Hellsight may need a nerf but the thing is; it's not automatic. It takes an action, which means you need to suspect there's something funky going on. Which means the subterfuge you're trying to detect is already failing somewhat.
@@mcolville Yeah I get that. I think I will need to play with it in a game to see how effective it actually is. I'm not sure if you're familiar with the Warlock Invocation from Xanathar's called Ghostly Gaze which allows you to see through walls once per short rest. That has a similar feel where because you have to choose when to use it, the players have to time it optimally to get the best use out of it, but if timed perfectly it can screw all your plans! That's a part of the fun of DMing though.
@@dio52 Yeah, it's basically a divine sense equivalent and two levels later. Paladins can just go "that guys a fiend/undead" but Illrigger's won't know what they are, just that they are disguised or invisible. Also, it only works on magic so if its an innate ability like a doppelganger, wildshaping or arguably a polymorph, they won't know either. For new spells, Arcadia issue 3 is where its at.
An important note for Hellsight is that it requires an action and doesnt last for long. Meaning that: the illrigger has already caught wind of the deception and is trying to suss it out, and that it requires co scouts effort by the player. It also has a limited number of single round uses up the CHA mod that recharges on a long rest. I might rule it PB instead of CHA mod, but other than that, I think it's ok.
I found Shadowmaster really interesting. It's all I want mechanically but there wasn't a combination like this in any of the classes. I had to take a bunch of feats and multiclass etc.
I have been playing a couple of Illriggers and I found the Hellsight highly situational, I use it all the time with nothing found. Even in combat I would be reluctant to waste my two attacks so I can use it. I love the Painkiller subclass and the Architect of Ruin but the mechanics of the Shadow of Maloch subclass doesn't work since you can't use Charisma for your attacks if you use daggers that you encouraged to use and two weapon fighting uses your bonus action which already need to place your seals.
I think the Moloch subclass analysis got a bit of a short-shrift, in terms of the cap-level ability. Being able to remove Strength points from an enemy can lead into a death spiral for that enemy (as Matt has commented on in relation to shadows in the past). One thing I am curious about is whether the Illrigger can control the resulting shadow that emerges from an enemy killed by that attack.
Yeah, supposedly playtesters found this balanced but... The enemy has disadvantage to hit you, you get +2 AC, you have resistance to most damage, they might not be able to run, and within 2 or 3 rounds the target is dead from strength drain, which may have reduced the enemies accuracy. You can solo... Just about anything.
@@Chaosmancer7 gotta remember thats Level 20. Exactly how many DMs or Campaigns run to Level 20? Almost none, ever. Unless you wanted to homebrew campaigns up the wazoo. also let's be honest, 20th Lv Capstones deserve to be semi-game breaking.
@@halohawkxx Sure, most games won't get to 20. That isn't an excuse. But look at other capstones. The barbarian gets a +2 to attack and damage and an extra 40 hp. They can take half damage and deal... let's say 25 damage a hit with GWM. And they'd have an effective 500 HP? Approximately. A max hp Tarrasque (legal monster) has 990 hp. Assuming the barbarian never misses, it will take them 20 turns to kill the Tarrasque. Who meanwhile will likely not miss, and deals 148 damage a turn. Effective hp accounts for resistance so you have... 5 turns if you are lucky. An illrigger shadow master does 3d4 strength damage a turn, that's about 7 per turn. That kills the Tarrasque in... 4 to 5 turns. If we assume the Shadow master with better AC (no reckless attack, disadvantage to hit them, reducing the enemies attack value) they could have the Dane effective hp. Meaning that the Shadow Master could easily win before dying. That is extreme power
I bought into the concept during the first episode of the Chain of Acheron, Matt's streamed game and I've been semi-obsessed since. For me it's more about the theme, than the mechanics. IMO, the Shadowmaster has the most flavour. The character gets to be social (deceptive, coercive, ingratiating) and puts up some minions in front of them while shifting around the battlefield. Negotiations, blackmail, and double crosses are the daily routine. In my mind, a Shadowmaster is more like a bard than rogue. They perform a utility role; setting up situations, pulling the strings in the background. All while being able to have an impact in combat. Some players may have problems with this class because the may abuse their party. So the Illrigger is not for them. In my mind, an Illrigger could fit well into any party, simply because they'll do whatever necessary in order to achieve their (Nine Hell's?) goal. Arkan's theft of the Hand of Vecna is a good model for this type of play.
Don't understand your rationale around hellsight. In no place in the description does it say you void the use of magic to disguise, it just says you are aware something is being used and where the creature is. This is just a variation of detect good and evil style abilities that grave clerics and paladins get.
I played an illrigger for over a year and I mostly enjoyed it. It has a lot of flavor but some parts of it feel underpowered to me. I would made Invoke authority either 1 per short or long rest or proficiency per long rest. Then again this could have been because of my group.
Hey Joseph! Just wondering if maybe you can describe your character a bit? My DM really wants me to give it a try and thinks I'd be a really good one. But I was curious if anyone and yourself could describe how you made them fit into a party, goals, ideals, and flaws.
@@mr.quantum4543 Sure thing. I was a drow illrigger. The DM had an order if evil knights in the area that inwas aligned with. We were basically the peacekeepers in the area. My party even went so far as to ha e a paladin and we never fought because we both had the same goals. It was our methods that were different. Where the paladin went around and used their righteous to convince others. I played the illrigger as a sly lawyer. Always reminding others of their obligations or making bargains to secure alliances. I had offered the knights as bodyguards to various lords in return to their fealty to a particular lord who I had a common goal with. It was a lot of fun.
The document actually covers that. If you MC, you don't get the full spell progression of the subclass, you are now treated as a half caster. It also warns that, yes, this will likely mean you lose spell slots by multiclassing, and that is intentional.
I'm interested in using the class as inspiration for the BBEGs in a campaign. It will involve some simplification and probably some tweaking. I might make those seals visible so the players know theyve been marked. 👺some action oriented NPC illrigers mwah hah hah!
oh dude - make the seals PERMANENT(with slight modification) and have the BBEG mark a different player every now and then so they roll into the fight with him, eventually, with every PC having a different debuff Mark on them! (or maybe 3 marked, but one led the others on a quest to remove his...)
I find it odd that you put so much emphasis and weight on the Hellsight ability. It isn't as powerful as you're making it out to be. First, it does not NEGATE the magic it works on. If someone's using an illusion spell to disguise themself, you can't see through that illusion. You simply know where they are. You won't have any idea what it's doing though. Something like the common magic item Boots of False Tracks might cause the Hellsight ability to go off, and that could be interesting misdirection in and of itself. For Invisibility it also doesn't NEGATE the invisibility. It simply lets you know where someone is. I might know that an invisible person is right there, but I still can't see them, so I still have Disadvantage and they still have Advantage. If they're also trying to Hide, I'd negate the Hide itself, but not the Invisibility. Second, you claim that level 3 is too early to have access to something like this. But the following spells exist: Alarm Detect Evil and Good Detect Magic See Invisibility Of those, only See Invisibility is a 2nd level spells. All are accessible by level 3. They might not work the same way as Hellsight, but they do all function similarly, and can, for the most part, accomplish as much or more as the Hellsight ability. For instance, Detect Magic will detect Illusion Magic. It also can be ritual cast, so it won't even use a spell slot... Third, Hellsight only works on MAGIC that disguises or hides. If something has an innate ability to change themselves or turn invisible (changeling, shapeshifter, doppleganger, Imp, etc) then the ability doesn't work on them, since it isn't magic that's doing it. Fourth, the ability only lasts 6 seconds per use, and will likely only have 3 (or less) uses per long rest, and it costs an entire action to use it. And then, fifth, obviously this only really applies in the very specific and niche circumstances in which magic used to hide or disguise is being used. That might come up, what, one maybe two times between level 3 and 6 or so in your average game? It's not exactly something used a whole lot. And when it does come up, I don't exactly see an issue with letting someone playing an Illrigger shine with it. I feel like you read the ability, and just saw the worst case scenario of how the ability COULD be made, rather than seeing the actual limited mechanics that are present in the ability itself. It honestly is more of a ribbon ability to me, and definitely not nearly as powerful as you make it out to be. A 2nd level Warlock can take an Invocation to at-will cast Detect Magic, and it'll give the Warlock MORE information than an Illrigger gets, as it at least tells you the school of magic used, and gives you an outline of the creature.
Its worth considering evil pcs, you have to trust whoever is going to play one at the table. But you don't need to trust them anymore than someone playing a good aligned character. If either are played by an asshole you are gonna have a bad time. I think evil characters can be played as long as they don't actively work against the party and ruin fun. Though having someone in the party willing to do anythig and make evil choices can be very fun.
@@MyrddintheBard I suppose. I like to run heroic games. I also am picky about who I let play at my table. Thankfully I've had the good fortune of having enough good friends that I haven't had to accept randoms that I'm not sure I can trust.
@@TuckBolt Yeah i would never suggest that you were playing wrong. Im glad you are having fun with your friends. I like more gritty morally grey games. Alignment is difficult and evil is usually to strong in one direction for believable people. And although the Illrigger is designed as a lawful evil class it doenst have to be played as such. A redemption arc would be fun.
Nice.
Thanks for taking the time to watch it :)
Hellsight may need a nerf but the thing is; it's not automatic. It takes an action, which means you need to suspect there's something funky going on. Which means the subterfuge you're trying to detect is already failing somewhat.
@@mcolville Yeah I get that. I think I will need to play with it in a game to see how effective it actually is. I'm not sure if you're familiar with the Warlock Invocation from Xanathar's called Ghostly Gaze which allows you to see through walls once per short rest. That has a similar feel where because you have to choose when to use it, the players have to time it optimally to get the best use out of it, but if timed perfectly it can screw all your plans! That's a part of the fun of DMing though.
@@ShriKenerd Seems to me that Paladin's Divine Sense, a 1st level class feature, is a more apt comparison, no?
@@dio52 Yeah, it's basically a divine sense equivalent and two levels later. Paladins can just go "that guys a fiend/undead" but Illrigger's won't know what they are, just that they are disguised or invisible. Also, it only works on magic so if its an innate ability like a doppelganger, wildshaping or arguably a polymorph, they won't know either. For new spells, Arcadia issue 3 is where its at.
👇 GET A FREE HELLSCAPE MAP 👇
www.shrikednd.com/maps/illrigger-hellscape
An important note for Hellsight is that it requires an action and doesnt last for long. Meaning that: the illrigger has already caught wind of the deception and is trying to suss it out, and that it requires co scouts effort by the player. It also has a limited number of single round uses up the CHA mod that recharges on a long rest. I might rule it PB instead of CHA mod, but other than that, I think it's ok.
Ooo. The Illrigger is pretty bad ass. I love the flavor.
I found Shadowmaster really interesting. It's all I want mechanically but there wasn't a combination like this in any of the classes. I had to take a bunch of feats and multiclass etc.
Really good video review, I'm going to try out this class today as a tiefling (seemed perfectly fitting) illrigger.
Thank you! And enjoy playing it. Let me know how it goes.
I have been playing a couple of Illriggers and I found the Hellsight highly situational, I use it all the time with nothing found. Even in combat I would be reluctant to waste my two attacks so I can use it. I love the Painkiller subclass and the Architect of Ruin but the mechanics of the Shadow of Maloch subclass doesn't work since you can't use Charisma for your attacks if you use daggers that you encouraged to use and two weapon fighting uses your bonus action which already need to place your seals.
I think the Moloch subclass analysis got a bit of a short-shrift, in terms of the cap-level ability. Being able to remove Strength points from an enemy can lead into a death spiral for that enemy (as Matt has commented on in relation to shadows in the past). One thing I am curious about is whether the Illrigger can control the resulting shadow that emerges from an enemy killed by that attack.
Yeah, supposedly playtesters found this balanced but...
The enemy has disadvantage to hit you, you get +2 AC, you have resistance to most damage, they might not be able to run, and within 2 or 3 rounds the target is dead from strength drain, which may have reduced the enemies accuracy.
You can solo... Just about anything.
@@Chaosmancer7 gotta remember thats Level 20. Exactly how many DMs or Campaigns run to Level 20? Almost none, ever. Unless you wanted to homebrew campaigns up the wazoo. also let's be honest, 20th Lv Capstones deserve to be semi-game breaking.
@@halohawkxx Sure, most games won't get to 20. That isn't an excuse.
But look at other capstones. The barbarian gets a +2 to attack and damage and an extra 40 hp. They can take half damage and deal... let's say 25 damage a hit with GWM. And they'd have an effective 500 HP? Approximately.
A max hp Tarrasque (legal monster) has 990 hp. Assuming the barbarian never misses, it will take them 20 turns to kill the Tarrasque. Who meanwhile will likely not miss, and deals 148 damage a turn. Effective hp accounts for resistance so you have... 5 turns if you are lucky.
An illrigger shadow master does 3d4 strength damage a turn, that's about 7 per turn. That kills the Tarrasque in... 4 to 5 turns. If we assume the Shadow master with better AC (no reckless attack, disadvantage to hit them, reducing the enemies attack value) they could have the Dane effective hp. Meaning that the Shadow Master could easily win before dying.
That is extreme power
Literally 14 ads in a 20min video? Hmm.... Decent content, but might hold off on subbing to *this* channel.
14 ads?! Oh god. I will see how I can stop that...
@@ShriKenerd Looks like whatever you did fixed it!
I bought into the concept during the first episode of the Chain of Acheron, Matt's streamed game and I've been semi-obsessed since. For me it's more about the theme, than the mechanics. IMO, the Shadowmaster has the most flavour. The character gets to be social (deceptive, coercive, ingratiating) and puts up some minions in front of them while shifting around the battlefield. Negotiations, blackmail, and double crosses are the daily routine. In my mind, a Shadowmaster is more like a bard than rogue. They perform a utility role; setting up situations, pulling the strings in the background. All while being able to have an impact in combat.
Some players may have problems with this class because the may abuse their party. So the Illrigger is not for them. In my mind, an Illrigger could fit well into any party, simply because they'll do whatever necessary in order to achieve their (Nine Hell's?) goal. Arkan's theft of the Hand of Vecna is a good model for this type of play.
Don't understand your rationale around hellsight. In no place in the description does it say you void the use of magic to disguise, it just says you are aware something is being used and where the creature is. This is just a variation of detect good and evil style abilities that grave clerics and paladins get.
I played an illrigger for over a year and I mostly enjoyed it. It has a lot of flavor but some parts of it feel underpowered to me. I would made Invoke authority either 1 per short or long rest or proficiency per long rest. Then again this could have been because of my group.
Hey Joseph! Just wondering if maybe you can describe your character a bit? My DM really wants me to give it a try and thinks I'd be a really good one. But I was curious if anyone and yourself could describe how you made them fit into a party, goals, ideals, and flaws.
@@mr.quantum4543 Sure thing. I was a drow illrigger. The DM had an order if evil knights in the area that inwas aligned with. We were basically the peacekeepers in the area. My party even went so far as to ha e a paladin and we never fought because we both had the same goals. It was our methods that were different. Where the paladin went around and used their righteous to convince others. I played the illrigger as a sly lawyer. Always reminding others of their obligations or making bargains to secure alliances. I had offered the knights as bodyguards to various lords in return to their fealty to a particular lord who I had a common goal with. It was a lot of fun.
One issue with being between a half and a full caster: how to set spell slots for multiclassing?
The document actually covers that. If you MC, you don't get the full spell progression of the subclass, you are now treated as a half caster. It also warns that, yes, this will likely mean you lose spell slots by multiclassing, and that is intentional.
I'm interested in using the class as inspiration for the BBEGs in a campaign. It will involve some simplification and probably some tweaking. I might make those seals visible so the players know theyve been marked. 👺some action oriented NPC illrigers mwah hah hah!
oh dude - make the seals PERMANENT(with slight modification) and have the BBEG mark a different player every now and then
so they roll into the fight with him, eventually, with every PC having a different debuff Mark on them! (or maybe 3 marked, but one led the others on a quest to remove his...)
I find it odd that you put so much emphasis and weight on the Hellsight ability. It isn't as powerful as you're making it out to be.
First, it does not NEGATE the magic it works on. If someone's using an illusion spell to disguise themself, you can't see through that illusion. You simply know where they are. You won't have any idea what it's doing though. Something like the common magic item Boots of False Tracks might cause the Hellsight ability to go off, and that could be interesting misdirection in and of itself. For Invisibility it also doesn't NEGATE the invisibility. It simply lets you know where someone is. I might know that an invisible person is right there, but I still can't see them, so I still have Disadvantage and they still have Advantage. If they're also trying to Hide, I'd negate the Hide itself, but not the Invisibility.
Second, you claim that level 3 is too early to have access to something like this. But the following spells exist:
Alarm
Detect Evil and Good
Detect Magic
See Invisibility
Of those, only See Invisibility is a 2nd level spells. All are accessible by level 3. They might not work the same way as Hellsight, but they do all function similarly, and can, for the most part, accomplish as much or more as the Hellsight ability. For instance, Detect Magic will detect Illusion Magic. It also can be ritual cast, so it won't even use a spell slot...
Third, Hellsight only works on MAGIC that disguises or hides. If something has an innate ability to change themselves or turn invisible (changeling, shapeshifter, doppleganger, Imp, etc) then the ability doesn't work on them, since it isn't magic that's doing it.
Fourth, the ability only lasts 6 seconds per use, and will likely only have 3 (or less) uses per long rest, and it costs an entire action to use it.
And then, fifth, obviously this only really applies in the very specific and niche circumstances in which magic used to hide or disguise is being used. That might come up, what, one maybe two times between level 3 and 6 or so in your average game? It's not exactly something used a whole lot. And when it does come up, I don't exactly see an issue with letting someone playing an Illrigger shine with it.
I feel like you read the ability, and just saw the worst case scenario of how the ability COULD be made, rather than seeing the actual limited mechanics that are present in the ability itself. It honestly is more of a ribbon ability to me, and definitely not nearly as powerful as you make it out to be. A 2nd level Warlock can take an Invocation to at-will cast Detect Magic, and it'll give the Warlock MORE information than an Illrigger gets, as it at least tells you the school of magic used, and gives you an outline of the creature.
*Is not a fan of Evil PCs*
@1:10
Thanks for the warning. Have a wonderful day! Have a like on my way out.
Its worth considering evil pcs, you have to trust whoever is going to play one at the table. But you don't need to trust them anymore than someone playing a good aligned character. If either are played by an asshole you are gonna have a bad time. I think evil characters can be played as long as they don't actively work against the party and ruin fun. Though having someone in the party willing to do anythig and make evil choices can be very fun.
@@MyrddintheBard I suppose. I like to run heroic games. I also am picky about who I let play at my table. Thankfully I've had the good fortune of having enough good friends that I haven't had to accept randoms that I'm not sure I can trust.
@@TuckBolt Yeah i would never suggest that you were playing wrong. Im glad you are having fun with your friends. I like more gritty morally grey games. Alignment is difficult and evil is usually to strong in one direction for believable people. And although the Illrigger is designed as a lawful evil class it doenst have to be played as such. A redemption arc would be fun.