Ineos Grenadier Trialmaster review. How does it work as a farm car?
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- Опубліковано 28 тра 2023
- The Ineos Grenadier has been created to replace the original Land Rover Defender that went out of production in 2015. What I want to know is how would it cope with being my only farm car?
I have watched a fair number of Grenadier reviews by this point. Your experience, objectivity, and honesty are a refreshing change -- Thank you Harry !
Thanks. Whenever I review a car my first question is would I buy one, or recommend one to a friend. Hence my confusion on the Grenadier!
@@harrysfarmvids So the fact you are a consultant to Jaguar Landrover plays no part in your reviews?
@@DavesIneosGrenadier he isn't... he left that job years ago. He's also been really rather critical of the New Defender.
@@DavesIneosGrenadier nah, obvs no bias whatsoever…
@@richardharrold9736 don’t be ridiculous … every video scans like a JLR advert (fair to be that way because as a RR owner they are lovely) but be less obvious
The “Charger for some reason” under the back seat is actually a dual battery management system. It will protect your starting battery if running a fridge etc while camping. Quite good to be a factory option.
Yep and it’s accessible. It’s a smart idea along with the pre wiring
This world used to be a place to learn to suffer, but that has to change. Make this world heaven!
@@whiterabbit5600 true that
Seems like a waste of space and seat compromise for most owners who don't run a fridge etc. Should be an option.
As you can't fold the seats flat, you can't camp in it anyway !!
Fridges also have voltage cutoffs, and anyone serious about camping would fot a lithium leisure battery because lead acid and agm aren't suitable for continuous low current discharge. It kills them
@@whiterabbit5600 U wot
A few viewers have pointed me here, so if I can offer a couple of clarifications. I also found the cross-axle lockers slow to disengage - INEOS tell me that they actually disengage quickly, but the indicator light only goes out when there is a speed difference on left and right wheels. Hence you need to turn to get the light to go off. This is far from ideal, but not impossible to live with. Also, I would not recommend driving across your field with the cross-axle lockers engaged even when muddy. The reason is that you'll get huge understeer and therefore drag, which will increase the chances of a bogging. Instead, I'd suggest simply relying on the Grenadier's brake traction control which does an effective job in such conditions, and does not impede turning ability.
70 grand....the reality is that there isn't going to be much crossover between the people who want this kind of car and the people who can afford this kind of car.
Agreed only rich areas will have this in the US
I thought exactly the same, although I have heard the case made that commercial buyers will view this as having a longer service life and therefore be cost-effective in the long term. But making a Defender look reasonably priced is quite a trick to pull!
Well, I take a step back and ask who exactly would *Want* a car like this? As a farm vehicle, its too expensive, and as a luxury 4x4 it fails there too. I don't know what's going on, but either way its bloody expensive for what it is.
I completely agree, but the reality of manufacture in 2023 is that you simply can't make a utility vehicle at the price most of it's potential customers can afford
The commercial is 50 grand.
Watching the steering portions of the video reminded me of my Series 3, which I am very much used to, but it's 50 years old! And doesn't cost nearly as much!
EXACTLY - it doesn't do anything a slightly modfied 110 couldn't do but it wouldn't stack up just on price. If I wound the asking price of one of these ugly boxes into a classic rangey/ 110 or 'Cruiser - they'd be FAR superior.
I was driving a Mitsubishi around Oman a couple of months ago and I didn't see many Land Rovers, I asked why there were so few Defenders and Discoverys in that part of Arabia and answer was quite simple, RELIABILITY! If you are driving in the Arabian Desert everyday you can't risk suffering an unfixable electrical problem.
Yup, no reason not to go Japanese in places like that or the Australian outback or the Continent of Africa. These places demand reliability.
Thats not quite fair. 90% of all Land Rovers ever built are still on the road today.
The other 10% made it home :P
(Sorry, I had to)
Glad I don’t live in the desert 😂
@@nothingtoseaheardammit The thing about that is you can buy all of the parts from the chassis up to make a new one so its simple to keep them going apart from a Willys Jeep there are not many cars/trucks that you can do that with.
Notice there wasn't many BMWs being driven in the desert either?
Awesome as always.Thanks for sharing and taking us along
I simply loved your review! You were straight forward, candid, and honest. It's difficult to find car reviewers who aren't simply promoting manufacturers. I just subscribed.
This review is as I feared, we had been thinking of this one for the town/country car and the crew cab Quartermaster for the estate work as that will live offroad most of the time. We are going with the Defender for town and country and we'll run the Quartermaster for a few years to see how it stands up to working for a living. Good review and opened our eyes to a few areas we had thought they had covered, so opened our eyes to a few issues we could not live with.
I truly wish Grenadier all the best in making this a long-term success. The world deserves a car like this now that the Defender has become what it is - hopefully there is enough market for it.
I’d buy it if it started at about $58,000 add the lockers and a tow package and it came in right at about $63,000 USD I’d be a buyer all day long but an entry point of $70,000 without the tow package and lockers is nuts.
I'd personally hoped that the world deserved better then a 70k "work horse" pumping out 19mpg. Luckily it does and we've had the Hilux for years costing half the price and performing far better in the intended role
I cannot drive past a 2023 Defender without thinking (unlike its predecessor): are you a Hairdresser, a "Surrey Mummy", a Metrosexual... If Grenadier get this right (never mind the French factory), the farming, Equine and authentic community will follow.
@@danielw5850 I’ve got one, and I’m a builder, use it as a van, seat covers, no high end leather/carpets etc . all tools and crap just fit in back, and sometimes 400kilos or more of bags of cement etc, you hardly notice the weight. Then at wk ends it’s near Range Rover levels for comfort for journeys. There’s nothing out there like it. (And never had problem with it in 3 years)
we dont need old tech on new cars do we?. i think any of us could kinda do that tho. its esentiually a budget option to those landrovers etc but priced close tho their ranges
I’m really glad they are building this. I hope more companies do something similar but with sports cars. Give me a v6/8, RWD, 6-speed sports car with limited tech.
Saw one yesterday-up close-very impressed.
Definitely a niche vehicle, I definitely appreciate its simplicity and the notion that I won't need a doctorate of electrical engineering to keep the thing going for 20 years. I can't say the same about the new Landies. Don't get me wrong I quite like the new defender. But I do appreciate the simplicity of this car, and the accesorizing is quite appealing. I will definitely concede by the looks of it, it won't be great on road.
Edit: From a Canadians perspective btw this is very exciting since the original defender was never sold in Canada. And to basically be able to buy a "defender" here is a neat notion.
This literally woul dbe great at 35k
yes agree it's expensive for such a basic car with old tech@@PazLeBon
Towed a NATO Sankey ex-army trailer (around 1 tonne) with my Discovery 3 from Swindon to Bangor (Wales) and got 27mpg. Without towing, I got 32mpg. This seems way to expensive for what it is imo. We've had our D3 for 13 years now (well maintained). It's often off road on the farm and just works. One thing we like is when the rear seats fold, the load space is completely flat. Useful when transporting water troughs (and fridges) etc.
I'm at 16 years with my Disco 3. Can't bare to get rid of it . Many other vehicles in the stable come and go , but this is my love . Yes , parts wear out , but it's concept was near perfect and style unique . Don't like the spare wheel carrier design whatsoever though . Replacement for this will be LandCruiser 300 ....... yes I'm in Oz ;-)
You make no sense.
Go compare your D3 to a new Defender.
That's astonishing fuel economy. I thought they were gas guzzling tragics, but I was completely wrong.
Same here. D3 does it all. I even prefer it to the D4.
@@idanceforpennies281 Every couple of years I clean the sensors like MAP etc. Keeps the economy good. Oil changes are a must. I do mine annually with an Ester based synthetic.
Thanks for taking the Time Harry !!
Now we know what its got or Not as the case maybe
Excellent accurate review Harry 👍
The project is admirable but the startup costs are eye watering. I was expecting a better first attempt. I hope they survive long enough to become a success.
Are you for real?
One for the Arabs, other oligarchs like Radcliffe , etc.
@@andrewpreston4127Have you seen the price of cars recently?
Ultra rich backer can waste cash as he wishes I guess.
Well said Paul M. An intelligent non destructive comment. The rest of you should be ashamed of yourselves…attempting to bring down an honest attempt to create something great before it’s had a chance. Dangle your sorry heads in shame!
Harry you have saved me 60k
I was going to get one to replace our discovery 4
get a defender basically an amazing disco
Wouldn't touch one to replace a D4. I would get bored of that engine, 22mpg, woolly steering, only 5 seats, live axles/springs, no footwell space VERY quickly. The car it's trying to emulate was obsolete 40yrs ago. I know what I would prefer drive to Scotland or France in!
Mmm, interesting review as always, thanks Harry, keep well.
Love the external mounting points and sockets. I'd weld up all sorts of brackets to mount my projects and experiments to the vehicle
The fact it's more expensive than the "posh" new Defender is a big miss. The stripped out, rugged version should be way less
@@toomuchjam like what exactly?
@@toomuchjam I wonder why…
Trouble is it won’t be way less - 15 grand maybe… all the costs of development and kit to make it compliant with all the rules costs money
I went back and watched the Defender video to see how it handled it. The first thing i noticed is that @Harry'sfarmvideo stopped and picked a terrain response option and then set up the hill. He chose mud and ruts that lock the center and rear diffs. Most people would have chosen grass, gravel and snow because you are on grass. I found that interesting because to me he knew that you need the diffs to be locked right away to make the hill. Then he proceeded to go up the hill. The Grenadier locking front and rear diffs require to he low range. He has indicated the diff did not work which means he was in the high range attempting the hill with open diff. How is that a fair comparison. Also it shows the Grenadier was able to climb the hill in high range. Full discloure, I own the new defender and have a deposit to purchase the Grenadier.
Great spot and a good point!
You don't need to be in low range to select terrain response modes in the new defender. The only one that needs low range is rock crawl, all the others work in high and low range. Nor will it lock the diffs permanently in mud and ruts. It will optimise the traction control and diff locking strategy for the terrain though, so will be constantly adjusting the amount of locking torque across the diffs.
Suggest you get to a Land Rover Experience centre who will tell you all about your Defender, as the other poster has said you dont need to be in low range for Mud n Ruts.
Mud and Ruts allows for more wheel slip than grass gravel snow, because it has a catherine wheel effect of flinging mud off the tyre tread. GGS has relatively strong traction control effect once the initial dampened throttle in that mode is overcome
@jamesmeadows you are correct, my bad. I tend use mud and ruts and rock crawl in low range. Even the LR manual says use mud in low range. I made assumption that you needed to be in low. You know what they say about assuming.
@seany8787 you are correct, I don't need to be in low range. I just use low range for mud and ruts. I assumed and was proven wrong. You do have a great point that you need a class to best understand the terrain systems. You just can't lock and unlock the diffs when needed. They are always on. Makes you think about Rohny Dahl defender review where he couldn't figure it out.
They had an opportunity to fix what was always wrong with the 110. And left all the bad Parts and added a few.
At 45 -50k us these would sell like hot cakes but at 79k us it’s ridiculous.
It's just for the very rich......
Agreed
In Finland you can double the price because of it's emissions... Must not be the only contry either lol
79K US is cheap. For such a car.
@@rkan2 It's already a dinosaur & by 2030 it will be extinct......😁
I know at least 5 people that have ordered Grenadier, all as fashion accessories. I don’t think they will have them very long…….
One of the things that fans of the old Defender dislike about the new one is all the electronics and stuff, so criticising the Grenadier for being "old school" and having live axles, manual diff locks and reciprocating ball steering is kind of missing the point. The Grenadier wasn't designed to be yet another modern SUV family car, it's intended to ba a very modifiable off roader or work vehicle capable of being used for expeditions into remote areas. You only have to watch any of the Australian off road channels to hear stories of New Defenders breaking and failing out in the outback, and the inability to cobble together a "bush mechanics" fix to get them back to civilization because of all their complicated mod cons..At the end of the day it's a case of horses for courses, after all the type of people who this is aimed at don't even mind having to stop an engage manual front hubs.
‘Recirculating Ball’ ‘Roller Ball’ was a movie with James Cann in the 70’s Harry 😂
It's a colloquialism
Thanks for the review. Very enlightening compared to others I have seen and read. I reserved a Grenadier on day one but cancelled it due to lack of information whenever I asked a question. I’ll wait until the MK2 is brought out (if there ever will be one?) and re evaluate my choice..
Good to see a review that is not so biased on the hype of the "old schoold Defender", thanks for the objectivity. Let's hope the Ineos have a very long life, the more options and competitors, the better.
Feels like it has potential but needs a version 2 to address some glaring issues, especially the weight. It's half a tonne too heavy
I imagine it would be if it was a normal monocoque like the New Defender but then it would lose its raison d’etre
My short wheel base original Defender was 2 tonne on a heavier replacement galvanised chassis. It had no frills. Great bit of kit except crap axles that broke half shaft and differentials off road when pushed hard. Gearboxes were a weak point and transfer boxes as well. If all of those issues could have been beefed up, you would have had the perfect utility vehicle. That's the direction the Grenadier should have taken not this overweight hippo that is neither one thing or another. Think back to how great the Hilux was for reliability.
Well, you've hit the intractable problem area. Its a steel frame chassis with a steel body car. If you were to try and make it lighter, you basically need a completely new car. You can't "modify" weight out of a basic design.
Wait until they bring out the electric version!
@@marshallh9 that'll be an easy 3500kg with no payload...
Hellfire, someone who hasn't been a Lemming like all the other Motoring Journalists felt the need to imitate!
Thank you Harry.
Good review. I was very tempted to get one, but I'm now not so keen.
It's a shame it has to come down to the inevitable mud slinging (pun intended).
Harry has unwittingly fanned the flames between the various camps by doing a direct 'buy this not that' comparison rather than a straight up pro's / con's review on the Grenadier. It may have been a bit clumsy but the criticism he's then had in the comments has understandably made him take an even more entrenched position, no one winning so far....
If we step back -
A huge well done is due to the Ineos team (and their families) who have no doubt been giving blood sweat and tears in recent months to get it over the line, how any new entrant can bring a new car to market today is unbelievable.
Well done to Land Rover for successfully pulling off mass market appeal, refinement and capability in the new Defender. The Grenadier was never going to come close on refinement, if it had then Land Rover would have somewhat squandered their 75 year head start...
Unfortunately LR had to leave some old Defender lovers behind, but Ineos have been able to bring this group some alternative which should hopefully become even more accessible over time as the Grenadiers trickle into the second hand market.
If Ineos succeed, we all win - more choice, more competition, more variety on the roads, maybe other aspiring manufacturers are given the confidence to start new firms and bring us yet more options.
I hope the new Grenadier owners are enjoying their cars and credit to them for taking the early adopter risks which bring us something new. I can't wait to see the builds they come up with as the Grenadier starts to get modified for camping, overlanding, rock crawling etc...
If Ineos can get a few thousand of these out on the roads in the next year, it will be a lot more interesting for us all than another few thousand Toyotas, Land Rovers or whatever...
I hope we don't have to endure too many "Old Defender vs New Defender Vs Grenadier vs G Wagon vs Jimny vs Unimog vs Iveco vs Troopy" tug of war in a muddy field comparison videos and the influencers in the industry can use their imagination to help build the marques and their enthusiasts up for the benefit of us all.
edit - on reflection that tug of war video does sound quite good...
Well said - far more balanced a view than mr M sadly
its either in competion with these other marks in this niche and a direct compariosn is valid or it has to be at a tottaly different price point, i.e sub 50k
@@PazLeBon so which product is a direct direct comparison pls
This car will always remind me of Brexit and how the British public were asked to leave the EU for the good of British manufacturing by people like Jim Ratcliffe, who then promply left the UK to manufacture in the EU. Thanks Jim.
Hypocrisy comes to mind!
Such nonsense. The decision was -- as Harry put it quite clearly and impartially -- because Mercedes had just vacated a fully functioning plant in France, which was far easier and cheaper for Ineos to slot their own production line into, than building their own bespoke plant in Wales.
@@turlstreet the point is - there is always going to be a better option than manufacturing in the UK, especially now we have left the EU.
@@the-real-bert oh noooo you can't get cheap ass polish labour anymore and have to pay real wages now nooo!!
@@turlstreet 🤦♂
I've seen quite a few reviews of the Ineos Grenadier, but yours stands out. Your experience, impartiality, and genuine honesty make it a breath of fresh air. Thank you, Harry, for providing such valuable insights and giving us a true perspective on how the Grenadier performs as a farm car. Your expertise shines through in every review. Keep up the fantastic work! 👏🚜🔍
Thus speaks a citizen of Arslikhan. 😂
N1 Commercial classification means you can drive it on a normal car driving license because it has less than 3.5 tons gross vehicle weight. This vehicle meets that requirement for the DVLA but because it is so heavy unladen, the carrying capacity is limited to at best 800kgs. This means that the so-called ‘certified commercial’ versions, which are the van and utility five seater, just do not qualify as commercial vehicles as far as HMRC/VAT are concerned. Which kills it stone dead as far as many businesses are concerned. For the top two car versions, which are hardly more expensive and have the rear sides in glass rather than steel panels, they avoid the lower speed limits of the panel versions but they are all about or above the price of the far superior Land Rover Defender 110 cars. Around the £70k mark with no tax concessions for business users even on what are falsely described as ‘certified commercial vehicles’ [according to the Inios Grenadier web site]. This is very misleading of Ineos and there will already be some angry commercial customers because of this. They might as well have bought the top Trial and Fieldmaster versions or a fully glazed high spec Defender110 for very similar money.
I was wondering about the tax treatment, thanks for the clarification.
Yup, huge issue and massive oversight.
Maybe they’ll make an LWB 4.6t version. Can’t see how on Earth they could shave 500kg off it.
I can’t help but think it could have had a 2.0 4 pot diesel and a manual box with ~200bhp. Save weight, more space for the exhaust manifold and much lower cost.
Christ, I think you’re right on labelling as a commercial, no doubt there will be some angry customers. And as you say, what a pointless version, all the drawbacks with none of the tax benefits .
The 2 seater van doesn't need the higher weight capacity to qualify as commercial. % of cargo area vs seating area means it qualifies, same as the current Defender & Disco 2 seater vans do, which I 'think' both carry less weight than the Grenadier.
@@baronvonteuchter1412
That sounds like a Ford Ranger or Amarok pickup. In their high spec four cylinder twin turbo 210hp Wildtrak versions, there is a saving of some £23,000 compared to Grenadier. £20k if choosing the top Platinum spec with V6 diesel, full time 4wd and full leather, ventilated and heated power seats, the 12.3” dash plus the superb infotainment system with portrait screen, B&O sound system etc etc. Over £10k of that saving is due to the VAT being reclaimed on the pickup but not allowed on any Grenadier model. The pickups are silly expensive in their own right but at a £20k saving for a better drive, come on! I’ve got tractors and quad bikes for the really technically challenging ground that can’t be driven around by the very capable pickups. Given a choice at the same £70k approximate purchase price, I would buy a Defender 110 rather than the Grenadier. It is only because the Grenadier was claimed to be a “certified commercial vehicle”, which is what I want, a work truck, that I risked ordering a Grenadier. Luckily they will return my £2500 deposit.
A couple of minor points that he should know before doing a review, as he is extremely experienced and knowledgeable about vehicles. He wants rack & pinion steering but this vehicle has a live beam front axle. So it would have to change to IFS. You can lock the diffs on any slippery surface, such as grass, but not needed in this case. He has the vehicle in high range and you would never lock the diffs in high range on any vehicle, you would only do it in low range, it isn't possible on this to lock front or rear diffs unless in low locked centre. This feature reduces the number of morons using it. It looks like he doesn't have the centre diff locked at all when going up the slope, however I can't tell 100%. Either way it made it fairly easily except he backed off the throttle, for some reason, near the top. Had he engaged centre diff low locked it would have walked up there easily. Jabbing away at the roof buttons just made him look like a fool, which he definitely is not!
Well noted. The fact that he does not know the basics of difflock makes his view of off-road ability irrelevant.
@iainbaker1439 I have driven one off road and on road and we must have been in different vehicles. Lambo seating position is low with legs almost straight out. In this you crank the seat up high and close and it is more like sitting in a chair. Steering has a line on top of the steering wheel and also an electronic display of where the wheels are however I didn't need either. Having owned utes/pickups they are great but useless if you want a station wagon. Possibly check out a real offroad review ua-cam.com/video/KTgupbbRfog/v-deo.html instead of this bullshit review.
I lock the rear diff on my Ranger without being in low range all the time. Half the time I don't even bother putting it in 4Hi, just leave it in rwd.
I understand that the systems probably work different on different cars. I'm just saying needing to lock the center before front or rear is not universal. Though I don't think you'd ever want to lock the front without also locking center and rear in any car.
@@rightwingsafetysquad9872 Not sure which model Ranger you have but I thought their diff-lock automatically cut out above about 30kmh. Maybe that is just on the newer versions with e-locker. I could see in your case it would really help as the Ranger is only a rear wheel drive as standard (not a negative) however the Grenadier is constant 4wd. So escalation for difficult terrain could be, just 4wd high nothing locked, 4wd high centre locked, 4wd low nothing locked, 4wd low centre locked, rear locked , front locked.
Lots of options. You can drive in 4wd low up to 70kmh, unlocked on hard surfaces and locked on loose. Or locked on hard surfaces if you have excess money.
@@DavesIneosGrenadier I have a 2019. It will not allow engaging the locking diff over a certain speed, but I'm not sure that it will unlock itself if you exceed that speed after locking it.
Regardless, you should be able to lock the diffs without engaging low-range. Low range is not for low traction environments, it's for low-speed environments. For example, I would not engage low-range going up that hill. Most trucks actually disable all electronic traction aids if you put it in low-range.
Now I wish Land Rover made a Defender Classic, with the old school modernized design. And the New Defender keeping being the New Defender.
If they changed only the body design between models maybe it would be doable and would appeal to a broader audience like G-Wagon and Old Defender fans.
It's a good idea. I hope they sort it out.
So, an interesting and honest review. We'll stick to our wonderful Isuzu D'max up here in the Northern Highlands. Sadly the Grenadier is far too expensive and for a working commercial vehicle they've made it far to "Posh". Inside! I can almost buy two D'maxs for the same money and it's also far more economical to run. Shame but let's see if they bring out a more basic version out that we can throw muddy dogs and a few sheep in without it destroying all the delicate electronics and plush upholstery 🤔😁
Exactly, my own isuzu d max is a decent enough spec and is good enough towing and off road for what I need. My d max is used like a van and always full of tools, drums of fuel etc. For non work use I have a volvo xc60 and this is superbly comfortable on all types of roads and excellent in the winter on snow.
I'll stick with a two vehicle combination rather than putting my money into this compromise of a truck.
I think they have a two-seat van version, be far better for the sheep etc. Bare floor n'all. No jump seats like the old G-Wagen or Defender though.
Our D'max is a Double Cab. Often have more then Two people in it. We also have a Jeep. Both vehicles have been fantastic in the snow and floods up here in the Highlands. Both Vehicles together cost less than one of these Grenaderrs
@@johnraworth8019 and this isn't eligible for VAT relief due to its massive weight and small payload.
It's so impressive that they have tried to do this, but so hard to think of a reason to buy it vs Defender, Land Cruiser, Wrangler/Bronco in the US.
Also, the price is hilarious
Not hard at all, I would NEVER buy a Wrangler, Defender or Land Cruiser. Where i live this Car will be the same price or even Less. Drving around in a car EVERYBODY got is so 1990's. lol
In the US its a non-sale. This thing was made for English muddy ruts. Over here in the US we have offroad vehicles that put this thing to shame unfortunately. I was pretty stoked about it when it was first announced as a replacement for my FJ Cruiser but alas... I think I'll pass and just import a JDM landcruiser or get a new bronco.
I really don't see what is impressive about a billionaire's vanity project that has spawned a fundamentally flawed car.
@@nothingtoseaheardammit I think comparing a solid front axle work vehicle to IFS Yotas and Fords is a fallacy. This is far closer to a Wrangler (except built better) or a G-wagen than an FJ. Way more articulation than an IFS, way more durable off road with higher payloads. A JDM landcruiser is RHD and also has parts availability issues (though no doubt a new company like Ineos will suffer some to begin with), and a new Bronco is in a completely different class of vehicle. Its size, form factor, styling and engine sizes all point to US market, with a European twist. Remember, a "farm truck" in Europe have small engines, and are often two-door wagons/pickups. My uncle Seamus had a naturally aspirated diesel G-Wagen professional two-door making all of 70hp (maybe) back in the day.
One of the best things on the old Pajero/Shogun was the Compass/ Gradient Indicator! As men we get great enjoyment out of knowing these things, every 4x4 should have one! 😂
can't beat a old mk2 shogun..
What a pity, was hoping to get one at some stage. Will definitely wait. Thanks
Interesting review, always comparing it to the new defender is ok for the UK however in Oz there are very few defenders/discovery/range rovers used in the true outback. Having mechanical diff locks etc is a plus out here. Less electrical problems.
But thanks for pointing out the issues I would have being 6 ft 4” tall. The annoying B pillar and that hump for the left foot. I had that in my Pajero Sport and on long trips my left leg would cramp up really badly.
yes very biased
clearly he has been paid off by land rover
Agreed. I think the biggest thing missed in the review is that hardly anyone who's buying this is going to run it as a standard vehicle - it's going to get converted into a proper 4WD or overlander by most owners. It's built to be customised, and the small number of compromises present are almost certainly worth it for most. I know I certainly don't want smart electronics to "just let me drive" over everything - I want to choose what the car is doing. It's using Harrop-Eaton eLockers for the diff locks, which is exactly what I would put on it if it only had soft-roader "smart" electronics.
@@ClipsByMiles so its over priced.
Be interesting to see how the new Toyota Land Cruiser (think you call them a Troopies) stacks up v the Grenadier under Oz conditions as you chaps have some v harsh conditions to deal with.
@@BlesamaSoul In Australia the 70 Series is the bulletproof, manual only V8 4wd commonly bought by mining and outback pastoral activities. Although a lot of people buy the 4 door version for touring and towing duties. I would think if you wanted to compete with the Landcruiser , the 300 series would be the better vehicle to compare with. Both are way too expensive in Australia at about $100k for a reasonable version. Way out of my league unless I win Lotto.
would love to see some more farm equipment reviews mixed in
Yeah what's the best plough to pull these days?
@@SingaporeSling1 prob have to sell a lambo to afford one mind
Also speaking of the new Wrangler, it is proof you can have a ladder chassis and solid front axle, and still have decent on-road manners. Not as great as independent suspension, but still great. They have really dialled in the steering since the last generation (which drove more like two motorbikes welded together haha)
And at £40k nearly new with folding rear seats it’s excellent we use one at home with a 3.5 lift and winch it does everything we need.
That rear small door function flawlessly to store the shoes in this video.
Looks enormous
The deal breakers for me is ( only sat in one, not driven ) A- the foot well in the RHD and it is small inside compared to my TD42TI Patrol.
I am somewhat disappointed by Harry’s lack of understanding of the sales target group. This is meant to be sold to and driven by people without any mechanical sympathy. It is meant to be repaired in the bush and by low-skilled mechanics. It’s not an equivalent of the new Defender, as the new Defender is actually a Discovery with a different outfit. The Deffy is not going to last long enough in the wild and good luck finding a computer diagnostics if it breaks a few thousand kms from civilization.
That’s why this car was built. It’s an alternative of the Toyota LC 70-series. And this is pretty obvious, which makes me wonder if Harry wrote his homework upfront?
That being the case, the Grenadier fails on all counts. Electronic digital dash. BMW engine. ZF autobox. It should have a brutally simple 4-cylinder diesel and a manual gearbox, plus an analogue gauge cluster, if it is meant to thrive in that market. But it isn't. It's an expensive toy for rich posers.
You've got to be kidding me! See, I have just been watching Jay Leno's video featuring a Military Spec Land Rover S3. Kinda great timing, guys, even if not deliberate.
Cheers, Bunti
Was waiting for this review on this channel🎉
Fair play to Sir Jim for bringing all those jobs to the EU a true European patriot.
Yeah, he's nominally British but hasn't lived there for years. He's a tax exile who lives in Monaco.
@@idanceforpennies281 you can live abroad but still be British, I’m British but I don’t live there🤷♂️
@@Jabber-ig3iw Yes but it if you do all that it behoves you not to pipe up in favour of Brexit.
Ironic isn’t it
@Jabber 1974 at least when Sir Jim returns home to his native sod he has the native subjects bending the knee to his good Sir ,yes Sir Jim no Sir Jim .
I'd love to see an off-road review of this vehicle.
‘I think it’s a bit of a floor’ great pun!
I think Jim has completely missed his own brief. It was supposed to be a cheaper alternative to the Defender without all the luxury and car like features which moved that car up the price band. It looks like a Chinese knock off and it's way too expensive
Sir Jim should stick to business he knows, this obviously is a loss making venture. But he's rich enough to waste money and effort pursuing meaningless ventures.
@@we-can-dounfortunately we're not rich enough to endure his other folly Brexit
@@alexanderstefanov6474 we dont need to be rich are benefit’s of Brexit is in other way’s .
Agree; it does look like a knock-off!
I agree, I was excited to see what the Grenadier would become as it was supposed to be the next gen Defender, and appeal to the off road / farming / country sports communities, however the final cost is way beyond the initial projections and even the utility model it’s far too expensive to be used commercially compared to the likes of the Hilux etc. It was supposed to be low tech I.e mechanical as opposed to electrical, but failed in that regard as well.
All in all it’s more like a Discovery than a Defender, and is just another Chelsea tractor with a Defender-ish look.
I bet the depreciation will be horrendous on the first batch of cars and can only hope that they manage to get the price down sort the niggles and find their niche, otherwise this has Delorean written all over it (without the flux capacitor) 😀
I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on the Suzuki Jimny as a farm car. It seems the antithesis of this car - tiny, barely a tonne, cheap as chips, and puts a smile on your face. Like this, it's objectively terrible, but it doesn't pretend to be anything else. I have a sneaking suspicion you might enjoy it for bouncing around the farm and pooling to the shops.
Towing would be an issue amongst lots of others
@@sweetfreedomGB oh yeah, it has many, many faults, but also much to commend it, certainly at the price.
@@georgehelliar yes, agreed
@b64lewis Yes a quad would work but you would sacrifice any form of storage room and weather protection, so why not just use a dirt bike, plus i don't know the legislation regarding quads in the uk but in greece quads are not allowed in residential areas. With a jimny you can be warm and dry while going up and down on the farm and then you can go to the village to run errands as easily as any supermini, it's not a bad combination of attributes but certainly not a one vehicle solution
The Jimney commercial makes a lot of sense as a small people and tool carrier for a country estate, with good off road capability and superior roadability [though very uncomfortable] compared to something like a Kawasaki Mule or Deere Gator. It isn’t much more expensive either.
In other areas it isn’t competing in the same class at all as Grenadier or Defender. It competes more with front wheel drive small French and Italian brand vans when much of the off-road extremes can be avoided, which is most of the time for many potential customers.
Those of you who watched the Harry's garage video can skip to 9:45. Before that he repeats the overview of the Grenadier from that video.
And was equally negative from the start
If it were a JLR product he’d be smiling from ear to ear
Thanks for your excellent review....pretty much as I thot...main one been price...at 40k you could overlook the niggles but last year I bought a Ranger Wildtrax for 34k (courtesy NFU) its no Land Rover but at half the price you say thank you and smile😁
The draw back for the G and the defender for me has always been the boot opening size. Just not wide enough
I'm glad it exists. Some of the shortcomings in one's eyes aren't necessarily anything to be concerned about for others. Good review.
....But when you start adding up ALL those shortcomings collectively.....So many of them could have easily been engineered-out at first glance...
You tried to climb that hill without the centre diff lock. This is also why you couldn't engage the front and rear lockers. This is a very sloppy review and you should have learnt how the vehicle works before wasting everyone's time.
@@kevinfrancis2245 he did lock the centre.
The steering is like that to bring back fond memories of old defenders 1/2 turn play in it 😂😂 I learned to drive in the Army in an Air portable .. and the steering was a guessing game..
I am looking forward to the day when they remake the Hillman Avenger or maybe Ford Zodiac - after all, they worked for us back then...
Maybe Sir Jim's next car will be the Ineos Allegro?
My 1971 Hillman Avenger was terrible. My 1982 Astra felt like it came from a different century.
I can see the hard core 4x4 fans loving the manual diff you have to fiddle about with to get working
Shame the Ineos Grenadier wasn't manufactured in the UK.
I think something that happened in 2016 was the cause of that.
Ironically, it's named after the Royal Grenadiers that fought at Waterloo against Napoleon, but it's made in France. 😂
Especially since Ratface was a champion of Brexit. Nobody in Britain should be buying this foreign crap!🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧
All of those gammon Brexiteers thought they were going to get a replacement for an old-style Defender. I recall a number of them claiming it would 'start' from £30K and be built in the UK.
It ended up costing twice as much, was built by foreigners in the EU by a non-domiciled Brexiteer who doesn't want the jobs to go to Brits, and gets poor reviews.
It is a billionaire's vanity project that deserves a decent burial.
@@ronanmc2112 something that Ratcliffe was a proponent of!
Great review Harry, very fair and unbiased. I fear that Ineos is trying to satisfy too many different customer groups. I thought the original intention was to provide a Defender clone at a reasonable price suitable for use on farms, Construction and the like. Here we have a vehicle loaded with all sorts of gizmos trying to compete with a myriad of other 4x4 offerings which I understood was never the primal intention of this vehicle!
Way off
@@user-yv8kd2jo2x - what?
its a confusing vehicle overall. its target market would sem to be farms and young folk neeeding a half decent 30k workhorse
I actually have a Trailmaster Grenadier. My comments are as follows. Lots of good things. I agree with Harry that there is a great lump where you you want to put your left foot owing to the exhaust routing. The bonnet release catch is on the passenger side too. These two facts suggest that the car was principally designed with left hand drive in mind. There is no grab handle on the driver's windscreen pillar as there is on the passenger side - if this was deemed to be obstructing the driver's view then put a folding handle in place (similar to the one on the inside roof). The lack of a flat load space is a disapointment, but this should be easily fixed by adding something like a pallet to level things up. I guess if there is sufficient demand Truckman will produce a slide out accessory to compensate this. I don't think that the split rear door is a problem - apparently there was a weight issue with a single door. It's a pity that Ineos didn't ask ordinary people who owned similar vehicles for their comments in the development stage rather than having celebrities like Harry Kane and other footballers posing with the vehicle. The steering is odd and I suspect that it just takes getting used to. My previous vehicle was a HiLux and in terms of road use drove more car like than the Grenadier. Horses for courses maybe. The problem with the HiLux steering geometry is that if you hit a rut off road it would throw the steering all over the place, this would not be the case with the Grenadier's set-up. In terms of price, I started the purchase in the early stages of the vehicle's development and my Grenadier cost around about £60k including some extras - Ineos were very fair in holding their launch prices for those who put down deposits in the early stages.
I've been watching this fascinating project from the side lines, and I don't understand the gap in the market that Ratcliffe sees. But he's rather a clever chap and I'm just a nobody off t'internet.
I was hoping for a cult car for the masses as the whole market has gone poncy. At ~£66,000, this isn't it. But bravo to Ratcliffe for getting it produced. I accept it's perhaps a strategy to recoup as much of the capital start up costs as possible whilst learning for the next model. He needs to sell about 23,000 if it's a commercial proposition, that's probably about 2 years worth. Or perhaps, with £40bn in the bank, he's just doing it for the hell of it.
there is no gap, its almost like its aiming for 14 year olds in some ways
A tow bar should be fitted as standard. I don't know why anyone would want a large 4wd vehicle without a tow bar...?
Yes it’s ridiculous. Probably a 2k option
I have one and have never used it. Not everyone wants or needs one.
@@fanfeck2844
£600 actually and about half the price of Land Rover’s folding hitch.
I believe it’s standard equipment on the trialmaster
Harry surely this is way better than an RL ,Bedford . This is an military . This vehicle will tow anything from a barge to full laden double decker bus.surely the design encompasses 1950 1st principles yet modern drive trains .I used go down to the recreational boat ramps on weekend
Just watch the guys in modded landrovers and haul out their 35ft motor launches and the children loved being part of the action here it is!! Thankyou Sir
That's a lot of money for the car... I'm lucky enough to have the new 110, and very happy for it.
I’ve just driven the new 110 off road and it was fantastic, insanely capable, if I needed one I’d buy one, only issue is longevity, will they still be on the road in 30+ years time like the old one?
@@Jabber-ig3iw To be fair the only reason any of the old ones are on the road is because people loved them and threw money at them, when all good sense and logic would say "buy something else!".
If your heart said yes, no reason not to go for it and enjoy yourself.
After living with ours for just a few days, I have to ask, am I driving the same car? This review really surprised and disappointed me as did the one on HG. Most unusual. I'll review our Grenadier again after 1000 miles and at six months. So far I'm really pleased with it and we also have both new and old 110 Defender on the fleet.
Again, a nice review Harry, this time about a very brave attemp to put a car like this on the road. As a massive fan for all Land Rover i am intrigued by the Grenadier but i can not get used to its cluttered and messy design, tried hard to however ...and still trying...
As much as I like Harry, I also take what he says with a grain of salt. Here is a perfect example of why.... All I've heard is that this vehicle lacks the luxuries he's come to expect at his older age - the doors are too heavy, he doesn't want to have to engage the diffs manually, the road noise for him is far too high. He's missing the point entirely.... this vehicle was made to go off roading and overlanding and be infinitely repairable in the wilderness by owners. This car wasn't made for bombing through the Cotswalds or going from Newport Beach over to Beverly Hills in California... this vehicle was built for a purpose, and those that have deposits in the Western United States are very excited to finalize builds and take delivery later this year. Also-for those of us that are BMW fans... this is finally a BMW powered Off Road rig!! Best of both worlds.
A Ford Ranger for £20k less has a vastly more luxurious interior, double the payload and is better off road. This thing is just crap everywhere. I'm a BMW owner and I wouldn't want a BMW engine in a truck!
@@richardharrold9736 it’s clear you don’t know what you’re talking about.
I agree with you; The pre-production story-telling was “built-for-purpose” and “not a SUV”. However, that is not what is coming off the assembly line! Please explain to me HOW this vehicle is better for off roading and over landing than the new Defender? A true 4x4 does not need to have terrible ergonomics and steering to be good!
@@number1Schumacherfan no, I do know what I'm talking about. This thing is way too heavy, it can't carry anything much, it's not eligible for VAT relief, it has poor ground clearance, the interior is horrid... and that engine is not reliable.
@@richardharrold9736 stuff it mate. You're a miserable old codger that can't afford it so you're slagging everyone else off
I broke my finger in two places hitting a rock offroad so I would accept the extra turning to avoid that 😅 I've always preferred mechanical high / low diffs etc as you can put weight on the lever and feel when it drops in rather than looking for a flashing light. People are buying them, I've seen a fair few around. However commercially I would be surprised if a business would buy one over a pickup just because of the cost. Most pickups are good enough off road for the job in the uk but half the price. I like the idea but can't see me buying one. 👍
totally. this would literallyrock it at those prices and to me thats wher tis hould be priced. if it isnt viable, then it isnt viable as a business really
I have to say that the Grenadier looks a lot like a modern version of my 1977 Land Rover 109" Series III which had the 2.6 liter petrol inline six. I loved the car and it did some pretty serious challenges in the Norwegian mountains. Would I have bought a Grenadier rather than a new Defender 110 today? I don't think so and the explanation is, as Harry also points out, development has moved on and we demand more comfort and convinience today. Now, if I were going on an expedition to Siberia or deep into Africa a Granadier would probably have been a more natural choice, but then again I would rather have chosen a Toyota Land Cruiser J100/J200 for such a project.
I can’t wait to see the Munro electric vehicle on Harry’s Farm.👍
Or a Rivian
@@InspirationSessions For Harry’s Farm, I’d pass on the Rivian, I think it’s more lifestyle vehicle or Chelsea Tractor. I’d probably reserve the Rivian for Harry’s Garage!
@@commuterbranchline8132 not sure how it would cope with proper British mud, this is true. What Americans think of as mud and what we in the UK think of as mud is often not the same thing, in my experience...
Niche as you say correct people may like the caricture
Dear Harry please read, being a chap abit like you but 40 iv spent allot of time on utube and just wanted to say a bloody good well done to you firstly, you really are the definition of a good English bloke of which I am too. Anyway your work on UA-cam is just brilliant and I appreciate it. Wishing you and your family the best good sir.
''being a chap abit like you but 40...'' 😆😆😆
Same remarque as with the new defender: I got a 2009 discovery 3, doing all the stuff i have seen on the farm, for a fraction of the money and in better comfort and with better all around view. It tows my 4-horses trailer (officially 3.5 tons, in reality closer to 4 tons) with relative ease to. And i don't have to worry about one more dent in it either.
So second hand things are cheaper than new ones?😮
@@malcolm8938 cheaper and better i think is the point
Harry you can’t turn on front and rear diff locks until you have locked the centre diff. You do this via the small lever next to the gear selector.
I’d locked the centre diff when I entered the field and selected off-road via the roof mounted switch!
Don’t you need to be stopped to engage the diffs?
No - up to 15kph
The point is that Harry's an experienced driver of this sort of vehicle and has good mechanical sympathy. If he's finding it awkward, it's a design flaw.
@@harrysfarmvids did it not work at all the time you had it? as you say all looks a bit of a faff to engage it etc when the auto locking rear diff works so well.
Amazing ❤
Great review!! Surprisingly, you are the first reviewer to show the rear seats folded down. I was hoping they were going to fold down flat. What a disappointment! Also, the turning radius is another huge disappointment. Unfortunately, I'm going to have to pass on this vehicle. It's a great looking vehicle with too many flaws.
This is just a beginning, the coming variants will steadily improve on performance
Overall it is impressive that the Grenadier made it to market, it’s the first unit they made so I have to believe it will improve, I’m not someone who would want so much specification so look forward to the commercial variant, but first impressions are important and mine are not very positive.
I agree and to be fair, if this is to be considered the first version, with all its faults...I don't think it'll be long before this characterful behemoth becomes a list-topper for wealthy farmers, hunters and even places like australia and NZ
Would have liked to have seen a lot more off road action!!! Also I note that you used the small rear door to place your boots in the back..... with no problems!!!! Regards Ian 👨🎤🇳🇿
You got me on the rear door malarkey! 👏👏
@@harrysfarmvids finally some plaudits 😂
I believe you need to lock the centre diff before engaging the rear and front diff lockers. The weight is similar to a Landcruiser with similar specs. It's great to get an informed view of the shortcomings of the vehicle. I like the new defender and was very interested in getting one. My observation is there have been a number of owners with significant failures within short periods after taking delivery. This put me off purchasing one. Maybe this has been resolved, as they have been around for a little while. I recently priced one after watching Harry's other video, and they are more expensive for a similar level of equipment. Luxury car tax alone adds another $11k to the Defender's price.
Did he not lock the centre diff? If that's true, this reviewer shouldn't be taken seriously when reviewing 4x4 vehicles. Common knowledge to anyone who has experience with 4x4 that you should lock the centre diff prior to engaging cross axle diffs. ps: I have no idea who he is. Cheers from OZ
@@cyclemoto8744 no, he did lock the centre, he's said so in several comments. He's an experienced owner of every 4x4 from a Series 1 Landy forwards.
@@richardharrold9736 Good to know, in that case his test vehicle has an issue. thanks
@@cyclemoto8744 it appears to have many, many issues... sufficient to render it an unviable purchase and uncompetitive in the market, arguably unsafe to drive...
I suppose it depends on how robust they are, on my dad's park they have two 07 plate rangers, they have had tatas and Santana's but they all ware out, mean while they still have a m reg defender going strong, they are now slowly replacing the fleet with used old defenders as they are just so rugged and last, on road performance is nice to have however most of their vehicles life's are spent off road.
Its not the properly rugged vehicle it promised to be and not the not sub 50k either. I dont want to be disappointed... but
As someone who has committed to and is dead keen on this vehicle, I have my own bias obviously. Even with that though I dont think this was a great review.
The garage review you did I can accept because you were reviewing it for a different purpose. In this one, the only off roading you did in it was a grassy field and one hill, and even that you couldn't be bother to work out how to engage the diff locks. It was at this point it became obvious that you had already made up you mind on the vehicle. The road test that you said you were not going to talk about here as it was the subject of your garage video, you then spent more time on the road and basically re-posted that at the end anyway (to pad this out?).
For the rest of us, front and rear diff lock options from factory are a big thing. Live axels are a big thing, factory winch is a big thing (even if you dont option it) wired accessories, rear power, roof power, driving lights, off road tyres, dual battery (that you also didnt understand) from factory are all a big thing.
It's clear this review was just content and you neither care to, nor understand this vehicle.
Bollocks. He had the centre diff locked as per the manual, the front and rear simply failed to engage. He did what off roading he can on his own farm. No excuse for it to be live axle now when all the competition are at least IFS and most IRS too. It's the best part of a ton too heavy to be any good off road...
Thanks for your input from both channels.
Any chance you can persuade Mercedes-Benz UK for a Unimog test drive.
would be cool to see some reviews / showcases of the other farm equipment and vehicles you have - Harry's Barn?
I'd like to see the more utilitarian models and how they stack up. The problem with the version tested is that one vehicle the market doesn't really need is another big luxury SUV. Rather than creating a new traditional Land Rover, they seem to have tried to make something very similar to what Land Rover did themselves in terms of the new Defender, which really has nothing in common with the utility Land Rovers of old.
lol ok cnbc tell us what the market "needs" christ
To say there is a coat of living crisis, you would think 50 to 60k for a car (or more likely the monthly lease) is way too much, but they'll shift loads of these and loads more land rovers. There's money out there, loads of it.
@@georgegently3026 It never ceases to amaze me how there is an endless stream of money to spend on expensive vehicles. Even though interest rates have been significantly raised here in the US, it seems manufacturers are subsidizing the rates and so the monthly cost is still relatively low and people do not focus on the common sense side of burning large amounts of money on leases, or carrying huge debt levels.
@@fiveowaf454 the majority of sales are primarily done on loans, credit and lease these days. It's in a way not a good system, because this so-called endless stream of money is far from endless and far from reliable. We're literally rushing head first into another major debt crisis this way. On the other hand though, people like me only benefit from this stupidity, considering I managed to get me a bargain buying a leased Audi A4 for 12k euros with only 50k kilometers on it.
it simply cannot be considered utilitarian if it costs me 4 years salary and if it is then part of the original meaning is lost
Huge turning circle, impractical rear bench, weird ergonomics, 2900kg (with most licences limited to 3,5t), huge total cost??? Those are not quick fix issues.
Other points I do agree with, but it doesn't have a huge cost compared to today's general price levels...or price per kg
nowhere comfortable for the left foot alone is a killer for me
@@pistonburner6448You can get a Hillux for half the price practically and that's a far far superior car for a farmer. If you drive through an area with lot of farms like where I'm from in Yorkshire you'll see in practically every farmyard a Hillux.
If you have been driving defenders for as long as I have the grenadier is,a complete luxurious 4x4 40year ownership of landrover, 300,thousand kms, in the current defender, and now deaf😅.
@@teabagtowers3823 1. Many cheaper cars are superior for a farmer.
2. A Hilux isn't anywhere near a competitor for this.
3. No-one said this has to be a hit with farmers overall, or due to the price.
G-Wagens are about double the price but they sell like hot cakes. Farmers don't need to buy them. Hiluxes are much better than them for many purposes. And yes, they are worth more than Grenadiers too. But even basic SUVs are often more expensive than the Grenadier.
This video is 90% like the one on Harrys garage. Expected more from Harry
So glad I got my deposit back 🎉
As most 4x4's never go off road, i suspect the full leather version with more comfort may well attract buyers looking for the old Defender look, but wanting all the bells and whistles, rather like all the various Range Rovers on the school or shopping run
The 4by4s that drive around puddles in a car park?
Plenty go off-road, just because you see they in the supermarket car park doesn’t mean they don’t go off road, I’m guessing Ineos hope this will be bought by farmers who definitely go off-road.
The weight is extraordinary, my 2000 TD5 130 with camper conversion weighs less than that, it also gets better MPG.
And isn't a blattent rip off.
Alloy body
Yes but the good old Defender is no good in a crash and all that safety weighs a lot1!
@@stevefuller1779 true but it’s still excessive
my 1980 vw transporter is about 700kg and is better hahah
That green though 🤌
My Smart Roadster doesn’t self-centre very well either… funnily enough built in the same factory !
Finally a good truthful review, been thinking of one of these the past 3/4 years all the hype for a good solid analog pretender and the, other reviews make it seem like they smashed it, you made some good solid points :)
Thanks for the good honest review