On marked for death. It makes the saving thrown every time it tries to leave your reach. Which it can do once per turn. So it can basically make the throw every turn.
I appreciate it! This seems like something that needs clarification then, because that wording implies it needs to have speed to use to move out of your reach
@@Indestructoboy "It's speed becomes 0 until the start of its next turn". The wording is pretty clear, it get's it's movement back on it's next turn, where if it wants to move it can make the saving throw again.
@@Indestructoboy It's a way to lock an enemy in place and force them to fight the shadowmaster. A slightly odd ability for a medium armour wearer but very useful for locking a caster in place up the back. The combo looks like: Place a seal, teleport next to the caster and make an attack. On the casters turn when they try to move away you lock them down and if they try to attack anyone other than the shadowmaster they have disadvantage.
I have no problem with marked for death. Every turn if you try to get out of its reach you can make a saving throw and the lockdown ends if you succeed. Its actually less powerfull than sentinel.
@@Indestructoboy No problem! Your honest depiction of the class helped me understand with caution. I sent it to my DM because I thought it would be important for him to think about how I'd affect the other players at the group. He actually is pushing me to play as an illrigger and I thought it would be important for him to think about fully before allowing me to. He's very heavy on roleplaying/story telling with more open world consequences involved. You've also brought valid points in order to turns abilities into ways that can benefit everyone at the table. Power gamers hobo killing types of players would scare me using these types of classes. Like you said, I think this type of class should be almost bestowed upon the right types of players in order to carefully approached. I had no idea the class existed until my DM asked me to play as one amd sent it to me in a pdf. I'm thinking of making a character based off the star wars character "starkiller" galen Marek arc from star wars. Seems a proper fit. His intentions would be to use his fellow adventures to fight fire with water in order to defeat evil to climb the ladder. Maybe he turns from lawful evil to lawful neutral along the way based on the story and creating friendships. Or maybe he'll eventually become the big bad for my DM to use against the party? I guess we'll have to wait and see? Haha
Thanks 18:39 True, but if you try to do something like that, this could be the last time your ever going to cast wish. Not to mention all the other draw backs of wish. This feature on the other hand has none. I agree with you Taron on the ''wish fallacy'' being a bad argument but I don't think your counterargument against it is a good one.
2 things are super bad at the latest feature the no save on a hit ! and that ending your turn in a place doesnt shove you out. you can hide under ground raise attack and go down again !!!
the thing about shadowform ability is that you can solo a lich in a few turns but what do you think the lich will be doing that whole time? your putting yourself at huge risk.
Consider that this is a stealth class, with the ability to go invisible. So, they are invisible scouting, see the rich and turn shadowfuorm. Might even be able to use their bonus action Interdiction. Now they rush forward, make 3 attacks, some with advantage. 3d4 is an average of 7.5 strength drain. Lich gets a single turn, while you have cover, multiple resistances, and any attempts to move could be countered by Marked for death. Their only possible action is to teleport and get out of sight. If they do not, then the next turn, bonus action interdiction, flash of brimstone, and two more attacks. 5 more strength drain, Lich is dead. This ability is ridiculously strong.
@@Chaosmancer7 this is just a white room hypothetical. the difference between D&D and a wargame is a DM who is curating the experience, they have plenty of tools to challenge the players and make sure edge case scenarios like this don't happen. for starters the lich isn't going to be alone. so now your are in a room with a boss encounter designed for a full 20th level party. And if we are using the lich for this hypothetical sill than they have other options besides teleporting away. Just as one example the lich has a paralyzing touch ability, if you fail the con saving throw now your out for at least one turn while the whole enemy party unloads on you. We can also assume that the shadowmaster has either a low Int or Wis and there are plenty of spells and abilities that can mess up a character on a failed save. your also not considering that this probably isn't going the be the first encounter so they probably used their invoke authority and depending how much they new about what was coming and what they already fought they might have already used their shadowform
@@goldenTNT101 Sure, that all is reasonable. But that doesn't change the example or why this is so powerful. Paralyzed? Have to hit them first which isn't guarenteed and Illriggers are proficient in Con. So, decent chance of being okay. Room full of enemies? Okay. Well then the illrigger backs up, the party plans and they act as a distraction so the illrigger can solo the boss. Have they been using abilities? Probably. But a single interdiction fot teleport and their single most powerful ability being saved for the boss fight isn't unreasonable. And you don't necessarily need the invisible, I was just giving a "best case" to show how dominating this is.
-Not only do the subclasses get a ton of features (they get 6 compared with most subclasses that get 4), the Baleful Interdict improvements are 3 additional subclass upgrades masquerading as a class feature. That's 9 features for your subclass. The way Baleful Interdict is handled is very interesting. But its not standard class/subclass design and just serves to massively empower the character. This subclass in particular is an example of feature bloat. 4 features at level 3 is un-heard of; All of them powerful. Some subclasses gain 3 at level 3 but usually one is a ribbon ability. -Moloch's Blessing is highly powerful damage-wise. The Fix: you don't expend all Seals on one person but instead place 2 seals on two different people in one bonus action and gain the flash of Brimstone teleport for 1 minute on anyone with a seal and costing a reaction to teleport whenever they attack you or an ally. (Removing Flash of Brimstone as a level 3 feature) -Dagger Adept is stacking several powers into 1 feature. It's further bloat. -Shadowform's Str drain should definitely require a saving throw. IMO both the entire class and the subclasses need a re-write.
I think the Dagger Adept feature is bait. It's anti-synergystic with the rest of the subclass, and the only use it seems to have is if you run out of other features, then you have a somewhat-decent bonus action attack to fall back on. Now, if they had made it a bit more different, then that could've worked. For example - While wielding two daggers or sickles, you can perform a double slice in place of one of your attacks. Roll for an attack once, then roll damage as if you had hit with both weapons. (for example). Or, if you wanna enforce the Bonus Action attack, then change it to something else, like - While wielding two daggers or sickles, you can perform a Bonus Action attack with your off-hand weapon (no Attack Action required). Then you can change one of the Interdicts to be something like - when you strike your target with the Bonus Action attack granted by your Dagger Adept, you can mark the target for free, however, you cannot activate the mark with that attack. There's a few ways you can make it so it works, but how they did it, Dagger Adept is orange to red (on your scale) imo.
I don't think the Insta-death feature of shadowform is all that bad. Sure it can kill something like a Lich 3-4 rounds. But so can a 20th level party of adventurer's focusing on it.
It kills nearly every single creature in the game within three turns, while granting bonus AC and multiple resistances. This character can solo a lot of monsters in the book, which is incredibly broken.
Pink is a placeholder because it seemed like text that was copy pasted over from the shadow, but never clarified whether or not the shadow was or was not under your control. When you’re making character options, you really need to clarify this.
Three or fewer rounds yeah. During which the lich is using its paralyzing touch legendary action on the dude right next to it. And if that goes off at any point, you lose a round of dealing your strength drain damage. So three on average, and it should get atleast 2 of them off to hit you, so that average 3 becomes 5. And since all your damage is necrotic, which it resists, you're gonna be really needing those party members to pull some more slack. Cause once you're paralyzed it's.... finger of death. Plane shift Dominate monster Power word stun power word kill.
Also no problem with the strength drain. You said it takes 4 attacks to solo a lich with strength drain. But as a level 20 character you should be able to kill a lich in 4 attacks. It has an avarage of 135 hitpoints.
@@Indestructoboy that i do get. But since it is a once per long rest feature on a lvl 20 character i think it is manageble. Since you probably only have to do it for 1 or 2 battles
I would say this is probably the worst of the 3 Illrigger subs, with Painkiller being the best. It feels like a strange mix of a Roguish striker type with tanking abilities with it's interdict improvements (aside from the 18th level one). Also I found the stealth improvements odd, unlike rogue Illrigger doesn't excactly benefit much from stealth aside from the normal benefits. The 6th level feature is also very odd, it makes creatures want to attack you but unlike something like Ancestral Guardian Barbarian (which has the same feature basically), you don't have much to help with taking those hits so it's just a fast way to get killed. Their 10th level interdict improvement helps but not that much.
On marked for death. It makes the saving thrown every time it tries to leave your reach. Which it can do once per turn. So it can basically make the throw every turn.
Love the reviews btw!
I appreciate it! This seems like something that needs clarification then, because that wording implies it needs to have speed to use to move out of your reach
@@Indestructoboy "It's speed becomes 0 until the start of its next turn". The wording is pretty clear, it get's it's movement back on it's next turn, where if it wants to move it can make the saving throw again.
Wait a second... then this doesn’t do anything
@@Indestructoboy It's a way to lock an enemy in place and force them to fight the shadowmaster. A slightly odd ability for a medium armour wearer but very useful for locking a caster in place up the back. The combo looks like: Place a seal, teleport next to the caster and make an attack. On the casters turn when they try to move away you lock them down and if they try to attack anyone other than the shadowmaster they have disadvantage.
I have no problem with marked for death. Every turn if you try to get out of its reach you can make a saving throw and the lockdown ends if you succeed. Its actually less powerfull than sentinel.
I love your channel by the way. Definitely deserves more attention.
I appreciate that so much! Stick around, there's plenty more to come!
@@Indestructoboy
No problem! Your honest depiction of the class helped me understand with caution. I sent it to my DM because I thought it would be important for him to think about how I'd affect the other players at the group. He actually is pushing me to play as an illrigger and I thought it would be important for him to think about fully before allowing me to.
He's very heavy on roleplaying/story telling with more open world consequences involved.
You've also brought valid points in order to turns abilities into ways that can benefit everyone at the table. Power gamers hobo killing types of players would scare me using these types of classes. Like you said, I think this type of class should be almost bestowed upon the right types of players in order to carefully approached.
I had no idea the class existed until my DM asked me to play as one amd sent it to me in a pdf.
I'm thinking of making a character based off the star wars character "starkiller" galen Marek arc from star wars. Seems a proper fit. His intentions would be to use his fellow adventures to fight fire with water in order to defeat evil to climb the ladder. Maybe he turns from lawful evil to lawful neutral along the way based on the story and creating friendships. Or maybe he'll eventually become the big bad for my DM to use against the party? I guess we'll have to wait and see? Haha
I think the Strength drain would be okay if it was just once on your turn.
Yeah, I think there's too many ways in which you can gain additional instances of melee attacks to trigger this.
Thanks
18:39 True, but if you try to do something like that, this could be the last time your ever going to cast wish. Not to mention all the other draw backs of wish. This feature on the other hand has none.
I agree with you Taron on the ''wish fallacy'' being a bad argument but I don't think your counterargument against it is a good one.
2 things are super bad at the latest feature
the no save on a hit ! and that ending your turn in a place doesnt shove you out. you can hide under ground raise attack and go down again !!!
the thing about shadowform ability is that you can solo a lich in a few turns but what do you think the lich will be doing that whole time? your putting yourself at huge risk.
So is any other frontline character.
Consider that this is a stealth class, with the ability to go invisible. So, they are invisible scouting, see the rich and turn shadowfuorm. Might even be able to use their bonus action Interdiction.
Now they rush forward, make 3 attacks, some with advantage. 3d4 is an average of 7.5 strength drain. Lich gets a single turn, while you have cover, multiple resistances, and any attempts to move could be countered by Marked for death. Their only possible action is to teleport and get out of sight. If they do not, then the next turn, bonus action interdiction, flash of brimstone, and two more attacks. 5 more strength drain, Lich is dead.
This ability is ridiculously strong.
@@Chaosmancer7 this is just a white room hypothetical. the difference between D&D and a wargame is a DM who is curating the experience, they have plenty of tools to challenge the players and make sure edge case scenarios like this don't happen. for starters the lich isn't going to be alone. so now your are in a room with a boss encounter designed for a full 20th level party. And if we are using the lich for this hypothetical sill than they have other options besides teleporting away. Just as one example the lich has a paralyzing touch ability, if you fail the con saving throw now your out for at least one turn while the whole enemy party unloads on you. We can also assume that the shadowmaster has either a low Int or Wis and there are plenty of spells and abilities that can mess up a character on a failed save. your also not considering that this probably isn't going the be the first encounter so they probably used their invoke authority and depending how much they new about what was coming and what they already fought they might have already used their shadowform
@@goldenTNT101 Sure, that all is reasonable. But that doesn't change the example or why this is so powerful.
Paralyzed? Have to hit them first which isn't guarenteed and Illriggers are proficient in Con. So, decent chance of being okay.
Room full of enemies? Okay. Well then the illrigger backs up, the party plans and they act as a distraction so the illrigger can solo the boss.
Have they been using abilities? Probably. But a single interdiction fot teleport and their single most powerful ability being saved for the boss fight isn't unreasonable. And you don't necessarily need the invisible, I was just giving a "best case" to show how dominating this is.
This class / subclasses seem stupid strong
-Not only do the subclasses get a ton of features (they get 6 compared with most subclasses that get 4), the Baleful Interdict improvements are 3 additional subclass upgrades masquerading as a class feature. That's 9 features for your subclass. The way Baleful Interdict is handled is very interesting. But its not standard class/subclass design and just serves to massively empower the character. This subclass in particular is an example of feature bloat. 4 features at level 3 is un-heard of; All of them powerful. Some subclasses gain 3 at level 3 but usually one is a ribbon ability.
-Moloch's Blessing is highly powerful damage-wise. The Fix: you don't expend all Seals on one person but instead place 2 seals on two different people in one bonus action and gain the flash of Brimstone teleport for 1 minute on anyone with a seal and costing a reaction to teleport whenever they attack you or an ally. (Removing Flash of Brimstone as a level 3 feature)
-Dagger Adept is stacking several powers into 1 feature. It's further bloat.
-Shadowform's Str drain should definitely require a saving throw.
IMO both the entire class and the subclasses need a re-write.
AWESOMENESS
I think the Dagger Adept feature is bait. It's anti-synergystic with the rest of the subclass, and the only use it seems to have is if you run out of other features, then you have a somewhat-decent bonus action attack to fall back on.
Now, if they had made it a bit more different, then that could've worked. For example - While wielding two daggers or sickles, you can perform a double slice in place of one of your attacks. Roll for an attack once, then roll damage as if you had hit with both weapons. (for example). Or, if you wanna enforce the Bonus Action attack, then change it to something else, like - While wielding two daggers or sickles, you can perform a Bonus Action attack with your off-hand weapon (no Attack Action required). Then you can change one of the Interdicts to be something like - when you strike your target with the Bonus Action attack granted by your Dagger Adept, you can mark the target for free, however, you cannot activate the mark with that attack.
There's a few ways you can make it so it works, but how they did it, Dagger Adept is orange to red (on your scale) imo.
I don't think the Insta-death feature of shadowform is all that bad. Sure it can kill something like a Lich 3-4 rounds. But so can a 20th level party of adventurer's focusing on it.
And let's not forget that if you didn't take care of the phylactery that lich is going to come back.
I keep seeing this argument and I'm just scratching my head with it. So it's either a massive, no-save debuff, or clutter on your character sheet?
It kills nearly every single creature in the game within three turns, while granting bonus AC and multiple resistances. This character can solo a lot of monsters in the book, which is incredibly broken.
Why did you highlight the whole "create a Shadow" part in pink ? Seems like a ribbon to me so I would be curious to see how it might be exploited.
Pink is a placeholder because it seemed like text that was copy pasted over from the shadow, but never clarified whether or not the shadow was or was not under your control. When you’re making character options, you really need to clarify this.
Three or fewer rounds yeah.
During which the lich is using its paralyzing touch legendary action on the dude right next to it. And if that goes off at any point, you lose a round of dealing your strength drain damage.
So three on average, and it should get atleast 2 of them off to hit you, so that average 3 becomes 5.
And since all your damage is necrotic, which it resists, you're gonna be really needing those party members to pull some more slack.
Cause once you're paralyzed it's....
finger of death.
Plane shift
Dominate monster
Power word stun
power word kill.
Not counting it's 4 uses of shield and even its uses of dimension door to move around
Also no problem with the strength drain. You said it takes 4 attacks to solo a lich with strength drain. But as a level 20 character you should be able to kill a lich in 4 attacks. It has an avarage of 135 hitpoints.
I’m just not a fan of a feature that requires the DM to have to make all these subtractions from ability scores, attack rolls, and DCs.
@@Indestructoboy that i do get. But since it is a once per long rest feature on a lvl 20 character i think it is manageble. Since you probably only have to do it for 1 or 2 battles
I would say this is probably the worst of the 3 Illrigger subs, with Painkiller being the best. It feels like a strange mix of a Roguish striker type with tanking abilities with it's interdict improvements (aside from the 18th level one). Also I found the stealth improvements odd, unlike rogue Illrigger doesn't excactly benefit much from stealth aside from the normal benefits. The 6th level feature is also very odd, it makes creatures want to attack you but unlike something like Ancestral Guardian Barbarian (which has the same feature basically), you don't have much to help with taking those hits so it's just a fast way to get killed. Their 10th level interdict improvement helps but not that much.