I’ve got a lot of respect for Andrew. I like him a lot but a lot of these points sadly are just for Clickbait and most are moot points. Anyone who talks about payload (check the comments below) there is no stock vehicle that is superior in payload or towing then the Grenadier. To Andrews point about having a fully laden vehicle, does he really think this vehicle cannot travel fully laden? I challenge anyone to find and share a video on UA-cam where any other manufacture has fully laden their 4x4 vehicle and provided a challenging off-road/4x4 course for journalist to test drive their vehicle. Quite simply the Grenadier is the best stock 4 x 4 vehicle ever made. I challenge anyone to fully laden any vehicle and put it side-by-side with Ineos Grenadier and show me superior performance. Bear in mind, the Toyotas and Nissan have much less brake horsepower and torque in their stock vehicles. Regarding seats, Andrew you can always take the seats out and put other less comfortable seats if you don’t want them. However this car has designed for the majority of buyers not for 0.001% of fussy buyers like Andrew, which would be a recipe for financial ruin. Andrew has a very extreme specific requirement and no one is going to make a bespoke vehicle just for him only. Andrew also spends between 20 - $30,000 to get his vehicle modified after purchase The people that buy a Grenadier are high-end buyers and the only other high-end rival is a Mercedes G wagon. They are the genuine tier one 4x4/Overlanding vehicles that you can drive straight out of the showroom and do an expedition with no modification, other than lithium batteries and a rooftop tent and jerrycan holders. With Toyota Land cruiser and Nissan patrol you still need to spend quite a bit of time and money to modify these to get them ready for an overland expedition. Andrew puts his vehicle into a specialist where it takes 4 to 6 weeks for modification before he takes it on an overland adventure. watch his modification videos. Don’t listen to anyone who says you can drive a Land Cruiser straight out of the showroom and drive it through Sahara desert, Atlas Mountains and the west coast of Africa with no further modifications. The final point on 90 L fuel capacity is not far off the Nissan Armada at 106L which gets 462 miles on a Full tank Vs the Grenadier diesel, which gives you 461 miles. Nissan and land cruiser is usually have five or six speed transmission which are significantly more fuel thirsty than the Grenadier. With the optional extra fuel tank, These are carried in a precarious position under the chassis where if you are rock crawling you can rip the fuel tank open. Personally I prefer to carry 2x 20 L jerrycans either side, externally in a secure lockable cage on the rear panniers. Get what you want your choice, but is there a chance mate no mistake. The Grenadier is the most capable all-round over landing, 4x4 stock vehicle.
Like Andrew said, “you’re missing the point”. A new grenadier is $70,000+, and a new wrangler is $33k. Jeep have got it right A a new defender is 56,000 and a ‘97 defender in good condition is about the same. My wrangler has similarly held its value…could sell it now for what it cost new in ‘99 The key is the access to the base vehicle and the accessories market. Otherwise what’s the point of replacing the old defender…they’re competing with a G wagon instead
I'm an Ex- Land Rover Dealer Principal with 38 years Defender 110 experience - hundreds of thousands of miles towing with 110s. 2000 miles now on my new Grenadier Fieldmaster and just returned from a 400 mile trip towing a huge enclosed 7 metre trailer with an E'type Jag in the back. Gross train weight about 6 tons. 19.1 MPG. Hugely impressed. Its a tank! I've never towed with anything so stable. Its track, weight and tyre size make it feel like my 2016 Defender's big brother. All that said Andrew, I agree about the need for a stripped down Grenadier 'Utility' . There is a market for that.
Well said, me the same in my line of work towing plant machinery around, the Grenadier in my opinion knocks, the older defenders into a cocked hat, with out doubt. Safely..
All good and well but the pick up only has 760kgs of payload. Will proberbly tow even beter than the van as is 12 inch longer but payload stops it being vat reclameable (accountant still looking at that) My 130 defender with dropside bed had 1300kgs payload and tows twice as good as a 110 of whitch ive had a good few of also have a v6 amarok which tows very good as well well over 1 tonne payload with a gmv upgrade think grenadier neede to think about buisness users a bit more and shaved 240 kgs off the quartermaster
A basic troopy costs 105k at a dealer now, l paid 103k on road for a Trialmaster with all the trimmings. I don't understand you saying it costs so much. On a troopy you still have to spend for a electrician $110 a hour to instal a second battery, DC converter, spotlight wiring, ladder, Recaro seats, etc etc etc and end up spending 150k plus
While I agree with everything you're saying, I think we both "know" that all of this is very intentional from Ineos. They aren't ACTUALLY trying to replace the Defender in that sense, it's just their clever way of marketing this product that's close enough to the Defender to take advantage of that portion of the Defender's fan base which is now aging and has money to burn on a more upscale version.
Agreed that it is not a Defender replacement but the Defender you are talking about ceased production in 2016 or whenever it was and there was undoubtedly a business/financial reason for that. Any "replacement" is going to have to be different. The basic premise of the video I support, however.
Spot on. Given the stories about how Jim Ratcliffe originally attempted to restart production of the Defender, I'm willing to accept that he originally intended to built a true "utility vehicle" but that intention has clearly changed as Ineos embarked on designing and building a vehicle of their own.
@@SiCrewe That's fair. And perhaps from a more optimistic angle, if the current Grenadier brings the company success and starts to build a good reputation for the vehicle, then that could give Ineos management more comfort in pursuing a stripped-down version for the broader market. Let's hope that turns out to be the case.
@@camro210 Thing is, it's possible (despite Defender prices getting silly recently) for almost anybody to buy into a Defender of some sort. That can only happen because farmers, utility companies, the military and NGOs bought them for decades and maintained them to varying standards (or not) so they ARE there to be had. Sooner or later, owners will spend money on OEM stuff and JLR will continue to get revenue from that vast pool of used vehicles. With the Grenadier, Ineos has been forced to start from scratch, with (almost) their only source of revenue being new car sales. Maybe they ARE playing the "long game" and hoping the Grenadier will become as ubiquitous as the Defender was but I'd be very surprised if a company's management/shareholders would be willing to take that risk, or wait that long for a return on their investment. Honestly, I'm surprised Ineos didn't just scrap the whole project when they found they couldn't continue production of the Defender so I guess you've got to give them credit for seeing it through.
@@johncolley3317 Sure, I have no argument with that. But that young demographic is very unlikely to care how suitable the Grenadier is as a replacement for the Defender. They'll want one regardless.
Purchase a Toyota, change the seats for Recaro's and thats ok. A manufacturer puts in decent seats from factory and thats not ok? Seriously. Personally I've spent a reasonable amount of time crawling over the Ineos and agree, it's no Landrover. After owning an older 110 and really wanting to buy the last of the Defenders it took a test drive to tell me the romantic notion didn't align with reality. Ineos is a modern vehicle and frankly for those that want a modern vehicle of that type, it's perfect and those with them seem to like them. Not for me, but thats ok. The fact that we now have another player in the live axle market is a good thing, not bad.
Andrew, my wife and I drove our grenadier from the UK to albania, taking in many offroad routes on the way. We were fully loaded with a roof tent and cargo, fridge etc. There's no problem with suspension height. As for price, I paid less for mine than an well specced prado here in the UK.. go figure. You really have a bee in your bonnet about the Grenadier 😅.
UK prices seem to be different than most of the world. A 'Prado' in the US (GX 460) can be had for ~60k. A Grenadier starts at $73k and a Trialmaster easily gets to $87k. To compare, a fully equipped Jeep Rubicon with 35" tires is around $72k.
Hi Steve ! UK to Albania, ok thats a distance !!! May I ask ... did you had any issues with dirty sensors in offroad conditions, or "car-start-problems" caused by the doors ?
''You really have a bee in your bonnet about the Grenadier.....'' How many of Andrew's previous videos have you watched...?!? He's got more bees in his bonnet than a Capilano honey beehive...& that's precisely why we love & respect him so much...! 🐝🍯🚙❤
just wasted 20 minutes won't get back. Am I hearing this right.. the seats are too comfortable so Ineos should make them uncomfortable enough so they need to be replaced, it's not as cheap as a Jimny..... the overhead console is a waste of money ...for some. Click Bait, where's the video gone with the rant about Ineos not giving you a free Grenadier..😶
We get your point Andrew, but if you think about it. How much money do you need to spend on a 70 series to make it right. It’s around 100k aud for the vehicle and modifications, what if you can have a car that’s already built right for the same amount. How much do you need to spend on a defender? It’s all around a 100k. The important thing you’re not talking about is buying a used car vs a new one. Sure you can buy a defender now to 50k but to make it reliable and trusty you’ll spend another 50.
Before you even said it, I was thinking of the Jimny. In spite of market trends and conventional wisdom, Suzuki went all out with an honest throwback with some tongue-in-cheek humour and proven authenticity, with just enough modern amentity to surprise you. Whoever designed the Jimny should be handed the patent for the Defender.
@mindtraveller100 yes, and the Jimny has a 1.5 liter petrol engine, weighs sweet F all, and carries 2 people and their luggage. Hardly and apples to apples comparison. Everyone loves bringing up the jimny, but everyone I know who's driven one or bought one, soon moves on.
@@yuglesstube maybe I'm biased as a owner, but I've swapped from a commodore ute to a jimny. I frequently make 900kms trips from syd to mel, and its fine on the freeway. A little buzzy but I was expecting much worse. It would definitely appreciate a 6th gear, and a heavy load would slow it down, but as long as you're aware you're not driving a huge diesel it's more than adequate on the highway.
Well after 3/4 of a million miles in Defenders all I can say the last 2K in a Trialmaster petrol have been a pleasure . Yes. it's expensive but you have to pay for quality weather it's the drivetrain engine, gearbox, axles or the chassis( 3mm thick gestamp same as G wagen) The seats are comfortable its quiet and after a day at the wheel your not knackered. The engine is powerful enough with out being over stressed gearbox. a dream.And yes I have driven it off road in ice snow and mud didn't put a foot wrong. The HDC is very good no groaning as in other vehicles I have driven . Good on the road as any live axle vehicle . As a Pom I can detect whinging a mile off, the boats sailed . Why don't you just go and drive one(not on a journey day get one for a week or so) and then you can make your mind up if it's not for you all well and good .The seats are very comfortable adjustable fantastic heaters too. If you keep the price low all components suffer.
I agree whole heartedly with you comments, I think APW is wrong, and is after hits,Grenadier has just completed a top offroad rally in Poland, never missed a beat.
Love your content but this seems particularly petty and cynical. The expedition overland journalist taking on the grenadier SA trip is extremely well regarded and I have the utmost confidence in his honesty in portraying the vehicle and ability to factor in any engineering around the route. That seemed a bit of a cheap dig. I’d argue for a market like aus ineos wouldn’t want a basic model as who would buy it when the 76 is available. It’s a new brand in Toyota country. By your logic anyone can go buy a 76 and then spend $20-30k + to make the thing half bearable by modern standards (seats, track correction, sound system etc). Or you can buy the ineos which has the bells and whistles and you’re on your way. I don’t think a basic version would bring in enough return for ineos to justify or would be financially feasible for shipping. Im referencing brands like jeep only sell certain models in aus vs North America. You have to tip your hat to the fact the brand is trying.
I took my Grenadier out to Ilkurlka roadhouse and back along the Anne Beadell hwy from Laverton. Fully loaded 2 people ... survived to tell the story... some valid comments re pricing and accessories - i have used overhead panel switches etc, love the seats...
Someone sounds hurt they weren’t asked by grenadier. Starting price of 98 doesn’t seem bad considering you get a good 4x4 out the box especially compared to 70 series. You sound bitter, like you’re looking for issues because they didn’t ask for your feedback.
Biggest problem with the Grenadier is the weight. Harry’s Garage weighed his at 2,950kg with just the driver on board. Doesn’t leave much capacity for passengers and luggage. It’s some 400kg more than the new Defender. That much extra weight is going to have a negative impact off-road. I don’t think your complaints about the Recaro seats are justified. People nowadays want a minimum standard of seat, and that Recaro in cloth trim is just that. Comparing it to the Jimny is also fruitless; that is no longer on sale in Europe due to emissions. Until you have actually driven one extensively, then this rant style monologue isn’t justified. It also comes across in a bad light given that you asked to work with Ineos in development, and they said no to you.
oh wow I did not know that, I really wanted to know what waa the reason for his shift of opinion, first it was that it's built in France but this video was still a surprise to me how negative it is his rant makes no sense, no company today can start making something extremely basic, you could start an agricultural machine manufacturing company 100 years ago but not today it's also very funny how in the video on the updated 70 series he praises it to the high heavens that it has an automatic and is sad because the seats are the same old shit😂 and he said Toyota looks out for the enthusiasts because they added the narrow body indicators, even on the Toyota Gibraltar Stockholdings website they talk about how legendary the Land Cruiser is, and just copying an old design of yours is neither bold nor brilliant also as if every 70 Series doesn't look the same with ARB bullbar, ARB winch and all the same other stuff I just really really wished Mercedes still sold the solid front axle G-Class to civilians, that would wipe the floor with the 70 Series exceeding it in everything
Haven't seen Harry's garage, but I do know a lot of the weight of the Ineos over other comparable vehicles' is down to the standard options that don't get counted on other vehicle weights. There's a whole bunch of standard stuff on the Ineos that is add-on for most other vehicles, especially something like the 70 series, that is standard on the Ineos. Stuff like full underbody protection, front and rear bars, tow bar, sound deadening, roof racks, pre-installed wiring looms, air bags... Weigh a fully loaded 70 series and it will be touching 3T as well - my brother's 78, that wasn't fully loaded, came in at ~2700kg.
@@Alaster- I’m comparing like for like on the road weight out of the dealership, and in that scenario even with a tow bar, the Grenadier still weighs some 400kg more than a new Defender, 2,850kg vs 2,400kg. Don’t forget the live axles on the 70 and Grenadier weigh a lot more than independent suspension.
@@andrewhurstcars yeah that's kinda my point, like for like doesn't exist between the Ineos and most others as standard off-road kit on the Ineos is not counted. Along with the drive train components you mentioned, there's also a bunch of aluminium and plastic on the Defender where there would be steel on the Ineos, not to mention a whole ladder frame. You're better off comparing the 200 series LC for weight (2665kg, before adding off-road kit). Realistically, the Ineos and Defender are not really the same class of vehicle, and shouldn't be cross-shopped. The Defender is a tarted up shopping trolley, for people who wish they could take it off road (even if it might be better off-road than many), and the Ineos has been made as a work horse that can handle offroad. I got told by Ineos Australia, on their proto tour, that hard-core 4x4 use wasn't as high a priority to them as mines, agriculture, NGOs and commercial. It kind of shows too, as it's proving to have some design features that don't lend well to modifying.
@@Alaster- having been under a Grenadier, all that 'underbody protection is tin. I'll get smashed up quick-smart and not protect it, particularly not the low hanging wheel speed sensors. There seem to be enough people taking new Defenders on expeditions successfully, so maybe it is a well-engineered vehicle and your opinion is poorly informed....
Salty because Ineos didn't want anything to do with you? I don't understand why you complain about the price, its a turn key package. All you need to do is a drawer system, electrics and maybe a lift is that's your thing.... coming from someone who owned a troopy with over 100k in mods, the Inos is an amazing car and very well priced for what you get.
Andrew, a couple things. 1) there are already aftermarket solutions for roof racks, bullbars, rock, sliders, step rails, etc. 2) the original price for the Grenadier at least in North America was going to be at least $10,000 less but due to the outrageous inflation in the world ineos had to change the price of the vehicle to make it more profitable for them. It’s a real bummer but when you price a fully loaded jeep wrangler Rubicon X, it’s about 7 to 8 grand more but provides a full structural hardtop, more storage space heavier duty undercarriage, far greater payload and yes more unique feel so I think ultimately it is worth it. 3) the jeep JK has not been around since 2016. It is now called a JL since that debuted in 2018. If you don’t get your terminologies right nobody’s going to take you seriously. 4) lastly, let’s face it for all your talk about wanting them to put some stupid little seat in the car and have some burlap dashboard and make it ultimately super cheap and plasticky and crappy just to get the price down means that you’re literally an old ass dinosaur in today’s world. Anybody like you who wants to have a vehicle basically be exactly like an original defender that started in 1984 is seriously diluting them selves in today’s world. I guarantee you the changes that ineos made are going to make the vehicle a better seller overall, if you don’t like the fact that it cost too much, then it’s time to start making more money. Period. or just keep buying old ass cars and being your typical old man jealous self yelling at the clouds.
Way over priced no foot room for driver shit seats horrible driving position who wants switched up above your head need them wher you can see them they missed the boat I’m afraid KISS
How do you cut off the roof of a Grenadier and add a pop top with all that electronic junk up there? There's a reason my vehicles are 23, 25 and 42 years old.
@@mark2073 supposedly alucab is working on this as we speak, and if you don’t like it, keep your 42 year old truck forever and die alone sad and scared at change in the world.
Yeah strange i thought, he kept harping about "price for the enthusiast" yet most "enthusiasts" in Aus will buy a land cruiser for 120k and then spend another 80-100
Enthusiasts won’t make the vehicle viable so you have to appeal to a wider customer base, look 3 to 5 years down the road at the second hand market and that’s where you will find the enthusiasts just like the 79 series
Second-hand values for 3 year old hardcore off-roaders in the UK are absolutely bonkers, not far off the original purchase prices. I think there’s a deliberate policy to restrict these vehicles only to the wealthy, as another example of the ongoing war on motor enthusiasts.
I kinda disagree, look at the jimmy and why it's such a hit. Loads of people loved the original and the new one is basically a comfortable modern version that is perfect for the enthusiast to customise and play around with. I see more customised ones than stock ones.
@@aquilaphotofilm You can only by a commercial variant of the Suzuki Jimny in the UK now, due to emissions standards. It has a bulkhead and cage behind the front seat. Someone above average height will find it very uncomfortable if not undriveable. The new price is also high and second hand prices often above the original value.
Andrew, I think you should sit down and interview a business manager/accountant from LR or Ineos and see why a stripped-out low cost version is just not viable. If they can’t make money, they can’t make the cars!
there won't be a cheap car, prices for materials have gone up loads since 2020. Maybe the plan for the grenadier was to be 40k but steel went up 400%!! yet alone everything else and lots of wiring etc comes from Ukraine and Russia.
Other than you, there isn't an auto journalist out there that would give a positive review to a stripped out Grenadier. The market demands a certain level of fit, finish and features. If the seats are crap, there goes any good reviews from journalists and the car wont sell. Just about every review I've seen, from a journalist, they simply LOVE the seats. Who wants to buy a cheap vehicle with school bus seats, then go find replacement seats just to make the driving experience somewhat decent? Not many people want that type of experience. In your scenario, you buy a new Ineos, then spend months customizing it to how you want it as the seats are terrible from day one. Just about everyone wants a vehicle that is good in every aspect from the start. Sure they will modify things over time, but most people want a vehicle ready to go right out of the showroom. What you are suggesting is basically like buying a brand new project car. I think your approach is better suited to the used car market. Go find a vehicle you like that is used and needs lots of things replaced. Then you can custom tailor the vehicle to how you want it. Ineos is off to a good start and many of their accessories are made by other manufactures who know the accessory market. Take the roof rack and winch as examples.
The Grenadier seats are really good - supportive & comfy. And the overhead switches mean I can just bolt on the roof lights and elec accessories I chose - the wiring’s already ‘plumbed in’. And the build quality is better than the old Defender - it’s more like the old G-Wagon - really, really ‘tough’ - but safe as well. I think you should take one for a test drive, and then you’ll see that the Grenadier really is a no-frills, highly capable and customisable 4x4 (in base form), but built for the modern age, to modern safety standards, highly customisable, doesn’t leak or make you feel uncomfortable when driving. I think Ineos got the build and spec about right. And on the price, well, one has to pay for quality… It’s a ‘pass’ from me…
You don't get the point either. He isn't saying it's a bad car. Just a bad car for enthusiasts who want to customize their Ineos to their liking, who don't have a huge load of cash sitting in the back. Yes, they are customizable, but the absolute base for the start of said customization already sets the bar high for anyone to enter. People have to pay a lot for features they might not even really need, which completely misses the mark for a cheap buildable machine you can modify exactly to the specification you want/need. Yes, less than the new Defender, but it still isn't the same as the old Defender, which this video is all about. It's about their claim to have completely replaced the "old" Defender, which they haven't.
@@Dragontasticvideos Have you called them and asked if you can buy a bare chassis? Another thing, if you want to customize your 4x4 you need to have a shitload of cash. You think those leather chairs and interior came with a box of cheerios?
@@martinuso7446 so buy one for 50 grand pre pimped . or buy a bare shell for 30 grand spend 15 grand on it to pimp it thats 45 grand total and i have a vehicle thats totally built MY WAY and cant be had from the factory like that and still have 5 grand to spend on fuel 🤔
@@cordellej So you called them and a bare grenadier costs 30.000? Or are you just fantasizing? The last one is ok but you wont get a good new 4x4 for 30.000,-Look at the Toyota 70 series. What does a trooper costs? 70-80.000? And that's a car with nothing on it. So I think your cunning plan won't fly.
Having had mine for 6 weeks and doing just over 1K Miles I am finding it brilliant. Yes , it could have been cheaper and lighter but it is heavy for a reason. It is extremely solid and well put together. It tows fantasticly on and off road. What other vehicle will be one minute on the road doing 70 miles an hour in comfort and the next minute crossing an arable field pulling a heavy trailer. There is, in my mind, nothing that will do what I want and need for the money. Its not as cheap as many would have wished but the fact that it is selling in good numbers must be an indication that there is a market out there. I agree that the Jimny is very good and if it was bigger with a greater towing capability it would find a large customer base. There is a market for both the Grenadier and the Jimny. Horses for Courses.
@@BabaNovac792 Yes we will see just like any new model. The commentator has put his hard earned money down and will do that for the rest of us who are unwilling to do so. And I look forward to the results and hope for positives. Cheers
I don’t believe at any stage ineos decided to build a replacement of the defender . The truth is you couldn’t possibly do so. Since the defenders creation and evolution we live in a completely different legal a manufacturing principled world. I might possibly suggest Instead Ineos intended to take the spirt of the defender and apply it as much as they could with the design boundaries of the world today. I would suggest the theme and tittle is naive or may be there to provoke ! I’ve just returned from Iceland in the grenadier we where in a group with land cruisers land rovers and g wagons.. hand on heart the most capable vehicle was the grenadier…. Incredible engineering…But it does need lifting … next Job 👍👍
Scott Brady from Expedition Portal just took delivery of his year long Grenadier loaner in South Africa and will be driving North thru the continent. It should be a good and balanced test of this vehicle.
Brady is a lot of things but objective, intentional, and critical of vehicles and brands is not one of them. He can too many business interests between the journal and website to be able to be direct and honest
Andrew, I own a Trialmaster and am very happy with it (although I haven't heavily tested it offroad yet). I do agree that it would be great if a cheaper/more basic option could be made available to open ownership to a wider market. However, I disagree with your comment on Ineos closing the market for accessory providers to take advantage themselves. The roof-rack is an option the vehicle comes with but it is made by Rhino-Rack (not Ineos) and there is no requirement to purchase this brand as many others will fit. Also, the switch panel in the roof with blank switches will be very useful to me, as an enthusiast, as I will be able to easily wire up 3rd party accessories that I require. At present Ineos provides little in the way of accessories and if the roof-rack serves as an indicator of the direction they intend to follow it looks like the accessory market will be open to all (although only time will tell). As a Series 3 Land Rover owner as well I never expected the Grenadier to be as fully basic as a Defender but it is still a vehicle that is extremely capable, adaptable to what I want it to be but is not so gentrified that it cannot be hosed out when dirty inside like Defender.
Well said! Andrews comments about accessories were incorrect. There’s an accessory catalogue on the website but the aftermarket is beginning to offer options. Just be patient Andrew !
Watched a video the other day from a firm in Switzerland that already has an extensive range of aftermarket gear for the Ineos. Including a very ingenious roof rack system.
@@hmp125 yep Black Sheep, went to see them yesterday and they do great quality work with fantastic innovations....even though I stilll drive and love my 110 😉
After Andrew lost it over the beeping in a PAJERO, I take what he says now with a large pinch of salt. But still enjoy the traveling side of what he does so happy to stay subscribed. And before ya'll get upset, I paid to see the early release of him using the 40year old range rover to support his channel.
My take is you are still upset Ineos doesn't value your experience and I totally get why they don't want you involved in their marketing or R&D. You haven't evolved to what people now want, instead stuck on this old concept that simple and truck like is what people want. I own a older 110 and love it (still got her), bought a new 110 for my touring as I need comfort, more power, better towing capabilities etc. The new 110 is everything you need and more. Unreal what LR have achieved. People whinge its not a real defender - utter BS. The real truth comes to one simple fact; people whinge when they can't afford something and only few people get off their butt and go achieve their dreams. Move with the times mate, your ego so far ahead of your relevance in this industry, you are falling behind on what is now relevant.
As much as I really wanted a Troopcarrier. Grenadier for the win. Minus your 4 grand for acceptable seats in the Troopy the starting price of the Grenadier was the same at the time of my order. I still have heaps of mods planned but don't have to contend with major engineering issues like the underslung leaf springs, wheeltrack correction and no passenger rear doors. Also check out the location of the stater motor on the Grenadier. It ticks a lot of boxes and I bet for a lot less than an equivalent fitted out Troopy or 300. You'll come round eventually!
But the troopy is propably the more robust and reliable car. Its overengineered to accomodate minesites etc. I on the other hand already towed my first grenadier. I think i would gladly pay 10% extra to get 50% more reliable car.
You can correct the troopcarrier wheeltrack easier than the left foot issue on the grenadier (LHD)... also, good luck with that BMW engine and Hitech gearbox... lets see how many mechanics in the middle of Africa can take care of it...
So true! All these companies need to offer a bare basic model, who needs all these sensors and leather seats in a vehicle you want to take off-road.. these Ineos are 40k over priced…
Andrew, you are indeed a brave one. Thank you for explaining in depth the heart and soul of the vehicle. My concern would be in the drivetrain. Alloy engine blocks overall seem to have a shorter lifespan than the older cast iron versions. My guess is you would have a solid opinion in the difference of the two.
Absolutely hit the nail on the head Andrew!! It would be so great to see any manufacturer release a 4x4 with minimal electronics and unnecessary extras, let us decide how we want to build our off road vehicles. 👍
I'm trusting once they recoup some costs on sales of the current line up, they will release a basic pickup with half the electronic sh*t and much less expensive.
they might be able to in small markets like Australia, but european emission regulation simply means you can't have a big heavy car without a ton of electronics to get fuel consumption down.
@@ToxxicMafia not that many people live in Australia when compared to Europe or North America, and there is a LOT more competition in Australia than there is in Europe.
I have just taken delivery of my Trialmaster after a very long wait. Loving it. Those thinking it is expensive seem out of touch with what vehicles cost these days, also to be compliant with modern safety and environmental regulations a ton of technology is necessary which just wasn’t a topic all those years ago. I have driven thousands of Kilometres in Series 3 / Defender / Wolf and am very happy with the Ineos Grenadiers modern take on these vehicles. The Recaro seats are great btw - why would you bother installing anything else?
Andrew loves to spend a lot of money in little bits, not in one go. He is just jealous he did not came up with the overhead buttons himself and Ineos already putting in good seats. Now he has got no excuse to put in a full leather interior, like sitting inside a cow, himself. And that nags him.
I still have my deposit in but I can't justify to spend the cost for this vehicle even in a basic form. $5K for a winch! Certainly there is inflation but that's just wrong. I think the Prado 250 will take my money.
The fact people pay well north of 100k for a 70 series now in Australia suggests that the price is right really. I do agree bothe the 70 and the ineos should be more like 50k basic vehicle's that you build up yourself.
I have watched this channel a long time, but I think you go a bit far here in speaking for “the community”. I for one am happy to buy a vehicle that is basically done, and will require minimal mods. I’ve never liked having to pull diffs apart or chop frame mounts just to make a car clear the shocks and tires I want. Yeah, it’s expensive, but it’s not really very expensive compared with similar size vehicles that I would need to put a lot of time and money into to get them working the same. I do wish we had a diesel in the US, though.
What a pleasure to listen to someone sensible, unbiased and knowledgable. I’ve been going through reviews but they all sound like scripted ads, even though when critical, there’s something utterly annoying about them, some ‘watch the cool vid, get hyped’ urgency in the way it’s directed. Here I can hear an honest man, being on topic in a down to earth, yet entertaining way. Thanks for that.
For the US market I disagree with your assessment of stripping it out. The base price of the grenadier in the US is $71k US which is a lot of money, but realistically it's only $5-15k more than a Jeep wrangler Rubicon. From the onset this was going to be an enthusiast vehicle that needed mass market appeal to survive. The standard buyer won't be doing expeditions across Africa or Australia and most people that can afford new cars like this are going to have well above average income or wealth. The base drivetrain and body for the vehicle likely makes up the first $60k and the creature comforts might make up the last $10k. Nobody that can afford a $60k vehicle is going to want to give up those power windows, climate control, or nicer seats. The most basic 4dr Jeep wrangler is $38k, but almost every one on the dealer lots are $50k+. The new Ford Bronco can easily hit $70k MSRP as well. New car buyers want the features and Grenadier has to have broader market appeal than just wealthy enthusiasts.
My dreams were also crushed by the high price tag. I agree that there should be a bare bones basic version. However. I think we're making two errors 1. Overestimation of the cost for the fancy stuff. 2. Underestimating the cost of engineering this vehicle. By design it will be expensive to make. The fancy stuff is added to enlarge appeal. As the sales fugures on the Wrangler, Gwagen Professional and the old Defender suggests, the market for a true bog standard vehicle is really small.
Problem with a gclass professional isnt that there is no market here(germany) it just starts at like 50-60k euros...... a ranger or hilux is less than 45 brand new most of the time with all amenities; a barebones ranger costs 29k less than half the price of the gclass professional. And i know that they arent really comparable offroad wise, but most people would rather lift a 35K ranger and then struggle at some spots, instead of outright paying double for a grenadier or gclass
you can buy three Jimnys for the price of one of these. Don't tell me it can't be done. They didn't try. They lost track of costs when the Austrians started on the engineering. They built a G-Wagen. Not a Defender.
I disagree on the seats. I want to be comfortable, even while off-roading. Maybe they should offer an option of more basic lower cost seats, but I would still choose these (I'd pick the cloth insert version). I think these seat appeal to a larger market than just people such as yourself.
The price is high because regulators tax the shit out of heavy, basic, inefficient cars (at least in the EU). If they came to market with a 100,000 dollar exact copy of the defender, with all the luxery of the 70 series, you'd still complain about the price. But no-one would buy it, because anyone who can afford the grenadier but doesn't need the utility will go for the new defender, and anyone who wants to go traveling will think it isn't worth it because it doesn't offer any features, and it doesn't have a proven reliability record. This car is competing with the new defender, the sprinter 4x4, and the hilux/amarok/ranger based camper builds. It is not competing with old defenders or the LC 70 series. At least not for 95+% of sales ineos will do. Once they sell enough vehicles, and (hopefully) have a reputation for reliability, they will likely release a more basic version, in order to expand their market. Any new car manufacturer has to produce expensive vehicles first, before they can release cheap options, in order to keep investors happy.
As a car engineer I know what it cost to develop a completely new car. Safety, emissions, security, reliability are so expenive to achieve for a new car. On top the build a very special type of car. How many cars are on the market with a ladder frame, solid axels, coil springs, lockers...? And at the end of the day you have place your car in the world wide market. Sameone has to pay for all the development because as enthusiastic as they are, they have to pay there emloyees. The car is sold in europe and in the US as well. And they have to pass the regulations to be able to sell the car e.g. here in Germany. By the way: Those regulations are the reason why you cannot get a 70 sereies from a german Toyota dealership. And funny enough, base price of a new JL Wrangler in Germany ist 80k, about the same as the Grenadier. Defender 110 is actually the cheapest of the three cars in Europe. The car is not perfect. (there is not any perfect car in the world) but it is an additional option to wranglers, 70s, or anything else. Maybe we have to ask ourselfs: Is it even possible to build a Defender replacement? And why would you want one? It will always be heavier, more complex, more electronics and more expensive than the old one.
Andrew, let's get this right..... You haven't even driven an IG yet. Correct (you sat in a prototype and where driven around). Your 'business' is based around getting others to 'build' 70 Series by correcting all the inherent flaws by spending enormous amounts of $$. Correct. Ineos build a car pretty much to the specs you have been whining about for years. Correct. You love the MB W461. Correct, even though when it was available in Oz cost well in excess of the IG (which is engineered by the same people Magna Steyr). Correct, but you don't like the IG because it is less expensive than the MB (when available), and more expensive than a 70 Series, yet infinitely better from the factory than the Toyo. Correct. You have replaced your rubbish OEM 70 Series seats with Recaros. Correct. Ineos install Recaros from factory cheaper than what anyone can buy them retail. But you try and attack the whole premise of the IG for this single point? Correct. In an earlier video (when you were trying to ingratiate yourself with Ineos Australia, you praised the IG for its roof mounted controls. Correct, but now you don't like it. Correct. Ineos refused to 'support' you or enter into a 'commercial arrangement' with you, nor invite you on a journo drive in SA (even though you are not a journalist), so you try and criticise the vehicle. Correct. Andrew, you forget that people review your earlier videos on the Grenadier (the ones you haven't pulled down - lets not go there, shall we?). You are making an embarrassment of yourself through all your contradictions. You are not coming across well though this whole 'bash' Ineos simple because they rejected your unsolicited proposals to them. C'mon, you are better than this.
I love how you go on about price and yet the 79 series is stupidly expensive and needs almost the original purchase price spent on it again to make it acceptable 🤣
Andrew has defined himself into a niche that only fits a Frankenstein troopy build. He’ll have to compromise on his “must haves” to do anything new. His Grenadier videos have been among his most viewed in the last couple of years so I can understand his frustration that it’s not a troopy.
Someone has summed it up perfectly: It’s a vehicle with an identity crisis, initially aiming to be a British built, basic, cheap, utility vehicle, but ended up being an Austrian designed, French built, complex and expensive toy for the wealthy.
Very frustrating!!! Such potential for an amazing blank canvas-and they splattered layers of paint all over it! I would rather they offer a model with canvas seats, crappy on road tires, no carpet, roll up windows, no radio… call it “The Sergeant” or “The Dragoon” or “The Snail”… whatever! Just offer a basic one as you said!!! And when you asked about what it offers over a Jeep, I opened my mouth to speak but you said it! Payload alone is a big deal, but again, too fancy. Hopefully they will listen to you and common sense. We shall see! Anyway, great review!
It’s basically a modern version of the discovery 3. That’s it’s lineage, nothing like a defender other than if you squint. And if you take a discovery 3 and squint hard you’ll find that looks like a defender too! The point is ineos fell into that same trap exactly as Andrew points out. The gap in the market for a basic, fix it yourself, affordable, utility 4wd is still left wide open and grenadier just dumped itself (by accident or design) on the same old heap as every other SUV currently available competing for the same market share. For those of you that know motorbikes, royal Enfield are doing what ineos failed to do! You can buy a brand new royal Enfield motorbike for £4K. It will be made abroad cheaply, very reliable and ultra basic, and cheap enough for everybody to afford one! They’ve cracked it! Ineos grenedier SHOULD have been the royal Enfield Himalayan of the car world but nope. They goofed it. And I’ll go and buy a hilux and let all the Chelsea mums go and buy grenadiers. That is their target audience after all.
My impression is that what Ineos was actually trying to create was a slightly more butch and slightly more “affordable” G-Wagon for urban “off-roaders”
I was so excited about the Grenadier. When I heard they were putting their USA headquarters in my city (Raleigh, NC), I was even more excited. I’ve been to all of their events within 500 miles. I’ve held a paid reservation for several years. I guessed they would be above their initial target price of $50k, but not by $40k. I can’t justify it. Two years of dreaming for naught. The value for money just isn’t there.
I knew you were going to say 'Jimny' before you said it! A solid vehicle without too much fancy stuff is the most exciting place to start. My troopy didn't even have a basic entertainment system when I bought it, just blank slots, which I love.
I'm not sure if I would disagree or agree. Both sides have valid points. Whether the Grenadier is a worthy successor to the Defender can be answered with both yes and no. I, personally, would say yes. The Grenadier is an all-terrain vehicle, through and through. In addition, the Grenadier basically has no competition in its class. What are the alternatives, at least the most obvious ones? The new Defender? Don't really have to say anything. An on-road SUV that's a tiny bit better off-road than a Range Rover or any other SUV. The G-Class? The basic price of the G-Class is significantly more expensive than the Grenadier AND is now also a road SUV. As far as I know, not even the G-Professional has a rigid front axle anymore. The Land Cruiser 300? Also more of an SUV than an off-road vehicle. The same arguments apply here as for the G-Class and the new Defender. These three vehicles are all similarly new, like the Grenadier. They therefore form a comparative class, since the state of the art in the vehicle also has to be compared. The old Defender? There is no longer. There are still used models that are in very good condition or even fully restored, but the model itself is outdated. The technology is old, as is the entire vehicle. The old Defender is actually no longer state-of-the-art. The Land Cruiser 70? Mega vehicle. Absolute top class. But old. The 70 series is great for off-road enthusiasts, but it's also a vehicle that's outdated these days. That doesn't make it bad - any more than the old Defender - but age comes with a price. The 70 series obviously has the advantage of being perfectly integrated on the market. There are parts and ideas for it without end. Nevertheless, the Grenadier can only be compared with the 70 series to a limited extent, because this is the comparison between a new vehicle model and a vehicle model that is over 40 years old. The jeep? The Jeep is the only vehicle that can be directly compared to the Grenadier. Because the Jeep is a pure off-road vehicle - like the Grenadier. This is where the differences become really clear. The jeep is there to drive as a vehicle over rough terrain. Here, the ability to overcome is in the foreground. The Grenadier is primarily a utility vehicle, with off-road capability as part of its utility. The Jimny? The Jimny is also a comparable vehicle, but on a completely different scale. In order to compare the Grenadier meaningfully, you have to compare it with comparable vehicles, i.e. with real off-road vehicles. Any soft off-roaders that are primarily intended for the road are no real competition for the Grenadier. Of course you can still compare the Grenadier with the new Defender, the G-Class and the LC300, but then you also have to include the intention behind the vehicles. The Jeep and the Jimny are both true off-road vehicles in my opinion. Both have their strengths and weaknesses. So what about the grenadier now? Is it too expensive? I can't answer this question with a yes or no either. The Grenadier is actually very expensive, but I'm not sure if it's too expensive. Even in the absolute basic version, the Grenadier here in Germany costs €81,890 for the Station Wagon, €71,140 for the two-seater Utility Wagon, €72,640 for the five-seater Utility Wagon and also €81,890 for the Quatermaster pick-up. That's a hell of a lot of money, but the equipment is absolutely first class too. I agree 100% that, at the moment, the Grenadier build is inappropriate for true off-road enthusiasts. But not all Ineos customers are like that. The Grenadier is also clearly aimed at commercial users - farmers, craftsmen, construction workers, foresters, etc. For many customers it is a very big plus that the Grenadier come with so much off-road equipment from the factory. The advantage of this is that those who don't want to put the time and money into the conversion can buy a fully equipped vehicle that comes with a manufacturer warranty - on all accessories - winch, differential locks, roof rack, bull bar, raised air intake etc. Conversely, of course, all this makes the Grenadier unattractive for real off-road enthusiasts. This is not due to the vehicle itself, but to the manufacturer's offers. That's why I'm going one step further than you with my idea: a completely stripped-down basic variant that isn't even roadworthy! No seats at all - why install seats at all when customers want to change them anyway = saves money. No batteries at all - why put a battery in at all when customers want to change them anyway = saves money. No sound and infotainment system at all, no multifunction steering wheel - why should you install technology that many customers don't even want = saves money. No interior trim at all - why should you design the interior if customers want to change it anyway. No additional electrics at all - why install something that customers want to do themselves anyway. In other words, a vehicle that basically consists exclusively of the components that are absolutely necessary for driving, which just about meets all the necessary legal safety standards, but is otherwise really just a bare body. A vehicle where EVERYTHING is optional, which is not mandatory by law. And yes, of course, a Van. I would like to have a two-door Quatermaster with a Van body instead of a bed - bigger, wider, higher - a Grenadier version just like the Troopy compared to the 76.
Really well done review and hit the mark. I live in the northwest US and was initially extremely excited about the Grenadier. I was able to see the prototype tour when it came to Seattle in Jan 2022. The group was small and we were able to have a 2-hour Q&A. No performance figures were given, but it was heavily hinted that the starting price would be around $65k US. I thought that was a little on the high side - yes, it is capable, but looking at the North American market you’re pitting it against the Jeeps and Toyota 4Runner and Tacomas. The Jeeps are similar in pricing, but the 4Runner has better performance for significantly lower pricing. We had one that was $47k new (with tax) and had very good off-road performance. And the North American market pales to what you can get globally (i.e.70-series Land Cruisers, Hilux pickups, etc.). The storage was significantly less than the 4Runner, which surprised me. I had every intention before I viewed it of putting a deposit down to get my place in line, but the facts above combined with the lack of specification information at that time led me not to. With the pricing and specs finally released starting at $71k US and a fuel economy of 15mpg US, I honestly don’t see the appeal. I was so excited to see Ineos pick up the ball where Land Rover dropped it, but comparing it to similar types of Toyota products is really no comparison.
The Ineos Grenadier is really more aimed at the Mercedes G wagon as a rival. In America, people looking at a G wagon, don’t even consider a Ford, GM or Toyota.
Well said....seems folks these days have no clue about how much things cost, or how much to start a car company from scratch. If you can't afford it, move on and buy something you can!
My view is the Grenadier pricing in Australia is quite realisitic especially vs recent and new Defenders not to mention LC 300 or Nissan YG 62 or the G wagon.
Dont know if I shouldve expected this level nitpickery or not from this channel but certainly never disagreed more with this channel than on this video. Rant of a man who likes what he likes and if you disagree you must be wrong
I got out of the offroad game last year when I sold my Discovery 1. Thought the Grenadier was going to be my reentry point until I hopped on their configurator and saw what base price was here in the US. There’s just no way I could justify spending that much. What I fear is going to happen with this vehicle, at least here where I live in Scottsdale, Arizona, is they’ll all be specced and bought by the same crowd that buys G-Wagons and those who coveted NAS Defenders into 6 figure pricing, meaning most people will only see them braving the wilds of the Scottsdale Fashion Center parking garage, and very few, if any, ever touching a tire to dirt.
I do feel like this is a bit of a hot take for lack of a better term. I agree it is a lot of money but that is the market these days. When you consider the fact that even pre-Covid a 200 Series in the US was $90k I don’t think the Grenadier is absurd starting at $72k in 2023. Additionally, as a Jeep JL owner that has driven the Grenadier, I would say the Ineos is more comparable to a GWagen than a Wrangler. Ineos buyers are buying a Grenadier for half the cost of a GWagen instead of double the cost of a BASE Wrangler… Don’t forget, we live in a time where you can option a Wrangler over $90k.
Andrew I’ve followed you for a number of years as I make decisions on how to enter the overlanding community and find your content brilliant. As we will tow an off-road van for some of our travels our vehicle choice narrowed down to a landcruiser or grenadier. The quote for a GXL with a bull bar and tow bar was $3k more expensive than a heavily optioned grenadier trialmaster. I understand the point you make however the ineos is more affordable than a basic landcruiser. Comfortable seats are an option we would have opted for in a vehicle we plan to spend a lot of time in. Time will tell if we have made the right decision with the grenadier. There is also a big advantage for those of us not as mechanically capable as you in having warranties from the factory for accessories. I am interested in your commentary after driving a production vehicle. I don’t care so much about ineos replacing the old Land Rover, I’m more interested in whether the grenadier is a good vehicle and whether it represents value for money.
Andrew is NOT mechanically capable, his videos prove that. His more of a driver come film maker. Making the comments he does on the engineering of other cars is usually subjective and not based on anything other than personal preference.
Defenders were not " cheap" as you claim. They started at $78,000 back in 2016 and you can easily pay $130k + even for a 3 year old one still. Although it obviously resembles the Defender, I've never heard anyone involved claim they were replacing the Defender directly. It seems you are criticising them based more on what you wanted, or wished they would have done. They did exactly what they intended.
Each eeeeeccchhhh! You're right, On INEOS journey they have missed all the road signs telling them to make it basic. Also, I agree with your take on Jimny. You need to mention that Suzuki needs to make the Jimny XL, the one we would love to have in the States! Great video Andrew! I also enjoyed seeing you driving at high speeds.
Although, Andrew, the Wg/WJ Grand Cherokee was a monocoque, but Porsche got involved, and, yep, it was still a monocoque. However, it was terrifically strong, with live axles, and they could, and still, be modified like crazy. I'm not a particular Jeep fan, having owned a ZG/ZJ Grand Cherokee ORVIS Editions, and 2 WG/WJ Grand Cherokee Overlands. 4.7 High Output OHC V8s on the last 2, and the blue one was taken off the road at 413,000km. That was a bloody stupid move on my part, as it was still stock, and road-legal - I became paranoid about valve seats dropping, as that is fatal to the HO engines, as you cannot repair the heads, (alone), for less than NZ $4K each. The silver one got sold, as I sold it at half the mileage, but Covid destroyed my business. I had to pay the bills, so off it went. I regret parting with the later2 - wasn't too fuss about the Orvis, even though is was the only one in the Southern Hemisphere. I sincerely don't believe that I'd buy another Jeep. Too, too many issues Your suggested version of the Ineos sounds attractive, but their being BMW-powered puts me off a hell of a lot, as I've had 2 consecutive awful BMW experiences. I agree about the Jimny, and I'm seeing more and more of them on the road here in NZ. They're a serious option.
You are both right & wrong about this, in my opinion. Yes you are correct that the Grenadier is too expensive and comes with too many things a real enthusiast might wish to have added themselves and made it personal/ unique. I think you are wrong about Ineos aiming to capture & win over nostalgic Defender owners - these folks will stick with Land Rover no matter what. Real enthusiasts will have invested time & money in their older Defenders or Land Cruisers and are not looking to buy off the shelf ready to go adventure vehicles. The new Grenadier is looking at the would be adventurer, the types that live in fancy apartments in central London, that don’t carry out work on their own cars. They love the idea of going off road or having weekend adventures but have no clue about how to make a trail repair. These cars are destined to sit in underground car parks and make the occasional trip out to the Cotswolds. This is where Ineos has identified their customer base. The pub going beard-strokers that enjoy stripping down their suspension at the weekends just for fun won’t be buying the Grenadier. Ineos know this. Same way that Land Rover know that those buying the NEW defender are not folks that owned the OLD defender. Let’s face it, if Ineos only sold vehicles to enthusiasts that loved to modify their own cars, then this whole project would never have got off the ground. Their business model relies on selling an off-the-shelf dream to those would-be weekend adventurers. In that respect, yes, you are correct, this car is compromised in so many ways.
Expensive? Yes. Too many standard options, perhaps. Let's be honest. In, now, 2023, even most enthusiasts don't want to drive an ox cart. The Defender goes too far in the plush direction, while the Ineos is probably a bit more balanced, without sacrificing some much needed improvements to bring it more current. Only manual, limited engines... the old Defender. That aged it prematurely imo.
Wow, i think this is the first video of yours where i disagree almost entirely. -The roof switches: You as well as we all know, that it's the develloping costs of the rof switches that are what makes the price, and not if they are in every car or not. So either everyone has them and the devlloping costs for it to work under all ciscurmstances, not rattle, make sense in the way to use them ect. are spread over every owner, making them actually way cheaper than any after market solution, or you would create a really expensive extra, and you would argue that it would be a too expensive extra. -The Recaro seats: As you pointed out, their deal is going to be way cheaper than what you can get on the after market. It's obvious that a huge number of seats ordered in almost stable numbers for a certain time is going to cost way way less than on demand production for individual seats. And what you seem to ignore (which to me is unlike your normal self) is again develloping costs: with the recaro seats they only had ot put them into the car and check that they won't rattle. With any "cheap" unfancy seat they would have designed themselves they would have had to spend more money and time on. And "just take the seats of a Dacia Duster" doesn't work either, cause Renault in this case would most likely also want soem money for Ineos to use them, and in the end that costs the same as getting good seats by REcaro in the first place. - In general i am astonished at you are seemingly ignoring where the actual price of the Grenadier comes from. (I mean you are well read and experienced and it is the fist time i see a video where you don't see the tree because of all the forest.) Vehicle devellopment. They wanted to achieve a reliable , rugged and safe car in the first go. Which is an immense difficult undertaking. how many car manufacturer in the last few years can you name that have succeded in such an endeaver? I know none. Even well established manufacturers when bringing a new car to the market often have lot's of issues for the first few years. (Some throughout the lifetime of the model) And when you take Ineos, their Grenadier wasn'T devlloped by Chuck down at the corner for 2 Beers and a Steak. The Grenadier was develloped by specialists in that field. The devellopment was done by Magna in Graz. That's the guy who (under previous name Steyr Daimler Puch) develloped the G class for Mercedes and 90% of all 4wd and awd systems on the roads of this planet at the moment. And thorough devellopment costs a lot of money. -The Jimney: Again, why is the Jimney so cheap? Because it is an evolution of a previous model and the numbers and other Suzukis made it cheaper: A big company like Suzuki doesn't have to earn back all the devellopment costs for the Jimney by selling Jimneys, they can spread all their car devellopment costs across all of their product line, and share already develloped things across models which also reduces the price hugely. If they had made the Jimney from scratch like the Grendier, and only made the Jimney, it would still be a little cheaper than the Grendier, but you would critizise them for the price they would have to ask for the Jimney then. It would be a really very expensive little car. For your 79 series land cruiser Toyota has long come even with the develloping costs, and if you take that into accout, the earning margin of Toyota from the 79 series ones is huge. (They didn't go down in price much did they? And yet the big costs are long earned back by Toyota)
You are not a business man. Sorry. And you are using harsh words for the Grenadier. When you build a company from scratch (like Elon Musk did), you spend your capital and you need to get a return on it. So you build a product market segment by market segment. Did Elon start with the cheap Tesla 3? No he didn’t. He started with an expensive roadster for $250k. Afterwords a Tesla S for $120k… until much later during his upscaling where he launched a Tesla 3 for a third of that price. Why should it be any different for Ineos? We should actually be very fortunate that we get an excellent vehicle for €70k to €80k VAT included right from the start. I am sure other vehicles in other segments will follow in 5 to 10 years that will be marketed in other price segments. 2023 is the start of the sales process. Cheers P.S: love my Recaro seats
Cool, so you saw the official EPA rating on the MPG. Cause the brochure is not the official number since they are still working on it. BTW, the EU guys using US standards are getting closer to combined 18 on their petrol which puts you right with you Jeep JL.
@JoeTimmons79 Joey, Joey baby, you might want to get your eyes checked. I thought maybe Joey kid is right and I was wrong. It happens. I went on Jeep's site and everyone I looked at had 17 city and 22 highway with combined of 20. The 392 was 13 city and 17 highway with 15 combined. I also noticed that jeep can only tow 2k pounds.
@@peopleschamp7258 I am getting 24 mpg combined on road with my Jeep JLU 3.6 auto. I am easy on the gas, but that 8 Speed transmission really helps improve the fuel economy.
You talk a LOT and surely know more about the 4x4 topic than most. My question is however, how many thousand kilometres have you actually driven in a Grenadier, which would actually qualify you to judge it more objectively?
Andrew, you are correct in your conclusion. And while I could argue that the Recarro seats from the factory probably don't cost that much more than a uncomfortable seat that has been designed from scratch. And I could argue that having the wiring and switches in place make adding things later much easier. Neither of those change the fact that I can't justify spending the money (US) for base Grenadier. And if I configure it the way I want (about $8k more than base) from Ineos I still struggle to justify the price because the price is still too high because of the starting point is too high. But then a Billionaire is going to struggle to understand the finances of the working person, and so design choices were made. The Grenadier wasn't designed for the working class man or woman. It was designed for the "well off" and higher person because the people that made the design decisions are incapable of understanding the finances of the masses.
No he's not right in his conclusion, I suspect that if he was to divulge the labour costs of his last troop carrier build , you'd be more than shocked, possibly double the cost of the Grenadier, ask the question,?see how the finances compare. 👍
@@stephenhankey688 You seem triggered. May just be coming across the wrong way in written words though. What is it that you think is Andrew's conclusion? I kind of doubt you remember what the question was. I'll remind you. The question was, "Is the Grenadier a replacement for the original LR Defender?". The conclusion was, "No, it isn't." The original Defender was a affordable, decent off roader, that was uncomfortable, unreliable and required constant maintenance and had the driving characteristics that were just this side of the tractor that is the Uni-mog. I'm not even saying it is a bad thing that the Grenadier isn't a replacement for the Defender. The Grenadier is indeed a lot better than the Defender in many, many ways. The base cost for just the vehicle is the problem. If it was US$60K then it would be a lot more justifiable. But at US$71K not enough people will buy the basic version to provide the incentive for the aftermarket to make parts for the Grenadier. Less aftermarket support for the Grenadier means people will buy a Jeep or a Toyota because they have the aftermarket support. Maybe the price of the Grenadier will come down in a few years. Or the rest of the market will raise their prices and the Grenadier will become more attractive to buyers. And yes, I'm aware the Andrew's 70-series builds likely exceed a $100k price tag. The price difference between the base Grenadier and the base 70-series is the difference in what one can afford to purchase aftermarket parts and have them installed.
7:45 I said this, I believe, in the comments of your first video a couple years back when you covered the Ineos. I said this was just another lifestyle vehicle for rich guys and not a utility vehicle for all of the back roads of the world. Are there no companies that care about giving quality to people who aren't rich? I'm going into my second year, waiting for my ordered Ford Maverick. Ford was just paying lip service to the media when it was talking about releasing a budget pick up. VERY FEW inexpensive Mavericks are on the road. They always make the expensive orders first. Ineos: another plaything for rich guys. Love Andrew. Thanks for the honest videos.
A simple “Thankyou Ineos, good luck and can I become a Patreon of yours” would’ve sufficed. To expect the FIRST model launched of ANY car to nail absolutely everything is naive to say the least. As with Tesla…the first models usually prove concept and market, selling to early adopters who have a sense of adventure, want and will pay for something unique. The cheaper models usually follow….BUT need the first ones to sell.
Much appreciated this episode, when this dream started a number of years ago I wished for an updated Defender, but as the months rolled by and the coordinated news releases happened, my secret dream of Defender legacy been extended were slowly crushed. As you rightly state it is just another high status high price 4x4 which the original never was. I'll stick with my 105 and pay for my own upgrades and use my own hands to create my dream. ps. they could have charged more for a bog standard base model and made more money, doesnt make sense.
Agree, I bought well looked after stock 105 GXL, 340 km,19k, spent 25+, only requires now diff locker and maybe auto upgrade, GVM and turbo engineered as well within 25k!
i am also a owner of a greadier. for me is it a masterpiece. also the parts what i can buy form the factory is amazing. why i should spend more money for a winch if i can buy it from the factory? i think its a perfect way to buy it out of the factory with stuff i normally would by in the aftermarket. only the tuning circle is very bad. the suspension is great. also fully loaded. also verny good with 100kg on the roof. the car drives much much better that i expected on the road and offroad. the price yeah its too high. it is
I clicked thumbs up and seen i'm not subscribed for some reason. I have been subbed forever! Great job UA-cam... Thanks for this wonderful video! I always appreciate the wisdom you share!
@@2157AFAye, true enough, but some might have buyers regret when negotiating a mini roundabout in the suburbs with the woeful 14m turning circle of the Grenadier!
I've always liked your channel Andrew, except where it comes to Ineos... You went at them a few times expecting a colaberation, you didn't get it, and felt slighted. You made that very clear a while back, and you were rightly called out about it... It would have been great for your channel had they given you a long term press car to use and abuse as you saw fit, I would have watched that... But when they declined your offer, you got pretty catty... I reckon you have carried that grudge with you ever since... You criticised the fancy model for having leather, you criticise the roof mounted switch gear, we both know, that putting that in at the factory would not cost that much, especially compared to a one off (or small production run( in the aftermarket... You criticise the Recaro seat... What seats are in your past few 70 series? Recaro, like any other manufacturer can make products that stretch from basic, to brilliant, I doubt the Ineos is going to have top line seats in the base model... Just because it says "Recaro", it does not mean that they came from a 911 Turbo... Recaro also make aircraft seat... not the same ones go into cattle class as go into first class... You criticise a plastic tray liner... 95 percent of new utes in Australia would be so equipped... The canvas canopy... over security issues.. Tonrneau covers have those same issues, How about going after every other ute builder? I feel sure that will not be the only option... Mate, if you can't report on the car without exposing your massive bias, don't bother reporting on it at all..
A base model Troopy is $75k The base model Grenadier is listed on Redbook as being $97,000. But it seems that you could not buy a brand new troop carrier for $75,000 for love nor money. Dealers have them listed for $100,000 or more with 50 or 60 km on the clock
Nothing will be right for Andy White - he makes his living critisises everything that he has not designed or promoted or is not sponsored to use - an annoying bumptious individual. No wonder Ineos chose not to use him.
I dont quite get the point of the video because this topic always works the same and has no new input ever. Hardcore overlanders would love an empty bucket without anything whatsoever ..... Honestly i dont think most people build a designated overlander. In my experience people buy a car to slightly modify (tires, snorkel, roof racks...) but it stays a car to drive for more than overlanding only. I like a well put together interior because im gonna drive it to get groceries once in a while. The grenadier qualifies in a way the old defender couldnt
I agree. I was going to consider buying one, but NOT AT THAT PRICE! My guess is they had to release them at the price they did in order to try and recover early production costs and some initial R&D. I'm sure once production ramps up and time draws on, they'll be able to sell them a little less expensively and expand on the range.
A few 4x4 reviews coming in from trusted sources now. It seems you are forming an opinion without a lot of real world experience. Best to wait till you actually drive it. It seems to be getting very favourable reviews.
I get ASPW's points but it fails to take into account that this is a first "consumer" release, for fans. In that point it delivers 100%. Easy for Eneos to adjust production to a "commercial" version once it's built buzz. I'm sorry but, it's a bit OTT and arrogant to say that they don't know what they're doing. They just have a business plan.
Wow Andrew, this is definitely one of the best and most honest and accurate reviews I have ever seen. You are spot on with this.
This man is not who he says.. He is david attenborough on.. Carbon
A fake, yes, not a brand loyalist , David Technicolour Dreamcoat style, like a cameleon 😂😂😂😂
I’ve got a lot of respect for Andrew. I like him a lot but a lot of these points sadly are just for Clickbait and most are moot points. Anyone who talks about payload (check the comments below) there is no stock vehicle that is superior in payload or towing then the Grenadier. To Andrews point about having a fully laden vehicle, does he really think this vehicle cannot travel fully laden? I challenge anyone to find and share a video on UA-cam where any other manufacture has fully laden their 4x4 vehicle and provided a challenging off-road/4x4 course for journalist to test drive their vehicle. Quite simply the Grenadier is the best stock 4 x 4 vehicle ever made. I challenge anyone to fully laden any vehicle and put it side-by-side with Ineos Grenadier and show me superior performance. Bear in mind, the Toyotas and Nissan have much less brake horsepower and torque in their stock vehicles. Regarding seats, Andrew you can always take the seats out and put other less comfortable seats if you don’t want them. However this car has designed for the majority of buyers not for 0.001% of fussy buyers like Andrew, which would be a recipe for financial ruin. Andrew has a very extreme specific requirement and no one is going to make a bespoke vehicle just for him only. Andrew also spends between 20 - $30,000 to get his vehicle modified after purchase The people that buy a Grenadier are high-end buyers and the only other high-end rival is a Mercedes G wagon. They are the genuine tier one 4x4/Overlanding vehicles that you can drive straight out of the showroom and do an expedition with no modification, other than lithium batteries and a rooftop tent and jerrycan holders. With Toyota Land cruiser and Nissan patrol you still need to spend quite a bit of time and money to modify these to get them ready for an overland expedition. Andrew puts his vehicle into a specialist where it takes 4 to 6 weeks for modification before he takes it on an overland adventure. watch his modification videos. Don’t listen to anyone who says you can drive a Land Cruiser straight out of the showroom and drive it through Sahara desert, Atlas Mountains and the west coast of Africa with no further modifications. The final point on 90 L fuel capacity is not far off the Nissan Armada at 106L which gets 462 miles on a Full tank Vs the Grenadier diesel, which gives you 461 miles. Nissan and land cruiser is usually have five or six speed transmission which are significantly more fuel thirsty than the Grenadier. With the optional extra fuel tank, These are carried in a precarious position under the chassis where if you are rock crawling you can rip the fuel tank open. Personally I prefer to carry 2x 20 L jerrycans either side, externally in a secure lockable cage on the rear panniers. Get what you want your choice, but is there a chance mate no mistake. The Grenadier is the most capable all-round over landing, 4x4 stock vehicle.
Like Andrew said, “you’re missing the point”. A new grenadier is $70,000+, and a new wrangler is $33k. Jeep have got it right
A a new defender is 56,000 and a ‘97 defender in good condition is about the same. My wrangler has similarly held its value…could sell it now for what it cost new in ‘99
The key is the access to the base vehicle and the accessories market. Otherwise what’s the point of replacing the old defender…they’re competing with a G wagon instead
@@Andrew-dg7qm But travel to any country outside the USA and see how few Jeep products are used for serious overland journeys.
I'm an Ex- Land Rover Dealer Principal with 38 years Defender 110 experience - hundreds of thousands of miles towing with 110s. 2000 miles now on my new Grenadier Fieldmaster and just returned from a 400 mile trip towing a huge enclosed 7 metre trailer with an E'type Jag in the back. Gross train weight about 6 tons. 19.1 MPG. Hugely impressed. Its a tank! I've never towed with anything so stable. Its track, weight and tyre size make it feel like my 2016 Defender's big brother. All that said Andrew, I agree about the need for a stripped down Grenadier 'Utility' . There is a market for that.
Well said, me the same in my line of work towing plant machinery around, the Grenadier in my opinion knocks, the older defenders into a cocked hat, with out doubt. Safely..
@@stephenhankey688
Thanks Stephen!
All good and well but the pick up only has 760kgs of payload. Will proberbly tow even beter than the van as is 12 inch longer but payload stops it being vat reclameable (accountant still looking at that)
My 130 defender with dropside bed had 1300kgs payload and tows twice as good as a 110 of whitch ive had a good few of also have a v6 amarok which tows very good as well well over 1 tonne payload with a gmv upgrade think grenadier neede to think about buisness users a bit more and shaved 240 kgs off the quartermaster
No leg room in them your left foot is sitting on the rise where exhaust goes what we’re they thinking sorry they weren’t thinking
@@johncolley3317sub 30k is impossible for them. It'll be 45k even at the most basic
A basic troopy costs 105k at a dealer now, l paid 103k on road for a Trialmaster with all the trimmings. I don't understand you saying it costs so much. On a troopy you still have to spend for a electrician $110 a hour to instal a second battery, DC converter, spotlight wiring, ladder, Recaro seats, etc etc etc and end up spending 150k plus
While I agree with everything you're saying, I think we both "know" that all of this is very intentional from Ineos. They aren't ACTUALLY trying to replace the Defender in that sense, it's just their clever way of marketing this product that's close enough to the Defender to take advantage of that portion of the Defender's fan base which is now aging and has money to burn on a more upscale version.
Agreed that it is not a Defender replacement but the Defender you are talking about ceased production in 2016 or whenever it was and there was undoubtedly a business/financial reason for that. Any "replacement" is going to have to be different. The basic premise of the video I support, however.
Spot on.
Given the stories about how Jim Ratcliffe originally attempted to restart production of the Defender, I'm willing to accept that he originally intended to built a true "utility vehicle" but that intention has clearly changed as Ineos embarked on designing and building a vehicle of their own.
@@SiCrewe That's fair. And perhaps from a more optimistic angle, if the current Grenadier brings the company success and starts to build a good reputation for the vehicle, then that could give Ineos management more comfort in pursuing a stripped-down version for the broader market. Let's hope that turns out to be the case.
@@camro210 Thing is, it's possible (despite Defender prices getting silly recently) for almost anybody to buy into a Defender of some sort.
That can only happen because farmers, utility companies, the military and NGOs bought them for decades and maintained them to varying standards (or not) so they ARE there to be had.
Sooner or later, owners will spend money on OEM stuff and JLR will continue to get revenue from that vast pool of used vehicles.
With the Grenadier, Ineos has been forced to start from scratch, with (almost) their only source of revenue being new car sales.
Maybe they ARE playing the "long game" and hoping the Grenadier will become as ubiquitous as the Defender was but I'd be very surprised if a company's management/shareholders would be willing to take that risk, or wait that long for a return on their investment.
Honestly, I'm surprised Ineos didn't just scrap the whole project when they found they couldn't continue production of the Defender so I guess you've got to give them credit for seeing it through.
@@johncolley3317 Sure, I have no argument with that. But that young demographic is very unlikely to care how suitable the Grenadier is as a replacement for the Defender. They'll want one regardless.
Purchase a Toyota, change the seats for Recaro's and thats ok. A manufacturer puts in decent seats from factory and thats not ok? Seriously. Personally I've spent a reasonable amount of time crawling over the Ineos and agree, it's no Landrover. After owning an older 110 and really wanting to buy the last of the Defenders it took a test drive to tell me the romantic notion didn't align with reality. Ineos is a modern vehicle and frankly for those that want a modern vehicle of that type, it's perfect and those with them seem to like them. Not for me, but thats ok. The fact that we now have another player in the live axle market is a good thing, not bad.
Andrew, my wife and I drove our grenadier from the UK to albania, taking in many offroad routes on the way. We were fully loaded with a roof tent and cargo, fridge etc. There's no problem with suspension height.
As for price, I paid less for mine than an well specced prado here in the UK.. go figure.
You really have a bee in your bonnet about the Grenadier 😅.
UK prices seem to be different than most of the world. A 'Prado' in the US (GX 460) can be had for ~60k. A Grenadier starts at $73k and a Trialmaster easily gets to $87k. To compare, a fully equipped Jeep Rubicon with 35" tires is around $72k.
Hi Steve ! UK to Albania, ok thats a distance !!!
May I ask ... did you had any issues with dirty sensors in offroad conditions, or "car-start-problems" caused by the doors ?
How much fuel, food, water, tools and recovery equipment were you carrying, did you take an additional spare tyre?
''You really have a bee in your bonnet about the Grenadier.....'' How many of Andrew's previous videos have you watched...?!? He's got more bees in his bonnet than a Capilano honey beehive...& that's precisely why we love & respect him so much...! 🐝🍯🚙❤
just wasted 20 minutes won't get back. Am I hearing this right.. the seats are too comfortable so Ineos should make them uncomfortable enough so they need to be replaced, it's not as cheap as a Jimny..... the overhead console is a waste of money ...for some. Click Bait, where's the video gone with the rant about Ineos not giving you a free Grenadier..😶
We get your point Andrew, but if you think about it. How much money do you need to spend on a 70 series to make it right. It’s around 100k aud for the vehicle and modifications, what if you can have a car that’s already built right for the same amount. How much do you need to spend on a defender? It’s all around a 100k. The important thing you’re not talking about is buying a used car vs a new one. Sure you can buy a defender now to 50k but to make it reliable and trusty you’ll spend another 50.
Before you even said it, I was thinking of the Jimny. In spite of market trends and conventional wisdom, Suzuki went all out with an honest throwback with some tongue-in-cheek humour and proven authenticity, with just enough modern amentity to surprise you. Whoever designed the Jimny should be handed the patent for the Defender.
Yes. And, also look at the price. In my country, a Jimny costs only 1/3 of the price of most modern 4 by 4´s...
@mindtraveller100 yes, and the Jimny has a 1.5 liter petrol engine, weighs sweet F all, and carries 2 people and their luggage. Hardly and apples to apples comparison. Everyone loves bringing up the jimny, but everyone I know who's driven one or bought one, soon moves on.
@@steveofengland Of course it´s not an apples to apples comparison. Jimny is better than some of them...
@@steveofengland same here. Pretty much everyone I know of owning the Jimmy moved on to the LC.
@@yuglesstube maybe I'm biased as a owner, but I've swapped from a commodore ute to a jimny. I frequently make 900kms trips from syd to mel, and its fine on the freeway. A little buzzy but I was expecting much worse. It would definitely appreciate a 6th gear, and a heavy load would slow it down, but as long as you're aware you're not driving a huge diesel it's more than adequate on the highway.
Well after 3/4 of a million miles in Defenders all I can say the last 2K in a Trialmaster petrol have been a pleasure . Yes. it's expensive but you have to pay for quality weather it's the drivetrain engine, gearbox, axles or the chassis( 3mm thick gestamp same as G wagen) The seats are comfortable its quiet and after a day at the wheel your not knackered. The engine is powerful enough with out being over stressed gearbox. a dream.And yes I have driven it off road in ice snow and mud didn't put a foot wrong. The HDC is very good no groaning as in other vehicles I have driven . Good on the road as any live axle vehicle . As a Pom I can detect whinging a mile off, the boats sailed . Why don't you just go and drive one(not on a journey day get one for a week or so) and then you can make your mind up if it's not for you all well and good .The seats are very comfortable adjustable fantastic heaters too. If you keep the price low all components suffer.
Where did you find ice and snow in the UK at this time of year?
@@rawnature8148 Last December 22
I agree whole heartedly with you comments, I think APW is wrong, and is after hits,Grenadier has just completed a top offroad rally in Poland, never missed a beat.
@@stephenhankey688 let's see when they start getting 200k kms +.
@@Pandora882 so in 7 months you have done 2000kms? That's not even two days worth of driving.
I hope Ineos listens and releases an Ineos Spartan.
That would be the right name for it!
Perfect name for it!
Love your content but this seems particularly petty and cynical. The expedition overland journalist taking on the grenadier SA trip is extremely well regarded and I have the utmost confidence in his honesty in portraying the vehicle and ability to factor in any engineering around the route. That seemed a bit of a cheap dig.
I’d argue for a market like aus ineos wouldn’t want a basic model as who would buy it when the 76 is available. It’s a new brand in Toyota country. By your logic anyone can go buy a 76 and then spend $20-30k + to make the thing half bearable by modern standards (seats, track correction, sound system etc). Or you can buy the ineos which has the bells and whistles and you’re on your way. I don’t think a basic version would bring in enough return for ineos to justify or would be financially feasible for shipping. Im referencing brands like jeep only sell certain models in aus vs North America.
You have to tip your hat to the fact the brand is trying.
I took my Grenadier out to Ilkurlka roadhouse and back along the Anne Beadell hwy from Laverton. Fully loaded 2 people ... survived to tell the story... some valid comments re pricing and accessories - i have used overhead panel switches etc, love the seats...
As Jeremy Clarkson said on this vehicle: Ït's sad. I really wanted it to be brilliant. I even sort of wanted one."
Someone sounds hurt they weren’t asked by grenadier. Starting price of 98 doesn’t seem bad considering you get a good 4x4 out the box especially compared to 70 series. You sound bitter, like you’re looking for issues because they didn’t ask for your feedback.
I think you nailed it in one…
Biggest problem with the Grenadier is the weight. Harry’s Garage weighed his at 2,950kg with just the driver on board. Doesn’t leave much capacity for passengers and luggage. It’s some 400kg more than the new Defender. That much extra weight is going to have a negative impact off-road. I don’t think your complaints about the Recaro seats are justified. People nowadays want a minimum standard of seat, and that Recaro in cloth trim is just that. Comparing it to the Jimny is also fruitless; that is no longer on sale in Europe due to emissions. Until you have actually driven one extensively, then this rant style monologue isn’t justified. It also comes across in a bad light given that you asked to work with Ineos in development, and they said no to you.
oh wow I did not know that, I really wanted to know what waa the reason for his shift of opinion, first it was that it's built in France but this video was still a surprise to me how negative it is
his rant makes no sense, no company today can start making something extremely basic, you could start an agricultural machine manufacturing company 100 years ago but not today
it's also very funny how in the video on the updated 70 series he praises it to the high heavens that it has an automatic and is sad because the seats are the same old shit😂 and he said Toyota looks out for the enthusiasts because they added the narrow body indicators, even on the Toyota Gibraltar Stockholdings website they talk about how legendary the Land Cruiser is, and just copying an old design of yours is neither bold nor brilliant
also as if every 70 Series doesn't look the same with ARB bullbar, ARB winch and all the same other stuff
I just really really wished Mercedes still sold the solid front axle G-Class to civilians, that would wipe the floor with the 70 Series exceeding it in everything
Haven't seen Harry's garage, but I do know a lot of the weight of the Ineos over other comparable vehicles' is down to the standard options that don't get counted on other vehicle weights. There's a whole bunch of standard stuff on the Ineos that is add-on for most other vehicles, especially something like the 70 series, that is standard on the Ineos. Stuff like full underbody protection, front and rear bars, tow bar, sound deadening, roof racks, pre-installed wiring looms, air bags...
Weigh a fully loaded 70 series and it will be touching 3T as well - my brother's 78, that wasn't fully loaded, came in at ~2700kg.
@@Alaster- I’m comparing like for like on the road weight out of the dealership, and in that scenario even with a tow bar, the Grenadier still weighs some 400kg more than a new Defender, 2,850kg vs 2,400kg. Don’t forget the live axles on the 70 and Grenadier weigh a lot more than independent suspension.
@@andrewhurstcars yeah that's kinda my point, like for like doesn't exist between the Ineos and most others as standard off-road kit on the Ineos is not counted. Along with the drive train components you mentioned, there's also a bunch of aluminium and plastic on the Defender where there would be steel on the Ineos, not to mention a whole ladder frame. You're better off comparing the 200 series LC for weight (2665kg, before adding off-road kit).
Realistically, the Ineos and Defender are not really the same class of vehicle, and shouldn't be cross-shopped. The Defender is a tarted up shopping trolley, for people who wish they could take it off road (even if it might be better off-road than many), and the Ineos has been made as a work horse that can handle offroad. I got told by Ineos Australia, on their proto tour, that hard-core 4x4 use wasn't as high a priority to them as mines, agriculture, NGOs and commercial. It kind of shows too, as it's proving to have some design features that don't lend well to modifying.
@@Alaster- having been under a Grenadier, all that 'underbody protection is tin. I'll get smashed up quick-smart and not protect it, particularly not the low hanging wheel speed sensors.
There seem to be enough people taking new Defenders on expeditions successfully, so maybe it is a well-engineered vehicle and your opinion is poorly informed....
Salty because Ineos didn't want anything to do with you? I don't understand why you complain about the price, its a turn key package. All you need to do is a drawer system, electrics and maybe a lift is that's your thing.... coming from someone who owned a troopy with over 100k in mods, the Inos is an amazing car and very well priced for what you get.
Andrew, a couple things.
1) there are already aftermarket solutions for roof racks, bullbars, rock, sliders, step rails, etc.
2) the original price for the Grenadier at least in North America was going to be at least $10,000 less but due to the outrageous inflation in the world ineos had to change the price of the vehicle to make it more profitable for them. It’s a real bummer but when you price a fully loaded jeep wrangler Rubicon X, it’s about 7 to 8 grand more but provides a full structural hardtop, more storage space heavier duty undercarriage, far greater payload and yes more unique feel so I think ultimately it is worth it.
3) the jeep JK has not been around since 2016. It is now called a JL since that debuted in 2018. If you don’t get your terminologies right nobody’s going to take you seriously.
4) lastly, let’s face it for all your talk about wanting them to put some stupid little seat in the car and have some burlap dashboard and make it ultimately super cheap and plasticky and crappy just to get the price down means that you’re literally an old ass dinosaur in today’s world.
Anybody like you who wants to have a vehicle basically be exactly like an original defender that started in 1984 is seriously diluting them selves in today’s world. I guarantee you the changes that ineos made are going to make the vehicle a better seller overall, if you don’t like the fact that it cost too much, then it’s time to start making more money. Period.
or just keep buying old ass cars and being your typical old man jealous self yelling at the clouds.
Way over priced no foot room for driver shit seats horrible driving position who wants switched up above your head need them wher you can see them they missed the boat I’m afraid KISS
How do you cut off the roof of a Grenadier and add a pop top with all that electronic junk up there? There's a reason my vehicles are 23, 25 and 42 years old.
@@mark2073 supposedly alucab is working on this as we speak, and if you don’t like it, keep your 42 year old truck forever and die alone sad and scared at change in the world.
@@mark2073 - rewiring, or deleting that electrical junk is all in a days work for any AE tech. Chopping off the roof still just takes a sawzall.
Yeah strange i thought, he kept harping about "price for the enthusiast" yet most "enthusiasts" in Aus will buy a land cruiser for 120k and then spend another 80-100
Enthusiasts won’t make the vehicle viable so you have to appeal to a wider customer base, look 3 to 5 years down the road at the second hand market and that’s where you will find the enthusiasts just like the 79 series
Second-hand values for 3 year old hardcore off-roaders in the UK are absolutely bonkers, not far off the original purchase prices. I think there’s a deliberate policy to restrict these vehicles only to the wealthy, as another example of the ongoing war on motor enthusiasts.
@@stonemarten1400 interesting statement.
I kinda disagree, look at the jimmy and why it's such a hit. Loads of people loved the original and the new one is basically a comfortable modern version that is perfect for the enthusiast to customise and play around with. I see more customised ones than stock ones.
@@aquilaphotofilm You can only by a commercial variant of the Suzuki Jimny in the UK now, due to emissions standards. It has a bulkhead and cage behind the front seat. Someone above average height will find it very uncomfortable if not undriveable. The new price is also high and second hand prices often above the original value.
@@stonemarten1400 you must be fun at parties, Mr tin foil hat. No wonder your wife cheats on you!
Andrew, I think you should sit down and interview a business manager/accountant from LR or Ineos and see why a stripped-out low cost version is just not viable. If they can’t make money, they can’t make the cars!
Like Andrew couldn't make films you mean !!🤣 yes to me it's very Hypocritical
to keep from having to meet safety and emissions ratings they can only make a small amount per year, and they are already selling them
there won't be a cheap car, prices for materials have gone up loads since 2020. Maybe the plan for the grenadier was to be 40k but steel went up 400%!! yet alone everything else and lots of wiring etc comes from Ukraine and Russia.
Land Rover was cheap and very successful!
@@ranjithpowell6791 Indeed: Was...
It seems to me that nothing is ever good enough for this guy.
He loved the defender……but !
It’s gone !!!
Hats off to you Grenadier
Other than you, there isn't an auto journalist out there that would give a positive review to a stripped out Grenadier. The market demands a certain level of fit, finish and features. If the seats are crap, there goes any good reviews from journalists and the car wont sell. Just about every review I've seen, from a journalist, they simply LOVE the seats. Who wants to buy a cheap vehicle with school bus seats, then go find replacement seats just to make the driving experience somewhat decent? Not many people want that type of experience. In your scenario, you buy a new Ineos, then spend months customizing it to how you want it as the seats are terrible from day one. Just about everyone wants a vehicle that is good in every aspect from the start. Sure they will modify things over time, but most people want a vehicle ready to go right out of the showroom. What you are suggesting is basically like buying a brand new project car. I think your approach is better suited to the used car market. Go find a vehicle you like that is used and needs lots of things replaced. Then you can custom tailor the vehicle to how you want it. Ineos is off to a good start and many of their accessories are made by other manufactures who know the accessory market. Take the roof rack and winch as examples.
The Grenadier seats are really good - supportive & comfy. And the overhead switches mean I can just bolt on the roof lights and elec accessories I chose - the wiring’s already ‘plumbed in’. And the build quality is better than the old Defender - it’s more like the old G-Wagon - really, really ‘tough’ - but safe as well. I think you should take one for a test drive, and then you’ll see that the Grenadier really is a no-frills, highly capable and customisable 4x4 (in base form), but built for the modern age, to modern safety standards, highly customisable, doesn’t leak or make you feel uncomfortable when driving. I think Ineos got the build and spec about right. And on the price, well, one has to pay for quality… It’s a ‘pass’ from me…
You don't get the point either. He isn't saying it's a bad car. Just a bad car for enthusiasts who want to customize their Ineos to their liking, who don't have a huge load of cash sitting in the back. Yes, they are customizable, but the absolute base for the start of said customization already sets the bar high for anyone to enter. People have to pay a lot for features they might not even really need, which completely misses the mark for a cheap buildable machine you can modify exactly to the specification you want/need. Yes, less than the new Defender, but it still isn't the same as the old Defender, which this video is all about. It's about their claim to have completely replaced the "old" Defender, which they haven't.
@@Dragontasticvideos Have you called them and asked if you can buy a bare chassis? Another thing, if you want to customize your 4x4 you need to have a shitload of cash. You think those leather chairs and interior came with a box of cheerios?
@@martinuso7446 so buy one for 50 grand pre pimped . or buy a bare shell for 30 grand spend 15 grand on it to pimp it thats 45 grand total and i have a vehicle thats totally built MY WAY and cant be had from the factory like that and still have 5 grand to spend on fuel 🤔
@@cordellej So you called them and a bare grenadier costs 30.000? Or are you just fantasizing? The last one is ok but you wont get a good new 4x4 for 30.000,-Look at the Toyota 70 series. What does a trooper costs? 70-80.000? And that's a car with nothing on it. So I think your cunning plan won't fly.
@@martinuso7446 when someone dont comprehend what was said but replies to it , the idiocracity of the comment shows alot
Having had mine for 6 weeks and doing just over 1K Miles I am finding it brilliant. Yes , it could have been cheaper and lighter but it is heavy for a reason. It is extremely solid and well put together. It tows fantasticly on and off road. What other vehicle will be one minute on the road doing 70 miles an hour in comfort and the next minute crossing an arable field pulling a heavy trailer. There is, in my mind, nothing that will do what I want and need for the money. Its not as cheap as many would have wished but the fact that it is selling in good numbers must be an indication that there is a market out there.
I agree that the Jimny is very good and if it was bigger with a greater towing capability it would find a large customer base. There is a market for both the Grenadier and the Jimny. Horses for Courses.
See you after a couple of years to see how it handles age and passing miles ;)
You can’t please everyone all the time
@@BabaNovac792 Yes we will see just like any new model. The commentator has put his hard earned money down and will do that for the rest of us who are unwilling to do so. And I look forward to the results and hope for positives. Cheers
I don’t believe at any stage ineos decided to build a replacement of the defender . The truth is you couldn’t possibly do so. Since the defenders creation and evolution we live in a completely different legal a manufacturing principled world.
I might possibly suggest Instead Ineos intended to take the spirt of the defender and apply it as much as they could with the design boundaries of the world today.
I would suggest the theme and tittle is naive or may be there to provoke !
I’ve just returned from Iceland in the grenadier we where in a group with land cruisers land rovers and g wagons.. hand on heart the most capable vehicle was the grenadier…. Incredible engineering…But it does need lifting … next Job 👍👍
@@timbayes141 Other than your first hand experience with the vehicle (because I don't own one), I absolutely agree with you. Cheers
Scott Brady from Expedition Portal just took delivery of his year long Grenadier loaner in South Africa and will be driving North thru the continent. It should be a good and balanced test of this vehicle.
that's what he's sore about.
Brady is a lot of things but objective, intentional, and critical of vehicles and brands is not one of them. He can too many business interests between the journal and website to be able to be direct and honest
@@chihweiteng253 yeah probably
Andrew, I own a Trialmaster and am very happy with it (although I haven't heavily tested it offroad yet). I do agree that it would be great if a cheaper/more basic option could be made available to open ownership to a wider market. However, I disagree with your comment on Ineos closing the market for accessory providers to take advantage themselves. The roof-rack is an option the vehicle comes with but it is made by Rhino-Rack (not Ineos) and there is no requirement to purchase this brand as many others will fit. Also, the switch panel in the roof with blank switches will be very useful to me, as an enthusiast, as I will be able to easily wire up 3rd party accessories that I require. At present Ineos provides little in the way of accessories and if the roof-rack serves as an indicator of the direction they intend to follow it looks like the accessory market will be open to all (although only time will tell).
As a Series 3 Land Rover owner as well I never expected the Grenadier to be as fully basic as a Defender but it is still a vehicle that is extremely capable, adaptable to what I want it to be but is not so gentrified that it cannot be hosed out when dirty inside like Defender.
Well said! Andrews comments about accessories were incorrect. There’s an accessory catalogue on the website but the aftermarket is beginning to offer options. Just be patient Andrew !
Watched a video the other day from a firm in Switzerland that already has an extensive range of aftermarket gear for the Ineos. Including a very ingenious roof rack system.
@@hmp125 yep Black Sheep, went to see them yesterday and they do great quality work with fantastic innovations....even though I stilll drive and love my 110 😉
"it cannot be hosed out when dirty inside like Defender" You are wrong for you can do exactly that with the Trialmaster. Go check their website.
After Andrew lost it over the beeping in a PAJERO, I take what he says now with a large pinch of salt. But still enjoy the traveling side of what he does so happy to stay subscribed. And before ya'll get upset, I paid to see the early release of him using the 40year old range rover to support his channel.
Careful old boy this clip could be perceived as sourer grapes because you weren't invited to their South African pow wow.
My take is you are still upset Ineos doesn't value your experience and I totally get why they don't want you involved in their marketing or R&D. You haven't evolved to what people now want, instead stuck on this old concept that simple and truck like is what people want.
I own a older 110 and love it (still got her), bought a new 110 for my touring as I need comfort, more power, better towing capabilities etc. The new 110 is everything you need and more. Unreal what LR have achieved.
People whinge its not a real defender - utter BS. The real truth comes to one simple fact; people whinge when they can't afford something and only few people get off their butt and go achieve their dreams.
Move with the times mate, your ego so far ahead of your relevance in this industry, you are falling behind on what is now relevant.
As much as I really wanted a Troopcarrier. Grenadier for the win. Minus your 4 grand for acceptable seats in the Troopy the starting price of the Grenadier was the same at the time of my order. I still have heaps of mods planned but don't have to contend with major engineering issues like the underslung leaf springs, wheeltrack correction and no passenger rear doors. Also check out the location of the stater motor on the Grenadier. It ticks a lot of boxes and I bet for a lot less than an equivalent fitted out Troopy or 300. You'll come round eventually!
But the troopy is propably the more robust and reliable car. Its overengineered to accomodate minesites etc. I on the other hand already towed my first grenadier. I think i would gladly pay 10% extra to get 50% more reliable car.
You can correct the troopcarrier wheeltrack easier than the left foot issue on the grenadier (LHD)... also, good luck with that BMW engine and Hitech gearbox... lets see how many mechanics in the middle of Africa can take care of it...
Absolutely true
So true! All these companies need to offer a bare basic model, who needs all these sensors and leather seats in a vehicle you want to take off-road.. these Ineos are 40k over priced…
Andrew, you are indeed a brave one. Thank you for explaining in depth the heart and soul of the vehicle. My concern would be in the drivetrain. Alloy engine blocks overall seem to have a shorter lifespan than the older cast iron versions. My guess is you would have a solid opinion in the difference of the two.
Absolutely hit the nail on the head Andrew!! It would be so great to see any manufacturer release a 4x4 with minimal electronics and unnecessary extras, let us decide how we want to build our off road vehicles. 👍
I'm trusting once they recoup some costs on sales of the current line up, they will release a basic pickup with half the electronic sh*t and much less expensive.
they might be able to in small markets like Australia, but european emission regulation simply means you can't have a big heavy car without a ton of electronics to get fuel consumption down.
@steinar.offroad i thought Australia is one of the biggest markets for such a vehicle
@@ToxxicMafia not that many people live in Australia when compared to Europe or North America, and there is a LOT more competition in Australia than there is in Europe.
@@steinar.offroad makes sense
I have just taken delivery of my Trialmaster after a very long wait. Loving it. Those thinking it is expensive seem out of touch with what vehicles cost these days, also to be compliant with modern safety and environmental regulations a ton of technology is necessary which just wasn’t a topic all those years ago. I have driven thousands of Kilometres in Series 3 / Defender / Wolf and am very happy with the Ineos Grenadiers modern take on these vehicles. The Recaro seats are great btw - why would you bother installing anything else?
I love this take.
Andrew loves to spend a lot of money in little bits, not in one go. He is just jealous he did not came up with the overhead buttons himself and Ineos already putting in good seats. Now he has got no excuse to put in a full leather interior, like sitting inside a cow, himself. And that nags him.
I still have my deposit in but I can't justify to spend the cost for this vehicle even in a basic form. $5K for a winch! Certainly there is inflation but that's just wrong. I think the Prado 250 will take my money.
The fact people pay well north of 100k for a 70 series now in Australia suggests that the price is right really.
I do agree bothe the 70 and the ineos should be more like 50k basic vehicle's that you build up yourself.
I have watched this channel a long time, but I think you go a bit far here in speaking for “the community”. I for one am happy to buy a vehicle that is basically done, and will require minimal mods. I’ve never liked having to pull diffs apart or chop frame mounts just to make a car clear the shocks and tires I want. Yeah, it’s expensive, but it’s not really very expensive compared with similar size vehicles that I would need to put a lot of time and money into to get them working the same. I do wish we had a diesel in the US, though.
What a pleasure to listen to someone sensible, unbiased and knowledgable. I’ve been going through reviews but they all sound like scripted ads, even though when critical, there’s something utterly annoying about them, some ‘watch the cool vid, get hyped’ urgency in the way it’s directed. Here I can hear an honest man, being on topic in a down to earth, yet entertaining way. Thanks for that.
For the US market I disagree with your assessment of stripping it out. The base price of the grenadier in the US is $71k US which is a lot of money, but realistically it's only $5-15k more than a Jeep wrangler Rubicon. From the onset this was going to be an enthusiast vehicle that needed mass market appeal to survive. The standard buyer won't be doing expeditions across Africa or Australia and most people that can afford new cars like this are going to have well above average income or wealth. The base drivetrain and body for the vehicle likely makes up the first $60k and the creature comforts might make up the last $10k. Nobody that can afford a $60k vehicle is going to want to give up those power windows, climate control, or nicer seats. The most basic 4dr Jeep wrangler is $38k, but almost every one on the dealer lots are $50k+. The new Ford Bronco can easily hit $70k MSRP as well. New car buyers want the features and Grenadier has to have broader market appeal than just wealthy enthusiasts.
Brother I would agree with your premise if the 70 series wasn’t 100k AUD
My dreams were also crushed by the high price tag. I agree that there should be a bare bones basic version. However.
I think we're making two errors
1. Overestimation of the cost for the fancy stuff.
2. Underestimating the cost of engineering this vehicle.
By design it will be expensive to make. The fancy stuff is added to enlarge appeal. As the sales fugures on the Wrangler, Gwagen Professional and the old Defender suggests, the market for a true bog standard vehicle is really small.
Problem with a gclass professional isnt that there is no market here(germany) it just starts at like 50-60k euros...... a ranger or hilux is less than 45 brand new most of the time with all amenities; a barebones ranger costs 29k less than half the price of the gclass professional. And i know that they arent really comparable offroad wise, but most people would rather lift a 35K ranger and then struggle at some spots, instead of outright paying double for a grenadier or gclass
you can buy three Jimnys for the price of one of these. Don't tell me it can't be done. They didn't try. They lost track of costs when the Austrians started on the engineering. They built a G-Wagen. Not a Defender.
I disagree on the seats. I want to be comfortable, even while off-roading. Maybe they should offer an option of more basic lower cost seats, but I would still choose these (I'd pick the cloth insert version). I think these seat appeal to a larger market than just people such as yourself.
This review sounds more like jealousy than an honest review. If you want a Landcruiser, Andrew, buy one. That’s why OEMs differentiate.
The price is high because regulators tax the shit out of heavy, basic, inefficient cars (at least in the EU). If they came to market with a 100,000 dollar exact copy of the defender, with all the luxery of the 70 series, you'd still complain about the price.
But no-one would buy it, because anyone who can afford the grenadier but doesn't need the utility will go for the new defender, and anyone who wants to go traveling will think it isn't worth it because it doesn't offer any features, and it doesn't have a proven reliability record.
This car is competing with the new defender, the sprinter 4x4, and the hilux/amarok/ranger based camper builds. It is not competing with old defenders or the LC 70 series. At least not for 95+% of sales ineos will do.
Once they sell enough vehicles, and (hopefully) have a reputation for reliability, they will likely release a more basic version, in order to expand their market. Any new car manufacturer has to produce expensive vehicles first, before they can release cheap options, in order to keep investors happy.
As with every utility type vehicle,I want basic and inexpensive,You nailed it
As a car engineer I know what it cost to develop a completely new car. Safety, emissions, security, reliability are so expenive to achieve for a new car. On top the build a very special type of car. How many cars are on the market with a ladder frame, solid axels, coil springs, lockers...? And at the end of the day you have place your car in the world wide market. Sameone has to pay for all the development because as enthusiastic as they are, they have to pay there emloyees. The car is sold in europe and in the US as well. And they have to pass the regulations to be able to sell the car e.g. here in Germany. By the way: Those regulations are the reason why you cannot get a 70 sereies from a german Toyota dealership. And funny enough, base price of a new JL Wrangler in Germany ist 80k, about the same as the Grenadier. Defender 110 is actually the cheapest of the three cars in Europe.
The car is not perfect. (there is not any perfect car in the world) but it is an additional option to wranglers, 70s, or anything else.
Maybe we have to ask ourselfs: Is it even possible to build a Defender replacement? And why would you want one? It will always be heavier, more complex, more electronics and more expensive than the old one.
Andrew, let's get this right.....
You haven't even driven an IG yet. Correct (you sat in a prototype and where driven around).
Your 'business' is based around getting others to 'build' 70 Series by correcting all the inherent flaws by spending enormous amounts of $$. Correct.
Ineos build a car pretty much to the specs you have been whining about for years. Correct.
You love the MB W461. Correct, even though when it was available in Oz cost well in excess of the IG (which is engineered by the same people Magna Steyr). Correct, but you don't like the IG because it is less expensive than the MB (when available), and more expensive than a 70 Series, yet infinitely better from the factory than the Toyo. Correct.
You have replaced your rubbish OEM 70 Series seats with Recaros. Correct. Ineos install Recaros from factory cheaper than what anyone can buy them retail. But you try and attack the whole premise of the IG for this single point? Correct.
In an earlier video (when you were trying to ingratiate yourself with Ineos Australia, you praised the IG for its roof mounted controls. Correct, but now you don't like it. Correct.
Ineos refused to 'support' you or enter into a 'commercial arrangement' with you, nor invite you on a journo drive in SA (even though you are not a journalist), so you try and criticise the vehicle. Correct.
Andrew, you forget that people review your earlier videos on the Grenadier (the ones you haven't pulled down - lets not go there, shall we?). You are making an embarrassment of yourself through all your contradictions.
You are not coming across well though this whole 'bash' Ineos simple because they rejected your unsolicited proposals to them.
C'mon, you are better than this.
I love how you go on about price and yet the 79 series is stupidly expensive and needs almost the original purchase price spent on it again to make it acceptable 🤣
Andrew has defined himself into a niche that only fits a Frankenstein troopy build. He’ll have to compromise on his “must haves” to do anything new. His Grenadier videos have been among his most viewed in the last couple of years so I can understand his frustration that it’s not a troopy.
Someone has summed it up perfectly: It’s a vehicle with an identity crisis, initially aiming to be a British built, basic, cheap, utility vehicle, but ended up being an Austrian designed, French built, complex and expensive toy for the wealthy.
Very frustrating!!! Such potential for an amazing blank canvas-and they splattered layers of paint all over it!
I would rather they offer a model with canvas seats, crappy on road tires, no carpet, roll up windows, no radio… call it “The Sergeant” or “The Dragoon” or “The Snail”… whatever! Just offer a basic one as you said!!!
And when you asked about what it offers over a Jeep, I opened my mouth to speak but you said it! Payload alone is a big deal, but again, too fancy.
Hopefully they will listen to you and common sense.
We shall see!
Anyway, great review!
It’s basically a modern version of the discovery 3. That’s it’s lineage, nothing like a defender other than if you squint. And if you take a discovery 3 and squint hard you’ll find that looks like a defender too! The point is ineos fell into that same trap exactly as Andrew points out. The gap in the market for a basic, fix it yourself, affordable, utility 4wd is still left wide open and grenadier just dumped itself (by accident or design) on the same old heap as every other SUV currently available competing for the same market share.
For those of you that know motorbikes, royal Enfield are doing what ineos failed to do! You can buy a brand new royal Enfield motorbike for £4K. It will be made abroad cheaply, very reliable and ultra basic, and cheap enough for everybody to afford one! They’ve cracked it! Ineos grenedier SHOULD have been the royal Enfield Himalayan of the car world but nope. They goofed it. And I’ll go and buy a hilux and let all the Chelsea mums go and buy grenadiers. That is their target audience after all.
Andrew - thank goodness I won't have to listen to any of your opinions on the Grenadier anymore.
My impression is that what Ineos was actually trying to create was a slightly more butch and slightly more “affordable” G-Wagon for urban “off-roaders”
Correct, you’ll see a lot of them driven by wealthy mums on the school run - what a waste!
Maybe they didn't go wit G wagon i mind, but that's what they created. Cheeper G wagon.
Guess a stripped version is on it’s way for the future. All car manufacturers start with the upgraded versions first, later adding the basic version.
Yeah I mean, look at Tesla when they started out with the first generation Roadster which shared parts with Lotus sports car.
I was so excited about the Grenadier. When I heard they were putting their USA headquarters in my city (Raleigh, NC), I was even more excited. I’ve been to all of their events within 500 miles. I’ve held a paid reservation for several years. I guessed they would be above their initial target price of $50k, but not by $40k. I can’t justify it. Two years of dreaming for naught. The value for money just isn’t there.
Great video, so true. Less stuff, less weight. Back to basics. All car manufacturers are doing the same.
I knew you were going to say 'Jimny' before you said it! A solid vehicle without too much fancy stuff is the most exciting place to start. My troopy didn't even have a basic entertainment system when I bought it, just blank slots, which I love.
I'm not sure if I would disagree or agree. Both sides have valid points. Whether the Grenadier is a worthy successor to the Defender can be answered with both yes and no.
I, personally, would say yes. The Grenadier is an all-terrain vehicle, through and through. In addition, the Grenadier basically has no competition in its class.
What are the alternatives, at least the most obvious ones?
The new Defender? Don't really have to say anything. An on-road SUV that's a tiny bit better off-road than a Range Rover or any other SUV.
The G-Class? The basic price of the G-Class is significantly more expensive than the Grenadier AND is now also a road SUV. As far as I know, not even the G-Professional has a rigid front axle anymore.
The Land Cruiser 300? Also more of an SUV than an off-road vehicle. The same arguments apply here as for the G-Class and the new Defender.
These three vehicles are all similarly new, like the Grenadier. They therefore form a comparative class, since the state of the art in the vehicle also has to be compared.
The old Defender? There is no longer. There are still used models that are in very good condition or even fully restored, but the model itself is outdated. The technology is old, as is the entire vehicle. The old Defender is actually no longer state-of-the-art.
The Land Cruiser 70? Mega vehicle. Absolute top class. But old. The 70 series is great for off-road enthusiasts, but it's also a vehicle that's outdated these days. That doesn't make it bad - any more than the old Defender - but age comes with a price. The 70 series obviously has the advantage of being perfectly integrated on the market. There are parts and ideas for it without end. Nevertheless, the Grenadier can only be compared with the 70 series to a limited extent, because this is the comparison between a new vehicle model and a vehicle model that is over 40 years old.
The jeep? The Jeep is the only vehicle that can be directly compared to the Grenadier. Because the Jeep is a pure off-road vehicle - like the Grenadier. This is where the differences become really clear. The jeep is there to drive as a vehicle over rough terrain. Here, the ability to overcome is in the foreground. The Grenadier is primarily a utility vehicle, with off-road capability as part of its utility.
The Jimny? The Jimny is also a comparable vehicle, but on a completely different scale.
In order to compare the Grenadier meaningfully, you have to compare it with comparable vehicles, i.e. with real off-road vehicles. Any soft off-roaders that are primarily intended for the road are no real competition for the Grenadier. Of course you can still compare the Grenadier with the new Defender, the G-Class and the LC300, but then you also have to include the intention behind the vehicles. The Jeep and the Jimny are both true off-road vehicles in my opinion. Both have their strengths and weaknesses.
So what about the grenadier now? Is it too expensive?
I can't answer this question with a yes or no either. The Grenadier is actually very expensive, but I'm not sure if it's too expensive. Even in the absolute basic version, the Grenadier here in Germany costs €81,890 for the Station Wagon, €71,140 for the two-seater Utility Wagon, €72,640 for the five-seater Utility Wagon and also €81,890 for the Quatermaster pick-up. That's a hell of a lot of money, but the equipment is absolutely first class too.
I agree 100% that, at the moment, the Grenadier build is inappropriate for true off-road enthusiasts. But not all Ineos customers are like that. The Grenadier is also clearly aimed at commercial users - farmers, craftsmen, construction workers, foresters, etc. For many customers it is a very big plus that the Grenadier come with so much off-road equipment from the factory. The advantage of this is that those who don't want to put the time and money into the conversion can buy a fully equipped vehicle that comes with a manufacturer warranty - on all accessories - winch, differential locks, roof rack, bull bar, raised air intake etc.
Conversely, of course, all this makes the Grenadier unattractive for real off-road enthusiasts. This is not due to the vehicle itself, but to the manufacturer's offers. That's why I'm going one step further than you with my idea: a completely stripped-down basic variant that isn't even roadworthy! No seats at all - why install seats at all when customers want to change them anyway = saves money. No batteries at all - why put a battery in at all when customers want to change them anyway = saves money. No sound and infotainment system at all, no multifunction steering wheel - why should you install technology that many customers don't even want = saves money. No interior trim at all - why should you design the interior if customers want to change it anyway. No additional electrics at all - why install something that customers want to do themselves anyway.
In other words, a vehicle that basically consists exclusively of the components that are absolutely necessary for driving, which just about meets all the necessary legal safety standards, but is otherwise really just a bare body. A vehicle where EVERYTHING is optional, which is not mandatory by law.
And yes, of course, a Van. I would like to have a two-door Quatermaster with a Van body instead of a bed - bigger, wider, higher - a Grenadier version just like the Troopy compared to the 76.
100% right Andrew. The base model work horse that can be fitted out along the way is by far more desirable and garners respect from the average user.
The Jeep JK stopped manufacture 5 years ago. I am surprised that Andrew does not know that.
Really well done review and hit the mark. I live in the northwest US and was initially extremely excited about the Grenadier. I was able to see the prototype tour when it came to Seattle in Jan 2022. The group was small and we were able to have a 2-hour Q&A. No performance figures were given, but it was heavily hinted that the starting price would be around $65k US. I thought that was a little on the high side - yes, it is capable, but looking at the North American market you’re pitting it against the Jeeps and Toyota 4Runner and Tacomas. The Jeeps are similar in pricing, but the 4Runner has better performance for significantly lower pricing. We had one that was $47k new (with tax) and had very good off-road performance. And the North American market pales to what you can get globally (i.e.70-series Land Cruisers, Hilux pickups, etc.). The storage was significantly less than the 4Runner, which surprised me. I had every intention before I viewed it of putting a deposit down to get my place in line, but the facts above combined with the lack of specification information at that time led me not to. With the pricing and specs finally released starting at $71k US and a fuel economy of 15mpg US, I honestly don’t see the appeal. I was so excited to see Ineos pick up the ball where Land Rover dropped it, but comparing it to similar types of Toyota products is really no comparison.
The Ineos Grenadier is really more aimed at the Mercedes G wagon as a rival. In America, people looking at a G wagon, don’t even consider a Ford, GM or Toyota.
If they were still building the original defender today it would be Grenadier price, no question.
Well said....seems folks these days have no clue about how much things cost, or how much to start a car company from scratch. If you can't afford it, move on and buy something you can!
My view is the Grenadier pricing in Australia is quite realisitic especially vs recent and new Defenders not to mention LC 300 or Nissan YG 62 or the G wagon.
Yeh, spend 100k on a LC79, then another 50k upgrading all the basic and uncomfortable stuff.
Never buy Japanese cars.. please remember how many people they killed during last war
@@stebee9743 I couldn't agree more. Buy a new vehicle and remove half, so you can promote sponsors products.
Or maybe they are all over priced…
How is the lc79 DOUBLE the price of a crew cab 4x4 hilux?
@@DanHall777 don’t buy japs cars…. Remember ww2?
Dont know if I shouldve expected this level nitpickery or not from this channel but certainly never disagreed more with this channel than on this video. Rant of a man who likes what he likes and if you disagree you must be wrong
I got out of the offroad game last year when I sold my Discovery 1. Thought the Grenadier was going to be my reentry point until I hopped on their configurator and saw what base price was here in the US. There’s just no way I could justify spending that much. What I fear is going to happen with this vehicle, at least here where I live in Scottsdale, Arizona, is they’ll all be specced and bought by the same crowd that buys G-Wagons and those who coveted NAS Defenders into 6 figure pricing, meaning most people will only see them braving the wilds of the Scottsdale Fashion Center parking garage, and very few, if any, ever touching a tire to dirt.
I do feel like this is a bit of a hot take for lack of a better term. I agree it is a lot of money but that is the market these days. When you consider the fact that even pre-Covid a 200 Series in the US was $90k I don’t think the Grenadier is absurd starting at $72k in 2023. Additionally, as a Jeep JL owner that has driven the Grenadier, I would say the Ineos is more comparable to a GWagen than a Wrangler. Ineos buyers are buying a Grenadier for half the cost of a GWagen instead of double the cost of a BASE Wrangler… Don’t forget, we live in a time where you can option a Wrangler over $90k.
At last...someone who is actually talking some sense!
Andrew I’ve followed you for a number of years as I make decisions on how to enter the overlanding community and find your content brilliant. As we will tow an off-road van for some of our travels our vehicle choice narrowed down to a landcruiser or grenadier. The quote for a GXL with a bull bar and tow bar was $3k more expensive than a heavily optioned grenadier trialmaster. I understand the point you make however the ineos is more affordable than a basic landcruiser. Comfortable seats are an option we would have opted for in a vehicle we plan to spend a lot of time in. Time will tell if we have made the right decision with the grenadier. There is also a big advantage for those of us not as mechanically capable as you in having warranties from the factory for accessories. I am interested in your commentary after driving a production vehicle. I don’t care so much about ineos replacing the old Land Rover, I’m more interested in whether the grenadier is a good vehicle and whether it represents value for money.
Andrew is NOT mechanically capable, his videos prove that. His more of a driver come film maker. Making the comments he does on the engineering of other cars is usually subjective and not based on anything other than personal preference.
Defenders were not " cheap" as you claim. They started at $78,000 back in 2016 and you can easily pay $130k + even for a 3 year old one still. Although it obviously resembles the Defender, I've never heard anyone involved claim they were replacing the Defender directly. It seems you are criticising them based more on what you wanted, or wished they would have done. They did exactly what they intended.
Each eeeeeccchhhh! You're right, On INEOS journey they have missed all the road signs telling them to make it basic. Also, I agree with your take on Jimny. You need to mention that Suzuki needs to make the Jimny XL, the one we would love to have in the States! Great video Andrew! I also enjoyed seeing you driving at high speeds.
Suzuki sell a 4 door XL Jimny in India
Although, Andrew, the Wg/WJ Grand Cherokee was a monocoque, but Porsche got involved, and, yep, it was still a monocoque.
However, it was terrifically strong, with live axles, and they could, and still, be modified like crazy.
I'm not a particular Jeep fan, having owned a ZG/ZJ Grand Cherokee ORVIS Editions, and 2 WG/WJ Grand Cherokee Overlands. 4.7 High Output OHC V8s on the last 2, and the blue one was taken off the road at 413,000km. That was a bloody stupid move on my part, as it was still stock, and road-legal - I became paranoid about valve seats dropping, as that is fatal to the HO engines, as you cannot repair the heads, (alone), for less than NZ $4K each.
The silver one got sold, as I sold it at half the mileage, but Covid destroyed my business. I had to pay the bills, so off it went.
I regret parting with the later2 - wasn't too fuss about the Orvis, even though is was the only one in the Southern Hemisphere.
I sincerely don't believe that I'd buy another Jeep. Too, too many issues
Your suggested version of the Ineos sounds attractive, but their being BMW-powered puts me off a hell of a lot, as I've had 2 consecutive awful BMW experiences.
I agree about the Jimny, and I'm seeing more and more of them on the road here in NZ.
They're a serious option.
My Grenadier does not replace the Defender it is a big step up from the Defender and less expensive than LRJ current models 😃
You are both right & wrong about this, in my opinion. Yes you are correct that the Grenadier is too expensive and comes with too many things a real enthusiast might wish to have added themselves and made it personal/ unique. I think you are wrong about Ineos aiming to capture & win over nostalgic Defender owners - these folks will stick with Land Rover no matter what. Real enthusiasts will have invested time & money in their older Defenders or Land Cruisers and are not looking to buy off the shelf ready to go adventure vehicles. The new Grenadier is looking at the would be adventurer, the types that live in fancy apartments in central London, that don’t carry out work on their own cars. They love the idea of going off road or having weekend adventures but have no clue about how to make a trail repair. These cars are destined to sit in underground car parks and make the occasional trip out to the Cotswolds. This is where Ineos has identified their customer base. The pub going beard-strokers that enjoy stripping down their suspension at the weekends just for fun won’t be buying the Grenadier. Ineos know this. Same way that Land Rover know that those buying the NEW defender are not folks that owned the OLD defender. Let’s face it, if Ineos only sold vehicles to enthusiasts that loved to modify their own cars, then this whole project would never have got off the ground. Their business model relies on selling an off-the-shelf dream to those would-be weekend adventurers. In that respect, yes, you are correct, this car is compromised in so many ways.
Simply brilliant! You've hammered the nail on its head!
as usual ... the best free consultation an offroad brand can have is listening to Andrew.
Expensive? Yes. Too many standard options, perhaps. Let's be honest. In, now, 2023, even most enthusiasts don't want to drive an ox cart. The Defender goes too far in the plush direction, while the Ineos is probably a bit more balanced, without sacrificing some much needed improvements to bring it more current. Only manual, limited engines... the old Defender. That aged it prematurely imo.
Wow, i think this is the first video of yours where i disagree almost entirely.
-The roof switches: You as well as we all know, that it's the develloping costs of the rof switches that are what makes the price, and not if they are in every car or not. So either everyone has them and the devlloping costs for it to work under all ciscurmstances, not rattle, make sense in the way to use them ect. are spread over every owner, making them actually way cheaper than any after market solution, or you would create a really expensive extra, and you would argue that it would be a too expensive extra.
-The Recaro seats: As you pointed out, their deal is going to be way cheaper than what you can get on the after market.
It's obvious that a huge number of seats ordered in almost stable numbers for a certain time is going to cost way way less than on demand production for individual seats.
And what you seem to ignore (which to me is unlike your normal self) is again develloping costs: with the recaro seats they only had ot put them into the car and check that they won't rattle. With any "cheap" unfancy seat they would have designed themselves they would have had to spend more money and time on. And "just take the seats of a Dacia Duster" doesn't work either, cause Renault in this case would most likely also want soem money for Ineos to use them, and in the end that costs the same as getting good seats by REcaro in the first place.
- In general i am astonished at you are seemingly ignoring where the actual price of the Grenadier comes from. (I mean you are well read and experienced and it is the fist time i see a video where you don't see the tree because of all the forest.)
Vehicle devellopment. They wanted to achieve a reliable , rugged and safe car in the first go. Which is an immense difficult undertaking. how many car manufacturer in the last few years can you name that have succeded in such an endeaver? I know none.
Even well established manufacturers when bringing a new car to the market often have lot's of issues for the first few years. (Some throughout the lifetime of the model)
And when you take Ineos, their Grenadier wasn'T devlloped by Chuck down at the corner for 2 Beers and a Steak. The Grenadier was develloped by specialists in that field.
The devellopment was done by Magna in Graz. That's the guy who (under previous name Steyr Daimler Puch) develloped the G class for Mercedes and 90% of all 4wd and awd systems on the roads of this planet at the moment.
And thorough devellopment costs a lot of money.
-The Jimney: Again, why is the Jimney so cheap? Because it is an evolution of a previous model and the numbers and other Suzukis made it cheaper: A big company like Suzuki doesn't have to earn back all the devellopment costs for the Jimney by selling Jimneys, they can spread all their car devellopment costs across all of their product line, and share already develloped things across models which also reduces the price hugely.
If they had made the Jimney from scratch like the Grendier, and only made the Jimney, it would still be a little cheaper than the Grendier, but you would critizise them for the price they would have to ask for the Jimney then. It would be a really very expensive little car.
For your 79 series land cruiser Toyota has long come even with the develloping costs, and if you take that into accout, the earning margin of Toyota from the 79 series ones is huge. (They didn't go down in price much did they? And yet the big costs are long earned back by Toyota)
You are not a business man. Sorry. And you are using harsh words for the Grenadier.
When you build a company from scratch (like Elon Musk did), you spend your capital and you need to get a return on it. So you build a product market segment by market segment. Did Elon start with the cheap Tesla 3? No he didn’t. He started with an expensive roadster for $250k. Afterwords a Tesla S for $120k… until much later during his upscaling where he launched a Tesla 3 for a third of that price.
Why should it be any different for Ineos? We should actually be very fortunate that we get an excellent vehicle for €70k to €80k VAT included right from the start.
I am sure other vehicles in other segments will follow in 5 to 10 years that will be marketed in other price segments. 2023 is the start of the sales process.
Cheers
P.S: love my Recaro seats
Andrew. Have you actually driven a Grenadier ? I suspect not, so why not put your toys back in the pram and walk away.
Had one on order , found out MPG was 15MPG combined - bought a Jeep JL and love it.
Cool, so you saw the official EPA rating on the MPG. Cause the brochure is not the official number since they are still working on it. BTW, the EU guys using US standards are getting closer to combined 18 on their petrol which puts you right with you Jeep JL.
@@peopleschamp7258 the Jeep Wrangler gets an EPA-estimated 22 mpg combined - nice try though.
@JoeTimmons79 Joey, Joey baby, you might want to get your eyes checked. I thought maybe Joey kid is right and I was wrong. It happens. I went on Jeep's site and everyone I looked at had 17 city and 22 highway with combined of 20. The 392 was 13 city and 17 highway with 15 combined. I also noticed that jeep can only tow 2k pounds.
@@peopleschamp7258 I am getting 24 mpg combined on road with my Jeep JLU 3.6 auto. I am easy on the gas, but that 8 Speed transmission really helps improve the fuel economy.
Prices in Austria (available vehicles at dealership) Grenadier starting at USD 120k, Toyota LC J15/Prado USD 75k.
You talk a LOT and surely know more about the 4x4 topic than most. My question is however, how many thousand kilometres have you actually driven in a Grenadier, which would actually qualify you to judge it more objectively?
Andrew, you are correct in your conclusion. And while I could argue that the Recarro seats from the factory probably don't cost that much more than a uncomfortable seat that has been designed from scratch. And I could argue that having the wiring and switches in place make adding things later much easier. Neither of those change the fact that I can't justify spending the money (US) for base Grenadier. And if I configure it the way I want (about $8k more than base) from Ineos I still struggle to justify the price because the price is still too high because of the starting point is too high. But then a Billionaire is going to struggle to understand the finances of the working person, and so design choices were made. The Grenadier wasn't designed for the working class man or woman. It was designed for the "well off" and higher person because the people that made the design decisions are incapable of understanding the finances of the masses.
No he's not right in his conclusion, I suspect that if he was to divulge the labour costs of his last troop carrier build , you'd be more than shocked, possibly double the cost of the Grenadier, ask the question,?see how the finances compare. 👍
@@stephenhankey688 You seem triggered. May just be coming across the wrong way in written words though. What is it that you think is Andrew's conclusion? I kind of doubt you remember what the question was. I'll remind you. The question was, "Is the Grenadier a replacement for the original LR Defender?". The conclusion was, "No, it isn't." The original Defender was a affordable, decent off roader, that was uncomfortable, unreliable and required constant maintenance and had the driving characteristics that were just this side of the tractor that is the Uni-mog. I'm not even saying it is a bad thing that the Grenadier isn't a replacement for the Defender. The Grenadier is indeed a lot better than the Defender in many, many ways.
The base cost for just the vehicle is the problem. If it was US$60K then it would be a lot more justifiable. But at US$71K not enough people will buy the basic version to provide the incentive for the aftermarket to make parts for the Grenadier. Less aftermarket support for the Grenadier means people will buy a Jeep or a Toyota because they have the aftermarket support.
Maybe the price of the Grenadier will come down in a few years. Or the rest of the market will raise their prices and the Grenadier will become more attractive to buyers.
And yes, I'm aware the Andrew's 70-series builds likely exceed a $100k price tag. The price difference between the base Grenadier and the base 70-series is the difference in what one can afford to purchase aftermarket parts and have them installed.
7:45 I said this, I believe, in the comments of your first video a couple years back when you covered the Ineos. I said this was just another lifestyle vehicle for rich guys and not a utility vehicle for all of the back roads of the world. Are there no companies that care about giving quality to people who aren't rich? I'm going into my second year, waiting for my ordered Ford Maverick. Ford was just paying lip service to the media when it was talking about releasing a budget pick up. VERY FEW inexpensive Mavericks are on the road. They always make the expensive orders first. Ineos: another plaything for rich guys. Love Andrew. Thanks for the honest videos.
Andrew, is the GWM TANK much different to the INEOS? And at half the price? Would love you to do a real world review.
A simple “Thankyou Ineos, good luck and can I become a Patreon of yours” would’ve sufficed.
To expect the FIRST model launched of ANY car to nail absolutely everything is naive to say the least.
As with Tesla…the first models usually prove concept and market, selling to early adopters who have a sense of adventure, want and will pay for something unique.
The cheaper models usually follow….BUT need the first ones to sell.
Much appreciated this episode, when this dream started a number of years ago I wished for an updated Defender, but as the months rolled by and the coordinated news releases happened, my secret dream of Defender legacy been extended were slowly crushed.
As you rightly state it is just another high status high price 4x4 which the original never was.
I'll stick with my 105 and pay for my own upgrades and use my own hands to create my dream.
ps. they could have charged more for a bog standard base model and made more money, doesnt make sense.
Agree, I bought well looked after stock 105 GXL, 340 km,19k, spent 25+, only requires now diff locker and maybe auto upgrade, GVM and turbo engineered as well within 25k!
The audience for the car you want Ineos to build probably equates to less than 1% of sales. The other 99% will be city vehicles.
i am also a owner of a greadier. for me is it a masterpiece. also the parts what i can buy form the factory is amazing. why i should spend more money for a winch if i can buy it from the factory? i think its a perfect way to buy it out of the factory with stuff i normally would by in the aftermarket.
only the tuning circle is very bad. the suspension is great. also fully loaded. also verny good with 100kg on the roof. the car drives much much better that i expected on the road and offroad.
the price yeah its too high. it is
Well said 👏
I clicked thumbs up and seen i'm not subscribed for some reason. I have been subbed forever! Great job UA-cam...
Thanks for this wonderful video! I always appreciate the wisdom you share!
Absolutely smashed the nail on the head! They are way to expensive for the people even interested in them.
You’ll see lots of them driven by wealthy mothers on the school run, the polar opposite of whom should be buying these vehicles.
@@stonemarten1400 A sale is a sale.
@@2157AFAye, true enough, but some might have buyers regret when negotiating a mini roundabout in the suburbs with the woeful 14m turning circle of the Grenadier!
Maybe a milk create is a good option?
I'll take a well built comfortabe chair, probably in cloth thanks.
I've always liked your channel Andrew, except where it comes to Ineos... You went at them a few times expecting a colaberation, you didn't get it, and felt slighted. You made that very clear a while back, and you were rightly called out about it...
It would have been great for your channel had they given you a long term press car to use and abuse as you saw fit, I would have watched that... But when they declined your offer, you got pretty catty...
I reckon you have carried that grudge with you ever since... You criticised the fancy model for having leather, you criticise the roof mounted switch gear, we both know, that putting that in at the factory would not cost that much, especially compared to a one off (or small production run( in the aftermarket... You criticise the Recaro seat... What seats are in your past few 70 series? Recaro, like any other manufacturer can make products that stretch from basic, to brilliant, I doubt the Ineos is going to have top line seats in the base model... Just because it says "Recaro", it does not mean that they came from a 911 Turbo... Recaro also make aircraft seat... not the same ones go into cattle class as go into first class...
You criticise a plastic tray liner... 95 percent of new utes in Australia would be so equipped... The canvas canopy... over security issues.. Tonrneau covers have those same issues, How about going after every other ute builder? I feel sure that will not be the only option...
Mate, if you can't report on the car without exposing your massive bias, don't bother reporting on it at all..
Felt the same, I follow Andrew for a long time, and it shows that he is bitter about Ineos not collaborating with him
A base model Troopy is $75k
The base model Grenadier is listed on Redbook as being $97,000.
But it seems that you could not buy a brand new troop carrier for $75,000 for love nor money.
Dealers have them listed for $100,000 or more with 50 or 60 km on the clock
Those defender seats were the stuff of nightmares 😂😂
Lol “ 13:23 will only stay dry if it doesn’t rain” love it!
Nothing will be right for Andy White - he makes his living critisises everything that he has not designed or promoted or is not sponsored to use - an annoying bumptious individual.
No wonder Ineos chose not to use him.
I dont quite get the point of the video because this topic always works the same and has no new input ever. Hardcore overlanders would love an empty bucket without anything whatsoever ..... Honestly i dont think most people build a designated overlander. In my experience people buy a car to slightly modify (tires, snorkel, roof racks...) but it stays a car to drive for more than overlanding only. I like a well put together interior because im gonna drive it to get groceries once in a while. The grenadier qualifies in a way the old defender couldnt
I agree. I was going to consider buying one, but NOT AT THAT PRICE!
My guess is they had to release them at the price they did in order to try and recover early production costs and some initial R&D.
I'm sure once production ramps up and time draws on, they'll be able to sell them a little less expensively and expand on the range.
Why? I like the price so I won’t be driving the same 4wd those redneck losers or teenagers drive
Except they’ve already increased the price significantly
A few 4x4 reviews coming in from trusted sources now. It seems you are forming an opinion without a lot of real world experience. Best to wait till you actually drive it. It seems to be getting very favourable reviews.
Couldn't have put it better myself. Would have loved a basic version here in the US.
I get ASPW's points but it fails to take into account that this is a first "consumer" release, for fans. In that point it delivers 100%. Easy for Eneos to adjust production to a "commercial" version once it's built buzz. I'm sorry but, it's a bit OTT and arrogant to say that they don't know what they're doing. They just have a business plan.
So, the way i see it, Suzuki has the opportunity of a lifetime. If they make something similar to the Jimny, but 50% bigger...
They also need to change the engine in the Suzuki Jimny - the 1.5 litre normally aspirated petrol doesn’t cut it for power, economy or emissions.
@@stonemarten1400 I agree.
Look at a GWM Tank........