It does however not take account of systems used alongside independent suspension such as air suspension and electronic active roll control. These can help force down the lifted wheels and overcome some of the disadvantages of independent suspension systems, whilst keeping the benefits.
Absolutely love that you guys have off-road LC300 content. They’re not allowing reviewers over here drive the GX550 at all. They’re just showing us features and not capability.
Very interesting video. Thanks to the algorithm of UA-cam, I discovered your channel. For me, the Defender and the LC300 are doing very well. For you guys in Australia, I think that the Patrol Warrior is one of the top off-roaders. Watching you from Madagascar 🇲🇬
i gotta say I'm very impressed by the defender throwing all the offroading rules out of the window, even if that means pushing a whole 4x4 on 2 wheels alone. I'm also very surprised on it being to pull it off with minimal drama. Really rewriting rules.
This is got to be the best explanation of the differences of suspension, sway bars and types tractions controls. Thank you. Looking forward to the next videos
Thanks for the video Robert. Unbiased and educational on every test. I learnt a lot. Good to see the new generations of 4wd's (and the old tech Grenadier still dominating ;) ). Excited to see Part 2.
Very good review thus far. 4 very good vehicles. For me, Patrol and Cruiser are tried and tested and will last ( Durable ). Land Rover, whilst good looking, comfortable and very capable, they are unfortunately unreliable. Simply not an option. The Grenadier has all the makings of a great vehicle. Just needs to prove itself to me over a period of a few years. Reliability, durability and serviceability. I hope it does. Like the concept.
@@jmax850, I have a D4 and I’ve had no major issues 8years and 240,000km so far. I would make a simple suggestion to these LR haters to spend 5 minutes of their time and search just really how reliable their Tojo’s really are.😊
There are several videos about how terrible they are reliability wise. Tfl had to give their defender back after a week because it was so bad. Andrew Saint Pierre White has recently shown and several videos how absolutely terrible they are and not to be relied on in the wilderness. They may be good for tests like this but I would never bet my family's safety on one in the middle of nowhere.
And the winner is the Toyota LC300 gr sports, the Best of all, Toyota is best car manufacturer in whole world, the review it explained everything we need to know. Thanks dude.
Hands down the most educational 4x4 I have ever seen! Using the r/c for the presentation was a brilliant idea and explained all the new modern sistems perfectly. Keep up the good work mate!
You make great videos, Robert, honest and smart and informative. As a modern LR guy I frequently see journos making what I think is a mistake when testing the Defender: using Mud & Ruts mode when it's not needed or even a poor fit for the test. In this first test you were focused on wheel spin as a performance criteria. Well, the Mud & Ruts program deliberately permits more wheel spin than usual because that can help with clearing tyre tread or removing slop from the track when you are truly in muddy terrain. Most off-road driving in a Defender is best tackled in Comfort mode, using "S" mode on the transmission if you're in high range or switching to low range if warranted. The extra terrain response modes are for extreme circumstances - if you want absolutely minimum wheel spin at low speed (along with greatly damped throttle response) then engage rock crawl; to make noisy dramatic progress through muddy holes then grab mud & ruts; climbing sand dunes or beach exits you might want sand mode which minimises individual wheel spin, starts gently and then aggressively maintains momentum; and for surfaces where just keeping going in a straight line is the challenge then engage grass/gravel/snow for gentle acceleration, fast reactions to traction loss and an extra helping of stability control. Seriously, next time you're testing a modern Land Rover off road please give it a go in Comfort mode first, with transmission in "S" mode if in high range.
Not quite - the standard mode is Normal/Road. Mud/Ruts actually increases the BTC intervention over normal, and Rock further again. In any case, it's a closed-loop system which increases braking on the spinning wheel regardless of the Terrain Response mode. All the S mode does is change the transmission shift points (Sport) and in any case those are modified by Terrain Response; earlier upshift in Grass/Gravel/Snow, later in Sand for example. Sand mode does *not* minimise wheelspin, it allows a greater slip angle than others because sand is loose. I have qualified as a Land Rover instructor :-)
Excellent reveiw. Very impressed with the explanations on suspension with the RC's. For me, it made things much easier to understand. No other reviewers out there use RC to help explain 4x4. Great job. Thanks 👍👍
I own Pajero, l200 and jimni and was aware about independent suspension and solid axle. However never really understood pros of solid axle. Now, thanks to you, i finally got it. Great demo on toy cars!!! Very well explained!
I've had 3 LC, still got one, never put a spanner on them, having said that my, friend has had 2 nissan patrols, same thing, both great vehicles and can get them fixed almost anywhere in Aus and will go almost anywhere, that is reason enough to stick to one of those two, cheers good video
Another wonderfully informative video from the great Robert Pepper! Nicely done and I learned things. Thanks. The newer E-KDSS system is a fine addition to off-road capability. Durability is not a parameter of your fine evaluation, but it's an important consideration to those that drive remote and solo (no other vehicles with you off-road). Although I do realize that IFS and IRS components are getting "tougher" on modern 4WDs and have better on-highway comfort and off-road clearance, I still avoid them on my personal vehicles on which I must rely as an off-road trainer and tour guide. On my off-road tours (and I see TONS of different vehicles on my adventure tours), IFS and IRS repairs in the field are 3:1 compared to solid axle vehicles. Perhaps that's just the "luck of the draw," but at that repair ratio, I suspect not. I dislike any type of vehicle repairs in the field, but especially suspension and axle repairs. Again Robert, I thank you for your most excellent videos. IMHO the best non-ego and truthful 4WD videos on UA-cam.
Great video, very informative and interesting. I drove off road pretty much all my working life. New cars definitely got more comfortable and reliable over the years, but they also got more gadgets and complicated. I found the "best" 4x4's......................are the ones that haven't got a few hundred critical sensors you can't possibly identity in the bush or possibly carry spares.......... My rule was "always to keep it simple"
Bought a 2019 Toyota Landcruiser 2.8 D-4D Invincible It was a nightmare from about 7K miles .... multiple problems going into limb mode when towing 2 ton trailer off road uphill resulted in numerous visit to dealers 3 exhaust filters 2 engines @ 28K miles I got rid of it when 2 nd replacement engine lost power from continuous limb mode when towing up hill. In my experience there's good & bad in every modern vehicle, just hope you stay lucky with your Grenadier. My most reliable towing off road vehicle in last 10 years PHEV Mitsubishi 4x4 , it's never went wrong in 100k miles 🤠
I'm quite surprised how unrefined the Traction Control is on the Ineos, looks to even be a step behind the Discovery 2 traction control that was launched in 1999. Probably a good thing it has twin lockers
I understand this is off the shelf vehicles but to be honest the first thing you you with the LC300 (Sahara and lower) is give it a lift which helps out the clearance issues highlighted.
Absolutely amazing video. You really explain this so clearly! All four are very nice 4x4. I fancy a lc300 or grenadier. But they are so expensive here in the EU. Currently ride a 2014 hilux and will keep for the next 3 to 5 years! Keep this coming. Greetings from Belgium🇧🇪🇧🇪🇧🇪
Toyota 300 series GR sports is definitely my favourite amongs them, however the price is not cheap and to mode up an expensive rig is not cheap. Ineos having the best axels system (both solid), but the problem is it doesn't have good after market support like Toyota and Nissan do. Like lift kit, bumpers, skid plates etc.. It's clearly not the best to buy as of 2023. May be after 3-5 years and after market support as well as spare parts are more easier to get that would be the best time frame to start think about buying Ineos and that too if it's proven off roader.. In my humble opinion.
Great content Robert. Ive just upgrade from a 150 Prado with a factory rear locker, which was very hand at times , to a VX 300. The BTC looks very impressive, extra flex looks promising.
Another great video which must have been a huge amount of work preparing for this and then conducting it and then the post-production. Thanks also to those who loaned you their time and vehicles. I’m currently at Bathurst Bay near Cape Melville on Cape York in my L663 Defender and catching up with videos on my Starlink and solar/lithium systems. Just great to see how technology is making so much more possible.
I had a Defender and honestly was surprised by the independent suspension's off-road prowess. It definitely has downsides. Unfortunately the 300 Series is not available where I am, but we are waiting on a Grenadier, and my fiance might be doing a fleet deal, with Ineos. I love all of these!
@@RootBeerGMT I have driven the Grenadier on an off-road course, have witnessed a full inspection of the underside, under the hood etc. So I can honestly say they appeared to be engineered VERY well and I truly doubt they going to depreciate fast enough to make 2 years worth the wait. Scalpers are selling their pre-orders for profit, so be careful who you purchase from!
Despite having the shortest wheelbase (which you pointed out was a disadvantage in this case) and having the worst departure angle, the 300 cruised up and took the win! I always have any always will take a landcruiser over any other 4wd
I like the old Land Rover Discovery 2 with the ace system. It's pretty impressive the way it makes the sway bar stiffer before it even starts to lean but then off-road in low range the hydraulic effect essentially disappears making it like a disconnected sway bar. It's cool to remember they did that in 1999 and it actually worked great on and off road doing the exact opposite and aiding effect for both conditions
Steven looks like the kind of guy who would drive a Green 40 Shorty over the Parliament House while explaining how he uses Valvoline to pull up his trousers. HA HA haaa yeah I like Toyota's too but that's a nostalgia thing. Would have been good to see Milo show us all how its done. 🤣
@@L2SFBC I recon he would know where to get a good deal on Soft Shackles too , For some reason all I could think about was all the old John Laws radio adds from back in the 80's and 90's.
Robert another well constructed, balanced and educational review! I agree with the "prescribed lines" and some other constraints to reduce independent variables, focusing the test on the car not the driver. That said operator (driver) skill is part of the interaction between man and machine, will affect performance, and likely influence people's choice of car with associated technology (or lack of it). Vehicles like the Defender come with a built-in 'operator' or AI that drive the car for you to some extent. It is therefore interesting, and in some ways fairer, to allow a competent driver to exercise appropriate control of the car to compare results. One vehicle may have an advantage demonstrated under controlled conditions but I hope that future comparisons include just one set more where the drivers are totally free to control the car as they would in the real world to see what differences actually matter. This wouldn't detract from conclusions about which vehicle has better features, but rather add to what features matter.
Great demonstration and well explained. I have a GX Prado 150. No locker. It’s TC is ok but suggest after seeing that LC300, that Toyota have really worked hard on improving their TC system. Cheers
Toyota have always had good BTC. Except for the 79 Series, which is a corporate exercise in seeing how little they can spend on development and STILL people buy it.
Having a 2011 gxl Prado, the latest models with factory rear diff lock do not have as capable of a TC as the older models due to the fitment of the rear diff lock. Add this to the fact when the rear diff lock is engaged, factory tc is disengaged. There have been a few situations where a close friends newer model struggled with obstacles ( even when rear diff lock has been engaged) as he basically had an open diff in the front, where as I had very good front tc supplying more traction to the front diff. We have proven this on many older models versus newer models and it has turned out to be very true.
Unless you’re seriously into off-roading then I believe all the vehicles are more than suited. The secondary consideration is for the 9 months of the year when it’s a daily drive, and so creature comforts and how practical it is are also paramount.
something you didn't point out about solid axle vs independent is when a tyre climbs an obstacle on a solid axle clearance under the diff increases all the way across from one side to the other the biggest increase being close to the tyre on the obstacle reducing in a linear amount to the other side. ifs when one tyre climbs an obstacle the clearance under the suspension arms increases all the way to their attachment points. biggest increase at the tyre reducing in a linear amount to the pivot there may be a slight increase the rest of way across due to weight being lifted off the opposite side but clearance under the centre doesn't significantly increase until the suspension on the obstacle side is reaching full compression. basic explanation solid axle drives over rock, clears rock in centre of the vehicle. independent drives over rock, diff cradle crashes into rock in centre. ifs clearance needs to be a lot more to start with (like a third or half again) to be similar in the real world
The traction control on the grenadier works, it does need some more revs, but this can possibly be solved with a software update, allowing for less speed difference between wheels on the same axle, the hardware is present and does it's job.
Amazing analysis, well done! I bought recently a Mitsubishi Pajero 3.8, 2015, which type of suspension is it under? And how capable is off road compared to these vehicles? Thank you.
There are so many videos of Jeep rubicon's off-roading pulling all kinds of gear with big off road trailers and overlanding and rock crawling all at the same time. I feel like other countries just don't include them because they don't want the American thing to be the best one LOL I mean look at we made the Humvee in the early 80s and it is absolutely amazing drivetrain technology to this day. By the way I like this video don't get me wrong I love the explanation of the suspension at the start with the RC cars that was really really wise and helpful to some people who don't know
Pure offroad capability is not the prime criterion for a touring vehicle, or overlanding as the USA people like to call it. You want cargo space, payload, reliability, towing capability, and easy/refined long-distance driving. The Wrangler is below par in each of those criteria. It is only the best offroad, and it's not so much better than makes a difference. It's nothing to do with it being American. If I was looking at best short-range vehicles Wrangler would be #1 pick, along with Jimny, Tank300, shortie Defender etc.
@@L2SFBC that makes sense I guess I just feel like I never see it compare to anything as if people are scared to even compare it. I feel like they make it so simple and basic and it performed so well. I drive a disco 2 with no sway bars and even with more Flex the wheelbase is kind of narrow and the roof is really tall it's like you can build it up better and better just to be like a stock Jeep Rubicon I just don't want to own one because everybody and their mother has one over here you can drive down the road for 10 minutes and see 14 of them haha but in all honesty probably about one-third or half of the driver is at least in my Southwestern desert area actually take them off road
Interesting video! I have a Toyota (FJ Cruiser) myself, so I'm not baised towards Patrols; however, this was the first time I saw a LC outperforming a Patrol!
So for the purposes of this test in this video, the Toyota owner was right twice, it was superior, also noted that Grenadier and LC300 still had their tow bars attached not removed like the Nissan owner? Interesting since the LC300 has lest ground clearance and departure angles stock, but didn't feel the need to tweak every advantage and also used the lest amount of throttle yet the Y62 used the most throttle? Id add your analysis re solid axle vs IFS/or IRS bein equal in that stock setup may balance out pros and cons, but 2" lift or more solid axle is far superior off road, its easier to modify to maintain factory geometry if modified correctly an increasing solid axle pros even more where as IFS IRS increases weakness and unreliability especially to CVs, same re bigger rims and tires. fwiw. still good review and some great demonstration aids there though i thought the model car part was a bit gimicky and doesn't reflect reality in my view, but the others some of the best explanations of the 2 types of suspension and axles systems real off roaders care about and especially for new or beginners, thanks.
Great video!! Looking forward to part 2. I wonder though if the LC 300 Sport would have been even better offroading if it had adjustable suspension for more ground clearance. A bit odd they didn't include it on the most premium LC 300 yet its available on the Lexus LX and GX as well as Land Rover models.
The Grenadier traction control is just the normal on road ESC as mandated in many markets. Remember, the only reason it exists is because people (and one particularly rich guy😂) don’t trust the reliability of the “new” Defender’s electronic wizardry. It’s whole philosophy is to trust to the mechanical solution of the live axles and diff locks. The off-road switch is supposed to actually disable the ESC. Engaging the centre diff lock also disables ESC so you were effectively using on road mode in your first run. It’s a bit surprising it got up the hill at all.
No, that's not right. ESC is different to brake traction control (BTC). ESC is disabled in low range in the Grenadier, like it is in every 4x4. In high range I'm not 100% clear on the design, but it seems locking the C/D would densisitise it, and there's the offroad button. BTC can, and does work effectively with cross-axle lockers. We tested the Grenadier with and without as base model Grenadiers do not have the cross-axle lockers. More here ua-cam.com/video/_CqkDLo1owA/v-deo.html
@@L2SFBC A bit of TLA overload in the marketing terms over the years seems to have landed on ESC as the generic term for on-road traction control. In the vast majority of cases, this involves applying the brake to spinning wheels. I think you use BTC to refer to that same principle for off-road applications that are usually much cleverer and are often tailored to different terrains. I’m not sure marketing has let go of their trademarks like ATRAC and Terrain Response Response to adopt a generic acronym like BTC. Anyway, despite the on-road vs off-road focus, both ESC and BTC use the brakes to control wheel spin, right? As for the Grenadier, there is not a mention of BTC or any other off-road traction control system apart from “ESC Off-road Mode” when either the centre diff only is locked or when in off-road/wading modes. In each of those cases, the ESC Off indicator is lit as it is when you specifically deactivate ESC. Ineos warn that, when this indicator is lit, there is “reduced stability functionality”. So for your first run, as it looked like one wheel spinning on each axle, it would seem to be ESC on but out of its depth, or centre diff locked with the mysterious “reduced stability functionality”.
ESC is indeed the generic term for stability control, of which one component is brake traction control and another engine traction control. You could stretch an argument to say ESC is BTC, but in fact ESC is an umbrella term for a number of different traction-related programs of which BTC is one. The fact that INEOS do not specifically use the term doesn't mean that the term cannot be applied to their car. ESC does not use the brakes to control wheelspin, it uses them to control oversteer and understeer. BTC uses the brakes to control wheelspin. The "reduced stability function" refers to ESC being off/reduced, not BTC.
@@L2SFBC I agree, it’s pretty much just semantics. Understeer or oversteer are loss of traction and ESC applies the brakes selectively to correct it. It may use other sensors and it may reduce throttle or even increase it if we start adding some of the higher end stuff like drift mode under the ESC umbrella ( I haven’t heard of it taking over steering like lanekeep assist but I’m sure it’s only a matter of time….😩). BTC for off-road traction also uses other sensors and will also control throttle. In fact one of the commonly expressed frustrations of reviewers is when the BTC starts limiting throttle to protect drive train when they actually want some wheel spin. Tommy on TFL is a good example. However, my point is not splitting hairs on TLAs. I like the division of on vs off-road intention. My point is that the Grenadier does not appear to have an off-road BTC. Despite all the attention on this vehicle I’ve never seen any mention of this except in the Owners Manual in certain transmission settings where it states “ESC in Off-road Mode”. I guess there could be some secret traction control system and, if so, it would make sense that Ineos have never mentioned it - a large percentage of buyers would instantly cancel their order. And that’s because it would go against the fundamental ethos of the vehicle. If you can unearth some confirmation of it maybe better go to private messaging 😉. Meanwhile we have to assume that first Grenadier run had either the centre diff locked or the sterling efforts of the ESC (trying to correct over/understeer) got it up.
the 2009 model non facelifted old Nissan Patrol is pretty impressive!! despite of age. the toyota LC300 here is completely new generation automobile plus a GR variant,
Lockers on the defender. Whilst it is true that the computer ultimatly controls when the locker engages. If you have terrain response 2 you can set up a bespoke programe and tell the computer to lock the locker. Also dirrent terain respose settings will lock the lockers.
@L2SFBC Good point. I think I was coming at it from the point that you don't need to let the comp deside to lock. You can lock before entering an obsticle. Having said that, the comp is probably a better judge than I will be.😂👍
Honestly the Ineos and G Wagon are better than current Land Cruiser. LC300 have a great traction control system, but you just can’t beat solid axles + triple lockers. An LC80 or 105 with triple lockers is also better than a 200 or 300.
loving the freudian slips! To be honest, I know the Freelander 3 is going to be the best there on the initial trial as it's got the best electronics. so far, I's say Freelander 3, Y62, Lc300 then the Grenader...
I wish Toyota would put in as much effort into tuning the BTC of the 70 series as they did the 300 series. Can't wait for you to get your hands on the j250 series.
Amazing review, thank you. My 150 Prado has KDSS, next week I will install an air front locker, with the factory rear E locker, it will close to be unstoppable :)
All these vehicles will be absolutely great for Overlanding. If l was crossing Africa l would take either the old Defender, a Jeep Wrangler, or the Jimny because they are all tried and trusted. Plus you won't look like the rich foreigner on safari
Some really truly useful information explained so very concisely and in a way that is quite simply very easy to understand and soak in . . . . Well done mate 👍 i now really ubderstand the way the different types of axles behave differently and why they do what they do. That 300 has some nice traction texhniques! . . . . Shame about the driver 🤣😂😜
Great and fair comparison Robert! Shown with just facts and really excellent to see all those details side by side. What do you think how the Grenadier would perform in this company with an improved BTC? At least I feel there is some potential here.
@@L2SFBC can you verify which software version was installed in this tested Grenadier? The new release is 1946 which will currently rolled out for customer vehicles. Mine was built mid August and has 1940 installed, will get the update at Wednesday. There are a lot of improvements, but I don't have any confirmation if there is also a modification made for the BTC.
All L663s have a "centre diff" which can vary from open to locked. Later models have a rear-drive system with a clutch for the front, older ones have constant 4WD with a clutch to determine lock. From the driver's perspective it appears the same. More on this later.
For the true offroad capability I would look not only whether your side step touching the ground but for the construction of your drive line. Nissan TOD in the transfer case will not last as long as classic diff or part time in heavy conditions. The same goes for the automatic rear locker in the "defender".
Probably the best explanation of off road suspension I've ever seen. Well done, Robert. Thank you.
Thanks! More to say...
It does however not take account of systems used alongside independent suspension such as air suspension and electronic active roll control. These can help force down the lifted wheels and overcome some of the disadvantages of independent suspension systems, whilst keeping the benefits.
It’s great to see an unbiased side by side comparison. Looking forward to part 2.
thanks!
Great video, that 300 series is seriously impressive.
This is the lecture I needed to prove to my dad the differences in these types of suspension.
The time and effort you put into these is amazing , some of the best reviews on UA-cam, thank you, keep them comming
Glad you like them!
The examples with the model cars was excellent. Best breakdown I’ve seen to understand the differences in suspension.
Glad you enjoyed it!
Absolutely love that you guys have off-road LC300 content. They’re not allowing reviewers over here drive the GX550 at all. They’re just showing us features and not capability.
The GX isn’t the equivalent though
Very interesting video. Thanks to the algorithm of UA-cam, I discovered your channel. For me, the Defender and the LC300 are doing very well. For you guys in Australia, I think that the Patrol Warrior is one of the top off-roaders. Watching you from Madagascar 🇲🇬
i gotta say I'm very impressed by the defender throwing all the offroading rules out of the window, even if that means pushing a whole 4x4 on 2 wheels alone. I'm also very surprised on it being to pull it off with minimal drama. Really rewriting rules.
Love finding channels that enjoy off roading and showcasing locking differentials and traction control systems. Subscribed!
Welcome aboard!
This is got to be the best explanation of the differences of suspension, sway bars and types tractions controls. Thank you. Looking forward to the next videos
Glad you liked it!
This is one of the best off road car introduction video to me so far. Thank you for the efforts!
Tnx Robert great unbiased test. Looking forward for the second part. Love your work
Thanks for the video Robert. Unbiased and educational on every test. I learnt a lot. Good to see the new generations of 4wd's (and the old tech Grenadier still dominating ;) ). Excited to see Part 2.
hmm wouldn't say the Grenadier dominated...the standout in that test was the LC300. Made it look easy compared to rest.
Very good review thus far. 4 very good vehicles. For me, Patrol and Cruiser are tried and tested and will last ( Durable ). Land Rover, whilst good looking, comfortable and very capable, they are unfortunately unreliable. Simply not an option. The Grenadier has all the makings of a great vehicle. Just needs to prove itself to me over a period of a few years. Reliability, durability and serviceability. I hope it does. Like the concept.
Defender has been very reliable, you barely ever hear of them breaking down. I have one and have had ZERO problems over the first year 🤞
the first year?? I should not lmao
@@Outbackbogan how many years does it have to make it without issue before it qualifies as reliable?
@@jmax850, I have a D4 and I’ve had no major issues 8years and 240,000km so far. I would make a simple suggestion to these LR haters to spend 5 minutes of their time and search just really how reliable their Tojo’s really are.😊
There are several videos about how terrible they are reliability wise. Tfl had to give their defender back after a week because it was so bad. Andrew Saint Pierre White has recently shown and several videos how absolutely terrible they are and not to be relied on in the wilderness. They may be good for tests like this but I would never bet my family's safety on one in the middle of nowhere.
The best explanation on suspension logic I have ever had
thanks, please share!
And the winner is the Toyota LC300 gr sports, the Best of all, Toyota is best car manufacturer in whole world, the review it explained everything we need to know. Thanks dude.
Hands down the most educational 4x4 I have ever seen! Using the r/c for the presentation was a brilliant idea and explained all the new modern sistems perfectly. Keep up the good work mate!
Glad you enjoyed it!
Amazing comparison! I never knew the Land Rover and Nissan have some type of cross-linked suspension intended for articulation. Great information!
Hey Tink, thanks for that and for the narrow/wide shout-out, loved your take on it as we all learn together.
Excellent video mate, Love to see Tank 300 on this same course
You make great videos, Robert, honest and smart and informative. As a modern LR guy I frequently see journos making what I think is a mistake when testing the Defender: using Mud & Ruts mode when it's not needed or even a poor fit for the test. In this first test you were focused on wheel spin as a performance criteria. Well, the Mud & Ruts program deliberately permits more wheel spin than usual because that can help with clearing tyre tread or removing slop from the track when you are truly in muddy terrain. Most off-road driving in a Defender is best tackled in Comfort mode, using "S" mode on the transmission if you're in high range or switching to low range if warranted. The extra terrain response modes are for extreme circumstances - if you want absolutely minimum wheel spin at low speed (along with greatly damped throttle response) then engage rock crawl; to make noisy dramatic progress through muddy holes then grab mud & ruts; climbing sand dunes or beach exits you might want sand mode which minimises individual wheel spin, starts gently and then aggressively maintains momentum; and for surfaces where just keeping going in a straight line is the challenge then engage grass/gravel/snow for gentle acceleration, fast reactions to traction loss and an extra helping of stability control.
Seriously, next time you're testing a modern Land Rover off road please give it a go in Comfort mode first, with transmission in "S" mode if in high range.
Not quite - the standard mode is Normal/Road. Mud/Ruts actually increases the BTC intervention over normal, and Rock further again. In any case, it's a closed-loop system which increases braking on the spinning wheel regardless of the Terrain Response mode. All the S mode does is change the transmission shift points (Sport) and in any case those are modified by Terrain Response; earlier upshift in Grass/Gravel/Snow, later in Sand for example. Sand mode does *not* minimise wheelspin, it allows a greater slip angle than others because sand is loose. I have qualified as a Land Rover instructor :-)
Excellent reveiw. Very impressed with the explanations on suspension with the RC's. For me, it made things much easier to understand. No other reviewers out there use RC to help explain 4x4. Great job. Thanks 👍👍
Glad it was helpful!
Excellent comparative analysis (as usual)! Thank you!
I own Pajero, l200 and jimni and was aware about independent suspension and solid axle. However never really understood pros of solid axle. Now, thanks to you, i finally got it. Great demo on toy cars!!!
Very well explained!
I've had 3 LC, still got one, never put a spanner on them, having said that my, friend has had 2 nissan patrols, same thing, both great vehicles and can get them fixed almost anywhere in Aus and will go almost anywhere, that is reason enough to stick to one of those two, cheers good video
Really great video! I love the Australians off-roader, very tough and passionate. Greetings from Italy!
Glad you enjoyed it!
Superb way to explain to new offroaders like me......thankyou👍👍👍👍👍👍👍
Another wonderfully informative video from the great Robert Pepper! Nicely done and I learned things. Thanks. The newer E-KDSS system is a fine addition to off-road capability. Durability is not a parameter of your fine evaluation, but it's an important consideration to those that drive remote and solo (no other vehicles with you off-road). Although I do realize that IFS and IRS components are getting "tougher" on modern 4WDs and have better on-highway comfort and off-road clearance, I still avoid them on my personal vehicles on which I must rely as an off-road trainer and tour guide. On my off-road tours (and I see TONS of different vehicles on my adventure tours), IFS and IRS repairs in the field are 3:1 compared to solid axle vehicles. Perhaps that's just the "luck of the draw," but at that repair ratio, I suspect not. I dislike any type of vehicle repairs in the field, but especially suspension and axle repairs. Again Robert, I thank you for your most excellent videos. IMHO the best non-ego and truthful 4WD videos on UA-cam.
wow thanks Bob, appreciate that! I agree re robustness, and thank you for recognising that wasn't part of the evaluation on this occasion.
Great video, very informative and interesting.
I drove off road pretty much all my working life. New cars definitely got more comfortable and reliable over the years, but they also got more gadgets and complicated.
I found the "best" 4x4's......................are the ones that haven't got a few hundred critical sensors you can't possibly identity in the bush or possibly carry spares..........
My rule was "always to keep it simple"
Well said!
Bought a 2019
Toyota Landcruiser 2.8 D-4D Invincible
It was a nightmare from about 7K miles .... multiple problems going into limb mode when towing 2 ton trailer off road uphill resulted in numerous visit to dealers
3 exhaust filters 2 engines @ 28K miles I got rid of it when 2 nd replacement engine lost power from continuous limb mode when towing up hill.
In my experience there's good & bad in every modern vehicle, just hope you stay lucky with your
Grenadier.
My most reliable towing off road vehicle in last 10 years
PHEV Mitsubishi 4x4 , it's never went wrong in 100k miles 🤠
@@stevenhart9944Land cruiser Prado is almost identical vehicle chassis & running gear as the LC300 featured in this test 🙄
I'm quite surprised how unrefined the Traction Control is on the Ineos, looks to even be a step behind the Discovery 2 traction control that was launched in 1999. Probably a good thing it has twin lockers
It's smooth and eventually effective just takes a while. Not all Grenadiers have twin lockers, which is one reason we tested without.
Its definitely a few generations behind the Defender that's for sure and was surprised how good Toyota have got their TC calibration.
Land Rover and Toyota are the market leaders in this respect...as I said, it's a tough crowd!
Excellent review, I agree with the others, one of the best in the business. Well done, and thank you!
Дякую за відео!
Звісно знімайте ще!
Sorry, was writing this comment to another video but yeah, thanks for the video and waiting for more!
Top notch work yet again.
I understand this is off the shelf vehicles but to be honest the first thing you you with the LC300 (Sahara and lower) is give it a lift which helps out the clearance issues highlighted.
Absolutely amazing video. You really explain this so clearly!
All four are very nice 4x4. I fancy a lc300 or grenadier. But they are so expensive here in the EU.
Currently ride a 2014 hilux and will keep for the next 3 to 5 years!
Keep this coming.
Greetings from Belgium🇧🇪🇧🇪🇧🇪
Glad you enjoyed it!
Found this video very educational and enjoyable. The effort behind it is very obvious and greatly appreciated. Cheers!
Glad you enjoyed it!
Toyota 300 series GR sports is definitely my favourite amongs them, however the price is not cheap and to mode up an expensive rig is not cheap. Ineos having the best axels system (both solid), but the problem is it doesn't have good after market support like Toyota and Nissan do. Like lift kit, bumpers, skid plates etc.. It's clearly not the best to buy as of 2023. May be after 3-5 years and after market support as well as spare parts are more easier to get that would be the best time frame to start think about buying Ineos and that too if it's proven off roader.. In my humble opinion.
Great content Robert. Ive just upgrade from a 150 Prado with a factory rear locker, which was very hand at times , to a VX 300. The BTC looks very impressive, extra flex looks promising.
Unfortunately the VX doesn't have the eKDSS...
Amazing content Robert, well done! Entertaining and informative.
Glad you enjoyed it!
Toyotas are always the best 👌 they nailed it many years ago that's what helped build this country and they still doing it 👏 amen 🙏
Another great video which must have been a huge amount of work preparing for this and then conducting it and then the post-production. Thanks also to those who loaned you their time and vehicles. I’m currently at Bathurst Bay near Cape Melville on Cape York in my L663 Defender and catching up with videos on my Starlink and solar/lithium systems. Just great to see how technology is making so much more possible.
Much appreciated!
Fantastic explanation! Robert, Thank you
Glad it was helpful!
Brilliant... clear, concise and educational !
I had a Defender and honestly was surprised by the independent suspension's off-road prowess. It definitely has downsides. Unfortunately the 300 Series is not available where I am, but we are waiting on a Grenadier, and my fiance might be doing a fleet deal, with Ineos. I love all of these!
The Grenedier seems like a beast. Need to watch two years to pick up a used one.
@@RootBeerGMT I have driven the Grenadier on an off-road course, have witnessed a full inspection of the underside, under the hood etc. So I can honestly say they appeared to be engineered VERY well and I truly doubt they going to depreciate fast enough to make 2 years worth the wait.
Scalpers are selling their pre-orders for profit, so be careful who you purchase from!
Great explanations in this video. Also enjoyed the interview and comedy :)
Despite having the shortest wheelbase (which you pointed out was a disadvantage in this case) and having the worst departure angle, the 300 cruised up and took the win! I always have any always will take a landcruiser over any other 4wd
Thanks Rob. I always enjoy your videos. Legend!
Thank you!
Top quality content as always 🙌🙌💪💪💪
Amazing review one of the best I have seen. I owned a 2015 4Runner which is the same as a Lexus GX 460/ prado
Thank you!
I like the old Land Rover Discovery 2 with the ace system. It's pretty impressive the way it makes the sway bar stiffer before it even starts to lean but then off-road in low range the hydraulic effect essentially disappears making it like a disconnected sway bar. It's cool to remember they did that in 1999 and it actually worked great on and off road doing the exact opposite and aiding effect for both conditions
Steven looks like the kind of guy who would drive a Green 40 Shorty over the Parliament House while explaining how he uses Valvoline to pull up his trousers.
HA HA haaa yeah I like Toyota's too but that's a nostalgia thing. Would have been good to see Milo show us all how its done. 🤣
I didn't see that comment coming!
@@L2SFBC I recon he would know where to get a good deal on Soft Shackles too ,
For some reason all I could think about was all the old John Laws radio adds from back in the 80's and 90's.
Robert another well constructed, balanced and educational review!
I agree with the "prescribed lines" and some other constraints to reduce independent variables, focusing the test on the car not the driver.
That said operator (driver) skill is part of the interaction between man and machine, will affect performance, and likely influence people's choice of car with associated technology (or lack of it).
Vehicles like the Defender come with a built-in 'operator' or AI that drive the car for you to some extent. It is therefore interesting, and in some ways fairer, to allow a competent driver to exercise appropriate control of the car to compare results.
One vehicle may have an advantage demonstrated under controlled conditions but I hope that future comparisons include just one set more where the drivers are totally free to control the car as they would in the real world to see what differences actually matter.
This wouldn't detract from conclusions about which vehicle has better features, but rather add to what features matter.
Yes, fair points, and I may do something like that in the future, particularly if it's Jimny vs Wrangler vs Tank300.
I have a Prado with the KDSS and Torsen diffs front and rear, literally amazing.
All trucks were closer than I was expecting. Great side-by-side video and explanation. Cant wait until we get the Grenadier on USA trails!.
They're not trucks?
@@madrx2 Two different languages mate. English v American. (just tongue in cheek) @h2o_dug do you have a date for when you guys get them over there?
Great demonstration and well explained.
I have a GX Prado 150. No locker. It’s TC is ok but suggest after seeing that LC300, that Toyota have really worked hard on improving their TC system.
Cheers
Toyota have always had good BTC. Except for the 79 Series, which is a corporate exercise in seeing how little they can spend on development and STILL people buy it.
Having a 2011 gxl Prado, the latest models with factory rear diff lock do not have as capable of a TC as the older models due to the fitment of the rear diff lock. Add this to the fact when the rear diff lock is engaged, factory tc is disengaged. There have been a few situations where a close friends newer model struggled with obstacles ( even when rear diff lock has been engaged) as he basically had an open diff in the front, where as I had very good front tc supplying more traction to the front diff. We have proven this on many older models versus newer models and it has turned out to be very true.
Amazing videp, very thorough 👏
Unless you’re seriously into off-roading then I believe all the vehicles are more than suited. The secondary consideration is for the 9 months of the year when it’s a daily drive, and so creature comforts and how practical it is are also paramount.
Yep
something you didn't point out about solid axle vs independent is when a tyre climbs an obstacle on a solid axle clearance under the diff increases all the way across from one side to the other the biggest increase being close to the tyre on the obstacle reducing in a linear amount to the other side.
ifs when one tyre climbs an obstacle the clearance under the suspension arms increases all the way to their attachment points. biggest increase at the tyre reducing in a linear amount to the pivot there may be a slight increase the rest of way across due to weight being lifted off the opposite side but clearance under the centre doesn't significantly increase until the suspension on the obstacle side is reaching full compression.
basic explanation solid axle drives over rock, clears rock in centre of the vehicle.
independent drives over rock, diff cradle crashes into rock in centre.
ifs clearance needs to be a lot more to start with (like a third or half again) to be similar in the real world
Yes I could have made that clearer, fair point
Great video. Thanks for making it.
Glad you enjoyed it!
The traction control on the grenadier works, it does need some more revs, but this can possibly be solved with a software update, allowing for less speed difference between wheels on the same axle, the hardware is present and does it's job.
good review bobbo ! appreciate the time put in and well explained 👍
who's bobbo?
That ekdss got some serious articulation
Amazing analysis, well done! I bought recently a Mitsubishi Pajero 3.8, 2015, which type of suspension is it under? And how capable is off road compared to these vehicles? Thank you.
Independent front and rear, and it's not as good as those cars
Thank you, my next one will probably be a Land Cruiser as I currently live in the middle east
The best video describing how it work different suspension, Like and subscribe, with love from Ukraine!
Great video. The content is superb. You've earned a subscriber
Welcome aboard!
There are so many videos of Jeep rubicon's off-roading pulling all kinds of gear with big off road trailers and overlanding and rock crawling all at the same time. I feel like other countries just don't include them because they don't want the American thing to be the best one LOL I mean look at we made the Humvee in the early 80s and it is absolutely amazing drivetrain technology to this day.
By the way I like this video don't get me wrong I love the explanation of the suspension at the start with the RC cars that was really really wise and helpful to some people who don't know
Pure offroad capability is not the prime criterion for a touring vehicle, or overlanding as the USA people like to call it. You want cargo space, payload, reliability, towing capability, and easy/refined long-distance driving. The Wrangler is below par in each of those criteria. It is only the best offroad, and it's not so much better than makes a difference. It's nothing to do with it being American. If I was looking at best short-range vehicles Wrangler would be #1 pick, along with Jimny, Tank300, shortie Defender etc.
@@L2SFBC that makes sense I guess I just feel like I never see it compare to anything as if people are scared to even compare it. I feel like they make it so simple and basic and it performed so well. I drive a disco 2 with no sway bars and even with more Flex the wheelbase is kind of narrow and the roof is really tall it's like you can build it up better and better just to be like a stock Jeep Rubicon I just don't want to own one because everybody and their mother has one over here you can drive down the road for 10 minutes and see 14 of them haha but in all honesty probably about one-third or half of the driver is at least in my Southwestern desert area actually take them off road
Interesting video! I have a Toyota (FJ Cruiser) myself, so I'm not baised towards Patrols; however, this was the first time I saw a LC outperforming a Patrol!
Don't watch the next ones then :-)
@@L2SFBCoh so the patrol will rise? Sad to my lc300 vxr
So for the purposes of this test in this video, the Toyota owner was right twice, it was superior, also noted that Grenadier and LC300 still had their tow bars attached not removed like the Nissan owner?
Interesting since the LC300 has lest ground clearance and departure angles stock, but didn't feel the need to tweak every advantage and also used the lest amount of throttle yet the Y62 used the most throttle?
Id add your analysis re solid axle vs IFS/or IRS bein equal in that stock setup may balance out pros and cons, but 2" lift or more solid axle is far superior off road, its easier to modify to maintain factory geometry if modified correctly an increasing solid axle pros even more where as IFS IRS increases weakness and unreliability especially to CVs, same re bigger rims and tires. fwiw. still good review and some great demonstration aids there though i thought the model car part was a bit gimicky and doesn't reflect reality in my view, but the others some of the best explanations of the 2 types of suspension and axles systems real off roaders care about and especially for new or beginners, thanks.
The towbars made no difference. This is Part 1...wait for the others. Yes fair point re lifts.
Great video!! Looking forward to part 2. I wonder though if the LC 300 Sport would have been even better offroading if it had adjustable suspension for more ground clearance. A bit odd they didn't include it on the most premium LC 300 yet its available on the Lexus LX and GX as well as Land Rover models.
The luxury Sahara zx trim comes with adjustable air suspension
@@Jeseryhesery88 no way really?? I've never seen a video of an LC 300's height adjustable suspension.
The Grenadier traction control is just the normal on road ESC as mandated in many markets. Remember, the only reason it exists is because people (and one particularly rich guy😂) don’t trust the reliability of the “new” Defender’s electronic wizardry. It’s whole philosophy is to trust to the mechanical solution of the live axles and diff locks. The off-road switch is supposed to actually disable the ESC. Engaging the centre diff lock also disables ESC so you were effectively using on road mode in your first run. It’s a bit surprising it got up the hill at all.
No, that's not right. ESC is different to brake traction control (BTC). ESC is disabled in low range in the Grenadier, like it is in every 4x4. In high range I'm not 100% clear on the design, but it seems locking the C/D would densisitise it, and there's the offroad button. BTC can, and does work effectively with cross-axle lockers. We tested the Grenadier with and without as base model Grenadiers do not have the cross-axle lockers. More here ua-cam.com/video/_CqkDLo1owA/v-deo.html
@@L2SFBC A bit of TLA overload in the marketing terms over the years seems to have landed on ESC as the generic term for on-road traction control. In the vast majority of cases, this involves applying the brake to spinning wheels. I think you use BTC to refer to that same principle for off-road applications that are usually much cleverer and are often tailored to different terrains. I’m not sure marketing has let go of their trademarks like ATRAC and Terrain Response Response to adopt a generic acronym like BTC. Anyway, despite the on-road vs off-road focus, both ESC and BTC use the brakes to control wheel spin, right?
As for the Grenadier, there is not a mention of BTC or any other off-road traction control system apart from “ESC Off-road Mode” when either the centre diff only is locked or when in off-road/wading modes. In each of those cases, the ESC Off indicator is lit as it is when you specifically deactivate ESC. Ineos warn that, when this indicator is lit, there is “reduced stability functionality”. So for your first run, as it looked like one wheel spinning on each axle, it would seem to be ESC on but out of its depth, or centre diff locked with the mysterious “reduced stability functionality”.
ESC is indeed the generic term for stability control, of which one component is brake traction control and another engine traction control. You could stretch an argument to say ESC is BTC, but in fact ESC is an umbrella term for a number of different traction-related programs of which BTC is one. The fact that INEOS do not specifically use the term doesn't mean that the term cannot be applied to their car. ESC does not use the brakes to control wheelspin, it uses them to control oversteer and understeer. BTC uses the brakes to control wheelspin. The "reduced stability function" refers to ESC being off/reduced, not BTC.
@@L2SFBC I agree, it’s pretty much just semantics. Understeer or oversteer are loss of traction and ESC applies the brakes selectively to correct it. It may use other sensors and it may reduce throttle or even increase it if we start adding some of the higher end stuff like drift mode under the ESC umbrella ( I haven’t heard of it taking over steering like lanekeep assist but I’m sure it’s only a matter of time….😩).
BTC for off-road traction also uses other sensors and will also control throttle. In fact one of the commonly expressed frustrations of reviewers is when the BTC starts limiting throttle to protect drive train when they actually want some wheel spin. Tommy on TFL is a good example.
However, my point is not splitting hairs on TLAs. I like the division of on vs off-road intention. My point is that the Grenadier does not appear to have an off-road BTC. Despite all the attention on this vehicle I’ve never seen any mention of this except in the Owners Manual in certain transmission settings where it states “ESC in Off-road Mode”.
I guess there could be some secret traction control system and, if so, it would make sense that Ineos have never mentioned it - a large percentage of buyers would instantly cancel their order. And that’s because it would go against the fundamental ethos of the vehicle. If you can unearth some confirmation of it maybe better go to private messaging 😉. Meanwhile we have to assume that first Grenadier run had either the centre diff locked or the sterling efforts of the ESC (trying to correct over/understeer) got it up.
Отличная информация!
the 2009 model non facelifted old Nissan Patrol is pretty impressive!! despite of age. the toyota LC300 here is completely new generation automobile plus a GR variant,
11:41 my son likes Jeep’s sway bar disconnect system & Ram 2500 Power Wagon’ smart bar.
Lockers on the defender. Whilst it is true that the computer ultimatly controls when the locker engages. If you have terrain response 2 you can set up a bespoke programe and tell the computer to lock the locker. Also dirrent terain respose settings will lock the lockers.
It will...but I'm not aware of a way NOT to use it which was what was needed to evaluate it without.
@L2SFBC Good point. I think I was coming at it from the point that you don't need to let the comp deside to lock. You can lock before entering an obsticle. Having said that, the comp is probably a better judge than I will be.😂👍
Muchas gracias por el video. Buena comparativa.
Me quedo con el Toyota 300.
Saludos.
Thank you, i learned a lot 🙏
You're welcome!
Niceeee.... Landrover Grenadier I like it🤣🤣🤣🤣
Nothing can really match a Toyota Landcruiser... Not even other Toyota's... The Landcruiser is just built differently 💪🏾
Honestly the Ineos and G Wagon are better than current Land Cruiser. LC300 have a great traction control system, but you just can’t beat solid axles + triple lockers. An LC80 or 105 with triple lockers is also better than a 200 or 300.
Please include scorpio n in this type of offroad videos 📹
Fantastic video, learned a lot
Glad it was helpful!
loving the freudian slips! To be honest, I know the Freelander 3 is going to be the best there on the initial trial as it's got the best electronics. so far, I's say Freelander 3, Y62, Lc300 then the Grenader...
Lolol never heard it called that!
I wish Toyota would put in as much effort into tuning the BTC of the 70 series as they did the 300 series. Can't wait for you to get your hands on the j250 series.
The Toyota traction control and KDSS were impressive!
Sure are!
Amazing review, thank you.
My 150 Prado has KDSS, next week I will install an air front locker, with the factory rear E locker, it will close to be unstoppable :)
Glad I could help
Great review! Jeep Rubicon would be interesting in this comparison.
See pinned comment
Very good video
All these vehicles will be absolutely great for Overlanding. If l was crossing Africa l would take either the old Defender, a Jeep Wrangler, or the Jimny because they are all tried and trusted.
Plus you won't look like the rich foreigner on safari
Some really truly useful information explained so very concisely and in a way that is quite simply very easy to understand and soak in . . . . Well done mate 👍 i now really ubderstand the way the different types of axles behave differently and why they do what they do.
That 300 has some nice traction texhniques! . . . . Shame about the driver 🤣😂😜
You're very welcome! Please share!
@@L2SFBC shared already! 👍
Very good vid👍👍
Very good presentation
Glad you liked it
Soooo.. LC300 is a beast. Got it
LC300 did better than I thought, but imagine a Y62 with $140k Inc fruit, now that would be a weapon 💯
So I guess the winner here moves on to face the jeep wrangler in the championship of the planet?
Can’t wait for that episode
:)
Love it! Maybe ..
Good idea. But please take a TJ….
Gonna have to get yourself a Traxxas UDR to demonstrate the IFS/stick rear. Strictly for demonstration, of course ;)
Would be nice but not cost-effective for me to buy one...although I did get the other model just for making videos, I've driven it once!
Great and fair comparison Robert! Shown with just facts and really excellent to see all those details side by side.
What do you think how the Grenadier would perform in this company with an improved BTC? At least I feel there is some potential here.
Better BTC is definitely the single biggest improvement area for the Grenadier! Employ some Toyota engineers :-)
@@L2SFBC thanks for your opinion, this is exactly what came into my mind when watching your video!
@@L2SFBC can you verify which software version was installed in this tested Grenadier? The new release is 1946 which will currently rolled out for customer vehicles. Mine was built mid August and has 1940 installed, will get the update at Wednesday.
There are a lot of improvements, but I don't have any confirmation if there is also a modification made for the BTC.
It would be very interesting to know the crawl ratio of each vehicle.
nexr video...
Love the videos
Great video! Please clarify though if the Defender had the optional centre difflock or not?
All L663s have a "centre diff" which can vary from open to locked. Later models have a rear-drive system with a clutch for the front, older ones have constant 4WD with a clutch to determine lock. From the driver's perspective it appears the same. More on this later.
@@L2SFBC oh sorry, I meant to ask if it had the optional REAR difflock.
For the true offroad capability I would look not only whether your side step touching the ground but for the construction of your drive line. Nissan TOD in the transfer case will not last as long as classic diff or part time in heavy conditions. The same goes for the automatic rear locker in the "defender".