Labor of love. Genuine gift you possess. Finished cymbal with the copper rivets was not only eye appealing, but the change in sound was refreshing. I heard a ride, a crash, and a china. Lord, protect this man's hands and abilities. 🙏 Amen.
Hammertone China 22 was probably the most time spent in workmanship over the Sabian, Canada factory. Was said that it was the hardest cymbal to make by their cymbal smith.
Of course, flipping the flange is something I've considered mechanically, in my years....but the idea of flipping the flange to intentionally change a china into a dirty crash effect 🤯🤯🤯 Intriguing idea....
I'd say that what you've done is turn a china into a pang. I have a Paiste masters swish that has a flat flange and is, in my opinion , misnamed. I also have a paiste 602 22inch china, same B20, but a totally different beast because of its upturned flange. I once had a very rare Zildjian 22 inch pang, brilliant finish Some bastard nicked it. Man, that was a cymbal. As you'll have gathered, I'm something of a fan of this kind of cymbal. I love their challenge and their potential for chaos. Love your cymbals too, though. Ying and yang.
I'm not that fan of the rivet thing, they add less than they trashy the overall sound cutting SPL and decay, but above all I would have kept the re flattened cymbal by perhaps limiting a little and without rivets the long decay and the harshness of the sound. Your first step sounded the best to me and offers a very distinctive, powerful and creative "kinda China" cymbal. You're doing a tough job made of choices with no way back. Kudos in any case, I love even more cymbals thanks to your in-depth expertise.
I dont know if its because i'm a non band home player playing funk/rock/pop but I have always loved smaller cymbals, I like to hit a cymbal It make it's sound and then get out of the way, a 22" china is my worst nightmare. I feel once it's hit I need to leave the room have a cup of tea and come back when its shut up! I don't like this cymbal before or after I have no idea how I would use/play it. I have a a 9" trash splash, two 12" and one 14" china and love there staccato sounds. I'd like to hear the owner play it in context, and still very much enjoyed the video.
Bless You! Since I don’t have a Cymbal endorsement,I have to pay a fortune for cymbals. I have been able to get a “read” on a cymbal by its gram weight,(lighter gram weight,generally deeper in accordance with its circumference ),but even sites that have the exact cymbal that you will purchase (plus it’s gram weight) on demo,it still sounds different with my cymbals & room of course. I purchased brass rivets,steel rivets,and apply them to cymbal as needed,but I’m still working in the dark,if you will. I’ve never taken any classes on cymbal making,or maintenance; I’ve learned by trial and error. I’ve experimented on cheaper cymbals before i touch one of my coveted/cherished K’s, Constantinoples,or Istanbul Mehmets, but that is the reality of my situation. Were you,or are you,an apprentice to a cymbal maker,or did you learn it the way I did - by stumbling along this path?? Do you teach folks how to do this (in person) ,or,just on this channel podcast? Love how this cymbal sounds now,btw! Great inversion!! Where did you buy that tool that shaves off cymbal mass /weight,and what is its name!??!! Thanks for your time!!🙏🎶🥁
I taught myself for the most part, but I also studied with Dave Collingwood (UK based cymbalsmith). The tools all have to be made. I’ve modified/made most of my hammers, anvils, and lathes (the thing that cuts the surface). It’s crazy labor intensive.
this reminds me of a crash of doom. You should check some of those out if you haven't, I have a pretty bad 20" one (it's pretty heavy and doesn't crash very well despite the name), but Eric Harland and Dennis Chambers have some killer ones.
Really interesting work. If you’re moving a band, the original sound would cut through more whereas the final version may get lost. Still, I really enjoy your work. I look forward to more videos. Thank you.
the second version was awesome. It was like a china with ping characteristic's and then would become a gong it pushed hard. I would have stayed with it just being flipped .(The second version)
Yeah I dug it too. It’ll get closer to that version after it has a few months to settle. The drummer needed it to function well in a band context which is why the extra hammering to tighten it up and raise the pitch was necessary. Based off of these demos, I’d agree with about the second version being my favorite.
would you consider working on a sabian b8 plus to do something similar? it doesnt have a drastic flange like this. i have a sabian prototype 20" with a lot of cracks in it that i sanded out, i replaced it with that. its trashy, but i have to hold back when i hit it, i use 2 chinas instead of crashes. looking to mellow it out a bit. if i sent both in to you, maybe you could use the prototype as a frame of reference to get it close to. could be quite an undertaking, but i dig what you do with cymbals.
Unfortunately, B8 is a different animal. While there are guys that mod those and can make them sound nominally better, I've chosen to stay away from them because they don't produce results that justify the effort (to me at least). I stick mostly with B20 for my mods (and some Paiste B12/B15).
Tim, what does putting a patina on and then shaving it off to expose the fresh bronze do? Wouldn’t it just be the same as if there was no patina put on at all? I’m confused by that. Thanks!
I love what u do , I always get a kick out of the transformation, do u have a rock/country/pop line of cymbals that u make yourself? Would be interested in seeing and listening to those. If you have made a video on some you think might match this description let me know I will check it out.
Yes! I definitely do. I post more of my medium thin jazz/acoustic music cymbals mainly because they are harder to make sound great. I LOVE a well made medium/medium heavy set of cymbals. I’ll definitely be posting content focused on those sounds soon!
what would you do if instead of taming the tremolo/ low frequency warble, you wanted to maximize it and get a sound more like extremley flappy cymbals like the hammerax liquicy series?
Yes!!! If that’s what the customer wanted I would’ve loosened the tension even further. The pitch would’ve gone down and it would’ve flapped a lot more.
What's the role of a china cymbal in a drum kit? In my humble opinion, chinas don't have a melodic sound, they just sound like hitting a broken tin sheet. I can undrstand the role of hihats, crashes and rides but chinas go beyond my comprehension. I love the sound of the cymbal after the flipping of the edge.
They are nice for quick, aggressive accents in big bands and other live environments. They also sound great in recordings. I'm with you though, they are not the nicest to play from behind the kit!
So why is he not playing the china flipped the other way. I feel like he’s was playing it upside down instead of how it’s played when you see it on metal drummers kits and such.
It looks like rust and somewhat feels like it but I’ll try it and I used metal polish on them and the brown rust stuff didn’t come off and I’ll try what you suggested
The sabian b8 chinas flip their flanges every time they go in the cymbal bag lol. I'm going to do this to one of them. Won't be nearly as beautiful as this work you did. But it will be a nice trashy crash.
Maybe you could get another one for experimentation, since they're not very expensive. I imagine it would be easier with a pretty big china rather than a small one.
That's not a China cymbal, it's a swish cymbal. China effects cymbals don't have a raised bell. Also, Hamilton uses a swish cymbal that he frequently rides on, not a China cymbal that's just used for crashes.
It can be called either one, just based on the history of the cymbal. Also I’m very aware of Jeff’s playing. He’s been one of my favorites for about 15 yrs now.
interesting!
second "version" of the cymbal is killer. I loved it
Wooow! That's a great sound you got after flipping the flange!
Yeah he can flip my flange any day.
Labor of love. Genuine gift you possess. Finished cymbal with the copper rivets was not only eye appealing, but the change in sound was refreshing. I heard a ride, a crash, and a china. Lord, protect this man's hands and abilities. 🙏 Amen.
Thank you! I try to take great care of my hands cause this work is extremely hard on the joints.
After you flipped that flange, the crash sounded beautiful
That may be the most amazing China cymbal I have ever heard in 50+ years of playing! Kudos.
wow thanks!
The birds in the background are a nice touch. I wonder what they think of the cymbal sounds coming from your place
Really interesting video too :)
Oh I’m sure they’re sick of the noise by now. Haha
Master Craftsman here guys. Really dig your instruments. Be seeing you soon
The sound from a china cymbal I am looking for! I am very happy happy for the customer you mod it for ❤
Once again Tim, a fantastic job! Love it!
Thanks!
Very complex and truly likeable sound! I like it without rivets even better. Amazing job👍🏻
Wow, what a transformation. That's an inspiring sound.
As always, great work Timothy. Loved the flange flipping.
When you flipped the flange down, it turned that baby into a gong. Very cool. :)
Bro just un-china'd his china.
Hammertone China 22 was probably the most time spent in workmanship over the Sabian, Canada factory. Was said that it was the hardest cymbal to make by their cymbal smith.
You’re right! Jeff is very particular about his cymbals being taller which makes them harder to make.
Of course, flipping the flange is something I've considered mechanically, in my years....but the idea of flipping the flange to intentionally change a china into a dirty crash effect 🤯🤯🤯 Intriguing idea....
I'd say that what you've done is turn a china into a pang. I have a Paiste masters swish that has a flat flange and is, in my opinion , misnamed. I also have a paiste 602 22inch china, same B20, but a totally different beast because of its upturned flange. I once had a very rare Zildjian 22 inch pang, brilliant finish Some bastard nicked it. Man, that was a cymbal. As you'll have gathered, I'm something of a fan of this kind of cymbal. I love their challenge and their potential for chaos. Love your cymbals too, though. Ying and yang.
Love this way of describing it.
That's a flippin' awesome outcome. Sounds amazing. 🤙
Yeah, Swish cymbals are my favorite
Before you do the last mod, it sounds like Paiste’s master swish 22 to my ears. Good job!
It sounds like a gong cymbal
Very cool mod !!
I'm not that fan of the rivet thing, they add less than they trashy the overall sound cutting SPL and decay, but above all I would have kept the re flattened cymbal by perhaps limiting a little and without rivets the long decay and the harshness of the sound. Your first step sounded the best to me and offers a very distinctive, powerful and creative "kinda China" cymbal. You're doing a tough job made of choices with no way back. Kudos in any case, I love even more cymbals thanks to your in-depth expertise.
Thank you!
I dont know if its because i'm a non band home player playing funk/rock/pop but I have always loved smaller cymbals, I like to hit a cymbal It make it's sound and then get out of the way, a 22" china is my worst nightmare. I feel once it's hit I need to leave the room have a cup of tea and come back when its shut up! I don't like this cymbal before or after I have no idea how I would use/play it. I have a a 9" trash splash, two 12" and one 14" china and love there staccato sounds. I'd like to hear the owner play it in context, and still very much enjoyed the video.
Gorgeous
Awesome work man
Mastery,Sir
FINALLY someone did it.
You just fixed the cymbal !!!
Great work
turned it into a thin ride jazz would sound so good on it
Wow! Great job. Hope it doesn’t flip back during a ballad 😆
Hahah that would be no bueno!
Bless You! Since I don’t have a Cymbal endorsement,I have to pay a fortune for cymbals. I have been able to get a “read” on a cymbal by its gram weight,(lighter gram weight,generally deeper in accordance with its circumference ),but even sites that have the exact cymbal that you will purchase (plus it’s gram weight) on demo,it still sounds different with my cymbals & room of course. I purchased brass rivets,steel rivets,and apply them to cymbal as needed,but I’m still working in the dark,if you will. I’ve never taken any classes on cymbal making,or maintenance; I’ve learned by trial and error. I’ve experimented on cheaper cymbals before i touch one of my coveted/cherished K’s, Constantinoples,or Istanbul Mehmets, but that is the reality of my situation. Were you,or are you,an apprentice to a cymbal maker,or did you learn it the way I did - by stumbling along this path?? Do you teach folks how to do this (in person) ,or,just on this channel podcast? Love how this cymbal sounds now,btw! Great inversion!!
Where did you buy that tool that shaves off cymbal mass /weight,and what is its name!??!! Thanks for your time!!🙏🎶🥁
I taught myself for the most part, but I also studied with Dave Collingwood (UK based cymbalsmith).
The tools all have to be made. I’ve modified/made most of my hammers, anvils, and lathes (the thing that cuts the surface). It’s crazy labor intensive.
this reminds me of a crash of doom. You should check some of those out if you haven't, I have a pretty bad 20" one (it's pretty heavy and doesn't crash very well despite the name), but Eric Harland and Dennis Chambers have some killer ones.
Yeah those are killer! Eric’s and Dennis’ are certainly really thin ones. Artists always get the best of the bunch.
Really interesting work. If you’re moving a band, the original sound would cut through more whereas the final version may get lost. Still, I really enjoy your work. I look forward to more videos. Thank you.
You’re 100% right!
I think the rivets were a bit much. But the lathed version sounded great.
the second version was awesome. It was like a china with ping characteristic's and then would become a gong it pushed hard. I would have stayed with it just being flipped .(The second version)
Yeah I dug it too. It’ll get closer to that version after it has a few months to settle. The drummer needed it to function well in a band context which is why the extra hammering to tighten it up and raise the pitch was necessary. Based off of these demos, I’d agree with about the second version being my favorite.
I have a 19 inch avedis China high… how can I make brighter, seems kinda too low or dull. Any thoughts?
It really depends on many different factors. It's possible it could be too thin for the "brightness" you're looking for.
Woh! Thats interesting!
Wow! Gets quite Kerope like with that profile.
yeah right?!
would you consider working on a sabian b8 plus to do something similar? it doesnt have a drastic flange like this. i have a sabian prototype 20" with a lot of cracks in it that i sanded out, i replaced it with that. its trashy, but i have to hold back when i hit it, i use 2 chinas instead of crashes. looking to mellow it out a bit. if i sent both in to you, maybe you could use the prototype as a frame of reference to get it close to. could be quite an undertaking, but i dig what you do with cymbals.
Unfortunately, B8 is a different animal. While there are guys that mod those and can make them sound nominally better, I've chosen to stay away from them because they don't produce results that justify the effort (to me at least). I stick mostly with B20 for my mods (and some Paiste B12/B15).
well shoot, now I'm going to make a rudimentary lathe and start ruining all my cymbals.
haha yeah it'll hook you!
Kaboom 💥
Funny cause im actually looking for a crash that sounds similar to how it sounded after you flipped it
Novo China hahaha. I can’t wait to hear it.
Haha nice!
I cut a split cymbal way down and it is about 10” now and can flip back and forth like that
Oh and a lot more interesting and usable with flange up in this case… a mini china crash over a below average splash.
Tim, what does putting a patina on and then shaving it off to expose the fresh bronze do? Wouldn’t it just be the same as if there was no patina put on at all? I’m confused by that. Thanks!
I'm not shaving all of the patina off, just portions of it. It acts like a 1/4 - 1/2 strength patina.
Have you ever modded an Sabian XSR Monarch? I have one that I’ve been thinking about sending you to work on once I can afford it.
I have! Those do great with hammering and lathing. They’re basically big/thin blanks (which is why they sound so dead)
I love what u do , I always get a kick out of the transformation, do u have a rock/country/pop line of cymbals that u make yourself? Would be interested in seeing and listening to those. If you have made a video on some you think might match this description let me know I will check it out.
Yes! I definitely do. I post more of my medium thin jazz/acoustic music cymbals mainly because they are harder to make sound great. I LOVE a well made medium/medium heavy set of cymbals. I’ll definitely be posting content focused on those sounds soon!
🤯🔥
the upward flaiingee
😂
what would you do if instead of taming the tremolo/ low frequency warble, you wanted to maximize it and get a sound more like extremley flappy cymbals like the hammerax liquicy series?
Yes!!! If that’s what the customer wanted I would’ve loosened the tension even further. The pitch would’ve gone down and it would’ve flapped a lot more.
What's the role of a china cymbal in a drum kit? In my humble opinion, chinas don't have a melodic sound, they just sound like hitting a broken tin sheet. I can undrstand the role of hihats, crashes and rides but chinas go beyond my comprehension.
I love the sound of the cymbal after the flipping of the edge.
They are nice for quick, aggressive accents in big bands and other live environments. They also sound great in recordings. I'm with you though, they are not the nicest to play from behind the kit!
@@ReverieDrumCo thanks for taking the time to reply. Very kind of you!
Veri good
So why is he not playing the china flipped the other way. I feel like he’s was playing it upside down instead of how it’s played when you see it on metal drummers kits and such.
Because it's not a China effects type crash cymbal, it's a swish cymbal made for riding on. That's why it has a traditional bell. That IS the top.
This is how jazz drummer play a China/swish that the drummer rides frequently.
How do I get rust off my cymbals
Cymbal bronze doesn’t rust. It oxidizes which can be removed by using brasso, wd-40, and other cleaning solutions.
It looks like rust and somewhat feels like it but I’ll try it and I used metal polish on them and the brown rust stuff didn’t come off and I’ll try what you suggested
Yo I tried it and it only took away a little section could you tell me a method or make a video on how to get it off
@@MaxRiley-up7qy try barkeepers friend and let it sit on the surface for a while. Then use a cloth to buff it off.
Ok
Nice sounding cymbal. But you just combine the word flange with flame?
FLAINGE
My wife has indeed confirmed that I say it very weird.
It reminds me of Sabian HHX china
This is for sale?
No, this was a drummer’s cymbal they sent in for a modification.
I prefer the final without rivets
Sounds like a great trash crash with the flange flipped. 👍🏼. I worry about stability though
The later work I did tightened things up so the stability is fine. The drummer who owns it is a light player too.
flaaaaynge
😂 yeah I deserve that
I've never heard the word "flange" pronounced like that before 💀
Sick mod though
FLAINGE
I just asked my wife if I say it weird and it has been confirmed… I’ve essentially combined “flame” and “mange” to create my own word haha
@@ReverieDrumCo That's so funny 😂 I was wondering if it was just another word us Washingtonians pronounce in a weird way lol
@@creamyhummus no, it’s just a word some southern cymbal weirdo never learned how to say properly. Haha
Now I want one smh
The sabian b8 chinas flip their flanges every time they go in the cymbal bag lol. I'm going to do this to one of them. Won't be nearly as beautiful as this work you did. But it will be a nice trashy crash.
Yeah that should work!
I flipped a Meinl china by smashing the life out of it…it won’t flip back now!!🤔🙂
Did it crack or just flip?
So a crash of doom
Ehhh sort of!
I prefer a low dark swish not a high pitched one
Same!
Do you have a Swish cymbal
you like
@@joshuajuaire8757 I make a swish cymbal with a VERY mild upturn at the edge. It’s much more open than a typical swish and less harsh.
I would do that to my wu-han china, but I'm afraid I'll break it. Ralph Onofrio
Maybe you could get another one for experimentation, since they're not very expensive. I imagine it would be easier with a pretty big china rather than a small one.
Yes, you would almost certainly crack it. Those wuhans are much more brittle and heavily worked.
That's not a China cymbal, it's a swish cymbal. China effects cymbals don't have a raised bell. Also, Hamilton uses a swish cymbal that he frequently rides on, not a China cymbal that's just used for crashes.
It can be called either one, just based on the history of the cymbal. Also I’m very aware of Jeff’s playing. He’s been one of my favorites for about 15 yrs now.
Don't want to ruin those beautiful 420 likes, so here's a comment like 👍❤
Hahah nice!
And you have up side down.
Not for Jazz playing and for riding. This is how jazz drummers have set these up for over 100 years.
Hmmm. Unique. Not for me in any shape or form. I would have loved to see it re-flanged for the final. But verry cool info from this video. Thanks
flaynge? really?
I've been made aware I say it weird... haha
Very interesting but it lost a lot of its chinese character imo
Oh it definitely did! That’s what the customer was wanting for this particular piece.