Dancing brave was an absolute machine of a horse, my favourite horse of all time, the greatest I have ever seen,frankel was a brilliant horse, but dancing brave won at all different distances against top class horses and destroyed them, we will never see the likes of the brave again, different class.
Walter Swinburn said he was going the fastest he had ever travelled on Green Desert in the Guineas and he said this thing went flying past him.. THE BRAVE...
Brilliant, wise words.. Thank you.. The Horse of my lifetime and Always will be.. Astonishing Acceleration.. Just Breathtaking.. What would he have beaten Frankel guineas opponents by? 10 lengths on the bridle.. And then put up Green Dessert again Frankel over the guineas trip.. Yet all they talk about is Frankel guineas.. Against what???
Absolutely, with electrifying acceleration. I had the honour of seeing him race in real life when he won the 2000 guineas in May 1986. The greatest racehorse I've ever seen.
Here's Another little Nugget to Contemplate..Frankel ran as a 4 year old..Dancing Brave was Shipped off to stud after his 3 yr old career ended..So how much more would Dancing Brave have Achieved given another year? And he was a late foal..How anyone can possibly think a horse that won a mile Classic is better than a Horse that beat Multiple Champions in Maybe the Greatest Race of all time (86 Arc) is Beyond me..But We are all entitled to our Opinion..
Graham Monro Without a shadow of doubt the finest racehorse I ever saw. Awesome turn of foot, high cruising speed and easy to settle. Had Starkey got it right, this horse would would have been renamed INVINCIBLE
@@paulregan2881 Watch an interview with Willie Carson on the Derby. He talks about the only year they went slow and "ask Greville". Without a doubt had they gone quick he would have won.
It's quite sad. if you go to Nmkt to Banstead Manor you'll see very little in the way of momento's from Dancing Brave's era. However, this is easily explained by the fact that judmonte is a breeding operation. of course Mr Abdullah will say Fankel's the best, as he's a home bred. Dancing Brave wasn't. Imo Dancing Brave was a more complete racehorse, but I don't want to rubbish an equine superstar like Frankel, who was phenomenal.
Its great the way people still talk about dancing brave and rightly so he's 86 arc has to be greatest performance or a 3 year old of all time the field of horses he destroyed that day is what makes it the best arc of all time.
Absolutely friend, what he done to a high quality field in the Arc was jaw dropping & he had it won half a furlong out. Yeah strong field with 4 Derby winners & 18 G1's between them. Dancing Brave was my favourite flat horse & backed in all his races apart from his maiden which I didn't know about. But to be fair/honest Sea Bird Arc was the strongest Arc EVER assembled friend &:I really wish it was Dancing Brave Arc BUT it was the best one to watch & I remember Gary Moore said he was confident his mount Bering would win 😂😂 OOPS!!
A very great horse who should never have run in the Breeders Cup. I've great respect for Mr Abdullah but there"s no doubt in my mind that had he kept this horse in training he would have become a racing legend like Frankel
Something we will never know as Frankel never met an opponent within 3 stone that Dancing Brave did which always made him look more impressive than he was
In the argument over which colt was superior, Dancing Brave or Frankel, there's a comment on here that mentions Frankel beat horses such as St. Nicholas Abbey and Canford Cliffs. St. Nicholas Abbey and Canford Cliffs ! ! Are we supposed to take comments and comparisons like that seriously?? You may as well say Frankel beat selling platers too.
@Boris The Blade With all due respect the Coronation Cup at Epsom over one and half miles has hardly ever been a hotly contested race, three to five runners at most - usually trainers use it as an easy pickings event to get group one status for their charges who did not have the necessary quality to win the big and prestigious group ones at Newmarket, Ascot, York, Goodwood and Longchamp.
@@colintipton1740 You may have heard of multiple group one winners such as Triptych (series of group 1 victories spanning 4 years over various distances across Europe), Bering, Shahrastani (double derby winner), Petoski (1985 King George and Queen Elizabeth stakes) and Shardari: all beaten comprehensively by Dancing Brave Are you seriously suggesting that Canford Cliffs would have had any chance with horses of that calbre ? Nobody is suggesting that Frankel was anything less than brilliant - he beat anything and everything that was lined up against him easily, but Dancing Brave raced against far superior opposition than Frankel ever did. DB would have more than been his match over a mile whereas Frankel wouldn't have matched Dancing Brave over mid-distance trips.
@@mediastarguest is that Triptych who got hammered by oh so sharp in the oaks? Are you seriosly comparing Petoski Bering Shadari and Shahrastani to SNA and excelerbration and canford cliffs? lmao go and learn how to read form and then come back and apologise
@@colintipton1740 Excelebration and Canford Cliffs are bang average. @mediastarguest is right, Bering, Sharastani were certainly a lot better thant SNA. You need to read the form
A Plane! you could tell the late great Sir Peter wasn't ad libbing, he probably ran those phrases through his mind before the race , those were the days , along with Jimmy believe you me walters got lovely hands Lindley :)) Dancing Brave MAGNIFICENT watch him quicken
+Graham Monro Really? Frankel beat some truly great horses at both 8f & 10f & his turn of foot was equally effortless. Brave was himself a truly great horse but Frankel had that little bit extra.
Dancing brave & El gran senor beat Far Superior opposition..Who remembers the runner up to Frankel in guineas? They were all Handicappers..Frankel didn't even stay a mile & a half..Respect your opinion but we will never know who was best..But the brave & senor beat Significantly Superior opposition..
+Graham Monro If Frankel had won the 2000 Guineas in a photo finish then you might have a point but he absolutely annihilated the field, the field that included runners that then went on the finish 1st and 2nd in the Irish 2000 later on. The list of runners to finish behind Frankel was a who's who of multiple Gr1 winners in multiple countries, both before and after being beaten by Frankel and how do you know he didn't stay a mile and a half if he never tried? Did he look like he merely fell over the line in the 10f Juddmonte? His jockey was quoted as saying it took him another 2f to pull up and that was despite being an eased down 7L winner with the jockey looking up at the big screens to see how far clear he was from a pair of multiple Gr1 winners in 2nd and 3rd. If Frankel had been kept at a mile, wouldn't you have been saying he didn't even get 10f? Both Dancing Brave and Frankel were favourites of mine and I really wouldn't like to say which one was better.
The Brave can be spoken of in the same breath as Frankel. El Gran Señor definitely not. EGS beat a fantastic miler in Chief Singer but the Singer was not at his best until mid-summer and got a terrible start in the Guineas. Not at all sure EGS would have beaten him in the St James Palace. EGS looked unimpressive after the Guineas. Dancing Brave was stunning after the Guineas. But over a mile and probably 10F Brigadier Gerard takes pride of place i.m.o
ubermensch you confuse quantity with Quality...Canford cliffs was third in a non description 2000 guineas..Any old selling plater can win a group 1 these days...Who remembers the 2nd & 3rd in Frankels guineas??? nobody...And they were catching him hand over fist..Look at his times in last 2 furlongs & then look at the braves last 2 furlongs..Dancing brave would have picked him off with ease..And then there's El gran senor & his guineas..Frankel couldn't live with them over a mile..And what did Frankel do in the Arc??? oh that's right ! he didn't run beyond 12f..Because he didn't stay...Everything's always the best these days..Well you are talking bullshit...Ask most people over 40 & they will tell you dancing brave over Frankel all day long...Lester piggot has Frankel down as being the 3rd greatest horse ever but that's still Way too generous...Go look at the races from past decades...racing didn't start with Frankel :-)
Bro, I respect your racing knowledge, but Frankel really is the best miler who ever lived, and most likely the best horse to grace a racetrack.. His Queen Anne and Juddmonte where rated 147 by Timeform - the highest of all time. The horses he beat would have been Champions in any other year (Excelebration, Farhh, St Nicholas Abbey, Cirrus Des Aigles - all rated in the 130's) and Frankel made them look ordinary (maybe not Cirrus but he got out and lost lengths at the start, and the ground was much too soft) .. No horse in history has form to back up his claim to the Pound for Pound throne like Frankel does.. and even long after he retired horses where Franking the form (Farhh in the Lockinge - defeating a Queen Anne/Juddmonte/Breeders Cup Classic 3rd - Farhh in the Champion Stakes - Cirrus Des Aigles defeating Treve - maybe the greatest filly ever - and the list goes on - the form is unreal :) Btw I see Dancing Brave had his rating re-vised to 136, and his Arc valued at 132.. and I've seen many experts explain how the ratings back in his day where slightly over-the-top.. the best horse who never had his rating altered was Sea Bird - the only horse I wouldn't argue is better than Frankel. Over a mile, Frankel vs Brigadier Gerard would have been a hell of a race - there's just 3lb between them.. and while BG would have undoubtedly reeled Frankel in if he happened to be in his Guiuneas - none of BG performances come close to Frankels Queen Anne - possibly the greatest performance ever witnessed.
Lee SOG As much as I respect timeform, everything they say is only opinion & not statements of fact. They can rate whatever horse at whatever rating, it's only their opinion. The one thing that I've learned over many years of racing is that horses make fools of us & unless horses actually run against each other then it's absolutely impossible to say which is/was the best.
Formula1Madx That is a good point. There's probably loads of horses, across generations, who we'd back to beat the other, and be surprised by the outcome. There's no way of saying with absolute certainly whether say, Sea Bird would hand Ribot his first defeat (Timeform say he would, by 1 1/2 lengths) ..but using Times (historically, for each racecourse, under every condition recorded) and Form (the horses in behind, and what they achieved before and after) one comes to a strong conclusion (a "more than likely" scenario) that one horse was superior to the other - at least in terms of what they achieved on a racecourse - I say that because, with advancements in technology, training methods, better jockeys (perhaps).. who knows if a horse rated 130 in the 60's, would be 140+ today - and who knows the true worth of a horse like Sea The Stars who only does enough, and depends on strong competition to bring the best out in him - but working with what we have, at least those of yesterday are equally, if not more, exalted as those of today. Of the 12 horses rated 140+ with Timeform (excluding those on Dirt prior to 1989) only 3 where born this century, one in the 90's, and 8 prior to 1970.
dancing brave and el gran senor both raced against totally different class opposition to what frankel ,dancing braves arc and rl gran senors guineas possibly the 2 best races ever class/form wise
We will have to Disagree on this...Dancing Brave was supposedly best at coming off a fast pace..Which he did to beat the Finest of Arc Fields, containing Multiple Champions..Real Champions, not what Frankel Beat..And The braves Guineas was one of the Slowest Ever..So to Quicken like he did to Destroy Green Desert the next seasons Champion Sprinter was Awesome...This Was a Truly Golden Age for Champions both Colts & Fillies..Not only that...Frankel won a weak 2000 guineas..Even Sea the Stars won the Guineas & Derby..Then the Arc De Triomphe, which is the best Horse Race in the World bar none...
as an aside, Dancing Brave was returned at "no offers" in this race....i had a 5 grand double, i included Dancing Brave to pay the tax on my bet...lol but did not take the price on offer in the morning...1/10 i think...the other horse won too..
How many G1 horses did Frankel beat? Quite a few. Reckless at best to dismiss them. Equally silly to say he won a ‘weak’ Guineas field without acknowledging that the field was beaten by some margin in that race.
@@MyCharlesgreen Yeah, Alex and Criquette Head were full of BS. Couldn't accept their champion got slaughtered. He did get an injury in the final furlong or two, but clearly didn't affect him significantly as he still finished 2nd. He ran his best race imo, no way he outkicks DB with or without an injury
That must've been the absolute certainty bet of a lifetime that day.. nice to see the old colours of lord Howard de Walden in that race..being a Kilmarnock man myself. Dancing brave horse of a century pity sold of to Japan..
Was this before the Derby as a prep race? It's also a shame that Starkey got him beat in the Derby giving Sharastani at least 10 lengths start in the epsom straight
If memory serves me well this race was declared void on the betting side of things because he was such a certainty to win.In those days tax was paid on betting and there was no way you could win on your stakes.Correct me if I am wrong.
Mr Abdullah no disrespect, was caught up in the moment. D b the best bar none . U don't have to be unbeaten to be the best. Look at Muhammad Ali. Enough said.
And Henry Cecil Trained Frankel & said that Bosra sham was the best he had trained up until Frankel..He soon changed his mind & said Oh so sharp & Ardross were the best he had trained before Frankel... Johnny come lately or what ?? You guys probably think Raving started with Frankel...As for the his victims in the guineas! who remembers them ? A couple of selling platers who gave him a 15 length start & were closing him down in the end..There are 2 Horses alone that would have beaten Frankel in the 1984 Guineas..Frankel couldn't quicken like that & he wouldn't have won dancing braves 86 Arc even if he had stayed..A Sublime effort against the most Star Studded field assembled ever in the Arc...
+sleeplessinsale Sorry, but that's bullshit. Horses beaten by Frankel have accumulated 60 Group 1s between them. 60 Group 1s for goodness sake. In addition to Excelebration, there's been Canford Cliffs, Cirrus Des Aigles, Dream Ahead, St Nicholas Abbey, Farhh, Nathaniel, Twice Over, Dick Turpin, Immortal Verse, Treasure Beach among others. No discernable quality lol!
Prince Khalid Abdullah is adamant that Frankel was better than Dancing Brave . He owned both of them . In fact , when interviewed just after Frankel had beaten Canford Cliffs at Goodwood , he said that Frankel was the best he'd ever had.
That's just his opinion, Dick Earn said Nashwan was the best he ever trained, but many would argue Brigadier Gerard was the best Dick Earn ever trained, time erodes judgment.
In an in depth interview some years ago , Pat Eddery said that Dancing Brave was the best horse he had ever ridden , although he added that Derby winner , Golden Fleece , was a horse who had the potential to have become the best of them aĺl , had he not been retired early . However , the day after Frankel won his first Sussex Stakes , Pat Eddery was asked his views on Frankel and how he ranked alongside the likes of Dancing Brave . Eddery said that he ( Frankel ) was a freak , adding that the Sir Henry Cecil colt was undoubtedly the best 3 year old he had ever seen .
Agreed jsilkcut I've been watching horse racing for 50 years. In that time there have been great horses :- Mill Reef, Brigadier Gerard, Dancing Brave, Frankel, Sea The Stars, Zarcava, Enable but IMO for sheer class and poetry in motion it's Nijinsky (to this day I still think he SHOULD have won the 1970 Arc)
@@stevo62ful I was born in 1957. The exploits of two greats like Sea Bird and Ribot are just a bit before my time (as a lover of horse racing), which is why I left them out of my list.
I was watching Hagler v Hearns today, same era, the four kings. Took me back to this, the king of kings. Even after all these years still the best I’ve ever seen
@@EddieCr . Ok Eddie, it's always nice to hear everyones opinion and that's what makes horses racing what it is. Although im a brit I have great admiration for the US jockeys,as their riding style really seems to make the horse go. Thanks for the post, kind regards.
Seeker 57 why did,nt manilla run in the arc ? I,ll tell you why he would,nt have passed the drug test lasix and God know,s what else in system, dancing brave was the first one beat in that race he was over the top simple as that.
Respect your opinion but the Quality of Horse that the Brave beat was far superior..You really think Frankel would have won El gran senors Guineas? ?? Not a Scooby
+Graham Monro You'll excuse me if I take the opinion of the owner of both horses above yours. Prince Khalid clearly think of Frankel as the best he's ever owned (i.e. better than Dancing Brave and Zafonic even though I do love both of these too).
Übermensch Why would the owner of horses know any more than the rest of us. He's not a jockey. The only evidence he's got to go on is his own eyes just like the rest of us so his opinion is only of equal value to anyone else's.
@@ubermensch3179 Well, DB and Zafonic were both dead, whilst Frankel was very much alive and would, in due course, be going to stud, so what would you expect him to say.
i had a 5 grand double, dancing brave and all haste at 5/6, backed dancing brave to pay for the 500 quid tax on my bet... dancing brave returned at "no offers", was not happy.
Absolutely 💯 but l think see the stars would have beaten both best 🐴 horse l have seen in my lifetime and l have seen Frankel running live in ascot sea the stars could quicken twice in a race that's very rare in any racehorse mick kinane said best horse he ever rode and rode the best horses in the world 🌎
Respect your opinion but the Quality of Horse that the Brave beat was far superior..You really think Frankel would have won El gran senors Guineas? ?? Not a Scooby
@@colintipton1740 No way Frankel would have beaten the mighty Dancing Brave. I saw both horses race and Dancing Brave would have beaten Frankel. His acceleration and cruising speed would have eventually caught and overtaken Frankel. I love both horses but Dancing Brave was the more complete racehorse and had more range.
Respect your opinion but the Quality of Horse that the Brave beat was far superior..You really think Frankel would have won El gran senors Guineas? ?? Not a Scooby
Respect your opinion but the Quality of Horse that the Brave beat was far superior..You really think Frankel would have won El gran senors Guineas? ?? Not a Scooby
Respect your opinion but the Quality of Horse that the Brave beat was far superior..You really think Frankel would have won El gran senors Guineas? ?? Not a Scooby
Respect your opinion but the Quality of Horse that the Brave beat was far superior..You really think Frankel would have won El gran senors Guineas? ?? Not a Scooby
Pretty sure they were, 1-7 is my recollection. At this point he wasn’t widely regarded as a champion, 2nd Derby and plenty questioned his King George win.
Thanks for posting this. I used to dislike Starkey with a passion. Never mind how he lost the Derby through incompetent riding, I remember him winning on Sackville at Kempton and looking though his legs at the opposition. Clown! Thank goodness he wasn't aboard in the Arc.
I am / was fans of all these end of season champions, ihmo El Gran Senor beat one of the best 2000 Guineas fields since Brigadeer Gerard, and over 10 furlongs would have beaten Dancing brave.
@@keithwills3790 anything further than 10 furlongs and i would have to favour Dancing Brave over El Gran Senor, but over 8 and 10 furlongs El Gran Senor had electric turn of foot, Dancing brave took several strides to reach top gear. Also what was the best English or Irish horse Dancing Brave beat ? Shahrastani beat a poor field after epsom in Irish Derby and never won again. In guineas El Gran Senor beat Chief Singer...St James Palace and July Cup and Sussex stakes winner, lear Fan was a distant 3rd, went on to win Prix Jacques le malior and very distant 4th Rainbow Quest won the Arc, Green Desert, runner up to Dancing Brave was beaten in irish guineas and st james palace stakes, but won Jukly cup and haydock park sprint, nothing else in guineas won a decent race.
@@pauladams1924 Don't have a problem with anything you say.. But.. I'll go with Pat Eddery.. It flew past 4 Derby winners in the Arc and the champion filly Tryptich.. Swinburn was quoted as saying in the Guineas on Green Desert he had never travelled so fast into the dip on a horse in his life.. And suddenly this thing flew past him with Starkey giving his legendary bark.. El Gra Senor was a marvellous horse!. But as I say opinions. Wee story about that horse. Robert Sangster offered Eddery a share in either Sadler's Wells or El Gran Senor.. Pat chose Senor. He said he picked the only Gay horse at stud... What a jockey..RIP🇮🇪☘
I disagree. As much as I love Frankel, Dancing Brave's acceleration would have eventually caught and overtaken Frankel. Look at the calibre of horses he beat in 1986 and the style in which he achieved this. In my opinion there's no comparison as Frankel's rivals were not in the same class as Dancing Brave's.
Dancing brave was an absolute machine of a horse, my favourite horse of all time, the greatest I have ever seen,frankel was a brilliant horse, but dancing brave won at all different distances against top class horses and destroyed them, we will never see the likes of the brave again, different class.
Walter Swinburn said he was going the fastest he had ever travelled on Green Desert in the Guineas and he said this thing went flying past him..
THE BRAVE...
True
@Stephen Small DEBETABLE
@Stephen Small DEBETABLE
@Stephen Small When Seabird won the Derby I can't see either one beating him.
This is and was a horse of a lifetime
If you don’t love him then don’t watch horse racing.
Brilliant, wise words.. Thank you.. The Horse of my lifetime and Always will be.. Astonishing Acceleration.. Just Breathtaking.. What would he have beaten Frankel guineas opponents by? 10 lengths on the bridle.. And then put up Green Dessert again Frankel over the guineas trip.. Yet all they talk about is Frankel guineas.. Against what???
The best flat horse I've had the pleasure of ever seeing, a TRUE CHAMPION
Not an expert by any means- i would love to have seen the brave against the stars
What a race that wouldve been
What a horse he was! His excelleration was incredible could have been a champion sprinter as well with that speed.
Dancing brave was the greatest...poetry in motion
Absolutely, with electrifying acceleration. I had the honour of seeing him race in real life when he won the 2000 guineas in May 1986. The greatest racehorse I've ever seen.
The way he quickened in the last furlong was nothing short of breathtaking, not many horses can quicken like that
Dayur was the quickest horse over 5/6 furlongs ever
@@darrensmith4279 Certainly over 5, less so over 6.
Broke the track record and he was easing up as well
Watching the 86 arc and seeing him destroy 1 of the best fields ever gathered, always gives me goosebumps every time, wat a horse ❤
I had forgotten just how powerful a horse DB was .... magic !
Here's Another little Nugget to Contemplate..Frankel ran as a 4 year old..Dancing Brave was Shipped off to stud after his 3 yr old career ended..So how much more would Dancing Brave have Achieved given another year? And he was a late foal..How anyone can possibly think a horse that won a mile Classic is better than a Horse that beat Multiple Champions in Maybe the Greatest Race of all time (86 Arc) is Beyond me..But We are all entitled to our Opinion..
Graham Monro
Without a shadow of doubt the finest racehorse I ever saw. Awesome turn of foot, high cruising speed and easy to settle. Had Starkey got it right, this horse would would have been renamed INVINCIBLE
Totally agree Graham, I’ve been interested in racing for 50 years and I’ve never seen anything like him and unfortunately probably never will again
@@paulregan2881 Watch an interview with Willie Carson on the Derby. He talks about the only year they went slow and "ask Greville". Without a doubt had they gone quick he would have won.
It's quite sad. if you go to Nmkt to Banstead Manor you'll see very little in the way of momento's from Dancing Brave's era. However, this is easily explained by the fact that judmonte is a breeding operation. of course Mr Abdullah will say Fankel's the best, as he's a home bred. Dancing Brave wasn't. Imo Dancing Brave was a more complete racehorse, but I don't want to rubbish an equine superstar like Frankel, who was phenomenal.
The best horse bar none!
Totally agree
Talking about putting on a show!
Its great the way people still talk about dancing brave and rightly so he's 86 arc has to be greatest performance or a 3 year old of all time the field of horses he destroyed that day is what makes it the best arc of all time.
Absolutely friend, what he done to a high quality field in the Arc was jaw dropping & he had it won half a furlong out. Yeah strong field with 4 Derby winners & 18 G1's between them. Dancing Brave was my favourite flat horse & backed in all his races apart from his maiden which I didn't know about. But to be fair/honest Sea Bird Arc was the strongest Arc EVER assembled friend &:I really wish it was Dancing Brave Arc BUT it was the best one to watch & I remember Gary Moore said he was confident his mount Bering would win 😂😂 OOPS!!
A very great horse who should never have run in the Breeders Cup. I've great respect for Mr Abdullah but there"s no doubt in my mind that had he kept this horse in training he would have become a racing legend like Frankel
Dancing Brave is a far bigger legend than Frankel to a different generation like myself. I don't see Frankel as a legend at all.
@@pauldonohoe3646 hahahahahahahahhahahahaha. What part of ireland are you from?
@@colintipton1740 I fail to see the relevance of that question but I assume you'll let me know.
its an intelligence thing so you wont get it
@@colintipton1740 I presumed wrong
Something we will never know as Frankel never met an opponent within 3 stone that Dancing Brave did which always made him look more impressive than he was
i think the owners of Fahr and St Nicholas abbey would disagree, not to mention Nathaniel and Cirrus Des Aigles
In the argument over which colt was superior, Dancing Brave or Frankel, there's a comment on here that mentions Frankel beat horses such as St. Nicholas Abbey and Canford Cliffs. St. Nicholas Abbey and Canford Cliffs ! ! Are we supposed to take comments and comparisons like that seriously?? You may as well say Frankel beat selling platers too.
@Boris The Blade With all due respect the Coronation Cup at Epsom over one and half miles has hardly ever been a hotly contested race, three to five runners at most - usually trainers use it as an easy pickings event to get group one status for their charges who did not have the necessary quality to win the big and prestigious group ones at Newmarket, Ascot, York, Goodwood and Longchamp.
@@mediastarguest and what did Dancing Brave beat that were as good as Frankels list? nothing no where near
@@colintipton1740 You may have heard of multiple group one winners such as Triptych (series of group 1 victories spanning 4 years over various distances across Europe), Bering, Shahrastani (double derby winner), Petoski (1985 King George and Queen Elizabeth stakes) and Shardari: all beaten comprehensively by Dancing Brave Are you seriously suggesting that Canford Cliffs would have had any chance with horses of that calbre ? Nobody is suggesting that Frankel was anything less than brilliant - he beat anything and everything that was lined up against him easily, but Dancing Brave raced against far superior opposition than Frankel ever did. DB would have more than been his match over a mile whereas Frankel wouldn't have matched Dancing Brave over mid-distance trips.
@@mediastarguest is that Triptych who got hammered by oh so sharp in the oaks? Are you seriosly comparing Petoski Bering Shadari and Shahrastani to SNA and excelerbration and canford cliffs? lmao go and learn how to read form and then come back and apologise
@@colintipton1740 Excelebration and Canford Cliffs are bang average. @mediastarguest is right, Bering, Sharastani were certainly a lot better thant SNA. You need to read the form
Yes, Dancing Brave on the Flat and Desert Orchid in NH racing. What a year that was!
A Plane! you could tell the late great Sir Peter wasn't ad libbing, he probably ran those phrases through his mind before the race , those were the days , along with Jimmy believe you me walters got lovely hands Lindley :)) Dancing Brave MAGNIFICENT watch him quicken
Better the Frankel for sure..An Electric & Instant turn of Foot...
The best we've ever seen. Made up 20 lengths in the Derby to lose by half a length because of the worst jockey we've ever seen.
Better the Frankel for sure..An Electric & Instant turn of Foot...
+Graham Monro Really? Frankel beat some truly great horses at both 8f & 10f & his turn of foot was equally effortless. Brave was himself a truly great horse but Frankel had that little bit extra.
Dancing brave & El gran senor both superior.
Dancing brave & El gran senor beat Far Superior opposition..Who remembers the runner up to Frankel in guineas? They were all Handicappers..Frankel didn't even stay a mile & a half..Respect your opinion but we will never know who was best..But the brave & senor beat Significantly Superior opposition..
+Graham Monro If Frankel had won the 2000 Guineas in a photo finish then you might have a point but he absolutely annihilated the field, the field that included runners that then went on the finish 1st and 2nd in the Irish 2000 later on.
The list of runners to finish behind Frankel was a who's who of multiple Gr1 winners in multiple countries, both before and after being beaten by Frankel and how do you know he didn't stay a mile and a half if he never tried? Did he look like he merely fell over the line in the 10f Juddmonte?
His jockey was quoted as saying it took him another 2f to pull up and that was despite being an eased down 7L winner with the jockey looking up at the big screens to see how far clear he was from a pair of multiple Gr1 winners in 2nd and 3rd. If Frankel had been kept at a mile, wouldn't you have been saying he didn't even get 10f?
Both Dancing Brave and Frankel were favourites of mine and I really wouldn't like to say which one was better.
The Brave can be spoken of in the same breath as Frankel. El Gran Señor definitely not. EGS beat a fantastic miler in Chief Singer but the Singer was not at his best until mid-summer and got a terrible start in the Guineas. Not at all sure EGS would have beaten him in the St James Palace. EGS looked unimpressive after the Guineas. Dancing Brave was stunning after the Guineas. But over a mile and probably 10F Brigadier Gerard takes pride of place i.m.o
Guy Harwood, genius trainer.
Nice training canter.
ubermensch you confuse quantity with Quality...Canford cliffs was third in a non description 2000 guineas..Any old selling plater can win a group 1 these days...Who remembers the 2nd & 3rd in Frankels guineas??? nobody...And they were catching him hand over fist..Look at his times in last 2 furlongs & then look at the braves last 2 furlongs..Dancing brave would have picked him off with ease..And then there's El gran senor & his guineas..Frankel couldn't live with them over a mile..And what did Frankel do in the Arc??? oh that's right ! he didn't run beyond 12f..Because he didn't stay...Everything's always the best these days..Well you are talking bullshit...Ask most people over 40 & they will tell you dancing brave over Frankel all day long...Lester piggot has Frankel down as being the 3rd greatest horse ever but that's still Way too generous...Go look at the races from past decades...racing didn't start with Frankel :-)
Bro, I respect your racing knowledge, but Frankel really is the best miler who ever lived, and most likely the best horse to grace a racetrack.. His Queen Anne and Juddmonte where rated 147 by Timeform - the highest of all time. The horses he beat would have been Champions in any other year (Excelebration, Farhh, St Nicholas Abbey, Cirrus Des Aigles - all rated in the 130's) and Frankel made them look ordinary (maybe not Cirrus but he got out and lost lengths at the start, and the ground was much too soft) .. No horse in history has form to back up his claim to the Pound for Pound throne like Frankel does.. and even long after he retired horses where Franking the form (Farhh in the Lockinge - defeating a Queen Anne/Juddmonte/Breeders Cup Classic 3rd - Farhh in the Champion Stakes - Cirrus Des Aigles defeating Treve - maybe the greatest filly ever - and the list goes on - the form is unreal :)
Btw I see Dancing Brave had his rating re-vised to 136, and his Arc valued at 132.. and I've seen many experts explain how the ratings back in his day where slightly over-the-top.. the best horse who never had his rating altered was Sea Bird - the only horse I wouldn't argue is better than Frankel.
Over a mile, Frankel vs Brigadier Gerard would have been a hell of a race - there's just 3lb between them.. and while BG would have undoubtedly reeled Frankel in if he happened to be in his Guiuneas - none of BG performances come close to Frankels Queen Anne - possibly the greatest performance ever witnessed.
Lee SOG As much as I respect timeform, everything they say is only opinion & not statements of fact. They can rate whatever horse at whatever rating, it's only their opinion. The one thing that I've learned over many years of racing is that horses make fools of us & unless horses actually run against each other then it's absolutely impossible to say which is/was the best.
Formula1Madx That is a good point. There's probably loads of horses, across generations, who we'd back to beat the other, and be surprised by the outcome. There's no way of saying with absolute certainly whether say, Sea Bird would hand Ribot his first defeat (Timeform say he would, by 1 1/2 lengths) ..but using Times (historically, for each racecourse, under every condition recorded) and Form (the horses in behind, and what they achieved before and after) one comes to a strong conclusion (a "more than likely" scenario) that one horse was superior to the other - at least in terms of what they achieved on a racecourse - I say that because, with advancements in technology, training methods, better jockeys (perhaps).. who knows if a horse rated 130 in the 60's, would be 140+ today - and who knows the true worth of a horse like Sea The Stars who only does enough, and depends on strong competition to bring the best out in him - but working with what we have, at least those of yesterday are equally, if not more, exalted as those of today. Of the 12 horses rated 140+ with Timeform (excluding those on Dirt prior to 1989) only 3 where born this century, one in the 90's, and 8 prior to 1970.
dancing brave and el gran senor both raced against totally different class opposition to what frankel ,dancing braves arc and rl gran senors guineas possibly the 2 best races ever class/form wise
We will have to Disagree on this...Dancing Brave was supposedly best at coming off a fast pace..Which he did to beat the Finest of Arc Fields, containing Multiple Champions..Real Champions, not what Frankel Beat..And The braves Guineas was one of the Slowest Ever..So to Quicken like he did to Destroy Green Desert the next seasons Champion Sprinter was Awesome...This Was a Truly Golden Age for Champions both Colts & Fillies..Not only that...Frankel won a weak 2000 guineas..Even Sea the Stars won the Guineas & Derby..Then the Arc De Triomphe, which is the best Horse Race in the World bar none...
the french horse in the arc was injured during the race...they are adamant they would have beaten Dancing Brave but for the injury.
as an aside, Dancing Brave was returned at "no offers" in this race....i had a 5 grand double, i included Dancing Brave to pay the tax on my bet...lol but did not take the price on offer in the morning...1/10 i think...the other horse won too..
How many G1 horses did Frankel beat? Quite a few. Reckless at best to dismiss them. Equally silly to say he won a ‘weak’ Guineas field without acknowledging that the field was beaten by some margin in that race.
@@andylea2377 DB used to pass everything in the home straight, not look to win by some margin. Using your logic Slip Anchor is better,
@@MyCharlesgreen Yeah, Alex and Criquette Head were full of BS. Couldn't accept their champion got slaughtered. He did get an injury in the final furlong or two, but clearly didn't affect him significantly as he still finished 2nd. He ran his best race imo, no way he outkicks DB with or without an injury
just watched Frankel and then Dancing Brave-Brave looked better at Goodwood
That must've been the absolute certainty bet of a lifetime that day.. nice to see the old colours of lord Howard de Walden in that race..being a Kilmarnock man myself. Dancing brave horse of a century pity sold of to Japan..
wow
And still 4 dislikers ??? Is watching great horses in action really THAT subjective ?? I'm slightly puzzled i must say !!
Four dummies
Was this before the Derby as a prep race? It's also a shame that Starkey got him beat in the Derby giving Sharastani at least 10 lengths start in the epsom straight
It was after
If memory serves me well this race was declared void on the betting side of things because he was such a certainty to win.In those days tax was paid on betting and there was no way you could win on your stakes.Correct me if I am wrong.
The Greatest...
Nice warm up before that never to be forgotten Arc victory.
Top Horse, One of the Greats but what a strange prep for the Arc, would have loved to see him go to the York (Juddmonte) Meeting.
easy race against horses 2 stone below him that's why. Why risk burning him out when he had already given so much the big prize was still to come.
Mr Abdullah no disrespect, was caught up in the moment. D b the best bar none . U don't have to be unbeaten to be the best. Look at Muhammad Ali. Enough said.
ridiculous
Why on earth did they employ that stupid strategy at the Derby. Left the poor horse with too much to do and still he nearly won.
If Dancing Brave hadn't run in the Arc they'd be debating whether Bering was better than Sea Bird.
Better the Frankel for sure..An Electric & Instant turn of Foot...
And Henry Cecil Trained Frankel & said that Bosra sham was the best he had trained up until Frankel..He soon changed his mind & said Oh so sharp & Ardross were the best he had trained before Frankel...
Johnny come lately or what ?? You guys probably think Raving started with Frankel...As for the his victims in the guineas! who remembers them ? A couple of selling platers who gave him a 15 length start & were closing him down in the end..There are 2 Horses alone that would have beaten Frankel in the 1984 Guineas..Frankel couldn't quicken like that & he wouldn't have won dancing braves 86 Arc even if he had stayed..A Sublime effort against the most Star Studded field assembled ever in the Arc...
+sleeplessinsale Sorry, but that's bullshit. Horses beaten by Frankel have accumulated 60 Group 1s between them. 60 Group 1s for goodness sake. In addition to Excelebration, there's been Canford Cliffs, Cirrus Des Aigles, Dream Ahead, St Nicholas Abbey, Farhh, Nathaniel, Twice Over, Dick Turpin, Immortal Verse, Treasure Beach among others. No discernable quality lol!
One thing that i think puts frankel ahead is that he's a super sire
Sheer class
Prince Khalid Abdullah is adamant that Frankel was better than Dancing Brave . He owned both of them . In fact , when interviewed just after Frankel had beaten Canford Cliffs at Goodwood , he said that Frankel was the best he'd ever had.
That's just his opinion, Dick Earn said Nashwan was the best he ever trained, but many would argue Brigadier Gerard was the best Dick Earn ever trained, time erodes judgment.
Frankel would not have got close to the Brave over a mile and a half, that,s the difference.
Recency bias and going to say that for stud value. Take with a pinch of salt
The great Dancing Brave!
wow wow wow unreal
In an in depth interview some years ago , Pat Eddery said that Dancing Brave was the best horse he had ever ridden , although he added that Derby winner , Golden Fleece , was a horse who had the potential to have become the best of them aĺl , had he not been retired early . However , the day after Frankel won his first Sussex Stakes , Pat Eddery was asked his views on Frankel and how he ranked alongside the likes of Dancing Brave . Eddery said that he ( Frankel ) was a freak , adding that the Sir Henry Cecil colt was undoubtedly the best 3 year old he had ever seen .
What a monster !
Munch?
magestic
U not seen constitution Hill then😊
Oh!.. and by the way I am of the opinion that Nijinsky was the best horse I have ever seen....
Agreed jsilkcut
I've been watching horse racing for 50 years. In that time there have been great horses :-
Mill Reef, Brigadier Gerard, Dancing Brave, Frankel, Sea The Stars, Zarcava, Enable
but IMO for sheer class and poetry in motion it's Nijinsky (to this day I still think he SHOULD have won the 1970 Arc)
@@keithf_ You missed out Seabird, possibly the best of the lot
@@stevo62ful
I was born in 1957. The exploits of two greats like Sea Bird and Ribot are just a bit before my time (as a lover of horse racing), which is why I left them out of my list.
I was watching Hagler v Hearns today, same era, the four kings.
Took me back to this, the king of kings.
Even after all these years still the best I’ve ever seen
best horse best commentar
wont see better
Jesus
Secretariat was the greatest
wow
wow
Second only to seabird for me brilliant horse.
I would also add Mill Reef, Nijinsky, Shergar and brigadier Gerard
Aliou had me first bet at 9 I'm 63 now would put brigadier 3rd like the brave both cud win from 6 furlongs to 12 furlongs, both had gear,s.
@@alioucisse1548
Swinburn rode Shergar..
Said the Brave was the fastest he had seen..
Goid enough for me..
Not enough people have watched Sea Bird win the Derby **on the bridle**
ua-cam.com/video/1pHi8SZFwzw/v-deo.html
@@Molders32 and the arc.
The best turf horse of 1986 was not Dancing brave.
It was the U S horse Manila, he was supreme and brilliantly ridden too in the breeders cup turf.
Seeker 57 Manila was a great horse but never stepped outside his own backyard and I’f he had would never have been in the same grade as Dancing Brave
@@EddieCr . Ok Eddie, it's always nice to hear everyones opinion and that's what makes horses racing what it is.
Although im a brit I have great admiration for the US jockeys,as their riding style really seems to make the horse go.
Thanks for the post, kind regards.
Seeker 57 why did,nt manilla run in the arc ? I,ll tell you why he would,nt have passed the drug test lasix and God know,s what else in system, dancing brave was the first one beat in that race he was over the top simple as that.
Respect your opinion but the Quality of Horse that the Brave beat was far superior..You really think Frankel would have won El gran senors Guineas? ?? Not a Scooby
+Graham Monro You'll excuse me if I take the opinion of the owner of both horses above yours. Prince Khalid clearly think of Frankel as the best he's ever owned (i.e. better than Dancing Brave and Zafonic even though I do love both of these too).
Übermensch Why would the owner of horses know any more than the rest of us. He's not a jockey. The only evidence he's got to go on is his own eyes just like the rest of us so his opinion is only of equal value to anyone else's.
@@ubermensch3179 Well, DB and Zafonic were both dead, whilst Frankel was very much alive and would, in due course, be going to stud, so what would you expect him to say.
i had a 5 grand double, dancing brave and all haste at 5/6, backed dancing brave to pay for the 500 quid tax on my bet... dancing brave returned at "no offers", was not happy.
What a horse frankel,and dancing brave, both horses of a lifetime
Absolutely 💯 but l think see the stars would have beaten both best 🐴 horse l have seen in my lifetime and l have seen Frankel running live in ascot sea the stars could quicken twice in a race that's very rare in any racehorse mick kinane said best horse he ever rode and rode the best horses in the world 🌎
puts on a show
effortless
effortless
effortless
oh dear
magic
Dan
Respect your opinion but the Quality of Horse that the Brave beat was far superior..You really think Frankel would have won El gran senors Guineas? ?? Not a Scooby
+Graham Monro El Gran Senor was the best guineas winner i think ever
Graham Monro Scooby-Doo would not have won El Gran Senor's 2000 guineas but he would have won the Great Dane Derby 🐾
Better the Frankel for sure..An Electric & Instant turn of Foot...
laughable
@@colintipton1740 No way Frankel would have beaten the mighty Dancing Brave. I saw both horses race and Dancing Brave would have beaten Frankel. His acceleration and cruising speed would have eventually caught and overtaken Frankel. I love both horses but Dancing Brave was the more complete racehorse and had more range.
@@londonlady4521 lmao you keep believing that. Strange how people associated with both horse said Frankel was different class which of course he was
Respect your opinion but the Quality of Horse that the Brave beat was far superior..You really think Frankel would have won El gran senors Guineas? ?? Not a Scooby
Mill reef was the best ever
Respect your opinion but the Quality of Horse that the Brave beat was far superior..You really think Frankel would have won El gran senors Guineas? ?? Not a Scooby
Respect your opinion but the Quality of Horse that the Brave beat was far superior..You really think Frankel would have won El gran senors Guineas? ?? Not a Scooby
Respect your opinion but the Quality of Horse that the Brave beat was far superior..You really think Frankel would have won El gran senors Guineas? ?? Not a Scooby
Were the bookies taking bets on this race😀
Anyone know what Dancing Braves sp was?
Going back a bit but if memory serves the winner's 'odds' were stated as "No SP returned". I guess that means stakes were refunded.
@@osricjaffabag8398 Thanks 👍
Pretty sure they were, 1-7 is my recollection. At this point he wasn’t widely regarded as a champion, 2nd Derby and plenty questioned his King George win.
@@marcgardner4712 Cheers👍
6/1
Thanks for posting this. I used to dislike Starkey with a passion. Never mind how he lost the Derby through incompetent riding, I remember him winning on Sackville at Kempton and looking though his legs at the opposition. Clown! Thank goodness he wasn't aboard in the Arc.
I am / was fans of all these end of season champions, ihmo El Gran Senor beat one of the best 2000 Guineas fields since Brigadeer Gerard, and over 10 furlongs would have beaten Dancing brave.
Think the late great Pat Eddery would disagree..
All about opinions though mate..
@@keithwills3790 anything further than 10 furlongs and i would have to favour Dancing Brave over El Gran Senor, but over 8 and 10 furlongs El Gran Senor had electric turn of foot, Dancing brave took several strides to reach top gear. Also what was the best English or Irish horse Dancing Brave beat ? Shahrastani beat a poor field after epsom in Irish Derby and never won again. In guineas El Gran Senor beat Chief Singer...St James Palace and July Cup and Sussex stakes winner, lear Fan was a distant 3rd, went on to win Prix Jacques le malior and very distant 4th Rainbow Quest won the Arc, Green Desert, runner up to Dancing Brave was beaten in irish guineas and st james palace stakes, but won Jukly cup and haydock park sprint, nothing else in guineas won a decent race.
@@pauladams1924
Don't have a problem with anything you say..
But..
I'll go with Pat Eddery..
It flew past 4 Derby winners in the Arc and the champion filly Tryptich..
Swinburn was quoted as saying in the Guineas on Green Desert he had never travelled so fast into the dip on a horse in his life..
And suddenly this thing flew past him with Starkey giving his legendary bark..
El Gra Senor was a marvellous horse!.
But as I say opinions.
Wee story about that horse.
Robert Sangster offered Eddery a share in either Sadler's Wells or El Gran Senor..
Pat chose Senor.
He said he picked the only Gay horse at stud...
What a jockey..RIP🇮🇪☘
@@keithwills3790 i believe when asked, Pat Eddery said the best horse he ever rode was Golden Fleece, the video is on here.
@@pauladams1924
I read his book.
But will look for it..
Thank you..
Frankel would have thumped Dancing Brave, far too much power and acceleration
I disagree. As much as I love Frankel, Dancing Brave's acceleration would have eventually caught and overtaken Frankel. Look at the calibre of horses he beat in 1986 and the style in which he achieved this. In my opinion there's no comparison as Frankel's rivals were not in the same class as Dancing Brave's.
Get a grip