was powerful in Vader; even the dim wattage of Nick's connection could feel that. It was far more powerful than it had been in Kar Vastor. It had pulsed from Vastor in waves of fury, blasted like an open furnace. In Vader, it was-contained. Pent. Waiting. END CITATION. Source: Coruscant Nights Let's keep that in mind. Kar Vastor would be annihilated by Vader. Let's continue: BEGIN CITATION: He extended his hands, and closed his eyes, and hummed, and I could feel motion in the Force, a swirl of power very unlike any I've felt from a Jedi healer-or anyone else, for that matter. A streak of red painted itself along their spines, and a moment later this red suddenly blossomed into the glistening wetness of fresh blood oozing through their skin-and details, I suppose, are unnecessary. Suffice it to say that Kar had somehow used the Force-used pelekotan-to persuade the fever wasp larvae that they were in the wrong place to hatch: using the same animal tropism that draws them from the site of the wasp sting to cluster along the victim's central nervous system, Kar induced them to migrate-Out of Besh and Chalk entirely. And such was his power that the entire wriggling mass of them-nearly a kilo all told-squirmed its way straight into the tyruun blaze, where the larvae popped while they roasted with a stench like burning hair. In the midst of this extraordinary display, Depa leaned close to me and whispered, "Don't you ever wonder if we might be wrong?" I didn't understand what she was talking about, and she waved her fine-boned hand vaguely toward Vastor. "Such power-and such control-and never a day of training. Because what he does is natural: as natural as the jungle itself. We Jedi train our entire lives: to control our natural emotions, to overcome our natural desires. We give up so much for our power. And what Jedi could have done this?" I could not answer; Vastor has power on the scale of Master Yoda, or young Anakin Skywalker. And I had no desire to debate with Depa on Jedi tradition, and the necessary distinction between dark and light. END CITATION. Source: Shatterpoint Mace faces against Kar and loses. Mace states Kar's raw ability in on par with Yoda and Skywalker. Nick Rostu knew both Mace and Kar, yet he states that Kar would have been no match for Vader.
UPDATE: I'm on the fence with this verdict. While I understand what I was attempting to achieve here (establishing how effective Vader's style would be against Windu, and how inflated Windu's use of Vaapad is) there is still a solid argument that Windu would still achieve victory. SECOND UDPATE: Yeah, Mace should take this, especially after reading this passage from Fightsaber: "[Vader's] technique lacks the advanced polish of study with lifelong masters, but he wields his Form V power with utter confidence against Luke Skywalker."
+Antoine Bandele I know it wouldn't be a priority, but I would like to see your new method for explaining battles in regard to this video. It would be very interesting for you to break the fight down as you did with Ventress vs Luke. I still hold that Mace would defeat Vader, but it would be a hell of a fight. Vaapad was more than just form 7, it was form 7 new and improved, and Vader's anger would feed Mace. Vader would not be ready for a full on assault from a lightsaber form he has never seen before. Mace mastered form 5, Vader's bread and butter, but Vader knows little to nothing about Vaapad.
Form VII was already perfected, it just wasn't perfect for Jedi ideal. Form VII, by way of the Sith, was already about control (as per _Book of the Sith_).
+Antoine Bandele do you consider Nick Rostu's evaluation of Vader's Power in comparison to Vastor's to hold any merit in comparison to Mace after he states that he wouldn't be able to beat Vastor's power "on a good day"?
Nick rostu has sensed both Vader, ad Vastor's power in the force, Vader is much stronger according to Rostu. Vastor and Mace have fought before and vastor kicked the crap outta him. Mace even states something along the lines of him not being able to over power vastor on a good day
Anakin Skywalker is way stronger and faster than Mace Windu. Also Anakin is way WAY WAY stronger than Mace Windu in the force. I would consider Anakin and Mace equals in swords play though... Therefore, Anakin Skywalker would destroy Mace Windu
wildthang32 Anakin and Windu were about on par speed and strength wise in ROS. Anakin was faster when he embraced the dark side true, but Windu's vaapad and shatterpoint counteracts this. Sidious was definitely faster and more vicious than Anakin at ROS, yet Windu fought on equal terms and bested him thanks to Vapaad. When it comes to Darth Vader, he was much slower yet stronger and his force abilities and sensitivity was very diminished. So windu beats all iterations of Anakin
+Sergio Velasco Sidious actually lets Windu "win" their fight so that Anakin would come to his rescue. Sidious wanted Anakin to think that the Jedi are his enemy. When it comes to Vader's ability I see no reason to believe that Vader was weaker in the Force than Anakin. He is slower, but he is more trained in many forms of blade work and in the Force. The limitations brought on by the suit led Vader to perfect a style that fit him. The suit and robotic limbs also made Vader much more resistant to damage. A close fight, but I think that Vader beats Windu.
Evan Schaefering This is a common misconception, Lucas clarified in an interview that while Sidious like Yoda is able to anticipate some of the future. It's impossible to anticipate 100% of what's gonna happen, Sidious felt anakin's presence until he was entering the building which by then he was already on the losing side. Lucas further clarifies that Mace and his skills allowed him to grow to the occasion matching and besting Sidious, fighting him as an equal rather than a subordinate. Mace beat Sidious and could have killed him had Anakin not fully turned to the dark side.
Sergio Velasco Lucas says one thing but shows something completely different in the movie. Sidious was able to engage in a 4 v. 1 fight against Jedi Masters (all of whom were council members) and defeat three of them in a matter of seconds. In my opinion Sidious knew that he could hold his own against Windu long enough for Anakin to arrive. Then Sidious could play the victim and turn Anakin against Windu and the Jedi.
No he should have won he’s faster and is a little weaker but can still rip apart battle droids with his bare hands and has an ability called shatter point which sees an enemies weakest point and exploits it not to mention he has vappod which would feed off Vader’s anger and mace mace windu stronger and kick Vader’s ass so not funny joke
Not to mention mace windu used force crush on General grievous organs and could do so on darth Vader’s control panels ending the battle before it even started it would be a white wash
Ben lewandowski even though mace windu did break and destroy b2s vader destroyed a droid that can react to vaders saber throw and destroyed the droid with 2 punches 2!
Ya just random fight against Samuel L Jackson, Anakin's thoughts "I didn't expect Windu to survive that blow. oh shit". Windu: "Prepare youreself Mutha Fucka!"
Mace windu was one of the greatest duelists of all time. With that being said and vaders limited speed theres a good chance mace would be able to land a shot in and end it right there.
Antoine Bandele What I saw in the movies is Windu is Salieri to Anakins's Mozart. Mozart is younger, more talented and is being kept in his place by Salieri who has higher status. Because of that association, I feel empathy for Anakin, and dislike Windu.
Doesn't matter if his opponent is far more powerful than he is, which is the case with Vader. Proof of this is how difficult it was for him to deflect Palpatine's Force Lightning.
@@jarlbalgruufthegreat7488 Obviously Mace would have gotten stronger too. But the take away here is he beat him. Whether barely or not, he beat him ergo he would beat Vader.
+Morgan Swift That is right. Though, that's a bit different as Darth Vader admits that Luke was a legitimate challenge for him. While Asajj does not prove to be too much of a challenge for Mace, she just forced him to use all his skills.
The point that i'm making is that the mere fact that Vader finds Luke a challenge is enough to question Vader's ability as a duelist but not as a fighter and vader may be refined but his incredible strength is what the whole suit was geared towards making him overwhelming (aside keeping him alive) and as you mentioned yourself,Vader could only use his speed in short burts therefore the question remains will Vader be able to hold off Mace untill he could release his speed? i think not besides he would have to get angry to unleash his full speed due the limitaionts the suit provides.
+Morgan Swift *The point that i'm making is that the mere fact that Vader finds Luke a challenge is enough to question Vader's ability as a duelist* Vader was 1 of the greatest Jedi hunters of all time, refined by decades of experience. Luke Skywalker had a connection to the Force equal to our greater than Vader's and after a mere 4 years was the superior fighter.since Luke is the most powerful Jedi to ever exist, Vader finding Luke a challenge doesnt necessarily mean he is at a disadvantage when confronted with Windu
+Antoine Bandele U have a fair argument, however I disagree, Windu did deafeat Darth Sidious, I believe this is true because later in the movie when master Yoda almost deafeat Sidious, in all the prequels Windu is labeled the best duelist in the order. Making him better than Yoda. I think it was Lucas's intention for Windu to deafeat Palpatine. If Anakin came with Palpatine having killed Windu he could have just said Windu tried to kill me and he may have still gone to the dark side...
Yoda is the gold standard to all Jedi: "If you spent as much time practicing your swordplay as you do practicing your wit you would rival Master Yoda as a swordsman." Obi-Wan Kenobi in _Attack of the Clones_ "We've not seen Mace fight yet, and we know that he's second only to Yoda." _Nick Gillard_ "Mace Windu's fighting abilities are second only to Yoda." _George Lucas_ "I'm like the second baddest guy in the universe." _Samuel L. Jackson_ "With a stooped, small appearance, Yoda may not look like a warrior, but his skills with a lightsaber were unequaled." _A Guide to Weapons of the Force_ "I am not [Yoda's] equal in peace or war." Mace Windu in _Dark Redezvous_ "Though it was true that he had slowed slightly in the years that Mace Windu had known him, Yoda's skill with a lightsaber was still second to none on the council." _Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter_ "Master Windu was also known within the Order for his unusual fighting style, one that he developed after studying the dueling styles of various lightsaber masters. His attacks consisted of relentless, unpredictable blows, like shots from an autoblaster. Master Windu himself remained perfectly balanced and centered. In the history of the Jedi Order, only two opponents ever overcame him in battle. One was Master Yoda, who some said was the Order's true master of lightsaber combat. The other was former Master Dooku, whose own fighting style was archaic, yet stunningly effective." _Power of the Jedi Sourcebook_
+Antoine Bandele Yoda is superior to Windu in terms of wisdom but not as a lightsaber duelist "He's as wise as master Yoda, and as powerful as master Windu" - Anakin Skywalker
Facts > Opinion. Yoda does not appreciate Yoda and his talent. As I've already presented through several factoids (none of which you responded to), Yoda > Mace as a lightsaber duelist is Star Wars fact as stated by not one, but several sources.
So... I guess I'm the only one who is still waiting for a remake/rebuttal of this video of yours? But I know that you want to stay away from SW for a while, and I fully respect that. Plus, the Avatar videos have so far been phenomenal.
"When vader was struck by a light saber, he kept going. When Mace had his hand sliced off, he yelled in pain." I'm pretty sure even Vader groaned in pain when his hand was chopped off by Luke in Episode 6. Just saying man :V
I have gone back and forth on this one a lot. While I do think that you slightly underrate Windu as a duelist (Vaapad is a lightsaber style with sequences foreign to what Vader would know), I actually think that what gives Vader the victory is his force abilities. Great job on this one Antoine!
Vader wins, by being noticeably stronger and telekinetically superior, Mace may be SLIGHTLY faster and more skilled but it wouldn't be enough to give him a win. Vader 7-8/10
Sad thing is, I used to RP Star Wars on AOL and I used to use various techniques that you mentioned and I bet half of the SW liking population never even heard of them. Ctfu.
I agree with this one. Mace Windu was very strong in tapping, into his inner darkness but, I believe Vader would withstand his attacks and defeat him with skill.
+ROBLOX Attack on Titan Not really. Vader was simply more powerful in the Force. If he hadn't lost so much of his body he would have grown stronger than Sideous. Which is why Sidious helped to engineer his maiming.
Also pretty much Darth Vader is a equivalent to a angry bowl :-) so I'm pretty sure he can use all of his hate and anger just to beat the crap out of the window man:-)
I agree with your analysis BUT, I think that if Windu knew either who Vader was OR what Vader had done(how many Jedi he had killed) then they would be enough for him to beat him, also if you are measuring Windu at his prime would his fight with palpatine not count as his prime, Shatterpoint engaged.
I believe that Mace Windu would get the same amp he got Palpatine and that's because against vader his sense of vengeance would be his powering force (both for himself and for the jedi order).
+aldo ariza Ive only watched the movies so not as knowledgable about this but it sounds to me like Mace Windu was lucky to put the Ultimate Sith Lord on his backside. And if I were fighting Sidious I definitely wouldn't be expecting or even want a "Jedi" to betray me. But of course maybe looks can be deceiving and Mace was just lucky and then unlucky in the force that day.
Vader at the end of revenge of the sith is way faster and stronger than Mace! Like WTF? Vader is also WAY stronger than Mace in the force. Vader's experience in dueling would actually make him win
In my opinion anything can happen in a light saber duel. After all, Obi wan Kenobi did beat Anakin even though Anakin was way more powerful and a better duelist than him. However, the Lucasflim story group did confirm that they considered Darth Vader, Dark lord of the Sith to be the best lightsaber duelist in all of Star Wars
Luke beat vader. Windu is certainly superior to Luke. Therefore, Windu is superior to Vader. It's what we in the business call algebra, plain and simple.
Well Mace, you put up a pretty good fight, unless I'm mistaken, no other Jedi has EVER caused that much of a problem for Vader, with the exception of Luke and Galen. But for the creator of this video, you did a wonderful job on it. I do have something I want to address however. When Depa got past Mace Windu's defense, he has just been in a war, like you said earlier in your video, Mace had been shot, had a chunk of his neck missing, and had not slept in days, not to mention being still battered from his fight with Vastor, to be fair it was astounding he was able to keep going at all, so I think he should have been given credit to his willpower and constitution, just as Vader did. But I don't think had he been in perfect health, she could have touched him. It was after all this happened that he truly mastered Vaapad, he admitted to always holding Vaapad back, for fear of turning to the dark side, but during his fight with Sidious, he admitted he no longer feared the dark side, and give himself fully over to Vaapad, that's what made him so devastating a fighter vs Sidious. But this is the big question, Vaapad, I think you missed the most valuable attribute to Vaapad. His ability to feed off the enemy's dark side. True, he would not have been amped to the same degree as his fight with Sidious, but he wouldn't need to be. While in Vaapad, he can fight for nearly an unlimited amount of time, because his body is not getting tired at all, being recharged over and over by Vaapad. By giving himself over to it fully, I think Vader would only recharge Windu over and over, without even realizing it, and the more angry Vader got, the more force augmentation he used, the stronger and faster Mace would become, until finally, Vader would be beaten. But all in all, great video Antoine, even if I do disagree with the verdict. Galen gets the next win I think, Maul MIGHT be the better dueler, but Galen's force powers are top tier.
Thank you! Glad you liked the video. I specifically leave out his ability to draw on the enemy's dark side, as he has not clearly been able to do that against the other folks who fought during the Clone Wars. The only example we have of him using Vaapad to its fullest extent is with Sidious and here is why. To successfully employ Vaapad one must first draw from their *own* dark side. Then and only then can they become a conduit, a channel for both combatants. The reason Mace Windu was able to contend with Sidious is because he felt betrayed. Mace Windu loved nothing else, no woman, no life of his own, no world possessions. His one and true love was the Republic, and what he stood for. When Anakin divuldged the truth about Palpatine it crushed Windu. BEGIN CITATION: Because Mace, too, has an attachment. Mace has a secret love. Mace Windu loves the Republic. Many of his students quote him to students of their own: "Jedi do not fight for peace. That's only a slogan, and is as misleading as slogans always are. Jedi fight for civilization, because only civilization creates peace." For Mace Windu, for all his life, for all the lives of a thousand years of Jedi before him, true civilization has had only one true name: the Republic. He has given his life in the service of his love. He has taken lives in its service, and lost the lives of innocents. He has seen beings that he cares for maimed, and killed, and sometimes worse: sometimes so broken by the horror of the struggle that their only answer was to commit horrors greater still. And because of that love now, here, in this instant, Anakin Skywalker has nine words for him that shred his heart, burn its pieces, and feed him its smoking ashes. Palpatine is Sidious. The Chancellor is the Sith Lord. He doesn't even hear the words, not really; their true meaning is too large for his mind gather in all at once. They mean that all he's done, and all that has been done to him- That all the Order has accomplished, all it has suffered- All the Galaxy itself has gone through, all the years of suffering and slaughter, the death of entire planets- Has all been for nothing. Because it was all done to save the Republic. Which was already gone. Which had already fallen. The corpse of which had been defended only by a Jedi Order that was now under the command of a Dark Lord of the Sith. Mace Windu's entire existence has become crystal so shot-through with flaws that the hammer of those nine words has crushed him to sand. (and later ...) Sinking into Vaapad, Mace Windu fought for his life. More than his life: each whirl of blade and whipcrack of lightning was a strike in defense of democracy, of justice and peace, of the rights of ordinary beings to live their own lives in their own ways. He was fighting for the Republic that he loved. END CITATION. source: Matthew Stover, Revenge of the Sith Once Windu could feed on that he was able to fight Sidious as an equal. If he innately had the skill all the time then he would have been able to save Agen Kolar and Saesee Tiin, Tiin, whom he fought equal with before. Both Kit Fisto and Windu didn't even see Agen and Saesee being killed. Sidious was that fast. But once Mace successfully fell into Vaapad it drew trouble for Sidious. But this was a one-time amp. Windu was personally hurt in this fight and he was fighting a personal fight. He would not have that same engagement with any other foe. He may receive a small boost from Darth Vader, as he is the face of the new Empire, but it certainly not be to the same extent.
Wouldnt his anger against Anakin aka Darth Vader be the same or even harsher than it was against Sidious. It was after all Darth Vader who murdered all those jedi in order 66. Unless you are suggesting that Mace had no knowledge of who Vader was or what his previous feats were. I dont think this is true. Even if Mace didnt know Vader was Anakin he would still have the knowledge that Vader carried out most of order 66. His rage against someone like vader would give him the power to use Vaapad to its fullest extent. Anther thing is that Anakin knew much about Mace as he was a Jedi Knight when Mace was a master. I still believe Darth wins this fight but I think Mace's Vaapad would be as strong as it was against Sidious.
***** It's different. Palpatine was the the Republic. Mace was fighting *for* Palpatine and he realized his leader was his enemy. That sort of betrayal brings out a different kind of passion out of a warrior.
Antoine Bandele I understand your opinion, thanks for taking the time to write it. Its nice to be able to debate a little, and not have it turn into a "YOUR SO STUPID!!!!" But I agree with all your logic save for one point, Mace had never truly used Vaapad to its highest level, until he fought Sidious that night, then it even said in the book. "Anakin could feel how the Force fed upon the shadow's murderous exaltation; he could feel fury spray into the Force though some poisonous abscess had crested in both their hearts. There was no Jedi restraint here. Mace Windu was cutting loose. Mace was deep in it now: submerged in Vaapad, swallowed by it, he no longer truly existed as an independent being. Vaapad is a channel for darkness, and that darkness flowed both ways. He accepted the furious speed of the Sith Lord, drew the shadow's rage and power into his inmost center- And let it fountain out again. He reflected the fury upon its source as a lightsaber redirects a blaster bolt. There was a time when Mace Windu had feared the power of the dark; there was a time when he had feared the darkness in himself. But the Clone Wars had given him a gift of understanding: on a world called Haruun Kal, he had faced his darkness and had learned that the power of darkness is not to be feared. He had learned that it is fear that gives the darkness power. He was not afraid. The darkness had no power over him. But- Neither did he have power over it. Vaapad made him an open channel, half of a superconducting loop completed by the shadow; they became a standing wave of battle that expanded into every cubic centimeter of the Chancellor's office. There was no scrap of carpet nor shred of chair that might not at any second disintegrate in flares of red or purple; lampstands became brief shields, sliced into segments that whirled through the air; couches became terrain to be climbed for advantage or overleapt in retreat. But there was still only the cycle of power, the endless loop, no wound taken on either side, not even the possibility of fatigue." Mace allowed Vaapad to take him over, he was always afraid to do this before, because he feared turning to the darkside, but from what he learned in Shatterpoint, he was no longer afraid, and this was the first time Mace truly let loose since that time. It leads me to believe this is the next level of Vaapad, or if you will, Vaapads true power.
Vader's exposed control panel is as terrible of a design flaw as the Death Star's thermal exhaust port. The Empire's got some poorly selected engineers...also how "canon" is that scene from Star Wars Clone Wars where Windu takes on an entire army of Super Battle Droids? Because you mentioned that his use of Vaapad would only allow for short bursts of energy but I interpret that Clone Wars scene as a huge feat in stamina, enough to last much longer with that lightsaber combat form than possibly any other duelist....
Jamyang Pelsang I thought the only reason it could be hit was due to Luke's use of the force to direct it also the exhaust port was made by an engineer who from what I remember was forced to design it, as well as not being too keen on the Empire. I read somewhere that Darth Sidiousatine kept killing and reviving the designer of the Death Star(s) because he was taking to long. So I could see why he made a vulnerable spot for it out of spite and hatred for the empire. As for Vader's control panel, it was a bad design flaw but IMO it was done for a few reasons. One being that if necessary Sidious could use it against Vader, and maybe it was placed there because something on your chest is easier to protect then on the back of your leg or up your arse lol.
hmm, I don't remember Luke using the force to aim the proton torpedoes, I assumed they were guided by a lock-on mechanism. And looking at the latest Rogue One trailer, Jyn Erso's father is one of the engineers, he could be the one that intentionally created the exhaust port as a weakness, that would be a clever way of patching up one the movie's supposed plot holes. And lol at your theory on Vader's panel, that makes a ton of sense, Sidious probably would be cautious enough to have a "kill-switch" for Vader if needbe. And having that panel on your ass would make for some fun #2s I imagine....
It was interesting to hear your take on this, but I just don't see Mace losing this one. Vader would be the favorite against all but the best duelists, but I don't see him beating a top 5 duelist, which is about where I'd put Mace Windu. I'd agree Vaapad wouldn't give him the boost it did against Sidious (Sidious was arguably the best opponent for Vaapad to draw from given Sidious' Dark Side purity and strength), but it would nevertheless still be quite formidable and in my view enough to get a very difficult victory.
My favorite Jedi is either Obi-Wan Kenobi or Qui-Gon Jinn. It's obvious why anyone would like Obi-Wan, but I like Qui-Gon for very different reasons. He may not have been the best swordsman, but he was the true definition of a Jedi. The only other Jedi that came close to Qui-Gon in terms of patience and determination, mind tricks, and compassion was Yoda. My favorite Sith is a tie between Maul and Vader.
Darth Maul maul is not you're favorite Vader is your master maul is not you're favorite Vader is your master maul is not you're favorite Vader is your master
I do agree this would be a very close bout and I could easily see Vader winning in certain scenarios however I think Windu would come out on top more often than not. First, where did you read that Vaapad is weak against multiple opponents? I have never heard of that being a weakness of the form. I have to disagree with you prediction that Vader's rage would throw off Windu. When Sidious attacked Windu and the other Jedi I highly doubt any of them expected this and yet Windu did not get blindsided and remained composed and I think we can all agree that Vader's rage is no where near as overwhelming as Sidious'. Also if Vader does tap into his rage it would only be to Windu's beneffet as it would give his more dark side energy to draw from, not as much as Sidious but certainly more than enough to fight through any injuries like the back pain you described. I also can't help thinking that Windu's strikes would be able too overwhelm Vader if used at the right moment. In Return of the Jedi Vader was completely overwhelmed by Luke's rage. Yes, Vader was probably caught off guard and there may have been some inner conflict that he was dealing with but Darth Vader is still a high level master with a ridiculously strong sense of self-preservation. If he could not adapt to Luke's sudden unrefined onslaught I have no doubt Windu would be able to pull off something similar if he timed is offense at the right moment, something I see him more than capable of doing. The final nails in the coffin for me is Windu's use of shatter point, the clips of Windu dismanteling droids both with his bare hands and force abilities, and the clip you showed of Windu crushing Greivous' cybernetics with force grip. Windu probably wouldn't even need to use shatterpoint to see where Vader's weaknesses lie. Vader maybe a capable unarmed fighter but I can't help thinking Windu is much better. One well placed punch or kick could greatly damage Vader's suit and if Windu uses force grip like he did against Greivous, it's all over. I recognize Windu doesn't use his force abilities often in a lightsaber duel but his duel with Sora Bulq tells me that he will if necessary and a fight against Vader is definitely a necessary time. It would be as a last result, probably while Vader is hurling objects at him. That's when Windu would reach out and crush or dismantle Vader's cybernetic with his force abilities, leaving Vader open for the killing blow.
I think it's a 6/10 advantage to Vader due to his constitution. The Jedi Path describes it as being vurnable to counter and multiple opponents: www.dropbox.com/s/yh4an44cr2yo279/Screen%20Shot%202014-08-18%20at%2010.01.40%20AM.png Vader's repulse would catch Windu off guard if he was employing Vaapad. It is a one-minded offense, with no care to defense. It's not that Windu would not be composed, but he would still get hit with the blast no less. I do not think Windu had a chance of overwhelming Vader through strength. His only method of victory would have to come with speed. Shatterpoint did not help Windu in his fights against Asajj Ventress, Depa Billaba, Sora Bulq or General Grievous (per "Labyrinth of Evil). Force grip worked well with Grievous in the 2D CW series because Grievous is not a Force sensitive. It would be much more difficult for Windu to apply that sort of ability on Darth Vader who would have a powerful Force wall to repel such attacks.
Antoine Bandele From what I understood, only Juyo was weak against Force attacks and Vaapad answered that weakness by feeding on the aggression of an opponent and turning it back on them in a superconducting loop. Even if Windu gets hit with the blast he can still answer it with one of his own. I never said Windu would overwhelm him with just strength. I said that he is probably more than capable of producing an offensive onslaught that could overwhelm Vader, be it speed or strength. If Luke could do it with unchecked unrefined rage I think Windu could do it too IF he times it right. If Windu spends a long enough time fighting without Vaapad then I think he could catch Vader off guard with it if he suddenly switch from defense to offense. I don't think Windu was able to use Force grip on Grievous just because he was a non-force sensitive, at least I've never heard of that being an explanation. If there is a source stating that then by all means point it out. I mention Shatterpoint because of it's ability to show weaknesses in the opponent (Vader's suit) but as I also said I don't think Windu would need it to see that Vader is more machine than man. For a powerful Jedi like Windu, that Suit is filled with weaknesses that can be exploited through the Force. As for Vader defending against Force grip, I could make the argument that even if Vader does have a defense against it that doesn't mean he will be able to get that defense up in time. If Windu does it out of the blue then I don't think Vader will have enough time to defend and even if he does, who's to say Windu couldn't break through whatever shield Vader put up? I don't know of any instance where Windu got hit with force choke so I can't say whether or not his shield could block it but it is a possibility. Also I just thought of a possible theory to explain Windu's inconsistency in battle. The Clone Wars was a wake up call to all Jedi similar to Vader's cybernetics being a wake up call for him. The situations, though different had the same ultimatum: adapt or perish. Up until the Clone Wars the Jedi mainly had to deal with blaster-wielding opponents, not lightsaber duelists because they though the Sith were extinct. When the Clone Wars started every Jedi had to step up their game and I believe Mace was no exception because on top of the droid armies they also had to contend with lightsaber duelists like Ventress, Grievous, and Dooku. That's why I think Mace struggled when fighting them, because outside of sparring sessions, he wasn't used to that kind of threat, but like Kenobi and Skywalker, I believe that as the war progressed Windu refined himself and got even better. So many people say Windu's fight with Sidious was a one-time amp. I don't think so. I think that was Windu's dueling skills at their best regardless of whether he had the amp. If you give a boxer a shot of adrenaline right before a fight he is still going to have the same level of skill as he had before the shot. The only difference is the amount of energy he has in the tank. Vader would be fighting the same Windu from that fight the only difference is the amount of energy he has in the tank and I think Windu knows how to pace himself.
savagenature1 Nah, Juyo and Vaapad held the same move set. The difference between the two is how each user dealt with the emotion needed for its moveset. The reason a Vaapad user was open to Force and physical attacks were for two reasons. (1) They needed to use a streaming Force augmentation to maintain Form VII's move set, leaving them open to physical attack. (2) By extension there effort was solely based on their offense, placing their whole body into a focused attack, leaving their defenses open. The logical I followed is that a Force wave from Darth Vader would throw Mace Windu back. If he employed Vaapad he knew he was sacrificing his defense, something Djem So could counter. I only see Windu overwhelming Vader with speed, not strength. Vader completely outclassed him in the regard. In speed, however, Windu had that. But Vader has showed a capacity to defend against quick attacks. His use of Soresu would help him with that. Form VII could break Soresu through power cleaves but again, Vader would not break under Windu's strikes. Not saying Windu isn't strong, but in comparison to Vader her was not his equal in that regard. There is not source on his Force grip but it's very obvious that is what occurred. Grievous is a non-forcensitive. Mace had distance. The reason Grievous could overwhelm Jedi without the user of the Force was because of his speed. Minutes earlier he evaded Jedi pushes (until he met Shaak Ti). Mace had distance so he could employ a Force crush on Grievous. But by no means would that be possible against Vader. Vader was a Force sensitive with still some of the most Force potential of anyone else. His Force wall, therefore, would be very strong. I've actually not seen Vader ever get Force pushed in any source. However, we have see Windu Force pushed by Sora Bulq. Shatterpoint has proved to be useful against fodder (battle droids) and with Mace's amp (against Sidious. But even that is debatable as Mace was drawing on what he thought was Sidious's fear when really it was Anakin's. Against Force-users shatterpoint has not proved to be a consistent tool for Mace. His proficiency came with seeing things in broader terms, not the minute cracks of a duel. (see above, I speak to Vader's Force wall) That's up to you to recognize. I personally do not calculate Windu's one-time amp in any fight I consider with him, others do. You are certainly within your right to utilize it. I just personally do not. Also your description of Windu becoming battle hardened through the Clone Wars there would be a counter for Vader who would be fighting Jedi for several decades, though less and less as we approach the timeline of the movies.
I agree with this conclusion, I love Mace but Vader has seen EVERYTHING, and I believe after having known of maces style would have more than likely learned countermeasures to it as his time as THE Jedi exterminator
@@MichaelDouglas-24 that may be but how would he even learn the form when all know practictioners are dead and it would be pretty safe to assume that the jedi or mace did not keep records for how the form was used.
@@masonguthrie1257 i didnt say he learned vapad, he definitely learned the 7th form of lightsaber combat, but the sith version. I said he would have taken countermeasures to it.
With all due respect i think you have a bias against mace windu. You gave him too little credit both in this video and in the Windu vs dooku. Windu is smarter than to just charge anakin with a sword. He could easily use the force to dismantle vader's respirator the same way he used the force to dismantle that droid in TCW. TBH this fight isn't even close, windu kept up with palpatine while vader never came close to palpatine in power.
If I had such a strong bias against Windu then he would not have won against Malgus. No he would not crush Vader's suit, because Vader, unlike General Grievous, has a Force wall. You seem to have completely missed the points I made about the Windu/Sidious fight. For something more thorough: www.comicvine.com/profile/silver2467/blog/mace-windu-vs-darth-sidious-what-really-happened/77247/ But I will be making a video highlighting what was up with that fight in the coming weeks.
Leon Welcome If that were the case then galen marek wouldn't have thrashed him so badly. Vader has not displayed an immunity to strong telekenetic attacks of the windu calibur. Windu has destroyed dozens of droids with the wave of a hand and demostrated the percision to dismantle a droid's electronics and bolts quickly.
Galen never thrashed with the Force, in the game or the book. But either does not matter as he was fighting a Vader outside of his prime. The most Galen did to Vader was throw out a Force repulse and crush him with metal piping. In the novel he straight up defeated him with his saber, no Force powers at all.
Antoine Bandele That depends on whether or not you believe novelizations supersede games or movies, which is debateable. I actually treat them all like separate continuities because they constantly contradict one-another. For example in the novel of tfu2 the galen's force waves explode the clone troopers organs out of their bodies while in the game he turns them to ashes. So all-in all I don't rely on novels. Back to the matter at hand. Vader has won the majority of his fights through complex sword play. He hasn't shown the ability to resist force attacks of mace windu's magnitude. He's a sword-specialist who happens to be moderately good at the force. He is not a dedicated force-user like palpatine, yoda and windu.
+ΛNYHΛX Darth Vader was (arguably) the star of 4 movies (the 3 prequels + Return of the Jedi). Mace Windu, zero. Vader had a destiny to fulfill, Windu was a bit role. The outcome would be pre-determined by forces outside their control.
You make a compelling argument but I think the battle could go the other way just as quick... No advantage... A game of chess... Anakin himself stated that Mace was extremely powerful... He admired Windu's power...
I think this fight, would be one of the closest fights in Star Wars history. They seem just so perfectly balanced against one another, I *need* to see it happen in live action.
He definitely wins but its because of shatter point and vapaad. Vapaad would allow him to use vader's own rage and dark side energy against him and amplify it. All without ever being tempted by the dark side.
Antoine Bandele Bro you can send all the links you like but links, theories, and excuses can't and won't change history. It happened and we all saw it happen. All the excuses in the world can't change history unless you have a time machine. Sry.
+Eaglewatch7dv Windu actually did get his arm chopped off by Darth Vader and got thrown out a window. You are the one denying "history". In fact I suspect Lucas gave Windu his name for the very purpose to have him get thrown out a window. Ironic, Windu was actually the one who broke the window too, and he fell out of it
Sidious was way more powerful than Vader because Vader lost all his limbs and his whole body got burned. Vader's strength with the force got diminished a lot.
Darth Vader is Star wars. The force has a destiny for him. Besides mace windu got his hand cut off lighting burned to the point of death and fell out a window. Darth Vader "You're not mace windu the master anymore oldman, the jedi are dead!" What he would say haha
You need to make a Yoda vs Sidious versus series. Even though this fight was still showcased in the movie, i think the community would still want to know your opinion in that subject
I still think mace would win,so if you add actions of EU Vader then you have add all actions displayed by mace in every format. Since he is a small character in the big Star Wars world, cartoons and books count. Anyway I don't believe mace would use vapaad only he would transfer from multiple forms which was master of all of them. Have safe and good weekend.
I fucking hope in Rogue One that Vader is badass and quick with all new effects and cgi so people can actually see what he is really capable of. I mean dayum some people are just ignorant of the fact his movies were in from 1977-1983 and for their time they were insane. It was just bad technique and choreography that let those duels down. Go read the bloody comics before you say anything about Vader being hindered by his suit and his force powers being weakened because he had less "midiclorians". He was fucking fast and even stronger than Anakin in the force. It was just the OT that let his character down in that respect. Thats my daily rant down i might just go do something else now
While I would definetly disagree that the duels in the originals were terrible by any sort, I would agree that if Luke or Vader were introduced in a more modern film, they would outshine any other characters in terms of skill and power simply through more modern effects and crisp imagery. I hate it when people place Luke and Vader on a smaller pedestal, simply because they hold a distorted view of Jedi combat (blame the prequels). We'll have to see wether Rogue One can do such
+Reality-Gamer As of before the new stuff about Lord Vader came out, the general concession was Lord Vader was weak due to his partial 'borg conversion "crippled" him.
***** I never have or will doubt Lord Vader's abilities. Through all the Vader Haters for years, I stood firm in my support The Dark Lord. Look at my at my pic. LOL I don't actually believe he is a shadow of himself, like a lot think. I actually believe he became stronger Post Mustafar. There is not one other Sith Lord out there in Cannon or EU that I personally believe would beat Lord Vader.
I am not in that Camp that believes Lord Vader could not defend against Force Lightning. He defended against it with his fight with Dooku as Anakin. Don't believe that would be something that he would of forgot. More so after his conversion.
Sorry man. Mace Windu is going to take this one. I like your analysis of Vader but he isn't in the same league as Windu. It's pretty much NCAA DI vs NCAA DII/DIII. George Lucas said himself Vader is 80% of Palpatine. Now, I watch mma, so I understand fighter math doesn't always work but a 20% difference is HUGE. That's an A+ student vs. a B-/C+ student. Mace beat Palpatine. I'd estimate Mace is at from 95% to 110% of Palpatine. 95 assuming Palps threw the fight and 110 assuming Mace beat him for real. On top, Vaders got too many weaknesses that can be exploited. It's impressive what Vader did to overcome his weakness but he's no where close to Mace. That's why Palps keeps trying to replace him with Starkiller and Luke. I'd say half the Clone Wars Jedi council (Yoda, Windu, Kenobi, Fisto, Kolar, Koon) and Dooku could take Vader at least 6/10. Palpatine reassures himself in the novel by saying Vaders mutilation is not that bad because there is no one left to challenge him.
mmm I actually read Matt Stovers EPS III book quite a few times. I have it actually. I like it far better than the actual movie. I just don't quite agree with some of the conclusions the blogger drew up. While it is true that Mace got a Vaapad "power boost" per say given the circumstances, that does not mean that the state of mind and motivation cannot be replicated. Vaapad will always be there. Either way, I believe Mace is up there with Palpatine. He won't win 10/10 but he'll at the very least get 3 or 4/10. Vader would lose to Palps 10/10 Also the blogger does this: he uses Matt Stover's book for part of his analysis and then he uses the actual movie for the other part. In his blog, he says Tiin, Fisto, and Kolar fell within an instant due to Palp's prowess. That only happens in the movie. In the book, Palpatine used his acting to distract Tiin with words and moved in for a cheap shot kill. Fisto lasted for a long time before being beheaded off screen. That's why that blog just doesn't do it for me. Lots of inconsistencies. :/
oh, I see an counter to my argument. I guess if we went off of Matt Stover's book and not the movie, you could argue Fisto helped Windu tire out Palpatine before dying. Well either way, in both book and movie, Palpatine was so exhausted after the fight, it took him a while to get up. At that high level, you'd be able to control your stamina very well. If Windu was significantly weaker than Palpatine, he wouldn't be that tired. Palpatine was not that exhausted when taking out Luke, Starkiller, or Vader.
I would definitely pick up Matt Stover's episode 3 novel if you haven't already. It's great! Better than the movie. It gets really philosophical like you do. I think you would like it
I am not making a case for either team here. However, I have to say that those who claim Vaapad can defeat Vader or that he can defeat Vader because he can defeat Palpatine gets things wrong. Firstly, Vaapad is not just a fighting style but a Force ability. Against Palpatine, Windu had an inherent darkness and anger (as seen in the Revenge of the Sith Novelization) and because he had a cycle of power with the pure darkness of Sidious. This was why he defeated Palpatine, because he essentially matched his speed through unleashing his anger. As read in the Novelization it said “.There was no Jedi restraint here. Mace Windu was cutting loose. Mace was deep in it now; submerged in Vaapad, swallowed by it, he no longer existed as an independent being.” This alludes the idea that Mace tapped completely into the dark side. This is why Dooku believed that dark side Yoda would have killed Sidious. However, Mace would not have defeat Sidious if Anakin didn’t arrive and created a false shatterpoint, which allowed Mace to disarm Palpatine. This would not be the case with Vader. Therefore, one cannot use the reasons of Vaapad or Mace beating Palpatine to claim that means Mace would beat Vader. To tell the truth, Mace would defeat Vader blade to blade. Although Vader’s Force powers would give him an edge, ultimately, Mace would win.
Pre-suit Vader cannot defeat Mace Windu, he never really dive deep into his force powers and although being a great swordsman, Mace is still far more better than him in swordsmanship. But post-suit Vader definitely will, although not as agile as pre-suit Vader, he is still one of the best swordsman in the galaxy, and he’s stronger and spent a lot of time honing his force powers. The man was powerful enough to crush star destroyers. Although crippled but I dare say his force powers far outshines Mace’s and using the force as a weapon is always superior than using a lightsaber.
@@mrpastanicknuggets7269 Right, he didn't seem conflicted when he threw a Lightsaber at Luke's head, or when he was taunting him about Leia, the minute Luke turned up and beat his robot ass he humbled himself and re-thought his actions before Luke would have to do it again Luke was only a Padwan and he defeated a full fledge Sith Lord, Vader was more theatrical than practical
@@TheStellarmanCo. Not at all and he was going easy just like in ESB, he was always conflicted about making his turn to the darkside. That's why he was not fully immersed in the darkside and palps even stated that vader could kill him but knew he wouldn't attempt it. He would destroy Luke in ROTJ but obviously prime Luke would beat vader, and he threw his lightsaber bc he knew he would dogde it, it's not like he was a noob at lightsaber combat/the force. And he knew that luke was trained by obi wan who beat him earlier so you tell me.
@@mrpastanicknuggets7269 You making excuses "palps even stated that vader could kill him but knew he wouldn't attempt it." Vader was NO match for Palpatine so Vader could Never win even if he did challenge him which is why he needed Luke to join him to overthrow the Emperor because he was scared to do it himself unlike Obi-Wan, Mace and Yoda. He would destroy Luke in ROTJ He didn't though Luke beat him fare and square even redeeming his father in the process Luke did what Vader would never do, he actually fought the Emperor twice, he lost 1st time and 2nd time disarmed him literally, Luke was way ahead of Vader at this point in Power and dueling. "he threw his lightsaber bc he knew he would dogde it," Another fan boy excuse, how do you throw a Lightsaber /lethal weapon at someone playfully knowing someone is going to dodge it? If we're best friends can I throw my razor sharp sword at you knowing your going to dodge it anyway? " it's not like he was a noob at lightsaber combat/the force." That's the point, Luke kind of is still a noob and even Obi-Wan told Luke that he couldn't become a Jedi Knight unless he challenges and defeats Vader, so he was still a Padwan. "And he knew that luke was trained by obi wan who beat him earlier so you tell me." Luke was only very minorly trained by Obi-Wan, his main training came from Yoda Except the truth, Vader lost to a padwan, the same Padwan whom also defeated his own Master, 1000 years of Sith tradition brought down by a Jedi less than 40 years of age Luke is the hero Vader should of been
Mace beat Sidious one on one, something Vader was to afraid to do because he knew he would lose. After Vader lost at Mustifar he lost a huge chunk of his connection to the force. Yoda couldn't even beat Sidious but Mace did. This speaks volumes about his skills and abilities. I love Vader but Mace wins this hands down.
Mace wins this one Forsure, too many advantages for him and weaknesses for Vader, mace has vapaad and shatter point, using vapaad turns Vader’s strength his rage against him and shatter point is just icing on the cake not to mention that Mace beat palp so how could he not beat Vader? And no Palp didn’t throw the fight to manipulate anikan George said that himself and also it wouldn’t make sense how could he appear weak after destroying all the other masters at once in seconds?
Reloadmynine You actually now that Vader is called the smartest Lightsaber Duelist? However in Jedi Fallen order he was able to lift the power of an ocean. A F*cking OCEAN. Vader would destroy Windu.
ANARCHO-CAPITALIST PROLIFE VEGAN BLACKPILLED Yes that‘s correct. But what many people forget is that Vader is a better duel list that Sidious. So that’s why Vader is Windu’s equal. (In lightsaber combat)
+josiah jenks Jensaarai1 is right to say they *fought* as equals but I would not say they are exact equals. I'm still inclined to say that Sidious was Mace's superior overall. Also I don't think Vader could challenge Sidious alone. That's why he wanted to recruit Luke, that's why he trained Galen. Vader would certainly be a challenge in lightsaber-to-lightsaber but he would be trumped by Sidious' Force powers.
teleportaat Yes, but not completely. Vader has been known to tank Force Lightning on several occasions. One was when he was being electrocuted by the Starkiller clone during their duel on Kamino. Not only that, but he managed to tank Palpatine's Force Lightning for quite a while before staggering and tossing him over into the second Death Star's main reactor.
99thJediWarrior I wouldn't count TFU2 ending as "tanking", since he succumbed to it after awhile, and didn t even try to resist. Also, it's a game. The game makers wanted to show Starkiller's dominance in Force abilities by dominating Vader with his enchanted force powers. True, he didn't die, but regardless, it's a game. If Vader couldn't use Lightning because of his suit, I doubt he would actually resist it very long either. (I think he may have some electric resistance in his suit, to counter Palpatine's lightning, but I'm not 100% sure) If I recall correctly, Vader suffered Lighting from Sidious very briefly, and died shortly after that, not because Luke took his mask of, but due to the damage his suit took from Sidious' fierce Lightning.
To be fair sidious' lightning is the most powerful in the starwars universe. Vader not only managed to take the full force of a power that's been known to rip holes in the fabric of space but he was also still able to pick sidious up, waltz over to the chasm, and toss him down it... The fact he wasn't on the ground crying like a girl, like Luke was, is miraculous enough but to be able to finish the deed all the while is truly an unmatchable feat. There isn't any person in the galaxy beside post rotj luke that could have resisted sidious lightning the way he did. Him dying from it isn't a showing of vaders weakness... I'd say him NOT dying instantly is a showing of vaders strength
Wrathofrevan To be honest; I don't disagree with you at all. I just think that in a 1v1 situation, Lightning would be a really deadly attack against Vader, and could almost single-handedly decide the victor.
Antoine Bandele ironically, that's a fight we had a discussion about too. I thought the Djem So would even out the slight advantage his anger might give Windu
Darth Vader lost against Obi-Wan who is not nearly as strong as Mace Windu. When it comes to lightsaber fighting Mace Windu is one of the most powerful force-users. So this doesnt really make sense to me
I'm going to have to make mace windu the winner barely but I believe he would be able to beat him, his kinetic ability is superior to Vaders as he can easily force push a AT-TE without any effort not to mention due to his vappad mace is able to feed of off dark side energy, anger and rage to empower himself. This not only lets him be resistant to the lure of the dark side of the force but lets him use fearsome darkside powers, such as force crush and force grip/choke that other jedi would either be to fearful or unable to do. both of which he has been known to use such as the battle of Dantooiee he could even systematically disable a super battle droid by individually undoing all its parts in instant. I would also like to say that shatterpoint in addition to its main abilities shatterpoint was also able to be used in combat and has been used in the heat of battle several times by several jedi and sith. And that In addition to Mace Windu being the only jedi to fully master Vappad Mace Windu had fully mastered all 7 forms of classical forms of jedi combat. A piece of the lore regarding his light saber training Mace Windu was a formidable warrior and generally considered one of the greatest swordsmen ever produced by the Jedi Order. He was a master of all seven forms of lightsaber combat.
evan stokely My video rebuts all of your comments in regards Windu. Vader fought like a machine, negating Windu's use of Vaapad. Shatterpoint is not a trump card. It allows Windu to see scenarios but not the outcome. It's not uncommon for Masters to be proficient in all forms of lightsaber combat. What's more impressive is their application. And when doing that Vader's hybrid form is more impressive than Mace's use of a handful. You seem to forget to mention how power Vader is. His power in TK is comparable to Mace and his application of it exceeds Mace's showings. Vader's hybrid form was a mix of Djem So, Soresu, Juyo, Ataru and Makashi. We've only seen Vaapad and possibly Djem So form Mace. A little less impressive.
Antoine Bandele As I said I believe he would barely win and I have not forgotten how powerful vader is, which really makes me sad how he was actually defeated. In truth if vader had truly been trying to kill his son, I don't think luke would have survived the duel on the death star at least not in his current state. Especially considering that many jedi far more powerful and skilled then him at the time tried and failed to kill vader.
Yea it just doesn't make sense now Luke later on down the lines like during the Vong War is a whole other story. At that point he had become everything that Anakin would have and held all the power he would have as well.
Let's be fucking honest!!! Darth Vadet at the end of Revenge of the Sith was way faster and stronger than mace Windu. Also Vader is way stronger than Mace in the force. Although Mace Windu is a better swordsman, Vader is faster, stronger, and better in the force
wildthang32 That was when he was a human, and still MAce Windu would destroy him with a lightsaber. Once Darth Vader was a cyborg, Vader would stand no chance against Mace.
Because he is. After his duel with Obi Wan on mustafar, Vader grew in power in the force. He lost some of his potential, but he still became far more powerful. He also became a greater lightsaber duelist. There are quotes to back this up, I can't find them right now though.
Because Windu is highly overrated. And everyone underrated Vader "He is slow" and so on. Vader is only slow because limits of technology when Originals were filmed.
As much as i enjoyed the video I have to say that Mace Windu was one of the greatest Jedi to ever live and a renowned duelist to the point where he overpowered Darth Sidious - the apparent best duelist in the galaxy at that time. When he had his hand cut off bear in mind that this was not in a standard jedi v sith duel as it was anakin - a jedi and therefore the last person windu would expect to intrude in the way that he did. I believe that it was the mere shock of being betrayed that resulted in windu's break in concentration furthermore the argument given that vader didnt flinch when luke hit his armour is because... vader was wearing armour of course he wouldnt flinch windu getting a limb amputated is a bit different from a slash in ones armour. sidenote - im a huge fan of windu and after watching the clone wars series and seeing darth maul make a return do you think it is possible to see MW make a return in Rebels? I know its a long shot but time and time again the the clone wars we see jedi falling from a great height only to see themselves force push to stop momentum and land safely. Based off this and the fact that darth sidous didnt electrocute him not nearly long enough to kill him so he was obviously alive for the fall. Provided he wasnt hit by a car driving by do you think its possible he couldve survived and hidden during the purge?
Windu was considered one of the most powerful Jedi to ever live; his speed was not his only strength. He was the best Jedi to take on any sith in saber combat due to his fighting style he created. His force ability was only outmatched by Yoda. Mace was just an all around badass, and it's hard to bet against him versus anyone.
Forgot to mention that Darth Vader had the best theme song of all the Sith. +10 points
Nah duel of the fates is better in *My* opinion
@@JusYoru That's battle music for a fight. Not a theme for a Sith character.
Pyrela I have to disagree if you look up "darth maul theme" duel of the fates is there, why do you think that is?
@@JusYoru it isnt tho...
@@JusYoru if you didnt know dual of fates is the fight for anakins fate
vaapad would work great against vader and shatter point would definitely give windu a big advantage.
Shatterpoint is greatly overrated and too often misunderstood.
@@Tempest_Stream And everyone wanks Windu. Star Wars fans wank Jedi to death, and Warhammer 40K fans wank Space Marines tp death.
Not to mention force crush mace could end the fight before it even started all he would have to do is crush his control panels
@@Gooberexploring
No, he couldn't. Darth Vader has a Force-barrier, unlike General Grievous.
I believe Master Windu's Vaapad form will give him a small advantage over Lord Vader when it comes to a lightsaber battle, but Lord Vader has more potential with the force. I can see this being a very long battle.
"after Anakin broke his concentration" I see what you did there
;-)
Oh I'm sorry. Did I break your concentration?
I didn't. What's the joke?
I'm sorry were u finished?!
I can't hear u
It's Darth Vader vs Samuel L Jackson. Samuel L Jackson wins by default
John Porteous hehe
Unless darth vader is chuck Norris
+Alistair Pace I can totally imagine him saying "I'm motherf**kin tired of this motherf**kin Sith in this motherf**kin armor"
Darth Samuel vs Vader L Jackson.
i find your lack of faith disturbing
Im still trying to imagine 2pac as Mace.
Damn then Mace would have been "Dark Siieeide"🤟🏾 for sure.
I wish that happened so bad
Still would have been bad because of the terrible dialogue and script.
Nah, as much as I love Vader, we've seen plenty of evidence he was broken by his injuries. Mace Windu? Guy fought Palpatine on par. If Vader could have matched Palpatine, he would have, he had plenty of desire to kill and overthrow him. So if Mace can match Palpatine, we have enough evidence he's ahead of Vader. Let's just look at Shatterpoint. Even if it has no combat application, Mace's pre-disposition to that mindset would see him going for Vader's chestplate or chopping his limbs. Yes Vader isn't flesh, but when has that been an issue for a lightsaber?
Vader's no pushover, but it's quite clear he wasn't as skillful as Mace or Palpatine. He never met his full potential, that's a huge part of his story. Mace did, and was amazing.
Ikr. Maybe Yoda was better with the force but Windu was a Beast. Some people say "Palpatin knew Anakin was coming so he lost."
Lucas Himself said that Yoda is the only one who can see into the future. When Anakin entered the Jedi tempel Palpatin had already lost.
Btw I think thats why Windu has a purple lightsaber.
+Jennifer Schleei Why does Mace have a purple lightsaber, sorry I don't follow, explain? :) I know the official reason but what was your idea?
I agree Palpatine was beaten, definitely! He did a Cartman and played the situation as any shifty, slithery so-and-so will, but that was never his overall plan, if it was, he was a complete idiot. I get it, they wanted to play subtext with regards to the original film's Palpatine and Luke dialogue, but he didn't allow himself to be defeated just to turn Anakin, that was too dangerous and nonsensical. Also, from a thematic, storyline perspective, it makes sense for Palpatine to have some kind of equals, otherwise it's just foolish and noncompetitive, and serves no purpose. What, he was just throwing the fight against Yoda too? He had no reason to keep Yoda alive. He can be awesome without being the absolute best at everything and just "throwing every fight because reasons".
I think Mace and Yoda had more than enough talent, experience, and connection to the Force to be able to match Palpatine, because while he's an amazing antagonist and overall scheming evil presence, there's no reason to believe he was the best lightsaber duelist in Star Wars. I'm pretty sure his talent lay in his mind and his overall Force connection, he was probably the greatest Force user.
***** Yoda isn't ahead of Mace physically. Yoda is a far greater Force user, but not a greater combatant or physical specimen, obviously. Yoda was the equal of Palpatine with a blade, the very same as Mace, and in the novels and texts, like the novelisation of Revenge of the Sith, it clearly states that Mace gained control.
I know, everyone wants to ultra-hype Palpatine. But fuck that, the guy got picked up and carried like a baby and chucked over a railing by Vader. Where was his speed and agility then??
He actually doesn't kill the Jedi council members as fast in the novelisation, Kit Fisto lasts a bit longer. And of course, things progressed outside of Mace's control, but obviously he could track Palpatine's motion haha, how did he fight him at all if he couldn't?? That line was purely to do with the control being out of his hands, nothing to do with his ability to track Sidious.
Mace and Palpatine are equal, and Palpatine lost.
+Valkorion So its 1. Palpatin
2. Yoda
3. Mace?
"With a stooped, small appearance, Yoda may not look like a warrior, but his skills with a lightsaber were unequaled."
A Guide to Weapons of the Force
"We've not seen Mace fight yet, and we know that he's second only to Yoda."
Nick Gillard
"Mace Windu's fighting abilities are second only to Yoda."
George Lucas
"I'm like the second baddest guy in the universe."
Samuel L. Jackson
"I am not [Yoda's] equal in peace or war."
Mace Windu in Dark Redezvous
"Though it was true that he had slowed slightly in the years that Mace Windu had known him, Yoda's skill with a lightsaber was still second to none on the council."
Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter
"Master Windu was also known within the Order for his unusual fighting style, one that he developed after studying the dueling styles of various lightsaber masters. His attacks consisted of relentless, unpredictable blows, like shots from an autoblaster. Master Windu himself remained perfectly balanced and centered. In the history of the Jedi Order, only two opponents ever overcame him in battle. One was Master Yoda, who some said was the Order's true master of lightsaber combat. The other was former Master Dooku, whose own fighting style was archaic, yet stunningly effective."
Power of the Jedi Sourcebook
Regardless of who would win, I think we can all agree this fight would be beyond epic.
+Morgan Swift That's very speculative. But also there is a counter to that. When Mace Windu fought against Sora Bulq and Asajj Ventress, who use the dark side, his use of Vaapad didn't seem to do much. It's insinuated that Sora and Mace were using Vaapad on one another in their duel and they only fought as equals. In Mace's fight with Asajj Ventress the Star Wars fact file 108 reads: "Mace Windu had to use all his skills to defeat the dark side fighter Asajj Ventress."
I'd disagree with the fact file 108. Ventress is good, but not THAT good. I'd consider it another Mace Windu inconsistency. One moment he's second to only Yoda, the next he's struggling against Ventress.
Siddiq Ismail Lol you can't disagree with the fact file. :-P Just because Ventress could contend with Mace does not mean she was his equal. Mace just had to give his full attention to beat her. She admits that she is outmatched by him. It's not so much a low showing for Windu as much as it is a great showing for Ventress.
Antoine Bandele Yeah...
Let me rephrase that: I believe the fact file is inconsistent with other Mace Windu showings, though now that you explain it, I take it back.
Siddiq Ismail Yeah when you get down to it Mace > Asajj Ventress pretty much any day (unless she's on Dathomir with an amp).
Antoine Bandele Pretty much.
When it comes to Dueling Skills, i would give the edge to Mace. He was probably the best swordsman among the Jedi, even better than Anakin and Cin Drallig
Cin Drallig wasn't really that good.
+TheNuisanceBird well, i do consider swordmaster/battlemaster good..
Hans Klostermann He was more of a classroom teacher, not a warrior. He's similar to Coleman Trebor.
+TheNuisanceBird
You've obviously not seen the 2003 clone wars cartoon.
+Blackashi Seijuro Oh I have
I think one thing you failed to take into account is Mace's use of Force crush/grip. As it was done to Grievous (Hence the constant coughing), he could employ a similar technique to Vadar's control panel during the fight.
Mace's use of Force grip against Grievous was successful because Grievous is a _non-Force sensitive_. That sort of power doesn't work as easily against someone like Vader.
@@AntoineBandele that was a good idea, but that makes sense.👍
@@AntoineBandele yes it would work because the suit allows him to breathe mace would force crush it Vader is mostly machine he can not move any where close to mace windus speed mace windu would force crush him the same as grievous because Darth Vader is mostly machine that's the reason force lightning killed him easily one SHOT and why Darthvader himself being a sith can not shoot lightning lmao
@@evanabbott2737 not really, if that was the case then jedi would be resistant to force choke or sith resistant to abilities like push, but they aren’t, the crush ability would work on vader, especially the cybernetic half of him
@@cameron2900x exactly I think people just pretend Darth Vader is the toughest because he kills people but he can not beat mace based on feats
So. You're basing your assumption that Vader can keep up with Windu on a single hyperbole? Vader's never been that fast in canon or legends. You explicitly give Vader the benefit of inconsistent writing while counting it against Windu. In your Marek v Revan video you have no problem with Marek tossing around star destroyers but when Mace thrashes an army in the Genndy Tartakofsky cartoon, it's just too crazy to be true. You play obvious favorites in the assumptions you make about them as stylists as well.
What is your grudge against Mace? You did this same thing in his Dooku fight. Luke's the only master you've pitted him against who's got a chance of out-fighting him.
Mace consistently has been shown to be weaker than an army in books and comics even in the movies while Vader usually slaughters armies in all forms of media
@@Redoren966 Mace has also been show as the strongest force-wielder in all Star Wars movie/TV entertainment, period. He did things even Yoda couldn't do. The only ones even near on his level were Yoda, Sidious, Dooku, and Anakin&Obi-Wan. The aforementioned force-users were literally all on the top of force-users of all time though, as said by the writers and choreographers of ROTS.
@@TheStraightestWhitest ummmm no, that's just wrong on so many levels. one Obi-Wan is a tier Bellow Windu, Sidious and Yoda are a Tier Above him. he is on the same level as Dooku and that's about it. The Writers of ROTOS only took in to account that time Period. if you like, take Luke as a Grand Master his Force powers should be Considerably more powerful then Windu. there is nothing that shows him to be the ''Strongest Force Wielder''
@@coldrock6828 Grand Master Luke isn't even canon... And yes, Obi-Wan is on par with Mace Windu. The two always stalemate one another. Mace can't penetrate Obi-Wan's Soresu, nor does Obi-Wan have the power to do the reverse to him.
@@TheStraightestWhitest This is a discussion on a video focusing on Legends. When have the two actually fought? Because Juyo, the style that Vaapad is a variant of, is literally described as the one form that, if used by a master, can break through a soresu masters guard.
Finally somone who is not Windu fanboy but can really understand SW universe. I totally agree with Your verdict,
Mārtiņš Plūme This channel is for the non-bias. Yes indeed. This is a no fan boy zone :-P
Actually most channels who pit Mace against anyone always say Mace loses, so you're just as biased and nauseating as them @@AntoineBandele
Being able to utilize both the Light and Dark side of the Force, one would think Windu would have the ability to negate Vaders force choke.
Or that he would have the common sense not to continue using Vapaad while he is injured.
No way Vader beats Windu. Windu is more talented blade wise, and has more agility and force talent.
Ya Boy Trev Dean Vader is better with the blade because he fought many other Jedi finding out what from they use and then hammering them down with the form weaknesses his strength is too much for a 50 year old and Vader has taken out agility
@@emperorpalpatine7856 he is not better with the blade
@@emperorpalpatine7856 as overrated shatterpoint may seem... In Mace case .. It is a big time advantage.. It helps mace that he too uses elements from the dark side like vader into his abilities..
Emperor palpatine none of the Jedi fought after ROTS are on the level of a Prime Mace Windu at all Nd Vapaad combined with Shatterpoint is a hard counter to Vader who isn’t more powerful in the force anymore the only real match is bladework where they r more equal but maces pure agility Nd speed would put Vader at a real disadvantage
@@emperorpalpatine7856 those jedi vader fought could never beat mace windu thoe
Mace Windu is a god when it comes to bladeplay. Vader wouldn't stand a chance.
If that were the case then he should have stomped Grievous, Bulq, Billaba, Talzin, Maul and Ventress when he engaged them in duels. Yet he didn't.
+Antoine Bandele A little defensive about your opinion huh? lol
+Daniel McPeak he wasn't being defensive, he was using facts, something you failed to do
+Eli Veil Lol ok. Have a nice day ;)
Not really. Just seemed like your outlook on Windu was a bit limited if you thought his bladework was God-like.
I feel like Vader was highly overrated because he was in the moviese and he was the chosen one, he was strong and skilled but I really don't think that he would be able to stop Mace's onslaught, Mace was more skilled than Vader before he turned to the dark side and he was a far better duelist back then. His armour would stop a few attacks but Mace would definitely get through soon enough and his shatter point would make it even easier.
My favorite Jedi is Anakin Skywalker and my favorite Sith is Darth vader
xD
Makes sense
they are both the same person XD
Same
My favorite Sith is Vader... but I still don't think he'll win against Mace Windu!!
I'd have tried to study w mace if I was a jedi....before I go sith of course
+brandon roman You're portraying the stereotype man!... Now I won't be allowed to use Vaapad.
what stereo type would that be?
Vaapad=sith to be
only to master both the light and the dark.....and not always. vaapad just takes you close to the darkside. mace uses vaapad ,to masterful effect yet hes no sith
Okay, well I mean there is a higher chance to turn into the sith, and if most of the padawans who practice vaapad turn into sith, then the jedi order won't let anyone practice it :(
I agree with this verdict. Though mace is one of the best lightsaber duelists in history, I think Vader's force abilities are more nuanced and skilled and his lightsaber dueling abilities were on par with mace. Vader was definitely a better duelist than Anakin. Mace was exceptional, but most people don't get is that his win over Palpatine was real but it was also very circumstantial.
Anakin was pretty on par with Mace on lightsaber dueling abilities, with Mace edging out because of his experience. It can be argued that Darth Vader was a better duelist than mace as well, though that's debatable, at the very least Vader is on par.
Interesting analysis. However, Vader never reached anything close to his true potential. He may have good knowledge of the force but there's no evidence that he has more knowledge of the force. In terms of force knowledge and for powers, Vader and Mare equal. Granted Mace is not at the level of Sidious and Yoda. Neither is Vader. Since their force powers cancel each other out, lightsabre skills will determine the outcome. Mace is is a more skilled duelist. Vapaad is only effective against users who use a lot of dark side energy. I agree that Mace got amped big time during his duel with Palpatine as Palpatine had plenty of dark energy to give. As Vader got older he was more composed in his dueling style, but still very stiff, and was not as aggressive as he was when he was Anakin. If Vader choses to use dark side energy, he will only feed to Vapaad. |this is why I would give Mace a slight edge. If Vader remains composed, it will be a long fight and comes down to who makes the first mistake. I would give Mace a slight 52% win percentage over Vader. Both are relatively equal.
@@alzallas2302 You make very good points my man, but I have to disagree. Perhaps their knowledge of the force was similar, but Vader was able to use the force effectively in combat situations much like Dooku (hurling objects/projectiles via telekinesis), something Mace never really did, also Vader's raw force feats are superior to mace's (even if you disagreed with pre Disney Vader, after Disney acquired Star Wars he seemed to get a bigger amp), also on the point of his lightsaber abilities, maybe you prefer to use the term "stiff" but I would phrase it as "efficient".
In terms of dueling abilities, Vader was a superior duelist to Anakin, who lets not forget was a level 9 (level of Yoda, Palpatine and though not mentioned, Mace), only lacking in terms of experience. Now I agree with one point of yours which is Mace would get a Vapaad amp, but thats not the only thing that fueled him with his fight with Palpatine. Mace had immeasurable anger at Palpatine for deceiving him, the republic and his Jedi brethren. That kind of circumstance is pretty hard to recreate. I also think Mace's dueling style is a double edged sword, as it is an all out attacking based dueling style, which can leave him open to djem so counter attacks. I would argue that Vader's djem so style can somewhat counter Mace's Dark Side fueled Vapaad onslaught. It's also important to remember Vapaad was only fully achieved a single time (due to the circumstances I mentioned earlier). Just in terms of dueling abilities, they're the same. To me its very close and very circumstantial. I do agree with you on the point that the both are relatively equal and that it is not going to be decided by way of the force. At any given day Mace can win and in other days Vader will win. I give a 55% edge to Vader.
@@Muhittheman Agreed.
@@alzallas2302 Your notion of Mace is not at the level of Sidious and Yoda is off. Sidious was trained and embraced the Dark side since his teenage years. He is similar to Starkiller who was trained from a child by Darth Vander. Yoda was 900 years, so acourse, he would be naturally more power. If Mace had embraced and immersed himself in the darkside when he fought Sidious, he would have made quick work of Sidious. Also, Vaapad is a skill/power.
Either way a still black guy won....
+blahblahblackshee879 Nah. Vader is just a white Emo guy who dresses in black.
+WebVMan way to ruin it
+danny fonseca He's voiced by a black man. There it's fixed. Meery xmas.
That's a first
Close enough
Mace would win against any Sith Lord one-on-one, due to his use of Vaapad which allows him to gain strength form his opponent's anger. He even defeated Darth Sidious through this.
You misunderstand Vaapad:
www.comicvine.com/profile/silver2467/blog/mace-windu-vs-darth-sidious-what-really-happened/77247/
What's more, Vader did not fight with rage, as indicated in the TFU2 novelization.
***** Vader didn't go into rage against Luke,he was just caught off guard and surprised and decided to get serious.
***** If you are talking about pre-suit Vader, then yes, he fought with unabated rage.
Just as SuperMicklovin said ... Vader just got more focused, he didn't rage out. One does not cut someone's hand off with a precision-Makashi slash in a fit of rage.
If you are referencing pre-suit Vader, I agree. But the cybernetic Vader had his emotions under control.
That woulsnt work against vader in his later years or his prime like it did sidious
@@claudemaggard7162 Vader lost to sidious lmao while mace bested sidious easily MACE STOMPS
Join the dark side we have cookies!! who is with me?
Me my lord !
Go back to being on onewith the force Vader, you're dead.
Darth Vader I'll join you since I do respect you, my Lord, lol 👍, lol
Darth Vader in the light side we have wokkies
Liar! Baras ate em all...
While I LOVE this series, I believe that Mace was able to best Sidious because the stronger the dark side was in his foe the more Mace was able to absorb and use it against his adversary. Vaapad allowed Mace to do so and would allow him to best Vader in that respect
Where would Mace's back pain come from again?
It was to show he had a lower constitution than Vader.
+seth holland Thats racist you horrible fuck.
+Crave Freedom
I'm black.
I find his joke extremely funny.
Lessera I'm Black. And although I'm not personally offended by Racist humor, I have to say that strictly as a joke, it was pretty lame.
+No Bodies So you're saying a black person would get offended and murder him? Who's stereotyping now...
Hahah! Antoine Bandele, your joking right? Mace Windu, the Master of the Order, Second only to Yoda is killed buy Darth Vader? Look, I'm a big fan of the Sith, always have been. But I know that Mace Windu is nothing to play with. Only a handful of Sith would have a chance i.e. Darth Bane, Darth Sidious, Darth Sion, Darth Malgus and a few others. I know, I know, "Vader refined his style", but he still is a broken shadow of what he was, his own master repeatedly tried to replace him. Even in the book the Rise of Darth Vader it tells us just how far his injuries went. Hell, if you ask me, his prime was when he fought Obi Wan on Mustafar. Vader was a powerhouse, no doubt about it. But against a Jedi of Mace's caliber. He's not there. Had Darth Vader not been defeated on Mustafar, I doubt ANY being could stand up against him... Even Yoda and Sidious. He would have been the most powerful Sith ever. Period. He had the potential, but he lost it. Vader has powerful strikes, but Vaapad, plus the speed of Mace would be too much. Even if Mace employs, his knowledge of Makashi, Djem-So and Ataru, he'd be to fast for Vader. Mace Windu arguably might be stronger than Yoda, as he faired a lot better against Sidious than Yoda did, both in the movie, and novelization of Episode 3. If Mace can defend against the force attacks of the legendary Darth Sidious, (who Darth Vader while in his suit could NEVER go toe-to-toe with) he can block Vaders. I mean, Vader has a chance, and Mace isn't invincible. I just can't see Vader winning. And I think he's kind of overrated. Vader would have to fully emerge himself in the Dark Side. Which he never did.
I'll leave these here for you:
www.comicvine.com/profile/silver2467/blog/mace-windu-vs-darth-sidious-what-really-happened/77247/
www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=707837
Also, I would not put Malgus over Vader. Malgus was a more unrefined version of Vader. Bane I do think would do well against Vader. Sidious of course. Darth Sion maybe.
I would reply to each of your points but those links should suffice.
Also, I do not think Vader's prime was on Mustafar:
ua-cam.com/video/xEndHc0rHX8/v-deo.html
Antoine Bandele lawl referencing comic vine - a comic forum where fan boys vote for their favorite "fictional character". Get real.
Look at the points made in the blog post. Attacking the platform does not conduct a healthy debate, nor does it present a strong argument on your case. Read the post, formulate a opinion and rebut it. Let's discuss this people. Let's get out of this abrasive UA-cam mentality.
Yea, bro you verified everything I said. Mace would definitely win. Now if Vader had not lost to Obi Wan on Mustafar, Then, I think he could kill Mace. But he can't do it as a mentally and physically broken cyborg.
BEGIN CITATION:
Nick Rostu knew darkness.
He had, after all, stood with the Jedi Master Mace Windu against Kar Vastor in the steaming jungles of Haruun Kal. Kar Vastor, leader of the Balawai resistance; Kar Vastor, with his arm-mounted vibroblade weapons and his almost supernatural strength. Kar Vastor, stronger in the Force than any of the Korunnai, stronger than any in the galaxy, perhaps, save for the Jedi. Kar Vastor, so submerged in the dark side that, even though Nick had been only a couple of meters away from him during that final battle, eventhough he could see the man as clearly as he could see Mace, or Iolu, the guard who'd sliced him from sternum to navel-still, looking back on it now, he realized he couldn't visualize the guerrilla leader's face. It was as if the Balawai commander had been shrouded in darkness, somehow, as if the dark side of the Force radiated a strange anti-light. Kar Vastor had been the essence, the personification, of primal power, jungle savagery, and bloodlust distilled into flesh. Nick had never seen anyone or anything to match him.
Until now.
Until he stood, unarmed, before Darth Vader.
As if being armed would make a difference, he thought. He could be tricked out with wrist rockets, a hold-out shooter, a pair of DL-44s, and a disruptor rifle, and he might just as well be carrying a pointed stick. Vastor had been animal ferocity and menace, barely contained. He'd thrummed with the power of the dark side. His arms, legs, torso, and shoulders had been layered with striated muscle; he looked like he could have lifted a pregnant grasser over his head. One-handed.
Vader was as tall as Vastor had been, but probably massed a good twenty kilos less. He wasn't physically impressive in the same way; no musculature was visible under the black armor. It didn't matter. There was no doubt in Nick's mind that, were Kar Vastor somehow to be pitted against Darth Vader, the feral Balawai renegade wouldn't stand a chance.
The Force was powerful in Vader; even the dim wattage of Nick's connection could feel that. It was far more powerful than it had been in Kar Vastor. It had pulsed from Vastor in waves of fury, blasted like an open furnace. In Vader, it was-contained. Pent.
Waiting.
END CITATION. Source: Coruscant Nights
Let's keep that in mind. Kar Vastor would be annihilated by Vader. Let's continue:
BEGIN CITATION:
He extended his hands, and closed his eyes, and hummed, and I could feel motion in the Force, a swirl of power very unlike any I've felt from a Jedi healer-or anyone else, for that matter.
A streak of red painted itself along their spines, and a moment later this red suddenly blossomed into the glistening wetness of fresh blood oozing through their skin-and details, I suppose, are unnecessary. Suffice it to say that Kar had somehow used the Force-used pelekotan-to persuade the fever wasp larvae that they were in the wrong place to hatch: using the same animal tropism that draws them from the site of the wasp sting to cluster along the victim's central nervous system, Kar induced them to migrate-Out of Besh and Chalk entirely.
And such was his power that the entire wriggling mass of them-nearly a kilo all told-squirmed its way straight into the tyruun blaze, where the larvae popped while they roasted with a stench like burning hair.
In the midst of this extraordinary display, Depa leaned close to me and whispered, "Don't you ever wonder if we might be wrong?"
I didn't understand what she was talking about, and she waved her fine-boned hand vaguely toward Vastor. "Such power-and such control-and never a day of training. Because what he does is natural: as natural as the jungle itself. We Jedi train our entire lives: to control our natural emotions, to overcome our natural desires. We give up so much for our power. And what Jedi could have done this?"
I could not answer; Vastor has power on the scale of Master Yoda, or young Anakin Skywalker. And I had no desire to debate with Depa on Jedi tradition, and the necessary distinction between dark and light.
END CITATION. Source: Shatterpoint
Mace faces against Kar and loses. Mace states Kar's raw ability in on par with Yoda and Skywalker. Nick Rostu knew both Mace and Kar, yet he states that Kar would have been no match for Vader.
UPDATE: I'm on the fence with this verdict. While I understand what I was attempting to achieve here (establishing how effective Vader's style would be against Windu, and how inflated Windu's use of Vaapad is) there is still a solid argument that Windu would still achieve victory.
SECOND UDPATE: Yeah, Mace should take this, especially after reading this passage from Fightsaber:
"[Vader's] technique lacks the advanced polish of study with lifelong masters, but he wields his Form V power with utter confidence against Luke Skywalker."
+Antoine Bandele I know it wouldn't be a priority, but I would like to see your new method for explaining battles in regard to this video. It would be very interesting for you to break the fight down as you did with Ventress vs Luke. I still hold that Mace would defeat Vader, but it would be a hell of a fight. Vaapad was more than just form 7, it was form 7 new and improved, and Vader's anger would feed Mace. Vader would not be ready for a full on assault from a lightsaber form he has never seen before. Mace mastered form 5, Vader's bread and butter, but Vader knows little to nothing about Vaapad.
Form VII was already perfected, it just wasn't perfect for Jedi ideal. Form VII, by way of the Sith, was already about control (as per _Book of the Sith_).
+Antoine Bandele do you consider Nick Rostu's evaluation of Vader's Power in comparison to Vastor's to hold any merit in comparison to Mace after he states that he wouldn't be able to beat Vastor's power "on a good day"?
+Django_F3tt what are you talking about?
Nick rostu has sensed both Vader, ad Vastor's power in the force, Vader is much stronger according to Rostu. Vastor and Mace have fought before and vastor kicked the crap outta him. Mace even states something along the lines of him not being able to over power vastor on a good day
Windu owns Vader in a duel in any iteration of Anakin or Darth Vader.
The plodding Vader wouldn't be able to keep up with Windu.
Anakin Skywalker is way stronger and faster than Mace Windu. Also Anakin is way WAY WAY stronger than Mace Windu in the force. I would consider Anakin and Mace equals in swords play though... Therefore, Anakin Skywalker would destroy Mace Windu
wildthang32 Anakin and Windu were about on par speed and strength wise in ROS. Anakin was faster when he embraced the dark side true, but Windu's vaapad and shatterpoint counteracts this.
Sidious was definitely faster and more vicious than Anakin at ROS, yet Windu fought on equal terms and bested him thanks to Vapaad.
When it comes to Darth Vader, he was much slower yet stronger and his force abilities and sensitivity was very diminished.
So windu beats all iterations of Anakin
+Sergio Velasco
Sidious actually lets Windu "win" their fight so that Anakin would come to his rescue. Sidious wanted Anakin to think that the Jedi are his enemy.
When it comes to Vader's ability I see no reason to believe that Vader was weaker in the Force than Anakin. He is slower, but he is more trained in many forms of blade work and in the Force. The limitations brought on by the suit led Vader to perfect a style that fit him. The suit and robotic limbs also made Vader much more resistant to damage.
A close fight, but I think that Vader beats Windu.
Evan Schaefering This is a common misconception, Lucas clarified in an interview that while Sidious like Yoda is able to anticipate some of the future. It's impossible to anticipate 100% of what's gonna happen, Sidious felt anakin's presence until he was entering the building which by then he was already on the losing side.
Lucas further clarifies that Mace and his skills allowed him to grow to the occasion matching and besting Sidious, fighting him as an equal rather than a subordinate. Mace beat Sidious and could have killed him had Anakin not fully turned to the dark side.
Sergio Velasco
Lucas says one thing but shows something completely different in the movie. Sidious was able to engage in a 4 v. 1 fight against Jedi Masters (all of whom were council members) and defeat three of them in a matter of seconds. In my opinion Sidious knew that he could hold his own against Windu long enough for Anakin to arrive. Then Sidious could play the victim and turn Anakin against Windu and the Jedi.
I would have thought Mace would win for sure
No he should have won he’s faster and is a little weaker but can still rip apart battle droids with his bare hands and has an ability called shatter point which sees an enemies weakest point and exploits it not to mention he has vappod which would feed off Vader’s anger and mace mace windu stronger and kick Vader’s ass so not funny joke
Not to mention mace windu used force crush on General grievous organs and could do so on darth Vader’s control panels ending the battle before it even started it would be a white wash
Ben Lewandowski
No he couldn't. Darth Vader is Force-sensitive, unlike General Grievous.
Ben lewandowski even though mace windu did break and destroy b2s vader destroyed a droid that can react to vaders saber throw and destroyed the droid with 2 punches 2!
Ben Lewandowski legends show lol
Vader: What have a I done?!
Lol The ROTS video game makes it so much funnier.
Ya just random fight against Samuel L Jackson, Anakin's thoughts "I didn't expect Windu to survive that blow. oh shit". Windu: "Prepare youreself Mutha Fucka!"
Mace windu was one of the greatest duelists of all time. With that being said and vaders limited speed theres a good chance mace would be able to land a shot in and end it right there.
I will say that I really like your videos! They give a different perspective on the Star Wars universe!
Thanks John.
Thank you, this is awesome.
You are very, very welcome.
Antoine Bandele What I saw in the movies is Windu is Salieri to Anakins's Mozart. Mozart is younger, more talented and is being kept in his place by Salieri who has higher status. Because of that association, I feel empathy for Anakin, and dislike Windu.
Suntzurvr Oh wow really? I'm quite the opposite. I've not much sympathy for Anakin and I have all the respect for Windu.
Didn't vapad channel the opponent's dark side against them? Meaning the dark force you use, the stronger and faster Mace becomes.
Doesn't matter if his opponent is far more powerful than he is, which is the case with Vader. Proof of this is how difficult it was for him to deflect Palpatine's Force Lightning.
@@jarlbalgruufthegreat7488 But he used vapad to beat Palpatine. Who was more powerful than Vader. So I don't follow your logic.
@@xenicmarkMace Windu barely beat him, plus, Vader and Sidious both got stronger after the events of ROTS
@@jarlbalgruufthegreat7488 Obviously Mace would have gotten stronger too. But the take away here is he beat him. Whether barely or not, he beat him ergo he would beat Vader.
@@xenicmark he would beat Vader just post Mustafar, but not prime Vader
Nicely done! Darth Vader is a "Force" to be reckoned with Badum Tss
Think about this...Darth Vader is a white boy who turned Black!
bro I'm only 3 mins in on this video and already think this is put together flawlessly! god info good visual and good transition! I approve!
"Oh, I'm sorry, did I break your concentration!?"
+Morgan Swift That is right. Though, that's a bit different as Darth Vader admits that Luke was a legitimate challenge for him. While Asajj does not prove to be too much of a challenge for Mace, she just forced him to use all his skills.
Doesn't forcing someone to use all their skills generally indicate that person is a challenge?
Matt White Indeed. Asajj was a challenge but she was not enough of a challenge to defeat Mace.
Yeah but if Vader admits that LUKE is a challenge,how do you think he would fare up against Mace?
The point that i'm making is that the mere fact that Vader finds Luke a challenge is enough to question Vader's ability as a duelist but not as a fighter and vader may be refined but his incredible strength is what the whole suit was geared towards making him overwhelming (aside keeping him alive) and as you mentioned yourself,Vader could only use his speed in short burts therefore the question remains will Vader be able to hold off Mace untill he could release his speed? i think not besides he would have to get angry to unleash his full speed due the limitaionts the suit provides.
+Morgan Swift
*The point that i'm making is that the mere fact that Vader finds Luke a challenge is enough to question Vader's ability as a duelist*
Vader was 1 of the greatest Jedi hunters of all time, refined by decades of experience. Luke Skywalker had a connection to the Force equal to our greater than Vader's and after a mere 4 years was the superior fighter.since Luke is the most powerful Jedi to ever exist, Vader finding Luke a challenge doesnt necessarily mean he is at a disadvantage when confronted with Windu
Vader is too powerful, Windu loses...Vader disarms him, force chokes him to his knees, then walks away and Boba Fett enters the room...
BRUH MACE WINDU DEFEATED HIS MASTER THEIR IS NO CHALLENGE HERE SRY...
ua-cam.com/video/thsFbDtLrVg/v-deo.html
+Antoine Bandele U have a fair argument, however I disagree, Windu did deafeat Darth Sidious, I believe this is true because later in the movie when master Yoda almost deafeat Sidious, in all the prequels Windu is labeled the best duelist in the order. Making him better than Yoda. I think it was Lucas's intention for Windu to deafeat Palpatine. If Anakin came with Palpatine having killed Windu he could have just said Windu tried to kill me and he may have still gone to the dark side...
Yoda is the gold standard to all Jedi:
"If you spent as much time practicing your swordplay as you do practicing your wit you would rival Master Yoda as a swordsman."
Obi-Wan Kenobi in _Attack of the Clones_
"We've not seen Mace fight yet, and we know that he's second only to Yoda."
_Nick Gillard_
"Mace Windu's fighting abilities are second only to Yoda."
_George Lucas_
"I'm like the second baddest guy in the universe."
_Samuel L. Jackson_
"With a stooped, small appearance, Yoda may not look like a warrior, but his skills with a lightsaber were unequaled."
_A Guide to Weapons of the Force_
"I am not [Yoda's] equal in peace or war."
Mace Windu in _Dark Redezvous_
"Though it was true that he had slowed slightly in the years that Mace Windu had known him, Yoda's skill with a lightsaber was still second to none on the council."
_Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter_
"Master Windu was also known within the Order for his unusual fighting style, one that he developed after studying the dueling styles of various lightsaber masters. His attacks consisted of relentless, unpredictable blows, like shots from an autoblaster. Master Windu himself remained perfectly balanced and centered. In the history of the Jedi Order, only two opponents ever overcame him in battle. One was Master Yoda, who some said was the Order's true master of lightsaber combat. The other was former Master Dooku, whose own fighting style was archaic, yet stunningly effective."
_Power of the Jedi Sourcebook_
+Antoine Bandele Yoda is superior to Windu in terms of wisdom but not as a lightsaber duelist
"He's as wise as master Yoda, and as powerful as master Windu" - Anakin Skywalker
Facts > Opinion. Yoda does not appreciate Yoda and his talent. As I've already presented through several factoids (none of which you responded to), Yoda > Mace as a lightsaber duelist is Star Wars fact as stated by not one, but several sources.
I disagree. Although Vader never immersed himself in the dark side completely, there's plenty of dark energy for Mace to feed on for Vaapad.
So... I guess I'm the only one who is still waiting for a remake/rebuttal of this video of yours?
But I know that you want to stay away from SW for a while, and I fully respect that. Plus, the Avatar videos have so far been phenomenal.
"When vader was struck by a light saber, he kept going. When Mace had his hand sliced off, he yelled in pain."
I'm pretty sure even Vader groaned in pain when his hand was chopped off by Luke in Episode 6. Just saying man :V
+Madwombat San He just collapsed from exhaustion
Its a bionic, he wouldnt feel the pain lmao
That's impossible his hands are metal
I have gone back and forth on this one a lot. While I do think that you slightly underrate Windu as a duelist (Vaapad is a lightsaber style with sequences foreign to what Vader would know), I actually think that what gives Vader the victory is his force abilities. Great job on this one Antoine!
Vader wins, by being noticeably stronger and telekinetically superior, Mace may be SLIGHTLY faster and more skilled but it wouldn't be enough to give him a win.
Vader 7-8/10
***** We can agree to disagree
No
Lmao no
No
Da fluffy One PR yes
So many facts pointing to Vader being the victor but people still underestimate him to much
Darth Vader
Dath Vader is extremely underrated
I actually agree.
I agree vader wins I just think he is an easily superior duelist
I would say that if Vader's a superior duelist its not by much.
Windu is literally one of the best duelists in the order
Your knowledge of the Force is most impressive @antoinebandele.
+Logic783 Thank you. Not an expert, just a fan with opinions
Sad thing is, I used to RP Star Wars on AOL and I used to use various techniques that you mentioned and I bet half of the SW liking population never even heard of them. Ctfu.
I agree with this one. Mace Windu was very strong in tapping, into his inner darkness but, I believe Vader would withstand his attacks and defeat him with skill.
+ROBLOX Attack on Titan Not really. Vader was simply more powerful in the Force. If he hadn't lost so much of his body he would have grown stronger than Sideous. Which is why Sidious helped to engineer his maiming.
Also pretty much Darth Vader is a equivalent to a angry bowl :-) so I'm pretty sure he can use all of his hate and anger just to beat the crap out of the window man:-)
I agree with your analysis BUT, I think that if Windu knew either who Vader was OR what Vader had done(how many Jedi he had killed) then they would be enough for him to beat him, also if you are measuring Windu at his prime would his fight with palpatine not count as his prime, Shatterpoint engaged.
I believe that Mace Windu would get the same amp he got Palpatine and that's because against vader his sense of vengeance would be his powering force (both for himself and for the jedi order).
love your channel man also nice motion graphics
Thanks dude.
Mace windu is way better wtf
Why do you think so?
***** I thought Mace's death was confirmed in the ROTS novelization.
+aldo ariza Vader cut off his hand with ease, windu is overrated and Vader is extremely underrated
+aldo ariza Ive only watched the movies so not as knowledgable about this but it sounds to me like Mace Windu was lucky to put the Ultimate Sith Lord on his backside. And if I were fighting Sidious I definitely wouldn't be expecting or even want a "Jedi" to betray me. But of course maybe looks can be deceiving and Mace was just lucky and then unlucky in the force that day.
Vader at the end of revenge of the sith is way faster and stronger than Mace! Like WTF? Vader is also WAY stronger than Mace in the force. Vader's experience in dueling would actually make him win
I feel like they're so evenly matched they would end up killing each other
I personally feel Mace would edge Vader out now.
Antoine Bandele responding to a two-year-old video....🤔 WoW
Not very difficult if you use UA-cam's community comments (which are organized by most recent comments, not most recent videos).
Antoine Bandele It's just that most UA-camrs don't do that
Are you going to remake Mace Windu vs Vader ever?
In my opinion anything can happen in a light saber duel. After all, Obi wan Kenobi did beat Anakin even though Anakin was way more powerful and a better duelist than him.
However, the Lucasflim story group did confirm that they considered Darth Vader, Dark lord of the Sith to be the best lightsaber duelist in all of Star Wars
fantastic job on this sir. enjoyed very much.
Thanks Mr. Cool.
6:01 What's that music? It sounds familiar
Luke beat vader. Windu is certainly superior to Luke. Therefore, Windu is superior to Vader. It's what we in the business call algebra, plain and simple.
To be fair, though, your storytelling was well-done and half-decent in terms of realism. Overall, a pretty good video.
+RM Bee ABC logic never works out. Luke and Vader both held back throughout the entire fight
Well Mace, you put up a pretty good fight, unless I'm mistaken, no other Jedi has EVER caused that much of a problem for Vader, with the exception of Luke and Galen.
But for the creator of this video, you did a wonderful job on it.
I do have something I want to address however. When Depa got past Mace Windu's defense, he has just been in a war, like you said earlier in your video, Mace had been shot, had a chunk of his neck missing, and had not slept in days, not to mention being still battered from his fight with Vastor, to be fair it was astounding he was able to keep going at all, so I think he should have been given credit to his willpower and constitution, just as Vader did. But I don't think had he been in perfect health, she could have touched him. It was after all this happened that he truly mastered Vaapad, he admitted to always holding Vaapad back, for fear of turning to the dark side, but during his fight with Sidious, he admitted he no longer feared the dark side, and give himself fully over to Vaapad, that's what made him so devastating a fighter vs Sidious.
But this is the big question, Vaapad, I think you missed the most valuable attribute to Vaapad. His ability to feed off the enemy's dark side. True, he would not have been amped to the same degree as his fight with Sidious, but he wouldn't need to be. While in Vaapad, he can fight for nearly an unlimited amount of time, because his body is not getting tired at all, being recharged over and over by Vaapad. By giving himself over to it fully, I think Vader would only recharge Windu over and over, without even realizing it, and the more angry Vader got, the more force augmentation he used, the stronger and faster Mace would become, until finally, Vader would be beaten.
But all in all, great video Antoine, even if I do disagree with the verdict.
Galen gets the next win I think, Maul MIGHT be the better dueler, but Galen's force powers are top tier.
Thank you! Glad you liked the video.
I specifically leave out his ability to draw on the enemy's dark side, as he has not clearly been able to do that against the other folks who fought during the Clone Wars. The only example we have of him using Vaapad to its fullest extent is with Sidious and here is why.
To successfully employ Vaapad one must first draw from their *own* dark side. Then and only then can they become a conduit, a channel for both combatants. The reason Mace Windu was able to contend with Sidious is because he felt betrayed. Mace Windu loved nothing else, no woman, no life of his own, no world possessions. His one and true love was the Republic, and what he stood for. When Anakin divuldged the truth about Palpatine it crushed Windu.
BEGIN CITATION:
Because Mace, too, has an attachment. Mace has a secret love. Mace Windu loves the Republic.
Many of his students quote him to students of their own: "Jedi do not fight for peace. That's only a slogan, and is as misleading as slogans always are. Jedi fight for civilization, because only civilization creates peace."
For Mace Windu, for all his life, for all the lives of a thousand years of Jedi before him, true civilization has had only one true name: the Republic.
He has given his life in the service of his love. He has taken lives in its service, and lost the lives of innocents. He has seen beings that he cares for maimed, and killed, and sometimes worse: sometimes so broken by the horror of the struggle that their only answer was to commit horrors greater still.
And because of that love now, here, in this instant, Anakin Skywalker has nine words for him that shred his heart, burn its pieces, and feed him its smoking ashes.
Palpatine is Sidious. The Chancellor is the Sith Lord.
He doesn't even hear the words, not really; their true meaning is too large for his mind gather in all at once.
They mean that all he's done, and all that has been done to him-
That all the Order has accomplished, all it has suffered-
All the Galaxy itself has gone through, all the years of suffering and slaughter, the death of entire planets-
Has all been for nothing.
Because it was all done to save the Republic.
Which was already gone.
Which had already fallen.
The corpse of which had been defended only by a Jedi Order that was now under the command of a Dark Lord of the Sith. Mace Windu's entire existence has become crystal so shot-through with flaws that the hammer of those nine words has crushed him to sand.
(and later ...)
Sinking into Vaapad, Mace Windu fought for his life. More than his life: each whirl of blade and whipcrack of lightning was a strike in defense of democracy, of justice and peace, of the rights of ordinary beings to live their own lives in their own ways. He was fighting for the Republic that he loved.
END CITATION. source: Matthew Stover, Revenge of the Sith
Once Windu could feed on that he was able to fight Sidious as an equal. If he innately had the skill all the time then he would have been able to save Agen Kolar and Saesee Tiin, Tiin, whom he fought equal with before.
Both Kit Fisto and Windu didn't even see Agen and Saesee being killed. Sidious was that fast. But once Mace successfully fell into Vaapad it drew trouble for Sidious.
But this was a one-time amp. Windu was personally hurt in this fight and he was fighting a personal fight. He would not have that same engagement with any other foe. He may receive a small boost from Darth Vader, as he is the face of the new Empire, but it certainly not be to the same extent.
Wouldnt his anger against Anakin aka Darth Vader be the same or even harsher than it was against Sidious. It was after all Darth Vader who murdered all those jedi in order 66. Unless you are suggesting that Mace had no knowledge of who Vader was or what his previous feats were. I dont think this is true. Even if Mace didnt know Vader was Anakin he would still have the knowledge that Vader carried out most of order 66. His rage against someone like vader would give him the power to use Vaapad to its fullest extent.
Anther thing is that Anakin knew much about Mace as he was a Jedi Knight when Mace was a master. I still believe Darth wins this fight but I think Mace's Vaapad would be as strong as it was against Sidious.
***** It's different. Palpatine was the the Republic. Mace was fighting *for* Palpatine and he realized his leader was his enemy. That sort of betrayal brings out a different kind of passion out of a warrior.
Sorry messed up.
Antoine Bandele
I understand your opinion, thanks for taking the time to write it. Its nice to be able to debate a little, and not have it turn into a "YOUR SO STUPID!!!!" But I agree with all your logic save for one point, Mace had never truly used Vaapad to its highest level, until he fought Sidious that night, then it even said in the book.
"Anakin could feel how the Force fed upon the shadow's murderous exaltation; he could feel fury spray into the Force though some poisonous abscess had crested in both their hearts. There was no Jedi restraint here. Mace Windu was cutting loose.
Mace was deep in it now: submerged in Vaapad, swallowed by it, he no longer truly existed as an independent being. Vaapad is a channel for darkness, and that darkness flowed both ways. He accepted the furious speed of the Sith Lord, drew the shadow's rage and power into his inmost center-
And let it fountain out again. He reflected the fury upon its source as a lightsaber redirects a blaster bolt.
There was a time when Mace Windu had feared the power of the dark; there was a time when he had feared the darkness in himself. But the Clone Wars had given him a gift of understanding: on a world called Haruun Kal, he had faced his darkness and had learned that the power of darkness is not to be feared. He had learned that it is fear that gives the darkness power. He was not afraid. The darkness had no power over him. But-
Neither did he have power over it.
Vaapad made him an open channel, half of a superconducting loop completed by the shadow; they became a standing wave of battle that expanded into every cubic centimeter of the Chancellor's office. There was no scrap of carpet nor shred of chair that might not at any second disintegrate in flares of red or purple; lampstands became brief shields, sliced into segments that whirled through the air; couches became terrain to be climbed for advantage or overleapt in retreat. But there was still only the cycle of power, the endless loop, no wound taken on either side, not even the possibility of fatigue."
Mace allowed Vaapad to take him over, he was always afraid to do this before, because he feared turning to the darkside, but from what he learned in Shatterpoint, he was no longer afraid, and this was the first time Mace truly let loose since that time. It leads me to believe this is the next level of Vaapad, or if you will, Vaapads true power.
Vader's exposed control panel is as terrible of a design flaw as the Death Star's thermal exhaust port. The Empire's got some poorly selected engineers...also how "canon" is that scene from Star Wars Clone Wars where Windu takes on an entire army of Super Battle Droids? Because you mentioned that his use of Vaapad would only allow for short bursts of energy but I interpret that Clone Wars scene as a huge feat in stamina, enough to last much longer with that lightsaber combat form than possibly any other duelist....
Vader will lose
Anna Vamos Apparently not according to this video.
***** I guess so haha but also an overly convenient plot hole
Jamyang Pelsang I thought the only reason it could be hit was due to Luke's use of the force to direct it also the exhaust port was made by an engineer who from what I remember was forced to design it, as well as not being too keen on the Empire. I read somewhere that Darth Sidiousatine kept killing and reviving the designer of the Death Star(s) because he was taking to long. So I could see why he made a vulnerable spot for it out of spite and hatred for the empire.
As for Vader's control panel, it was a bad design flaw but IMO it was done for a few reasons. One being that if necessary Sidious could use it against Vader, and maybe it was placed there because something on your chest is easier to protect then on the back of your leg or up your arse lol.
hmm, I don't remember Luke using the force to aim the proton torpedoes, I assumed they were guided by a lock-on mechanism. And looking at the latest Rogue One trailer, Jyn Erso's father is one of the engineers, he could be the one that intentionally created the exhaust port as a weakness, that would be a clever way of patching up one the movie's supposed plot holes.
And lol at your theory on Vader's panel, that makes a ton of sense, Sidious probably would be cautious enough to have a "kill-switch" for Vader if needbe. And having that panel on your ass would make for some fun #2s I imagine....
2:33 do I sense a pulp fiction reference? if it is, you just made my day.
;-)
I can't hearrr u
Alloww me to retort!
Mmmmm this iis a tasty 🍔!
Check out the big brain on Bret!
It was interesting to hear your take on this, but I just don't see Mace losing this one. Vader would be the favorite against all but the best duelists, but I don't see him beating a top 5 duelist, which is about where I'd put Mace Windu. I'd agree Vaapad wouldn't give him the boost it did against Sidious (Sidious was arguably the best opponent for Vaapad to draw from given Sidious' Dark Side purity and strength), but it would nevertheless still be quite formidable and in my view enough to get a very difficult victory.
+freesid std My favorite Sith would be Darth Bane. My favorite Jedi would probably be Quinlan Vos or Mace Windu or Jolee Bindo.
Cool my favorite jedi would be mace windu or obi wan kenobi. My favorite sith are darth sidious, followed closely by vader and bane.
My favorite Jedi is either Obi-Wan Kenobi or Qui-Gon Jinn. It's obvious why anyone would like Obi-Wan, but I like Qui-Gon for very different reasons. He may not have been the best swordsman, but he was the true definition of a Jedi. The only other Jedi that came close to Qui-Gon in terms of patience and determination, mind tricks, and compassion was Yoda.
My favorite Sith is a tie between Maul and Vader.
Ironic, isn't it?
My favourite Jedi would be Yoda and Obi-Wan Kenobi. My favourite Sith would be Sidious (Palpatine).
Darth Maul maul is not you're favorite Vader is your master maul is not you're favorite Vader is your master maul is not you're favorite Vader is your master
i love your vs series
Thanks unal.
I do agree this would be a very close bout and I could easily see Vader winning in certain scenarios however I think Windu would come out on top more often than not.
First, where did you read that Vaapad is weak against multiple opponents? I have never heard of that being a weakness of the form.
I have to disagree with you prediction that Vader's rage would throw off Windu. When Sidious attacked Windu and the other Jedi I highly doubt any of them expected this and yet Windu did not get blindsided and remained composed and I think we can all agree that Vader's rage is no where near as overwhelming as Sidious'. Also if Vader does tap into his rage it would only be to Windu's beneffet as it would give his more dark side energy to draw from, not as much as Sidious but certainly more than enough to fight through any injuries like the back pain you described.
I also can't help thinking that Windu's strikes would be able too overwhelm Vader if used at the right moment. In Return of the Jedi Vader was completely overwhelmed by Luke's rage. Yes, Vader was probably caught off guard and there may have been some inner conflict that he was dealing with but Darth Vader is still a high level master with a ridiculously strong sense of self-preservation. If he could not adapt to Luke's sudden unrefined onslaught I have no doubt Windu would be able to pull off something similar if he timed is offense at the right moment, something I see him more than capable of doing.
The final nails in the coffin for me is Windu's use of shatter point, the clips of Windu dismanteling droids both with his bare hands and force abilities, and the clip you showed of Windu crushing Greivous' cybernetics with force grip. Windu probably wouldn't even need to use shatterpoint to see where Vader's weaknesses lie. Vader maybe a capable unarmed fighter but I can't help thinking Windu is much better. One well placed punch or kick could greatly damage Vader's suit and if Windu uses force grip like he did against Greivous, it's all over. I recognize Windu doesn't use his force abilities often in a lightsaber duel but his duel with Sora Bulq tells me that he will if necessary and a fight against Vader is definitely a necessary time. It would be as a last result, probably while Vader is hurling objects at him. That's when Windu would reach out and crush or dismantle Vader's cybernetic with his force abilities, leaving Vader open for the killing blow.
I think it's a 6/10 advantage to Vader due to his constitution.
The Jedi Path describes it as being vurnable to counter and multiple opponents: www.dropbox.com/s/yh4an44cr2yo279/Screen%20Shot%202014-08-18%20at%2010.01.40%20AM.png
Vader's repulse would catch Windu off guard if he was employing Vaapad. It is a one-minded offense, with no care to defense. It's not that Windu would not be composed, but he would still get hit with the blast no less.
I do not think Windu had a chance of overwhelming Vader through strength. His only method of victory would have to come with speed.
Shatterpoint did not help Windu in his fights against Asajj Ventress, Depa Billaba, Sora Bulq or General Grievous (per "Labyrinth of Evil). Force grip worked well with Grievous in the 2D CW series because Grievous is not a Force sensitive. It would be much more difficult for Windu to apply that sort of ability on Darth Vader who would have a powerful Force wall to repel such attacks.
Antoine Bandele From what I understood, only Juyo was weak against Force attacks and Vaapad answered that weakness by feeding on the aggression of an opponent and turning it back on them in a superconducting loop. Even if Windu gets hit with the blast he can still answer it with one of his own.
I never said Windu would overwhelm him with just strength. I said that he is probably more than capable of producing an offensive onslaught that could overwhelm Vader, be it speed or strength. If Luke could do it with unchecked unrefined rage I think Windu could do it too IF he times it right. If Windu spends a long enough time fighting without Vaapad then I think he could catch Vader off guard with it if he suddenly switch from defense to offense.
I don't think Windu was able to use Force grip on Grievous just because he was a non-force sensitive, at least I've never heard of that being an explanation. If there is a source stating that then by all means point it out.
I mention Shatterpoint because of it's ability to show weaknesses in the opponent (Vader's suit) but as I also said I don't think Windu would need it to see that Vader is more machine than man. For a powerful Jedi like Windu, that Suit is filled with weaknesses that can be exploited through the Force.
As for Vader defending against Force grip, I could make the argument that even if Vader does have a defense against it that doesn't mean he will be able to get that defense up in time. If Windu does it out of the blue then I don't think Vader will have enough time to defend and even if he does, who's to say Windu couldn't break through whatever shield Vader put up?
I don't know of any instance where Windu got hit with force choke so I can't say whether or not his shield could block it but it is a possibility.
Also I just thought of a possible theory to explain Windu's inconsistency in battle. The Clone Wars was a wake up call to all Jedi similar to Vader's cybernetics being a wake up call for him. The situations, though different had the same ultimatum: adapt or perish. Up until the Clone Wars the Jedi mainly had to deal with blaster-wielding opponents, not lightsaber duelists because they though the Sith were extinct. When the Clone Wars started every Jedi had to step up their game and I believe Mace was no exception because on top of the droid armies they also had to contend with lightsaber duelists like Ventress, Grievous, and Dooku.
That's why I think Mace struggled when fighting them, because outside of sparring sessions, he wasn't used to that kind of threat, but like Kenobi and Skywalker, I believe that as the war progressed Windu refined himself and got even better.
So many people say Windu's fight with Sidious was a one-time amp. I don't think so. I think that was Windu's dueling skills at their best regardless of whether he had the amp. If you give a boxer a shot of adrenaline right before a fight he is still going to have the same level of skill as he had before the shot. The only difference is the amount of energy he has in the tank.
Vader would be fighting the same Windu from that fight the only difference is the amount of energy he has in the tank and I think Windu knows how to pace himself.
savagenature1 Nah, Juyo and Vaapad held the same move set. The difference between the two is how each user dealt with the emotion needed for its moveset. The reason a Vaapad user was open to Force and physical attacks were for two reasons. (1) They needed to use a streaming Force augmentation to maintain Form VII's move set, leaving them open to physical attack. (2) By extension there effort was solely based on their offense, placing their whole body into a focused attack, leaving their defenses open. The logical I followed is that a Force wave from Darth Vader would throw Mace Windu back. If he employed Vaapad he knew he was sacrificing his defense, something Djem So could counter.
I only see Windu overwhelming Vader with speed, not strength. Vader completely outclassed him in the regard. In speed, however, Windu had that. But Vader has showed a capacity to defend against quick attacks. His use of Soresu would help him with that. Form VII could break Soresu through power cleaves but again, Vader would not break under Windu's strikes. Not saying Windu isn't strong, but in comparison to Vader her was not his equal in that regard.
There is not source on his Force grip but it's very obvious that is what occurred. Grievous is a non-forcensitive. Mace had distance. The reason Grievous could overwhelm Jedi without the user of the Force was because of his speed. Minutes earlier he evaded Jedi pushes (until he met Shaak Ti). Mace had distance so he could employ a Force crush on Grievous. But by no means would that be possible against Vader. Vader was a Force sensitive with still some of the most Force potential of anyone else. His Force wall, therefore, would be very strong. I've actually not seen Vader ever get Force pushed in any source. However, we have see Windu Force pushed by Sora Bulq.
Shatterpoint has proved to be useful against fodder (battle droids) and with Mace's amp (against Sidious. But even that is debatable as Mace was drawing on what he thought was Sidious's fear when really it was Anakin's. Against Force-users shatterpoint has not proved to be a consistent tool for Mace. His proficiency came with seeing things in broader terms, not the minute cracks of a duel.
(see above, I speak to Vader's Force wall)
That's up to you to recognize. I personally do not calculate Windu's one-time amp in any fight I consider with him, others do. You are certainly within your right to utilize it. I just personally do not. Also your description of Windu becoming battle hardened through the Clone Wars there would be a counter for Vader who would be fighting Jedi for several decades, though less and less as we approach the timeline of the movies.
''Before Mace realizes what has happened, Kolar, Tiin, and Fisto have fallen to Sidious's blade.''
Taken from The Complete Visual Dictionary
Darth Vader Yep.
I think mace is better
i think no he is better
I agree with this conclusion, I love Mace but Vader has seen EVERYTHING, and I believe after having known of maces style would have more than likely learned countermeasures to it as his time as THE Jedi exterminator
Why though the only known user was already dead.
@@masonguthrie1257 because its vader. He studied everything he possibly could to become more powerful, especially after losing his limbs
@@MichaelDouglas-24 that may be but how would he even learn the form when all know practictioners are dead and it would be pretty safe to assume that the jedi or mace did not keep records for how the form was used.
@@masonguthrie1257 i didnt say he learned vapad, he definitely learned the 7th form of lightsaber combat, but the sith version. I said he would have taken countermeasures to it.
I think you're doing a excellent job at these videos I'm going to subscribe keep it up.
Thanks! You should check out my more recent stuff:
ua-cam.com/video/lPVky2zoI58/v-deo.html
With all due respect i think you have a bias against mace windu. You gave him too little credit both in this video and in the Windu vs dooku. Windu is smarter than to just charge anakin with a sword. He could easily use the force to dismantle vader's respirator the same way he used the force to dismantle that droid in TCW.
TBH this fight isn't even close, windu kept up with palpatine while vader never came close to palpatine in power.
If I had such a strong bias against Windu then he would not have won against Malgus.
No he would not crush Vader's suit, because Vader, unlike General Grievous, has a Force wall.
You seem to have completely missed the points I made about the Windu/Sidious fight. For something more thorough:
www.comicvine.com/profile/silver2467/blog/mace-windu-vs-darth-sidious-what-really-happened/77247/
But I will be making a video highlighting what was up with that fight in the coming weeks.
Vader was strong against force attacks of that nature man. You cant just brake his suit with the force. Vader is too strong for that buddy.
Leon Welcome If that were the case then galen marek wouldn't have thrashed him so badly. Vader has not displayed an immunity to strong telekenetic attacks of the windu calibur. Windu has destroyed dozens of droids with the wave of a hand and demostrated the percision to dismantle a droid's electronics and bolts quickly.
Galen never thrashed with the Force, in the game or the book. But either does not matter as he was fighting a Vader outside of his prime. The most Galen did to Vader was throw out a Force repulse and crush him with metal piping. In the novel he straight up defeated him with his saber, no Force powers at all.
Antoine Bandele That depends on whether or not you believe novelizations supersede games or movies, which is debateable. I actually treat them all like separate continuities because they constantly contradict one-another. For example in the novel of tfu2 the galen's force waves explode the clone troopers organs out of their bodies while in the game he turns them to ashes. So all-in all I don't rely on novels.
Back to the matter at hand. Vader has won the majority of his fights through complex sword play. He hasn't shown the ability to resist force attacks of mace windu's magnitude. He's a sword-specialist who happens to be moderately good at the force. He is not a dedicated force-user like palpatine, yoda and windu.
Darth Sidious was beaten by Mace Windu...
Darth Vader could never beat Sidious..
So how dose Mace Windu lose???
ua-cam.com/video/thsFbDtLrVg/v-deo.html
+ΛNYHΛX I watched the video.
But i still don't agree that Darth Vader wins.
Sry for my bad english.
I‘m german
+ΛNYHΛX I watched the video.
But i still don't agree that Darth Vader wins.
Sry for my bad english.
I‘m german
That's fine. As long as you understand that Mace, by no means stomps, because he defeated Sidious through circumstance.
+ΛNYHΛX Darth Vader was (arguably) the star of 4 movies (the 3 prequels + Return of the Jedi). Mace Windu, zero. Vader had a destiny to fulfill, Windu was a bit role. The outcome would be pre-determined by forces outside their control.
You make a compelling argument but I think the battle could go the other way just as quick... No advantage... A game of chess... Anakin himself stated that Mace was extremely powerful... He admired Windu's power...
Indeed. There would be no stomp either way.
I think this fight, would be one of the closest fights in Star Wars history.
They seem just so perfectly balanced against one another, I *need* to see it happen in live action.
I'm sorry but no mace would win, windy could of used force crush on vaders control panel on his chest and then would have to wait
Slap Slap Slap Clap Clap Clap Force wall
Slap Slap Slap Clap Clap Clap by that logic Vader could crush Windu's brain.
He definitely wins but its because of shatter point and vapaad. Vapaad would allow him to use vader's own rage and dark side energy against him and amplify it. All without ever being tempted by the dark side.
This makes no sense because Sidius was WAY more powerful that Vader and Windu kicked Sidius ass.
ua-cam.com/video/thsFbDtLrVg/v-deo.html
comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/silver2467/blog/mace-windu-vs-darth-sidious-what-really-happened-r/77247/
Antoine Bandele Bro you can send all the links you like but links, theories, and excuses can't and won't change history. It happened and we all saw it happen. All the excuses in the world can't change history unless you have a time machine. Sry.
+Eaglewatch7dv Windu actually did get his arm chopped off by Darth Vader and got thrown out a window. You are the one denying "history". In fact I suspect Lucas gave Windu his name for the very purpose to have him get thrown out a window. Ironic, Windu was actually the one who broke the window too, and he fell out of it
Sidious was way more powerful than Vader because Vader lost all his limbs and his whole body got burned. Vader's strength with the force got diminished a lot.
Darth Vader is Star wars. The force has a destiny for him. Besides mace windu got his hand cut off lighting burned to the point of death and fell out a window. Darth Vader "You're not mace windu the master anymore oldman, the jedi are dead!" What he would say haha
You need to make a Yoda vs Sidious versus series. Even though this fight was still showcased in the movie, i think the community would still want to know your opinion in that subject
I still think mace would win,so if you add actions of EU Vader then you have add all actions displayed by mace in every format. Since he is a small character in the big Star Wars world, cartoons and books count. Anyway I don't believe mace would use vapaad only he would transfer from multiple forms which was master of all of them. Have safe and good weekend.
I fucking hope in Rogue One that Vader is badass and quick with all new effects and cgi so people can actually see what he is really capable of. I mean dayum some people are just ignorant of the fact his movies were in from 1977-1983 and for their time they were insane. It was just bad technique and choreography that let those duels down. Go read the bloody comics before you say anything about Vader being hindered by his suit and his force powers being weakened because he had less "midiclorians". He was fucking fast and even stronger than Anakin in the force. It was just the OT that let his character down in that respect.
Thats my daily rant down i might just go do something else now
This comment yes
While I would definetly disagree that the duels in the originals were terrible by any sort, I would agree that if Luke or Vader were introduced in a more modern film, they would outshine any other characters in terms of skill and power simply through more modern effects and crisp imagery. I hate it when people place Luke and Vader on a smaller pedestal, simply because they hold a distorted view of Jedi combat (blame the prequels). We'll have to see wether Rogue One can do such
+Reality-Gamer As of before the new stuff about Lord Vader came out, the general concession was Lord Vader was weak due to his partial 'borg conversion "crippled" him.
***** I never have or will doubt Lord Vader's abilities. Through all the Vader Haters for years, I stood firm in my support The Dark Lord. Look at my at my pic. LOL
I don't actually believe he is a shadow of himself, like a lot think. I actually believe he became stronger Post Mustafar. There is not one other Sith Lord out there in Cannon or EU that I personally believe would beat Lord Vader.
I am not in that Camp that believes Lord Vader could not defend against Force Lightning. He defended against it with his fight with Dooku as Anakin. Don't believe that would be something that he would of forgot. More so after his conversion.
Sorry man. Mace Windu is going to take this one. I like your analysis of Vader but he isn't in the same league as Windu. It's pretty much NCAA DI vs NCAA DII/DIII.
George Lucas said himself Vader is 80% of Palpatine. Now, I watch mma, so I understand fighter math doesn't always work but a 20% difference is HUGE. That's an A+ student vs. a B-/C+ student.
Mace beat Palpatine. I'd estimate Mace is at from 95% to 110% of Palpatine. 95 assuming Palps threw the fight and 110 assuming Mace beat him for real.
On top, Vaders got too many weaknesses that can be exploited. It's impressive what Vader did to overcome his weakness but he's no where close to Mace. That's why Palps keeps trying to replace him with Starkiller and Luke.
I'd say half the Clone Wars Jedi council (Yoda, Windu, Kenobi, Fisto, Kolar, Koon) and Dooku could take Vader at least 6/10. Palpatine reassures himself in the novel by saying Vaders mutilation is not that bad because there is no one left to challenge him.
urliltyger www.comicvine.com/profile/silver2467/blog/mace-windu-vs-darth-sidious-what-really-happened/77247/
mmm I actually read Matt Stovers EPS III book quite a few times. I have it actually. I like it far better than the actual movie. I just don't quite agree with some of the conclusions the blogger drew up.
While it is true that Mace got a Vaapad "power boost" per say given the circumstances, that does not mean that the state of mind and motivation cannot be replicated. Vaapad will always be there.
Either way, I believe Mace is up there with Palpatine. He won't win 10/10 but he'll at the very least get 3 or 4/10. Vader would lose to Palps 10/10
Also the blogger does this: he uses Matt Stover's book for part of his analysis and then he uses the actual movie for the other part. In his blog, he says Tiin, Fisto, and Kolar fell within an instant due to Palp's prowess. That only happens in the movie. In the book, Palpatine used his acting to distract Tiin with words and moved in for a cheap shot kill. Fisto lasted for a long time before being beheaded off screen.
That's why that blog just doesn't do it for me. Lots of inconsistencies. :/
oh, I see an counter to my argument. I guess if we went off of Matt Stover's book and not the movie, you could argue Fisto helped Windu tire out Palpatine before dying. Well either way, in both book and movie, Palpatine was so exhausted after the fight, it took him a while to get up. At that high level, you'd be able to control your stamina very well. If Windu was significantly weaker than Palpatine, he wouldn't be that tired.
Palpatine was not that exhausted when taking out Luke, Starkiller, or Vader.
urliltyger I don't see Palpatine taking out Windu easily.
I would definitely pick up Matt Stover's episode 3 novel if you haven't already. It's great! Better than the movie. It gets really philosophical like you do. I think you would like it
I am not making a case for either team here. However, I have to say that those who claim Vaapad can defeat Vader or that he can defeat Vader because he can defeat Palpatine gets things wrong. Firstly, Vaapad is not just a fighting style but a Force ability. Against Palpatine, Windu had an inherent darkness and anger (as seen in the Revenge of the Sith Novelization) and because he had a cycle of power with the pure darkness of Sidious. This was why he defeated Palpatine, because he essentially matched his speed through unleashing his anger. As read in the Novelization it said “.There was no Jedi restraint here. Mace Windu was cutting loose. Mace was deep in it now; submerged in Vaapad, swallowed by it, he no longer existed as an independent being.” This alludes the idea that Mace tapped completely into the dark side. This is why Dooku believed that dark side Yoda would have killed Sidious. However, Mace would not have defeat Sidious if Anakin didn’t arrive and created a false shatterpoint, which allowed Mace to disarm Palpatine. This would not be the case with Vader. Therefore, one cannot use the reasons of Vaapad or Mace beating Palpatine to claim that means Mace would beat Vader. To tell the truth, Mace would defeat Vader blade to blade. Although Vader’s Force powers would give him an edge, ultimately, Mace would win.
Vader wins 8/10 because he can use wind's blade work momentum against him and open him up and out forces him any day.
Other way around windu wins more often than he loses
Pre-suit Vader cannot defeat Mace Windu, he never really dive deep into his force powers and although being a great swordsman, Mace is still far more better than him in swordsmanship. But post-suit Vader definitely will, although not as agile as pre-suit Vader, he is still one of the best swordsman in the galaxy, and he’s stronger and spent a lot of time honing his force powers. The man was powerful enough to crush star destroyers. Although crippled but I dare say his force powers far outshines Mace’s and using the force as a weapon is always superior than using a lightsaber.
Vader would have definitely lost to Vader, because Vader himself lost to far less superior Jedi after.
@@TheStellarmanCo. bc he let Luke win, he was conflicted about killing his son.
@@mrpastanicknuggets7269 Right, he didn't seem conflicted when he threw a Lightsaber at Luke's head, or when he was taunting him about Leia, the minute Luke turned up and beat his robot ass he humbled himself and re-thought his actions before Luke would have to do it again
Luke was only a Padwan and he defeated a full fledge Sith Lord, Vader was more theatrical than practical
@@TheStellarmanCo. Not at all and he was going easy just like in ESB, he was always conflicted about making his turn to the darkside. That's why he was not fully immersed in the darkside and palps even stated that vader could kill him but knew he wouldn't attempt it. He would destroy Luke in ROTJ but obviously prime Luke would beat vader, and he threw his lightsaber bc he knew he would dogde it, it's not like he was a noob at lightsaber combat/the force. And he knew that luke was trained by obi wan who beat him earlier so you tell me.
@@mrpastanicknuggets7269 You making excuses
"palps even stated that vader could kill him but knew he wouldn't attempt it."
Vader was NO match for Palpatine so Vader could Never win even if he did challenge him which is why he needed Luke to join him to overthrow the Emperor because he was scared to do it himself unlike Obi-Wan, Mace and Yoda.
He would destroy Luke in ROTJ
He didn't though Luke beat him fare and square even redeeming his father in the process
Luke did what Vader would never do, he actually fought the Emperor twice, he lost 1st time and 2nd time disarmed him literally, Luke was way ahead of Vader at this point in Power and dueling.
"he threw his lightsaber bc he knew he would dogde it,"
Another fan boy excuse, how do you throw a Lightsaber /lethal weapon at someone playfully knowing someone is going to dodge it?
If we're best friends can I throw my razor sharp sword at you knowing your going to dodge it anyway?
" it's not like he was a noob at lightsaber combat/the force."
That's the point, Luke kind of is still a noob and even Obi-Wan told Luke that he couldn't become a Jedi Knight unless he challenges and defeats Vader, so he was still a Padwan.
"And he knew that luke was trained by obi wan who beat him earlier so you tell me."
Luke was only very minorly trained by Obi-Wan, his main training came from Yoda
Except the truth, Vader lost to a padwan, the same Padwan whom also defeated his own Master, 1000 years of Sith tradition brought down by a Jedi less than 40 years of age
Luke is the hero Vader should of been
Mace beat Sidious one on one, something Vader was to afraid to do because he knew he would lose. After Vader lost at Mustifar he lost a huge chunk of his connection to the force. Yoda couldn't even beat Sidious but Mace did. This speaks volumes about his skills and abilities. I love Vader but Mace wins this hands down.
Man, you are so knowledgeable!
Mace wins this one Forsure, too many advantages for him and weaknesses for Vader, mace has vapaad and shatter point, using vapaad turns Vader’s strength his rage against him and shatter point is just icing on the cake not to mention that Mace beat palp so how could he not beat Vader? And no Palp didn’t throw the fight to manipulate anikan George said that himself and also it wouldn’t make sense how could he appear weak after destroying all the other masters at once in seconds?
Reloadmynine You actually now that Vader is called the smartest Lightsaber Duelist? However in Jedi Fallen order he was able to lift the power of an ocean. A F*cking OCEAN. Vader would destroy Windu.
@@KeepYourselfSafeO_o no he wouldn't george lucas said that mace defeated sidious so Mace>Sidious>Vader
ANARCHO-CAPITALIST PROLIFE VEGAN BLACKPILLED Yes that‘s correct. But what many people forget is that Vader is a better duel list that Sidious. So that’s why Vader is Windu’s equal. (In lightsaber combat)
+josiah jenks Jensaarai1 is right to say they *fought* as equals but I would not say they are exact equals. I'm still inclined to say that Sidious was Mace's superior overall.
Also I don't think Vader could challenge Sidious alone. That's why he wanted to recruit Luke, that's why he trained Galen. Vader would certainly be a challenge in lightsaber-to-lightsaber but he would be trumped by Sidious' Force powers.
He would be demolished by Sidious' force lightning alone.
teleportaat Yes, but not completely. Vader has been known to tank Force Lightning on several occasions. One was when he was being electrocuted by the Starkiller clone during their duel on Kamino. Not only that, but he managed to tank Palpatine's Force Lightning for quite a while before staggering and tossing him over into the second Death Star's main reactor.
99thJediWarrior I wouldn't count TFU2 ending as "tanking", since he succumbed to it after awhile, and didn
t even try to resist. Also, it's a game. The game makers wanted to show Starkiller's dominance in Force abilities by dominating Vader with his enchanted force powers. True, he didn't die, but regardless, it's a game. If Vader couldn't use Lightning because of his suit, I doubt he would actually resist it very long either. (I think he may have some electric resistance in his suit, to counter Palpatine's lightning, but I'm not 100% sure)
If I recall correctly, Vader suffered Lighting from Sidious very briefly, and died shortly after that, not because Luke took his mask of, but due to the damage his suit took from Sidious' fierce Lightning.
To be fair sidious' lightning is the most powerful in the starwars universe. Vader not only managed to take the full force of a power that's been known to rip holes in the fabric of space but he was also still able to pick sidious up, waltz over to the chasm, and toss him down it... The fact he wasn't on the ground crying like a girl, like Luke was, is miraculous enough but to be able to finish the deed all the while is truly an unmatchable feat. There isn't any person in the galaxy beside post rotj luke that could have resisted sidious lightning the way he did. Him dying from it isn't a showing of vaders weakness... I'd say him NOT dying instantly is a showing of vaders strength
Wrathofrevan To be honest; I don't disagree with you at all. I just think that in a 1v1 situation, Lightning would be a really deadly attack against Vader, and could almost single-handedly decide the victor.
"He hears a scream and realizes, it is his own" HAHAHAHAHAHAH so bad
Yeah sometimes I go to far with these descriptions.
@@AntoineBandele you did good dude
This is still probably your best verdict in my opinion
Tis a verdict I now disagree with. My favorite SW verdict is probably Mace vs Anakin.
Antoine Bandele ironically, that's a fight we had a discussion about too. I thought the Djem So would even out the slight advantage his anger might give Windu
What if Fin is related to Mace Windu? That would make him and Rey an epic team.
+EnGeeneR - Lando?
+Flameleon XD yea I forgot Lando
+Flameleon XD yes, Lando. To bad he is not cannon CUZ DISNEY.
Maty Navarro He is cannon
+vocasochodec he is? My mistake then.
Vader with his armor could beat anyone Yoda Windu Sidious themselves. Luke is his son and real chosen one. Vader > Anakin. Because experience.
It’s already been confirmed that Anakin is the chosen one George Lucas already said it
@@businessesgooutofbusiness8462 he became evil lord, has broken mentally. Luke in legends grandmaster
@@Alpamys_Baibaqty Ok but still George Lucas still said that Anakin is the chosen one even thought he turned to the dark side
@@businessesgooutofbusiness8462 its just words
@@businessesgooutofbusiness8462 by legends Luke surpassed almost any jedi Yoda include
I do not agree that Windu would ever be defeated by Vader, but that's just my opinion I guess. O.o
+Eli Mayer Not a bad opinion. I just think Vader holds certain advantages over Windu.
Hey and I can't hold you against that, we're all entitled to our own opinions! Love the channel though man
Eli Mayer your wrong but ok
There is a comic depicting Vader beating mace yoda and all the other members of the council (the council prior to attack of the clones)
I would say that Mace Windu would win easily!
SHATTER POINT
Darth Vader lost against Obi-Wan who is not nearly as strong as Mace Windu.
When it comes to lightsaber fighting Mace Windu is one of the most powerful force-users.
So this doesnt really make sense to me
TheGame8925 www.comicvine.com/profile/shootingnova/blog/battle-misconceptions-obi-wan-vs-anakin/96986/
I'm going to have to make mace windu the winner barely but I believe he would be able to beat him, his kinetic ability is superior to Vaders as he can easily force push a AT-TE without any effort not to mention due to his vappad mace is able to feed of off dark side energy, anger and rage to empower himself. This not only lets him be resistant to the lure of the dark side of the force but lets him use fearsome darkside powers, such as force crush and force grip/choke that other jedi would either be to fearful or unable to do. both of which he has been known to use such as the battle of Dantooiee he could even systematically disable a super battle droid by individually undoing all its parts in instant. I would also like to say that shatterpoint in addition to its main abilities shatterpoint was also able to be used in combat and has been used in the heat of battle several times by several jedi and sith. And that In addition to Mace Windu being the only jedi to fully master Vappad Mace Windu had fully mastered all 7 forms of classical forms of jedi combat.
A piece of the lore regarding his light saber training
Mace Windu was a formidable warrior and generally considered one of the greatest swordsmen ever produced by the Jedi Order. He was a master of all seven forms of lightsaber combat.
evan stokely My video rebuts all of your comments in regards Windu. Vader fought like a machine, negating Windu's use of Vaapad. Shatterpoint is not a trump card. It allows Windu to see scenarios but not the outcome. It's not uncommon for Masters to be proficient in all forms of lightsaber combat. What's more impressive is their application. And when doing that Vader's hybrid form is more impressive than Mace's use of a handful.
You seem to forget to mention how power Vader is. His power in TK is comparable to Mace and his application of it exceeds Mace's showings.
Vader's hybrid form was a mix of Djem So, Soresu, Juyo, Ataru and Makashi. We've only seen Vaapad and possibly Djem So form Mace. A little less impressive.
Antoine Bandele
As I said I believe he would barely win and I have not forgotten how powerful vader is, which really makes me sad how he was actually defeated. In truth if vader had truly been trying to kill his son, I don't think luke would have survived the duel on the death star at least not in his current state. Especially considering that many jedi far more powerful and skilled then him at the time tried and failed to kill vader.
evan stokely Yeah, that'll be a part of my discussion with regards to Anakin vs Luke.
Yea it just doesn't make sense now Luke later on down the lines like during the Vong War is a whole other story. At that point he had become everything that Anakin would have and held all the power he would have as well.
***** Not force power wise but they are are about equal duelists, its been mentioned many times.
Question. How come the indestructible sith amulet in Vader's glove never mentioned? I'm pretty sure that's a huge advantage in any VS battle.
What you refer to is non-canon (no, not Legends continuity, just straight up non-canon). He repels blaster fire through tutaminus, not his glove.
Mace Windu was the best duelist there ever was. He could defeat Darth Vader easily with a lightsaber.
Let's be fucking honest!!! Darth Vadet at the end of Revenge of the Sith was way faster and stronger than mace Windu. Also Vader is way stronger than Mace in the force. Although Mace Windu is a better swordsman, Vader is faster, stronger, and better in the force
+wildthang32 he moves like a robot and fights like one sense he is a cyborg. Darth maul had robot legs and he moves like an acrobat
wildthang32 That was when he was a human, and still MAce Windu would destroy him with a lightsaber. Once Darth Vader was a cyborg, Vader would stand no chance against Mace.
Well, what can I say?
actually vader is better than yoda because when he was anakin he was already a level 9 duelist
double cmon windu should've won
why does EVERYONE think vader is so awesome
Maybe because this is a video pointing at the actual facts?
Why are some people not part of everybody? Everybody knows for a fact that Vader is an awesome villain.
Maybe it's because he is awesome. He's the chosen one, he looks cool, and he's one of the strongest Star Wars characters who ever lived.
Because he is. After his duel with Obi Wan on mustafar, Vader grew in power in the force. He lost some of his potential, but he still became far more powerful. He also became a greater lightsaber duelist. There are quotes to back this up, I can't find them right now though.
Because Windu is highly overrated. And everyone underrated Vader "He is slow" and so on. Vader is only slow because limits of technology when Originals were filmed.
As much as i enjoyed the video I have to say that Mace Windu was one of the greatest Jedi to ever live and a renowned duelist to the point where he overpowered Darth Sidious - the apparent best duelist in the galaxy at that time. When he had his hand cut off bear in mind that this was not in a standard jedi v sith duel as it was anakin - a jedi and therefore the last person windu would expect to intrude in the way that he did. I believe that it was the mere shock of being betrayed that resulted in windu's break in concentration furthermore the argument given that vader didnt flinch when luke hit his armour is because... vader was wearing armour of course he wouldnt flinch windu getting a limb amputated is a bit different from a slash in ones armour.
sidenote - im a huge fan of windu and after watching the clone wars series and seeing darth maul make a return do you think it is possible to see MW make a return in Rebels? I know its a long shot but time and time again the the clone wars we see jedi falling from a great height only to see themselves force push to stop momentum and land safely. Based off this and the fact that darth sidous didnt electrocute him not nearly long enough to kill him so he was obviously alive for the fall. Provided he wasnt hit by a car driving by do you think its possible he couldve survived and hidden during the purge?
Recently I have questioned this verdict myself.
I do think Vader would win, but Mace would deal more damage than you said. I think Mace would take one of Vader's arms before going down.